amntrans AMNESTY HEARINGS 2000-09-06 DURBAN 3 SIFISO SIPIWE KUNENE AM6179/97 https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=54468&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/2000/200906db.htm MS CAMBANIS Crystal Cambanis, I appear for the applicant, Mr Sifiso Kunene, in this application AM6179/97. MR MAPOMA Chairperson, before the proceedings start I propose to explain about this statement. This statement is from Mr Mike Blake sitting next to me. He was injured at the bombing that took place at CNA. I asked that it be marked Exhibit A and we have notified also Mr Nkhanya Somalinga who was a police officer but he is not here but he was notified personally, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Why was he notified? MR LAX Injured party. CHAIRPERSON He was an injured party? MR MAPOMA Yes, Chairperson. He was injured at Umhlazi. MR LAX That's the hand grenade incident? MR MAPOMA Yes. Thank you, Chairperson. MR LAX Sorry, were there any other victims in that incident besides himself because from the amnesty application it seems that there were more than one person sitting in that room at the time? If I remember correctly "I personally tossed an F1 defensive or fragmentation grade into a window of house. There were three members of the KZP sitting and drinking." What about the other two, Mr Mapoma? MR MAPOMA I may have to find out about that one, Chairperson, but all I know is that the identified victim in that incident is only Mr Malinga at this point. MR LAX We'll proceed on that basis for the time being. MR MAPOMA Yes. SIFISO SIPIWE KUNENE (sworn states) EXAMINATION BY MS CAMBANIS Thank you Chairperson. Mr Kunene, you are the applicant in this matter and you have completed a series of application forms which appear at page 1 to 12 of the bundle and which you have perused, is that correct? MR KUNENE Yes that is correct. MS CAMBANIS And it was completed in your own handwriting and at pages 3, 6, 9 and 12, you signed. Do you confirm that that is your signature? MR KUNENE Yes that is correct. MS CAMBANIS And you now confirm the contents of those applications? MR KUNENE Yes I do. MS CAMBANIS Mr Kunene, if you can just clarify what you are applying for? At page 1, paragraph 9.1 (a) you are applying for smuggling weapons into South Africa, in other words being a courier? MR KUNENE Yes I do. MS CAMBANIS Chairperson, even though that is not a gross human rights violation, would beg leave to bring application for that at this hearing in addition? MR LAX Yes, it doesn't make sense if we're going to hear other matters that he's involved in not to hear this one. MS CAMBANIS Yes. MR LAX We may as well dispose of it in one go. MS CAMBANIS Would ask for that, thank you. At page 4, the second application, at paragraph 9.1(a) refers to the handgrenade attack on members of the Police, is that correct? That is the second act for which? MR KUNENE Yes that is correct. MS CAMBANIS At paragraph 9(a)(ii), you gave the date as May of June 1990. In fact the TRC has been able to establish that the date of this incident was the 11th June 1990. Do you accept that as the date of the incident? MR KUNENE Yes that is correct. MS CAMBANIS Then you also apply at page 7 of the bundle at a similar paragraph 4(b), ordering the detonation of two low power explosives at two CNA branches, is that correct? MR KUNENE Yes that is correct. MS CAMBANIS The branches to which you will refer is the one in Durban and the one in Pinetown, is that correct? MR KUNENE Yes that is correct. MS CAMBANIS At page 10, Mr Kunene, you had then applied for recruiting at 9.1(a) ...(intervention) MR LAX Sorry, before you go there, the date in our summary is 7 October 1988, do we accept that as the correct date? MR KUNENE You mean the CNA incident? MR LAX Yes. In the summary that proceeds your first applications, it's referred to as incident 20 and incident 21. Both on the same day, one at CNA Pinetown and one at CNA Durban. Are the dates correct? MR KUNENE Yes that is correct. MR LAX Thank you, let's proceed to the next one then. MS CAMBANIS Sir, at page 10 you apply for recruiting people for military training both inside and outside the country. In fact that is no longer an offence and do you wish to abandon that application? MR KUNENE Yes that is correct. MS CAMBANIS Sir, also in the summary, there was on page 10, item 5, mention made of producing and distributing underground literature and that apparently comes from TRC investigations. Similarly, that is no longer an offence and do you confirm that you withdraw your application with regards printing and distributing of underground material? MR KUNENE Yes, I do not have a problem withdrawing that as well. MR LAX You're referring to item 5 in the summary? MS CAMBANIS Yes. MR LAX On the first page of the bundle? MS CAMBANIS Yes. MR LAX Thank you. MS CAMBANIS In fact no affidavit was signed, it was during the course of discussions. And finally, we just want to clarify, again in the summary, if you look at incident 19, it refers to an attack on the 8th December 1988 in which one Thulani Gadebe was killed, do you see that? CHAIRPERSON You said 1988? It's '86. MS CAMBANIS '86. Do you see that Mr Kunene? MR KUNENE Yes. MS CAMBANIS In fact this is the incident which you referred to on page 2 at paragraph 9(iv) and that relates to an incident which took place with Mr Thulani who was in fact a member of your unit, Mr Thulani Gadebe was a member of your unit, is that correct? MR KUNENE Yes that is correct. MS CAMBANIS And you've explained that explosives were removed from a dead letter box by yourself and Mr Thulani Gadebe? MR KUNENE Yes that is correct. MS CAMBANIS And it subsequently became apparent that the explosive had been tampered with as a result of which Mr Gadebe was killed in a handgrenade explosion? MR KUNENE Yes that is correct. MS CAMBANIS In fact there's a police person, Steyn, who is applying for the murder of Mr Thulani Gadebe at another hearing, is that correct? MR KUNENE Yes that is correct. MS CAMBANIS So this is, in other words, not an incident or an act that you are applying for amnesty? Do you confirm that? MR KUNENE Yes, we were victims on this one, not the perpetrators. MS CAMBANIS Mr Kunene, so in summary you are applying for incidents 20, 21 and 22 as stated in the summary as well as for smuggling explosives, bringing explosives into the country? MR KUNENE Yes that is correct. MS CAMBANIS Is it correct that you joined the ANC in 1986? MR KUNENE Yes that is correct - in 1984. MS CAMBANIS Sorry, in 1984. And you were subsequently arrested in 1987, is that correct? MR KUNENE Yes that is correct. MS CAMBANIS And is it correct that between the period 1984 to 1987 you were more working in the political arena of the ANC? MR KUNENE Yes that is correct. MS CAMBANIS When did you receive - did you receive military training? MR KUNENE Yes I was trained briefly in 1986. MS CAMBANIS Is that prior to your arrest? MR KUNENE Yes. MS CAMBANIS And is correct that you were then held in solitary confinement for a period of one year during 1987? MR LAX Sorry, where did you get your training, before you go onto that? MR KUNENE Internal, in South Africa. MS CAMBANIS That's in 1986, the first training you had was internal in 1986? MR KUNENE Yes. MR LAX Who was in charge of your training? MR KUNENE It was members of the unit which were under the command of Lucky. That's the only name I know. MR LAX Yes please proceed? MS CAMBANIS And following your detention, were you in fact charged with any crimes in a court of law? MR KUNENE No I wasn't. MS CAMBANIS Sir, did you at some other stage receive military training? MR KUNENE Yes in 1988. MS CAMBANIS And where did that training take place? MR KUNENE In Swaziland. MS CAMBANIS And do you recall who trained you in Swaziland? MR KUNENE I was working with Mr Mapomolo, he was the one who was training me. MS CAMBANIS Alright. Mr Kunene, if we just turn to the first incident for which you apply, on page 1, that is smuggling weapons into the country. You mention there that you distributed them to three unit commanders. Do you see that? MR KUNENE Yes I do. MS CAMBANIS Can you please inform the Committee the names of those commanders? MR KUNENE The first one was Themba. The second one or rather Themba had a unit which was based in Umhlazi and his unit, the members are unaccounted, they disappeared. Until this day no one knows what happened to them. MS CAMBANIS Mr Kunene ...(intervention) MR LAX Sorry, before you go there, who were the members of his unit that had disappeared? MR KUNENE I discovered later that it was Themba, the one I'm referring to. His real name is Fagasi. And there one Vusi, Vusi Fish Nothuli, Sibosiso Msomi. I don't remember the fourth one. MR LAX When you say Themba's other name was Gagasi, was that his surname or his first name? MR KUNENE Themba was his code name. I just learned now that his real name was Fagasi and I don't know his surname. MS CAMBANIS Perhaps if I can help, Mr Lax. Is it correct that these persons were last heard of in the Piet Retief area and that the TRC had in fact been investigating the circumstances surrounding their disappearance, is that correct? MR KUNENE Yes that's what I heard as well. MS CAMBANIS And that is through the TRC investigations that you came to know the real names of Thulani? MR LAX Themba. MS CAMBANIS Themba, sorry. Is that correct? MR KUNENE Yes that is correct. MR LAX Sorry, I interrupted you, you were about to move onto the second unit? MR KUNENE Yes. The second unit was under the command Tomaleti Solamani Kamane. I don't know the unit members because it was not supposed for me to know. It was also based in Umhlazi, that that unit was under the command ...(intervention) MS CAMBANIS Mr Kunene, before you go onto the third one, is it correct that that commander died in recent months? A few months ago? MR KUNENE Yes, he passed away probably three months ago in Umhlazi. MS CAMBANIS And the third commanders name is? MR KUNENE Shaun, he is from Clermont. MS CAMBANIS And to the best of your knowledge he is still alive? MR KUNENE Yes he is. MS CAMBANIS Do you know him by any other name? MR KUNENE No, I only know him as Shaun Dube. MS CAMBANIS And Mr Kunene, in the second line you say that you gave him instructions to attack any enemy personnel with these. Please just explain what you meant by that? MR KUNENE When I said enemy personnel I was referring to the people who were on the right-wing. People who were helping the Government, like Police and also the people who were collaborating with the Police. MS CAMBANIS In fact, Mr Kunene, did you receive political training as a member of the ANC in regard to what the ANC's policies were on legitimate targets? MR KUNENE I did have an understanding of the policy. MS CAMBANIS And you just mentioned now your understanding of what legitimate targets were? MR KUNENE Yes. MS CAMBANIS Sir, I just want to refer you, perhaps we'll go to the TRC submissions of page 14 of the ANC's second submission to the TRC. The last paragraph on the right hand side. I think you've read it "At times an operation would take place in support of campaigns or other struggles taking place within the community such as strike action, mass retrenchments or rental/bus boycotts. An explosion at an office block, a railway line, factory or supermarket makes sense in this context." We've seen that and do you agree that that was the policy of the ANC? MR KUNENE Yes I do agree. MS CAMBANIS And across the page on page 15, left hand column, third paragraph, towards the middle of that sentence "Each cadre had to be trusted to make decisions with regard to choice of target within ANC policy whilst keeping a close eye on developments and feelings amongst the people in his or her community." CHAIRPERSON Sorry, where is this? MS CAMBANIS It's the ANC's second submission to the TRC, page 15, on the left hand column in the third paragraph from the top. CHAIRPERSON Right, yes. MS CAMBANIS In begins "in contrast with convention". CHAIRPERSON Yes. MS CAMBANIS So what is your understanding on "whilst keeping a close eye on developments and feelings amongst the people in his or her community"? MR KUNENE We were supposed to be close to the people on the ground, we were supposed to know the problems which they were facing and the challenges as well. MS CAMBANIS And then on the same page, the next paragraph, also half way down "Many of the established MK units had been allowed a degree of initiative in executing their operations as long as they remained within the policy guidelines." Do you ...(intervention) MR KUNENE Yes, it was clear to us. We understood that we had a power to take initiatives as long as those initiatives were according to the policies and the guidelines of the organisation. MS CAMBANIS And that is what you are trained and that's how you understood the policy? MR KUNENE Yes because it was not possible for us to wait for instructions. Sometimes we had to use our own discretion. MS CAMBANIS Yes, so now if you can turn to the second act for which you ...(intervention) MR LAX Sorry, before you do that. What quantity of arms, ammunitions or explosives, whatever it might be did you actually bring in? We just need the details. If you're not able to remember, at least give us some indication of how many instances, what sort of stuff you brought in, etc? MR KUNENE It was mostly handgrenades and firearms. I wouldn't be able to be certain about the number or the quantity but there were many trips which I have undertaken to Swaziland. I'm not certain about the quantity. MR LAX In the - that was during the period 1988 to 1990? MR KUNENE Yes. MR LAX And you just say you're not sure how many trips you made but there were many of them? MR KUNENE Yes I used to frequent Swaziland. Sometimes I will go to report back and sometimes just to have meetings with other people there and I will bring these weapons but I wouldn't be able to say I went there ten times or twenty times but I frequented Swaziland. MR LAX Thank you. Please then continue to the next one? MS CAMBANIS Thank you. So on page 4 you've referred to the handgrenade attack on - against who was this directed? MR KUNENE I know this man by the man of Kangiso. MS CAMBANIS And what occupation did he have? MR KUNENE He was the member of the Police of the then Kwa-Zulu Police and he had a position in the Police. MS CAMBANIS Sir, later on page 5 of you application you said he was fast becoming another Sipiwe Nyanda ...(intervention) MR LAX Vuyane is the name. CHAIRPERSON Thank you Mr Chairperson. MR LAX Just for the record, Sipiwe Vuyane was notorious policeman, reputed or alleged to have murdered a number of non-IFP people. MS CAMBANIS My client informed me that had I lived in Natal I would have known that, yes. Why did you choose this person as a target? MR KUNENE There were too many complaints from the Umhlazi community since they were being harassed by this man and in most places where Sipiwe was he would be present as well. He was one of the people which was not liked by the community of Umhlazi. MS CAMBANIS And at page 5, you said at the top "The grenade attack was meant to eliminate." It was your intention to kill this person, is that correct? MR KUNENE Yes, it was an intention because it was a war. MS CAMBANIS ...(inaudible) common cause that he survived the attack but that he was injured in that, during that attack, is that correct? MR KUNENE That's what I heard. MS CAMBANIS Please could you tell what preparations and planning was done by yourself or can you just begin, is this an operation in which you acted alone? MR KUNENE Yes, I will say I was alone. MS CAMBANIS And from where did you obtain the handgrenade that was used in the attack? MR KUNENE I had handgrenade because I had a place where I was staying in Umhlazi. MR LAX Had you established a dead letter box with a cache of arms in it? MR KUNENE I wouldn't say so but what I can say is that where I was residing I had weapons inside the house not a DLB. MR LAX Okay. MS CAMBANIS I was interrupted when I was asking what plans and reconnoitring did you do if any in relation to this act? MR KUNENE I collected information about his movements and the places which he frequented and his association. That was the information which was necessary for my purpose. MS CAMBANIS And Mr Lax has pointed out that you referred to three members sitting at that place. Is that your recollection? MR KUNENE I do remember so because it is the place where they used to meet and have drinks there. MS CAMBANIS And in terms of the ANC policy, is it your evidence that the choice of target fell within the guidelines of the ANC? MR KUNENE Yes. MS CAMBANIS Page 7, Mr Kunene, we turn to the two explosions at CNA. CHAIRPERSON Or should we rather take that after the adjournment and perhaps the noise downstairs will stop by then. How long do you want for the adjournment? MS CAMBANIS As short as possible. CHAIRPERSON Thirty minutes? MS CAMBANIS Thirty minutes. CHAIRPERSON Very well, we will adjourn till half past one. MS CAMBANIS Thank you Chairperson. COMMITTEE ADJOURNS ON RESUMPTION SIFISO SIPIWE KUNENE (s.u.o.) EXAMINATION BY MS CAMBANIS (Cont) Thank you Chairperson. Mr Kunene, we were turning now at page 7 to the two attacks on CNA and there at paragraph 9.1 you say ordering the detonation of two low power explosives of two CNA branches and to that you're referring to the branch in Pinetown and Durban, is that correct? MR KUNENE That is correct. MS CAMBANIS These events took place during 1988 in October. Would you please explain to the Committee what the internal political situation was specifically in relation to October 1988? MR KUNENE At that time the then Government had organised municipal elections to be held on that same month, October. There was much made of that upcoming election because it would have been for the first time that all parties that were part of the tricameral parliament would have been voted for on the same day. The majority of the people in this country were against those elections because they were excluded from participating. The majority of the people were also against that election because even the organisations that were operating at the time, those that remained unbanned were against them. The ANC itself, which was at that time banned had issued a statement or an instruction to the effect that its internal members should do whatever they can to indicate that those elections were not supported. So there were many demonstrations that took place at the time. I would refer to it as heightened mass activity at the time. That is the context in which we operated at the time. MS CAMBANIS Mr Kunene, we were discussing that there was a hearing in relation to the arson attack at Khanya House before a TRC Amnesty Committee and that even the Catholic Church at that time was calling for boycotts against this election in October. At the time that you planned this did you have knowledge that even the church bodies were in a position in calling for boycotts in that election? MR KUNENE Yes that is correct. As I've already explained it was not just the ANC which was against the elections but everyone who hoped for fundamental change was against that ...(indistinct) which was going to take place in October. MS CAMBANIS Then Mr Kunene, you said that you ordered the detonation. To whom did you give orders? MR KUNENE It was two persons. I first spoke to Shaun whom I've already mentioned. I also spoke to Tongalito Kamane who was tasked with attacking the West Street branch. Shaun was going to be responsible for the Pinetown branch. MS CAMBANIS And what were your instructions to them? MR KUNENE The instruction was to the effect that these two places should be attacked for the reason that the one CNA in Durban was at the centre of town so attacking that place would have drawn a lot of attention which would have been beneficial to our propaganda purposes. MS CAMBANIS So you didn't, as I understand, the Durban one, you say is located is it at 320? MR KUNENE Yes. MS CAMBANIS And that is a very central Durban CBD? MR KUNENE I would say yes it is central. It is Durban's own Carlton Centre. MS CAMBANIS And in relation to Pinetown, the venue? MR KUNENE Hill Street in Pinetown is also very busy. If sometime took place there, there was no way that it could not be known. MS CAMBANIS Sorry, I didn't get your expression, you said for maximum, because the objective was? MR KUNENE It was to gain exposure as well as maximum propaganda effect. It would also indicate to others that we were in a state of war. MS CAMBANIS Yes and did you tell them what was expected in operation, what they should do? MR KUNENE Yes, that they should use these bombs that were not that powerful. They were supposed to place them at these respective places towards the closure of the shop so that injuries could be minimised. If possible we could also have avoided injury. Still that however sending the message out that we were at war. MS CAMBANIS Mr Kunene, you've seen the statement by Mr Mike Blake and his evidence would be that it actually took place at 12.30 a.m. on a Friday during the lunch - round about lunchtime? Can you dispute that? MR KUNENE Yes I do dispute it. As far as I know the bomb went off during the latter part of the day in the afternoon, not at 12 a.m. MS CAMBANIS But you weren't present when the bomb went off? MR KUNENE I was not present. MS CAMBANIS So you don't have personal knowledge of what time the explosion took place? All you can say ...(intervention) MR LAX Sorry, you don't dispute that Mr Blake was injured in the bomb blast, do you? MR KUNENE No. MR LAX So if he was there and he was actually injured, you can't dispute the timing that he puts to it? He was personally involved unless he is making a mistake, that aside? MR KUNENE As far as I know it went off in the afternoon. MR LAX Well afternoon is capable of sorts of interpretations, I won't go down that road with you. CHAIRPERSON But why do you say it went off in the afternoon, you weren't there? MR KUNENE It's from the report that I received from the person responsible but for the reason that I was not present I cannot be absolutely certain that it was indeed the time I have expressed good as possible that Mr Blake is correct because he was present. MR LAX Yes, it's also possible that because you told the person to place it towards the end of the day where less people might be injured, he might have told you something that wasn't true, when he reported back to you. It's also a possibility? MR KUNENE It's possible. MS CAMBANIS And in relation to the CNA in Durban, do you know what time that - what was reported? Let's begin, you weren't present? MR KUNENE I also know that it went off in the afternoon. MS CAMBANIS But you weren't present? MR KUNENE No, I was not present. MS CAMBANIS And that is only what was reported to you? MR KUNENE That is correct. MS CAMBANIS Now you refer to a low power explosive, to two low power explosives. What do you mean by that? MR KUNENE I was saying the different sorts of bombs. There are those that you can assemble using items that are available over the counter at places such as pharmacies. Those are called ...(indistinct) explosives and they are less powerful than blasting explosives which are normally factory made, for example limpet mines which contains TNT as well as plastic explosives. If you use the ones with low power you do not get the same effect as the other type. There was another precaution taken to effect minimum damage. MS CAMBANIS So you're referring to a home made explosion? MR KUNENE That is correct. MS CAMBANIS And did you in fact assemble one of these or make one, produce one of these explosive devices? MR KUNENE Yes, I assembled one for CNA in the city. The other one was assembled by Shaun. MS CAMBANIS If you look at page 13 of the bundle, there is a report in relation to the Durban bomb and it talks about "stukkie spykers" - pieces of nails. In the explosive that you built, did you include matter such as pieces of nails? MR KUNENE No, there were no nails. MR LAX I know we have an Afrikaans interpreter here. The word "geprakseerde", what does that mean? INTERPRETER There's not a specific Afrikaans translation, it would be manufactured but not following specific rules. MR LAX We can't hear you unfortunately? INTERPRETER Sorry, can you hear me now? MR LAX That's better. INTERPRETER There's not a specific Afrikaans translation, it would be manufactured but the concept would be that it would be without following specific rules. MR LAX It's gone dead. Sorry? INTERPRETER Can you hear me now? MR LAX I can hear you now, yes thank you kindly. INTERPRETER Okay. There's not a specific translation, I don't think. It would be - the English translation would be manufacture but it would be a concept of fabricating something. MR LAX Yes, so the word used here is "geprakseerde ploftoestel". A manufactured explosive device? INTERPRETER Yes, fabricated. MR LAX Fabricated. Okay. Thank you. One can assume that that's home made in the context of this. MS CAMBANIS Yes, thank you. Mr Kunene, you've now stated the objective. I finally want to ask you, in any of these incidents for which you apply did you receive any personal or material gain for executing any of these acts? MR KUNENE No. MS CAMBANIS Would you have any personal grievances against any of the persons involved in these incidents? MR KUNENE No. MS CAMBANIS Thank you Chairperson, that is all. MR LAX Just before you finish your evidence-in-chief, we have Mr Blake who is present who was injured in this incident. Is there anything you might want to say to him before you finish your evidence-in-chief? MR KUNENE Yes there is. I would like to reiterate that there was nothing personal between us. It was a matter between us who were oppressed and the government of the day. All over the world where there is a situation of conflict it happens that innocent people are affected. So I would like to reiterate that there was no personal grudge against him. People like myself were victims of the system, who decided to fight back. Both of us are victims of a system that turned us into enemies when we're both citizens of the same country. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS CAMBANIS CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MAPOMA Shaun and Tongoletu Kamane, were they members of the unit? MR KUNENE Yes they were. MR MAPOMA And who was the commander of that unit? MR KUNENE I would explain to the effect that I reported to Mr Pegineni Napomolo. MR LAX Sorry, Mr Mapoma. His evidence previously was that they were heads of - they were one of the three heads of the units that he supplied with weapons. He has mentioned their names already. MR MAPOMA I see. Thanks, Chairperson. Why did you not yourself participate in these two operations of bombing CNA? MR KUNENE I would not be able to express a reason as such but it was the procedure which we followed. Tongoletu and Shaun had their own units which they commanded. They in turn reported to me and I reported to Mr Napomolo. So it was more an issue of them taking over the responsibilities. MR MAPOMA Now did you order him to place those explosive devices at CNA? MR KUNENE Yes I did. MR MAPOMA Why did you identify CNA as a target? MR KUNENE I would not say we were at war against CNA as such, but it was the location of these stores, the location in the streets that I've already explained about. MR MAPOMA You see I'm asking this question because from the evidence that has been heard from other MK operatives who placed some bombs in the Durban area and - I mean in the Natal area then, they would say they placed a bomb in the government structures because they were fighting against the government or they would place a bomb in some shops because they were pledging solidarity with the workers who were fighting for a living wage from that particular shop and yours - that's why I'm asking what specific reason was it that made you identify CNA as a particular target, CNA in particular. Because if I may also go ahead, it was not CNA only that was in the centre of Durban and it was not CNA only that was at a central place in Pinetown. Why CNA in particular? MR KUNENE As I've already mentioned it was purely a matter of its location. There was no industrial action that we were supporting as regards to that shop. As I've already stated these attacks took place in the context of the activities that were going on around that time of the elections in October. I also explained that it was a propaganda exercise. So I will say no, there was nothing besides what I've already mentioned. We were not at war with CNA. MR MAPOMA Did you not have a personal vendetta against CNA? MR KUNENE No. MR MAPOMA Mr Blake who is here made a statement which says that the bomb that affected him was placed in an area at CNA where there were children's toys and that's an area where potential victims would be small children who were there to buy or watch toys. Were those your intended victims? MR KUNENE No. MR MAPOMA Are you able to explain why that bomb was placed specifically at that place? MR KUNENE I am not in a position to explain such details whether it was placed near a door or next to a window. That is something I cannot explain. CNA was identified as a target and the operators were told to carry this operation out late in the afternoon. Even the explosives that were used were meant to minimise injuries. However, I am not in a position to explain why the person placed the explosive at that particular location. I will say perhaps it was incidental. Perhaps that person felt that that would be an appropriate place to place it for purposes of hiding it. I do not know what was going on in his mind when he was inside the shop. MR MAPOMA And if - I take it you don't dispute that this bomb was placed at a place or near a place where children's toys were at CNA at Pinetown? MR KUNENE No. MR MAPOMA And you're also not in a position to dispute that these bombs at CNA in Pinetown exploded at about 12 o'clock on that day? MR LAX Was that about half past twelve? MR MAPOMA Yes, at about half past twelve. You are not in a position to dispute that as well? MR KUNENE No. MR MAPOMA Now, with the benefit of hindsight now, now that you know that this is what happened, would you concede that that was a badly made operation? MR LAX What do you mean "badly made"? MR MAPOMA Would you concede that was a callous operation on the part of your cadres? MR LAX Well let's put it with a meaning that's intended. What's been put to you is that the people that you gave instructions to, didn't operate with the kind of care that you instructed them to operate? Have I put it a bit more effectively, Mr Mapoma? MR MAPOMA Yes. MR KUNENE Although I would not use such strong words as being callous, it is possible because the issue is the timing of when the bomb went off so it is true that it did not go as planned, but we were not working in a perfect environment. CHAIRPERSON Can I interrupt for a moment at this stage? We have also in the bundle of papers before us what is called the police records of the Harms Commission, which apparently are police records of the event and that at page 13 says "On the 7th October 1988, Friday at 1505." That is five minutes past three in the afternoon. So it would seem that we are not only talking of a bomb going off early in Pinetown but that the one in West Street went off just after three, not near closing time at all? Doesn't that confirm what has just been put to you, that the people who carried out these explosives had no regard to the instructions if in fact they were given such instructions? MR KUNENE It is difficult for me to say they disregarded the instruction. There are many factors that may contribute to a plan not going as arranged so I do not think that I'm in a position to say they were reckless. CHAIRPERSON Because it's clear, is it not, that this bomb went off early before shops closed? MR KUNENE Yes, in terms of these police records, that is so. CHAIRPERSON And in terms of your application? In page 8, paragraph 9(a)iv you say "We got the impression that this mission was accomplished as West Street was closed to traffic and shops also had to close early." MR KUNENE Yes that is correct. MR MAPOMA What did you mean when you said that the mission was accomplished? MR KUNENE What I meant was what had been intended, the awareness that we had intended to create had been effected. That is what I was referring to. It was not in our plan to inflict civilian casualties. I was referring to it as being successful in that sense. In fact in the bomb blast in West Street no one was injured. So that is what I was referring to. It was never an intention to kill people so it was not scores of people who were injured. MR MAPOMA Thank you. Mr Kunene, Mr Blake next to me is just concerned that the bomb in Pinetown which affected him was placed in the children's toys shelf. What would you say to him regarding that? I'm aware it's not you who placed it but those persons did so. What response would you give to Mr Blake to address his concern? MR KUNENE I would say it is a justifiable concern for him. I would say that how you view a situation at the time of war is also different to how you view it in a normal society. In such a normal society you would not expect such things to happen. However, in a society where brother turns against brother, such things do occur. So I do accept his concern and I concede that it justified with the benefit of hindsight and we are looking and analysing issues in an environment which is peaceful and free from oppression. So I would agree with him and say in a normal society such things should not take place. MR MAPOMA Thank you Chairperson, no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MAPOMA MS CAMBANIS No re-examination and that completes the application in respect of this applicant. NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MS CAMBANIS WITNESS EXCUSED NO QUESTIONS BY MS CAMBANIS MR MAPOMA Chairperson, just bear with me? I'm not calling any witness, Chairperson, thank you. MS CAMBANIS IN ARGUMENT Chairperson, I'm only going to address the Committee in relation to the two events concerning the CNA. I'll submit that in relation to the handgrenade attack on the Police and the smuggling of weapons, that Mr Kunene has complied with the requirements of the Act and is entitled to amnesty in relation to those acts. I just want to take up the action, the question of the CNA's in relation to the target selection only. It is true that the targets did not fit in to the usual submissions made before Amnesty Committees about what legitimate targets were. This is the first and ...(indistinct) to Mr Kunene and he has given the evidence relating to the October election and why there was a call for heightened mass action and put more visibility amongst MK and I submit that that would fall into the ANC's submissions where it refers to people being - at page 15: "While keeping a close eye on the development and feelings amongst the people in his community and that would be a response..." page 15, first column on the left ...(intervention) MR LAX You've already referred us to these passages. MS CAMBANIS Yes, thank you. As of in that understanding of the ANC that Mr Kunene acted and gave instructions to respond in relation to the municipal elections to be held. The operatives, unfortunately, aren't here to explain the timing of the explosions or the particulars of where it was exploded, but as far as Mr Kunene is concerned, he has given disclosure of what his instructions were. He explained the political objective associated with it and has revealed everything he knows in relation to these incidents and in those circumstances, I ask that he be granted amnesty in relation to all four incidents including the two CNA explosions. Thank you Chairperson. MR LAX Ms Cambanis, do you know whether these two explosions are mentioned in any of those lists of events within the submissions? MS CAMBANIS They are not, Mr Lax. MR LAX Yes, there are a great many that aren't listed there, I just wandered if by any chance they may have been. MR MAPOMA Chairperson, I have no submission on the merits of the application. I may just for the record point out, Chairperson, that Mr Blake has indicated to me that he is happy to hear that the applicant has been man enough to accept responsibility for what he sees as badly made operations. Thank you Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON The Committee will take time to consider its decision. Where does that leave us? MR MAPOMA Chairperson, that is the roll for today. MR LAX Do we have the Magoso matter tomorrow? MR MAPOMA Yes, tomorrow Chairperson. I would say we are supposed to have the Magoso matter but there are some problems that I'm going to indicate to the Committee that has since come. MR LAX Will you address us in chambers on that? MR MAPOMA Yes. MR LAX Thank you. CHAIRPERSON Does this mean you're departing from us? MS CAMBANIS If I may be excused, Chairperson, please. Thank you. CHAIRPERSON Well thank you for all your assistance to us during this hearing. We'll adjourn until 9 o'clock tomorrow morning. COMMITTEE ADJOURNS