amntrans AMNESTY HEARINGS 2000-09-06 PRETORIA 25 https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=54469&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/2000/200906pt.htm CHAIRPERSON: Mr Visser, I think it was your turn. MR VISSER I believe that Mr Hattingh is still busy Chairperson. MR HATTINGH Yes, Mr Chairman and in fact you gave the witness an opportunity to read through his statement. CHAIRPERSON Quite correct. His statement is in volume 2. ELVIS VINCENT McCASKILL (s.u.o.) CHAIRPERSON I gave you an opportunity to check your statement. You can make whatever amendments you wish to and tell me about them. It's not normally done, but I thought it best in the interest of getting everybody clear on what you're actually saying that we do that. Are you in a position to tell me what amendments you want to make? MR McCASKILL What I did, I read through my statement and I left out what I was not sure about and I added what I thought was left out of the statement. CHAIRPERSON Alright then paragraph 1 as it stands here on page 68, besides the change of Lesotho to Bloemfontein, is there anything else you wish to add to that? MR McCASKILL Nothing... (indistinct) CHAIRPERSON Okay, paragraph 2? MR McCASKILL Wouldn't it be better if I read out what I - like I arranged it? CHAIRPERSON Excuse me? MR McCASKILL Wouldn't it be better if I read it out like I arranged it? CHAIRPERSON No, I'm asking you and I explained to you yesterday, the basis of your statement, testimony is contained on that statement starting at page 68. There are certain issues I've given you an opportunity to change, that's why we're going to go through paragraph by paragraph. All these gentlemen sitting here have gone through this and they've prepared whatever they want to ask you on that basis and ever so now and then you were wanting to change certain aspects of your statement and in order to avoid you doing it on a piecemeal basis, I've given you this opportunity and that's why I want you to tell me what you disagree with, or what you want to change in this statement. Do you understand? MR McCASKILL Yes, Sir. CHAIRPERSON Now you said you're happy with paragraph ...(intervention) MS PATEL Sorry Chairperson, it seems that he's prepared a handwritten statement. CHAIRPERSON I'm quite aware of that. I'm not too interested in that, I'm not going to give him a second chance to give me another statement. Paragraph 2, are you happy with that? Mr Joubert, was this done in consultation with you, or did he do it on his own? MR JOUBERT No, Mr Chair, there was no consultation. He's under cross-examination. I have not assisted him at all. CHAIRPERSON What about paragraph 2? Did you not read this statement? MR McCASKILL I did, but what I did I arranged it out. CHAIRPERSON Mr Hattingh have you got any objections to him reading what he has written? MR HATTINGH I have no objection Mr Chairman. If perhaps we could be given a copy of the handwritten statement at a later stage? CHAIRPERSON Mr Visser have you got any objections? MR VISSER No, Chairperson, but I would agree that if we can have a copy of that, one could possibly ... CHAIRPERSON That goes without saying. I'm just inquiring about the procedure. I mean, I'm not too comfortable with it, but... MR VISSER Chairperson, I'm not really affected, so I don't have grounds for objecting. CHAIRPERSON Mr Lamey? MR LAMEY No, I'll go along with Mr Hattingh's submission, Chairperson. MR NEL It doesn't affect my client either, I've got no objection. CHAIRPERSON Mr Berger? MR BERGER We have no objection. CHAIRPERSON Ms Patel? MS PATEL Same here, thank you Honourable Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Well let's hear what you've got to read out there. Ms Patel would you see to it that that's photostatted and handed out? MR McCASKILL I'll start from paragraph 3. "Kobus contacted me again in September 1985 and I continued to give him false information. He then stopped contacting me. In November 1985 while applying for a six months pass to enter South Africa, I was assisted by a man called Dick, who lived in Riverside Lodge on the South African side of the border. I finally got my pass and was told by Dick that a man by the name of Willie Coetzee fixed my pass. I was introduced to Willie by Dick. In return Willie wanted information about the ANC and the PAC. I later learned that he was with the Security Branch. I gave him false information for a few times, thinking that he would stop when realising that I was lying. He then approached me and told me that I was lying to him and he knew that I was living in a house near the border post. He also mentioned the names of the people that I was living with. He advised me to collaborate with them in order to be out of danger as they had a lot of informers within the ANC and the ...(indistinct) I then started giving true names and addresses of the people that I knew, of the ANC people that I knew. I was then introduced to de Kock, Joe and Adamson by Willie. They asked me a few personal matters and if I had anything that would make them trust me. I told them about hand grenades and a bayonet which belonged to my sister's boyfriend. They asked me if it was possible for me to show them and I said yes, but they would have to arrange for my car not to be searched at the border post. The same day, or maybe even a few days later, they arranged with the border post for my car not to be searched. I can't remember if it was Willie, de Kock or Adamson that I gave the things to, but whoever it was left with the things for about half an hour and then came back and asked me to take them back. On the next meeting I was given the detonators, I was given two detonators and told to remove the original ones and replace them with the ones given to me. I did not do what I was instructed to do. The next meeting, I was asked to identify Leon and his wife from the photo albums. I can't remember if Jackie's photo was in the album, but Leon's was, even though it was from a much earlier age, a much younger age. They wanted to see what he looked like then, so I invited him to the bar and arranged with the Security Police to be there too. That's how they got to know him. The next meeting we had the braai. De Kock, Adamson and other Security Police were present. De Kock said if I assisted them to kill Leon and his wife, they would give me R5 000 for each and any other terrorist. I told them I am not prepared to help - I am prepared to help them in any way, but not to kill. That's when de Kock threatened me by saying he can go to my house and kill me and my family at any time that he wanted to. Then paragraph 9 and 10, I'm happy with. I carry on with paragraph 11. I then gave the gun to Leon and told him that I would take him to the spot where I found that one, as there were more guns there. I did not take him there as I panicked. I lied to de Kock saying that Leon didn't come for the appointment. In fact I lied to Leon and said I went to the spot and found the guns missing. When that plan failed, Joe said they were getting fed up with my excuses. De Kock asked me if I knew about a small annual gathering that was going to be held by the ANC. I told him I would find out. In fact I did find out but this time they came saying the place was too far from the border post. The next plan was the party at my house. They mentioned marked Black Label beers and sleeping pills, but I can't remember if the beers were supplied with the other unmarked ones, I only remember the beers were supplied. The afternoon of the raid, Teddy brought a message that Leon and other comrades wanted to see me. I went to see them. They wanted me to take them to Bloemfontein on the Saturday morning. I was supposed to meet them at the spot about 3 kilometres from the border post on the South African side. I then went with them to a certain coloured man's place, who then put his luggage into my car and then to Leon's place for his luggage. By then I thought I had a plan of stopping the raid by telling de Kock about the next day's trip to Bloemfontein. I went to meet de Kock at the post office as arranged. i told him about the trip and I said we can cancel the raid because they can arrest the two guys on the South African side the next morning. De Kock said they have to go through with the plan as they were here and ready. He then said I should go back to the party and come back, I think he said in an hours time. At the party I did not have the chance to dose the people as most of them were drinking beers, except for one guy, David, who requested me to give him a brandy and coke. There were about ten people at the party, except my family and the ones that I asked to leave. Then it was almost time to go back to the post office. Paragraph 17, I'm happy with. When I went back to my place there were more uninvited guests. That's from paragraph 18. I asked them to leave. I took my brother who was already dosed, to the outside room. Before I left I reminded my girlfriend to take care of my sister and the child within the next half hour. I also realised that Leon and family had already left. By then it was almost 11 o'clock. I went back to de Kock and told him Leon and family had left the party. He told me to follow them to where the other car was parked. That's where we were split. The other group went to my house. Joe Adamson followed me to my workplace where I left my car and joined them as instructed. We then left for Leon's place. I was told to knock on the door. When the door opens I should go to the car and get it ready. They came back and we left and then from, I'm happy with the paragraphs from 20." CHAIRPERSON You're happy with? MR McCASKILL From paragraph 20 it's okay. CHAIRPERSON Right through? MR McCASKILL Yes. CHAIRPERSON Mr Hattingh, have you got any questions as a result of this? MR HATTINGH Yes, Mr Chairman, yes, I have several questions so might I request that we be given a copy of the statement first, I have not been able to take down everything that he said and I'd like to peruse it before I commence with my cross-examination or proceed with my cross-examination? CHAIRPERSON How long? MR HATTINGH Probably about 15 minutes Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON ...(indistinct - mike not on) COMMITTEE ADJOURNS ON RESUMPTION ELVIS VINCENT McCASKILL (s.u.o.) MS PATEL That's all we have, Honourable Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Can anybody help me here, what number Exhibit are we at now? MR VISSER L. CHAIRPERSON L. Thank you Mr Visser. Shall we call this Exhibit L then? Yes Mr Hattingh. MR McCASKILL (s.u.o.) CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR HATTINGH (cont) Mr McCaskill yesterday you indicated that you prefer to testify in Afrikaans. MR McCASKILL That is correct. MR HATTINGH Before we continue with your statements which are now before us, with regard to the first one, may I just ask you, the one that you have now amended, where was this statement of yours taken, the English statement. MR McCASKILL It was in Durban. MR HATTINGH How did it come about that you were in Durban? MR McCASKILL One of the TRC investigators found me in Bloemfontein and he took me down to Durban. MR HATTINGH So he took you down to Durban just to go and make a statement? MR McCASKILL That is correct, yes. MR HATTINGH And there in Durban, who took the statement from you? MR McCASKILL It was an Investigator, I think his name was Pule. MR HATTINGH Was it just the one person who was present when you made the statement? MR McCASKILL No, there were two other persons, it was a Judge, I cannot recall the name and two other persons. MR HATTINGH One of them you think was a Judge. MR McCASKILL Yes. MR HATTINGH And the other one, male or female? MR McCASKILL They were two males. MR HATTINGH And the statement which you made was then typed? MR McCASKILL Yes, as I was asked, the one investigator would sit on a small computer and type as the Judge was asking questions. MR HATTINGH I'm not following you. Are you saying that the statement was typed as you were talking, or did they first take notes? MR McCASKILL They first took notes and thereafter, I cannot recall whether the both of them asked questions or just the one and the Investigator was busy typing. MR HATTINGH And was the statement typed, the one that we have now in bundle 2 from page 68? MR McCASKILL Yes. MR HATTINGH And after it was typed, you said yesterday you read it? MR McCASKILL That's correct. MR HATTINGH And you were satisfied to sign it as such? MR McCASKILL Yes, to me it looked right. MR HATTINGH And was the statement attested to? The copy that we have does not indicate that it was signed by a Commissioner of Oaths. MR McCASKILL No. MR HATTINGH Was it not attested to? MR McCASKILL No. MR HATTINGH And thereafter you consulted with your present legal representative who is sitting next to you with regard to this statement, is that correct? MR McCASKILL That is correct, yes. MR HATTINGH Did he go through this with you paragraph by paragraph? MR McCASKILL That's right. MR HATTINGH ; And did he ask you for your comment or ask you to say whether what is written there is incorrect, or not? MR McCASKILL Yes, I indicated a few mistakes that I saw there. MR HATTINGH You say during consultation you pointed out a few mistakes? MR McCASKILL That's correct. MR HATTINGH Were these the mistakes that you rectified yesterday? MR McCASKILL That's correct. MR HATTINGH While you were led by Mr Joubert? MR McCASKILL That is correct, yes. MR HATTINGH And in cross-examination you came to point out a few more mistakes? MR McCASKILL That's correct. MR HATTINGH And then you were given the opportunity by the Chairperson to go back and to read the statement properly and to see where there are more mistakes? MR McCASKILL That's correct. MR HATTINGH And this statement, Exhibit L that you handed in today, you are saying that that is the correct version? MR McCASKILL As I know, yes. MR HATTINGH As you recall today? MR McCASKILL Yes. MR HATTINGH I would just like to ask also, is it correct when I say that yesterday you said the reason why you want to make these further corrections is because during the evidence that you have listened to, this assisted you in remembering. MR McCASKILL That is correct. MR HATTINGH Are you certain thereof? MR McCASKILL I am certain. MR HATTINGH And that is the reason why you made these corrections? MR McCASKILL That is one of the reasons yes. MR HATTINGH So what are the other reasons? What helped you to recall what the truth is? MR McCASKILL Yesterday I was asked whether I saw here that there were other bits and pieces that were not in here. CHAIRPERSON Listen to the question. Your initial statement was made and you say that you were satisfied with it and you signed it? MR McCASKILL That's correct. CHAIRPERSON You went through that statement with your attorney? MR McCASKILL That is correct. CHAIRPERSON And you thought it was correct and the corrections that you effected. MR McCASKILL That's correct. CHAIRPERSON Back then with your attorney? MR McCASKILL That's correct, yes. CHAIRPERSON And now you come and say that there are further corrections which you would like to effect and the reason for this is because now that you have heard the evidence of all the applicants you recall now that there are certain things that are not entirely correct? MR McCASKILL That's correct, yes. CHAIRPERSON I can understand that and I will remember that. Is there any other reason that causes you to remember that there are certain omissions or incorrect facts? MR McCASKILL No. CHAIRPERSON It is just what they had given evidence about that made you remember what was right then? MR McCASKILL That's correct, yes. MR HATTINGH Thank you Chairperson. Mr McCaskill, Mr de Kock had already a long time testified about this incident, is that not so? MR McCASKILL That's correct. MR HATTINGH And he spoke about the whole incident, is that so? MR McCASKILL That's correct yes. MR HATTINGH Did he say anything that joggled your memory? MR McCASKILL Certain things. MR HATTINGH And since our last sitting in this matter up till before we started yesterday again, you must have consulted with your attorney, Mr Joubert again, is that not so? MR McCASKILL That is correct. MR HATTINGH And then you had the opportunity to tell him: "Listen Mr de Kock joggled my memory about this and that and there are certain corrections which I would like to effect to my statement." MR McCASKILL That is correct, yes. MR HATTINGH Well further ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON Sorry Mr Hattingh. Except for two of the applicants everybody has already testified up to the end of the last sitting, so in the same manner, whatever you might have recalled from the evidence of all the applicants, except for the last two, what Mr Hattingh says about Mr de Kock's evidence is also applicable to the other evidence, is that not so? MR McCASKILL That is correct yes. MR LAMEY Chairperson, may I just enter here? Mr Nortje on a previous occasion also gave evidence, it was just his cross-examination with regard to Mr Berger that was completed yesterday. CHAIRPERSON And in the favour of the witness, I will leave him out. Best for him is without the last two witnesses. MR HATTINGH Now Mr McCaskill, you were present when Mr Nortje was cross-examined during the course of this week by Mr Berger and other persons and you were also present when Mr Bosch gave evidence and was cross-examined, is that correct? MR McCASKILL That is correct. MR HATTINGH And there were adjournments for lunch and tea in between during the course of the evidence, is that so? MR McCASKILL Yes. MR HATTINGH And if they ad refreshed your memory with regard to certain incidents, you've had the opportunity of indicating those facts to your attorney. MR McCASKILL That's correct. MR HATTINGH Before you could give evidence. MR McCASKILL That is correct. MR HATTINGH And when you came to give evidence yesterday, you had already listened to all the evidence that had joggled your memory and you had the opportunity of fixing your attorney's attention on any amendments or corrections which you would like to effect and then amendments were brought about in your statement, is that correct? MR McCASKILL That is correct. MR HATTINGH And under cross-examination there were more amendments. MR McCASKILL That's correct. MR HATTINGH And now it would appear - I did not have enough time to study your statement and to compare it with what you had said previously, but looking at it for the first time, it would appear that there are new amendments in the new statement in contrast with those in your old statement, other than the ones that you had mentioned yesterday? MR McCASKILL That is correct. MR HATTINGH So why weren't these corrections made, not when you were led by your advocate in your evidence -in-chief and you had effected the amendments paragraph by paragraph, that you had wanted to? MR McCASKILL There were a few things that yesterday, that I could remember correctly that this gentleman had asked me, the meeting with Mr de Kock. MR HATTINGH Very well, let us for the present leave the differences between the statements there. We shall deal with your version. You first supplied information to the Ladybrand branch. MR McCASKILL That's correct. MR HATTINGH Do you still say that you initially gave them false information? MR McCASKILL Yes, initially. MR HATTINGH Now in the new statement you say that you were confronted or the man came to tell you that the information you were giving was not true, was that Mr de Kock? MR McCASKILL No, it was not. It was not Mr de Kock. MR HATTINGH Who was it then? MR McCASKILL It was Mr Coetzee. Mr Willie Coetzee. MR HATTINGH He comes to you and says: "Listen here, we have many ANC sources and so forth and we know the information that you are giving us is not correct and did he threaten you then? MR McCASKILL No. MR HATTINGH Not at all? he didn't threaten you and say that: "If you don't give us the correct information, this or that will happen to your family"? MR McCASKILL He just told me, gave me advice, I will not take it as a threat. MR HATTINGH Why were you then prepared to give correct information? MR McCASKILL Because I found out that they knew of everything that was going on. MR HATTINGH They found out that you were lying to them? MR McCASKILL That is correct. MR HATTINGH But at that stage you had not been threatened yet? MR McCASKILL No, not yet. MR HATTINGH In other words, you voluntarily worked with them? MR McCASKILL I would say that, but after the advice I decided... MR HATTINGH So while you, initially you were not willing to give correct information and gave them false information, why later were you prepared to be willing and without having to be influenced or threatened to do so and supply them with correct information? MR McCASKILL I saw that it would not help me with anything and that they knew what was going on and I may be endangered if I do not play along. MR HATTINGH But you were in danger when you gave the false information. MR McCASKILL I thought that - the first time I thought that if I give them false information they would leave me, like Mr Kobus had. JUDGE KHAMPEPE ; Why did you think you were in danger? They had not threatened you? MR McCASKILL No I didn't think I was in danger. JUDGE KHAMPEPE I thought that's what you said. MR McCASKILL I said I did it because I saw it was not helping me, they knew everything. CHAIRPERSON You spoke of danger. MR McCASKILL Mr Willie gave me advice that my life would be in danger. CHAIRPERSON So now we are back at the danger now. So what is the truth? Either you were threatened or you were not threatened. MR McCASKILL I did not take it as a threat. CHAIRPERSON Sir, I am not asking how you interpreted it. Were you threatened or not? MR McCASKILL I will say I was threatened. CHAIRPERSON No, don't just say, I am asking whether you were threatened or not? MR McCASKILL I was not threatened. JUDGE KHAMPEPE ; Are you changing what you've stated also in your amended statement? In your statement you say that you were advised by Mr Coetzee to collaborate in order to be out of danger. This is the statement you've just handed to us a few seconds ago. MR McCASKILL That's what he said to me. JUDGE KHAMPEPE ; So did you co-operate because you thought you were in danger? MR McCASKILL Because I took his advice. JUDGE KHAMPEPE Pursuant to him having said to you: "If you do not co-operate we will do something to you"? MR McCASKILL Yes, I'll take it ... JUDGE KHAMPEPE What did he say he would do to you if you didn't co-operate? MR McCASKILL He didn't tell me what he will do, but he just told me that if I didn't co-operate I'll be in danger because they knew, they had a lot of ANC informers and Lesotho informers. CHAIRPERSON What would the ANC informers have done to you if they found out that you were giving information to the police? MR McCASKILL They would have killed me probably. CHAIRPERSON But why? You were supplying false information. MR McCASKILL I think that what I should have done, I should have told them initially when the thing was right in it's initial stages that I would not. CHAIRPERSON Mr McCaskill, we are not playing games here. This will begin in two weeks time in Australia. I am asking you simply why do you think that the ANC cadres would have killed you if they found out that you were feeding false information to the Security Police? MR McCASKILL I think so, because they wouldn't have trusted me and they do not like people who sell them out. CHAIRPERSON But according to your evidence, you were not selling them out. MR McCASKILL Yes, I just supplied false information. CHAIRPERSON Ja, well that's not selling out. That's in fact doing them favours. Not so? MR McCASKILL That's correct. CHAIRPERSON Now where was the danger then? MR McCASKILL I think I took Mr Willie's advice because I was, I don't know ... CHAIRPERSON No, the advice as you understood it, that they would leave you to the cadres of the ANC and they would possibly injure you or kill you, that was the danger. But at that stage you were giving false information to the police so there was no danger that the cadres would have killed you or have injured you. MR McCASKILL That's correct. CHAIRPERSON Is that not so? MR McCASKILL That's correct. CHAIRPERSON So what advice did you follow then? MR McCASKILL Then I would take Mr Coetzee's words as a threat. JUDGE KHAMPEPE Mr McCaskill for how long had you been supplying Mr Coetzee with this false information before you had given this ... CHAIRPERSON It wasn't for a long time. JUDGE KHAMPEPE Yes, approximately? MR McCASKILL I think maybe two or three times. JUDGE KHAMPEPE Which spanned over which period? I mean your first contact with him was around November. MR McCASKILL Yes. Maybe two or three days or so, not a long time. JUDGE KHAMPEPE Three days in succession. MR McCASKILL I'd say two or three days. JUDGE KHAMPEPE In November. MR McCASKILL Yes. JUDGE KHAMPEPE And this is early November? MR McCASKILL I can't remember. JUDGE KHAMPEPE You can respond to me in Afrikaans because that's the language you feel most comfortable in. MR McCASKILL I cannot recall whether it was in the middle of November or the beginning of November. JUDGE KHAMPEPE Yes, but it was after you had supplied false information for about two to three times? MR McCASKILL Correct. JUDGE KHAMPEPE Thank you Mr Hattingh. CHAIRPERSON Mr Hattingh I think the King is in the middle of the Chess board. Please continue. MR HATTINGH Thank you Chairperson. Mr McCaskill what do you mean in paragraph 2 with the words "he told me..." Exhibit L , not paragraph 2 Chairperson, I beg your pardon. Paragraph 4 where you say "he then approached me and told me I was lying to him and he knew that I was living in a house near the border post. He also mentioned the name of the people I was living with." What did you understand by that? What did you think he meant when he said that: "I know where you live and I know all the people who live with you there"? MR McCASKILL I understood that, I didn't expect that he would know where I lived and he may know people who are with me who are ANC members. MR HATTINGH Did you not regard this as a threat towards you and your family that you should collaborate because we know where you are and where you family is? MR McCASKILL It could be. MR HATTINGH But did you regard it such, Mr McCaskill? MR McCASKILL I cannot recall, I really cannot remember. MR HATTINGH And then you started giving him correct information. I would just like to take Judge Khampepe's question a little further. For how long, I'm not asking how many times, but over what period did you give them correct information? MR McCASKILL This was before I met Mr de Kock? MR HATTINGH Before you met Mr de Kock. MR McCASKILL It could be two or three weeks. MR HATTINGH Very well. May I then ask you now, during those two or three weeks, approximately how many times were you in contact with Mr Coetzee? MR McCASKILL I cannot - I will estimate ten, about ten times. MR HATTINGH I will not hold you to that, I just want an estimation. How did you manage to contact each other? Did you go to him when you had information or did he call you and tell you: "Come and speak to me", or what happened? MR McCASKILL I think from the time I met him the first time, we always had an appointment, they didn't want to call to my place. MR HATTINGH So every time he agreed on a time with you that you would meet? MR McCASKILL Or he asked me when I would come through so that I could come to him, or every time when I come through - I cannot recall how it worked. MR HATTINGH And where did you go to speak to him? MR McCASKILL I beg your pardon? MR HATTINGH Where did you go speak to him? MR McCASKILL In Ladybrand. MR HATTINGH But where in Ladybrand? MR McCASKILL There was a place in between the trees there at the Group 36 army base in Ladybrand. MR HATTINGH In the field? MR McCASKILL Yes. MR HATTINGH So there must have been an agreement that you would meet each other there? MR McCASKILL That's correct. MR HATTINGH And the reason was that he did not want and you also did not want other people to see that you had liaison with him? MR McCASKILL That's correct yes. MR HATTINGH And the information that you gave to him, what information was this? MR McCASKILL It was mostly names and pointing out people in the photo album, or the address of someone whom they were looking for. MR HATTINGH But all of this, the pointing out of photo albums, you could have done that once, you couldn't have done that all the time when you came there. MR McCASKILL No. MR HATTINGH So you must have given other information as well. MR McCASKILL Yes, like maybe when they would ask where certain persons lived. MR HATTINGH They knew that you were friends with some of these people. MR McCASKILL Yes. MR HATTINGH And that you had regular contact with them. MR McCASKILL That is correct. MR HATTINGH And that is why they believed that you knew what they were busy with. MR McCASKILL No I explained to them right from the start that I did not know what they were busying themselves with, but I knew some of these people and I knew where some of them lived. MR HATTINGH How did you know that some of these people about whom you were supplying information were members of the ANC? MR McCASKILL I knew. MR HATTINGH But I'm asking, how did you know? MR McCASKILL There was a man by the name of Dick, he was my sister's boyfriend. We spoke about this, but I would have, if this thing did not happen. CHAIRPERSON I'm asking whether you were a member of the ANC. MR McCASKILL No, I was not. MR HATTINGH I think you added that you would have been a member of the ANC if this thing did not happen. MR McCASKILL Yes. MR HATTINGH This Dick, is this the person who went out with your sister? MR McCASKILL That's correct. MR HATTINGH Was he a member of the ANC? MR McCASKILL That is correct. MR HATTINGH Was he a member of MK? MR McCASKILL That's correct. MR HATTINGH Is that what he told you, or is this what your sister told you? MR McCASKILL No I did not discuss anything with my sister. MR HATTINGH So you discussed this with Dick himself? MR McCASKILL Yes. MR HATTINGH So he told you he was MK? MR McCASKILL Yes. MR HATTINGH What about the other people, did they also tell you that they were members of the ANC, or that they were trained MK members? MR McCASKILL No. MR HATTINGH Did you know for example what Mr Joe Meyer was? MR McCASKILL Yes I knew. MR HATTINGH Was he a member of MK? MR McCASKILL That is correct. MR HATTINGH How did you know that? MR McCASKILL I heard this from Dick. MR HATTINGH From Dick? Not from Mr Meyer himself? MR McCASKILL No. MR HATTINGH And the other persons whom you supplied information about, how did you know that they were all members of the ANC? MR McCASKILL There were certain times that they met in the house and then they would have something like a meeting. MR HATTINGH How did you know about these meetings? MR McCASKILL I saw that they would get together and talk. MR HATTINGH At whose house would they have these meetings? MR McCASKILL At my house. MR HATTINGH At your house? And were you then present during these meetings? MR McCASKILL No. MR HATTINGH So why would they hold these meetings at your house? MR McCASKILL Because Dick and I lived in one house. We shared the rent every month. It was not my house alone. MR HATTINGH So they regularly met there? MR McCASKILL That is correct. MR HATTINGH And you could see who came to the meetings? MR McCASKILL That is correct. MR HATTINGH And did Dick tell you that it was a meeting of the MK or ANC? MR McCASKILL No, that's what I thought myself. MR HATTINGH And did you know these people who attended the meeting? MR McCASKILL Most of them, yes. MR HATTINGH Were you friends with them? MR McCASKILL A few of them, yes. MR HATTINGH Amongst others, Mr Meyer and his wife? MR McCASKILL That's correct. MR HATTINGH Did you visit their houses and they visited your house? MR McCASKILL Yes. MR HATTINGH So you knew them well? MR McCASKILL Reasonably well, yes. MR HATTINGH Mr Meyer, what was he doing in Lesotho? Did he have a fixed job? MR McCASKILL No. MR HATTINGH Do you know how he earned an income? MR McCASKILL Dick told me that it was an allowance that they received every month. MR HATTINGH From the ANC? MR McCASKILL That is correct. MR HATTINGH Do you know if his wife knew about this allowance that he received every month? MR McCASKILL I don't know. MR HATTINGH You would not know. Do you know whether his wife knew that he was a member of MK? MR McCASKILL I would not know. MR HATTINGH But were these things never discussed? MR McCASKILL I beg your pardon? MR HATTINGH Were these things never discussed whenever you visited each other? MR McCASKILL No. MR HATTINGH Why not? MR McCASKILL No, we did not discuss the ANC we just discussed things that we knew about. MR HATTINGH But earlier on you indicated that you would probably have become a member of the ANC. MR McCASKILL That's correct. MR HATTINGH So you were sympathetic towards them. MR McCASKILL Before Dick had left the country, he was busy recruiting me before he left the country. MR HATTINGH Who? MR McCASKILL Dick. MR HATTINGH Dick was busy recruiting you? MR McCASKILL Yes. MR HATTINGH And you want to be recruited, you were willing to be recruited? MR McCASKILL Yes. MR HATTINGH And you told Dick this? MR McCASKILL Yes. MR HATTINGH And one could probably accept that Dick may have told his colleagues? MR McCASKILL I don't know. MR HATTINGH When did this happen, that Dick found out that you were willing to become a member of the ANC? MR McCASKILL This was before he left the country. MR HATTINGH Which year was that? MR McCASKILL It was in the same year, 85. MR HATTINGH Did he ever discuss it with you again? MR McCASKILL We did not see each other again. MR HATTINGH Never again? MR McCASKILL Yes. MR HATTINGH So nobody came to ask you to sign a form or sign a card so that you could prove that you were a member of the ANC? MR McCASKILL No. MR HATTINGH So you never attended a meeting again? MR McCASKILL No. MR HATTINGH So here we have a person that Dick knows is willing to become a member of the ANC and this is not taken any further? MR McCASKILL That is correct. MR HATTINGH If he had asked you to join and to pay your membership fees and become a card carrying member of the ANC, would you have done so? MR McCASKILL Yes. MR HATTINGH And it would appear to me Mr McCaskill that you in any case had the trust of these people, they trusted you. MR McCASKILL That's correct. MR HATTINGH Otherwise they would not have asked you to take them out of the country. CHAIRPERSON Mr Hattingh when you are at a convenient point, we can adjourn for tea. MR HATTINGH They would not have asked you to take them out as they asked you to take them out that night or the following day? MR McCASKILL Yes. MR HATTINGH Thank you Chairperson. COMMITTEE ADJOURNS ON RESUMPTION RECORDING STARTS HERE AFTER ADJOURNMENT ELVIS VINCENT McCASKILL (s.u.o.) CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR HATTINGH (Cont) ... and I assume that while it was your house, they certainly would not have prohibited you from entering your house while they were busy with meetings. MR McCASKILL No, they always told me when they were going to have meetings. MR HATTINGH And then you were not supposed to be there? MR McCASKILL That is correct. MR HATTINGH Were you married or were you living with anyone? MR McCASKILL I was living with a woman. MR HATTINGH Did you have a child or children with her? MR McCASKILL No. MR HATTINGH Was she also supposed to leave the house when these meetings took place? MR McCASKILL It was a big house, there was a lot of room. She may have been busy in another part of the house. MR HATTINGH Then you yourself could also have been in a different part of the house while the meetings were underway. MR McCASKILL That's correct. MR HATTINGH Were you sometimes in the house when meetings took place? MR McCASKILL That is correct. MR HATTINGH And to such an extent you were a confidant, that you even knew that Sizwe had weapons in the house. MR McCASKILL That is correct. MR HATTINGH And then you certainly must have known that they were involved in attacks which were described at that stage as acts of terrorism? MR McCASKILL No, not at all. MR HATTINGH Not at all? Then what did you think they were busy with if they were members of MK? MR McCASKILL I didn't know and I didn't think about it. CHAIRPERSON Didn't you really think about it? Then where in the world were you living? MR McCASKILL I didn't know anything about the people I was living with. CHAIRPERSON Proceed Mr Hattingh. MR HATTINGH Thank you Chair. You have MK members who are busy with meetings, one lives in the house with you, he has weapons. Didn't you think that they were involved in attacks? MR McCASKILL No, I didn't. MR HATTINGH Didn't you ask? MR McCASKILL No. MR HATTINGH Let us restrict ourselves to Sizwe for the time being. He didn't have a permanent job either? MR McCASKILL No. MR HATTINGH He also received a similar allowance? MR McCASKILL That is correct. MR HATTINGH Did he sometimes leave the country? MR McCASKILL That is correct. MR HATTINGH Alone or with any of the other MK members? MR McCASKILL I wouldn't know. MR HATTINGH And do you know where he went upon the occasions that he left the country? And when I refer to the country I mean Lesotho. MR McCASKILL I only know about the last time that he went away. MR HATTINGH Do you know where he went? MR McCASKILL Yes. MR HATTINGH Where did he go? MR McCASKILL He said he was going to Zambia. MR HATTINGH Where to? MR McCASKILL Zambia. MR HATTINGH What was he going to do there? MR McCASKILL He didn't tell me. MR HATTINGH Didn't you ask him? MR McCASKILL No. MR HATTINGH But he is your friend, living with you in the house. Were you that uninvolved in his life that you didn't even ask him what he was going to do in Zambia? MR McCASKILL He said that he was going to a conference. I didn't ask any other questions. MR HATTINGH They trusted you and you yourself were interested in becoming an ANC member, but you didn't ask them at all regarding what they were busy with? MR McCASKILL No, I didn't. JUDGE KHAMPEPE How long did you live with Dick in the same house? MR McCASKILL I think it's maybe a year or so. JUDGE KHAMPEPE A year? MR McCASKILL Ja. JUDGE KHAMPEPE And during that period you saw people coming to meetings with Dick? MR McCASKILL Yes. JUDGE KHAMPEPE And he had already formed a relationship with your sister? MR McCASKILL They were already living together, ja. JUDGE KHAMPEPE Your sister was also living in the same house? MR McCASKILL That's correct. MR HATTINGH Thank you Mr Chairman. Now what about Mr Meyer, did you know whether he left Lesotho upon any occasions? MR McCASKILL No. MR HATTINGH Not at all? MR McCASKILL Not at all. MR HATTINGH And did you know if any of the other members who were having meetings there ever left the country? MR McCASKILL No. MR HATTINGH There was evidence that the police in Ladybrand obtained information from the Meyer side which indicated that they were planning to enter the Republic over the festive season to commit acts of terrorism. Did you know anything about that? MR McCASKILL No. CHAIRPERSON Mr Hattingh, what was the date? MR HATTINGH Of what, Chairperson? CHAIRPERSON When he heard that they would be entering. Did you mention a date? MR HATTINGH No, I didn't. CHAIRPERSON Very well. MR HATTINGH I simply said that they were planning on entering the country to launch attacks over the festive season. You didn't know anything about that? MR McCASKILL No. MR HATTINGH Did you know many ANC and MK members were in Lesotho? MR McCASKILL No. MR HATTINGH Did you know of more than those who held meetings in your house? MR McCASKILL Yes. MR HATTINGH How many people attended meetings in your house? MR McCASKILL It wasn't always the same ever time. Sometimes it would be seven to ten persons, another it would be eleven. MR HATTINGH So it would be anything from seven to twelve on various occasions. MR McCASKILL That is correct. MR HATTINGH So you knew that there was a large number of persons active in Lesotho? MR McCASKILL That is correct. MR HATTINGH Who asked you to bring Mr Meyer to the Republic that night? MR McCASKILL He himself. MR HATTINGH Did he say what he was going to do? MR McCASKILL No. MR HATTINGH Did you ask? MR McCASKILL No. MR HATTINGH Did he tell you that it was a secret mission? MR McCASKILL No. MR HATTINGH Did he say what time you would be departing? MR McCASKILL Yes. MR HATTINGH What time did he say you would be departing? MR McCASKILL Just as soon as the border post had opened. MR HATTINGH Would he have gone through the border post? MR McCASKILL No. MR HATTINGH Would he cross the border illegally? MR McCASKILL I don't know, but he told me he would meet me on the other side. MR HATTINGH You would have to go through the border post and meet him on the other side? MR McCASKILL Yes. MR HATTINGH You must have deduced that he'd be crossing illegally? MR McCASKILL That is correct. MR HATTINGH And he would be on an illegal mission? MR McCASKILL Yes, that is correct. MR HATTINGH Did you know that? MR McCASKILL No, I didn't know. MR HATTINGH Were any of the other persons who attended these meetings at your house, armed upon the occasions that they arrived there? MR McCASKILL No. MR HATTINGH Were there not any pistols or guns or anything like that in their possession? MR McCASKILL No. MR HATTINGH Before I digress too much from the point of your acquaintance with Mr Coetzee, you said that a certain Dick told you that it was Willie Coetzee who assisted you in obtaining the pass. MR McCASKILL That is correct. MR HATTINGH It was the six month pass? MR McCASKILL That is correct. MR HATTINGH Is that a document that enabled you to travel freely between Lesotho and the Republic, or what sort of document was it? MR McCASKILL It was a document that made it possible for me not to have to fill in the necessary forms every time. MR HATTINGH So you would show the document and you'd have passage? MR McCASKILL That is correct. MR HATTINGH You would just go to the gate and show the document? And you said it was Dick who told you that it was Willie Coetzee who had assisted you? MR McCASKILL That is correct. MR HATTINGH And according to your written affidavit, Exhibit L, you state that he, Dick, introduced you to Willie Coetzee? MR McCASKILL That is correct. MR HATTINGH And where did this introduction take place? MR McCASKILL At the Riverside Lodge. MR HATTINGH Did Dick or is that where Dick resided? MR McCASKILL Yes. MR HATTINGH Did he ask you to go there? MR McCASKILL I went there regularly. MR HATTINGH Was Dick a friend of yours? MR McCASKILL No. MR HATTINGH Then what were you doing at the Lodge? MR McCASKILL There was a sports bar of sorts. MR HATTINGH So you were there socially? MR McCASKILL That is correct. MR HATTINGH And at the Riverside Lodge, you were introduced by Dick to Willie Coetzee? MR McCASKILL That is correct. MR HATTINGH If I may return to your affidavit in Bundle 2 on page 68, paragraph 4, you state the following "On a particular day in the late 1985, as I was crossing the border post, I was approached by Willem Coetzee" this you later changed to Willie Coetzee. "I later learned that he was a Security Branch Police at Ladybrand." Is that false, or incorrect? MR McCASKILL I have amended it. MR HATTINGH So that version is totally incorrect? MR McCASKILL Yes. MR HATTINGH Well how could you have made such a tremendous mistake, Mr McCaskill, because you went to this Lodge socially quite often and that's where you were introduced to Mr Coetzee, yet in your other statement you stated that he approached you while you were crossing the border and those are really two completely contradictory versions. MR McCASKILL It is a mistake that I made. MR HATTINGH Yes, but my question is how did you make this mistake? CHAIRPERSON Even then, how could you have made the mistake? INTERPRETER The interpreter did not hear the response of the witness. CHAIRPERSON Could you repeat your response for the interpreter? MR McCASKILL My last answer was that I simply must have forgotten. CHAIRPERSON Mr McCaskill as your evidence progresses, I find it all the more difficult to understand your evidence because that response doesn't make any sense in terms of the question that was put to you. The question was how is it that you could have made such a mistake and your answer is that you simply must have forgotten and that doesn't make any sense to me. MR McCASKILL I don't know how it came to be that I made so many mistakes. CHAIRPERSON No, we are referring to that particular mistake. It is a totally different version regarding how you came to meet Willie Coetzee and that is what the advocate has put to you. We accept the difference, the question is how could this have happened that you would provide two different versions regarding the same point? It is not a question of the wrong date, or the wrong name, or a spelling error, the entire event in itself is different. Are you in a position to explain that? MR McCASKILL I really cannot say how this came to be. CHAIRPERSON He cannot explain it. MR HATTINGH Thank you Chair. Very well, Mr McCaskill, let us return to the meetings. These meetings that were held at your house, did I understand you correctly, because I'm not certain whether I heard you correctly, these meetings took place for approximately a year long before the incident itself took place, in other words for a year the people would meet in your house? MR McCASKILL No, I didn't say that. MR HATTINGH Then how long before the incident did these meetings take place at your house? MR McCASKILL I would say from the point that we moved into that house. MR HATTINGH Then how long before the incident was that? MR McCASKILL Probably three months. MR HATTINGH Approximately three months, it may even have been somewhat longer? MR McCASKILL Yes, we may have stayed there for even longer. MR HATTINGH And so for that period of time the meetings were held in your house? MR McCASKILL That is correct. MR HATTINGH When you conveyed the information to Mr Coetzee during these rendezvous with him, did you tell him about these meetings? MR McCASKILL Yes. MR HATTINGH You did? MR McCASKILL Yes. MR HATTINGH Did you tell him who was present during these meetings? MR McCASKILL That is correct. MR HATTINGH Did you mention all the names that you knew? MR McCASKILL Yes. MR HATTINGH But you couldn't tell him what they had discussed? MR McCASKILL That is correct. MR HATTINGH But didn't he ask you to try and find out or hear what they were discussing? MR McCASKILL That is correct. MR HATTINGH And in which room in the house did they hold the meetings? MR McCASKILL In the lounge. MR HATTINGH And I'm assuming that they did not lower the speaking volume of their voices? MR McCASKILL No, they did not. MR HATTINGH So if you wanted to, you could easily have eavesdropped on what they were saying? MR McCASKILL Yes. MR HATTINGH And now you were asked to do so, and did you do so? MR McCASKILL No,I never did so. Upon an occasion they mentioned that they were going to give me something that I could place in the house which would ... MR HATTINGH Would it have been something like a tapping device that you would conceal? MR McCASKILL Yes. MR HATTINGH But that never happened? MR McCASKILL That is correct. MR HATTINGH But then they asked you to eavesdrop and then tell them what was said? MR McCASKILL Yes, but I was somewhat afraid of doing that. MR HATTINGH Why were you scared? MR McCASKILL Because they always asked me if it would be appropriate for them to meet in the house. They always asked me in a very polite manner. CHAIRPERSON This must have been in Lesotho? MR McCASKILL That's correct. CHAIRPERSON I thought it was Ellis Park. MR HATTINGH So they would ask you very politely if they could meet there? MR McCASKILL Yes. MR HATTINGH They would ask you to excuse them during the meetings and they trusted you. MR McCASKILL Yes. MR HATTINGH And one of them asked you to become a member of the ANC? MR McCASKILL That is correct. MR HATTINGH Then why were you afraid of eavesdropping on what they said? MR McCASKILL It wasn't easy to do so. MR HATTINGH Why wasn't it easy? MR McCASKILL Because they would sit in the lounge and I couldn't stand in the room and try to listen, I would have to stand by the window, I would have to hold my ear to the window. MR HATTINGH But weren't there any other rooms leading off the lounge? MR McCASKILL No, the lounge and the kitchen were open plan and then there were two rooms on the other side. MR HATTINGH Did these rooms lead off from the lounge? MR McCASKILL Yes. MR HATTINGH So from the lounge you would enter a bedroom? So if you were in the bedroom and the door was open, couldn't you hear what was going on in the lounge? MR McCASKILL No. MR HATTINGH Did you explain to these people why you couldn't tell them what had happened? MR McCASKILL Yes, I did, that's why they said that they were going to give me a device to put in the house. MR HATTINGH And why didn't they give you such a device? MR McCASKILL I don't know. CHAIRPERSON Was this at the stage when you were giving the correct information to the police? MR McCASKILL Yes CHAIRPERSON Possibly they thought it wasn't necessary to plant anything there. MR McCASKILL I don't know why the didn't give the device. CHAIRPERSON I wanted to ask you this later, but you can tell me now. How is it that you were in a position to tell them the truth, if you didn't eavesdrop on these people? MR McCASKILL To tell the truth to the Security Police? CHAIRPERSON Yes, there was a stage that you lied to them. MR McCASKILL Yes. CHAIRPERSON And then you decided that you would tell them the truth. MR McCASKILL That is correct. CHAIRPERSON As your evidence has progressed, some of the information that you gave them that was the truth was about these meetings which were taking place in your house, isn't that correct? MR McCASKILL Yes, that is. CHAIRPERSON And you've just told Adv Hattingh that you never eavesdropped on them. MR McCASKILL That is correct. CHAIRPERSON And there were certain reasons for this. But how then were you capable of telling the truth to the police and providing facts if you didn't eavesdrop on them? MR McCASKILL I simply told the police what I knew, I couldn't tell them what I didn't know. CHAIRPERSON Yes, but how did you determine what was going on in the meetings? MR McCASKILL I didn't know what was going on in the meetings. CHAIRPERSON Are you saying that you never informed the police regarding aspects of those meetings? MR McCASKILL Never. CHAIRPERSON Then what was your information about? MR McCASKILL All that I gave them were names and addresses, that's all and I also made identifications in the photo albums. CHAIRPERSON That's all? MR McCASKILL That's all. CHAIRPERSON Nothing further? MR McCASKILL That is correct. That is all that I knew of these people. CHAIRPERSON Your entire career of betraying the ANC members never involved the provision of any other information with the exception of names and addresses? MR McCASKILL That is correct. CHAIRPERSON Are you certain? MR McCASKILL Yes. CHAIRPERSON Because it is very significant. MR McCASKILL Yes, I am certain. MR HATTINGH Thank you Chair. CHAIRPERSON Are you the person who told them that there would be a certain number of ANC persons infiltrating South Africa? MR McCASKILL No. CHAIRPERSON Did they hear this from another source? MR McCASKILL Most probably. CHAIRPERSON I beg your pardon? MR McCASKILL Most probably, but not from me. CHAIRPERSON So you found out from the police that there were people who were going to come back to the RSA? MR McCASKILL I never heard this. CHAIRPERSON But the party was aimed at bringing these people together at your house? MR McCASKILL Not that I know of. CHAIRPERSON Then how did you know who you were supposed to bring to the party? MR McCASKILL They told me about Leon and the others, and the other ANC members, they didn't say the Leon Meyer group or anything like that. CHAIRPERSON That's not what you said in your affidavit, but in any event , continue. MR HATTINGH Thank you Chair. Mr McCaskill, you also added that you told them about the meetings, that meetings were taking place in your house. MR McCASKILL That is correct. MR HATTINGH And you also told them who attended the meetings. MR McCASKILL That is correct. MR HATTINGH And later you said that it would always be different people. MR McCASKILL That is correct. MR HATTINGH Was Mr Meyer ever present at any of these meetings? MR McCASKILL One or two, a few of them. MR HATTINGH I beg your pardon? MR McCASKILL A few of them, not all of them. MR HATTINGH And do you know whether such meetings were held in any other places in Lesotho? MR McCASKILL No. MR HATTINGH You don't know anything about that? MR McCASKILL No. MR HATTINGH Are you saying that you don't know, or that there weren't? I'm not certain if I understood your answer. MR McCASKILL I don't know if there were meetings held at other places. MR HATTINGH But there was no reason why they couldn't hold all their meetings at your house? MR McCASKILL I beg your pardon? MR HATTINGH There were not any reasons why they couldn't have their meetings at your house? MR McCASKILL That's correct. MR HATTINGH How did you know who attended the meetings? MR McCASKILL I beg your pardon? MR HATTINGH How did you know who attended the meetings? MR McCASKILL As they arrived for the meetings I could see it was Leon and this one and that one. R HATTINGH But where would you be when the people arrived for the meetings? MR McCASKILL This would be if I was at home. MR HATTINGH Okay. You're at home. Would you be in the lounge, at the gate, where would you be positioned so that you could see who was going to be attending the meeting? MR McCASKILL If the meeting began, I would be in the house perhaps, or go and meet some of them, or be introduced to some of those that I didn't know. MR HATTINGH So you state that before the meetings began, you went in and chatted to those that you knew and they introduced you to those that you didn't know. MR McCASKILL Or perhaps they would encounter me in the house. MR HATTINGH Or they would encounter you in the house. Very well. In other words they did not try to prevent you from seeing who was arriving for these meetings. On the contrary you were introduced to those that you didn't know. Were you asked to leave the meetings subsequently? MR McCASKILL If I saw that they were ready to begin, I would leave of my own accord. MR HATTINGH Didn't they ask you to leave? MR McCASKILL No, I already knew when they would be having their meeting because they asked me if they could use the lounge at a certain time for their meeting. MR HATTINGH Yes, but did they ever tell you or ask you to leave the room when they were beginning with their meetings? MR McCASKILL Not in such a direct way. MR HATTINGH Then why did you leave the meeting. MR McCASKILL Because that is how I understood it. They asked if they could use the room for a meeting. MR HATTINGH Yes, but they allowed you to enter the room to chat to them before the commencement of the meeting, they introduced you to everybody else there, why did you think that they wanted you to leave the room? MR McCASKILL That's just what I thought. MR HATTINGH So they didn't ask you pertinently to leave the room? MR McCASKILL No. MR HATTINGH The people who attended the meetings, were some of them Lesotho citizens? MR McCASKILL Not that I knew. MR HATTINGH Do you or don't you know? CHAIRPERSON Mr McCaskill, I just want to ask you because I'll forget the question otherwise, you stated just now that you could not sit in on the meetings, despite the request for you to obtain information. Do you recall that you said this? MR McCASKILL Yes. CHAIRPERSON I don't know if you expressed it as such, but I definitely had the impression that the reason why you did not sit in on those meetings, was because you were asked to leave. Isn't that so? MR McCASKILL No, that is not so. CHAIRPERSON Then why didn't you try, as the police asked you, to remain in those meetings so that you could obtain information? MR McCASKILL It didn't occur to me to do that. CHAIRPERSON But it was mentioned to you that they would give you something to plant in the house. MR McCASKILL The Security Police told me to be very careful in the event of the others discovering that I was providing information. CHAIRPERSON Yes, Mr McCaskill. MR HATTINGH Let me just return to the question of the Lesotho citizens. So it was not only the persons from South Africa who lived in Lesotho who were ANC members, were there also Lesotho people, or Lesotho citizens who were ANC members? MR McCASKILL No that I know of. MR HATTINGH Were there people who were sympathetic towards the ANC? MR McCASKILL I didn't know some of them. MR HATTINGH I'm going to jump ahead a little bit. The night of the party at your house, did you at some stage go and tell Mr de Kock that you family had left now? MR McCASKILL No, it had already been arranged that my girlfriend would take my family out. MR HATTINGH And who would remain? MR McCASKILL It was Leon Meyer and the other members who came there. MR HATTINGH Members of the ANC? MR McCASKILL Yes. MR HATTINGH And did you hear afterwards who had all been shot? MR McCASKILL Yes. MR HATTINGH And were those the people you had left behind? MR McCASKILL Some of them were. MR HATTINGH Were they not all there? MR McCASKILL No they were not all there. MR HATTINGH I'm not following you now. You heard who the people were who were shot in the house? MR McCASKILL Yes. MR HATTINGH Now I'm asking you, are those the people who were then when you left to go and report to Mr de Kock? MR McCASKILL Some of the people who were killed were the people I left there. MR HATTINGH So you are saying that other people came there after you left? MR McCASKILL That's correct. MR HATTINGH That were not there when you left? MR McCASKILL That's correct. MR HATTINGH How do you know that? MR McCASKILL Because I knew the people I left there. MR HATTINGH Yes, and the people who were killed who were not there when you were there, did you know them? MR McCASKILL The people who were killed? MR HATTINGH Yes, you say that there were people killed in the house that were not there when you were there. Did you know them? MR McCASKILL Yes. MR HATTINGH Did some of them attend the meetings? MR McCASKILL Yes. MR HATTINGH So they were at least supporters of the ANC? MR McCASKILL: The Lesotho citizens who were killed there, I did not know them. MR HATTINGH But I asked you whether you knew the people who were killed there. And the Lesotho people who were killed there, you say you did not know them? MR McCASKILL No, they were not there. MR HATTINGH No, listen to the question. Did you know them? MR McCASKILL No. MR HATTINGH Not at all? MR McCASKILL No. MR HATTINGH So these were just strange people that you did not know who just came to your party? MR McCASKILL Yes. MR HATTINGH Very well. I'll get back to this matter. Let us return back. You now met Mr Willie Coetzee, you gave him information. I want to put it to you that you probably gave information longer than the period of six months that you have testified about and I want to put it to you that you received money for this information. MR McCASKILL Not that I can recall. MR HATTINGH Is it possible that you received the money, but that you have forgotten about it? MR McCASKILL I wouldn't not know. MR HATTINGH But why would you not know, Mr McCaskill? MR McCASKILL What do you mean? MR HATTINGH The Security Police at Ladybrand paid you for the information that you supplied to them. MR McCASKILL No I was not paid yet. MR HATTINGH You were not yet paid, but did they promise you? MR McCASKILL Maybe they would tell me that I should come to Ladybrand and they would pay me for the petrol. They would pay the petrol that I would use. I would say they paid me for that. MR HATTINGH Did they give you money for petrol? MR McCASKILL Yes. MR HATTINGH Only for petrol? MR McCASKILL Yes. MR HATTINGH So in return they worked out how far you drove and then they just gave you money for petrol? MR McCASKILL No, but it was not very far. If I could drive to Ladybrand, it's about 15 kilometres, they would give me R20 for petrol at that time, yes. MR HATTINGH And no other remuneration? MR McCASKILL No. MR HATTINGH So why do you betray your friends, people who live in your house, people who meet in your house, people who ask you to join them, why did you go and betray them? MR McCASKILL As I have said, I was threatened. MR HATTINGH But that is what you did not say. You were pressurised and eventually you said that you must have regarded this reference to your family as a threat, but before that you conceded that you were not threatened. MR McCASKILL I may have been frightened when they told me about this and that is why I played along. MR HATTINGH And you are saying that is the only reason why you did this? MR McCASKILL That is correct, yes. MR HATTINGH So now you met Mr de Kock. How did that come about? How did it happen that you met Mr de Kock? MR McCASKILL Through Mr Coetzee, Mr Willie Coetzee. MR HATTINGH Yes, but where and when did this happen and how did it happen? MR McCASKILL I cannot recall the place, but Willie Coetzee arranged for me to meet Mr de Kock. MR HATTINGH Did Mr Coetzee introduce you to Mr de Kock? MR McCASKILL That's correct. MR HATTINGH You cannot recall where? MR McCASKILL No. MR HATTINGH Not at all? MR McCASKILL It was always where the group was. It could have been at the Riverside Lodge or at the border post. MR HATTINGH And how was Mr de Kock introduced to you, as whom? MR McCASKILL I cannot recall, but it was not his proper name. MR HATTINGH Not his proper name? MR McCASKILL Yes. MR HATTINGH But was it told to you that he was a member of the Security Police? MR McCASKILL I cannot recall. MR HATTINGH Can I get back to your statement in Bundle 2 where you had said "On a particular day in late 1985 I was crossing the border post. I was approached by Willem Coetzee. I later learned he was a Security Branch Police at Ladybrand. He asked me to follow him. He took me to a certain place outside Ladybrand. It was an open space in the veld. At that spot we then met Eugene de Kock" Is that entirely wrong then? MR McCASKILL No, that could be right, but I cannot recall whether that was the place. MR HATTINGH You are saying now that it could be right, but you cannot recall. JUDGE KHAMPEPE Haven't you conceded not too long ago Mr McCaskill that you remember that this was the correct place and that it was next to the military base which was known as Group 36? MR McCASKILL I said that the facts that I am not sure about I left out because I'm not sure about it, so I was not sure whether this was the place where I met him the first time. JUDGE KHAMPEPE But were you not meeting Mr Coetzee next to this military base all the time when you were supposed to supply him with information? MR McCASKILL Yes, but sometimes if I go through to Bloemfontein, then he would have a quick talk with me next to the border post on the road which leads to the Lodge, or something like that. It was not specifically there at that place, at our rendezvous point. JUDGE KHAMPEPE But when you had to meet him in Ladybrand, didn't you meet all the time next to the military base? MR McCASKILL That's correct, yes. JUDGE KHAMPEPE So why should it be so difficult for you to remember whether this meeting took place at that same spot or not because this is where you frequently met? MR McCASKILL I cannot say it is not correct, but I cannot recall. It could have been at another place. MR HATTINGH Who else was present when you were introduced to Mr de Kock? MR McCASKILL It was Adamson and Joe Coetser. MR HATTINGH Adamson and Joe Coetser. Did you know them? MR McCASKILL That was the first time that I met them. MR HATTINGH It was the first time that you met Adamson and Coetser? MR McCASKILL That's correct. MR HATTINGH By what names were they introduced to you? MR McCASKILL I think Adamson was introduced by his proper name. MR HATTINGH Adamson his proper name. And Coetser? MR McCASKILL And Coetser and Mr de Kock gave false names. MR HATTINGH Very well. May I just for a moment jump ahead? After this operation was completed, you were taken to Vlakplaas, is that correct? MR McCASKILL That is correct. MR HATTINGH And you stayed there for a long time? MR McCASKILL Yes, a few months. MR HATTINGH A few months. And did you work for the Vlakplaas unit? MR McCASKILL Yes. MR HATTINGH And you received R400 a month for it? MR McCASKILL That's correct. MR HATTINGH And what work did you have to perform? MR McCASKILL We just drove around with the other people. MR HATTINGH I beg your pardon? You must talk a little bit louder. MR McCASKILL We drove around and if they went looking for people then I just drove with them. MR HATTINGH So would you be able to know some of them? Would it just be the few that you met or that you knew in Lesotho? MR McCASKILL That's correct. MR HATTINGH So that is when you got to know Vlakplaas members, is that not so Mr McCaskill? MR McCASKILL That's correct. MR HATTINGH That is when you got to know Blackie Swart? MR McCASKILL I cannot say where I got the name of Blackie Swart. MR HATTINGH No, but I am asking, when you arrived at Vlakplaas and you lived there and you worked there, is that when you got to know Blackie Swart? MR McCASKILL No. MR HATTINGH So you never got to know him? CHAIRPERSON Somewhere int he Security Branches where we walked around I heard Blackie Swart's name, but I do not know whether it was at Vlakplaas, if I can put it that way. MR HATTINGH So how did it come about that you involved him as a person who was involved in this operation as a person with whom you dealt? MR McCASKILL I may have probably just - maybe because the other people I did not see that evening, only after the attack I met some of them and I thought that Blackie Swart was also there. MR HATTINGH but if you now told the Committee that Marthinus Ras or Wouter Mentz or Willie Nortje or lets mention names who were not there, Paul van Dyk, those people were there, then I could understand because you got to know those people at Vlakplaas. MR McCASKILL Yes. MR HATTINGH But now you are saying that you never even got to know Swart at Vlakplaas. MR McCASKILL No, not at Vlakplaas. I think I was working in Bloemfontein, but not at Vlakplaas. MR HATTINGH And on that basis you are saying that he was involved in this operation? MR McCASKILL Yes, I may have confused him with somebody else. MR HATTINGH Our information is and I think someone could assist us here, Mr Kock's recollection is that Blackie Swart only came to Vlakplaas in 1989. MR McCASKILL I would not know when he came to Vlakplaas. MR HATTINGH So why do you mention him as a person who was involved in the operation? MR McCASKILL As I have said, I only got to know these people, I may have mistaken him with somebody else who was there, like I did with Ras, the same could have happened with him. MR HATTINGH Later you got to know people and when you made this statement, you just mentioned names of people from Vlakplaas, is that not so? MR McCASKILL No, I did not just mention names. I mentioned names of people whom I thought were involved in the operation. MR HATTINGH Very well, Mr McCaskill. You met Mr de Kock and he asks you - what did he ask you? MR McCASKILL He asked a few questions tome. MR HATTINGH He asked you questions about yourself, what type of questions? MR McCASKILL Where was I born? What was I doing there? Things like that. MR HATTINGH And did he ask you why you were giving information about the ANC? MR McCASKILL No. MR HATTINGH Did he ask you what information you had available? MR McCASKILL He already knew. MR HATTINGH How did you know that? MR McCASKILL Because Mr Coetzee must have said so. MR HATTINGH So you just accepted that he already knew? MR McCASKILL Yes. MR HATTINGH So he asked you to do something, what did he want you to do? MR McCASKILL I had to give him something, or information, so that they could trust me because they did not trust me at that stage. MR HATTINGH Did Mr Coetzee at that stage have any reason to distrust you? MR McCASKILL Yes, because I started lying. MR HATTINGH But in the beginning you were lying, but later you gave them correct information. MR McCASKILL That's correct, but he still did not fully trust me. MR HATTINGH So then Mr de Kock asked you to bring something to prove that they can trust you? MR McCASKILL That is correct, yes. MR HATTINGH So how did he know that you would be able to bring something that would prove? MR McCASKILL He did not say that I must bring something, even if it was important information, something to cause them to trust me. He did not say specifically that I must bring something. MR HATTINGH But if it was information, why could you not have given him the information right there and then? MR McCASKILL As I have said I told him I can bring the hand grenades and the bayonet so he can see I can speak the truth. MR HATTINGH So you went and fetched these items? MR McCASKILL That's correct. MR HATTINGH Are you certain that it was Mr de Kock who asked you to bring these things? MR McCASKILL I'm not sure. CHAIRPERSON Why is it so important for you to have them trust you? Why didn't you tell them: "If you don't trust me then that's it"? MR McCASKILL They were looking for it like that, it was not important for me. CHAIRPERSON No listen. You told us that you felt threatened and that is why you collaborated. Now there is a stage when the people say: "Listen here, do something for us so that we can see that we can trust you." MR McCASKILL That's correct. CHAIRPERSON So why did you not walk away and say: "Well you don't trust me, end of the story"? Why didn't you do that? MR McCASKILL I didn't want to do it because I saw that if I did not co-operate that I would be in danger. CHAIRPERSON No, it's not a matter of not playing along. It's not your fault that they did not trust you. Was that not a good reason to walk away? MR McCASKILL The whole reason why I wanted them to trust me was that because initially I did lie. CHAIRPERSON So you wanted them to trust you? MR McCASKILL Yes, that's correct. CHAIRPERSON And that was a decision that you made willingly? MR McCASKILL That's correct. CHAIRPERSON So at least from that stage, you were with them? MR McCASKILL That's correct. CHAIRPERSON You wanted to be with them? MR McCASKILL Yes, at that stage I wanted to be with them. MR HATTINGH Thank you Chairperson. Because you wanted to keep receiving these payments? MR McCASKILL No. MR HATTINGH So why did you want to be with them? Did you want to be with the Security Police and in the process betray your friends? MR McCASKILL Because it was clear what would happen to me, I knew already. CHAIRPERSON You have just now conceded that you wanted an you willingly took that decision. MR McCASKILL because I knew what would happen. CHAIRPERSON No, that is not what you said, then it was not voluntarily. You were still under the threat, if it was not willing. That is why I repeatedly asked you, you decided yourself, you willingly decided and you wanted to be with them because at least then and you said yes. Is that not so? MR McCASKILL That is so. MR HATTINGH Thank you Chairperson. Are you sure it was Mr de Kock who asked you to bring something to prove that they can trust you? MR McCASKILL Yes. MR HATTINGH And to whom did you give the arms and ammunition when you brought it back? MR McCASKILL I cannot recall. MR HATTINGH Why can you not recall? MR McCASKILL I don't know, it could have been Joe or Adamson, or someone. MR HATTINGH But why not Mr de Kock? He asked you. MR McCASKILL I cannot recall who it was. MR HATTINGH Could it have been de Kock? MR McCASKILL Yes, it could have been him, but I cannot recall. MR HATTINGH In your original statement which appears in bundle 2, paragraph 5, I know it has been corrected later, but in your initial statement you said "I gave these hand grenades to Eugene de Kock and his team" That's in paragraph 5. That is what you said in your original statement. MR McCASKILL That is why I corrected it, as I remembered it. MR HATTINGH Yes, but when you made this statement, you did not correct it. Why did you say then that you gave it to de Kock and his team? MR McCASKILL Because I did not recall correctly. MR HATTINGH So who could you have given it to possibly? MR McCASKILL It could have been de Kock, Adamson and Joe or Willie, one of the four of them. MR HATTINGH So when it was corrected your advocate said to Mr de Kock on page 2154 of the record "You have already testified that the hand grenades were not handed over to you personally. Mr McCaskill is of the opinion that he cannot recall whether the hand grenades were handed to you or to Mr Coetzee, who was his handler at that stage." So is this still your evidence? You cannot recall whether you gave it to de Kock or Coetzee? MR McCASKILL No Joe or Adamson, or even Joe Coetser. MR HATTINGH Yes. So and now you are saying they gave it back to you? MR McCASKILL That's correct. MR HATTINGH After they went away for a while, if I understand correctly? MR McCASKILL Yes. MR HATTINGH Where did they go to Mr McCaskill? MR McCASKILL I cannot say. MR HATTINGH Where did this meeting take place? Did this meeting take place when you handed over these things? MR McCASKILL At Group 36. MR HATTINGH You must please speak up because I cannot hear. At Group 36, there in the field where you would usually meet? MR McCASKILL That's correct, yes. MR HATTINGH Did they walk away from you with these things? MR McCASKILL It was only the one who walked away, but not all of them. There was somebody there with me, but I cannot recall who it was, but one of those persons left and the other one stayed there. MR HATTINGH So the one walked away with these things and the other one stayed with you? MR McCASKILL That's correct. MR HATTINGH So the one who walked away with these things, is the one who received it? MR McCASKILL That is correct. MR HATTINGH So it could have been either Mr de Kock or Mr Coetzee or Mr Coetser? MR McCASKILL That's correct, yes. MR HATTINGH So he walked away with these things. Where did he walk to? MR McCASKILL I don't know. MR HATTINGH But you were in the field, you could see where he walked to. MR McCASKILL He walked in the direction of town. No he drove. MR HATTINGH So he climbed into a vehicle and he drove away and he came back? MR McCASKILL After half an hour. MR HATTINGH After half an hour? So what did you do while he was gone, you and the person who remained with you? MR McCASKILL I cannot recall whether there were more photo albums, I cannot recall what we were busy with. MR HATTINGH And then did this person return? Is that correct? MR McCASKILL That's correct. MR HATTINGH With the hand grenades? MR McCASKILL That's correct. MR HATTINGH And what did he tell you then? MR McCASKILL I had to take it back. MR HATTINGH You had to take it back and place it where you found it? MR McCASKILL That's correct. MR HATTINGH Which you then did? MR McCASKILL That is correct. MR HATTINGH And when was the next meeting? MR McCASKILL The day when they gave me the detonators. MR HATTINGH Where did this meeting take place? MR McCASKILL I cannot recall. MR HATTINGH Who gave you the detonators? MR McCASKILL I think it was Mr Coetzee. MR HATTINGH Was Mr de Kock present? MR McCASKILL No, he was not present. I cannot recall exactly, but I think it was Mr Coetzee who gave me the detonators. MR HATTINGH In paragraph 6 of your statement, in your original statement, you say "Eugene de Kock left me with some of his men and after 30 minutes he came back." Do you see that? MR McCASKILL Yes. MR HATTINGH Why did you say that? MR McCASKILL That is why I amended it, it wasn't correct, I couldn't recall precisely who it was. MR HATTINGH But yesterday during your evidence-in-chief when your advocate took you paragraph for paragraph through your affidavit, according to my notes, when you arrived at paragraph 6 you simply stated that the paragraph was correct and that there were no amendments. MR McCASKILL That is correct. MR HATTINGH Then why didn't you state at that point that you couldn't recall whether it was de Kock who left with the grenades and then returned with them later on? MR McCASKILL I really don't know. I didn't know. CHAIRPERSON Mr McCaskill, I'm going to ask you a few personal questions. I'm just trying to understand your position exactly. Are you suffering from any kind of condition which affects your memory? MR McCASKILL No, but this whole thing has caught up with me somewhat in recent times. CHAIRPERSON Well that's the case for most of us. Some more than others. Some of us aren't getting paid for it, but with the exception of that, at that stage did you use alcohol? MR McCASKILL Alcohol? CHAIRPERSON Yes, such as Whisky or Brandy or something like that. MR McCASKILL Yes. CHAIRPERSON And when you spoke to Mr de Kock and the others, were you inebriated? MR McCASKILL They drank a lot. CHAIRPERSON No, I'm referring to you, not to them. MR McCASKILL Yes, it may have been over a few beers. CHAIRPERSON But with regard to the times that you spoke to them. MR McCASKILL Yes. CHAIRPERSON And did you make use of any drugs? MR McCASKILL No. CHAIRPERSON Not at all? MR McCASKILL No. CHAIRPERSON So you were not so inebriated when you spoke to them or when you dealt with them? MR McCASKILL Not that I can recall. CHAIRPERSON Then why is it that you have forgotten everything that is relevant? MR McCASKILL To tell you the truth Chairperson, I don't know how it happened, but when I read through my statement yesterday again, I saw that there were many mistakes. CHAIRPERSON Yes, but today upon numerous occasions you have told Mr Hattingh and me that you cannot recall. Then why is it that you cannot recall such important aspects? MR McCASKILL What I cannot remember I cannot remember. CHAIRPERSON Yes, Mr Hattingh. MR HATTINGH Now when they returned the hand grenades to you, was any time or place fixed for the next meeting? MR McCASKILL It could be. MR HATTINGH You cannot recall? MR McCASKILL It can be. MR HATTINGH You're saying it can be, but you're not certain. Because in your original statement in paragraph 6, you say "They called me the following day" Is that correct? MR McCASKILL I have amended it, I have stated that it could be the same day or a few days later but I'm not certain. MR HATTINGH Yes, but the question is whether it is correct that they put a call through to you, that they actually called you. MR McCASKILL I am not certain whether they called me in or whether they made an appointment or whether they called me on the phone. MR HATTINGH And then you state, "on the next meeting" Exhibit L paragraph 6, "I was given two detonators and told to remove the originals and replace them, or the ones given to me" MR McCASKILL That is correct. MR HATTINGH Did you ever have any training in the use of hand grenades? MR McCASKILL Yes. MR HATTINGH Who trained you? MR McCASKILL These things were in the house and Dick went away and he showed me. MR HATTINGH So Dick instructed you in the use of hand grenades? MR McCASKILL Yes. MR HATTINGH Why? MR McCASKILL It must have been interesting. MR HATTINGH I beg your pardon? MR McCASKILL I must have asked him to show me. MR HATTINGH Then what did he show you? What about the hand grenades did he show you? Did he show you how to pull the pin and throw it? MR McCASKILL Yes. MR HATTINGH Is that all? MR McCASKILL And how to remove it. MR HATTINGH How to remove what? MR McCASKILL The detonator. MR HATTINGH Then why did he show you this? MR McCASKILL He showed me how to operate a hand grenade, also how to pull out the detonator, yes. MR HATTINGH I should think that if someone doesn't know anything about a hand grenade and one wanted to know something about a hand grenade, all one really needed to know was how to pull the pin out and how long to wait before the explosion? MR McCASKILL Yes, but he might also have showed me more about the detonator and the pin. MR HATTINGH And did you tell Mr Coetzee and Mr de Kock and the others that you have received such basic training? That Dick had taught you how to remove and replace the detonator of a hand grenade? MR McCASKILL Yes. MR HATTINGH When did you tell them this? MR McCASKILL During this times that we rendezvoused. MR HATTINGH Why did you tell them this? Why was it important? MR McCASKILL Because on a certain occasion they thought that I was a trained ANC/MK member. MR HATTINGH They thought that you were a trained MK soldier? MR McCASKILL Yes. MR HATTINGH And what did you tell them? MR McCASKILL I told them that I wasn't. MR HATTINGH Then why did you tell them about the training that you had received with the hand grenades. MR McCASKILL I beg your pardon. MR HATTINGH Why did you tell them about the training that Dick gave you with the hand grenades? MR McCASKILL I told them that I could work a little bit with hand grenades. MR HATTINGH And when they gave you the hand grenades, were these hand grenades the same as those that you had taken from Dick to show them? MR McCASKILL The detonators? MR HATTINGH No the hand grenades, were they the same type as those that you had taken from Dick to show de Kock and the others. MR McCASKILL Those that they brought back? MR HATTINGH Yes. MR McCASKILL I would say that they were the same. MR HATTINGH Are you not certain? MR McCASKILL They looked the same. MR HATTINGH And upon the next meeting, they gave you two detonators, only the detonators? MR McCASKILL Yes, that is correct. MR HATTINGH And they said that you had to replace the detonators on Dick's hand grenades with these new hand grenades? Who told you to do this? MR McCASKILL I cannot recall precisely but i spoke only to those four persons, so it could be any one of them. MR HATTINGH Whoever said this to you, did he know that you would know how to operate the detonators? MR McCASKILL Yes. MR HATTINGH So they didn't show you again? MR McCASKILL No, they knew that I would know how. MR HATTINGH And you don't know whether Mr de Kock was present upon this occasion? MR McCASKILL No. MR HATTINGH How long before the attack on the house did this incident take place? MR McCASKILL I cannot recall. MR HATTINGH Not even nearly enough? MR McCASKILL No, I cannot. MR HATTINGH You stated that you didn't do it. You said that you didn't replace the detonators. Why not? MR McCASKILL I don't know why not, but the hand grenades were in Dick's room. My sister was there. I was a little afraid. Perhaps my sister would accidentally be involved. The one detonator was the type that, as soon as you pulled the pin, the grenade would explode. MR HATTINGH Is that what they told you? MR McCASKILL Yes. MR HATTINGH And you were afraid that your sister could be injured? MR McCASKILL That is correct. MR HATTINGH Did you report back to them? Did you report to Mr de Kock or Mr Coetzee? Did they ask you whether or not you replaced the detonators? MR McCASKILL Yes. MR HATTINGH And what did you tell them? MR McCASKILL I said yes. MR HATTINGH You said yes. CHAIRPERSON Didn't they ask for the detonators that you had removed? MR McCASKILL No, they didn't. MR HATTINGH Not at all? MR McCASKILL No. MR HATTINGH Regarding the firearm which was given to you, who gave it to you? MR McCASKILL Adamson. MR HATTINGH Who? MR McCASKILL Adamson. MR HATTINGH Was Mr de Kock present? MR McCASKILL No, it was in Maseru. I can recall that it was Adamson himself. MR HATTINGH What did he want you to do with it? MR McCASKILL He wanted me to give it to Mr Meyer. MR HATTINGH You had to give it to Leon Meyer? MR McCASKILL Yes. MR HATTINGH What was he supposed to do with it? MR McCASKILL I should tell him that I picked it up along the border fence and that there were many others like that. MR HATTINGH And then? MR McCASKILL Then I was supposed to take him there. MR HATTINGH And what would happen then? MR McCASKILL Then we would have shot him dead. MR HATTINGH Do you think so, or do you know so? MR McCASKILL I think it was stated as such. MR HATTINGH That they were going to shoot him dead? MR McCASKILL Yes. MR HATTINGH So all you had to do was lure Leon Meyer to a fictitious arms cache, so that they could shoot him dead? MR McCASKILL That's correct. MR HATTINGH Didn't they ask you earlier on to assist in killing Leon and his wife? MR McCASKILL Yes. MR HATTINGH When did they ask you this? MR McCASKILL I beg your pardon? MR HATTINGH When did they ask you this? No perhaps I didn't hear your answer, because you're speaking quite softly. I'll pose it again. Didn't they ask you to assist in the killing of Leon and his wife? MR McCASKILL That is correct. MR HATTINGH And when did this take place? MR McCASKILL Before they asked me to take Leon to the river for the firearms. MR HATTINGH That is before you were asked to give the firearm to him? MR McCASKILL That is correct. MR HATTINGH And while they wanted to kill both Leon and his wife, they asked you to lure only Leon to this place where they could shoot him dead, does that make sense? MR McCASKILL I think that they did speculate on how it would be possible to get both Leon and Jackie there, but later we abandoned that plan, because we saw it wasn't possible to get Jackie there as well. CHAIRPERSON Well on that point, I would have asked you later, but I'm simply going to ask you now. Your initial statement indicated that you were informed that the Security Police wished to kill Leon Meyer. Later you changed it and you said that they wanted to kill both Leon Meyer and his wife. MR McCASKILL Yes, I said so. CHAIRPERSON However, you also told me that the changes that you brought to your statement as a result of recollections that you had upon hearing the evidence of the other applicants. MR McCASKILL That is correct. CHAIRPERSON Now I am not really certain whether any of them said that Mr Leon Meyer's wife was on the list of targets. Now if I am correct, I have not read the record, but if I am correct, how did you cultivate recollections about that? MR McCASKILL Because I remembered. CHAIRPERSON That's why I asked you. The evidence of the applicants, would that be the only factor in assisting you to recall the real truth, because none of them, if I recall correctly, mentioned that they ever wanted to kill Leon Meyer's wife, or ever requested that she be killed. Then how did you remember this? MR McCASKILL I think there was a point where it was said. MR HATTINGH When? Who said it? You see it was never put to anyone that these are the facts. MR McCASKILL I cannot recall anymore. CHAIRPERSON You see, it is quite insightful - you wanted to say something Mr Berger? MR BERGER What you put to Mr McCaskill is not absolutely correct, with respect, because I asked Mr de Kock at one stage, in his evidence, whether he had given an instruction to Mr Coetser to kill Jackie Quinn and his answer was yes, he did. That's in the midst of a whole lot of other evidence that he gave, but that was his one answer and then you'll recall, there was a whole lot of cross-examination about why would he have given that instruction when Jackie Quinn was not a target. CHAIRPERSON I don't intend to argue the matter. MR HATTINGH If I may come in here Mr Chairman, that must be put into the proper perspective. I'm not sure that Mr de Kock said it exactly in the way Mr Berger has now told you. I'm prepared to accept it, I'm not sure, but Mr de Kock made it clear that the idea to kill her only arose when they became separated from the group of people in the house. Originally there was no instruction for Ms Quinn to be shot and killed. CHAIRPERSON Are you happy with that Mr Berger, the context? Otherwise I'll leave the matter for you people to argue. MR BERGER Chairperson, we can leave it for argument. The point was when Coetser, Adamson and McCaskill were sent off to Leon Meyer and Jackie Quinn's house, one of the answers that de Kock gave to a question which I asked "Did you give Coetser an instruction to kill Jackie Quinn?" He said: "Yes, I did." CHAIRPERSON Then there's no dispute between what you and Mr Hattingh says. MR BERGER On the context of that answer, that is correct, yes. CHAIRPERSON Yes. We agree that at the time referred to by Mr McCaskill in both his statements, that would not have happened in your context? MR BERGER No, but Chairperson, you said to Mr McCaskill that it was never mentioned by any of the applicants and it was not put to any of the applicants that there was an instruction to kill at any time, to kill Jackie Quinn and I'm suggesting that that's not correct. CHAIRPERSON It was never put to any of the applicants that when it was mentioned to you that the Security Police wished to kill Leon Meyer, that they also included his wife? Do you understand what I have said? MR McCASKILL Yes. CHAIRPERSON When it was planned to kill Leon Meyer, none of the applicants testified and it was never put to them that when the planning took place, it was ever mentioned that his wife was also a target. You have also omitted her name from your affidavit, but at the very last stage, you have included it. How is that possible, because there was no evidence that could have assisted you in recalling that during the planning phase of this entire operation, her name was ever mentioned. You are the only person who has mentioned that her name was included on the target list throughout the entire planning stage. MR McCASKILL I recalled it but I do not know by what process. MR BERGER Chairperson perhaps I've got it wrong, but it is in Mr McCaskill's original statement, that he was asked, it's in paragraph 8 "They said that if I could assist them to kill Leon and his wife... I thought Mr Joubert would have pointed that out. CHAIRPERSON I'm sorry, I missed that. MR HATTINGH Thank you Chairperson. And then in your new statement which is Exhibit L, you reiterate in paragraph 8, you say "In the next meeting we had a braai. De Kock, Adamson and other Security Police were present and de Kock said if I assist them to kill Leon and his wife they would give me R5 000 for each and any other terrorist. I told them I'm prepared to help him in another way, but not to kill." So there you also state that they asked you specifically to assist in the killing of Leon and his wife. MR McCASKILL That is correct. MR HATTINGH And then you confirm the correctness of paragraphs 9 and 10 of your original statement, where you refer to the firearms that were handed over and this is subsequent to this request for you to assist in the killing of Leon and his wife. MR McCASKILL That is correct. MR HATTINGH And now they are trying to get Leon to a place where they could shoot him dead, alone. I put it to you that this version of yours is not true. Mr de Kock and the others were not interested in killing only Leon Meyer, they had to wipe out an entire group of people. MR McCASKILL That is true. de Kock and the others were interested in anything that they could get. CHAIRPERSON We should just put this in context because Mr Berger states that at a certain stage Mr de Kock conceded that he gave an instruction for him to be killed. MR VISSER Could I help? Could I perhaps be of assistance Chairperson? It's page 2319, the evidence is cross-examination by Mr Berger continued. "Mr de Kock, would it be fair to say that your instructions to Adamson and Coetser were that they were to go to Leon Meyer's house and kill both Leon Meyer and his wife Jackie Quinn? MR DE KOCK: Yes." I think that's what he was referring to. Page 2319, but then I must tell you Chairperson that it starts at about page 2300 and it goes for many, many pages where throughout, and I've checked the record, this is the only passage in which reference is made or a ...(indistinct) is made regarding Ms Quinn, for the rest your statement was absolutely correct that nobody ever said that she was a target. That's what the record shows. CHAIRPERSON You people can argue it at the end of the day. The fact of the matter is that there was a positive response to what - Mr Berger's proposition. MR BERGER Chairperson, Judge Leverton used to say that evidence given once is good enough, it doesn't have to be repeated many times. CHAIRPERSON Well it would be helpful if people could remember. MR HATTINGH May I proceed, Mr Chairman? CHAIRPERSON You can stop at a convenient time. MR HATTINGH Just clear up this one point which you raised with me Mr Chairman. The point that I put to the witness was not - there was no instruction to kill Ms Quinn. I put to him that his version that they only wanted to kill Mr Meyer is incorrect, because Mr de Kock had instructions to kill a group of people. CHAIRPERSON I didn't want, at the end of the day, people to take it out of context and I accept what you say. Are you - is it a convenient time to adjourn, or are you finished? You're not finished yet? There's no harm in being hopeful. COMMITTEE ADJOURNS ON RESUMPTION ELVIS VINCENT McCASKILL (s.u.o.) MR BERGER Chairperson, I'm sorry to interrupt the proceedings but I've asked my colleague Mr Hattingh if we could possibly break his cross-examination of Mr McCaskill at this point and interpose Ms Jane Quinn as a witness to give evidence on behalf of the victims. The reason being that Ms Quinn is on a flight to Durban this evening and won't be able to give evidence tomorrow and Mr Hattingh has graciously agreed that his cross-examination be broken, so if it pleases the Committee, we would ask that Ms Quinn be sworn in to give evidence. CHAIRPERSON Perhaps there'll be something that pleases us today. Are there any objections to that arrangement? Yes, Mr Berger, then we can proceed with her. CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR HATTINGH STANDS OVER MR BERGER Chairperson, Ms Quinn needs to be sworn in. Her full names are Jane Wilhelmina Quinn. CHAIRPERSON Ms or Mrs? MR BERGER Ms, M-S. JANE WILHELMINA QUINN (sworn states) EXAMINATION BY MR BERGER Ms Quinn, is it correct that Jackie Quinn was your sister? MS QUINN Yes. MR BERGER And you have prepared a statement, you've written out a statement which you wish to read into the record and you've also informed me, is it not so, that you are prepared to be cross-examined on the evidence that is contained in your statement? Alright. Will you proceed to read your statement into the record? MS QUINN I participated in this TRC process because I want South Africans to know and remember that my sister was murdered by order of the previous South African Government. I want South Africans to know that her murderers, those that actually shot her and those that gave the orders and those that set the whole operation in motion, chose to kill Jackie and they're still carrying on with their lives as South African citizens while she and her husband are dead and her daughter lives all but one year of her life without them. All this we know. I came to these hearings to reconcile myself to the truth about the manner of her death, but I need the whole truth in order to be reconciled with it. Before I go any further, I do want to acknowledge the efforts of the Truth Commission towards exposing the truth. We as family of victims have at least been able to draw in people with political culpability, even though they were not applicants and there has been support in terms of accessing some documentation as well as some pertinent inquiry from the Panel, but I haven't got the whole truth and I want that to be recognised. Jackie's killers applied for amnesty, or didn't as in Coetser's case, because they were involved in covert operations that resulted in other peoples deaths. This step presumes guilt as killers, the cover nature also implies the hiding and/or obscuring of the truth and yet this process has seemed to put the onus on us, the families of the victims, to prove that the amnesty applicants are not telling the truth. It seems that we are supposed to accept the shaky memories, conveniently coincided dates from already less than honourable human beings. I don't accept that Jackie was killed by mistake and she wasn't a so-called target, in terms of their definition of setting out to kill those who were carrying out operations in South Africa. I think Jackie was killed because apartheid operatives hated a white woman who married a brown man, who was ANC. That's personal motivation. It is based on emotion, not on political motivation. The argument that she had to be shot because she grabbed the silencer, doesn't was with me. Two armed men, trained in combat, enter a house in the middle of the night in which there are two adults and a one year old baby. How is it that one of the trained combatants couldn't manage an unarmed woman? He could have hit her over the head and knocked her unconscious if he wanted her out of the way, while they carried out their murderous pursuit of Leon, their so-called target. A glaring untruth though is this lie about the nanny who they claim to so kindly have left alive to look after the baby they were busy orphaning. There was no nanny in the house at the time of the killing of Jackie and Leon. How can I be so sure of this when I wasn't there? Firstly, remember that Jackie was my sister. There were views which she and I held strongly in common, some of which were our attitudes to our employees and also to our ways of raising our children. My second daughter is just three months younger than Phoenix and when Jackie visited me when Phoenix was six months old and May three months old, we spent a lot of time talking about the mechanics of our lives with babies and how we managed our work, social lives and children. Jackie discussed with me the process of her day, how she got up at 5.30 and prepared for the day so that she could have time to snuggle back in bed with Phoenix to wake, breast feed and play with her before Lucy her nanny arrived and Jackie left for school. When Phoenix was younger, Lucy brought Phoenix to school in the lunch period to be breast fed and after school Jackie went home to Phoenix and Lucy went home to her own house. Jackie had Phoenix because she wanted a child to love and care for. She only had a nanny to care for Phoenix while she was unable to herself, because she was teaching. MR BERGER Can I just stop you there? What work, you say she was teaching, what work was Jackie doing in Maseru? MS QUINN She was a school teacher at Maseru High. MR BERGER Teaching which children? MS QUINN She was teaching English to High School pupils. MR BERGER High School pupils. And was she a member of the ANC? MS QUINN No, no Jackie was never a member of the ANC. MR BERGER Was she a member of MK? MS QUINN No. MR BERGER Okay. Oh, one other question I want to ask you. You say that you had conversations with Jackie. MS QUINN Ja. MR BERGER Where was that, in South Africa or in Lesotho? MS QUINN The conversations I'm referring to here occurred when Jackie came and stayed with me, when she came to South Africa, she drove down with Phoenix when Phoenix was about six months old, ja, July school holidays. MR BERGER Okay. MS QUINN Alright. There's a lot more evidence apart from where Lucy would have been expected to sleep, if she was kept at work all night. Was she supposed to have shared the double bed mattress on the floor of the only bedroom with Jackie and Leon and Phoenix? Remember that Jackie and Leon believed passionately in the right of dignity of all people, they just were not of the mind set to make a maid stay away from her family all night and sleep on a sack on the kitchen floor. Plus, there's the evidence of all the people who were around when Jackie and Leon were killed. There's the neighbours, a woman and her three daughters who lived in the adjoining apartment. They told us how they'd heard unfamiliar noises, screeching car tyres and loud knocking on their door, which they were too afraid to respond to. This turned out to be Leon who then broke through the plate glass of their sliding door to get into their living room where he then told them that: "The Boers have killed my wife". The neighbours left after a while to get help from the police and to get the ambulance. When they returned Joe was dead. The ambulance men from the hospital came to the house, they took the bodies of Jackie and Leon and they took Phoenix with them, back to the hospital. They described her desolate, hysterical crying and when my family were arranging to fetch Phoenix from the hospital where she was kept under armed guard, they were told to bring fresh clothes for her as her's were so blood soaked. Lucy, Phoenix's nanny, found us, the family, in Maseru after a day or two. Together we talked over the whole series of events. Lucy hadn't been there. She was trying to get the whole picture from anyone who might know what happened that evening. MR BERGER Did you actually speak to Lucy? MS QUINN Yes, I spoke to Lucy, amongst others in the family, but I also spoke to her myself and to the neighbours. MR BERGER And she was asking you for information about what had happened at the house that night? MS QUINN Ja and it was a bit of - you know there was a lot of talk around Maseru and Lucy had picked up stories and she had also spoken to the neighbours and it was this business of like comparing information and trying to build a whole picture for ourselves of what had actually gone down there. MR BERGER Thank you, I have no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR BERGER MR HATTINGH Thank you Mr Chairman. CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR HATTINGH Ms Quinn have you been listening to all the evidence so far? MS QUINN I wasn't here for the one session, but right now I have been, ja. MR HATTINGH So far we haven't heard a single witness testifying to the fact that your late sister and her husband, they took their baby child with them to the party. MS QUINN Well, we were told by people who were around at the time and Leon's brother was also told, that Phoenix, that Jackie and Leon left early, partly because Jackie wanted to get Phoenix home and in fact, Mr McCaskill when he was talking earlier, he said that the family left the party. MR HATTINGH Well he didn't mention the child. MS QUINN Well I presume by the family he meant not just the couple. MR HATTINGH Alright we can ask him about that, but if they didn't take their child with them, then naturally they would have asked somebody to look after the child whilst they were at the party. MS QUINN That might be natural in some families. It isn't natural in Jackie's family to have left her baby. The kind of parties that we all went to, was you took your children with you, it was expected. Nobody expected to leave the babies at home with a baby sitter, it wasn't formal dinner type situation where the noise of a baby might interrupt or something. MR HATTINGH But if she wanted to, she could have done that. MS QUINN Who would she have left her with? Her maid did not stay over. MR HATTINGH Well she could have left her with the maid if she wanted to. MS QUINN But her maid worked until 4 or 5 o'clock, she didn't work in the evenings. MR HATTINGH She could have made special arrangements with the maid. MS QUINN I presume anybody could make special arrangements. MR HATTINGH Yes. Can we go on to something else please, Ms Quinn? You say Jackie was not a member of the ANC? MS QUINN Yes. MR HATTINGH Are you aware of the fact that Joe was a member of the ANC? MS QUINN Yes. MR HATTINGH That he was a member of MK? MS QUINN Yes. MR HATTINGH That he was involved in attacks in the Republic? MS QUINN At the time of their death I was not aware of that. I didn't want to know any specific details, it wouldn't have been safe to know any information more than I had to know. MR HATTINGH Yes, but knowing that he was a member of MK, surely you must have accepted that he was part of the armed struggle? MS QUINN Well, I accept that MK was part of the arms struggle, but there are plenty of roles that people play within MK. Some people worked behind a desk. MR HATTINGH Did you not ask you sister what the role was...? MS QUINN No, I didn't ask my sister about it. At South Africa in that time, especially if you were involved in the left, you did not ever want information that other people who you didn't want to have that information might be able to get from you. MR HATTINGH Was there any reason why you would have asked your sister whether she was a member of the ANC? MS QUINN No, because my knowledge of her would be that she would not be a card-carrying member of a political party and that was confirmed by the ANC at the time of her death. MR HATTINGH But you never asked her? MS QUINN No, just I wouldn't have expected her to ask me that. MR HATTINGH Did you ever ask her whether she sympathised with the ANC? MS QUINN I knew that she did. MR HATTINGH That she went along with the arms struggle? MS QUINN We did not discuss in detail what we thought about the arms struggle, but we were, her and I, were definitely both sympathetic to MK. MR HATTINGH Yes. And she was of course aware of the fact that her husband was a member of MK? MS QUINN Of course. MR HATTINGH And she must have been aware that he was involved in, or she must have been aware of what he was involved in. MS QUINN Yes, I'm sure. Whether she ever asked specifics, I doubt, because for the same reason that she came into South Africa on an off and she didn't want to have information to give away either when she was questioned, as she had been on occasion, by Security Police. MR HATTINGH And did she tell you that on occasion her husband left Lesotho and entered the Republic of South Africa? MS QUINN Ja. MR HATTINGH And did she tell you what the purposes of those visits were? MS QUINN No, as I say, we wouldn't discuss information that could be dangerous in the wrong hands. Thank you Mr Chairman, I have no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR HATTINGH JUDGE KHAMPEPE Mr Hattingh, just to put things in perspective, if you check the original statement of Mr McCaskill, there is an indication that Mr and Ms Quinn attended the party that was to be held at his house with the kid. That appears on page 70, paragraph 17. MS QUINN Thank you. MR HATTINGH Mr Chairman, I missed that. I apologise for that, but I will ask Mr McCaskill about that then. MR VISSER I have no questions thank you Chairperson. NO QUESTIONS BY MR VISSER MR LAMEY No questions, thank you Chairperson. NO QUESTIONS BY MR LAMEY MR CORNELIUS I have no questions, thank you Mr Chair. NO QUESTIONS BY MR CORNELIUS MR JOUBERT Mr Chairman, I'm in a position where my client is under cross-examination, I'm unable to take any instructions from him. With your permission ... CHAIRPERSON Take instructions from him. MR JOUBERT Thank you Mr Chair, we have no questions for Ms QUINN. NO QUESTIONS BY MR JOUBERT MS PATEL Thank you Honourable Chairperson, I have no questions either. NO QUESTIONS BY MS PATEL CHAIRPERSON Mr Berger. MR BERGER I have no re-examination. NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR BERGER ADV BOSMAN I have no questions, thank you Chairperson. JUDGE KHAMPEPE I have none. CHAIRPERSON Yes, thank you Ms Quinn. WITNESS EXCUSED MR BERGER Thank you very much Chairperson. We can continue now with Mr McCaskill. MR HATTINGH Thank you Mr Chairman. ELVIS VINCENT McCASKILL (s.u.o.) CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR HATTINGH (Cont) Mr McCaskill, I am going to put certain statements to you on behalf of my client, Mr de Kock. Mr de Kock testified that he did not give him hand grenade which he gave back to you and that he did not give you detonators to attach to other hand grenades. You stated today that you are not certain of his involvement with this. MR McCASKILL That is correct. MR HATTINGH At what stage did you know for the first time that they were planning on killing people there at your house? MR McCASKILL After they asked me. MR HATTINGH After they asked you what? MR McCASKILL After they asked me about the party. MR HATTINGH Was that the arranged party? MR McCASKILL Yes. MR HATTINGH So from that point onwards you knew that the idea behind the party was to shoot people dead there? MR McCASKILL That is correct. MR HATTINGH And at a certain stage you stated that your girlfriend was also aware of what was going on. MR McCASKILL Yes, she knew everything. MR HATTINGH She knew that people would be coming to kill the people at the party? MR McCASKILL Yes. MR HATTINGH When did you tell her? MR McCASKILL It must have been after it was arranged. MR HATTINGH Yes, so she knew prior to the incident that the people coming to the party would be shot dead? MR McCASKILL Yes. MR HATTINGH Mr de Kock also testified and I'm not completely certain of what his evidence was regarding this, so I am speaking subject to correction, but he testified about the beer, the fact that the beer was given to the Ladybrand police in order to enable them to use it and that the beer was not give for the purposes of this party. MR McCASKILL I don't understand. MR HATTINGH Mr de Kock denies that the beer was given for those people who would be at your party on the night of the incident. Do you state that it was? MR McCASKILL That Mr de Kock gave the beers? MR HATTINGH No Mr de Kock denies that beer was given to you which you were supposed to give to the guests at your party that evening, to Leon Meyer and so forth. MR McCASKILL Someone gave it but I did not purchase the beer from my own money. MR HATTINGH And you do not know whether the beer was among all the other beers? MR McCASKILL The marked or unmarked beers? MR HATTINGH The marked beers. MR McCASKILL No, I stated that I could not remember. MR HATTINGH How was it marked? MR McCASKILL I don't know. I cannot recall. MR HATTINGH Then how would you have known? CHAIRPERSON But you must have known, you were supposed to be able to distinguish. MR McCASKILL I cannot recall whether I saw the beer. There was mention of the beer that I would be given, that's all that I can remember. JUDGE KHAMPEPE But that's what you say in your statement. You say you were given three cans of marked Black Label beers. That's what you state. MR McCASKILL Yes and I changed it to my other ...(indistinct) because I wasn't sure. JUDGE KHAMPEPE But didn't you say, before we broke for lunch, during your viva voce that you were given marked Black Label beers? MR McCASKILL I said I wasn't sure if I was give the beer or not, that's what I said. JUDGE KHAMPEPE Now if you were sure that you were given marked beers in 1996 when the facts were much fresher than they are today, why should you change the statement? MR McCASKILL I changed the statement because I wasn't sure that I received the beer, that's why I changed the statement. JUDGE KHAMPEPE What made you to write the statement as it is in 1996 when the facts were much fresher? MR McCASKILL Because I remembered something about the Black Label ...(indistinct) JUDGE KHAMPEPE Yes. Now what has caused you to decide that what you stated in 1996, is not entirely correct? What is it that has made you to change? MR McCASKILL It's because my memory was refreshed here when they mentioned the beer. JUDGE KHAMPEPE How was it refreshed to a point where you've got to change, that you cannot remember whether you were given the marked beers or not? Are you able to say? MR McCASKILL No. CHAIRPERSON Mr McCaskill would you use that head phone please because that way the interpreter can tell you whether she's heard everything or not. Thank you. JUDGE KHAMPEPE Just bring the speaker closer to you because they are finding it difficult to pick up everything that you are saying. At times you speak a little softer. It's difficult for the interpreters to pick up everything you say. MR HATTINGH Paragraph 17 in your original statement, or at least paragraph 16 in your original statement. On what channel are you Mr McCaskill? Can you hear me in Afrikaans or in English? Can you hear me now? MR McCASKILL Yes. MR HATTINGH Paragraph 16 of the original statement, page 70, there you refer to the Black Label that was given to you and the fact that it was marked and so forth. In the evidence-in-chief yesterday you stated that they would give you cans of beer which were marked. You don't know if it was among other beers, do you recall that? MR McCASKILL Yes. MR HATTINGH So you don't really have the recollection that you even received the beer? MR McCASKILL That is correct. MR HATTINGH So they told you that they would give it to you, but you don't know whether it was among the rest of the beer that you received? MR McCASKILL Yes, I remember that we discussed it, but I do not remember taking receipt of it. MR HATTINGH In Exhibit L, paragraph 11 you state in the last paragraph on that page "The next plan was the party at my house. They mentioned marked Black Label beers and sleeping pills but I can't remember if the beers were supplied with the other unmarked cans. I only remember the pills were supplied." Is that your recollection? MR McCASKILL That is correct. MR HATTINGH And you also do not know who gave the liquor? MR McCASKILL I cannot recall. MR HATTINGH What do you mean in paragraph 18 of Exhibit L where you state "When I went back to my place, there were more uninvited guests. I asked them to leave. I took my brother who was already dozed to the outside room." What do you mean by that? What do you mean by the words "dozed"? MR McCASKILL With Brandy and Coke and pills. MR HATTINGH The pills as well, did you give him some of those? MR McCASKILL That's correct. MR HATTINGH Is that Richard McCaskill? MR McCASKILL Yes. MR HATTINGH And when you say that he was already dosed, you could you already see that he had been affected by the combination of liquor and pills? MR McCASKILL He was fast asleep. MR HATTINGH You know that he later made statements to journalists regarding what had taken place, according to these newspaper reports? MR McCASKILL That is correct. MR HATTINGH And in these reports he described how the six persons entered and opened fire and so forth and he would not have been able to do so in his condition? MR McCASKILL That is correct. CHAIRPERSON Was your brother a target? MR McCASKILL No. CHAIRPERSON Why was he "dosed"? MR McCASKILL I wanted to get him out of the way. CHAIRPERSON But I thought that these pills were intended for those persons who were targets, it was intended to put them to sleep. MR McCASKILL That is correct. CHAIRPERSON But if your brother wasn't a target, why was he dosed? MR McCASKILL I just wanted to get him to sleep so that I could get him out of the way so that he wouldn't be injured. JUDGE KHAMPEPE You really took a big chance dosing your brother with the pills that you didn't know whether they were really intended to make you drowsy or kill you. MR McCASKILL They explained to me that they were regular sleeping pills and nothing further. MR HATTINGH Thank you Chair. Mr McCaskill, then you knew that they wanted to shoot these persons dead in the house and you went to Mr de Kock at the Post Office at a certain stage to inform him that there were others in the house as well. Is that correct? MR McCASKILL That is correct. MR HATTINGH And then he told you to return and then to come back to that point in an hours time. MR McCASKILL It happened a number of times. I cannot determine which time you are referring to. MR HATTINGH But did he send you back to get those uninvited persons out of the house? MR McCASKILL That is correct. MR HATTINGH Did you tell him that Mr Meyer and his wife and his child were also there? MR McCASKILL I don't know if I told him that the child was there, but I definitely told him that Leon and Jackie were there. MR HATTINGH And you knew that they were coming to kill them? MR McCASKILL That is correct. MR HATTINGH If there had been a child, would you not have told them? MR McCASKILL Perhaps, but I cannot remember. MR HATTINGH Because if you didn't tell them there would have been 100% certainty that when they stormed in there with guns blazing, the child would have been shot dead. MR McCASKILL They stated prior to the incident that they would not harm the child. MR HATTINGH Who told you that they did not intend to harm the child? MR McCASKILL I cannot recall who it was, I don't know if it was Mr de Kock or someone else. MR HATTINGH Are you therefore saying that you told them that there was a child? MR McCASKILL They knew that Jackie had a child. MR HATTINGH But did they know that Jackie would be in the house with her child? MR McCASKILL I cannot respond to that. MR HATTINGH May I ask you this? Was Jackie's child there? MR McCASKILL Yes. MR HATTINGH Did you tell them so? MR McCASKILL I cannot recall. MR HATTINGH But wasn't it important to you because they only wanted to have ANC members there, that was the target? MR McCASKILL That's correct. MR HATTINGH And the child was not an ANC members. MR McCASKILL That is correct. MR HATTINGH The child was but a baby. But why didn't you tell them that there was a child and that they should beware and not to shoot if there was a child there? MR McCASKILL I might have told them but I cannot remember. MR HATTINGH Mr de Kock differs from you regarding the number of times that you rendezvoused with him at the post office, but I will not dispute this matter with you. At a certain stage you went to him and you told him that there were these uninvited persons who had been there, but were no longer there. Is that correct? MR McCASKILL That is correct. MR HATTINGH And then you told him that the people who were at the house at that point in time were the ANC people. MR McCASKILL That is correct. MR HATTINGH Mr Chairman, I - there are other issues on which his evidence is disputed and has been disputed by Mr de Kock. I don't intend to put all those aspects to him, as long as it's not taken that we're admitting it by not cross-examining him on that and then I have no further questions. Thank you Mr Chairman. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR HATTINGH MR VISSER Thank you Mr Chairman. CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR VISSER Mr McCaskill, it is not my intention to repeat any section regarding which my learned friend Mr Hattingh has examined you. There are just a number of aspects that I must ask you about, the first being whether or not you knew in 1985 that there were many ANC or MK members in Lesotho? MR McCASKILL That is correct. MR VISSER And in the vicinity of October 1985, did you hear of a large group of new MK members who had arrived there? MR McCASKILL Correct. MR VISSER Did you tell this to Mr Willie Coetzee? MR McCASKILL I may have, but I cannot recall. MR VISSER Well, you would have told him because you gave him the correct information. MR McCASKILL That is correct. MR VISSER And did you also tell him at a certain stage that you had seen weapons with the Meyer group? MR McCASKILL No, I cannot recall. MR VISSER Did you ever tell him that you had seen round metal objects? MR McCASKILL No. MR VISSER AK47 guns? MR McCASKILL I never saw AK47 guns. MR VISSER How many times did you bring hand grenades out to show to people, once or twice? MR McCASKILL Only once. MR VISSER Was that to the Vlakplaas group or to the Ladybrand group? Was it to either one of these groups to whom you showed the guns? Can you recall? MR McCASKILL I cannot recall, but the Vlakplaas group was also there. MR VISSER Very well. If you look at bundle 2 page 70 paragraph 15, this is your first affidavit and there you state "On that Friday Teddy and ANC man came to my place." And then you state that you went to Leon and other comrades and that they requested you to take them to Bloemfontein. My first question to you is how many persons were you supposed to take to Bloemfontein? MR McCASKILL Two. MR VISSER Therefore the aspect of the other comrades is incorrect, it was just supposed to be one comrade? MR McCASKILL When they asked me, there were not one or two, there were about four or five. MR VISSER And were you under the impression that you had to take all of them to Bloemfontein? MR McCASKILL No, I knew that I had to take only two. MR VISSER Did they tell you so? MR McCASKILL Yes. MR VISSER And did they tell you on the Friday? But that cannot be correct, it had to have been on the Thursday. MR McCASKILL It was on the same day after the party. MR VISSER And the party was on the Thursday evening. MR McCASKILL So then it must have been the Friday. MR VISSER You stated upon Mr Hattingh's questions, that there were meetings at your house. We know that there were also hand grenades there because Sizwe trained you in the use of these hand grenades and you state that different persons would be there from time to time, that the meetings would amount to 7 to 12 members and were there Lesotho citizens there from time to time? That is what he asked you. MR McCASKILL Yes. MR VISSER What was your response? MR McCASKILL I said that I didn't really know about Lesotho citizens. MR VISSER But what do you say now? Did Lesotho citizens ever attend these meetings? MR McCASKILL My answer would be no, I don't know. MR VISSER The reason why I am putting this to you is because on more than one occasion you were sent by Mr de Kock to ensure that the right people were at the house because whoever was at that house would be shot. MR McCASKILL That is correct. MR VISSER And you state in paragraph 16, the final sentence there, you refer to "10 people at the party." Now which stage are you referring to, when there were 10 persons at the party? Is this the last time that you saw de Kock and you told him that the people were there? MR McCASKILL That is correct. MR VISSER And that is when there were 10? MR McCASKILL Yes, with the exception of my family and the people that I set aside. MR VISSER Yes, that is just the Meyer group. MR McCASKILL If you want to refer to it that way, yes. MR VISSER You see, that's what I don't understand because we know that Jackie and Leon had left and you told this to de Kock, so two of them have already left, then there are 10 persons remaining, but we know that only 7 persons were in the house when de Kock and the others arrived there, so there might have been 3 persons or so who had left in the meantime. MR McCASKILL That is correct. MR VISSER But the fact of the matter remains that 3 of those persons were Lesotho citizens. MR McCASKILL That is correct. MR VISSER Did you know that they were part of these 10 persons? MR McCASKILL They were not there when I made my final check. MR VISSER Are you saying therefore that 6 people of the Meyer group left and that 3 new people joined while you were with de Kock, is that what you're saying? MR McCASKILL Yes, it must have been. MR VISSER But that is highly improbable don't you think? MR McCASKILL It happened that way. MR VISSER Haven't you previous heard of these Lesotho citizens, or ever known their names before you read about them subsequently? MR McCASKILL No. MR VISSER Chairperson, I have no further questions thank you. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VISSER CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR VAN DER MERWE Thank you, Chairperson. Mr McCaskill, when you were at Vlakplaas, I infer from your statement, the first statement that you made, that you came to know Marthinus Ras? MR McCASKILL That is correct. MR VAN DER MERWE You know who that is? MR McCASKILL Yes. MR VAN DER MERWE Because there is a reference in a number of paragraphs on page 72, paragraph 27 and other places, there are references to Marthinus Ras also in paragraph 28 and then I also see in paragraph 20 you also refer to Ras as one of the persons who was involved in the operation. MR McCASKILL That is correct. MR VAN DER MERWE And that is an error that you made? MR McCASKILL Yes. MR VAN DER MERWE The same with Blackie Swart? MR McCASKILL Yes. MR VAN DER MERWE Because Mr Hattingh asked you about Blackie Swart and you were clear that somewhere you heard of Blackie Swart and that you possibly thought that the name was obtained from there somewhere, is that correct? MR McCASKILL Yes. MR VAN DER MERWE But regarding Marthinus Ras there can be no doubt because you knew him well at Vlakplaas? MR McCASKILL That is correct. MR VAN DER MERWE How did it happen that you attached his name to your statement? MR McCASKILL I might have mistaken him for somebody else who was involved. Later through time I learned that he was not involved. MR VAN DER MERWE But you saw the people who were involved that evening. MR McCASKILL Not all of them. MR VAN DER MERWE But you were at the river when they crossed, you saw them later and before the time you saw Coetser, Adamson and de Kock. MR McCASKILL That is correct. MR VAN DER MERWE You saw the rest of the team when you crossed the river back to the RSA. MR McCASKILL Not all of them. MR VAN DER MERWE Who did you not see? MR McCASKILL When we went through the river I saw Snor. MR VAN DER MERWE Well you mentioned Mr Vermeulen's name in the affidavit so you are correct there. MR McCASKILL Yes and Adamson and Mr de Kock and Joe. I am certain of them, yes. MR VAN DER MERWE And you also mention Nortje. You also mention Mr Nortje's name in your statement. MR McCASKILL Yes. MR VAN DER MERWE Are you certain that you saw him? MR McCASKILL I saw him yes. MR VAN DER MERWE But with the knowledge that you had afterwards from Vlakplaas and knowledge that you had of Mr Marthinus Ras, how on earth could you have thought that he was there if you didn't see him? MR McCASKILL As I have said, I must have made a mistake. MR VAN DER MERWE And with regard to paragraph 8, I see that you initially mentioned that there was a braai to which you were called and during that occasion you were told and you refer in your initial statement "They said that if I could assist them to kill Leon and his wife." MR McCASKILL That's correct. MR VAN DER MERWE And in the following statement you say "De Kock, Adamson and other Security Police were present." In other words, you remove the names of Nortje and Blackie Swart there. So in other words I infer from your second statement that you were not certain about Nortje's presence. MR McCASKILL That's correct. MR VAN DER MERWE Because I want to put it to you, it was not put to Mr Nortje that he was present there when he gave evidence there and my instructions in that regard are that he has no knowledge of the discussion during which, or that he was party to a discussion in this context, that they had requested you to kill Leon and his wife, Jackie. MR McCASKILL That's correct. MR VAN DER MERWE And I deduce that in the second statement, without mentioning any names, when you refer to they, then you are not certain of any names, you refer to a group of people without referring to a name. MR McCASKILL That's correct, yes. MR VAN DER MERWE And does this not refer to the applicants here? MR McCASKILL That's correct. MR VAN DER MERWE Then I would just like to ask you with regard to the pills that you had to mix with the liquor, were you told that - may I just ask you, what did these tablets look like? MR McCASKILL They were whitish. MR VAN DER MERWE How many tablets did you have to mix with each drink? MR McCASKILL Just one. MR VAN DER MERWE And how would you do this without being seen? MR McCASKILL Probably stand in some corner. MR VAN DER MERWE How many drinks did you doctor with these pills that night? MR McCASKILL Just one for my brother. MR VAN DER MERWE And one for who? MR McCASKILL One for a man by the name of David and one for my brother, that's all. MR VAN DER MERWE Now this man David, who was he? MR McCASKILL He was also an ANC member who attended the party. MR VAN DER MERWE He was not one of the victims? MR McCASKILL No, as I heard, he was at the party, but he was only injured, that is what I heard. MR VAN DER MERWE In other words you have no recollection of the beer that was given out, the beer that was marked? MR McCASKILL No. MR VAN DER MERWE Did you at any stage report to Mr de Kock that "Listen here, this plan with these tablets to put these people out of action did not work", when you had contact with him? Most of the people were still walking around inside and they were not sleeping. MR McCASKILL No, but the tablets did work. MR VAN DER MERWE But you said only for two people. MR McCASKILL Only two. MR VAN DER MERWE The other people were awake. MR McCASKILL I couldn't give the other people, because they did not drink Brandy, they were drinking beer. MR VAN DER MERWE But the point was they were not sleeping. MR McCASKILL That's correct. MR VAN DER MERWE Did you report to Mr de Kock: "Listen here the idea that you had advocated here, that these people" - we had to find these people asleep so that when Mr de Kock and his people hit. MR McCASKILL That's correct. MR VAN DER MERWE Did you tell Mr de Kock: "Listen, there are only two people to whom I could give these pills, the others are still walking around"? MR McCASKILL Yes, I must have told him. MR VAN DER MERWE Did you tell him? MR McCASKILL I must have told him that most of these people were drinking beer, so I must have said that these people drink mostly beer. I'm not certain, but I must have told him. MR VAN DER MERWE Did you tell him that the other people were not sleeping? MR McCASKILL Yes, I did. MR VAN DER MERWE So why did you never testify about this? Why have you not mentioned this in your evidence? This was an important aspect of the whole operation. MR McCASKILL I don't know why I did not mention it. MR VAN DER MERWE Did you understand that the tablets were given, that these people had to be put out of action and then they would be shot when they were out of action? Is that how you understood it? Do you understand the question? MR McCASKILL I don't understand. MR VAN DER MERWE I will repeat it. Did you understand that the idea with the pills that had to be mixed with the drinks was that these people had to be put to sleep and then they would be shot when they were sleeping? MR McCASKILL That is correct. MR VAN DER MERWE But if that was so, why did you give your brother a sleeping tablet? MR McCASKILL Because I didn't want him to give me any trouble when I was getting out of the house. MR VAN DER MERWE But when Mr de Kock and his men got there and found the man sleeping, then they would shoot him. MR McCASKILL Yes, in the house yes, but he was not in the house, he was in the outside room. MR VAN DER MERWE But they could have gone in there. MR McCASKILL But I told them about the outside room, they knew about it. MR VAN DER MERWE I have no further questions, thank you Chairperson. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VAN DER MERWE MR NEL No questions thank you Chair. NO QUESTIONS BY MR NEL CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR BERGER Mr McCaskill, I'll ask questions in English, you're free to answer in Afrikaans. I just want to say at the outset, Mr McCaskill that I understand that 15 years is a long time for you to be expected to remember every detail of what happened and I understand if you can't recall who said what to you when and who gave what to you when and who met you where and when. I understand all of those things. I can't remember what I did in December 1985 either, but if I was planning to murder someone, that I would remember. So I want to ask you details about the plans for the murder, not who said what when, but just the big plans and if you can try and just limit yourself to that. The big plan which is common cause it seems with everyone is that there was going to be a party and you were going to arrange for people to be at a party, ANC people, in fact Leon Meyer and his group, to be specific, so that they could be killed at that party, that was the final plan. Am I right? MR McCASKILL That's right. MR BERGER Now in your first statement, well, let me just stop there. Mr Visser is correct when he says that the party was on the Thursday night and not the Friday night as you say in your statement and you've conceded that. Now in your first statement you talk about another party which was held before the final party. Now is it your evidence that that, let me call it the first party, that that party was in fact held? MR McCASKILL Yes, but it wasn't a party, I was mistaken, it's an annual gathering that they have, I don't know, some kind of annual gathering that they do every year. MR BERGER And you told de Kock about that gathering as well? MR McCASKILL No, he asked me to find out about it. MR BERGER Would you prefer to speak Afrikaans? MR McCASKILL He asked me to find out about it. MR BERGER Now can you remember whether that gathering was held on a weekend or whether it was held during the week, or was it held on a specific day because it commemorated something? MR McCASKILL I can't remember, but I know that it commemorates something but I can't remember when it was held, on a Saturday, Monday or Friday. MR BERGER Can you remember whether a number of days passed between that gathering and the final party at which the people were killed? MR McCASKILL Only a few days. MR BERGER Could it have been a week between the two? MR McCASKILL Not two or three weeks, but less. JUDGE KHAMPEPE May I interpose please, Mr Berger? Was the commemorating party held over a weekend, or was it during the week? MR McCASKILL I can't remember. JUDGE KHAMPEPE Thank you Mr Berger. MR BERGER Now was it your understanding that the attack was going to take place initially at that first gathering, that de Kock and his men were going to attack at the first gathering? MR McCASKILL As I understood it, yes. MR BERGER You see, if you look at page 70 paragraph 13 of your statement, well, let me go first to paragraph 11 on page 69. This is where you talk about the plan where you were going to lure Leon Meyer to a spot where de Kock could then kill him. Your evidence is that - you stand by that, that was still the first plan, to kill Leon Meyer? MR McCASKILL That's right. MR BERGER Then at the bottom of that page you say "De Kock asked me as to when do these MK people come as a group to my place and I told them that they never come as a group to my place. They told me that there would be a party for ANC people and I should find out as to where will that party be held." Now am I correct that there you are referring to the commemoration that you said de Kock told you about? MR McCASKILL That's correct, yes. MR BERGER Then you say in paragraph 12 "Jabu an ANC man, came to inform me about this coming party and asked me to fetch him, since he did not have transport, but he never told me about the venue. He promised to inform me. The following day I met Eugene de Kock at the place near Ladybrand and told him that I know there will be a party but I do not know the venue. They instructed me to try all means to find out about the venue." And then in 13 you say how Jabu informed you about the party which would be held at George Kapedi's place and then you told de Kock about the party and the venue. Is that still your evidence? MR McCASKILL That's correct, yes. MR BERGER And then in 13 you describe how in fact you took de Kock, Nortje, Vermeulen and others to the venue where the commemoration was being held, but there was no attack at that stage. MR McCASKILL Yes. MR BERGER Did that happen? In other words, can you recall, if you can't, say so, but can you recall taking de Kock and his men to this venue where the commemoration was being held? MR McCASKILL Yes, I did go and show them. MR BERGER So according to you, that would have been the second plan to kill Leon Meyer and this time some of his soldiers? MR McCASKILL That's correct, yes. MR BERGER And then as you know, there was a - well according to you there would have been a third plan which was the final part? MR McCASKILL Yes. MR BERGER Now I want to go a little bit back in time as well. There was a time when you were asked by de Kock and some of his men to look through a photograph album and to point out Leon Meyer and other MK soldiers that you knew. MR McCASKILL That's correct. MR BERGER You pointed out Leon Meyer, but you said no, that's an old picture of him and then you arranged for the meeting in the bar. MR McCASKILL That's correct. MR BERGER Did that happen? MR McCASKILL Yes, it did. MR BERGER How long before the first attempt, you understand when I refer to three attempts, the first attempt is the one where Leon Meyer would be killed on his own, the second attempt is where Leon Meyer would be killed at the commemoration and the third attempt is where Leon Meyer would be killed at the party? You're with my terminology? MR McCASKILL Yes. MR BERGER Okay. How long before the first attempt, if you can say, was the meeting in the bar, a day, two days, a few days? MR McCASKILL It was a few days, I cannot recall exactly when it was. MR BERGER How long between the first attempt and the second attempt? Can you say? MR McCASKILL Really not. MR BERGER And again you said between the second attempt and the third attempt, you say it could have been a week? MR McCASKILL Yes. MR BERGER But you're not certain of these dates? MR McCASKILL I'm not certain. MR BERGER Okay. No, I understand that. Now when was the first time that de Kock asked you about Leon Meyer? When was the first time you were asked anything about Leon Meyer? MR McCASKILL It was - it started with Mr Willie, he was the first guy who asked me about Leon Meyer. MR BERGER I beg your pardon? MR McCASKILL I said the first person who asked me about Leon Meyer was Willie Coetzee. MR BERGER Just to go back, were you in Lesotho during 1982? MR McCASKILL Yes. MR BERGER Do you remember the raid on Maseru in 1982? MR McCASKILL Yes. MR BERGER Do you remember when that was? MR McCASKILL I think it was also in December. MR BERGER ; Round about the 10th or the 12th of December? MR McCASKILL That's correct. MR BERGER Could that have been the commemoration? MR McCASKILL It could be, yes. MR BERGER Now when Willie Coetzee was asking you about Leon Meyer, you hadn't yet met Eugene de Kock? MR McCASKILL That's correct, yes. MR BERGER Subsequent to that you met Eugene de Kock. Now was that in South Africa or in Lesotho? MR McCASKILL In South Africa. MR BERGER In Ladybrand? MR McCASKILL That's correct. MR BERGER And was that when you were asked to look through the photo album? MR McCASKILL I cannot recall whether I looked through the album on that specific day, but I have gone through the album along with Mr de Kock. MR BERGER From the time that you met Eugene de Kock in Ladybrand, until the time of the attack, is it correct that you went in and out of Lesotho a number of times to Ladybrand and back? MR McCASKILL That's correct, yes. MR BERGER And all the time going back and forth, back and forth, the point of those meetings was to give more and more information on Leon Meyer and his group? MR McCASKILL That's correct, yes. MR BERGER For the purposes of launching an attack on them? MR McCASKILL That's correct. MR BERGER And this went through from the time you looked at the photo albums through to the first attempt, the second - I beg your pardon, the photo albums, the meeting in the bar, the first attempt, the second attempt and the final attempt? MR McCASKILL That's correct. MR BERGER Do you know if anyone survived the attack? MR McCASKILL I'm not sure. I just heard that someone had survived. MR BERGER Do you know someone with the name Wanda? MR McCASKILL Maybe by some other name, not that name. MR BERGER Do you know whether the information that you were giving through to de Kock was being confirmed by any other informer? MR McCASKILL At that stage I did not know, but later I learned that it was so. MR BERGER ; Who was that informer? MR McCASKILL I do not know, I really do not know. CHAIRPERSON How did you find out that your information was confirmed? MR McCASKILL Somebody told me at the Security Branch. MR BERGER Mr McCaskill, is it still your evidence that right from the beginning you were asked by de Kock whether you could assist him to kill Leon Meyer and his wife? MR McCASKILL That's correct. MR BERGER Were you asked to look for her photograph in the photo album? MR McCASKILL I think so, but I cannot recall whether her photo was in the photo album. MR BERGER This is the so-called terrorist album that we hear so much about. MR McCASKILL That's correct, yes. CHAIRPERSON How many of those photos did you recognise? MR BERGER Only those of the people whom I knew. CHAIRPERSON How many? MR McCASKILL Approximately 15 or so. CHAIRPERSON And how many times were you asked to look through that album? MR McCASKILL I cannot recall, but I will guess. Approximately 5 times or so. CHAIRPERSON And all the people whom you recognise from there, were they all members of the ANC? MR McCASKILL The fifteen people? CHAIRPERSON Yes. MR McCASKILL That's correct. CHAIRPERSON How did you know? MR McCASKILL They were people I knew, I knew they were ANC members. CHAIRPERSON But how did you know? MR McCASKILL I knew them, they came to visit my house sometimes. MR BERGER Thank you Chair. Can you remember the names of any of the people other than Leon Meyer or Joe, who you pointed out? MR McCASKILL Teddy ...(indistinct) MR BERGER Sorry, just go a bit slower. MR McCASKILL Teddy. MR BERGER Terry? MR McCASKILL Teddy. MR BERGER Who's Teddy? MR McCASKILL I don't know his other name, I only know him as Teddy. He was also killed in that ...(indistinct) MR BERGER Okay. He was killed the night of the attack? MR McCASKILL Yes. MR BERGER Okay, who else? You said Mary Mini? MR McCASKILL Yes. MR BERGER And who else? MR McCASKILL Moses and there was a David. CHAIRPERSON Mr Berger these are names of people whose photos he pointed out in albums? MR BERGER Names of people he pointed out in the photo album, yes. MR McCASKILL There was also a Sizwe. JUDGE KHAMPEPE Would that be the same Sizwe who is known as Dick? MR McCASKILL That's right. JUDGE KHAMPEPE You sister's boyfriend? MR McCASKILL That's right. And I can't remember the others. MR BERGER You pointed out your house mate who was also your sister's boyfriend. MR McCASKILL My house mate, my sister's boyfriend. MR BERGER Your sister's boyfriend is Dick. Who were you sharing a house with? MR McCASKILL Dick. MR BERGER Is that not the same Dick. MR McCASKILL The same Sizwe. MR BERGER Yes, you were sharing a house with him and he was your sister's boyfriend and you pointed him out to the Security Police as an ANC member. MR McCASKILL That's right. CHAIRPERSON Did you think what's going to happen to him once you pointed him out? MR McCASKILL They knew that I knew him, so I had to point him. CHAIRPERSON What did you think was going to happen to him? MR McCASKILL I didn't know at the time. CHAIRPERSON Are you sure? MR McCASKILL I'm sure. CHAIRPERSON You were oblivious of the workings of the Special Branch of South Africa. You didn't know they go out and kill people? MR McCASKILL I knew there were some people who went out killing, but I didn't know it was the Special Branch. CHAIRPERSON Oh. JUDGE KHAMPEPE When did you start staying in Maseru, Mr McCaskill? I know you previously stayed in Bloemfontein. MR McCASKILL It was in - I think I started working in Maseru in 1980 or 81. JUDGE KHAMPEPE So you knew quite well what was happening inside the country, the Government's attitude towards the ANC, that you knew? MR McCASKILL Yes. JUDGE KHAMPEPE So you were aware that when you were pointing out these people you were not pointing them out to enable the police to take them to a Sunday School, were you not? MR McCASKILL Yes. JUDGE KHAMPEPE So you must have known that there were dire consequences as a result of your pointing them out to the Security Police. MR McCASKILL I'd say yes. JUDGE KHAMPEPE Yes and it's not true that you did not know what consequences would follow as a result of your pointing out. MR McCASKILL Yes. MR BERGER Mr McCaskill what were you doing in Maseru? MR McCASKILL I was working for the ...(indistinct) Hotels. MR BERGER As what? MR McCASKILL I was a maintenance manager. MR BERGER Now who did you think was responsible for the 1982 raid? MR McCASKILL I honestly don't know. MR BERGER No, at the time, you didn't know? MR McCASKILL I don't know, even now I don't know. MR BERGER Did you finish school in South Africa? MR McCASKILL No, in Lesotho. MR BERGER What standard did you get up to? MR McCASKILL I got up to standard 9 and then went to a ... MR BERGER You can speak Afrikaans. MR McCASKILL I went to a trade school. MR BERGER Now when Mr de Kock said to you that he would pay you R5 000 per - well he said he would pay you R5 000 for Leon Meyer and R5 000 for Jackie Quinn, am I right? MR McCASKILL That's right. CHAIRPERSON It goes further, and any other terrorist. MR BERGER R5 000 for any other MK soldier, well he didn't use those words, he said ANC - what words did he use? MR McCASKILL Any other ANC member, or terrorists, I think he said terrorists. MR BERGER Well what did he say? Can you remember? MR McCASKILL I think he said terrorists. MR BERGER You'll have to speak into the microphone. MR McCASKILL I think he said terrorists. MR BERGER ; R5 000 a head? MR McCASKILL Yes. MR BERGER But at the end of the day, you only got R2 000 a head. MR McCASKILL That's correct. MR BERGER So you were short-changed R27 000, 9 times R# 000. MR McCASKILL Yes. MR BERGER What reason were you given for being short-changed? MR McCASKILL He did not give me a reason he only told me that the people were only prepared to give me R2 000 a head, that's all. MR BERGER But didn't you ask him why? The promise was R5 000 a head, now you're only getting R2 000 a head, that's quite difference. MR McCASKILL Yes, but I didn't ask. CHAIRPERSON But you had been robbed, is that not so? MR McCASKILL Yes. I said yes. CHAIRPERSON But you were in this thing completely, you were a paid informant for the Security Police. It's almost like a contract I would say. You have to assist and you must do this and that and you will receive R5 000 a head. So why did you not argue this? You were in this thing now. MR McCASKILL He said that he would speak to them, but I didn't argue. CHAIRPERSON Were you satisfied with R18 000? MR McCASKILL I was not satisfied because I wasn't after the money. CHAIRPERSON You wanted more? MR McCASKILL But in the first instance I wasn't after the money, but at that stage I didn't have anything, I didn't have a job, I lost my car and all my other things. CHAIRPERSON Yes, Mr Berger. MR BERGER Thank you Chairperson. Mr McCaskill, didn't it have anything to do with the fact that some of the people who were killed were neither ANC members nor so-called terrorists? MR McCASKILL He brought it up that they had said that three people were there, they will not pay for three people there, who were Lesotho citizens. MR BERGER Is this what Mr de Kock said? MR McCASKILL That's right, yes. MR BERGER And that's why the amount was reduced? MR McCASKILL I don't know whether that was the reason but he told me they would only pay R2 000 a head. They were only prepared to pay R2 000 a head. MR BERGER Who is the "hulle" that are not prepared to pay more than R2 000 a head? MR McCASKILL It was the people who dealt with the money, I suppose. CHAIRPERSON I don't understand now. There were 9 people who were killed, is that right? MR McCASKILL That's right. CHAIRPERSON They came to you and said that: "Listen, they will not pay for the Lesotho citizens"? MR McCASKILL That's correct. CHAIRPERSON So according to your definition and they worked it out that they only have to pay for 6 people, is that correct? MR McCASKILL Yes, that's how I understood it initially. CHAIRPERSON So they gave you R3 000 per person, per head. MR McCASKILL That could be, but as I understood it, he went and told his superiors that the other three persons were persons who had received crash courses, so that I could get the money for these people, so I understood that I received R2 000 per head from de Kock. CHAIRPERSON And then later ...? MR BERGER According to your evidence you say that Mr de Kock told you that they were not prepared, his or the people who dealt with the money were not prepared to pay for the three Lesotho citizens who were killed? MR McCASKILL Yes. MR BERGER And that's why, well you say it wasn't linked, but you then got R18 000? MR McCASKILL Yes, but there was some stage when he told me that he will go and speak to them, but if they can ask me, I should tell them that the other three Lesotho citizens were people who had received crash courses. MR BERGER Mr Nortje says that he heard that you were paid R25 000. MR McCASKILL No, that's not correct, that's a lie. MR BERGER And that would have been R5 000 for the five ANC soldiers. MR McCASKILL No, I was only paid R18 000. MR BERGER You accepted the money? MR McCASKILL Yes, I did. MR BERGER You used the money? MR McCASKILL Yes, I did. MR BERGER You said that you weren't sure what Mr de Kock's intentions were. You weren't really sure that he was coming to kill the people at your house, is that right? MR McCASKILL Yes, at first I wasn't certain. MR BERGER This is after he's promised you R5 000 a head, you didn't take him seriously? MR McCASKILL Yes. MR BERGER Then there are a number of attempts on Leon Meyer. You still didn't take him seriously. MR McCASKILL They refused a number of times during the planning, such as the evening of the annual part of the ANC, they pulled out themselves. MR BERGER Okay, but now the last attempt, the third attempt, now you had to know that he was serious because he's now in Maseru, waiting at the Post Office, he sends you back to the house to get rid of people who shouldn't be there. You yourself take precautions to get your brother out of the way, to get your sister out of the way, you take all of those precautions. At that stage you must have known that he was coming to kill the people at your house? MR McCASKILL Yes, and I saw the firearms as well. MR BERGER Ja, so now there's no doubt? MR McCASKILL Yes. MR BERGER Alright. Why on earth didn't you warn Leon Meyer and his comrades of this pending attack? MR McCASKILL I was already in too deep and I didn't know what they would do if they found out that I had sold them to such an extend. MR BERGER Mr McCaskill, they could have laid an ambush for Mr de Kock and his men, they could have wiped Mr de Kock and his men out when they came to attack them and you would have been hailed as a hero. Why did you not do that? MR McCASKILL As I have stated, I knew that the South Africans had more power, so to speak, so I was actually more concerned with my own safety. MR BERGER Well ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON Isn't it a fact that you didn't do anything because you were on their payroll? MR McCASKILL No, I wasn't on their payroll by then. CHAIRPERSON You must have been because they promised you money. It must have been arranged. MR McCASKILL Yes, I was paid for that but I wasn't on their payroll before that. CHAIRPERSON You were on their payroll schedule, if this a success, you're going to get paid, not so? MR McCASKILL Okay. CHAIRPERSON And that's the reason you didn't go tell Leon about this impending attack. Not so? MR McCASKILL In actual fact I was more concerned with my own safety than anything else. MR BERGER Okay. If that is the reason, why didn't you apply for amnesty? MR McCASKILL Nobody advised me to do so. I didn't know anything. MR BERGER You didn't know about the amnesty process? MR McCASKILL No, when we went to Durban to make our statements, no one advised us to make application for amnesty. MR BERGER You weren't aware of the fact that there was an amnesty process in operation? MR McCASKILL Nothing. MR BERGER And when you were contacted to come and give evidence here, what was your attitude? MR McCASKILL Before I found out about the amnesty applications, there was someone whom I can no longer recall, but someone who was with the investigator. CHAIRPERSON Are you saying that it was too late for you to apply? MR McCASKILL I made inquiries as to whether or not it would be necessary, after I heard of the amnesty process. Then someone told me that I would not be able to apply for amnesty because whatever action I committed, I committed for profit, it was not politically motivated. Someone explained it to me as such. CHAIRPERSON Well that is indeed so, is it not, that you did draw profit? MR McCASKILL Yes, I took the money, I accept that. MR BERGER Now Mr McCaskill, when you were located and asked to come and give evidence here, did you do so voluntarily? MR McCASKILL Yes, I came as soon as I was contacted. MR BERGER And you came to give evidence voluntarily? MR McCASKILL Yes. MR BERGER I want to ask you about the events at Leon Meyer's house. De Kock sent you, Adamson and Coetser to that house. MR McCASKILL That's correct. MR BERGER The two murderers, Adamson and Coetser, of them Adamson is dead and Coetser couldn't even be bothered to apply for amnesty, so unfortunately you're the only person who can tell us what happened at that house. Well anyway, in these proceedings you're the only person who can tell us. So I'm going to ask you please to try and remember as much detail of what happened as possible. You were the person, am I correct, who directed Coetser and Adamson to that house? MR McCASKILL Correct. MR BERGER Because you knew where the house was. MR McCASKILL Correct. MR BERGER Because they were your friends? MR McCASKILL Correct. MR BERGER Now did you see that Adamson and Coetser were both armed? MR McCASKILL Correct. MR BERGER You were then sent to the front door of the house, am I right? MR McCASKILL That's correct. MR BERGER And who gave you instructions? MR McCASKILL Adamson. MR BERGER And where was Coetser when he gave you those instructions? MR McCASKILL He was there. MR BERGER And what did Adamson instruct you to do? MR McCASKILL He told me to know on the door and that as soon as the people opened the door, I should start the car and be ready for them when they return. MR BERGER And what were you told to say at the door? MR McCASKILL I had to say that it was me. I had to say my name. MR BERGER Well you see you didn't give this evidence. The only evidence you've given so far is that you knocked on the door and you went back to the car. So please try and elaborate. MR McCASKILL I knocked on the door and then she asked who it was and I said that it was me. MR BERGER I'm sorry, apparently I've been unfair to you. Well if my learned friends are going to shake their heads ...(intervention) MR VISSER Well, Chairperson, he gave evidence that I heard, not that I have anything to do with it, to say that he knocked on the door, she asked who it was, he said it was him, he then left, he was then told to go away. That was his evidence. MR BERGER Then I apologise Mr McCaskill. MR McCASKILL No, I can say it again if you want. MR BERGER Please. MR McCASKILL I knocked on the door, then she asked who it was. I said it was me. She began to open the door, then I walked away and went to start the car. MR BERGER So you said it's Elvis. MR McCASKILL Yes, I said it's Tiny, because they knew me as Tiny. MR BERGER And it was Jackie Quinn who came to the door? MR McCASKILL That is correct. MR BERGER And you said nothing more? Did you run away or did you walk? MR McCASKILL No, I just walked away. MR BERGER And at the time when you knocked on the door, where were Adamson and Coetser? MR McCASKILL They were just behind me. MR BERGER So when she opened the door and she saw you, would she have seen them standing right behind you? MR McCASKILL Yes, I would accept it as such. She probably expected to see me, but she didn't see me, instead she saw Adamson and Coetser. They were very close to the door. MR BERGER So did she not see you? Did you not see her? CHAIRPERSON I don't know if he can say so. What I understand from his evidence is that he moved away before the door was completely open. She might have seen him. MR BERGER And then you just moved away? MR McCASKILL That's correct. MR BERGER And you didn't hear a thing of what was happening in the house? MR McCASKILL Nothing. MR BERGER You didn't hear any shots being fired? MR McCASKILL Nothing. MR BERGER I take it if a silencer had been pulled off a gun, you would have heard the shots being fired? MR McCASKILL Yes. I mean between the house and the car, because I climbed into the car and started it. I didn't hear any shots. MR BERGER How far was your car from the front door? MR McCASKILL The car was parked near the gate. There were a few trees in the yard and the car was parked outside the yard, near those trees. It must have been about 30 metres. MR BERGER The point I want to make is if it was normal gunshots without the benefit of a silencer, you would have heard the gunshots? MR McCASKILL Correct. MR BERGER So can we assume that both guns were fired with silencers? MR McCASKILL I know that Joe had a gun which was fitted with a silencer, but Adamson just had a pistol. I don't know whether the pistol was fitted with a silencer. MR BERGER When you say Joe, you mean Coetser? MR McCASKILL Adamson ... MR BERGER No, Adamson had a pistol, but Joe had the gun - Coetser had the gun with the silencer? MR McCASKILL Correct. MR BERGER And as far as you say, the pistol which Adamson had, did not have a silencer. MR McCASKILL Correct. MR BERGER So can we assume that the only person who did the shooting, was Coetser? MR McCASKILL I wouldn't know, but I do recall Adamson said something to the effect that he gave him one in the head and Joe said that he gave her two in the chest. CHAIRPERSON Mr McCaskill you have just been asked to describe who had firearms and who had silencers and then it was put to you whether or not it is correct that they were the ones who killed them and you said that you could not answer, you would not be able to say. MR McCASKILL What I heard ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON But who else could have shot them? MR McCASKILL I'm trying to explain that I do not know whether Joe shot Leon or whether Adamson shot Jackie. That is what I am trying to explain. MR BERGER No that's correct, Mr McCaskill, I know that you're not disputing that it's either Coetser or Adamson or both. MR McCASKILL Correct. MR BERGER I know that and you are correct, I was trying to determine from you whether it was Adamson or whether it was Coetser. Your evidence, if I can summarise, is that you saw Coetser having a silencer, not Adamson. MR McCASKILL Correct. MR BERGER You didn't hear any gun shots? MR McCASKILL Nothing. MR BERGER You would have heard gun shots if a silencer hadn't been used. MR McCASKILL I would accept that a pistol without a silencer makes quite a noise. MR BERGER You would have heard a pistol being shot without a silencer? MR McCASKILL I think so, yes. MR BERGER But what you also know is that after the fact, when they reported, when Adamson and Coetser reported back to de Kock, Adamson said words to the effect that he had shot Leon Meyer once in the head and Coetser reported that he had shot Jackie Quinn twice in the chest. MR McCASKILL Correct. MR BERGER Did you hear anything else that Coetser said as to why he shot Jackie Quinn? MR McCASKILL No. MR BERGER You wouldn't have expected an explanation from him because you expected Jackie Quinn to be killed, is that correct? MR McCASKILL Correct. MR BERGER Did you hear any screaming coming from the house? MR McCASKILL No, nothing. MR BERGER You didn't hear any sounds at all? MR McCASKILL Nothing. MR BERGER How long did they spend in the house? MR McCASKILL It could not have been more than three to four minutes. MR BERGER Did they mention anything about a baby sitter? MR McCASKILL No, they simply said that they left the child on the bed. MR BERGER When Leon Meyer and Jackie Quinn came to your house for the party, did they come with or without their baby? MR McCASKILL The child was with them, yes. MR BERGER And when they left to go home, did they go with or without their baby? MR McCASKILL They went with the child. MR BERGER And when you referred, earlier in your evidence, to Leon and family coming to your house, to the party and leaving the party, whom were you referring to as family? MR McCASKILL When I said family, I was including Jackie and the kid. MR BERGER Did you know whether Jackie Quinn was a member of MK, a solider? MR McCASKILL No. MR BERGER Did you know whether she was a member of the ANC? MR McCASKILL No. MR BERGER Did you tell either de Kock or any of his men or Willie Coetzee that Jackie Quinn was an MK soldier? MR McCASKILL No. MR BERGER Did you tell de Kock or any of his men, or Willie Coetser that Jackie Quinn was an ANC member? MR McCASKILL No. MR BERGER And the three Lesotho citizens who were killed, you say you had never seen them before? MR McCASKILL I don't know who they are, I haven't seen pictures of them. MR BERGER When you left the final time to go and to report to de Kock that the coast was clear, and the attack could begin, were there any Lesotho citizens attending the party? MR McCASKILL I had already put everyone out. MR BERGER Tell me Mr McCaskill is it so unusual for people to come to parties uninvited? MR McCASKILL No, it isn't. MR BERGER At the time in Maseru 1982, 83, 84, 85, was it unusual for people from the neighbourhood to come to parties uninvited? MR McCASKILL No it wasn't, I also did so regularly. MR BERGER It wasn't unusual? MR McCASKILL Correct. MR BERGER I'm sorry Chairperson, could I just have a moment please? Thank you. Thank you Chairperson, I have no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR BERGER CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS PATEL Thank you Honourable Chairperson, just one aspect I'd like clarity on Mr McCaskill. Regarding the people that you were supposed to gather for the party, how did you know who was supposed to be at that party? MR McCASKILL We went through them in the album, so we know who would be at my house. MS PATEL Okay and out of the ten people whom you say you had left there the last time you were at the house, were they all meant to be there, according to your identification from the albums? MR McCASKILL Correct. MS PATEL Right. Thank you Honourable Chairperson. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS PATEL CHAIRPERSON Mr Joubert. MR JOUBERT I have no re-examination thank you Chairman. NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR JOUBERT ADV BOSMAN Just one question, thank you. Mr McCaskill, you stated that the people who were there were persons who had been identified. How had they been identified? As MK members? As ANC members? As person who were infiltrating the country? In other words, how was the group that you were supposed to gather together described? MR McCASKILL I didn't know who was ANC, or who was MK, I simply knew ANC members. ADV BOSMAN But when you were instructed to arrange the party, what was said to you, what sort of persons did you have to have there? MR McCASKILL We spoke primarily of ANC members, any ANC members. ADV BOSMAN Thank you. JUDGE KHAMPEPE Mr McCaskill, how far was your house from the post office where you had various meetings with de Kock shortly before the attack took place? MR McCASKILL I am not completely certain, but I estimate that it was between three to five kilometres. JUDGE KHAMPEPE How long would it have taken you to drive from your house to the post office? MR McCASKILL A few minutes, between five and seven. It would depend on the traffic lights in the road and traffic, but between five and seven minutes. JUDGE KHAMPEPE This operation took place at about 11 o'clock at night. MR McCASKILL A bit later than that, I would say. JUDGE KHAMPEPE Your first meeting with de Kock took place at about 11 o'clock that night? MR McCASKILL No, not my first one, my last one. JUDGE KHAMPEPE Your last meeting? MR McCASKILL Yes. JUDGE KHAMPEPE Your first meeting? MR McCASKILL Round about 8 o'clock, I think. JUDGE KHAMPEPE Around about 8 o'clock? MR McCASKILL Or maybe a bit later on. I'm not sure if it was 8 or 9, but it was still early. JUDGE KHAMPEPE And the traffic is fairly smooth around that time? The traffic on the road is fairly smooth around that time? MR McCASKILL It's not very busy, if that's what you mean. JUDGE KHAMPEPE Yes. Now let's go back to when you were used as a source by Mr Coetzee. The thrust of your evidence is that Mr Willie Coetzee was your handler. MR McCASKILL Correct. JUDGE KHAMPEPE Did you ever have an occasion to be handled by Capt Fouche? MR McCASKILL No. JUDGE KHAMPEPE Did you know him? MR McCASKILL Very well, yes. JUDGE KHAMPEPE But it was Mr Coetzee who handled you directly? MR McCASKILL Correct. JUDGE KHAMPEPE How long had you been working for Mr Coetzee as a source, when you were introduced to Mr de Kock? MR McCASKILL Between the time that I gave him false information and correct information, I would say that it was approximately a month, it wasn't very long. JUDGE KHAMPEPE It wasn't very long? Now your evidence has been that your first contact was around November of 1985, so one would be able to place the first introduction by Mr Coetzee of Mr de Kock to around December of 1985? MR McCASKILL That's correct. JUDGE KHAMPEPE Would you say that was early December, or late December? It is important for me to know to be able to put time frames in view of what Mr de Kock has already testified on this aspect. MR McCASKILL I would say approximately two weeks before the raid, according to my estimation. JUDGE KHAMPEPE Two weeks before the raid? MR McCASKILL Yes. JUDGE KHAMPEPE So it would be around mid December when you were first introduced to Mr de Kock? MR McCASKILL Correct. JUDGE KHAMPEPE Now your contact with Mr de Kock, did it involve Mr Coetzee? MR McCASKILL After he introduced me to Mr de Kock, there were a few occasions upon which Mr Coetzee was with, but mostly it was Mr de Kock or Mr Adamson who came to me. JUDGE KHAMPEPE Now for two weeks, what kind of information did you specifically provide Mr de Kock with? MR McCASKILL It was mostly, like I said, the names and like the time that they had arranged eg when I had to take Leon Meyer to the river and such things. JUDGE KHAMPEPE Was there an occasion when you took Mr Meyer to the river? MR McCASKILL It should have been so but it didn't happen so. JUDGE KHAMPEPE Was that the only information that you provided to Mr de Kock for two weeks? MR McCASKILL Yes, just names and pointing out people and giving addresses, but no specifics other, that's all. JUDGE KHAMPEPE Did they tell you people's names and you had to put faces to those names? What was the procedure that took place? MR McCASKILL The whole thing was that they knew these people by other names and I knew these people by other names, so we had to go through this large book to see who is who and then I would say that this is him or this is not him, for example, let's say I know a Dick and he knows a Dick in the ANC, then we were going to look for that Dick in the album and we will try to see whether we are talking about the same person, something like that. JUDGE KHAMPEPE Was it the same process that you were involved with when you were being handled by Mr Coetzee? MR McCASKILL Yes, more or less the same. JUDGE KHAMPEPE So Mr de Kock came and repeated basically the same thing? MR McCASKILL I did not go many times through the album with Mr de Kock, maybe once or twice. Most of the albums I had gone through with Mr Willie Coetzee. JUDGE KHAMPEPE Yes, that would be my understanding of the situation. MR McCASKILL Mr de Kock and I, I would say, we always met when I had to go and hear about a plan that he wanted to make for the raid, I will put it as such. JUDGE KHAMPEPE So with Mr de Kock, you were actually discussing the plan of the attack? MR McCASKILL Most of the time. JUDGE KHAMPEPE This plan was discussed with you for about two weeks before the raid took place? MR McCASKILL That's correct, yes. JUDGE KHAMPEPE And you are sure about this time period, because it is important? MR McCASKILL I am certain. JUDGE KHAMPEPE Now the information that you provided to Mr Coetzee, what money were you paid for that? MR McCASKILL As I have said, I was not paid for any information, but when I perhaps came to Ladybrand, they would give me petrol money, but I was not given any specific amount of money for information, nothing. JUDGE KHAMPEPE Were you not assigned a particular number as a source for Mr Coetzee? MR McCASKILL No. JUDGE KHAMPEPE And how was this petrol money given to you? MR McCASKILL Just so, out of his pocket by hand. JUDGE KHAMPEPE Were you always given petrol money for your meetings with Mr Coetzee? MR McCASKILL If he called me, yes, not if he met me along the road, of if I would pass Bloemfontein tomorrow and he will meet me at the border post, but if he called me and he told me to come to Ladybrand the following day, then he would pay me. JUDGE KHAMPEPE And you considered yourself a source for Mr Coetzee? MR McCASKILL That's correct, yes. JUDGE KHAMPEPE Thank you. CHAIRPERSON Mr McCaskill, you were supposed to arrange this party to gather all the people who were supposed to be killed, not os? MR McCASKILL That's correct, yes. CHAIRPERSON Who were those people that you were told to gather at this party? MR McCASKILL I remember some of the names were like Leon was one of them. CHAIRPERSON Mr McCaskill, you're responsible for their deaths. I expect you to remember them. MR McCASKILL I can't remember all of them now. CHAIRPERSON Why not? MR McCASKILL It's a long time ago. I can't remember. CHAIRPERSON Who do you remember? MR McCASKILL I remember Leon, Jackie, I remember Mary Mini, I remember David, I remember Moses, Jabu. CHAIRPERSON How many were you supposed to gather at that party? MR McCASKILL The people who frequented my ... CHAIRPERSON How many people? MR McCASKILL It was plus minus ten people. CHAIRPERSON You've given me six names already, can you remember anybody else? MR McCASKILL I have really forgotten the others' names. CHAIRPERSON Was Teddy amongst them? MR McCASKILL Yes, it was Teddy as well. CHAIRPERSON Did you invite Teddy? MR McCASKILL Yes he was there and as I have found out, he was also killed that evening. CHAIRPERSON Sizwe? MR McCASKILL He was out of the country. CHAIRPERSON So from the ten, you can only recall seven names? MR McCASKILL That is correct. CHAIRPERSON Did you indeed invite them to this party? MR McCASKILL Yes, they were. CHAIRPERSON Some of these people that you have mentioned here, who was killed in your house? MR McCASKILL That I can recall is Teddy, that was killed in my house, it's Teddy, Mary Mini and David. David, as I understood it, he was only injured as I heard. CHAIRPERSON Moses? MR McCASKILL He was not there at the time. CHAIRPERSON Did he not attend the party? MR McCASKILL When the people attacked the party, he had already left, or something like that, as I understood it. CHAIRPERSON Jabu? MR McCASKILL We didn't get Jabu because we went looking for him the whole afternoon, me and Mary Mini. CHAIRPERSON And now do you know who was killed in your house MR McCASKILL I only recall Teddy and Mary Mini. CHAIRPERSON Who was found there dead? MR McCASKILL It would appear that seven were dead there. There was a guy by the name of Themba and the other coloured man, I didn't know his name. That is the one that I had to take to Bloemfontein along with Leon. CHAIRPERSON And who else? MR McCASKILL That's all that I can recall. CHAIRPERSON Teddy and Mary? So who's Themba? You say you didn't know him, or did you know him? MR McCASKILL I knew him, but I did not invite him, but he arrived there. The time that I was talking to Leon and the others with regard to the trip to Bloemfontein he was also present and it may have been there where he heard about the party, but he was not actually invited. CHAIRPERSON You didn't ask him to leave? MR McCASKILL No, I didn't. CHAIRPERSON Why not? MR McCASKILL Because he was an ANC member. CHAIRPERSON How do you know that? MR McCASKILL I knew him, as I have said. CHAIRPERSON So he was not on the list of people whom you were asked to invite to the party? MR McCASKILL The people who were on the list were persons that I could say I knew, it would be easier to get them to the party. CHAIRPERSON Unless I misunderstand you once again, were you not given names and told that "Listen here, make sure that these people are at the party"? MR McCASKILL Not specifically. I was not given any specific names, I was only given the names, we talked about these people, it was about the people who I could find easier, that's all, not specifically that you have to bring that one, but Leon and Queenie and Mary Mini, I was told those names specifically, that I can recall the best. CHAIRPERSON You know Sir when I started asking you questions, I asked you who were the persons whom you were told to invite and you said there were approximately ten and you can only recall seven and the names of the people I'd given and now you are saying you were only given two specific names, so what is the truth now? MR McCASKILL I was only told about Mary Mini and the others, they didn't worry about, they didn't care who it was as long as it was ANC members. CHAIRPERSON So this list of seven from approximately ten, how did you answer that? MR McCASKILL Because there were ten people at the party before I left the last time. CHAIRPERSON No, my question was who were you told to invite to the party and you said these seven. Can you recall? Approximately ten people. MR McCASKILL I probably did not understand the question properly. I can specifically recall that they told me about Leon and Mary Mini and Jackie. JUDGE KHAMPEPE Did they not identify people for you to invite from the photo album? I understood your evidence to crisply say, the people you invited were as a result of identification by the Security Police from the photo album and that's how you came up with the ten people who were invited. MR McCASKILL As we looked through, the people who usually visited my house, but there were no people whom I did not have much contact with that is what I am trying to explain. JUDGE KHAMPEPE the number, the group of people you were supposed to invite was as a result of the identification made by the police from the photo album. MR McCASKILL No, it was not actually the case, their thing was the more the better as I understood it. JUDGE KHAMPEPE That's not how I understood your earlier evidence. MR McCASKILL But that is how it actually was with them, the more people I could get there the better. JUDGE KHAMPEPE So it didn't matter who it was as long as it was an ANC person? That person was welcome to be there and you knew that the person would be killed at the end of the day. MR McCASKILL That's correct yes. JUDGE KHAMPEPE What then did you understand by the Leon Meyer group? Did you understand every ANC person in Lesotho to belong to the so-called Meyer group? MR McCASKILL No, I never said that I knew of a Leon Meyer group, as they referred to it, so I take it the Leon Meyer group, the people must have said that people who were with Leon Meyer, not to say that there was a specific group that was called the Leon Meyer group. JUDGE KHAMPEPE Were these ten people persons who frequently were in the company of Mr Meyer? MR McCASKILL And myself. JUDGE KHAMPEPE And yourself? MR McCASKILL Yes. CHAIRPERSON Do you know, Mr McCaskill, I find it very difficult to understand you evidence. I'm being honest and I want to put something to you that you are changing your evidence and you are saying that you misunderstand questions every time when you are driven into a corner. Firstly, would you like to deal with that first? Do you want to or don't you want to? MR McCASKILL I'm trying to answer the way I recall, but I'm not trying to hide anything. CHAIRPERSON You see, most of your evidence actually I was under the impression that you were given a list, whether it was written or not I do not know, or whether it was pointed out to you in photo albums, I do not know, but you knew which specific people had to be at that party and furthermore, when you went to have a look whether there were people there, you asked the people who were not supposed to be there to leave. MR McCASKILL When I said that I asked the people to leave who were not supposed to be there, I referred to Lesotho citizens, the persons whom I knew were not ANC members. CHAIRPERSON But now I want to get to this man Themba. Themba was not in the list that you were given first of all, as a person who had to attend that party, is that not so? MR McCASKILL I was not given a list. CHAIRPERSON Or it was pointed out to you in an album. MR McCASKILL I agree he was not invited. CHAIRPERSON Yes. And actually he also had to be asked to leave. MR McCASKILL Yes, but I did not ask him because I knew. CHAIRPERSON Was it not because there would have been R5 000 on his head and that is why you did not ask him to leave? MR McCASKILL No, it's not the case, it was told to me that the more ANC persons, I was not specifically told this one and that one. CHAIRPERSON And the more ANC people there were, the greater the amount of money you would have received. MR McCASKILL Yes. CHAIRPERSON Is that so? MR McCASKILL Yes. CHAIRPERSON And that is why Themba was not asked to leave. MR McCASKILL I shall accept it as such. CHAIRPERSON Yes, the money was attractive, is that not so? MR McCASKILL I shall accept that. CHAIRPERSON Tell me, did you know that people, during the Christmas time would return to South Africa? MR McCASKILL No, not before the time that Leon asked me to take him through. CHAIRPERSON When was that? MR McCASKILL On the same day of the attack. CHAIRPERSON Did you know what they were going to do in South Africa? MR McCASKILL No. CHAIRPERSON Did Mr de Kock not tell you? MR McCASKILL No. CHAIRPERSON Did you ever find out what they were going to do in South Africa? MR McCASKILL I just took it that Leon was from the Cape province and maybe he wanted to go to his family, that is what I thought, I did not know that they would do something. That is what I thought to myself. CHAIRPERSON He asked you to take him to Bloemfontein? MR McCASKILL Yes, to the station. CHAIRPERSON And you drew the inference that he would go to Cape Town to his family? MR McCASKILL Yes. CHAIRPERSON Is that how it worked? MR McCASKILL I thought he would just go and visit them, I didn't know he would go and do other things. CHAIRPERSON Yes, thank you. You are excused. WITNESS EXCUSED CHAIRPERSON Is there any other evidence besides ...(indistinct)? Nothing? Mr Joubert do you have any further witnesses? MR JOUBERT Chairperson no, I would just like to hear, is Mr McCaskill excused from any other attendance because he has business commitments. CHAIRPERSON Yes. Mr Berger, how many witnesses have you got? MR BERGER Chairperson, I have essentially ten people who are going to make statements, it's not going to be evidence. I've explained to them that if they do not take the oath, their statement will not have the weight of any evidence and they understand that, so I don't anticipate that they will take very long. But Chairperson, before we adjourn, can I just ask in relation to Mr Coetser, you mentioned yesterday that the Committee has taken a decision that he is a necessary witness and that the Attorney-General is going to be informed accordingly. I just wanted to ask the Committee, in terms of Section 30(1) of the Act particularly, well section 30(1) says that "a person who has been subpoenaed shall be compelled to answer any question" and then (2) says: "a person referred to in (1) shall only be compelled to answer a question if the Commission has issued an order to that effect after the Commission has (a) consulted the Attorney-General, (b) satisfied itself as to certain requirements and (c) satisfied itself again as to certain requirements." Has the Committee, I know that we've already been told that the Attorney-General has been consulted, has the Committee made the findings in terms of (2) (b) and (2) (c) and was - well because ... CHAIRPERSON 2(c), in terms of (2)(c) his representative indicated that he was not willing to testify. MR BERGER Yes. CHAIRPERSON And he was aware of the consequences of that. MR BERGER Yes. (2)(b) is that "to require him to answer the question is reasonable, necessary and justifiable in an open and democratic society based on freedom and equality" CHAIRPERSON That justifies the subpoena, but carry on, I'll listen to you. MR BERGER Because yesterday you said that the Committee is satisfied that he's a necessary witness and I see the word necessary, but I'm not sure whether it's clear from your ruling whether you are satisfied. CHAIRPERSON Well if it's quite necessary, you must read in reasonable and justifiable. MR BERGER Chairperson, the only point I'm making is that, has the Committee now come to a decision that (a), (b) and (c) have been satisfied and that therefore Mr Coetser is obliged to answer a question which he has now refused to answer and therefore it's being referred? That is now the position. Thank you. CHAIRPERSON Why? Is there any problem that you have with that, or you just wanted to clarify? MR BERGER No, Chairperson, because as I said, yesterday your ruling was that you find Mr Coetser to be a necessary witness and I wasn't ... CHAIRPERSON He's transgressed this section and therefore we've referred it to the Attorney-General for him to decide and deal with it as we expect him to do. MR BERGER Thank you Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON We'll adjourn for your witnesses to half-past nine tomorrow. Mr Berger do you think we'll be finished tomorrow? MR BERGER With the statements? With the evidence? CHAIRPERSON Well with evidence, yes. MR BERGER Yes, not with argument. CHAIRPERSON No, we're going to adjourn to the 25th. MR BERGER 26th. CHAIRPERSON The 26th. I'm not too sure, I think that Monday is a holiday. MR BERGER That's the 25th. CHAIRPERSON So we'll adjourn till the 26th for argument. MR BERGER Yes. CHAIRPERSON Is one and a half days enough? I'll depend largely on your written argument. I would imagine at worst we're going to sit here one and a half days for argument. MR BERGER Two days, I would have thought. I wouldn't make bookings for after lunch on the second day. CHAIRPERSON When should bookings be made for, after supper? MR BERGER After supper. CHAIRPERSON Okay. You're pushing it Mr Berger. I've been told in the past that people have to sing for their supper, but this is ... Anyway we'll adjourn till 10 a.m. tomorrow. Is that suitable to everybody? COMMITTEE ADJOURNS