amntrans AMNESTY HEARINGS 2000-08-31 PRETORIA 12 IZAK DANIEL BOSCH AM3765/96 https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=54451&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/2000/200831pt.htm ADV BOSMAN The applicant has been sworn, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Thank you, Advocate Bosman. Mr Lamey, you may proceed. EXAMINATION BY MR LAMEY Thank you, Chairperson. Mr Bosch, you have also prepared an initial application which was prepared in your handwriting, which appears from page 87 to 93, the general from thereof. MR BOSCH That's correct, Chairperson. MR LAMEY And you have also added a typed annexure which you briefly referred to, and there you referred to the acts for which you applied for amnesty, is that correct? MR BOSCH That is correct, Chairperson. MR LAMEY And later when you obtained legal representation with regard to the drawing up of your further particulars, you were assisted by Mr Rossouw, is that correct? MR BOSCH That is correct, Chairperson. MR LAMEY And on page 102 to 105, we find the particulars which you supplied with regard to the arson in Khanya House, is that correct? MR BOSCH That is correct, Chairperson. MR LAMEY You also refer to the incident taking place in 1989/1988(sic), do you accept that it took place in October 1988, as previously said? MR BOSCH That's correct, Chairperson. MR LAMEY During the completion of your supplementary statement you had insight into the statement of Mr Nortje that had already been completed at that stage. MR BOSCH That is correct, Chairperson. MR LAMEY And you refer to it insofar as it is relevant to you. MR BOSCH That is correct, Chairperson. MR LAMEY Can you tell the Committee what was your role in this incident. MR BOSCH Chairperson, I received instructions from Col de Kock to transport the persons from Vlakplaas to Khanya House. I prepared the minibus, in other words I put on false plates and filled the petrol in it and I think beforehand I went to drive around the place in order to familiarise myself with the place and I knew the road and although I am from Pretoria I just wanted to familiarise myself with the vicinity there. MR LAMEY Why did you do that? MR BOSCH In order to familiarise myself with the routes. If something happened I had to know which route to take to get away from there quickly. MR LAMEY The question has been put previously by Mr Hattingh, I would like to ask you about it. Besides the applicants who applied here, what is your recollection, were there more persons involved in this incident that have not applied? MR BOSCH Yes, definitely, Chairperson. At the time when I saw this amnesty application and I saw the names here, I immediately knew that this was not all the people that were involved here. MR LAMEY Can you recall anyone specifically? MR BOSCH Chairperson, it is extremely difficult. I wish to assist the Committee with it, but I cannot recall everyone, but I know my minibus was full of people. MR LAMEY What did you do while the other members went into the building? MR BOSCH I drove to Khanya House, I parked on the northern side. There was a parking area next to the entrance that led into the church, I stopped there and I waited there. I had a police radio on a police frequency to monitor if any report was made to radio control that there was activity at Khanya House or at the church, then we could inform the persons. I had an extra radio with me, the same that Bellingan had, so that we could communicate with the persons inside. MR LAMEY Did you know or did you expect that there would be people in the building when the operation took place? MR BOSCH No, Chairperson. MR LAMEY What was the information in that regard, as far as you know? MR BOSCH That the building was empty and that the printing press had to be destroyed in the building or burnt down. MR LAMEY And then you also mention that you only executed your orders. With regard to your political motivation, you said it was in order to stop the ANC and prevent the revolutionary pamphlets being printed there. Did that information come to your knowledge, that it was also a motivation why this building had to be damaged? MR BOSCH That's correct, Chairperson, that is what they told us, there was a printing press and literature is printed there. MR LAMEY And you executed your instructions under the command of Col de Kock. MR BOSCH That is correct, Chairperson. MR LAMEY What was your rank at that stage? MR BOSCH I was a Sergeant. MR LAMEY Were you in a position to verify any information which led to any decision, or did you just execute your instructions? MR BOSCH I just executed my instructions. MR LAMEY Did you place your trust in your Commanders to clear up the motivation for this action and to get clarity of it? MR BOSCH Yes, I completely trusted my Commander and executed my instructions to the tee. MR LAMEY You also say that you were under the impression that the building was occupied by the South African Council of Churches, it would appear now that the building belonged to the Catholic Church community, can you please explain how you came under that impression. MR BOSCH Chairperson, I was not involved with the church desk or anything, I thought everything fell under the Council of Churches, that they were the controlling body of all the churches. MR LAMEY Certainly not of all churches, but which churches specifically? Is this the churches who were involved in the struggle? MR BOSCH Yes, churches who were promoting the struggle of the ANC, that's correct, Chairperson. MR LAMEY You were also involved in the Khotso House incident. MR BOSCH That is correct, Chairperson. MR LAMEY Which happened a few months before this incident? MR BOSCH That's correct, Chairperson. MR LAMEY And the evidence was indeed that that was the building that was used by the South African Council of Churches. MR BOSCH That is correct, Chairperson. MR LAMEY Thank you, Chairperson, I have no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR LAMEY CHAIRPERSON Thank you, Mr Lamey. Mr Hattingh? MR HATTINGH Thank you, Mr Chairman, I have no questions. NO QUESTIONS BY MR HATTINGH CHAIRPERSON Thank you. MR VAN DER MERWE Van der Merwe on record, no questions thank you Mr Chair. NO QUESTIONS BY MR VAN DER MERWE MR NEL I have no questions, thank you Mr Chairman. NO QUESTIONS BY MR NEL MR WAGENER Thank you Chairman, no questions. NO QUESTIONS BY MR WAGENER MR BUNN Thank you, Mr Chairman, no questions. NO QUESTIONS BY MR BUNN MR JOUBERT Thank you Mr Chair, no questions. NO QUESTIONS BY MR JOUBERT MR DU PLESSIS I have no questions, Mr Chairman. NO QUESTIONS BY MR DU PLESSIS MR CORNELIUS Wim Cornelius for the record, no questions, thank you Mr Chair. NO QUESTIONS BY MR CORNELIUS CHAIRPERSON Ms Cambanis? MS CAMBANIS Sorry Chairperson, but I just want to know one thing, please. CHAIRPERSON Why are you sorry that you've got to ask? You don't have to be. CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS CAMBANIS I do, Sir. Sir, you were in radio contact with the people inside the building. MR BOSCH Correct, Chairperson, I think we had four sets of radios or four radios. Two radios, one with Bellingan, one with me, because I think he was on the south end of the building, I was on the north end of the building and then two radios inside the building. MS CAMBANIS Yes. And the two radios inside the building, who had those radios? MR BOSCH Chairperson, I cannot tell you who had those radios. MS CAMBANIS Thank you, Chair, that is all. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS CAMBANIS CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Ms Patel? MS PATEL Thank you, Honourable Chairperson, no questions. NO QUESTIONS BY MS PATEL CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Advocate Bosman? ADV BOSMAN No questions, thank you Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Advocate Sandi? ADV SANDI Thank you, no questions Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON Thank you, Mr Bosch, I don't think there would be any re-examination, that's why I thank you in anticipation to that. You are excused. MR LAMEY Indeed. Thank you, Chairperson. WITNESS EXCUSED CHAIRPERSON Any further evidence in respect of Mr Bosch, Mr Lamey? MR LAMEY No evidence, thank you Chairperson, that is the case for the two applicants that I represent. And then I just want to clarify the position of Mr Willemse, Chairperson. May we perhaps mark the documents as exhibits which have been handed to the Committee. I think we are at Exhibit G. I think the supplementary report must perhaps be read with the first report, shall we mark the first report dated the 10th of July, G, and then the other one, H, Chairperson? CHAIRPERSON Why not G and G1, because that's the same. MR LAMEY As it pleases you, Chairperson. Chairperson, under the circumstances then my application to the Committee is in the light of which I perceive there's no real objection to this, that Mr Willemse's application be considered on the affidavit which is before the Committee. Unless there's any other issue which must be clarified with Mr Willemse, endeavours could be made to obtain a further supplementary affidavit, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Ms Cambanis, earlier I somewhat heard you that you had no objection to this psychiatric report, which meant, I may be mistaken, to me that as the initial request went, that he may not testify and we can merely decide upon his application on the papers before us. MS CAMBANIS Yes, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Thank you very much, you need not address me any further on that, Mr Lamey. MR LAMEY I'm indebted to the Committee, as well as to my learned friend, Chairperson, thank you. CHAIRPERSON Unless I have not been following the proceedings, it would appear that's the end of the applicants and we've got an hour to kill. Would you venture to call some of the people you had indicated you may call? MS CAMBANIS Yes, I'm happy to commence, Chairperson. Chairperson, firstly, I'd like to - the bundle of statements, perhaps that can be handed in as Exhibit H. CHAIRPERSON H and then thereafter, 1, 2, 3. MS CAMBANIS Yes. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. MS CAMBANIS Chairperson, I beg leave to call Ms Rosemary Cook. CHAIRPERSON Then I suppose we've got to rearrange them in accordance to the people you are going to call, because here I see, the first one I have before me is Sister Bridget Flannagan. I suppose they've got to be rearranged then? MS CAMBANIS No Chairperson, with respect, it's not necessary to do that, Sister Bridget will not be giving evidence in this matter. CHAIRPERSON Okay. So you're calling Rosemary Florence Cook? MS CAMBANIS Yes, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. ROSEMARY FLORENCE COOK (sworn states) CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Take a seat and make yourself very comfortable. Ms Cambanis? EXAMINATION BY MS CAMBANIS Mrs Cook, if you look at the bundle in front of you, you'll see at page 2 ...(end of side B of tape) ... with the signature at the bottom of that statement, is that in fact your statement? MS COOK Yes, it was a report that I was asked to submit to the Bishops Conference after the event. MS CAMBANIS And from the date we see that that was signed on the 23rd of October 1988. MS COOK That is correct. MS CAMBANIS And did you make any other statements after the events of the 12th of October 1988? MS COOK Yes, I did. On the day after the event, that is on the 12th of October, I made a statement to the police. MS CAMBANIS Mrs Cook, in your own words will you just tell us what happened on the evening of the 12th of October. You were at Khanya House, is that correct? MS COOK Yes, that is correct. MS CAMBANIS Just, please in your own words, proceed. MS COOK At that time I worked for a Commission of the Bishops Conference called The Church and Work Commission, and we were attending our biannual meeting at Khanya House, which was lasting from the 11th over the evening of the 11th of the 12th, and it was supposed to finish on the 12th of October. We had been meeting most of the day and we finished about 10 o'clock in the evening. MS CAMBANIS If I can just interrupt you. When you say "we", do you remember who the persons were that attended? MS COOK Yes. MS CAMBANIS Who are they please? MS COOK For the record, there was Bishop Verstrate and Bishop Umkhumishe, who were the Chair and Vice Chair of our Commission. There was Dr Rob Lambert, he was the ...(intervention) MS CAMBANIS You're going a little fast. MS COOK Sorry. There was Dr Rob Lambert, he was the Secretary, Mr Roddy Nunes, Mr Jonathan Williams and myself, I was the Administrative Secretary. MS CAMBANIS Yes, please carry on. MS COOK As I say we finished our meeting at about 10 o'clock and this meeting had taken place on the third floor in an office facing the street, that is Visagie Street on the southern end of the building. We then went to our bedrooms which were situated on the second floor, and it was approximately 11 o'clock, I think, that I turned my light out, but I could not sleep straight away. I was a bit restless and I did go to sleep but woke up again, I think it must have been a couple of hours later. I heard footsteps in the passageway and as though someone was feeling their way along the wall. And then there was a peculiar smell suddenly that was being suffused into the room and I felt as though, I couldn't breath, I was being suffocated and my eyes and my throat were stinging and I got up and I opened the window onto the balcony and I went back to bed and a few minutes later, it must have been, there was this enormous explosion and shattering glass and I really became very upset and I rushed out into the passageway. My colleagues were already there in the passageway shouting "fire, fire, get out, the place is on fire." I rushed towards, down the passageway towards the main staircase which was on the south side of the building and I noticed as I ran along the corridor, the passage which was carpeted, that the carpet was wet and the fumes and the smoke were there and I really didn't know what this was all about. I tried to go to the - I tried to go down the main stairway and got as far as the place on the stairs where it turned a corner, but before I could even go around the corner, this terrible heat and smoke forced me to turn back. I ran back up those few stairs and along the passage and I had just started going along the passage when I bumped into something, it wasn't very heavy, it was quite light and didn't make a noise as it fell. It fell onto the floor in front of me and it spread its contents. I was in a hurry and I was really afraid and I was running and then I noticed on the floor, just a little way in front of me there was a light coming from the floor, as if there was a luminous glow coming from the floor and round that I could see cording, some type of cord, but I wasn't paying particular attention or I didn't know what it was, I was just so set on concentrating on getting out of this building and I ran shouting to my colleagues who were in the passageway, "We can't get out that way." I did not know where the fire exit was. And so we rushed into my bedroom which was closest to the north side of the building and as we rushed into the bedroom, I turned around and noticed that there was a fire coming along this corridor, and it suddenly made me realise, but that fire is right outside Sister Bridget Flannagan's bedroom and she wasn't with us. And so we clamoured onto the balcony adjoining the bedroom. That was Roddy and Robert, Jonathan and myself. We rushed along the corridor outside the adjoining building, the building, and we, I think it was Rob who broke the window to her bedroom and she was still fast asleep. We managed to waken her and we dragged her out onto the balcony with us. And when we tried to re-enter the building, when I tried to re-enter the building through my bedroom door again, it was too late, we were trapped. There was fire in the corridors and we could not get out. We remained on the balcony for quite some time I think, becoming quite hysterical, because the fire was in the passageway behind us, there was fire below us and we knew that there was no escape. We became quite hysterical and we screamed and we shouted for help. Just then a large truck went past in Visagie Street and the driver stopped and we shouted and shouted to him please to get us help from the fire brigade and he continued to drive off and we waited and we waited. In the meantime, the flames below, the building, the roof had collapsed and these flames and the heat were so intense. Eventually the fire department did come. I don't know how long it was, but it seemed an eternity. The fire department came and they still didn't seem to take notice of us, although they knew we were there, but I heard later that they were actually having to douse the flames below us before they could rescue us. And after we waited for a while they sent one of these ladders, because they were parked in the street they sent one of these ladders across to us and we decided then that Sister Bridget Flannagan would go first on this ladder and the fireman came and carried her across this ladder and I followed, falling on all fours, terrified of falling into the fire, and then Rob Lambert followed me and then Roddy Nunes. And so it was that we were able to get out of that building unharmed. MS CAMBANIS If I could just show you on Exhibit E, on page 2 there's a photograph of Khanya House, can you just orientate us in terms of this photograph, of where you and your colleagues were asleep at that time. MS COOK This photograph shows the opposite side of the building to which my bedroom and Rob Lambert and Sister Flannagan's were, this was the opposite side with the balconies where the two Bishops were sleeping together with Jonathan and Roddy. MS CAMBANIS Mrs Cook, you've travelled up for the hearings in order to hear what motivated the persons to do what they did that night, is that correct? MS COOK That is correct, yes. MS CAMBANIS Would you just give your thoughts on what you've heard so far? MS COOK So far I've wanted to hear what actually did transpire that night. There were many questions that were unanswered, that we were never sure of, because whenever we asked we never got answers and it wasn't until I was approached and told that there was an amnesty application, that we actually knew who had done it, and my thoughts were that perhaps at last we will hear the truth. I have been rather despondent during these hearings, because somehow in some of the testimonies, not all, I'm beginning to wonder whether anyone was going to take responsibility for what I witnessed on the second floor. MS CAMBANIS Thank you, Chair, that is the evidence-in-chief. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS CAMBANIS CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Any questions, Mr Hattingh? MR HATTINGH Yes, please. Thank you Mr Chairman. Is it Mrs Cook? MS COOK Yes. CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR HATTINGH Thank you. Do I understand you correctly that you would have spent only one night in Khanya House, the night on which the fire actually occurred? MS COOK Yes, that is correct, that was the plan. MR HATTINGH And the same applies to the other six people who spent the, who were going to spend the night there, is that correct? MS COOK That is correct. MR HATTINGH So there weren't people who lived there on a permanent basis as far as you're aware? MS COOK No. MR HATTINGH And those sleeping quarters were used only on occasion such as the occasion on which you slept there, is that correct? MS COOK They were used for occasions of meetings of the Commission and various other conferences that were held. MR HATTINGH For people who'd come from far? MS COOK That is correct. MR HATTINGH You retired to bed at approximately 11 o'clock that night? MS COOK That's right. MR HATTINGH And I assume so did most of the others, especially if you look at their statements? MS COOK Yes. MR HATTINGH Now you told us that you were asked to submit a report on the incident, who asked you to submit the report? MS COOK The Bishops Conference. MR HATTINGH And were all of you asked to submit reports? MS COOK I'm not sure. I know that Rob and I who were together in Durban, were asked to submit a report. MR HATTINGH Because we only have statements from five people and we know that there were seven people who were going to sleep there that night, is that correct? MS COOK That is right. MR HATTINGH We have one from Sister Bridget Flannagan, from yourself, Verstrate, Bishop Umkhumishe and Robert Lambert. Who are the two missing ones? MS COOK The two that aren't here in this bundle are Roddy Nunes and Jonathan Williams. MR HATTINGH Roddy Nunes and Williams. Where were they from? MS COOK Jonathan was situated in Durban and Roddy in Cape Town. MR HATTINGH Cape Town, yes. You are from? MS COOK I'm from Durban. MR HATTINGH And we know from the statements that Sister Bridget Flannagan gives a Pretoria address. MS COOK That is correct. MR HATTINGH Did she live in Pretoria at the time? MS COOK She lived at the Loreto Convent, yes, adjacent to Khanya House. MR HATTINGH Adjacent to Khanya House. MS COOK Yes. MR HATTINGH Is there any reason why she spent the night in the sleeping quarters where you were? MS COOK She came across in the evening to check that we had supper and everything was under control and then had stayed on. MR HATTINGH To sleep there for the night? MS COOK To sleep, that night with us. MR HATTINGH And we see that Verstrate is from Klerksdorp. MS COOK That is correct. MR HATTINGH Or was at the time, is he still there? MS COOK No. MR HATTINGH Bishop Umkhumishe, where is he from? Port Elizabeth? No, sorry, Witbank. MS COOK Witbank. MR HATTINGH Witbank. Is he still there? MS COOK No, he has moved as well. MR HATTINGH Alright. Then the last one from whom we've got a statement, Robert Lambert, Durban it seems, is that correct? MS COOK At that time he was, yes. MR HATTINGH From Durban? MS COOK Yes. MR HATTINGH Now was this the first time that you'd spent a night in Khanya House? MS COOK No, it wasn't. MR HATTINGH So you were familiar with the building? MS COOK To a certain extent, yes. MR HATTINGH On how many previous occasions did you spend a night or some nights there? MS COOK It's difficult to say, we had biannual meetings and I worked for the Bishops Conference for a number of years, so it was a few times. MR HATTINGH Yes. Now as I understand your evidence, I'm looking at the picture of the building on page 2 of Exhibit E, your room was on the opposite side of the building, not on the side that we see here? MS COOK That is correct. MR HATTINGH Do I understand your evidence then to be that the passage had rooms on both sides? MS COOK That is correct. MR HATTINGH And the passage itself you said had a carpet. MS COOK Yes. MR HATTINGH Was it wall-to-wall carpet? MS COOK Yes. MR HATTINGH And do you know what was underneath the carpet? Is it concrete or wood? MS COOK Most probably concrete, having regard to the fact that it's the second floor, not so? MS COOK I wouldn't really know. MR HATTINGH Now you said that you heard footsteps, how could you hear footsteps on a carpeted floor? MS COOK I did hear footsteps on the carpeted floor. MR HATTINGH Your door was closed? MS COOK My door was closed. MR HATTINGH And you had already fallen asleep, so when you woke up you weren't wide awake immediately? MS COOK I was wide awake by that time. MR HATTINGH You were. So you heard footsteps? MS COOK Yes. MR HATTINGH Can you say whether it was the footsteps of more than one person? MS COOK No, it sounded as though it was one person and I took it that at that stage it was one of my colleagues going to the bathroom. MR HATTINGH Why did you arrive at that conclusion? MS COOK I didn't think there was anyone else in the building that could have been ...(indistinct) footsteps. MR HATTINGH But didn't it strike you as peculiar that you could also hear that this person sounded as though he or she was feeling his or her way along the wall? MS COOK Yes, I had ...(intervention) MR HATTINGH How did you hear that? MS COOK I had - because it crossed my door, I heard the hands going across my door and I had presumed that it obviously was dark and they were merely not trying to disturb anyone and were going across to the bathroom. MR HATTINGH Was it dark in the passage? MS COOK Yes. MR HATTINGH Are there lights in the passage? MS COOK Yes, there are lights in the passage. MR HATTINGH But they were switched off? MS COOK They were off. MR HATTINGH Do you know who switched them off? MS COOK No. MR HATTINGH Do you know where the switch is? MS COOK I have no idea. MR HATTINGH But you are certain that they were switched off? MS COOK They were off. MR HATTINGH Did you, when you got up did you switch on your bedroom light? MS COOK I didn't try to, no. MR HATTINGH You didn't try. MS COOK No. MR HATTINGH Very well. Now you heard the footsteps and then you detected this peculiar smell. What did it smell like? MS COOK It was a very familiar smell. MR HATTINGH You know what petrol smells like? MS COOK Yes, but I couldn't really identify it. I do know what petrol smells like. MR HATTINGH So it didn't smell like petrol? MS COOK I was not sure. MR HATTINGH Well if you know what petrol smells like, why could you not determine whether it was the smell of petrol or not? MS COOK I do not know. MR HATTINGH You do not know. Then you got up and you opened your window. MS COOK Yes, that is correct. MR HATTINGH And then you got into bed again. MS COOK Yes. MR HATTINGH How long after you'd opened your window did you hear the explosion? MS COOK It wasn't very long, it must have been just minutes possibly. MR HATTINGH Before you heard the explosion you heard nothing else, apart from the footsteps that you described? MS COOK No. MR HATTINGH And did you then immediately get up? MS COOK Yes. MR HATTINGH And where did you go to? MS COOK I rushed out into the passageway. MR HATTINGH Into the passageway? MS COOK Yes. MR HATTINGH And it was dark? MS COOK It was dark. MR HATTINGH And there were no windows along the passage, so it must have been completely dark. MS COOK Yes. MR HATTINGH And you wouldn't have been able to see anything? MS COOK No, I could see sufficient to see figures there. MR HATTINGH Where did the light come from that enabled you to see figures? MS COOK It wasn't that dark that I couldn't see figures. MR HATTINGH Are there windows at the end of these passages? MS COOK I don't know. MR HATTINGH If there were no windows, Mrs Cook, I put it to you that it must have been pitch black in the passage, there couldn't have been any light from any other source and then you wouldn't have been able to make out any figures. Won't you agree? MS COOK No, I do not agree. MR HATTINGH You were able to make out figures you say? MS COOK Yes, we were all together in close proximity. MR HATTINGH Alright. So the others ...(intervention) MS COOK I could hear my colleagues speaking and I could identify their voices. MR HATTINGH But you couldn't see them. MS COOK I could see them. MR HATTINGH You could see them. MS COOK They were close to me. MR HATTINGH Their lights, did they switch on any of their bedroom lights? MS COOK No. MR HATTINGH Because we have a statement here from Bishop Umkhumishe on page 1, the third paragraph "What really got me up (he says) was the sound of breaking and falling pieces of glass. I got up and tried to switch on the headlamp but it did not work, so I rushed to the switch at the door. It too failed to light." and then a little lower down he says: "I opened my door and everybody was in the corridor, struggling to escape. We were all fumbling in thick darkness." Would you agree with that description? MS COOK I would agree that it was dark and that we were fumbling, but not in thick darkness. MR HATTINGH Not in thick darkness. MS COOK No. MR HATTINGH And when you got into the passage, were the others already there? Were you the last one to get into the passage, apart from the lady who was still asleep? MS COOK I heard Bishop Verstrate's voice, I heard Bishop Umkhumishe. I of course heard Rob and I heard Jonathan. I didn't hear Roddy's voice and also I didn't hear Sister Bridget Flannagan. MR HATTINGH Now were you able to determine what had caused the, where the explosion had come from? MS COOK No. MR HATTINGH Did you try and establish? MS COOK I was so afraid, no. I was not thinking in that way. MR HATTINGH Yes, well that is something that I was going to deal with, but whilst you're mentioning it now, it must have been a terrifying experience. MS COOK Yes, it was. MR HATTINGH And you're now in darkness, you heard an explosion and you couldn't determine what it was and where it had come from. You must have been panicking. MS COOK I was. MR HATTINGH Yes. What did you do once you got into the passage? MS COOK After they had said we must get out of the building, "fire, fire", I ran towards the main staircase because that was the route, exit route I knew. MR HATTINGH Right. Just before you get to that stage, when somebody was shouting "fire, fire", could you see any fire? MS COOK No. MR HATTINGH Could you see the glow of a fire? MS COOK No. MR HATTINGH So it was still dark in that passage? MS COOK In the passageway, yes. MR HATTINGH You then ran towards the main staircase? MS COOK That's right. MR HATTINGH On the, I think you said southern side. MS COOK That's right. MR HATTINGH And when you got there? MS COOK I ran down a few of the steps. MR HATTINGH At that stage, could you see any fire or the glow of any fire? MS COOK No. MR HATTINGH And that staircase leads all the way down to the ground floor? MS COOK It leads to the first floor and then onto the ground floor. MR HATTINGH Yes. So you ran down a bit, how far did you go down? MS COOK A few steps before I came to the place where the stairway changed, you know it came up like this, an angle like that and I got only a few steps, I couldn't even get there to the end of that little section. So I was not on the first floor, I was still on the second floor. MR HATTINGH You were still on the second floor, or in-between floors? MS COOK Yes. MR HATTINGH Now do I follow you correctly, my impression of what you're trying to tell us is that the stairs go down and then there's a bit of landing and then it goes down and then ...(indistinct) opposite direction, further down in the opposite direction. Had you reached that little landing yet? MS COOK I had not reached that landing yet. MR HATTINGH Right. And why could you not go any further? MS COOK I was just met by this intense heat and smoke. MR HATTINGH But still you could see no fire? MS COOK I could see no fire. MR HATTINGH Not even a glow of a fire? MS COOK No. MR HATTINGH So there was just intense heat and smoke? MS COOK That is right. MR HATTINGH Could you see or feel where it was coming from? MS COOK I felt it was coming right from there. MR HATTINGH From below? MS COOK From that floor, but I could not see it, I couldn't. MR HATTINGH When you say "that floor", which one? MS COOK I would presume the floor that I was going to then enter, which was going to be the first floor. MR HATTINGH The first floor. So you then - and what had happened to the other people? Were they following you or ...? MS COOK No, they were - I didn't look back at that stage, I presume they were still in the corridor. MR HATTINGH That was after somebody had shouted, "fire, fire"? MS COOK Yes, "get out." MR HATTINGH At that stage when someone shouted "fire, fire", was there any smoke in the passage? MS COOK It was filled with smoke. MR HATTINGH Filled with smoke. MS COOK It was filled with smoke. MR HATTINGH That must have impaired your vision as well? MS COOK Yes, yes it did. MR HATTINGH Was the smoke already there when you came out of your bedroom? MS COOK It was. MR HATTINGH So you then turned around and went back up the stairs? MS COOK I went back up a few stairs, yes. MR HATTINGH Did you go back into the passage on the second floor? MS COOK That is correct. MR HATTINGH How far was the staircase from your bedroom? MS COOK It was the other side of the corridor. MR HATTINGH So it was the length of the corridor? MS COOK That is right. MR HATTINGH Can you give us an estimate? I haven't been to the building. Can you perhaps indicate in this room, is it longer than the length of this room or ...? MS COOK It probably was the length of this room, it started with bedrooms and the bedroom, there were three bedrooms. MR HATTINGH The three ...(intervention) MS COOK ...(indistinct) that on this side there were three bedrooms. MR HATTINGH That's now on the northern side? MS COOK Yes. So yes, it could have been the length of this room. I'm not good at estimating, I really ... MR HATTINGH It's more than 20. CHAIRPERSON 25/30? MR HATTINGH 25, approximately 25. Thank you, Mr Chairman. Do I understand you correctly that the bedroom where you were sleeping was on the northern end of this corridor? You follow what I mean? I understood you to say that the corridor runs from north to south. MS COOK To south, yes, yes, it did. The bedrooms were placed on the right-hand side as I ran along and on the left-hand side. Yes, towards the north of that. MR HATTINGH Of the passage? MS COOK Of the passage, yes. Of the stairway. MR HATTINGH And then the rest of the rooms along that passage, what were they? Were they offices? MS COOK No, there was bathrooms. MR HATTINGH Yes. MS COOK And that was all. There was a lift and the stairway and the bedrooms. MR HATTINGH So only bedrooms and bathrooms on that floor? MS COOK Yes. MR HATTINGH Can you tell us how many bedrooms? MS COOK Well as I say, on this side there was, where Sister Bridget was and Robs and myself and then there was the lift and the staircase and bathrooms and on the other side, to the best of my knowledge, there was where the two Bishops were sleeping and where Jonathan and Roddy were sleeping. So that makes four. I can't recall whether there were more bedrooms than that. MR HATTINGH Alright. Now you don't know what the others did when you ran to the main staircase, but did you then return to your room when you got back into the passage? MS COOK Yes, I ran back along the passage as I said. MR HATTINGH At that stage it was filled with smoke? MS COOK Yes. MR HATTINGH And the lights were still off? MS COOK The lights were still off, yes. MR HATTINGH And you felt something? MS COOK When I started running along the corridor I felt something that I had knocked into and it fell over, spilling its contents onto the floor. MR HATTINGH How do you know that there was anything in it? MS COOK Because I could feel it was wet, it actually spilt on me. MR HATTINGH Spilt on you? MS COOK On my feet. MR HATTINGH But didn't you knock it away from you? MS COOK No, when I knocked it down it must have obviously been facing this way because I actually ran through it then. MR HATTINGH Were you not wearing shoes? MS COOK No, I was barefoot. MR HATTINGH Barefoot. You couldn't see the contents? MS COOK No. MR HATTINGH You could just feel it. MS COOK I could feel the contents. MR HATTINGH Could you smell it? MS COOK Yes, there were fumes coming from it? MR HATTINGH The same fumes that you detected earlier when you woke up? MS COOK That's right, yes. MR HATTINGH And where did you go to then? MS COOK I carried on running, but being more careful where I was trying to go, although I couldn't see very much and in the darkness I could, as I said I saw this glow coming from the floor just ahead of me. MR HATTINGH Now that, I'm not sure what you are trying to describe to us there. Whereabouts did you see this glow coming from? MS COOK It was on the floor on the side of the passageway and it was a bluish/green glow, and from that glow I could make out that there was some type of cord either attached to it or running next to it. MR HATTINGH Yes. MS COOK And that is all I saw. MR HATTINGH Now you mentioned in your evidence-in-chief - may I just consult my notes, you said as you rushed along the corridor or the passage, you could feel the carpets were wet. MS COOK Ja. MR HATTINGH Was that on your way to the main staircase? MS COOK That is right. MR HATTINGH And the carpet was wet all along? MS COOK Yes. MR HATTINGH Now when you saw this glow, was it coming towards you? MS COOK No. MR HATTINGH Where was it going? MS COOK It wasn't going anywhere, there was just this, as though, as if it was coming from something on the ground. MR HATTINGH But I mean, was it confined to a small area, or was it ...(intervention) MS COOK Yes, yes. MR HATTINGH It was just - it just started glowing in one particular area? MS COOK Yes. MR HATTINGH In the middle of the passage? MS COOK On the side in the passage, yes. MR HATTINGH On the side of the passage? MS COOK Yes. MR HATTINGH How far from your bedroom door? MS COOK Oh that was some way from my bedroom door. It was approximately outside Sister Bridget Flannagan's door. MR HATTINGH Yes, alright. Now ...(intervention) MS COOK Which was at the southern end. MR HATTINGH Now would it have been more-or-less in the middle of the length of the corridor? MS COOK No, at the beginning. MR HATTINGH At the beginning? MS COOK Yes. MR HATTINGH At the beginning where the staircase is? MS COOK On the south side, yes. MR HATTINGH So you saw it there and then? MS COOK And I continued running, shouting "we can't get out that way." MR HATTINGH But you saw this glow and you could see the cord, but no flames? MS COOK No, there were no flames. MR HATTINGH Despite the fact that the carpets were soaked? MS COOK Yes. MR HATTINGH And did you then go back into your room? MS COOK We said we - I said we couldn't get out that way and I didn't know where else to go. MR HATTINGH And did none of the others know where to go? Didn't you know where the fire escape was? MS COOK I had no idea where it was. MR HATTINGH Didn't any of the others know? MS COOK I found out later that they did know. MR HATTINGH No, but at the time, did somebody say to you, "Let's go down the fire escape"? MS COOK No. MR HATTINGH Nobody mentioned the fire escape? MS COOK No. MR HATTINGH So did you then decide to go back into your room? MS COOK Yes. MR HATTINGH And did the others follow you? MS COOK Yes. Not everyone followed me. MR HATTINGH Some of them followed you? MS COOK Yes, some of them followed me. MR HATTINGH I understood you to say, and if I'm mistaken please tell me so, that you say that where you saw the glow was more-or-less opposite the door of one of the people who were sleeping there? MS COOK Yes. MR HATTINGH Opposite whose door was that? MS COOK It was more-or-less in the vicinity of Bridget Flannagan's bedroom. MR HATTINGH And that was more-or-less towards the end of the corridor? MS COOK It was towards the southern staircase, yes. MR HATTINGH Yes. And your room was on the other side of the corridor? MS COOK That is correct. MR HATTINGH Did you enter your room then? MS COOK Yes. MR HATTINGH And when you saw the glow come from that area near her door, did you become concerned about her safety? MS COOK It made me think of her then as we rushed into our, into my bedroom, it reminded me that she wasn't with us. MR HATTINGH How did you determine that she wasn't with you? MS COOK I could hear who was with me and see. MR HATTINGH How could you see? MS COOK They were so close - we were so close together, pushing our way in. MR HATTINGH By then, when you came out of your room you must have left your door open. MS COOK Yes. MR HATTINGH By then your room must have been filled with smoke as well. MS COOK It was. MR HATTINGH Yes. Didn't it do anything to your eyes, the smoke? MS COOK My eyes were burning. MR HATTINGH I notice that you wear glasses, did you have your glasses on that ...(intervention) MS COOK I didn't wear glasses then, no. MR HATTINGH You didn't wear glasses then. And the fact that your eyes were burning must have also interfered with your ability to see. MS COOK Yes. MR HATTINGH Alright. You somehow gathered that she wasn't in the room, and what did you do then? MS COOK We were then on the balcony by this time ...(intervention) MR HATTINGH The balcony, it's not in sections, it runs along all the rooms? MS COOK Yes. MR HATTINGH So you could move to her room along the balcony? MS COOK The balcony, yes. MR HATTINGH But you're not referring to the balcony that we see on page 2 of Exhibit E, or are you? MS COOK No, I'm referring to the balcony on the opposite side. MR HATTINGH The other side, right. And did you then - what did you do when you got to her room? MS COOK Her windows were closed and so we, Rob Lambert broke her window and he entered. MR HATTINGH Through the window? MS COOK Yes. MR HATTINGH And did you get her out of her room through the window? MS COOK Onto the balcony, yes. MR HATTINGH And that's where you remained until you were rescued. MS COOK That is correct. MR HATTINGH Now did you go back into the building the next day? MS COOK No, I didn't. MR HATTINGH Did you go back into the building that same night, after the fire was put out? MS COOK No, I didn't. I tried to access the building the next day, but it was cordoned off and I was refused access. MR HATTINGH Do you know if one of the other people, one of the other six people went back into the building, either the same night or the next morning? MS COOK Yes, I do believe some of my colleagues did. MR HATTINGH Go back into the building? MS COOK The following day. MR HATTINGH The following day. After you were rescued, where were you taken to, Mrs Cook? MS COOK We were taken to the Cathedral which is next door to Khanya House. MR HATTINGH Yes, and for how long did you remain there? MS COOK We remained there until after breakfast. MR HATTINGH Did some of the others leave - were all seven of you there? MS COOK Yes. MR HATTINGH Because I notice in Bishop Umkhumishe's statement again, on page 3 thereof he says "Mr McGuinness then invited us all to come to the presbytery for a wash and a cup of coffee. After a few minutes we all went back to Khanya House to collect our clothes and belongings, using torches." Did you go back? MS COOK I don't - no, I did not go back. MR HATTINGH Can you say whether they went back? MS COOK I don't know whether they went back that evening, I was invited to a room where I stayed for the rest of the night. MR HATTINGH Did you ever collect your belongings? MS COOK During the fire itself, I had, when we were exiting onto the balcony I grabbed my hand luggage, which was all I had with me on my way out. MR HATTINGH And so you had ...(intervention) MS COOK And so I did not need to go back. The only reason I went back the following day to find it cordoned off, was to get a prayer book which I had not been able to grab. MR HATTINGH From this statement I get the impression that at least some of the people went back that very same evening, that same night after the fire was put out, and collected clothes and belongings. You don't know about that? MS COOK I don't know about that. MR HATTINGH Do you know whether any damage was caused inside the rooms on the second floor where you'd been sleeping? Any fire damage? MS COOK We did return to the building days later and we were taken into the building by, I don't know whether he was General or whatever, Krappies Engelbrecht, and then we accessed the building and I could see the extent of the damage then. My bedroom was not burnt inside. MR HATTINGH Not burnt inside? MS COOK No. MR HATTINGH Did you go into the other bedrooms? MS COOK No, I went into my own. MR HATTINGH What about the carpet on ...(intervention) MS COOK The carpet was burnt. MR HATTINGH Totally? MS COOK Yes. MR HATTINGH Any other fire damage along the passageway? MS COOK Yes. MR HATTINGH What? MS COOK There was holes in the floor. MR HATTINGH Holes in the floor? MS COOK Mm. MR HATTINGH So were they wooden floors? MS COOK Well I would presume from that. MR HATTINGH You were telling us what you saw now. MS COOK Yes, there were holes in the floor. MR HATTINGH Wooden floor? Or couldn't you see? MS COOK I didn't notice whether it was wooden. MR HATTINGH You didn't notice. When you were asked to give a statement or a report of the events, were you told what it was for? MS COOK This report here that you're referring to? MR HATTINGH Yes, yes, your statement. MS COOK No, I was under the impression that it was just a summary of events for record keeping because I had already submitted a report to the police and we also submitted a report to Gen Engelbrecht or whatever his name was. MR HATTINGH Did you at any stage see flames in the corridor on the second floor? MS COOK Yes. MR HATTINGH When was that? MS COOK That was after I had run down the passage, I turned around before entering my bedroom and there were flames at the end of the second floor. MR HATTINGH And did the flames remain there, or did it come towards you? MS COOK I didn't wait to find out. MR HATTINGH But it didn't come towards you at a great speed? MS COOK I never looked again. MR HATTINGH And could you determine whether the fire had actually reached the area where the door to your bedroom was? MS COOK At what stage? MR HATTINGH At any stage, either that night or later when you went back there to have a look at the building. MS COOK Yes, it had. MR HATTINGH Why do you say that? MS COOK Because it was burnt. MR HATTINGH And the door, the door to ...(intervention) MS COOK The hole that I'm talking about was very close to my bedroom. MR HATTINGH And the door of your bedroom, was that damaged at all? MS COOK No. MR HATTINGH No. MS COOK Not that I can remember. MR HATTINGH Now is there any reason why you make no mention of the fact that you bumped against something and that it fell over and the contents spilt onto the floor and even onto yourself? In your statement. MS COOK I didn't complete this in great detail as I have testified here, and this was merely a summary. MR HATTINGH But surely ...(intervention) MS COOK I had reported already to the police who I thought were the relevant bodies. MR HATTINGH Surely that's a most important detail, not so? That could explain what caused the fire. MS COOK No, I don't agree with you. MR HATTINGH Why not? MS COOK Because that could not have caused the fire, I was not below that level. MR HATTINGH Well it could have accelerated the fire. Let me put it to you this way, it was very clear proof of the fact that somebody had deliberately set the building alight and that they'd been to your floor and that they'd left the container with some liquid in it on your floor. Why did you not mention that? MS COOK I cannot explain why, as I said I had reported it to the police and I had reported it to Gen Engelbrecht. MR HATTINGH In your statement the next day you say you did report it. MS COOK Yes. MR HATTINGH And this statement was made, how long after the event? MS COOK It was on the 23rd, was it not? MR HATTINGH Just refresh my memory, the date of the ... MS COOK 23rd of October. CHAIRPERSON 11 days. MR HATTINGH Some 12 days later? MS COOK That is right. MR HATTINGH Yes. And the next day you must have been still in a state of shock? MS COOK Yes. MR HATTINGH Yet you remembered to mention it then? MS COOK I did. MR HATTINGH And when you 12 days later sat down in your home, did you type out the statement yourself? MS COOK Yes, I did. MR HATTINGH And when you typed statement, you omit to mention it? MS COOK That is so. MR HATTINGH There's something else that you didn't mention and I'm just trying to look for it now. Yes, the cord, the glowing cord that you observed, why do we not find any reference to that in your statement? MS COOK As I said, this was a summary and was not in great detail. ...(end of side A of tape) MR HATTINGH According to Bishop Umkhumishe, he managed to climb down the fire escape, right down to the ground and then he returned to the second floor and shouted to everybody to escape along the northern exit. Did you hear him say that? MS COOK No. MR HATTINGH It must have taken him a while to climb down to the fire escape to the ground floor to come back, not so? MS COOK I really don't know. MR HATTINGH At the time when you saw the fire going in the passage, going into your bedroom, was he still in the corridor? MS COOK I'm not sure. MR HATTINGH He says also in his statement, on page 2 thereof, that when you observed, you people - I'm reading from about the middle of the second paragraph "I ran back to the fire brigade, but without success. I ran back to Khanya House, as I did not know why the four could not come out the way we did. I ran up the stairs intending to go and show them the way out, but as I opened the door I was confronted by a thick black cloud of smoke gushing out from the second floor corridor." One would have expected there to have been flames as well, not so, on your version? By that stage. MS COOK I would imagine so. MR HATTINGH Yes. Somebody mentioned the fact that empty containers, I think it's Bishop Umkhumishe again, were found inter alia on the second floor - if you'll bear with me a moment please, Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON Page 3. MR HATTINGH Page 3, thank you Mr Chairman. Yes, he says: "One inside the documentation room, the second in the passage of the first floor and two in the second floor, one inside an office room and the other in the corridor." Now that creates the impression with me that there was at least an office on the second floor as well. MS COOK There could have been that I was not aware of. MR HATTINGH Thank you, Mr Chairman, I have no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR HATTINGH CHAIRPERSON Thank you, Mr Hattingh. MR VAN DER MERWE I have no questions, thank you Mr Chairman. NO QUESTIONS BY MR VAN DER MERWE CHAIRPERSON Mr Nel? MR NEL Likewise, Mr Chairman, I've got no questions. NO QUESTIONS BY MR NEL CHAIRPERSON Mr Wagener? MR WAGENER Mr Chairman, I'm not sure, may I at this stage request from Ms Cambanis who will be testifying in this matter tomorrow, and what is the positions they held within the church? Because that may influence whatever questions I may ask to any witness. CHAIRPERSON Are you able to ...(indistinct) information? MS CAMBANIS Yes, I suspect Mr Wagener is interested in Brother Jude who will be testifying tomorrow, who was the Secretary-General of the Catholic Bishops Conference at the time of the incident. MR WAGENER Maybe I was asleep, but Mrs Cook was only in an administrative capacity. Is that what was said? CHAIRPERSON Verstrate was the Chair and Umkhumishe was the Deputy-Chair, Lambert was the Secretary. MS CAMBANIS The other two persons will be Mr Nunes ... CHAIRPERSON And Williams? MS CAMBANIS And Mr Williams, yes. They do not hold positions in the hierarchy of the ...(intervention) MR WAGENER No, I was referring to Mrs Cook, or maybe I should ask her herself. Exactly what position did you hold within the church at the time? MS COOK I was the Administrative Secretary of one of the Commissions which was called The Church and Work Commission. MR WAGENER Mr Chairman, then I have no questions to this witness, except if I may be permitted I'll try and contact Gen Engelbrecht tonight, just to get instructions on one small bit of evidence given here by this witness, but apart from that I've got no questions. CHAIRPERSON Are you saying the witness should stand down until tomorrow? MS COOK No, Mr Chairman, if anyone else wants to proceed, they're welcome. If I would then only be allowed to ask, or depending on what Mr Engelbrecht may say, just to put that to her, whether her evidence in respect of his position is correct or not. CHAIRPERSON Let me find out this, because initially when Ms Cambanis approached me, Mrs Cook is from Durban, what her flight arrangements are because that would be important for your purposes. MR WAGENER Mr Chairman, if that's the position, Mrs Cook is welcome to leave. NO QUESTIONS BY MR WAGENER CHAIRPERSON Thank you. You need not answer that, Mrs Cook. Thank you. Counsel? MR BUNN I have no questions, thank you Mr Chairman. NO QUESTIONS BY MR BUNN CHAIRPERSON Counsel? MR JOUBERT No questions, thank you Mr Chairman. NO QUESTIONS BY MR JOUBERT CHAIRPERSON Mr Lamey? CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR LAMEY Chairperson, just one question. Mrs Cook, who requested - I just want to get clarity, who requested you to make this report, this document which you call a report? MS COOK No-one spoke to me personally, but I was told by the Secretary, Rob Lambert, that it was required by the Bishops Conference. MR LAMEY You don't know for what purpose? MS COOK I presumed it was for records. MR LAMEY And you typed it out yourself? MS COOK I did, yes. MR LAMEY I see the wording "I know and understand the contents of this affidavit and have no objection in taking the prescribed oath. I do consider the prescribed oath to be binding on my conscience." Did you type that in? MS COOK I did, yes. MR LAMEY Did you also type the statement of Mr Lambert? MS COOK It is possible that I typed it, I cannot remember. MR LAMEY Because I see the set-out and the wording is exactly the same as in your statement. CHAIRPERSON Shouldn't we rather say "the ending"? MR LAMEY The end, the end thereof, yes Chairperson. MS COOK Yes. MR LAMEY Now did you know how to word the document to indicate that it's an affidavit and statement under oath? MS COOK No, I had no legal knowledge of how to draw up a document at all, it merely was a report that I put in my own words. MR LAMEY Where did you get the wording of that last paragraph from? MS COOK I was told that would be the wording to put at the end, by Rob Lambert. MR LAMEY But you didn't sign it under oath. MS COOK No, I didn't. MR LAMEY Could you give any reason why not? MS COOK Because I thought it was merely for record keeping. MR LAMEY But you're signing a document below which states that "I know and understand the contents of this affidavit and I have no objection to taking the prescribed oath." ...(intervention) MS CAMBANIS Chairperson, if my learned friend could just explain the reference of this. She said that it's a statement, repeatedly, that it was for record purposes, as far as she understood. She has never claimed that she was signing an affidavit. CHAIRPERSON If you can look at also the opening, probably, sentence, it doesn't say I'm doing this under oath, then immediately it would not fall under an affidavit as we know it, you and I. MR LAMEY Yes, Chairperson, but I would submit that from the closing paragraph it appears to be prima facie an intention to make it under oath and therefore it's just a peculiarity that I've picked up, which I fail to understand from the purpose of this document and which I tried to ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON But she's just answered and said somebody told her to put in those words. I think she said Lambert, if I'm not mistaken. She was not consciously saying to herself, 'this is an affidavit', they said 'end it this way' and she did exactly that. MR LAMEY Yes, but it's also relevant to a person signing a document and not putting a portion of the contents in the document that is in fact meaningless. CHAIRPERSON That is a matter for argument, you cannot take it up with the witness. MR LAMEY As it pleases you, Chairperson. I've no further questions, Chairperson. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR LAMEY CHAIRPERSON Mr du Plessis? CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR DU PLESSIS Thank you, Mr Chairman. Mrs Cook, how many statements did you make after the incident? MS COOK I made one to the police on the day after, or on the 12th of October, the morning of the 12th of October, and then again to Gen Engelbrecht. MR DU PLESSIS Did you make a written statement to Gen Engelbrecht? MS COOK No, I think I made a verbal statement. MR DU PLESSIS And then the one that you made here? MS COOK This a report that I made, yes. MR DU PLESSIS When you made this statement, did you have the statement that you made to the police in your possession? MS COOK No, I didn't. I never got a copy of that statement. MR DU PLESSIS Now Mrs Cook, have you had sight of the other affidavits of the other parties that we have been presented with? MS COOK Yes, I can see them. MR DU PLESSIS The statement of Sister Flannagan, Mr Lambert, Mr Verstrate and Bishop Umkhumishe. MS COOK I see them. MR DU PLESSIS Have you read them? MS COOK I have read them briefly. MR DU PLESSIS Is there anything in those statements that you disagree with? MS COOK I would have to re-read them in order to see that. MR DU PLESSIS Well I would appreciate it, Mr Chairman, it's important for purposes of the future cross-examination and argument, that I have an answer to that question. CHAIRPERSON I will allow her, if that is going to the crux of your questioning. MR DU PLESSIS Yes. I don't know if we should perhaps give her an opportunity to go through the statements to be able to give an answer, that's the problem. CHAIRPERSON It would be advisable not ...(indistinct) of all of us sitting here. We will adjourn shortly, please advise us when you're ready. MR DU PLESSIS Thank you, Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON Through Ms Cambanis. Thank you, we'll adjourn. COMMITTEE ADJOURNS ON RESUMPTION ROSEMARY FLORENCE COOK (s.u.o.) CHAIRPERSON Mrs Cook, have you had sufficient time? MS COOK Thank you, Mr Chairperson, I have had I think. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Mr du Plessis. CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR DU PLESSIS (Cont) Thank you, Mr Chairman. You've had an opportunity to read the statements? MS COOK Yes, I have. MR DU PLESSIS Thank you. And is there anything on those statements of the other parties that you differ from? MS COOK I'm not able to comment in full on these statements as there are many things in here that I'm not aware of, but what I am aware of, I can tell you what I do not agree with. MR DU PLESSIS Yes, would you please. MS COOK On the first page of Bishop Umkhumishe's statement, towards the bottom of the page it says "We were all fumbling in thick darkness" MR DU PLESSIS Yes. MS COOK I would say it wasn't that thick, although it was dark. And then on page 2, the first paragraph, I see it is not the same as mine and I would dispute some of that. MR DU PLESSIS Well give us an indication exactly what would you dispute. Are you referring to the first paragraph on the second page of Bishop Umkhumishe's affidavit? MS COOK That's is right. MR DU PLESSIS Now what exactly do you not agree with? MS COOK "They returned and rushed to her room where she was still in deep sleep. They shook and shouted at her to get up. This took some time." We didn't go to her room, it appears as though we went back down the passageway to her room, from how I interpreted that. MR DU PLESSIS Yes, but he doesn't say that, he simply doesn't say, he doesn't refer to the route that you took to the room, but you surely don't dispute that you all went to her room, remained outside and the window was broken and - just tell us who went into the room. MS COOK Rob Lambert went into the room. MR DU PLESSIS He was the only one who went into the room? MS COOK He opened the door so that we could go in as well to assist her. MR DU PLESSIS Right, so you all went in? You all went in? MS COOK It was, I think it was Rob and Roddy and myself. MR DU PLESSIS Alright. So if he simply says "They returned and rushed to her room where she was still in a deep sleep" that more-or-less accords with your version? MS COOK Sort of. MR DU PLESSIS Right, what else do you disagree with there? MS COOK They said they closed themselves inside that room, but the smoke began to get in at the bottom. We weren't enclosed in that room. I don't know what room he was talking about. MR DU PLESSIS Alright. It seems that they're talking about Sister Bridget's room, but we'll have to ask him. But you say you were not, you didn't close yourselves in that room? MS COOK No. MR DU PLESSIS Alright. What else do you disagree with? MS COOK That is it. MR DU PLESSIS You agree with the rest of the contents of that affidavit? MS COOK The sections that I'm aware of. MR DU PLESSIS Yes, the sections - obviously, I'm not asking you to confirm under oath those sections that you are not aware of, but the places where you were present. MS COOK Yes. MR DU PLESSIS You agree with the version. In any of the other affidavits, is there anything else you disagree with? MS COOK No. MR DU PLESSIS Alright. This light that you saw on the floor, was the light on the stairway or was it in the passage? MS COOK It was in the passage. MR DU PLESSIS And I gathered from your evidence you saw it clearly. MS COOK Yes. MR DU PLESSIS And you also saw the cord clearly? MS COOK I saw a section of cord next to it, yes. MR DU PLESSIS Yes. You saw it clearly? MS COOK Yes. MR DU PLESSIS Alright. Do you know if there - or let me ask you this, did you at any occasion whatsoever, see any flames on the second floor, while you were there? MS COOK Yes, I did. MR DU PLESSIS When? MS COOK When I was about to enter the bedroom, my bedroom, after running down the passage. MR DU PLESSIS Where were the flames? MS COOK At the beginning of the second floor corridor. MR DU PLESSIS That was at the beginning of the southern staircase, is that correct? MS COOK That is correct. MR DU PLESSIS You see, because when you testified previously during cross-examination of Mr Hattingh, you testified that you saw a glow in the vicinity of Bridget Flannagan's door. MS COOK I saw a glow on my way when I was running. When I had reached my bedroom and had turned back, I then saw flames. MR DU PLESSIS You see, Mrs Cook, you said you saw a glow in the vicinity of Bridget's door, towards the southern staircase, "I entered into my bedroom and we determined that she was not with us." You did not testify that you had seen any flames. MS COOK As far as I recall, I think I did. In my telling of the story, I think I did. MS CAMBANIS That is correct, Chair. I will find the reference. CHAIRPERSON Bluish and green glow, as if coming from the ground on the side of the passage, more-or-less to the vicinity of Sister Bridget Flannagan. More-or-less. MR DU PLESSIS Yes, but I understood that to be flames not in the passage on the second floor, Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON You understood that to be the cord, the bluish/greenish? MR DU PLESSIS No, no, I understood that she saw flames coming from the ground floor, but not flames inside the passage. But I won't make anything further of this if you say that the evidence was that she saw flames. I can't recall that. CHAIRPERSON No, no, I don't have it as flames, I have it as a glow. MR DU PLESSIS As a glow. Yes, that is - sorry, Mr Chairman, that is my note as well, it was a glow. She didn't testify that there were flames. MS PATEL Sorry, Honourable Chairperson, if I may come in - well I note the subject of what we think we heard, I've got a note that the witness said that "I was afraid", she was set on getting out, shouted to her colleagues that she can't get out that way, then went back to the bedroom noticed a fire along the corridor and realised that it was outside Sister Flannagan's room and that "she was not with us." That's what my note says. ADV SANDI Well my note only refers to bluish/green flow on the second floor. ADV BOSMAN I have a note saying, Chairperson, "I saw flames before entering my bedroom." MS COOK Sorry, if I can perhaps give a bit of clarity. It was at that stage that I looked back and I saw the flames, just as I was entering the bedroom and I reported that it was that that made me think that, of Sister Bridget Flannagan, as it was outside her bedroom, and then on that we remembered that she was not with us. MR DU PLESSIS So you are quite certain that you saw flames outside her bedroom door. You saw flames outside Bridget Flannagan's room, is that correct? MS COOK That is correct. MR DU PLESSIS Clearly? MS COOK Clearly. MR DU PLESSIS Alright. Where were the flames situated? On the floor, on the roof, on the wall, or where was it burning from? From the floor? MS COOK It was burning from the floor. MR DU PLESSIS Alright. And this little light with the cord that you saw, where was that situated? MS COOK That was also situated in that same vicinity. MR DU PLESSIS Now let us just take the moment before you entered the bedroom. You saw flames burning at Sister Flannagan's bedroom and before that, not behind the flames but before the flames, you saw this little light glow on the floor, is that correct? MS COOK That is correct. MR DU PLESSIS Right. When you went down the staircase you did not reach the first floor, is that correct? MS COOK That is correct. MR DU PLESSIS Can you recall - you couldn't see anything, could you? MS COOK No. I could not see any flames, no. MR DU PLESSIS You testified that you were met by intense heat and smoke. MS COOK That is correct. MR DU PLESSIS And you saw no glow of fire. MS COOK No. MR DU PLESSIS What did you hear? MS COOK I didn't hear anything. MR DU PLESSIS Alright. So at that moment you didn't hear anything. MS COOK No. MR DU PLESSIS Right. Now during the course of these hearings you consulted with Ms Cambanis, is that correct? MS COOK Yes. MR DU PLESSIS You told her what you told us now. MS COOK I don't think I went into detail, no. I never sat with her and explained what I was going to say, no. MR DU PLESSIS Did you never ever explain to her what you were going to testify? MS COOK No. MR DU PLESSIS When was the first time that she saw this statement of yours? MS COOK It was during the course of this morning. MR DU PLESSIS I must say, Mrs Cook, I find that very strange that you, throughout the course of these hearings which has lasted from Monday until today, had not once, before you testified, that's how you want us to understand it, explained to Ms Cambanis what your view of the matter was and what happened. MS COOK I did not explain to her in any detail. MR DU PLESSIS So she called you as a witness not knowing what you were going to testify? MS COOK She had read my affidavit by then, when she called me this afternoon. MR DU PLESSIS And did she consult with any of the other people, any of the other representatives of the church here, who were present here throughout the week? MS COOK Not in my presence. MR DU PLESSIS So you don't know if they had told her what they know about the matter? MS COOK No, not in any detail. MR DU PLESSIS You see, because the reason, and I want to put this to you, this is the last point I'm going to make, I want to put this to you, is that quite a lot of the evidence that you have presented here today could have been dealt with especially by my clients as experts, explosive experts, in respect of, for instance, the fire, what you perceived of the fire and the question of the possibilities of what you saw and the probabilities of what you saw in respect of the fire. Now because nothing was said to them of your version, they obviously couldn't comment on that and they couldn't testify to that and for that reason I will argue that your evidence would have no weight whatsoever in these hearings. Do you have any comment on that? MS COOK I do not know the procedures. MR DU PLESSIS Thank you, Mr Chairman, I have no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR DU PLESSIS CHAIRPERSON Thank you, Mr du Plessis. I see Mr Cornelius is ... MR VAN DER MERWE Mr Chairman, I have instructions from Mr Cornelius, he has no questions. NO QUESTIONS BY MR CORNELIUS CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Let's ask Ms Patel first before you re-examine, Ms Cambanis. MS PATEL Thank you, Honourable Chairperson, I have no questions. NO QUESTIONS BY MS PATEL CHAIRPERSON Do you have any questions? ADV BOSMAN I have no questions. CHAIRPERSON Advocate Sandi? ADV SANDI No questions as such, Mr Chairman, except that I want to apologise to Mrs Cook, because I said to her I could not find in my notes anything that refers to flames on the second floor. I've since found it as I went down my notebook. Sorry about that, thank you. CHAIRPERSON He's got a tiny bit, Mr Wagener. You may, Mr Wagener. CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR WAGENER Mrs Cook, thank you. I spoke to Gen Engelbrecht during the brief adjournment, so I can perhaps just put one or two things to you. Did I hear you correctly that you said that you gave a statement to him the day after the fire? MS COOK No, it was some days later, probably about a week or ten days later that we were called to Khanya House to meet with him. MR WAGENER Yes, because he told me that on Wednesday the 19th of October 1988, he was at the scene of the fire with Gen Jaap Joubert and a local Detective, a Mr Karelse, where he met Brother Jude. He can remember him. Were you also present on that day? MS COOK No. MR WAGENER Well he further tells me that he never took a statement from you, as far as he can remember you victims supplied statements via your own lawyers or the lawyers for the church, but he, Engelbrecht, never took a statement from you. MS COOK It was a verbal statement as far as I can remember, he was taking notes. MR WAGENER But you can't - it was not on the 19th? MS COOK No. MR WAGENER Mr Chairman, I can't take this any further at present. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR WAGENER CHAIRPERSON Thank you, Mr Wagener. Ms Cambanis, any re-examination? MS CAMBANIS None, thank you Chair. NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MS CAMBANIS CHAIRPERSON Thank you very much, Mrs Cook, you are excused. WITNESS EXCUSED CHAIRPERSON This brings us to the end of today. MR VAN DER MERWE We were just wondering about the time to start tomorrow, Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON Would the usual time be alright? MR VAN DER MERWE I was wondering whether 9 o'clock would not be better, Mr Chairman. I say that with all due respect. CHAIRPERSON Ms Cambanis was complaining bitterly to what I've subjected her to, coming at nine thirty, because of the traffic. Could we reassemble tomorrow, our final day, at nine thirty. We adjourn until tomorrow. COMMITTEE ADJOURNS