amntrans AMNESTY HEARINGS 2000-09-05 DURBAN 2 THUSO TSHIKA https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=54462&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/2000/200905db.htm MR MOERANE Chairperson, that is the end of my lot that for obvious reasons we'll have to sit in on the next one or two applicants, that is Tshika and Lalla. CHAIRPERSON They seem to be in the same incidents, why they have been separated, I don't understand but I agree that it does seem right that you should participate in the others. I don't know if you want to move your seat? MR MOERANE It might not really be necessary. MS CAMBANIS Chairperson, if I may sit next to my colleague and then the applicant can sit - Tshika can sit here? CHAIRPERSON Right, can we now put on record what application we're dealing with? MR MAPOMA For the record, Chairperson, we're dealing with the application of Thuso Tshika and Basil Msibi. THUSO TSHIKA (sworn states) EXAMINATION BY MS MOHAMED Thank you Chairperson. MR MAPOMA Chairperson, I'm sorry. At this stage may I ask for indulgence? It has since come to my notice that the victims in this particular matter have just arrived and I have not had an opportunity to consult with them. CHAIRPERSON We'll give you a short adjournment then. MR MAPOMA Yes, thank you. CHAIRPERSON Let us know when you're ready to proceed and let the other parties know. MR MAPOMA Yes. COMMITTEE ADJOURNS ON RESUMPTION CHAIRPERSON Please continue? MR MAPOMA Yes Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Mr Tshika, you have taken the oath. THUSO TSHIKA (s.u.o.) MS MOHAMED (cont) Thank you Mr Chairperson. Mr Tshika, how old are you? MR TSHIKA 36 years. MS MOHAMED Where do you reside? MR TSHIKA 27 Flatground Road in Pinetown. MS MOHAMED Now I'm going to refer you to a bundle of documents. Chairperson, this is the bundle that is headed -this is the bundle that deals specifically with the applications of Tshika and Msibi. CHAIRPERSON Is that what it's headed? MS MOHAMED Yes. Now Mr Tshika, your amnesty application forms ...(intervention) MR LAX Can you just stop for one second? There's no sound. It's my unit, can you give me another unit please? Thank you. MS MOHAMED Thank you Mr Chairperson. Mr Tshika, your application form is found on pages 1 to 7 of this bundle? MR TSHIKA Yes. MS MOHAMED Okay, now in your application form on page 2 where the question is asked that you lists the acts or offences for which you are applying amnesty for, you state "convicted of Terrorism Act 74/1982." Can you see that? MR TSHIKA Yes. MS MOHAMED Now would it be correct to say that in referring to that case you are incorporating the acts referred to in the indictment in this matter? MR TSHIKA That is correct. MS MOHAMED Now isn't it also correct that you were convicted of the acts referred to in the indictment? MR TSHIKA That is correct. MS MOHAMED What sentence did you receive? MR TSHIKA 15 years. MS MOHAMED What portion of that sentence did you serve? MR TSHIKA Five years. MS MOHAMED Okay, now in your application form it's stated that you are applying for amnesty for incidents which occurred in both the Durban area and Newcastle area? MR TSHIKA That is correct. MS MOHAMED Now for sake of convenience I think we'll deal with the Durban incidents first and thereafter move onto the Newcastle incident, okay? MR TSHIKA Okay. MS MOHAMED Alright. Now the incidents for which - sorry, before I go on, there's a statement that we have handed in to the Committee. Mr Chairperson, I'm aware that these copies were made available sometime yesterday. I'm not sure, will this then be referred to as Exhibit A? CHAIRPERSON Yes. MS MOHAMED Thank you, Chairperson. Now Mr Tshika, you have signed this statement and isn't it correct that you have previously applied for amnesty in respect of two incidents in the Newcastle area and amnesty was in fact granted for those incidents? MR TSHIKA That is correct. MS MOHAMED And it was at that hearing that this statement was handed in? MR TSHIKA That is correct. MS MOHAMED And isn't it also correct that apart from the dates being changed on the last page of this statement, the statement is substantively - remains the same as that handed in previously? MR TSHIKA That is correct. MS MOHAMED Okay, thank you. Now I'm going to take you to these incidents in the Durban area for which you apply for amnesty. Chairperson, I'm going to refer you now to bundle 1 and in the summary that has been prepared on page 5. Mr Tshika, isn't it correct that you are applying for amnesty for incident number 9, that is the incident that occurred in Durban on the 27th September 1985, a limpet mine explosion at Game Discount World between West and Pine Street? MR TSHIKA That is correct. MS MOHAMED Okay and the next incident for which you seek amnesty for is incident number 14 which is the Mobeni Post Office, Grimsby Road, limpet mine explosion on the 8th December 1985? MR TSHIKA That is correct. MS MOHAMED And the next incident is incident number 15, that's the corner of Pine and Albert Street, VW Kombi bomb explosion on the 21st December 1985? MR TSHIKA That is correct. MS MOHAMED Now Mr Tshika, your commander, Mr Msomi, has already testified before the Committee a short while ago and do you associate yourself with the reasons for the selection of these targets? MR TSHIKA Yes that is correct. MS MOHAMED Now I'm going to take you to incident number 9 which is the explosion at Game Discount World. Can you tell the Committee what was your role in this incident? MR TSHIKA Msomi, who was the commander, issued an instruction that Game Stores should be bombed in support of the industrial action that was headed by the unions since there was a conflict between them and the management. I had to follow that order. I took a mini-limpet mine and headed for Game, placed it there. Thereafter I left. I then reported to Mr Msomi that I had carried out his instruction. MS MOHAMED And it is common cause that that limpet mine did in fact explode? MR TSHIKA That is correct. MS MOHAMED Yes, thank you. Now going on to incident number 14, which is the explosion at the Mobeni Post Office. Can you tell the Committee what was your involvement in this incident? MR TSHIKA With regards to the Mobeni incident, I also received an instruction to the effect that the Post Office should be destroyed. Mr Msomi and myself then went to the Post Office where I placed the limpet. We thereafter left. I later heard on the news that it had in fact exploded. MS MOHAMED Yes, thank you very much. Going on to incident number 15, this is the explosion which occurred on the corner of Pine and Albert Streets. Can you tell us about your involvement in this particular incident? MR TSHIKA Msomi received an instruction on that morning that we should do something because of the raid that had been carried out in Maseru where the South African Government had attacked ANC members. I then took a limpet mine and we left for the city. We then spotted the mini-bus which we followed, had parked on Pine Street and the occupants alighted. I then placed the limpet mine. We then left and the bomb exploded. MS MOHAMED Yes, thank you. Now in respect of these three incidents, at all stages you were acting under the instructions of your commander, Mr Msomi, is that correct? MR TSHIKA That is correct. MS MOHAMED And you were seeking to further the aims and objectives of the ANC better? MR TSHIKA That is correct. MS MOHAMED Now, look at this summary - Mr Chairperson, I'm referring to page 5 of that first bundle. Now you are implicated in incident 8 firstly. Would you like to comment on this? This is the explosion at the OK Bazaar on West Street on the 27th September 1985? MR TSHIKA Yes, I can comment. We were persons in one cell commanded by Mr Msomi but I did not play any role in that incident. MS MOHAMED Okay and look at incident 10 which is an incident which occurred on the 27th September, the Spar Foodliner incident. It also alleges that you are implicated in that incident. Can you comment on that? MR TSHIKA I do not know anything about that incident. MS MOHAMED Similarly, incident number 11, the one involving Checkers, Smith Street, also implicates you? MR TSHIKA I do not bear any knowledge with regards to that one either. MS MOHAMED Yes and your commander has in fact confirmed that your unit was not involved in incidents 10 and 11? MR TSHIKA That is correct. MS MOHAMED Yes, thank you Mr Tshika. Now going on to these incidents for which you seek amnesty for in the Newcastle area, there are two such incidents that we are now going to deal with for the purposes of this hearing and they are the explosion at the Newcastle Magistrate's Court and the explosion at the Newcastle Centre, the Wimpy Bar? MR TSHIKA Yes I do know about those. MS MOHAMED Now you have previously applied for those two other incidents in this Newcastle area which was the attack on the Osizweni Police Station and the explosion at the Glencoe Railway Station, is that correct? MR TSHIKA That is correct. MS MOHAMED Okay, now how was it that you came to be in Newcastle at the time? That's around 1986? MR TSHIKA After Mr Msomi had been arrested, the Security Branch started harassing my family, looking for me. I realised that I should leave the country. I then went into exile. I underwent further training and returned. On my arrival in Swaziland I met Tami Zulu and Charles Ndaba who informed me of a problem that existed in Newcastle. They said they required somebody with my experience to go assist there because a colleague who had been based there had died. So there was just one comrade left there whom I had to assist. CHAIRPERSON Was that Bafana Ndaba who died? MR TSHIKA Yes. CHAIRPERSON You deal with this in paragraph 11 of your affidavit? MR TSHIKA Yes. MS MOHAMED Okay, did you know the name of the colleague that you were going to assist in the Newcastle area? MR TSHIKA We had never met but I was informed that his name was Stan. Stan did indeed arrive from South Africa. We met at Lodwe near the border then we proceeded to Newcastle. In Newcastle I had to train MK members as well as recruit those persons whom I could identify as being suitable for training. MS MOHAMED Okay and who was the person who you reported to at that stage? In other words, did you have a commander? MR TSHIKA Yes, it was Stan whom I now know as Msibi. He was my commander and I reported to him. MS MOHAMED Okay, now I'm going to take you to particularly to these two incidents for which you apply for amnesty for the Newcastle area. Firstly to the explosion at the Newcastle Magistrate's Court. MR TSHIKA We would sometimes hold discussions with Msibi who was my commander. He had direct contact with Swaziland and he would inform me of instructions that filtered from Swaziland. I would pass such instructions to my members. That is how the Newcastle incident came about. As a government institution it was selected as a target. I then passed on the instruction to Themba Nkosi Khosi who was a member of my cell. MS MOHAMED Okay and who chose the Newcastle Court as the target? MR TSHIKA As I've already mentioned, Msibi was the commander so he is the person who issued instructions on which places to attack. What we had to do was to conduct reconnaissance on that specific target. MS MOHAMED What was your role exactly in this explosion, what did you do? MR TSHIKA We conducted reconnaissance together with Themba Nkosi. We surveilled it and I was satisfied that it was a suitable target. I then handed over a limpet mine to Themba Nkosi which he was supposed to place there. He did so. MS MOHAMED And at what time was this limpet mine expected to go off? MR TSHIKA Around the lunch hour when there are no members of the public in the court. MS MOHAMED So just to clarify - sorry, it's just to confirm, the reason that you chose the Newcastle Court was because it was a State institution? MR TSHIKA That is correct. MS MOHAMED Now you chose lunch time, you've just said that you didn't expect it to be that crowded. Now did you not foresee the possibility that there would be people present in the court at that time? MR TSHIKA Yes, in a state of war there are always casualties. MS MOHAMED Okay, now going on to the next incident for which you apply for amnesty for, this is an explosion which occurred at the Newcastle Centre. Who chose this centre as a target? MR TSHIKA As I have already stated that I passed on instructions from my commander. It was such an instruction. MS MOHAMED So Msibi gave you an instruction that this place should? MR TSHIKA That is correct. MS MOHAMED Now what was your role exactly in this instance? MR TSHIKA I had to go conduct reconnaissance first. I was satisfied that there would not be much damage. Basil Sithole was the one who was going to place the limpet mine. MS MOHAMED What time did you choose to have this limpet mine go off? MR TSHIKA Around lunch time. MS MOHAMED And why did you choose this particular time? MR TSHIKA It's because that is where the Security Branch members had their lunch. MS MOHAMED So at that stage you viewed the targeting of Security Branch members as being a legitimate target? MR TSHIKA That is correct. MS MOHAMED Now Mr Tshika, you must aware by this stage that there were certain victims who were injured in these various explosions which you were directly involved in? MR TSHIKA Yes. MS MOHAMED My learned colleague, the Evidence Leader, has stated that some of the victims are present here today. Do you have anything to say to them? MR TSHIKA Yes. To those who were affected by those explosions, particularly the civilians, I apologise to them, they were not our target. MS MOHAMED And just to confirm once more that at all stages when you so acted you were furthering the aims and objectives of the ANC at the time? MR TSHIKA That is correct. MS MOHAMED Yes, thank you very much, Chairperson, I have no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS MOHAMED CHAIRPERSON Are you going to cross-examine first? CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MOERANE Yes, I suppose so. Thank you Chairperson. Mr Tshika, at the time that you took part in these activities, or shortly before that, what level of education had you attained? MR TSHIKA Standard 10. MR MOERANE And did you intend advancing you education further? MR TSHIKA That is correct. MR MOERANE What did you intend to become? MR TSHIKA When I was still young I had intended to become a doctor. I was doing science subjects together with Mr Msomi but we did not have a laboratory at the time. MR MOERANE Yes. Where were you a student? MR TSHIKA At Lamontville. MR MOERANE Did you have to go through Bantu Education? MR TSHIKA That was the only education available, notwithstanding the fact that I was against it but at the time there was no other alternative except to study outside South Africa which was difficult at the time. MR MOERANE Did you think that the government of the day were going to change their policies if there hadn't been armed action? MR TSHIKA It would not have because if you look at the history of the ANC, it started 1912, but up until the '50's, '60's the government was still adamant in its policies. MR MOERANE So if I understand your evidence correctly, all that you did was in the struggle and fight for liberation of the oppressed people? MR TSHIKA That is correct. MR MOERANE You were, to a large extent, a foot soldier? MR TSHIKA That is correct. MR MOERANE You acted by and large on instruction from your commander? MR TSHIKA That is correct. MR MOERANE And you obeyed instructions which you believed were within the framework of the policies and objectives of the African National Congress? MR TSHIKA That is correct. MR MOERANE And I also assume that one of the precepts of that policy was to conduct warfare in as humane a manner as possible? MR TSHIKA That is correct. MR MOERANE To limit and restrict civilian casualties? MR TSHIKA That is correct. MR MOERANE And did you this in this election of targets? MR TSHIKA That is correct. MR MOERANE I'm referring in particular to the incidents which you performed or in which you participated under the command and instruction of Mr Msomi in the Durban area. MR TSHIKA Yes. MR MOERANE Thank you, Chairperson. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MOERANE CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS CAMBANIS Thank you Chairperson. Sir, in relation to the Durban incidents, we now know that they're referred to as the Operation Butterfly incidents, is that correct? MR TSHIKA That is correct. MS CAMBANIS And in relation to those incidents did you have any contact with the applicant, Raymond Lalla? MR TSHIKA No. MS CAMBANIS Thank you Sir. Thank you Chairperson. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS CAMBANIS CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MAPOMA Mr Tshika, on the bombing of the Game Discount in Durban, I see in paragraph 7 of your affidavit, that is Exhibit A, you say on the second sentence "I was instructed by Qonda to place bombs at Game just before closure of shops so that there would be minimum injuries." Do you confirm that? MR TSHIKA Yes. MR MAPOMA When you say just before closure of the shops, what did you mean? MR TSHIKA I could not have placed the bomb after the shop was closed. MR MAPOMA And when you placed that bomb, when did you expect it to explode? MR TSHIKA After the shop was closed. MR MAPOMA Why? MR TSHIKA So that nobody would be injured. MR LAX Mr Mapoma, while you're just looking may I just interpose here? MR MAPOMA Yes. MR LAX You realise that there is a problem here in the sentence that's just been read to you and that is that you refer to bombs in the plural in that sentence whereas we've heard the evidence that there was only one bomb? MR TSHIKA Yes. MR LAX Could you clarify that for us please? MR TSHIKA As I mentioned before, Mr Msomi called myself and Bafu. That is why I referred to the bombs in plural because those were intended for Game and OK but as I've already mentioned, I did not take part in the incident at OK It's just that when the instruction was issued I was present and therefore I bore the knowledge that OK would also be attacked. MR LAX My only problem with that answer is that this talks about bombs at Game, not bombs at Game and OK I'll assume it's just a typographical error. MR TSHIKA It is possible that it is a typing error and I was also not very careful when I read it. MR LAX Yes, but you're clear you only had a single bomb when you went to Game? MR TSHIKA Yes, it was just one. MR LAX Thank you. Sorry, Mr Mapoma. MR MAPOMA Thank you, Sir. Now in whose company were you when you placed that bomb at Game? MR TSHIKA I was alone. MR MAPOMA Now let us deal with the Kombi that was bombed at Pine Street. Actually, who placed that bomb there? MR TSHIKA I did. MR MAPOMA And where was Mr Msomi? MR TSHIKA He was a little distance away and he acted as a lookout as to whether there were no Police or Security Branch members around so that if, for instance, I am arrested on the spot he could also report to the commanders, that was his duty. My role was to place the bomb. MR MAPOMA Where exactly did you place that bomb? Inside or outside the Kombi? MR TSHIKA It was next to the Kombi near the wheels. Now regarding the bombing of the Newcastle Magistrate's Court, if I understand it well at that time you were already from outside the country having received an advanced military training? MR TSHIKA That is correct. MR MAPOMA And I suppose you had an advanced understanding of the policies of the movement as well, the ANC? MR TSHIKA I would not call it advanced. I had knowledge. MR MAPOMA And you're understanding at the time, I suppose, was that whilst it was war you had to minimise the injury to civilians? MR TSHIKA That is correct. MR MAPOMA Now, I would like you to explain this, on that day it was a normal working day? MR TSHIKA That is correct. MR MAPOMA Now you see, during the bombing at Game you placed that bomb shortly before closure so that you minimise the injuries to civilians, so that it blasts when the civilians have already left. Now in the Magistrate's Court, during the working day, during lunch time, you place a bomb to blast during that time. How do you explain this now? MR TSHIKA These were different targets. There was a different objective with regards to Game so they should be treated differently. MR MAPOMA What do you mean by that? MR TSHIKA Game is a shop and the Magistrate's Court was a government institution. About that time I have already mentioned that the instruction was to the effect it should be placed at that time because at that specific time people would go out to get their lunch. Moreover, there had been a person who had conducted reconnaissance at that place. That is why we took steps to minimise injuries to civilians. MR MAPOMA You see, the victims who were injured, will say that the bombing actually took place at about three o'clock, not during lunch hour as you say? MR TSHIKA The intention was for it to explode around lunch time and in South African Courts the lunch time is between one and two and even then at about that time when the court reopens, you cannot expect that suddenly a ...(indistinct) will come there. MR MAPOMA And they will say that at that time they were inside the court room and the court was in progress? MR TSHIKA I have already mentioned that our intention was for that bomb to explode around lunch time. It was not meant to explode when the court was in session. MR MAPOMA Are you in a position to dispute at all that the explosion took place at the time when the court was in session, at about three o'clock? MR TSHIKA I would not dispute it, I assume that you know about it. MR SIBANYONI Can you give a reason why did the bomb explode later than it was intended? MR TSHIKA There are slides that are inserted into the detonator, these are responsible for time delays. Unfortunately these were of Russian origin, where the weather is mostly cold and the slides themselves are controlled by the weather and there is a minimum and maximum time at which it will explode so that if perhaps it is too hot, the bomb may go off much earlier. MR SIBANYONI Thanks. Mr Mapoma? MR MAPOMA And on that day how was the weather? Was it too cold or too hot? MR TSHIKA It was mild. MR MAPOMA And what affect then did the weather have on the blast of that bomb time wise? MR TSHIKA I do not know. MR MAPOMA You would not say that it exploded later than it was expected because of the weather, is that what you're saying? MR TSHIKA I'm not saying that. MR MAPOMA What are you saying? MR TSHIKA I am saying that I do not know. I was just explaining how that detonator works and factors that would influence the explosion and there are many other factors that would influence the timing of the device. MR MAPOMA You know, Mr Tshika, it's important. It's important that you must be able to explain this. I'm not trying to trap you but I think it's important. MR TSHIKA Okay. MR MAPOMA You say the bomb which you placed there was intended to blast at during lunch hour, that was between one and two o'clock? MR TSHIKA Yes. MR MAPOMA And now it turns out that the bomb blasted almost an hour later and you are saying that the weather conditions do affect, influence that? MR TSHIKA Yes. MR MAPOMA Now what I want to find out from you are you able to explain at all, if at all, that the weather conditions did have an effect on the blast of the bomb at all? MR TSHIKA I say it is possible that the weather had an influence. CHAIRPERSON Tell me, did you set the timing of the bomb or was there a fixed timing in the detonator? MR TSHIKA It's a fixed timing taken from the slides. CHAIRPERSON Sorry, a fixed timing taken from? MR TSHIKA The slides, the delayed device which is we insert to the detonator. CHAIRPERSON And you don't adjust that? MR TSHIKA You don't adjust that, yes. CHAIRPERSON So if a bomb has been kept in odd weather conditions for six months or a year, the detonator might be affected? MR TSHIKA No. CHAIRPERSON It wouldn't be? MR TSHIKA Yes because before you activate the detonator you have to pull it the pin. CHAIRPERSON Yes? MR TSHIKA Then from that then ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON Then there's a time from there? MR TSHIKA Yes. If it is stored there's no time for that. I'm saying if the detonator is stored that means it's not activated, even it can stay for two years or three years. It won't be affected by anything. CHAIRPERSON But I thought you said that the Russian weather affected it? MR TSHIKA No, I said that the manufacturing from Russia, maybe because there it's cold, it might have some influence when it comes to an hot area which is South Africa. CHAIRPERSON It might affect the timing, it is manufactured in a cold climate, when it's in a hot climate it might be different, is that what you're saying? MR TSHIKA Maybe. That's why I'm saying I'm not an expert in detonators. MR LAX Perhaps you could explain this to us? MR TSHIKA Yes? MR LAX This device, the slides that you put in. The reason that you put additional slides in, as I understand it, is this is a corrosive material inside the detonator which then eats up the slides? MR TSHIKA Yes. MR LAX And what is impossible to predict is the precise timing in which it will be eaten. You put it in and there are certain parameters which you can expect that more or less between this time and that time it would more or less go off, depending on the number of metal slides that you stick into it? MR TSHIKA Yes. MR LAX So you increase the delay at which the detonator will explode? MR TSHIKA Yes. MR LAX But it's not predictable within a minute or ten minutes even, it may take longer or less, depending on how the corrosive material in the detonator eats the slides? MR TSHIKA The slides have different colours. There's yellow, green and red. Red is for a maximum of 15 minutes. MR LAX Yes, we understand that. MR TSHIKA Okay. MR LAX The point I'm trying to suggest to you and I'm a bit puzzled at your response but anyway. As we heard evidence earlier that these things are unpredictable, that sometimes people have blown themselves up with these things because the slides go off immediately, for example? MR TSHIKA Yes. MR LAX And you've been asked to explain why it only went off an hour later and I'm suggesting to you the reason it went off an hour later is because it's impossible to predict with certainty how long it will take before it goes off? MR TSHIKA Yes. CHAIRPERSON When did you place the bomb there? MR TSHIKA It was about quarter to one. MR LAX And how long did you allow for it to explode? MR TSHIKA One hour. MR LAX One hour? MR TSHIKA Yes. MR LAX Thank you. MR MAPOMA Why did you not place it immediately or just a few minutes before the court adjourned? MR TSHIKA There were police who were on guard. You will remember that around that time police were on guard as to suspicious looking persons as well as they were on the lookout for bombs. It was placed so that whoever placed that bomb would not be regarded as suspicious. MR MAPOMA And you, with reference to the victims who got injured, you're saying that casualties in a war situation are inevitable. You're saying in a state of war there are casualties, that's what you're saying? MR TSHIKA That is correct. MR MAPOMA What do you mean by that? What do you mean when you say in a state of war? MR TSHIKA We were at war against apartheid. As I have already mentioned, the objective of the ANC was to liberate the oppressed people as well as to fight apartheid in whatever form. I do not believe that any ANC member would not expect that in such a state of war there would not be casualties. I do not mean to say that I disregard those people who were injured. MR LAX Sorry Mr Mapoma. Where did you put this limpet mine? MR TSHIKA It was placed in a bin against a wall. MR LAX That was my recollection from a previous hearing, where it had been placed. I was just making sure that that evidence was right. MR TSHIKA Alright. MR MAPOMA Inside or outside? MR TSHIKA Outside. That was still another way of trying to minimise injuries. MR MAPOMA And the Wimpy Bar, you say Security Branch members used to have lunch there? MR TSHIKA That is correct. MR MAPOMA But I suppose other ordinary civilians as well would have lunch there? MR TSHIKA That is correct. MR MAPOMA So you - what is it that you did to minimise injury to those unfortunate civilians? MR TSHIKA Our target was the Security Branch and we knew that at that time members of the public did not frequent that place. At that time it was mainly the Security Branch. MR MAPOMA Why, did they not frequent it, to your knowledge if any? MR TSHIKA Sorry? MR MAPOMA To your knowledge, why did the ordinary civilians not frequent that place? MR TSHIKA We are referring to 1986. When I arrived at Newcastle at that time such places as the Wimpy Bar were not really frequented by black people. The majority of the people were poor and as well as for the fact that at that time people were still under the apartheid regime so they were not free to frequent those places as they wished. CHAIRPERSON So when you say civilians, you mean black people did not frequent it? MR TSHIKA No, I'm not meaning that. black and white and yellow, as long as they are civilians, it made no difference. MR MAPOMA Thank you Chairperson, no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MAPOMA MR LAX Mr Tshika, did you derive any material benefit for any of these activities? MR TSHIKA No. MR LAX And did you have any personal interest or personal agendas in the way that you conducted these operations? MR TSHIKA No. MR LAX Thank you Chair. MR SIBANYONI I notice that you often use the phrase to minimise civilian casualties? MR TSHIKA Yes. MR SIBANYONI Was the aim to minimise or to avoid civilian casualties? MR TSHIKA It's to avoid but that was an impossible dream in urban guerrilla warfare, it's a really impossible dream. That's why I've used minimise. MR SIBANYONI In other words in these activities you foresaw that there will be one or two civilians? MR TSHIKA Yes. MR SIBANYONI Thank you Mr Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Re-examination? MS MOHAMED Thank you Mr Chairperson. MR MAPOMA Excuse me, Chairperson, I'm sorry. At this stage, Chairperson, can I just have a minute to speak to the victims. I just want to find out from them if there's anything that they would want to raise with the applicant? CHAIRPERSON Very well. MR LAX Do you want us to adjourn or do you want to do it quickly while we sit here? MR MAPOMA Not adjourn, just quickly, Chairperson. MR LAX Please go ahead. MR NENE ...(inaudible) MR LAX Yes. Mr Mapoma tells us that you'd like to ask a few questions of Mr Tshika? MR NENE Yes. MR LAX Please go ahead. CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR NENE I would like to know from Mr Tshika, if he wanted to destroy a government structure when he placed that bomb as well as avoid civilian injury. However, that bomb did not explode during the lunch hour. Why did it explode at three in the afternoon? MR TSHIKA I have already answered that question. I was questioned on that. MR NENE I did not understand quite clearly. I will request your attorney to explain. MR LAX Mr Tshika, we had a little discussion around the issue of the time and the weather and so on. Maybe you could explain it to him in your own words. It will be quite a valuable exercise I think. So although it has already been asked of you, I think in the interests of reconciliation it would be a useful exercise for you to just tell him yourself. MR TSHIKA Okay. I explained that detonators have timing devices. They are sometimes affected by the weather so that depending on the weather they may explode earlier or later than expected. With regards to that incident, the device delayed and exploded only later. MR NENE I also heard you say that the people who kept guard at the court, could you not go back to check why the bomb had not exploded by that time? MR TSHIKA Yes it was guarded. MR NENE I will say you are lying, there was no one who kept guard at that court, this only happened after the bomb explosion. The police at the court were just carrying out their normal duties, not guarding the court. If that had been the case you would not have been able to enter the court with the bomb. MR TSHIKA I did not know as to your capacity, because when they be engaged in this debate whereas I do not have information about you. Were you a civilian or were you a policeman? MR NENE I was a policeman at the time. MR TSHIKA Where were you trained? MR NENE At Hammanskraal. MR TSHIKA In what year? MR NENE In 1981. MR TSHIKA I hope your training also included being on the lookout for terrorists. MR NENE I was not instructed on that. MR TSHIKA When you underwent your training I assume you took an oath to protect this country against its enemies? MR NENE Please repeat that question? MR LAX Sorry, can I just stop you? You're here to answer a few questions by him. Not the other way around. The man was a policeman at the time. I think you're not helping anybody with this line of questioning. I'd request you to be a bit sensitive to the issues here. MR TSHIKA Okay. MR LAX Mr Nene, you've heard his explanation. Are there any other questions you may want to ask him about the incident? MR NENE I think Mr Mapoma has asked such questions. I just wanted to clarify the issue on the court being guarded. It was not guarded at the time. Therefore he is not being completely honest. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR NENE MR LAX Yes. We hear your answers. Mr Nene, thank you for asking those questions. Mr Mapoma, is that it? MR MAPOMA That is all, Chairperson. Thank you for the indulgence. CHAIRPERSON Any further re-examination? MS MOHAMED No, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. MR LAX Does your client wish to be excused? CHAIRPERSON Does he want to be excused now or does he want to hear his colleague perhaps? Mr Msibi? MS MOHAMED He will want to hear Mr Msibi, Chairperson, thank you. Chairperson, I now call Mr Basil Fani Msibi. WITNESS EXCUSED