amntrans AMNESTY HEARINGS 2000-09-05 DURBAN 2 AUDWAY QONDA MSOMI https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=54461&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/2000/200905db.htm MR MOERANE With the Chairperson's permission I call to the stand Msomi. AUDWAY QONDA MSOMI (sworn states) EXAMINATION BY MR MOERANE Thank you Chairperson. Mr Msomi, how old are you? MR MSOMI I'm 35. MR MOERANE And where do you reside? MR MSOMI I reside at Lamontville, 57 ...(indistinct) Street. MR MOERANE You are applying for amnesty in respect of certain acts. Is it correct that you were one of the accused persons in the matter of State vs Buthelezi? MR MSOMI That is correct. MR MOERANE In that matter you were accused number 6? MR MSOMI That is correct. MR MOERANE You were charged with various offences under the Terrorism Provision of Internal Security Act, amongst which were being a member of the African National Congress? MR MSOMI That is correct. MR MOERANE Right. Chairperson, this will be annexure F, page 50 of bundle 2. It was also alleged in the indictment that in or about November 1985 you took the following items to Umgababa. Two VZ25 sub-machine guns, ...(indistinct), a remote control device, a block of TNT, a silencer for an AK-47 machine rifle, one electrical detonator, three electronic timing devices, one TM57 land mine and detonator, two books on explosives and other items were removed from a dead letter box which you had established? MR MSOMI That is correct. MR MOERANE It was also alleged in paragraph 4 ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON Sorry, when you say that is correct, are you saying it's correct that that was alleged in the indictment or it's correct that that happened? MR MSOMI It's correct that it happened. MR MOERANE In other words both that it's alleged in the indictment and that it actually happened? MR MSOMI Yes. MR MOERANE Yes and is it correct that it is alleged in the indictment that you were trained by one Stan in the use of the firearms, explosives and explosive devices? MR MSOMI Yes. MR MOERANE And did that happen? MR MSOMI Yes it did happen. MR MOERANE It's also alleged on page 52, paragraph 9, that in or about November 1985 that at or near Umgababa you established and/or assisted in the establishment of a dead letter box which contain a cache of arms consisting of the following: One VZ25 sub-machine gun, three loaded magazines for the sub-machine gun, one belt, two lamps, detonating fuse, one 200 gram block of TNT, one TM57 land mine, three detonators for a TM57 land mine, one remote control charge, one time switch, 22 electrical detonators? MR MSOMI That is correct. MR MOERANE And did you in fact establish the dead letter box containing those items? MR MSOMI Yes. CHAIRPERSON Can I interrupt again? It appears - it may only be superficial this, both these events happened in November 1985, paragraph 3 and 9, and a great many of the arms that you put into the dead letter box appear to be similar to the arms you yourself took to Umgababa, is that correct? MR MSOMI That is correct, Sir. CHAIRPERSON And you got a few more? MR MSOMI Yes, some of them were additional to the ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON Because there were more detonators, for example? MR MSOMI Yes. CHAIRPERSON And one of the sub-machine guns disappeared somewhere? MR MSOMI Yes indeed. CHAIRPERSON But the others are what you brought? MR MSOMI Yes, the others are what I brought. MR MOERANE Is it correct that you were convicted of those offences? Is it correct that you were convicted? MR MSOMI Yes that is correct. MR MOERANE And is it correct that the particulars of your conviction as they appear from page 248 up to 250 of bundle 2 are correct? MR MSOMI Yes indeed. MR MOERANE What sentence did you receive? MR MSOMI A sentence to 9 years imprisonment. MR MOERANE And what part of that sentence did you serve? MR MSOMI I served 4 years of it and then we were indemnified but all in all I've served six years imprisonment, that is including Section 29 detention. MR MOERANE You spent six years in custody? MR MSOMI Yes. MR MOERANE Yes. Is it correct that you are also applying for amnesty in respect of certain incidents which appear in bundle 1? These being incidents number 8? MR MSOMI That is correct. MR MOERANE That being alleged that on the 27th September 1985 and at O K Bazaars, West Street, two mini-limpet mines exploded? MR MSOMI That is correct. MR MOERANE You are also applying for indemnity in respect of incident number 9 wherein it is alleged that on the same day in Durban, at Game Discount World a limpet mine was exploded? MR MSOMI Yes indeed. MR MOERANE Now please tell the Honourable Committee about your involvement in these two incidents? MR MSOMI During that period of September I was the commander of the unit which consisted of Thuso Tshika and Bafungu. I was instructed, specifically instructed by Belgium, that we have to carry some operation in solidarity with the workers, that they were fighting for their living wages. During that period there was a dispute between the retained workers and the management. So I called the unit and I conveyed a message that was from Belgium that we're supposed to carry those operations between O K Bazaar and Game and the operation or the instruction were executed as they were ordered to us. MR MOERANE Who is or was Belgium? MR MSOMI Belgium is also Mduduzi Sithole. MR MOERANE What was he in the scheme of things? MR MSOMI Belgium I think - Mduduzi Sithole in the evidence that has been given by Dr Ramlakan, he did explain that before the formation of Area Political Military Committee he was one assigned to command the Kwa-Zulu Natal but after some problems we have to be sent back and then the Area Political Military Committee has to be formed and that is why we find that Sihle Mbongwa has to come to lead that Area Political Military Committee. MR MOERANE I see, so he was a commander? Your commander at the time? That's Belgium? MR MSOMI At the time yes, he was the commander of the unit of KZN. MR MOERANE Yes, he was also a member of the ANC, a member of Umkhonto weSizwe? MR MSOMI That is correct. MR MOERANE Now what time were these limpet mines timed to explode or detonate? MR MSOMI The limpet mines were timed to detonate after the shop had closed. That was after 5 o'clock and we did time them as we were instructed and they did explode as we had intended to explode after the shop had closed. MR MOERANE Yes and does the same apply to the limpet mine at Game Discount World? MR MSOMI That is correct. MR MOERANE Yes. Now ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON Were you going on to something else now? MR MOERANE Yes. CHAIRPERSON Is it correct that there was at that time and that there has remained a very close relationship between the ANC and the unions? MR MSOMI That is correct. CHAIRPERSON And the ANC was determined to do all they could to preserve this, establish it and to assist the unions? MR MSOMI Yes indeed. MR MOERANE In fact then, as now, was the ANC in alliance with the union movement? MR MSOMI That is correct. MR MOERANE The so-called tripartite alliance? MR MSOMI That is correct. MR MOERANE And were you also part of Operation Butterfly? MR MSOMI Yes indeed. MR MOERANE It was once the objectives of Operation Butterfly to give support, visible support to industrial action, to strike action by workers? MR MSOMI That is correct. MR MOERANE Now I refer to incident 14. This is an incident that occurred on the 8th December 1985 which involved the placing of a limpet mine and the detonation of a limpet mine at the Mobeni Post Office in Grimsby Road. Were you involved in this? MR MSOMI Yes I was also the commander of the unit by that time. MR MOERANE Yes. Please tell the Honourable Committee what your involvement was? MR MSOMI I called a meeting of the unit, that was between me and Thuso Tshika, and I told them that we have to execute the task of the Area Political Military Committee, that was the general instruction of the Area Political Military Committee. So we selected the target and the target was the Post Office. We surveyed the Post Office and we found that should they do anything on it, it would be better to do it on Sunday because there will be no one moving around that Post Office. So Sunday was the day of the operation and it was after 3 o'clock and we went to the Post Office and we picked up the limpet mine, that was a SZ6 limpet mine with a mechanical detonator, and we went to the Post Office. And when we arrived at the Post Office, our surveillance was in accordance with the operation. We then entered the Post Office because it was open, there were public phones inside, but on that day I wasn't sure whether they were not working but there was no one at the Post Office except the person who was guarding that Post Office, who was sitting right at the corner of the Post Office. We placed the SZ6 and then we disappeared. MR MOERANE Yes, why was the Post Office selected as a target? MR MSOMI The Post Office was one of the government installations. MR MOERANE And you considered a legitimate target? MR MSOMI Yes indeed. MR MOERANE Unfortunately in this incident civilians happened to be around the place at the time of the explosion and were injured. Do you have anything to say to the injured people? MR MSOMI Yes, in fact it will be important for me because the detonation or our placement of that SZ6 was not intended to injure any civilians. It was meant for that government installation. They were just unfortunate to be there at the wrong time where we have already placed that limpet mine. Therefore I would express apology to them. MR MOERANE Yes. MR MSOMI Now let's move on to the last incident, the incident that occurred on the 21st December 1985 at the corner of Pine and Albert Street in Durban and this was an explosion which damaged a VW Kombi? CHAIRPERSON At what number is this? MR MOERANE At 15 Chairperson. Were you involved in this operation? MR MSOMI I was involved as a commander. MR MOERANE Yes, please tell the Honourable Committee about your involvement? MR MSOMI I received an instruction from Tall Man, that the Pretoria regime or the apartheid regime have raided Maseru and therefore we were to retaliate in a form of intimidating and showing to the government that there was no point of them going to outside the borders of South Africa to look for Umkhonto weSizwe, Umkhonto weSizwe is within the country. So we executed the tasks or that instruction clearly in our mind that it was not intended to kill anyone. The only message that was sent to the government was that Umkhonto weSizwe was within the country and therefore the international community must reconsider themselves investing in South Africa and also to send a message to the white community that their government they have voted for has failed. MR MOERANE Did you do any reconnaissance before placing that explosive device wherever it was placed? MR MSOMI Yes the reconnaissance was done and that VW Kombi was surveyed from when it was entering Pine Street, that's right on the corner of Pine and Free Street and the occupants, there were white occupants in the vehicle and we surveyed up until it went for parking next to the corner of Albert Street and Pine Street and all the occupants alighted from the vehicle. And it will also be important for me to explain that the limpet mine that was used or the mechanical device that was used in that operation, we used a limpet device which normally takes five minutes to explode and according to instructions, that detonation was never encouraged to be used because in intent, one way or another, it can also endanger the life of the saboteur. So we were supposed to be as quick as possible when we were using that detonator and that detonator, I instructed my saboteur, that was Thuso Tshika, that he must make sure when, that he pulls out the pin, when he's already on the target and at the same time as to make sure that within a space of time he must be out of that place. MR MOERANE Yes. Now do associate yourself with the political motivation that has been outlined by, amongst others, Dr Ramlakan and the other applicants who have testified? MR MSOMI That is correct, I do associate myself. MR MOERANE And you specifically confirm that what you did was within the context of the policy and aims and objectives of the African National Congress and in the execution of those policies, aims and objectives? MR MSOMI That is correct. MR MOERANE And were you actuated by the motive to bring about the overthrow of the apartheid regime? MR MSOMI That is correct. MR MOERANE And establish in its place a democratic State? MR MSOMI That is correct. MR MOERANE Did you do any of the acts that you did for personal gain? MR MSOMI No. MR MOERANE Did you receive any financial or other benefits? MR MSOMI No. MR MOERANE Did you do what you did out of malice or ill will or personal spite? MR MSOMI No. CHAIRPERSON Well there must have been a certain amount of ill will against the apartheid government wouldn't there? MR MOERANE Or any ill will or spite or malice against any individual? MR MSOMI No. MR MOERANE So you're asking for amnesty in respect of the acts for which you were convicted? MR MSOMI Yes that is correct. MR MOERANE And also the acts that you have disclosed in 8, 9, 14 and 15? MR MSOMI That is correct. MR MOERANE That is the evidence, Chairperson. Oh yes, before we step off, I notice that it is alleged that you are implicated in the Amanzimtoti explosion that occurred on the 23rd December 1985. Were you involved in that matter? MR MSOMI No. MR MOERANE Is there anything that you know about that matter? MR MSOMI In fact I came to know about the Toti bomb blast on the 23rd. MR MOERANE After it had occurred? MR MSOMI After it had occurred, that was over the news. MR MOERANE Yes. MR MSOMI And then on the eve, on Christmas Eve, that was early hours of the 24th December, I was arrested by the Special Branch and on that day they took me to the place, that was Amanzimtoti, to show me the place of what had happened. That is how I know about the Toti bomb blast. But as to I was the participant of it or I did conspire with Andrew Zondo, that is not correct. MR MOERANE I see. Thank you Chairperson. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MOERANE CHAIRPERSON Can I just clear up one point before we go on? This Volkswagen that you placed a limpet mine under, was it a tourist bus? MR MSOMI No. CHAIRPERSON Or sorry, no I'm meaning the wrong thing. It described there a mini-bus? MR MSOMI It was a mini-bus. CHAIRPERSON You've seen, have you, Tshika's statement where he refers to this incident? MR MSOMI Come again, Sir? CHAIRPERSON Have you seen the statement that Mr Tshika, Thuso Tshika, has made in which he refers to this incident where I get the words mini-bus from? MR MSOMI Yes, Sir. CHAIRPERSON Right. CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS CAMBANIS Thank you. Mr Msomi, did you have any contact with the applicant, Raymond Lalla, in relation to any of the events for which you seek amnesty? MR MSOMI Not at all. MS CAMBANIS He will tell the Committee that the concept of Operation Butterfly began before your participation in approximately 1983, do you accept that? 1982, 1983? MR MSOMI I will accept that. MS CAMBANIS And that Mr Sithole, your commander, was the previous internal commander succeeded by Mr Mbongwa, who has already given evidence. Do you accept that? MR MSOMI That is correct. MS CAMBANIS Thank you very much. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS CAMBANIS CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS MOHAMED Thank you Chairperson. Mr Msomi, I know in your evidence you've confirmed that Thuso Tshika was a member of your cell and you were in fact his commander. Will it be correct to say that you would support his application for amnesty in these three incidents, that is the explosion at Game Discount World? MR MSOMI That is correct. MS MOHAMED The explosion at the Mobeni Post Office? MR MSOMI That is correct. MS MOHAMED And the explosion on the VW Kombi? MR MSOMI That is correct. MS MOHAMED Now Mr Msomi, how come that Mr Tshika has been - it is alleged in the summary that has been prepared that he is implicated in certain other bombings, right? Now he went as far as to testify, he will only accept responsibility for these three incidents but not the other incidents? CHAIRPERSON When you say Game, is that Game and OK? MS MOHAMED No Chairperson, just Game Discount. CHAIRPERSON Just Game. MR LAX So that's number 9? MS MOHAMED Yes. MR MSOMI ...(indistinct) when we were arrested that was in December. I was arrested together with the members of the Area Political Military Committee and Thuso Tshika, I cannot explain how he escaped that arrest but he was able to escape that arrest and when he escaped that arrest he manoeuvred and escaped the country and as a result, he did further his training abroad and when he had come back he was instructed to go to Newcastle. In fact that I heard from him when talking in prison. That is what I can say about those. It can only be - he will be able to say about those operation of it, I was present before I was arrested and then of what he did after my arrest. MS MOHAMED Yes, no I accept that Mr Msomi, thank you very much but ...(intervention) MR LAX Sorry, can I just check something, Peter? Peter, is the incoming through on the transcript because there's a lot of interference. Can you just check if it's recording properly? Will you just talk again, Ms Mohammed? MS MOHAMED Thank you Mr Lax. Mr Msomi, I accept your explanation that you wouldn't be aware of any incidents that Mr Tshika was involved in after your arrest but the incidents I'm particularly drawing your attention to, are those that appear on page 5 of the summary? MR MSOMI That is correct. MS MOHAMED Okay, now let me try and explain this to you. Mr Tshika is applying for amnesty amongst other incidents for this explosion at Game Discount World, for the explosion at Mobeni Post Office and for the explosion on that VW Kombi. Did you follow that, Mr Msomi? MR MSOMI Yes that is correct. MS MOHAMED Okay, now on page 5 you would notice the first incident, incident 8, the first to Mr Tshika as being an implicated party? MR MSOMI That is correct. MS MOHAMED Okay, now in court you testified - Mr Tshika is going to say that he didn't personally participate in this attack. He was aware that an attack was going to be carried out but he didn't personally participate? MR MSOMI That would be correct because he was a part of the unit, his mission was to go to Game and Bafunuku was supposed to go to OK Bazaar. MS MOHAMED Okay, thank you. Now the next incident, incident 10, also implicates Mr Tshika. Now in court you testified, once more he will say that he was not involved in this incident. Now the reason I'm putting this to you is because at that time you were his commander. Do you want to comment on that? MR MSOMI In fact incident 10, I wouldn't know about it. That was also if I can also shed light on incident 8. Incident 8 it's mentioned that there were two limpet mines that exploded at OK Bazaar. In fact Bafunuku was only having one limpet mine. That means there was a coincidence of units, that they entered the same shop at the same time. MS MOHAMED Okay, so Mr Msomi, if I understand you correctly, with incident 10 your unit was not involved in that at all? MR MSOMI Not at all. MS MOHAMED Thank you. Now incident 11, this is the incident that involved the Checkers, Smith Street branch. MR MSOMI We were not involved. MS MOHAMED Okay, thank you very much. Chairperson, I have no further questions, thank you. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS MOHAMED CHAIRPERSON That it would seem that different units were launching attacks on the same day on the same sort of targets, the instructions would have come from above? MR MSOMI That is correct. MR MAPOMA I have no questions, Chairperson, thank you. NO QUESTIONS BY MR MAPOMA MR SIBANYONI You said the timing was very short because the people have to pull the pin when they are at this place and sometimes it takes only five minutes? MR MSOMI That is correct. MR SIBANYONI So it was a great coincidence that the bomb didn't injure the others who were launching the operation at the same time? MR MSOMI You mean the OK Bazaars? MR SIBANYONI Yes. MR MSOMI In fact, this operation, in fact they themselves also received the same instruction that those limpet mines have to explode after the shop had closed. CHAIRPERSON As I understand your evidence, the only limpet mine you're talking about that exploded almost immediately was the one under the mini-bus? MR MSOMI That is correct. CHAIRPERSON The others there was a time lag? MR MSOMI Yes that is correct. MR SIBANYONI Thank you, no further questions. MR LAX Can I just clarify, that one under the mini-bus, the reason why you used such a short fuse if I can see it clearly is that that way you'd be sure that there was no one in the vehicle? MR MSOMI By that time there was no one in the vehicle. CHAIRPERSON You waited till the vehicle was empty, you put the limpet mine underneath it and blew it up before the next lot of passengers got in? MR MSOMI Yes indeed. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. MR MOERANE No further questions, may the applicant be excused, Chairperson? WITNESS EXCUSED