amntrans AMNESTY HEARINGS 2000-09-04 DURBAN 1 SIBOSISO MBONGWA https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=54460&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/2000/200904db.htm MR MOERANE With the Chairperson's permission I call Sibosiso Mbongwa. SIBOSISO MBONGWA (sworn states) EXAMINATION BY MR MOERANE Thank you Chairperson. Do you also go by the surname of Ndlazi? MR MBONGWA That is correct, I did to a point. MR MOERANE At one point? MR MBONGWA That is correct. MR MOERANE Certainly when you appeared before his lordship, Mr Justice Tyrian, you went by that name? MR MBONGWA That is correct. MR MOERANE And you are also known as Sihle? S-I-H-L-E? MR MBONGWA That is correct. MR MOERANE Yes. MR MBONGWA How old are you? MR MBONGWA 47. MR MOERANE And where do you reside? MR MBONGWA Woodlands, Durban, but normally I'm in Johannesburg. MR MOERANE Yes. You appeared as an accused person, accused number 4, in the matter of the State vs Buthelezi and others? MR MBONGWA That is correct. MR MOERANE You were charged with amongst other charges, paragraph 1, annexure D, bundle 2, page 46. It was alleged that in about September 1985 you being a trained member of the ANC entered the Republic from Swaziland and you were taken to Durban by Dr Dlomo and Dr Ramlakan who were accused numbers 2 and 3 respectively. MR MBONGWA That is correct. MR MOERANE And it was alleged that you were appointed by the ANC as commander of a group of ANC members and in this capacity you are responsible for training Dr Ramlakan, Mr Audray Qonda Msomi, one of the applicants, Mr Sipho Stanley Mbele and Mr Bawana Ngucu who was an accused, accused number 10 in the proceedings? MR MBONGWA That is correct. MR MOERANE It was alleged that you are responsible for training them in matters relating to the ANC and as well as in the use of explosives and explosive devices? MR MBONGWA That is correct. MR MOERANE You were convicted of entering South Africa as alleged and with regard to the allegation in paragraph 4, your conviction was based on the following basis and I'll read out what the learned judge had to say on page 245 of bundle 2, last line "The State has failed to prove the allegation in paragraph 4 of annexure D. That accused number 4 was appointed a commander of ANC members and the only evidence that he was responsible for training persons in the use of explosives is the evidence that he trained accused number 12 and that was Vusimusi Wesley Mashobo and a person on one occasion, on political matters and explained to them about booby traps and that he spoke about reconnaissance, surveillance and revolution." To that limited extent, the State has proved the allegation in paragraph 4 of annexure D? MR MBONGWA That is correct. MR MOERANE Yes. MR MOERANE The court found that the lecture which you gave accused number 12 and C was an act which also constituted contravention of the terrorism provision in the Act? MR MBONGWA That is correct. MR MOERANE And you were sentenced to what period of imprisonment? MR MBONGWA 12 years. MR MOERANE 12 years and when were you released from custody? MR MBONGWA I was released in May 1991. MR MOERANE Were you the last of the group to have been released? MR MBONGWA That is correct. MR MOERANE You are applying for amnesty for the acts for which you were convicted? MR MBONGWA That is correct. MR MOERANE You do admit though that you were appointed a commander? MR MBONGWA I agree, I was. MR MOERANE Yes. Now please tell the learned Committee about this appointment of yourself as commander? Commander of what and who appointed you and what were you to command? MR MBONGWA I was appointed by the African National Congress and members of the High Command of Umkhonto weSizwe to take over the command of an operation which was to be known as Operation Butterfly. That instruction was specifically conveyed to me whilst in Maputo. I had to prepare to take over that command. It entailed quite a number of issues some of which have been related to this Committee by Dr Ramlakan. Without worrying the Committee with the details, I will set out the context in which Operation Butterfly was conceived and how I operationalized it. Sometime in the mid '80s, probably 1984 or so forth the leaders of the African National Congress had to make a review and evaluate its conduct of war inside South Africa. The strategic objective has been at all times has been to overthrow the then established South African Government. The issue as to how soon had to be answered within the context of our evaluation at that time. One of the problems was the need to integrate the political machinery as well as the armed machinery. A further restructuring of the structures of the ANC. I could be recalled that from 1969 the African National Congress had what was known by then as the RC, that is the Revolutionary Council which had been specifically tasked to execute armed operations in South Africa. However, ...(intervention) MR MOERANE Was that after the Morogoro Conference? MR MBONGWA That was after the Morogoro Conference. MR MOERANE Yes. MR MBONGWA By 1985 that structure was dissolved therefore it was replaced by what became known as the Political Military Committee. I was therefore tasked to create the area Political Military Committee in South Africa specifically in Natal, APMC. The objectives of the need for that APMC, one was to weld together, integrate all the political machinery and the MK machinery. In other words, one of the problems as alluded to by Dr Ramlakan, we had, so to say, to locate Lusaka inside South Africa itself so that we will be in a position to give answers to the situation as it developed by then, now the issue of communication and so forth. However, APMC itself was structured as follows. I was head of it. The political aspect of it was handled by Leonard or Trix. The propaganda aspect of it was dealt with by Kevin. There had to be an intelligence component in it in as much as there was to be logistics component in it as part of that structure. However, at that time I had to deal with those issues. Only two appointments had been made at that time. That is myself and Trix. MR MOERANE What were the other names of Trix? MR MBONGWA Terrence Triam. MR MOERANE Yes, proceed please? MR MBONGWA Kevin was to be on the propaganda aspect of it. Other posts had not been filled at that time and those appointments were not my responsibility and they had to be appointed by higher headquarters. In other words, we were looking at an all round offensive against the South African Government with the intention and objective to overthrow it by means that would include the use of force. MR MOERANE Yes. Do you associate yourself with the political motivation for your actions, all your actions as outlined by Dr Ramlakan and the others who have given evidence? MR MBONGWA That is correct. MR MOERANE Now in documents furnished to you referring particularly to bundle 1, it is alleged that you are implicated in the Amanzimtoti explosion at Sanlam Shopping Centre, 23rd December 1985. What's your response to that allegation? MR MBONGWA I learnt of it after the fact. In other words after it had happened. MR MOERANE Can I assume from that reply that you had not planned it? MR MBONGWA That is correct. MR MOERANE Was that particular act within the contemplation of what you had generally planned? MR MBONGWA No. MR MOERANE Did you derive any financial or other benefit from your activities? MR MBONGWA Not at all and I did not expect it. MR MOERANE So are you applying for amnesty for the acts for which you were convicted in the trial and also the other acts and involvement that you have referred to in your evidence today? MR MBONGWA That is correct. MR MOERANE That's the evidence, Chairperson. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MOERANE CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS CAMBANIS Thank you. Sir, would it be correct to describe Operation Butterfly as an attempt by Umkhonto weSizwe to increase the number of units, MK units operational in the Durban and surrounding area. Is that one way of putting it? MR MBONGWA In fact to do whatever that could bring our liberation much closer that includes that. MS CAMBANIS Yes. MR MBONGWA But not limited to. MS CAMBANIS That was part of the ...(indistinct)? MR MBONGWA That is correct. MS CAMBANIS And the command structures in Swaziland, did you have occasion to meet with Mr Raymond Lalla in Swaziland? MR MBONGWA That is correct. MS CAMBANIS In relation to Operation Butterfly? MR MBONGWA That is correct. MS CAMBANIS And do you know what year? Can you remember more or less what year that would have been? MR MBONGWA It was sometime around about 1985. MS CAMBANIS 1985. Mr Lalla will tell the Committee that discussions relating to Operation Butterfly in fact began sometime before that and I think you agree because you took over - he has given evidence that you took over the command? MR MBONGWA That is correct. MS CAMBANIS For Operation Butterfly? MR MBONGWA That is correct. MS CAMBANIS And from who was that? MR MBONGWA Tami Zulu. MS CAMBANIS Who is Mr Sithole that was referred to by Dr Ramlakan? MR MBONGWA I know Benjam or Sithole but I had nothing to do with him in terms of operations. MS CAMBANIS Yes. Was he not prior to your command based internally? MR MBONGWA I heard about it. MS CAMBANIS Yes. And Mr Tami Zulu was based externally in Swaziland, is that correct? MR MBONGWA That is correct. MS CAMBANIS Yes. Now my instructions from Mr Lalla is that he recalls Dr Ramlakan saying that he was also - Mr Lalla was also involved in logistics. I haven't had that note but he picked that up, he says that he was not involved in the logistics of Operation Butterfly. Those are my instructions. Do you have any knowledge of that? MR MBONGWA No, I don't know what took place between Dr Ramlakan and Raymond Lalla because of the principle of the need to know basis. MS CAMBANIS Yes. MR MBONGWA But yes we did discuss with Raymond Lalla specific aspects of the Butterfly project. MS CAMBANIS What aspects for example? MR MBONGWA Broadly it was in terms of the context and how that strategy needs to be operationalized. The issue was integrate the political machinery as well as the military machinery. Continue to develop strong viable underground structures of Umkhonto weSizwe so is of the political machinery of the ANC, the other broad strategy obviously continue with activities that must undermine South African State. Come out in support of our people who are on strike, that will be workers, generally isolate the regime and ensure that there is proper co-ordination and functioning between the political activity which must inform MK activity. MS CAMBANIS Yes and then just to summarise, your knowledge of Operation Butterfly begins in 1985 approximately? MR MBONGWA I would say that not necessarily in 1985. There had been prior discussions including the Kabwe Conference. MS CAMBANIS Yes. MR MBONGWA It is the culmination of these things that creates or produces among other things Operation Butterfly. MS CAMBANIS Thank you very much. Thank you Chairperson, I have nothing further. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS CAMBANIS CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS MOHAMED Thank you Chairperson. Mr Mbongwa, did you know Thuso Tshika around this time in 1985? MR MBONGWA Yes. MS MOHAMED How did you know him? MR MBONGWA At one time I gave him training but I did not know who he was. MS MOHAMED But you did give him training? MR MBONGWA Yes. Okay, now I want to take you to page 47 of bundle 2. This is actually some of the charges that you faced in State vs Buthelezi. In paragraph 7 the charges state that you had improvised accused number 6 who I think it the applicant Audway Msomi who acted under your instructions together with others and they placed a bomb at Mobeni Post Office. Can you just confirm that or would you like to comment on that? MR MBONGWA Not true. MS MOHAMED So you didn't give that instruction? MR MBONGWA No. MS MOHAMED Thank you. Sorry, Chairperson, if I just may? Do you know if anybody had given an instruction of that nature? MR MBONGWA All I can say is on my arrival inside the country I did meet with Dr Sibongiseni Dlomo, I did meet with Dr Veejay Ramlakan. I did meet with Lulamele Khlate. I did give general instructions that military operations must be continued and be intensified. I did give that instruction but I gave it to them. MS MOHAMED So it's possible that this instruction would have been floated down? MR MBONGWA The? MS MOHAMED It's possible that these instructions would have been floated down to other members of the cells? MR MBONGWA They had to do that, it was their duty to do so. MS MOHAMED Thank you Chairperson, I have no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS MOHAMED MR LAX If I could just interpose? Just to follow up on this question so it's crystal clear. That incident referred to at paragraph 7 on page 47 of bundle 2, was there any doubt in your mind that was a bona fide action on behalf of MK? MR MBONGWA Repeat? MR LAX Is there any doubt in your mind that that was a properly authorised action on behalf of MK? In other words it was the bombing at the post office at Mobeni, 8th December 1985? MR MBONGWA Oh, the post office was to me a perfect target, legitimate target. It had to be bombed. MR LAX And that would have been in terms of the kind of general instruction that you gave them to intensify the armed struggle? MR MBONGWA That is correct. MR LAX Thank you. CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MAPOMA Thank you. Mr Mbongwa, we have at this hearing present persons who happened to be injured during the bombing at the Mobeni Post Office. They were ordinary civilians and they are here now. What would you say to them, what message would you pass to them? MR MBONGWA I would have preferred it to give a very broad answer to that but the first and the immediate one would be to express apology regarding that particular incident in terms of those who were injured. I could not know about the specifics regarding the operation itself save to say that the post office itself to me was a legitimate target but obviously one would have expected that certain precautions in line with what has already been outlined by my colleagues. MR MAPOMA Now the Amanzimtoti bombing for which Andrew Zondo was responsible was an MK operation, no doubt about it. Is that not so? MR MBONGWA Depending on the context. What I can say, I confirm that Zondo was a member of the African National Congress. I confirm that he was a member of Umkhonto weSizwe. MR MAPOMA And that operation was it not falling within the Butterfly Project operations? MR MBONGWA No. Within Butterfly Amanzimtoti was not planned or contemplated. But yes, it was carried out by one of us and you cannot deny that he was part of us, he was and we accept that. MR LAX Can I just clarify something? Was he part of the Butterfly structure or was he part of MK when you say he was "one of us". MR MBONGWA No, he was part of MK. He was part of MK. MR LAX I just wanted to avoid that confusion. MR MAPOMA Yes, I mean while he was part of MK but he was conveyed by members of the Butterfly Operation? MR MBONGWA That is correct. MR MAPOMA Into the country. Thank you Chairperson, no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MAPOMA CHAIRPERSON I regret I haven't got the books with me at the moment, it's still in my office and I don't want to waste time getting them. My recollection is that the ANC in its public statements, you know it published certain books, submissions it made, indicated that at this period they sought to avoid the unnecessary killing of civilians. MR MBONGWA I confirm but I will add that to my understanding is that at all times it has tried to avoid that, not necessarily at a specific time, at all times. CHAIRPERSON I will agree with that if you're prepared to extend it that it was not the policy to recklessly throw bombs into crowded shops full of people. That sort of thing was not ANC policy, was it? MR MBONGWA That is correct. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Re-examination? MR MOERANE No re-examination. May the applicant be excused? Thank you. NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR MOERANE WITNESS EXCUSED MR MOERANE Chairperson, I do not know at what time the Committee normally adjourns. CHAIRPERSON We normally adjourn at four, we thought we might sit later this afternoon because we started very late. But when we discussed that and came to that conclusion we didn't think you would have got to nearly as many applicants as you have. What is your - I'm quite happy to hear your views. We have one matter set down. Oh no, we have two matters set down for tomorrow. MR MOERANE Yes. CHAIRPERSON How much longer do you think you'll be? MR MOERANE I don't know, I have only one more applicant left, Mr Msomi. CHAIRPERSON Well do you want to call him now and then take the adjournment so you can prepare to address us or would you rather take the adjournment now? There are other applicants who are also going to give evidence are there? Sorry, I overlooked that. So we will not finish this afternoon? MR MOERANE No. CHAIRPERSON What does 9 o'clock sound like to you? MR MOERANE It's fine Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Okay. Right in those circumstances I think we will take the adjournment now because despite the fact that we started late, I'm well aware of the fact that a number of you have been sitting here all day. We will adjourn till 9 o'clock tomorrow morning. COMMITTEE ADJOURNS