amntrans AMNESTY HEARINGS 2000-09-04 DURBAN 1 JUDE FRANCIS AM4011/96 https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=54456&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/2000/200904db.htm MR MOERANE With the Chairperson's permission I now call Mr Jude Francis. JUDE FRANCIS (sworn states) EXAMINATION BY MOERANE Thank you Chairperson. Mr Francis, how old are you? MR FRANCIS I'm 36. MR MOERANE And where do you reside? MR FRANCIS I reside at the Esplanade. MR MOERANE Victoria Embankment? MR FRANCIS That is correct. MR MOERANE MR FRANCIS That is correct. MR MOERANE Were you charged with those events or incidents in the matter of State vs Buthelezi? MR FRANCIS That is correct. MR MOERANE And were you convicted? MR FRANCIS Yes. MR MOERANE What sentence did you receive? MR FRANCIS 6 years. MR MOERANE And what portion of that sentence did you serve? MR FRANCIS I think it was four years. MR MOERANE When were you released? MR FRANCIS I was released around October 1990. MR MOERANE October 1990. Yes. Is it correct that you were involved in both incidents? MR FRANCIS Correct. MR MOERANE What was your role in the Chatsworth Magistrate's Court incident? MR FRANCIS My role was that I supplied an explosive device to Raymond Metheraj. MR MOERANE Please raise your voice? MR FRANCIS I supplied the explosive device to Raymond Metheraj. MR MOERANE Yes, did you know that that device would be used in damaging the Chatsworth Magistrate's Court building? MR FRANCIS I did not know the intended target. MR MOERANE But did you appreciate that it was going to be used in destroying some property? MR FRANCIS I knew it was going to be used for an operation. MR MOERANE Yes. And did you subsequently learn that the operation had been damage to the Chatsworth Magistrate's Court? MR FRANCIS That is correct. MR MOERANE With regard to the Rajbansi incident, what was your particular role? MR FRANCIS My particular role was that together with Veejay Ramlakan we reconnoitred the intended target and I received an explosive device from Dr Ramlakan to store and on the day of the operation itself I gave that device back to him. MR MOERANE MR FRANCIS Yes. MR MOERANE Do you associate yourself with Dr Ramlakan's reasons firstly for choosing these two targets? MR FRANCIS Absolutely. MR MOERANE And do you associate yourself with his motives, political motives, for the doing what he and the others and you did regarding these two incidents? MR FRANCIS Correct. MR MOERANE Did you derive any financial or other material benefit from your actions with regard to these two incidents? MR FRANCIS No. MR MOERANE Were these actions done under the auspices of Operation Butterfly? MR FRANCIS Yes. MR MOERANE Chairperson, that is the evidence. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MOERANE CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS CAMBANIS Sir, in relation to this incident, the two incidents for which you applied, did you have any contact with Mr Raymond Lalla? MR FRANCIS No. MS CAMBANIS Thank you Chairperson. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS CAMBANIS MS MOHAMED I have no questions, Chairperson. NO QUESTIONS BY MS MOHAMED CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MAPOMA Did you belong to any MK unit at all? MR FRANCIS Yes. MR MAPOMA And who were your co-members? MR FRANCIS At that time I didn't recruit anyone, I was given a task of ...(indistinct) logistical support to Raymond Metheraj's unit. MR MAPOMA There is something that is not clear now, you say you provided the explosive device to Mr Ramlakan and at the same time Mr Dhanpal Naidoo did exactly that? MR FRANCIS I think if you listen to his evidence to point A to point B, that device was transferred to - Dhanpal transferred that to Mr Ramlakan and from point B to point C, Mr Ramlakan give the device to me to store. MR MAPOMA I see. No further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MAPOMA MR SIBANYONI MR FRANCIS Correct. MR SIBANYONI Right, insofar as the operation at the Chatsworth Magistrate's Court, who had told that to ensure that there should be no death or injury to persons, the device was placed when there would be no persons there, how was it ensured in the case of Rajbansi that there should be no death or injury to persons? What precautionary measures were taken? MR FRANCIS Well we had a discussion, I had a discussion together with Dr Veejay Ramlakan. I think it was the night before the actual operation. We looked at the target itself and we saw the approximity of the houses around Mr Rajbansi. My advice was to Dr Ramlakan then, was that you must sure that the operation that you carry out does not endanger the lives of people living around that area and subsequently I think we changed the - Dr Veejay Ramlakan supposed to speak to I think Raymond Metheraj in terms of changing the explosive that would be used for that operation. MR SIBANYONI Why, was it changed from an explosive which was more powerful to the one which was lesser powerful or what was it? MR FRANCIS The intended explosive then, if I recall was I think it was a powerful explosive. I take it we said that should be downgraded to a mini-limpet which will do minimum damage. MR SIBANYONI We are told that the aim was to send a message to the people who were participating in the House of Representatives but not to injure them, is that so? MR FRANCIS That is correct. MR SIBANYONI Thank you Mr Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Any re-examination? MR LAX Sorry, before you do. I just want to confirm, you didn't have any personal agendas with Mr Rajbansi? MR FRANCIS No. RE-EXAMINATION BY MR MOERANE Thank you Chairperson. Now what time was the device supposed to detonate? MR MOERANE Well the specifics of the operation itself, I wasn't part of that, that was taken - the decision was taken by Raymond Metheraj. MR MOERANE I see. Well it is common cause that in fact it detonated at 10.35 at night? MR FRANCIS That is correct. MR MOERANE On a Sunday night? MR FRANCIS That is correct. MR MOERANE At that time, at that place, is it expected that there would be persons walking up and down the street? MR FRANCIS Well during that period on a Sunday I think there's minimum movement of people around that place. MR MOERANE I see. Thank you. No further questions. May the applicant be excused? Thank you Chairperson. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MOERANE WITNESS EXCUSED