amntrans AMNESTY HEARINGS 2000-08-31 DURBAN 4 https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=54447&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/2000/200831db.htm CHAIRPERSON: Ms Mohamed? MS MOHAMED Thank you Mr Chairman, I call Mr Sifiso Malevu. CHAIRPERSON I didn't hear the name? MS MOHAMED Mr Sifiso Malevu. CHAIRPERSON I can hear you now. What did you say the name was? MS MOHAMED Sifiso Malevu. MS THABETHE Sorry Mr Chair, Mr Nel would like to know whether he could be excused? CHAIRPERSON I am in your hands until when? Mr Nel, do you want to leave Durban? MS THABETHE No, no. MR NEL (Indistinct) CHAIRPERSON Well, can we reassess the situation at about quarter past eleven? Is that convenient for you? Okay. Yes, Malevu, what language would you like to use? MR MALEVU Zulu. SIFISO MALEVU (sworn states) CHAIRPERSON Please be seated. EXAMINATION BY MS MOHAMED Thank you Mr Chairman. Mr Malevu, isn't it correct that you are presently serving a term of imprisonment at Westville prison? MR MALEVU Yes, I am. MS MOHAMED What were you convicted of? MR MALEVU I was sentenced for armed robbery. CHAIRPERSON You were present when Mr Mpanza testified? MR MALEVU Yes, I was present. CHAIRPERSON Were you convicted for the same offences? MR MALEVU Yes, we were. CHAIRPERSON Yes. MS MOHAMED Thank you. What term of imprisonment did you receive? MR MALEVU Eight years imprisonment. MS MOHAMED Mr Malevu, did you make an application for amnesty? MR MALEVU Yes, I did. MS MOHAMED When was that? MR MALEVU In 1997, around May. CHAIRPERSON Now you see, tell us, did you make it on a separate form and did you sign that form, or what is the position? MR MALEVU I used a separate form, which I signed. CHAIRPERSON What did you tell your Attorney then about that? MR MALEVU Please explain which Attorney you are referring to? CHAIRPERSON The one that is presently representing you. MR MALEVU I did explain it to her. CHAIRPERSON Yes, what did you tell her? That you made the application on a separate form, or that you associated yourself with the application of Mpanza and you thought that his application was sufficient to cover you as well? MR MALEVU I filled in my own form. CHAIRPERSON Now, we have two versions here, as to how we are not in possession of a completed form as required by the Act. Are you telling us that in fact the correct version is one, that you in fact completed your own form? MR MALEVU What happened was, I filled my own separate form. CHAIRPERSON Yes, and what did you do with it? MR MALEVU I submitted it to Capt Mkhize. CHAIRPERSON Where did the story about you associating yourself with one application form, come from then? MR MALEVU I do not have knowledge of where that came from. CHAIRPERSON But you heard yesterday how we were arguing about it, did you not approach your Attorney and tell your Attorney exactly what the position was? You were sitting here in the hearing, she made an application at the beginning of this hearing, asking for condonation for you and Shandu to be joined as applicants, despite there being no formal application form, an application before us, and she explained one time, that you believed, you were one of the people who believed that Mpanza's application was in fact an application on behalf of all of you? Admittedly there was a second version, that seems to suggest what you are testifying now, but that gives us problems. We would like you to tell us how this came about. MR MALEVU With regards to our applications, sometime last year, I think in July, Mr Cele and Mrs Mkhize arrived at prison to inform me that Mr Mpanza had made an application for amnesty and they enquired if we were also applicants in the matter, or we were just implicated persons. At that point, I impressed on them that we were applicants, because from what I knew, we were all applicants in that matter. I was not aware that I was implicated, just implicated in the matter. They then explained to me that they could not locate our forms. They said I was then required to make a statement, so that the matter could be processed. CHAIRPERSON Look, all I am asking you is where this other story about a globular application arose from. Isn't that what you told your Attorney? MR MALEVU I think that that must have come from the people who took the statement from me, because I am not aware of it. MR LAX Mr Malevu, have you read the statement of yours, that appears at page 6, 7, 8, 9 and 10 which was signed by you on the 7th of July 1999? If you look at page 10, is that your signature there? Page 10? Is that your signature? MR MALEVU Yes, it is. MR LAX Right. Just bear with me for one second. CHAIRPERSON Page? MR LAX Page 10 he signed. Have you read that statement? MR MALEVU Yes, I read it. MR LAX And is that what you told Mr Cele? You told him the story and he wrote down the statement for you? Is that right? MR MALEVU I would like to explain that Mr Cele was writing the statement in English, but I was conversing with him in Zulu. MR LAX He is a Zulu speaker, isn't he? MR MALEVU Yes. MR LAX So you didn't have any trouble understanding each other? MR MALEVU We did not have a problem communicating. MR LAX Precisely. So you related the story and he put it down in English? MR MALEVU That is correct. He would write it in English and I would be telling him the story in Zulu. MR LAX When he finished writing the story, he asked you to sign it? MR MALEVU After completing writing, he asked me to sign it. He also asked me if he should read it back to me before I sign it, but I opted not for him to do so, for several reasons. MR LAX Why? MR MALEVU I will just explain that. The circumstances under which we live in prison can sometimes make you not to think clearly. For example, at the time at which Mr Cele was supposed to read the statement back to me, I was supposed to go and get my meal. In that way, I entrusted the statement with Mr Cele, for the reason that had I missed my meal at that time, I would not have had anything to eat for that day. The reason why I did not ask Mr Cele to read the statement back to me, was that I trusted him. For example whatever you are noting down now, I believe that it is correct. MR LAX Yes, well, even if you didn't believe it is correct, it is being recorded on the machine and we can always play you back the tapes, but that is irrelevant. What is important here is has he recorded accurately, apart from this business about your application form, has he reported everything else accurately? CHAIRPERSON As you told him? MR LAX Just a yes or no is good enough. CHAIRPERSON Let me ask you this, have you been able to read that document, that statement? MR MALEVU No. Are you referring to today? CHAIRPERSON No, any time after it was ... MR LAX Mr Malevu, I asked you earlier, had you read this document and you said yes, you understand what is in this document, you have read it? MR MALEVU I did read it, but at the time I did not specify when I read it. CHAIRPERSON Were you satisfied when you did eventually read it, that it was properly recorded as you told Mr Cele? MR MALEVU After we received the statements from the Attorney, I complained to her about the portion which pertained to the application. That is why the matter was taken to the High Court. CHAIRPERSON Is that the first time that you read this document? MR MALEVU Yes, it was for the first time. CHAIRPERSON When was that? MR MALEVU It was in March, before we went to the High Court in Pinetown? CHAIRPERSON In March? MR MALEVU Yes. MR LAX My question to you was, apart from that last portion, everything else in this statement is accurately recorded, is that not correct? MR MALEVU I believe so, yes. MR LAX Now, why would Mr Cele go and write some other total nonsense there that you say is not true? He was writing it all in one go? As you were talking, he was writing, isn't that so? MR MALEVU That is so. I do not know. MR LAX And when you had finished talking, he finished writing? Correct? MR MALEVU Please repeat that? MR LAX When you finished talking, he finished writing, isn't that so? MR MALEVU That is correct. MR LAX And then he asked whether he should read it back to you and you said no? MR MALEVU I said "no, I trust you, I can just sign the statement." Since the time they arrived, we had not experienced any problems, so I had no reason to distrust him. MR LAX Yes. You see, he will say he wrote exactly what you told him? MR MALEVU I understand that. MR LAX Can you tell us any reason why he should make up a lie about what you told him? MR MALEVU I am not in a position to explain. MR LAX He had come there to help you, to take a statement that would help you, isn't that so? MR MALEVU That is correct. MR LAX And you understood that? MR MALEVU Yes, I did. MR LAX Carry on. MS MOHAMED Thank you Mr Chairman. Mr Chairman, if I may, this is a convenient spot for me to bring this up, but my instructions at all stages from the applicants were that they filled in separate application forms, and this version about the globular application, came from the affidavits themselves. Thank you Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON Ms Mohamed, I would like to ask you something. Mr Mpanza makes an affidavit to which he attaches the application of the High Court? MS MOHAMED Yes. CHAIRPERSON Yesterday he told us that he doesn't know about the applications of Malevu and Shandu, he wasn't present when they whatever, if they did sign any documents, he wasn't present. That cut out the idea of a globular application? MS MOHAMED yes, Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON But yet he says in his affidavit to the High Court that he is able to confirm their versions, how is that possible? MS MOHAMED On instructions received, Mr Chairman, it seems that they had discussions about the application, after the applications were made. CHAIRPERSON No. These affidavits to the High Court specifically states that that paragraph in the original statement is incorrect and what in fact happened is that this witness and Shandu completed separate amnesty application forms, in terms of the Act, but yet, Mpanza says that he didn't know anything about it, he wasn't present when that occurred. How is he then able to confirm that they completed separate application forms? MS MOHAMED The instructions that I received is that he didn't physically see them filling the forms in, but he ... CHAIRPERSON But then how is he able to confirm it? MS MOHAMED He says that he is aware that they said that to him, and on that basis he confirmed it. MR LAX As a lawyer, you know that that, if you are confirming something, you are confirming what you know? What you saw, that is the purpose of giving evidence? CHAIRPERSON He says "... the facts contained herein falls within my personal knowledge and are true and correct. I confirm that I have read the first and second applicants' affidavits and confirm the correctness thereof in so far as they relate to me." How is he able to do that? MS MOHAMED Mr Chairman, in the first and second applicants' affidavits, they had said that they dealt with this bit about the globular application, and Mr Mpanza merely confirmed the fact that he didn't make the application on behalf of the other two. CHAIRPERSON Carry on. MS MOHAMED Thank you Mr Chairman. Mr Malevu, which incident did you apply for amnesty for? MR MALEVU About the incident of the robbery that took place in Empangeni at Avocas Wholesalers. MS MOHAMED Now, you have earlier said that you have heard the evidence of Mr Mpanza, can you tell us how it is that you became involved in this incident? MR MALEVU I was contacted by Mr Mpanza about the situation that he found himself in at the time. MS MOHAMED What situation was this? MR MALEVU Firstly, the situation at Mkababa, about the violence that was going on there. That was the first incident. The second incident regarded Empangeni. That is the harassment and attack of comrades in Empangeni. MS MOHAMED Why did ... MR LAX Just before you go on. You say he contacted you and he told you about these two things? MR MALEVU That is correct. MR LAX At the same time, on the same occasion? MR MALEVU On different occasions. MR LAX What did he want from you? MR MALEVU Mr Mpanza required my assistance in helping him attend to these problems. CHAIRPERSON What did he tell you, what did he need your assistance for? MR MALEVU The most important issue was the question of acquiring firearms to assist the people who needed them, the people who were being attacked by the IFP at Mkababa, that was the first instance. That is the sort of assistance he required from me. He wanted to know what idea could I come up with to help attend to this matter. MR LAX What did you do about it? MR MALEVU We discussed the matter on several occasions, trying to identify places where, from which we could obtain firearms, places such as police stations. We would go and do some reconnaissance at those places. The people that we could meet and make progress with, were the people who sold firearms, however we did not have money to purchase them. CHAIRPERSON Why didn't you go and rob them? INTERPRETER Please repeat the question. CHAIRPERSON Why didn't you go and rob them of their arms, why didn't you break into a shop where they sold arms and ammunition? That would have solved your problem immediately? MR MALEVU We felt that was unsafe. We did consider it. CHAIRPERSON And yet it was safe to go and rob a wholesalers in broad daylight, early in the morning, eight o'clock? MR MALEVU Yes, it was, although it was not a hundred percent safe, however, we felt it was safer than the places we have referred to. MR LAX What else did you do? MR MALEVU Whilst we were still busy trying to solve the issue of the people of Mkababa, I think after three or four weeks, a report was brought by somebody from Empangeni. I was not aware who that person was who brought the report to comrade Ziba. That person explained their situation in eSikhaweni, that things were not going well. MR LAX You misunderstood my question, I want to know what other steps you took to obtain firearms? You have spoken about discussing robbing firearm shops, you have spoken about discussing police stations, you have discussed the issue of maybe buying firearms, but having no money, what other steps did you take, or is that everything? MR MALEVU We abandoned the idea of robbing gun shops and police stations. We felt that was unsafe, so we abandoned that idea. A more suitable idea that crossed our minds was ... MR LAX You didn't take any other steps? MR MALEVU We did not take any other steps about robbing police stations and gun shops. CHAIRPERSON Any other steps about acquiring firearms, that is the question? MR MALEVU Yes, there were some. MR LAX I have asked you about five times now to tell us what other steps you took, and you haven't told us. CHAIRPERSON Is it correct there were not other steps that you discussed? MR MALEVU The steps that we took, or the step that we took, was to go rob money so that we could buy those firearms. MR LAX Why didn't you take the most obvious step, the one that Mpanza says you took, which was to find, obtain the assistance of other comrades, find out about their DLBs, check what weapons they might have? He says you did that? You didn't do it? MR MALEVU We did do that. MR LAX Why didn't you tell us that you did it, before I put this question to you in this way? I gave you enough chance to tell us what other steps you took? MR MALEVU I thought you were asking about what we intended doing that was close to what I had explained before, that was robbing of gun shops and police stations. MR LAX Carry on, your record will speak for itself. MS MOHAMED Thank you. MR MALEVU Although I am not absolutely certain of Mr Mpanza's movements of where he went, because we were not always together, however, there were people that I approached and asked, although I knew that it would not be easy to obtain firearms that would be taken to another place on a permanent basis. Whoever had a firearm at the time, did not want to part with it, because the situation was not okay, so that if you borrowed a firearm from somebody, you would have to return it after use. It would have been difficult to obtain firearms from other people to take them to Mkababa permanently, because there were problems around the area that we were in, itself, and the firearms were not many. MS MOHAMED Mr Malevu, when you were having all these difficulties about obtaining firearms, what did you eventually decide to do to obtain your firearms? MR MALEVU I would explain that whilst we were still faced with the problem of acquiring firearms for the Mkababa area. I think after about three or four weeks a request came from Empangeni. Mr Mpanza then sent me to Empangeni to attend to that request. It concerned the killing of ANC comrades. CHAIRPERSON And? MR MALEVU Mr Mpanza then organised that I should go to Empangeni to meet a certain gentleman. I think his name was Mayibuya. We contacted him by telephone prior to my departure for Ngoya, I did not know this person, but he was known to comrade Mpanza. We introduced ourselves over the phone and he explained what car he was driving, so I left after arranging a date over the telephone. I left for Empangeni, where I met comrade Mayibuya. Comrade Mayibuya took me to ESIkhaweni township. We remained there for a short while. MS MOHAMED Mr Malevu, what was the purpose of your going to Empangeni and meet Mr Mayibuya? CHAIRPERSON Mr Malevu, you heard Mr Mpanza testify about what happened and how this thing was planned, correct? MR MALEVU Yes, I did hear him. CHAIRPERSON Do you confirm what he says as far as it affects you? MR MALEVU Yes, I do. CHAIRPERSON Is there anything you want to change or alter about what he said about you or do you agree with what he said? MR MALEVU From what I heard, I agree with what he said. CHAIRPERSON Yes, thank you. Is there any more questions, Ms Mohamed? MS MOHAMED No, Mr Chair, thank you. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS MOHAMED CHAIRPERSON Mr Panday? CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR PANDAY Thank you Mr Chairman. Mr Malevu, was the situation in Mkababa urgent to get firearms? MR MALEVU It was urgent. MR PANDAY Why did you not consider robbing a bank to get these firearms, to get the cash? MR MALEVU Normally banks are situated in public areas where most people could be found. We were trying to avoid a place which were likely to expose members of the public to a danger. MR PANDAY But wasn't a wholesaler situated next to the public, a place where the public was? MR MALEVU In that area, or that place, is not situated near a public area, there were not many people around there, and even then, the people would be moving around there at certain times. The place would be busy at certain times. MR PANDAY Did you see who took the weapon of the security guard? MR MALEVU No, I did not. MR PANDAY Okay, thank you. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR PANDAY CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS THABETHE Thank you Mr Chair. Mr Malevu, I would like to inform you that I spoke to Ms Mkhize yesterday and she confirmed to me that the statement that you and Ziba and Mzwake Shandu gathered and applied for amnesty unilaterally, in one application form, which was signed by Ziba, it is what you have told her. I just want to put that to you. She is going to come today and give evidence to that effect, what is your response to that? MR MALEVU There is not much I can say about what Mrs Mkhize alleges. MS THABETHE What I want to know from you is, do you still insist that you never told her that you signed one application form, and through that you had intended to apply by signing one application form? I want you to tell me whether you deny that, or whether you agree with that? MR MALEVU I deny having made that statement. MS THABETHE Mr Chair, I would like to speak to Mr Cele quickly, because he is the one who took the statement as well, with Mkhize. He is right next to me. CHAIRPERSON How long is that going to take? MS THABETHE He is right next to me, I just want to speak to him quickly. Thank you Mr Chair, I am ready to proceed with my cross-examination. Mr Malevu, my instructions from Mr Joshua Cele, who is sitting next to me, and he will give evidence to that effect is that he did give you the statement and you read through it. You even requested for a copy, which he faxed to you later on, and it is going to be his evidence that you did say to him that you completed one application form with Shandu and Malevu, sorry and Mpanza, and Ziba Mpanza was the one who signed the application form? What is your response? MR MALEVU I think there was a misunderstanding. MS THABETHE What do you mean? You were both speaking Zulu? MR MALEVU Yes. MS THABETHE And both of you, that is Mr Shandu and yourself, said the same thing, that you completed one application form and by which you had intended to apply? Where was the misunderstanding, how did you misunderstand each other? MR MALEVU There were so many questions that he posed, that is Mr Cele and Mrs Mkhize. I think that because of the situation of the prisons, those are the factors that contributed to such problems. I did not say that we forwarded one application form. All I want to explain is this, the question that was posed to us was that, it was about me filling in the form, and in my form I stated Mr Mpanza, Shandu, Nmezela and Tekozani and even in Mpanza's form, he told me about the information in his form, I think those are such questions that led to some confusion. MR LAX Can I just ask something? Did you request a copy of this statement? MR MALEVU Yes, I did that. MR LAX And you received a faxed copy as he says you got? MR MALEVU I met with Mr Cele at the (indistinct), but I did not receive the copy. I explained to him and he told me that they couldn't send the copies. They also had a problem, but I never received that copy. MS THABETHE Thank you Mr Chair. Mr Joshua Cele will give evidence. Thank you. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS THABETHE MS MOHAMED Thank you Mr Chair, I have no further questions. NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MS MOHAMED CHAIRPERSON Thank you, you are excused. WITNESS EXCUSES MS MOHAMED Mr Chairman, I am ready to call Mr Shandu, I am not sure if you want to take the short adjournment now. CHAIRPERSON Carry on. MS MOHAMED Thank you. I call Mr Shandu. CHAIRPERSON Mr Shandu, what language would you prefer to use? MR SHANDU Zulu. MZWAKE SHANDU (sworn states) CHAIRPERSON Please be seated. EXAMINATION BY MS MOHAMED Ms Shandu, were you convicted for the same incident that Mr Mpanza and Mr Malevu were convicted of? MR SHANDU Yes, that is correct. MS MOHAMED Did you make an application for amnesty? MR SHANDU Yes, that is correct. MS MOHAMED Which incident did you apply for amnesty for? MR SHANDU The incident that took place in Empangeni in the wholesaler there, the robbery. MS MOHAMED When did you make your application for amnesty? MR SHANDU I cannot remember the date, but I think it was early 1997. MS MOHAMED Where were you, sorry which prison were you being detained at this time? MR SHANDU I was in Waterval prison, Utrecht. MS MOHAMED How did you make an application for amnesty? MR SHANDU Will you please explain your question further, what do you mean? MS MOHAMED You said that you did make an application for amnesty? MR SHANDU Yes. MR LAX What steps did you take to make an application for amnesty? MR SHANDU In prison, we were being advised on how to forward the amnesty application. There was a place where one would go there and fill in the forms, and I was amongst those people who did so. MS MOHAMED After you filled in your form, what did you do to that form? MR SHANDU I handed it to a member who was dealing with such processes in prison. MS MOHAMED Mr Shandu, I am going to refer you to the bundle of documents before you. There is an affidavit that appears in this bundle, the hand-written affidavit appears from page 13 to 16. In paragraph 2 of this affidavit, there is a sentence here which reads - "... although I did not sign any form, I remember that we included our names and Ziba had to sign the application form." Can you explain this, because there is clearly now a different version on these affidavits? CHAIRPERSON Well, before you answer that question, were you and Malevu together when you spoke to Mr Cele or were you separate? MR SHANDU We were not together, I was alone in Waterval and Malevu was already in Westville at the time, and I did not speak directly to Mr Cele. He was only introduced to me. It was only Sheila Mkhize that I spoke to. MR LAX Is that your signature on page 16? MR SHANDU Yes. MR LAX Can you see that it is dated the 8th of July 1999? MR SHANDU Yes. MR LAX That is the day after Mr Malevu signed his affidavit? MR SHANDU I am not sure whether that is a question or a statement. MR LAX Can you see that it is a day afterwards, he signed on the 7th, you signed on the 8th? MR SHANDU Where is Mr Malevu's signature, on what page? MR LAX Page 10. Sorry, I should have indicated that to you. If you look at the bottom of page 10, you will see that. Do you see where he signed, your lawyer is pointing it out to you? MR SHANDU Yes, I can see that. MR LAX Do you also notice that the same person attested both statements and that was Mr Cele? MR SHANDU That is possible that it is the signature of the same person. MR LAX Yes. So Mr Cele must have spoken to you and said "is this affidavit the truth, do you swear that it is the truth" and you would have taken the oath and he would have signed it with you, is that right? MR SHANDU No, that is not true. CHAIRPERSON How did it happen that you signed the statement? MR SHANDU I sent this statement after it was compiled, by Sheila, meaning Mr Joshua Cele and Sheila Mkhize came when I was sick there in prison, I didn't get time to read the whole statement. I was just satisfied that he had written the statement the right way and decided to sign. I even explained to them about my health condition, as a sick person. MR LAX Can I ask you a question, you see next to your signature there is a date, 8 July 1999, did you write that - 1999-07-08? MR SHANDU I do not remember writing the date, I only remember signing the document. MR LAX Is that your handwriting, is that how you write? MR SHANDU It is very difficult to identify the handwriting, when it is written in figures, but if it was just a handwriting, words, not figures, it would be easy for me to identify. MR LAX How did Ms Mkhize take the statement from you? Did she ask you questions and then you gave her answers and then you wrote them down? MR SHANDU I was sometimes asked questions and sometimes I would be expected to explain. MR LAX But basically she wrote down what you told her? Is that right? MR SHANDU I was not looking at her while she was writing, I cannot confirm that she was actually writing exactly what I was telling her. CHAIRPERSON Ms Thabethe, what is the position about the other matter? Have we got any response from the search? MS THABETHE No Mr Chair, I haven't had any indications from Mr Madlala, sorry from Mr Mpanza, who has gone to follow it up. CHAIRPERSON You haven't received any response? MS THABETHE I haven't had any response. MR LAX Your phone has been off in the meantime? MS THABETHE But Molly would have told me what was happening. MR LAX Okay. CHAIRPERSON Can you in the meantime see if Molly can contact him and find out what the position is? MS THABETHE Okay, Mr Chair. MR LAX Just to finish off that issue, Mr Shandu, did you read this statement when it was finished, being written? MR SHANDU No. MR LAX Did she read it to you? MR SHANDU I cannot remember whether she did that, but as I explained initially, I was not as patient to listen to everything, even if she did that, because I was very sick. After compiling the statement and I trusted her, I signed the statement. CHAIRPERSON You were a policeman prior to that, is that not so? MR SHANDU Yes, that is correct. CHAIRPERSON What rank did you hold? MR SHANDU I was a constable. CHAIRPERSON How long were you a policeman? MR SHANDU For five years at the time. CHAIRPERSON So you were acquainted with the procedures as to making statements and the rights of people making statements and so forth, not so? MR SHANDU Yes, that is correct. CHAIRPERSON And you were quite acquainted with the importance of making statements? Not so, and the accuracy thereof? Correct? MR SHANDU Yes, that is correct. CHAIRPERSON How is it that you paid such a reduced attention to a statement that you were making, which would possibly secure your release from prison? Why is that? MR SHANDU If you are seriously ill as I was at that time, it is possible that such things can happen, because a person in my condition, even if I was supposed to appear in court for a certain offence, that would be postponed. MR LAX Mr Shandu, you knew that there was a problem with your application, isn't that so? Because they came to see you as perpetrators, not as applicants? Isn't that so? As implicated parties and that is when you found out that there was something wrong with your application? CHAIRPERSON Or that you did not make an application? MR LAX Isn't that so? MR SHANDU Will you please repeat the question? MR LAX I understood him, I will try to put it as simply as possible, the reason these policemen and investigators from the Truth Commission had come to see you, was because it wasn't clear whether you were an applicant or an implicated party. You must have therefore realised as a consequence of that, how important getting the right facts down now, were going to be as to how the Truth Commission would deal with your application? Isn't that so? MR SHANDU Yes, that is correct. MR LAX And yet you, an experienced policeman, knowing what the meaning of affidavits are, didn't bother to check it? The only explanation that you can give us is that you were sick? MR SHANDU Yes, I was very sick, and I had no reason not to trust them. MR LAX Do you think they had any reason to put words in your mouth that were not true? MR SHANDU I do not know, but that happened. CHAIRPERSON You know, it is strange that on two different occasions a similar excuse, if I may call it that, in two different places, is tendered. It is such an unusual excuse, it is difficult to accept that it was the truth, or that you are telling us the truth now. It is hardly something to have been made up by the writer of that document, unless he received it from the deponents of that statements? You see, from what you tell us, you didn't know what Malevu had told him in respect of this mess up? Is that not so? MR SHANDU Will you please repeat, what about Malevu? CHAIRPERSON When you made a statement, I think it was Waterval, where was it, where were you? MR LAX They were both at Westville when these two statements were taken. CHAIRPERSON Where were you when you made the statement? At which prison? MR LAX In July 1999, where were you, at which prison? MR SHANDU Waterval prison. CHAIRPERSON And he was at Westville? MR SHANDU Yes. CHAIRPERSON And he made his statement the day before you did? Correct? We showed you that? Correct? MR SHANDU Yes. CHAIRPERSON And you didn't know that he had made a statement the previous day, did you? MR SHANDU No, I only got that from Sheila and Cele. CHAIRPERSON You didn't know what he said in his statement? Correct? MR SHANDU Yes, I did not know what was in his statement. MR LAX With regard to the rest of this matter, you have heard the evidence of both Mr Malevu and Mr Mpanza, do you confirm that as far as it relates to you, that it is true? MR SHANDU I do remember some of the things, I think that is true, but the testimony, more especially Mr Ziba's testimony took a long time. I cannot remember everything he said in his testimony. MR LAX Did you know Ziba before you went on this operation? MR SHANDU Yes. We were not friends, we were not as close, but I used to know him. MR LAX How was it that you just ended up going on this operation? MR SHANDU At first Malevu came, a person that I used to know very well, and a person who was a neighbour, who were friends, and he came to me to tell me, he actually asked for assistance, weapons, firearms and ammunition. MR LAX Why would you have weapons and ammunition and firearms? MR SHANDU In his mind, as a person who was working in the Police Force, he thought that he might get some assistance. CHAIRPERSON Were you a member of a political organisation at that stage, at that time? MR SHANDU I was just a supporter. I was not a card carrying member. CHAIRPERSON You were a policeman, though? MR SHANDU Yes, as there were other white policemen, who were also supporters in some political organisations. MR LAX Where were you stationed? MR SHANDU I started in Durban North and then I was transferred to Umhlanga Rocks. The incident took place while I was working at Umhlanga Rocks. MR LAX What was your role in going on this mission? MR SHANDU While we were ready to leave for Empangeni, they told me that they did not have enough ammunition for the 9mm firearm. I had some that I could give to them and then we left for Empangeni, driving in a car. MR LAX What was your role on the mission, just to supply ammunition? MR SHANDU I was just one of them, and implicated as them in the operation, from the time they approached me, because I was going to play a role when we arrived at the scene. CHAIRPERSON Tell me, you knew that these people were looking for arms, was it explained to you that "look, it is for political reasons"? MR SHANDU Yes, I was briefed because they even told me that the money that they were going to get there, was going to be used for a certain purpose. CHAIRPERSON You say you are a policeman at Umhlanga Rocks police station? Isn't that so? MR SHANDU Yes, that is correct. CHAIRPERSON I just want you to confirm because I have never worked in a police station, but I understand each police station has a gunnery, or what they refer to as a gunnery, where they put all the guns or an armoury, something like that, is that correct? MR SHANDU Yes, that is correct, but it is not all the police stations that are equipped with that facility. CHAIRPERSON Where did you people in Umhlanga Rocks police station keep your firearms? MR SHANDU It is a very small police station. CHAIRPERSON Where in the police station did you keep your firearms, I did not ask what the size of the police station was? MR SHANDU There was a safe and the only firearms are there for guard shooting, they were not sufficient for the operation that they were going to do. CHAIRPERSON How many arms were in that safe? MR SHANDU I can remember two, HMC and a shotgun. CHAIRPERSON Where did you, where were you employed before Umhlanga Rocks, did you say? MR SHANDU I was in Durban North. CHAIRPERSON Was there an armoury there? MR SHANDU Yes, there was, though I did not have access to it. CHAIRPERSON We are not talking about access to it, why do you talk about that? Anyway, how many guns were there? MR SHANDU I never counted them. CHAIRPERSON Were there many, there must have been many then, if you cannot say how many? Correct? MR SHANDU Yes, there were many. CHAIRPERSON And you knew the inns and outs of the police station in Durban North, because you worked there, correct? MR SHANDU Would you please repeat your question, I did not understand? CHAIRPERSON You knew what the rosters were and you knew your way around the police station in Durban North, not so? You worked there? MR SHANDU I did not know everything, I only know things that were related to my duties. CHAIRPERSON Yes, but you knew there were many guns there, and you knew where it was kept in the armoury there, correct? MR SHANDU Yes, that is correct. CHAIRPERSON As being employed by the South African Police Services, although it was at Umhlanga Rocks, you were able to find out what the rosters were at Durban North, not so? A few questions here and there, you would know who is on duty and who is not on duty, not so, and when? Correct? MR SHANDU Yes, that is correct. CHAIRPERSON And there would be times that there would only be two people on duty in the charge office, at any given time, especially at night, not so? Correct? MR SHANDU Yes, that is correct. CHAIRPERSON What stopped you and your colleagues from going there to the Durban North police station one night, when only two policemen were on duty, to go and rob that police station of all the guns in the armoury? That would have sorted out the problem that you people faced? MR SHANDU Two policemen who were on night duty, where the police who would be in the charge office, I am not talking about the police who would be patrolling with a van. There was, there has never been a shift with only two people. CHAIRPERSON There would be two policemen to defend the police station in Durban North, at night, you people were four? Is that not so, or five in fact, maybe? Why was it so impossible to overcome these policemen, when you knew how to go about your way there in the police station, you worked there? MR SHANDU Even if we were then, that was not going to render any help, because they came to the armoury, I didn't even know where it was kept, up until my last day at that particular police station. CHAIRPERSON Did you consider that plan? MR SHANDU No, not at all. CHAIRPERSON But shouldn't the police on duty have access to the armoury because you never know what happens during the night, police sometimes need the arms? Is that not true? So the key must have been in the vicinity of that charge office? MR SHANDU No, that is not true. CHAIRPERSON So if there was a problem there that the police required firearms, then the Durban North police would not have been able to help, they would be rendered inefficient? Is that what you are saying? MR SHANDU There would be an R1 that was kept in a safe in the charge office, and one big rifle, but not other key to the armoury. CHAIRPERSON Yes, have you got any more questions, Ms Mohamed? MS MOHAMED No Mr Chairman. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS MOHAMED MR LAX Chair, I've just got one question. What portion were you supposed to receive, what portion of money were you supposed to receive, or is just another mistake that was made in your affidavit? MR SHANDU The portion that I was talking about, the money that was to be acquired, it doesn't specify, it was not specified, but according to my agreement with Ziba Mpanza, it was stated that as a person that was employed, I incurred some expenses during the preparations of this trip, and as a person who had children, I had to, on my way back, I had to be given that money and replace it wherever it came from, it was not that they were thanking me for the role that I had played, or as being played a role in the operation. CHAIRPERSON If that was not agreed to, would you have participated in the escapade? MR SHANDU Besides the agreement, I was already part of this operation. CHAIRPERSON Now tell me, when you went on this robbery expedition, you say that you knew you had to replace certain moneys, disbursements, why are you unable to tell us what that amount is, because you would have already disbursed it on your way to Empangeni? You must have known how much you must collect, why are you unable to tell us? MR SHANDU Maybe I did not understand the question, I did not think that the question is about how much was the money that was going to be allocated to me, I apologise for that. CHAIRPERSON Well, the question was very simple, if I remember it correctly. This portion you were supposed to receive, how much was that, that was the question, wasn't it? MR SHANDU The money that was supposed to be given to me to pay for the expenses, was R1,000. CHAIRPERSON Why do we struggle to get that answer? MR SHANDU I thought, I did not understand the question. CHAIRPERSON Yes? MS MOHAMED I have nothing further, Mr Chairman. CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR PANDAY Mr Shandu, it is correct that the R1,000 was for your leaving work for a couple of days, and taking moneys home, for your children, is that correct? MR SHANDU I did not understand your question, sir. MR PANDAY When you said the R1 000-00 was for expenses, what expenses did you incur? MR SHANDU I think that even comrade Mpanza made mention of the fact that as we were going there, we were expecting, we knew in advance that a shoot-out would take place, but as Africans, we normally use special herbs and ntelezi before taking such trips. I am the one who had money to pay for such facilities, because the comrades that were with me, most of them were unemployed. MR PANDAY Now earlier on when you gave your evidence, you didn't mention anything about ntelezi or the herbs, it is only now that I bring it to your attention to clarify expenses. I recall you mentioned about taking leave from work and the days you were going to miss. MR LAX Paying money for your children? MR PANDAY Paying money for your children, that is why I mentioned your children, you never mentioned herbs? MR SHANDU It is because no one asked me specifically about the money, the purpose that the money was going to be used for. This is the first time that this question is being posed. MR PANDAY No, you are now lying, because the Chairman asked you what were the expenses, what was the money for, you said expenses and then you detailed the expenses. You had a chance to talk about ntelezi? MR SHANDU If you say I am telling lies, I take it that is what is on your mind, but I am telling you exactly what happened there, because I was the one who was there, I am the one who was there. MR PANDAY Now another curious thing, you mentioned that you joined the Police Force in 1986, to also supply weapons and firearms. Did you apply for amnesty for these incidents? MR SHANDU What incident are you talking about? MR PANDAY Right, okay, in paragraph 3 on page 11, you say the following "... in 1986 I joined the Police Force." You can listen to me, I am reading the paragraph, it is being interpreted to you. "... in 1986 I joined the Police Force and I should supply them with firearms and rounds of ammunition, taken from exhibits." Are you talking about Ziba and Malevu that you should supply firearms? MR SHANDU This is one of the mistakes, no one will ever join the Police Force with the intention of supplying firearms, no one accepts that in the Police Force. I would never make that mistake, joining the Police Force with the aim of supplying the firearms. MR PANDAY But you say this in your affidavit, you did not dispute this part of the affidavit? You only disputed the part where the filling of the application form was concerned? MR SHANDU No person who is sane, who can join the Police Force and supply the firearms in the Police Force, that will never happen. MR PANDAY Okay, you supplied them with rounds of ammunition? CHAIRPERSON Let me put it to you, no sound policeman would embark on a robbery, the public expects but you did it? Don't come and tell us about the soundness of police minds, answer the question. MR PANDAY My question to you again is that, did you supply them with rounds of ammunition? MR SHANDU When I get them, I used to give that to them, but that is not something that I used to have with me all the time, but I would get it and then I would give it to them. MR PANDAY So the truth is that before this incident, you used to supply them with rounds of ammunition? MR SHANDU Even though we are not talking about the same people, but it happened, it could have happened that any comrade from the ANC, I would assist that particular comrade with such ammunition. MR PANDAY Did you get this ammunition whilst employed at the Police? MR SHANDU We would get, I would get it when I am going to the shooting range. MR PANDAY Right, so as a policeman, you should supply ammunition, that is correct now? MR SHANDU I do not understand the question now. CHAIRPERSON Tell me, answer this question before you clarify the other one, this bits of ammunition that you used to give to any comrade as you say, were they, was that ammunition Police issue? Did you get it from the Police? MR SHANDU Yes, that is correct. CHAIRPERSON And did you get paid for it? MR SHANDU I would get it when I am going to the shooting range, but I did not understand your question. CHAIRPERSON Did you get paid for it when you gave it to the comrades? MR SHANDU Who would be paying me? CHAIRPERSON The comrades who would receive the ammunition? MR SHANDU I was not expecting any money from them, because they had nothing. CHAIRPERSON Did you get paid at times when they did have money? MR SHANDU No, it never happened. CHAIRPERSON So would you expect to be paid if they had money? You didn't expect it because they didn't have money, however, what about the reverse? Weren't you selling ammunition and arms to these people? MR SHANDU I was not selling it to them, and I was not even expecting money. CHAIRPERSON Now how did you explain the missing ammunition to your superiors when you give it away? MR SHANDU I was never questioned. CHAIRPERSON Well, how did you plan to explain? MR SHANDU That was not possible, because if you are going to the shooting range, you are given a certain amount of ammunition, and it is up to you to use all of them or some of them. You are not expected to bring them back, the ones that were unused, because in the (indistinct) the superiors would think that you had used all the ammunition. CHAIRPERSON That ammunition was marked, isn't it? Correct? All SAPS ammunition is specially marked, not so, and it used to be at that time? Is that correct? MR SHANDU I never noticed any marks on the ammunition. CHAIRPERSON So you didn't know whether any cartridges could be identified as coming from the gun of a policeman? You didn't know that? MR LAX Perhaps we should take the adjournment. COMMITTEE ADJOURNS MZWAKE SHANDU (s.u.o.) CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR PANDAY (continued) Mr Shandu, finally my question to you is that for the incidents where you supplied ammunition and weapons, have you applied for amnesty for those incidents? I am not talking about the robbery at Avocas Wholesalers, I am talking about paragraph 3, you mentioned you supplied rounds of ammunition and firearms, have you applied for amnesty for those incidents? MR SHANDU No, I never supplied any firearms. MR PANDAY The rounds of ammunition that you supplied, did you apply for ammunition for those incidents? MR SHANDU No, I did not. MR PANDAY Any particular reason why you did not apply for amnesty? MR SHANDU I thought that I was going to get the opportunity when testifying on this incident, I did - it is something that I have mentioned in this same application that I am here about. MR PANDAY Did you mention to whom you supplied the ammunition, in the application that you talk about? MR SHANDU No, I cannot remember if I made mention of that, but if it is necessary for me to do so, I can do that. MR PANDAY Do you know the names of the people you supplied ammunition to? MR SHANDU The one that I referred to in this application, are you talking about that? MR PANDAY I am talking about paragraph 3, where you talk about supplying ammunition. MR SHANDU Can I please be given a moment to check on that? CHAIRPERSON Mr Panday, does it matter to whom he - he has admitted that he has sold to other people? MR PANDAY Okay, Mr Shandu, finally, do you know exactly what was the operation to take place in Avocas Wholesalers for? MR SHANDU Yes, I had knowledge about that. MR PANDAY What was the operation about? Very briefly tell us, what do you know the operation was about? MR SHANDU All I know is that the money that was going to be found there, was to be given to the comrades of Mkababa, to assist them in buying firearms, secondly, Steyn who was working for the Murder and Robbery in Empangeni, was going to be killed. MR PANDAY Okay, thank you. Nothing further. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR PANDAY CHAIRPERSON Ms Thabethe? CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS THABETHE Mr Shandu, I spoke to Sheila Mkhize telephonically and she is on her way to this hearing. It is going to be her evidence that all the facts written in the statement, on page 11 or page 13 to 16, is information that you gave to her. Would you like to respond to that? MR SHANDU What she had written here, I cannot dispute that she is not the person who wrote it, but some of the things that are written here, I know nothing about. MS THABETHE Just for the record, which paragraphs don't you know anything about so that Sheila can respond to those paragraphs accordingly? MR LAX Just before you do, are you saying someone else wrote the statement and not Ms Mkhize? MR SHANDU What I can say in this affidavit, paragraph 2 I know nothing about that, because I wouldn't write, I wouldn't compile an application form with Malevu and Ziba, while I was in Waterval and they were in Westville. I think you should have asked herself a question how did that happen, because I was in Waterval and the other two were at Westville prison. MS THABETHE What else don't you agree with in this statement? MR SHANDU Paragraph 3, there is something written there that I joined the Police Force to supply them with firearms and ammunition rounds, to me it sounds more like I was a person who joined the Police Force specifically to supply firearms and ammunition, and that is not true. MR LAX It does not say that at all. It says "... in 1986 I joined the Police Force, and I should supply him with firearms and rounds." In other words, while you were a member of the Police Force, you used to supply him and I am assuming that him is Sifiso Malevu, who is in the first sentence? MR PANDAY Mr Chairman, the term is then. MR LAX If you look at the original, you can see it is him, not them. It might have been a typing error, but it is clear that it is an "i" with a dot on it and everything. Whoever translated it, obviously made a mistake, that is why I am reading it from - and therefore it makes sense because he is talking about Sifiso Malevu being his friend, and then he talks about then he joined the Police Force, and then he used to supply him? Did you not supply Sifiso Malevu with firearms and rounds of ammunition? MR SHANDU No, I never supplied him with firearms. MR LAX But you did supply him with rounds of ammunition? MR SHANDU During the preparations for this operation that was to take place at Empangeni, secondly it is possible that because of one, because I did not write the statement, I did not understand what is being said in paragraph 3, I did not understand that paragraph. To me, I cannot reconcile the two, joining the Police Force and supplying the firearms and ammunition. If one can explain briefly to me the gist of this paragraph. MR LAX We have explained it to you, I have read it to you, it is very simple. The gist of it is that you don't agree. What else don't you agree with in this statement? While we are at it, did you take rounds from exhibits at all? MR SHANDU What exhibit? MR LAX You are a policeman, for goodness sake, you know what an exhibit is? MR SHANDU No. CHAIRPERSON Where did this come from, is it something that the recorder made up? Is that what you are suggesting, that this is untrue and it is in this statement as a result of a fantasy or fabrication of someone else? MR SHANDU I don't know, but as far as I am concerned, what I have explained to you is what happened, that is how I used to get the ammunition. CHAIRPERSON It has to be a fabrication then, someone is trying to blame you for something that is not true, and implicating you in something that you know nothing of? It has to be a lie, if what you are telling us, is the truth? Isn't it, it is not a question that you don't know, someone put this into a statement that you signed, you say it is not true, you don't know anything about it, so it must have been inserted and fabricated by somebody else, not so? MR SHANDU I do not know that, but as far as I am concerned, I never took any ammunition from the exhibits. CHAIRPERSON And you never told anybody that you did so? MR SHANDU No. MR LAX What else is wrong in this statement? If at all? MR SHANDU For now I have spotted that as a mistake. MS THABETHE Okay. On paragraph 5 of your statement you say that your presence, you say Ziba and Sifiso approached you, requesting for more arms and for your company for an operation that was to be executed at Empangeni, correct and then you say "... my presence would assist them in escaping from being searched by the police or even arrest, because as a policeman, I would produce my appointment certificate when necessary." That is correct? MR SHANDU Yes, that is true. Ziba and Malevu came to me, but before that, Malevu came alone. MS THABETHE That is fine, but the gist of the matter is that you assisted them, because you were a policeman, and because when they escaped, they wouldn't be searched by the police because you were there, that is the gist of the matter, isn't it? MR SHANDU I was doing the job that I was supposed to do, I was not helping them. MS THABETHE Thank you. JUDGE POTGIETER You have put a fair summary of that to him. MS THABETHE Sorry? JUDGE POTGIETER I say you have put a fair summary of that to him, perhaps you should carry on with something else? MS THABETHE Yes. Actually I have no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS THABETHE MS MOHAMED Mr Chairman, I have no further questions. NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MS MOHAMED CHAIRPERSON Thank you, you are excused. WITNESS EXCUSED MS MOHAMED Mr Chairman, I call Lindani Nteani. CHAIRPERSON Who? MS MOHAMED Mr Lindani Nteani. CHAIRPERSON Mr Nteani, which language would you prefer to use? MR NTEANI I would like to use Zulu. LINDANI NTEANI (sworn states) CHAIRPERSON Please be seated. EXAMINATION BY MS MOHAMED Thank you Mr Chairman. Mr Nteani, during 1991, were you a member of any political party? MR NTEANI Yes. MS MOHAMED Which party was this? MR NTEANI I was an ANC member. MS MOHAMED Did you occupy any specific rank within the organisation? MR NTEANI Yes. MS MOHAMED What rank was this? MR NTEANI I was the Chairperson of the ANC Youth League. MS MOHAMED For which area? MR NTEANI In Mkababa, the Danganga Branch. MS MOHAMED For how long did you hold this rank? MR NTEANI Prior to being the Chairperson of the Youth League, I was President of the Gangani Youth Congress, that was prior to the unbanning of the ANC. When the ANC was unbanned, I was then appointed Chairperson of the Youth League. MS MOHAMED Mr Nteani, you were present in court when Mr Mpanza gave his evidence, isn't that correct? MR NTEANI Please repeat that question. MS MOHAMED Let me just rephrase this. Do you know the applicant, Mr Mpanza? MR NTEANI Yes, I know him. MS MOHAMED How do you know him? MR NTEANI I first knew him around the 1980's, when we were both members of the kwaMashu Youth League where I used to reside. That was prior to his departure for exile. We later met in 1989, when I was in Angola, where I underwent a crash course. At that time, he was an instructor at that base in Bangwe in Angola. MS MOHAMED When did you return to South Africa? MR NTEANI I returned towards the end of 1989. MS MOHAMED Did you ever meet Mr Mpanza thereafter? MR NTEANI I met him either in November or December 1991. MS MOHAMED Where did you meet him? MR NTEANI At kwaMashu. MS MOHAMED What did you all speak about when you met him? MR NTEANI I had left Mkababa to see him because of a problem that we experienced in our area. There was violence between the ANC and the IFP. We also experienced problems with the police prior to the violence erupting between the ANC and the IFP, there had been conflict with the police, so that when the IFP came into the picture, this violence escalated. When I went to see him, I wanted to find out from him if he could assist in the supplying of firearms as well as the training of people in our area, who would be responsible for protecting the community, in other words Self Defence Units. MS MOHAMED What did he say? MR NTEANI Firstly he told me that it was rather difficult because they did not have weapons. He informed me that when they came back from exile, they did not have weapons. I then requested him to try whatever means to secure these weapons because of the extent of the violence in our area. He then promised that he would see what to do. MS MOHAMED Why did you specifically choose to speak to Mr Mpanza about this problem? MR NTEANI The first reason was that he is the one person I knew better amongst MK cadres. Secondly, I regarded him as my Commander, because when I underwent training, he was the Commander at Angola. Also we worked very closely when we were still members of the kwaMashu Youth League in the 1980's. Another reason was that he was very disciplined in following policies. Also as a Chairperson of the Youth League, I had to approach somebody who had discipline, who would carry out his activities in a manner that was in line with the policy, that was the reason why I approached Ziba. MS MOHAMED When you put this request to him, what was his response? MR NTEANI As I have already mentioned, he said there was a problem of the non-availability of firearms. After I had further pleaded with him, he promised that he would see what he could do. MS MOHAMED Did he ever come back to you with progress on your request? MR NTEANI We did contact each other on a few occasions, however, he did not specify what steps he was taking, he just promised that I should wait and he would come up with something. MS MOHAMED So did he ever come back to you and tell you exactly what, did he ever get back to you with a positive response or a negative response, apart from these initial discussions? MR LAX He has just told us that they did contact each other a few times, he never told him what he was going to do, but he promised that he would come up with something. MS MOHAMED Thank you Mr Lax. Did he ever get back to you after that? MR NTEANI No. CHAIRPERSON Did you ever give him advice as to what to do? MR NTEANI I did not know what he should do or what he could do. I relied on him as a cadre, so there was nothing that I suggested to him. CHAIRPERSON So you didn't give him advice or suggest anything that he should do, you had faith in him as a cadre and you left it up to him, correct? MR NTEANI That is correct. MS MOHAMED Thank you Mr Chairman, I have no further questions. MR LAX Just while you are, can you just explain one thing to us. He put you down as the person who gave him the orders? MR NTEANI I will say perhaps he regarded me as such because of our discussion. I think he responded to that question when he testified. I cannot comment on it, because he is the one who wrote it down. MR LAX Yes, but you regarded him as your Commander, not the other way around? MR NTEANI The distinction is that Ziba was a soldier and I was more active in politics. Normally soldiers receive directives from political leaders. They on their own, do not take initiatives, but they follow directives from political leaders. MR LAX Then why did you tell us earlier that you regarded him as your Commander? That is why you went to him, because you regarded him as your Commander. MR NTEANI I have explained that he was a Commander in the military. MS MOHAMED Thank you Mr Chairman, I have nothing further for this witness. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS MOHAMED CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Thank you, you are excused. WITNESS EXCUSED MS MOHAMED Mr Chairman, I would like to call Mr Shabalala. CHAIRPERSON Who is he? MR LAX He is Mayibuya, the one from eSikhaweni. CHAIRPERSON Mr Shabalala, which language would you wish to use? MR SHABALALA Zulu. TULANI SHABALALA (sworn states) CHAIRPERSON You may be seated. EXAMINATION BY MS MOHAMED Thank you Mr Chairman. Mr Shabalala ... MR LAX Just for the record, are you Tulani Shabalala, the person referred to in these affidavits? MR SHABALALA Yes, that is correct. MR LAX And you were also known as Mayibuya? MR SHABALALA Yes, that is correct, that is my combat name. MS MOHAMED Mr Shabalala, were you a member of any political organisation during 1991? MR SHABALALA Yes, I was an ANC member as well as being a member of MK. MS MOHAMED Did you hold, apart from this, did you hold any other particular rank within the organisation? MR SHABALALA Yes, I did. MS MOHAMED Can you tell us what that rank was? MR SHABALALA I served on the Regional Executive Committee of the Natal Region, I was also the Head of Security in the Intelligence section. I was also an MK member. MS MOHAMED Around 1991, which area were you based in? MR SHABALALA At Empangeni. MS MOHAMED What was your role there? MR SHABALALA As I have mentioned, I was Head of Security responsible for the protection of the leadership in the region and when national leaders arrived at Empangeni, I would be responsible for security. I was also Head of Intelligence, responsible for gathering information. I was also Commander of MK. MS MOHAMED Mr Shabalala, do you know the applicant, Mr Mpanza? MR SHABALALA Yes, I know Ziba Mpanza. MS MOHAMED How did you know him? MR SHABALALA I first knew him from kwaMashu where I used to reside. I also met him in Angola, where I had undergone a training course in shooting as well as in communication. CHAIRPERSON Ms Mohamed, for the purposes of what I think you called this witness, is it absolutely necessary to read out all his credentials? MS MOHAMED No, Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON Well, let's get to the hub of the matter then. MS MOHAMED Thank you Mr Chairman. Mr Shabalala, did you meet the applicant around 1991? MR SHABALALA Yes, we did meet here in Durban. MS MOHAMED What was the purpose of your meeting? MR SHABALALA The primary aim was to discuss a problem of a person known as Steyn and his other name Mtagati, loosely translated a witchdoctor. CHAIRPERSON Excuse me? I didn't hear that last answer. INTERPRETER The applicant said the primary purpose of the meeting was to discuss Steyn whose other name was Mtagati, and I said loosely translated that means witchdoctor. CHAIRPERSON He said Steyn? INTERPRETER Yes. CHAIRPERSON Okay. MS MOHAMED Why did you want to discuss Mr Steyn with Mr Mpanza? MR SHABALALA I discussed the matter with Ziba, because he was a sniper. I was looking for somebody who could kill Mr Steyn, because he was a problem. CHAIRPERSON Mr Shabalala, have you made application for any amnesty? MR SHABALALA No, I did not. However, I believe that the leadership had submitted an application which included everyone. CHAIRPERSON Well, they have lost that application, if you did not hear, but be that as it may, I want to point out to you that you had not been subpoenaed by the TRC and in the circumstances, I am not too sure whether you are protected from prosecution. I want to tell you or inform you that if that is so, you are not compelled to answer any questions that may implicate you. Do you understand that? MR SHABALALA Yes, I do. CHAIRPERSON Carry on, Ms Mohamed. MS MOHAMED Now, what did Ziba say to you after you discussed this with him? MR SHABALALA As a soldier, I had left everything up to him, because the situation was urgent, he promised that he would take action as soon as possible. CHAIRPERSON Mr Shabalala, I think I have discussed the matter with my colleagues, and we think it is safer to explain the warning I have just given you, much more. You see, to an extent, in terms of the Act under which we sit, people who testify are protected from further, from having what they said here, being used as evidence in other matters, such as criminal matters, civil matters, in respect of delict. But we have doubts as to whether you are in a position to claim that protection, and given that, you have been asked questions about an incident in which you may be criminally involved, for example this has already been done, so there is nothing we can do about that, is that you told us that you were party to a plan, a conspiracy to assassinate at least Mr Steyn, who is known as a witchdoctor. Do you understand that? Conspiracy is a crime in itself and you are not compelled to answer any questions that may lead to implicating you. Do you understand that? You don't have to answer those questions which you feel, may incriminate you. If you have doubts, you can ask me whether you should answer the question or not. As far as I can, I will help you. Do you understand that? MR SHABALALA Yes, I do. CHAIRPERSON So if you feel that you must answer a question which may incriminate you, please tell us that you have doubts about the answer of this question, and you think it would implicate you and therefore you refuse to answer the question. Do you understand that? MR SHABALALA Yes, I do. CHAIRPERSON Ms Mohamed, you obviously consulted with the witness, I am largely in your hands as to really drive this, to avoid questions that may lead to what we are talking about. MS MOHAMED Yes, thank you Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON Carry on. Mr Mayibuya, you have been sitting in the hearing throughout the hearing, is that not so? MR SHABALALA Yes. CHAIRPERSON I must say that I noticed you at the back of the hall, and I got the impression that you appreciated some of the questions that were asked, and the answers that were given, some of which did not even impress you? Do you want to answer? MR SHABALALA That is true. CHAIRPERSON So you are aware of what was said here about this incident and how you fitted in there, whatever occurred. Is that correct? MR SHABALALA Yes. CHAIRPERSON Do you confirm what was said there in so far as it affects you or don't you agree with it? MR SHABALALA There is nothing that I do not agree with. CHAIRPERSON You don't wish to amend anything? MR SHABALALA No, there is nothing. MS MOHAMED Mr Chairman, if I may just have a moment. thank you Mr Chairman. Mr Chairman, on that basis, I have no further questions for this witness. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS MOHAMED MR PANDAY I have no questions, Mr Chairman. NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR PANDAY CHAIRPERSON Thank you, you are excused. WITNESS EXCUSED MS MOHAMED Mr Chairman, that is the applicant's case. CHAIRPERSON Is that your lot, Ms Mohamed? MS MOHAMED Yes, Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON Mr Panday, have you got any witnesses? MR PANDAY No, Mr Chairman, no witnesses. CHAIRPERSON Ms Thabethe? MS THABETHE Mr Chair, I would like to call ... CHAIRPERSON Shall we take lunch now? We will take lunch. MS THABETHE Thank you. COMMITTEE ADJOURNS ON RESUMPTION MS THABETHE I would like her to take the oath, please. CHAIRPERSON Is she Miss or Mrs? MS THABETHE Mrs. CHAIRPERSON What language would you wish to use? MS MKHIZE I wish to use English. CHAIRPERSON Very well. SHEILA MKHIZE (sworn states) CHAIRPERSON Please be seated. EXAMINATION BY MS THABETHE Ms Mkhize, is it true that you are the investigator for the TRC? MS MKHIZE That is true. MS THABETHE Is it also true that you were an investigator in the matter of Mpanza? MS MKHIZE Yes. MS THABETHE Who is the applicant, and Malevu and Shandu, who are implicated persons in this matter? MS MKHIZE Yes. MS THABETHE We have you here just to clarify one discrepancy, or a few issues in this application. I would start with the statement of Shandu. Do you remember going to Shandu in prison? MS MKHIZE Yes, I do. MS THABETHE Can you tell the Committee what led you to go to Shandu in prison? MS MKHIZE I went to Waterval prison which is outside of Newcastle to obtain a statement from Shandu and also to clarify some points that were not clear in the application of Mr Gerald Mpanza, and also to find out from him what actually transpired in the matter, because he had since been implicated by Mr Mpanza, the applicant. MS THABETHE Now, did you take a statement from him? MS MKHIZE Yes, I did. MS THABETHE Is this the statement on page 13, hand-written statement on page 13, 14, 15 and 16? MS MKHIZE Yes, that is correct. MS THABETHE Is this your handwriting? MS MKHIZE Yes, it is my handwriting. MS THABETHE What language did you use when you were taking the statement? MS MKHIZE We communicated in Zulu with Shandu because I knew that he was a Zulu speaker, I asked him and then he told me that he would be comfortable in talking in Zulu. MS THABETHE And then how did it come about that the statement was in English? MS MKHIZE Now, as my evidence, I was forced and compelled to take the statement down in English. MS THABETHE Okay. MS MKHIZE I would say it was translated by me from Zulu into English. MS THABETHE Okay. In paragraph 2 of Shandu's statement, he states that he signed a form, sorry he states that although ... CHAIRPERSON Let's put it this way, in this statement it appears that he signed a separate statement, is that what it says? MR LAX They made a global application for amnesty. CHAIRPERSON Oh, it appears from that statement that Mr Shandu had indicated that he had in fact made an application together with two others. That is the way to put the question, Ms Thabethe. MS THABETHE Yes. CHAIRPERSON Because exactly what he said is in dispute. MS THABETHE Yes. CHAIRPERSON Can you explain why that appears in that statement? MS MKHIZE I will say Mr Chairperson, whatever appears in this statement, is what I was told by Mr Shandu. CHAIRPERSON He disputes that. MS MKHIZE If he does dispute it, then I don't know at what point, because I would say it is a lie, because after obtaining a statement from him, I read it out to him and he confirmed that all that was written down, was true. MS THABETHE Thank you Mr Chair, I have no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS THABETHE MS MOHAMED Mr Chairman, I have no questions, thank you. CHAIRPERSON No questions? MS MOHAMED No. NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS MOHAMED MR PANDAY No questions, Mr Chairman. NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR PANDAY CHAIRPERSON Thank you. WITNESS EXCUSED MS THABETHE Thank you Mr Chair, I call Joshua Cele. CHAIRPERSON Mr Cele, what language would you wish to speak? MR CELE I wish to testify in Zulu, Mr Chair. JOSHUA CELE (sworn states) CHAIRPERSON Please be seated. EXAMINATION BY MS THABETHE Mr Cele, is it correct that you are an investigator working for the Truth Commission? MR CELE Yes, that is correct. MS THABETHE Taking into consideration that you heard my questioning Ms Mhkize, I will take you through to the statement right away. Did you go to Westville prison to take a statement from Goodman Malevu? MR CELE Yes, I did. MS THABETHE What was the reason for you to go to him and to take a statement? MR CELE I was assisting Ms Mkhize in investigating the application of Mr Mpanza. MS THABETHE Was Ms Mkhize present when you took the statement? MR CELE Yes, she was present. MS THABETHE Is this the statement that appears, hand-written on page 6 to 10 of the bundle? I would like my learned colleague, Mr Panday to show the witness please. MR CELE Yes, it is. MS THABETHE The same issue is in dispute, Mr Cele, and I would like you to respond. Mr Malevu has testified to the fact that it is incorrect what is written on paragraph 10 of his statement, to the effect that they made the same application with Mr Ziba Mpanza and Mr Shandu? MR CELE What I put down on the statement was what was communicated to me by Mr Malevu. I could not have applicated any other thing. MS THABETHE What language did you use when you were taking the statement from him? MR CELE We were communicating in Zulu. MS THABETHE After you had taken the statement from him, did you read it to him, before he signed it? MR CELE Yes, I did and he also read it on his own. MS THABETHE Is it also correct Mr Cele, that you faxed a copy of his statement to him later on? MR CELE Indeed, he requested a copy, however the copy machine was not working at prison, so I went back to the office and faxed him the copy. He also telephoned me to say that he had received it. MS THABETHE Thank you Mr Chair, I have no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS THABETHE CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS MOHAMED Thank you Mr Chair. Mr Cele, it was Mr Malevu's evidence that after the statement was taken down by you, you asked him whether you should read it to him, is that - sorry and then Mr Malevu said no, because at that time he was going to take his meal and he was pushed for time, and therefore the statement was never read to him. Can you comment on that? MR CELE That is not true. When we spoke with Mr Malevu, I gained the impression that he was a knowledgeable and intelligent person, to the extent that when he read the statement himself, he requested that I remove some bits that I had written down. I do not understand how he claims that. CHAIRPERSON Where would he have asked for you to remove such? Is there anything that is removed from the statement? MR CELE Yes, on page 8, paragraph 8 on the same page. CHAIRPERSON The words "from Empangeni" has been removed, deleted? MR CELE Yes, after he had read it, he said he was not certain that he had resided at Empangeni. However, he knew the area, that is why he do not stand close to Tekozani when the crime was committed. MS MOHAMED Mr Cele, this faxed copy that you said you sent to Mr Malevu at prison, he says he never received that, can you comment? MR CELE Yes, I would comment. Mr Malevu used to telephone us to find out what was happening about his application. On one such occasion, he confirmed that he had received the fax which had been addressed to somebody who worked at the prison. The confirmation that he had received it, was from him. MS MOHAMED Thank you Mr Chairman, I have no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS MOHAMED CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR PANDAY Just one question. Mr Cele, when you completed the statement, did Mr Malevu at any stage appear to be in a hurry to get to taking his meals, because he has indicated that he trusted you and that he needed to get to his meals? MR CELE No, we spent a lot of time discussing this issue with Mr Malevu, we spent about two hours, and it was also in the morning, so I am not certain as to which meal he wanted to take at that time. MR PANDAY Thank you, nothing further Mr Chairman. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR PANDAY CHAIRPERSON Are you comfortable with English? MR CELE Yes. CHAIRPERSON What time of day did you take this statement? MR CELE It was a mistake that it is not reflected on the statement, but when I arrived, it was around ten o'clock when we started discussing this matter with Mr Malevu. CHAIRPERSON One last question, when did he start phoning you enquiring about the application? MR CELE A few days after we had been to the prison, because he had requested that I leave the office telephone numbers for him to contact us, should there be a need. I would say perhaps after two weeks. CHAIRPERSON Before you went to see him as an implicated person, he never contacted you about an application? MR CELE Well, he had never contacted me, as well as for the fact that I was assisting Sheila in this matter, because this was her case. I was seeing him for the first time on that day. CHAIRPERSON And he had access to a telephone? MR CELE I am not certain of prison regulations. CHAIRPERSON No, but he was able to phone you, so he must have had access to a telephone to phone you? MR CELE I will say yes, because I would be speaking to him directly. CHAIRPERSON And he would be able to phone the offices of the Truth and Reconciliation Commission at his own request? MR CELE Yes, I think that will be so. CHAIRPERSON Thank you, you are excused. WITNESS EXCUSED MS THABETHE That is all Mr Chair, thank you. MS MOHAMED IN ARGUMENT Thank you Mr Chair. Very briefly, it is my instructions that the applicants acted and they insist that they did, because of the political situation which existed in Mkababa and Empangeni. Mr Chairman and honourable members of the Committee, I am aware that given the nature of the testimony lead here, it becomes increasingly difficult for me to put forward a concrete basis for submissions, and to say that I have been embarrassed is putting it mildly, but I leave the decision ... CHAIRPERSON I appreciate your position, Ms Mohamed. MS MOHAMED On that basis, Mr Chairman and honourable members of the Committee, I leave the decision in your hands. Thank you. MR PANDAY They have no real case. MS THABETHE The same applies, Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON We will take time to give a decision in this matter. I think that brings an end to the roll. MS THABETHE Not really, Mr Chair. CHAIRPERSON What have we got left? MS THABETHE Mr Chair, I will start with the matter of Songomoni Pillay, which was on the roll and put it on record that we received a letter from him, dated the 23rd of August 2000 where he withdraws his application, and I would like to put that on record. CHAIRPERSON Yes? MS THABETHE Thank you. The next matter, Mr Chair, was the matter of Eric Molobe, it is one of the applications that we have had various problems with. The investigator, Mpume, even wrote a letter explaining the problems she has had with trying to get hold of the applicant. The applicant was duly notified of this hearing, his matter was set down for yesterday, Wednesday. CHAIRPERSON: And? MS THABETHE And he hasn't turned up, Mr Chair. CHAIRPERSON Are you satisfied that he was properly notified? MS THABETHE I am satisfied, Mr Chair. CHAIRPERSON Well, that matter is then struck from the roll. MS THABETHE Mr Chair, if I may just add for the record, this matter was initially set down on the 14th to the 18th of February 2000, there the applicant did not attend the hearing. The proceedings continued with regard to other matters, but he never pitched at the hearing. The same has happened in this one. CHAIRPERSON Yes. MS THABETHE Thank you. CHAIRPERSON Like I said the matter is struck from the roll. MS THABETHE As the Committee pleases. CHAIRPERSON Are there any other matter that we need to deal with? MS THABETHE That is the end of the roll, Mr Chair. CHAIRPERSON Then this hearing is adjourned. HEARING ADJOURNS