amntrans AMNESTY HEARINGS 2000-09-11 JOHANNESBURG 1 PETRUS LODEWIKUS DU TOIT AM4131/96 https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=54474&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/2000/200911jb.htm JUDGE DE JAGER Your full names, General? PETRUS LODEWIKUS DU TOIT (sworn states) EXAMINATION BY MR VISSER Mr du Toit, you are also an applicant in this matter. You have made an affidavit which is served in front of this Committee as Exhibit C. You also completed a written application that was submitted and it appears in bundle 1, from page 42 to 52. MR DU TOIT That is correct, yes. MR VISSER Do you confirm the contents of your written application as well as the contents of Exhibit C, serving in front of the Committee now? MR DU TOIT Yes. MR VISSER You also have Exhibit A, the general background to the amnesty applications, did you go through that and are you able to confirm it as the truth? MR DU TOIT Yes, I do confirm it. MR VISSER You also previously applied for an amendment to the amnesty application on page 43, paragraph 7(a) and (b), so that 7(a) reads "National Party" and 7(b) "Supporter", is that correct. MR DU TOIT That is correct, yes. MR VISSER You apply for amnesty for the same incident as Gen Erasmus. We are not going to go through it again, it's exactly the same. MR DU TOIT Yes, that is correct. MR VISSER At this stage in 1988, were you then indeed the second-in-command of the Security Branch here in Johannesburg? MR DU TOIT Yes, Mr Chairperson, I had the rank of Colonel. MR VISSER You've got a very short statement, can you just inform the Committee, from paragraph 3, about your recollection of this incident. MR DU TOIT "This incident took place as far as I can recall, on or approximately the 22nd of September 1988 at the Why Not Club in Hillbrow, Johannesburg. I recall that on that same day I attended the explosion scene. Capt Zeelie as the explosives expert and other members of the Security Branch, as well as the investigative personnel were also present." MR VISSER You'd also then like to add additional facts to this statement, can you just tell the Committee, your statement was very cryptic, what was the reason for this? This is now your amnesty statement or application. You deal with it in paragraph 6, is that correct? MR DU TOIT Yes. The reason why my amnesty application is not quite complete is because of the fact that when I submitted it with various factor, there was not a lot of time available for the cut-off date and because of the fact that I did not have the advantage of documents or any versions of other members of the Security Branch who were involved in this incident. MR VISSER You also then said that it happened a long time ago and you say that you would like to supplement your application. MR DU TOIT Yes. MR VISSER And after you submitted your application you had the opportunity to read the applications of other applicants and you also looked at the bundles or documents from the TRC, which was made available by them, and you also went through all of them and you were then able to test your recollection memory. MR DU TOIT That is correct. MR VISSER Can you just read then from paragraph 10. MR DU TOIT "It is my recollection that I knew beforehand that they were looking for, on instruction of Gen Erasmus, a suitable gathering point of ANC people to plan a possible explosion. Although I cannot recall it very clearly, I know that I would have told Gen Erasmus about it. I however did not know beforehand that it would be the Why Not Club that would be targeted. As far as I can recall it was the following day that Gen Erasmus, then a Brigadier, told to me that an explosion took place at the Why Not Club and was done by Zeelie and others and I then for the first time I knew for definite what happened. I was not present at the scene of the explosion at the Vanderbijl Square and I was also not present at any other place where Gen Erasmus spoke to Capt Zeelie about a possibility to organise an explosion at a gathering place of ANC members. I deny that I ..." ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON Sorry, just before you proceed there, you say that "as far as I can recall", paragraph 10 "It is my recollection that I knew beforehand that they were looking for, on the instructions of Gen Erasmus, to a suitable place" Now you are saying that you did not speak to Gen Erasmus before the incident, so where did you get information about the incident? MR DU TOIT Mr Chairperson, as far as I can recall, it could have only been Gen Erasmus who told me about it. CHAIRPERSON So when would that have been? You weren't at Vanderbijl "Plein" and you knew that they were looking for a target before it happened. MR DU TOIT No, I was not at Vanderbijl "Plein", so how would you have known that they were looking for a target to blow up? MR DU TOIT I had to be that afternoon after the explosion at Vanderbijl "Plein" that Gen Erasmus informed me about it. I cannot specifically recall where and when. MR VISSER That is paragraph 11, Chairperson. Perhaps it's my fault, the confusion, perhaps I should make it clearer. In the statement of Mr Zeelie, he said that you were present at a club that he refers to as the SAB club in Denver, where he was called to by Gen Erasmus and where this whole question surrounding the counter-attack on a place where ANC people gathered ... Do you know anything about that? MR DU TOIT Mr Chairperson, no, as far as I can recall I was not present at such a bar where something like this happened, I also wasn't present where Gen Erasmus spoke to Capt Zeelie about it. MR VISSER According to Zeelie he spoke to Zeelie about it on the scene at the Vanderbijl "Plein" bus terminus, or in that area, and you also say you were not present there? MR DU TOIT I wasn't. MR VISSER You did not visit that scene at all? MR DU TOIT No, as far as I can recall I wasn't there at all. MR VISSER Then you were at paragraph 13 where you now deal with the allegation of Mr Brood van Heerden, can you just inform us about that? JUDGE DE JAGER Before you get to that, did you and Gen Erasmus, during that time, discuss what you had to do about bomb plantings, attacks and what counter-measures you had to take and what the police had to do in such circumstances? MR DU TOIT That is correct, Mr Chairperson, we had various meetings about strategies and investigations. JUDGE DE JAGER Was it ever discussed, as far as you can recall, that concerning the bomb explosions, that you had to counter with bomb attacks? MR DU TOIT No, Mr Chairperson, it was not discussed with me. JUDGE DE JAGER Then why do you then say in paragraph 10 you were aware of it, that Gen Erasmus gave somebody instructions? MR DU TOIT I was aware of that, but that was not discussed with me beforehand. MR VISSER General, Judge de Jager's question also goes a little bit further, was it a general practice that you would legally explode bombs at places where ANC people gathered, or where you thought they came together? MR DU TOIT No, Mr Chairperson. MR VISSER Was this an exception to the rule in your experience? MR DU TOIT Yes, Mr Chairperson. MR VISSER So you did not have general discussions about counter-attacks? MR DU TOIT No, Mr Chairperson. MR VISSER But your recollection as far as I can understand you, you were aware that Gen Erasmus - this was now before the explosion at the Why Not Club, that he was thinking about it at that stage. MR DU TOIT Yes. MR VISSER Mr Brood van Heerden says that at that scene at the Why Not Club, you were present. MR DU TOIT Yes, I was at the scene. MR VISSER And you went to go and attend the scene as a senior officer and he then said that you told him to remain in the vehicle so that he will not be identified and that he had to grow a beard, to grow a beard or put a beard on to disguise himself. Did this happen? MR DU TOIT No, Mr Chairperson, I cannot recall something like that at all. MR VISSER That day when you were at the Why Not Club, did you then know that it was the, this was the case that Gen Erasmus had in mind, in that it was indeed an action of members of the Security Branch? MR DU TOIT I did not have the facts but I had a suspicion. MR VISSER Would you have known that van Heerden was involved, if it was such an action? MR DU TOIT No, I wouldn't. CHAIRPERSON Was Mr van Heerden at the scene when you were there? MR DU TOIT I cannot recall, there were various security members at the scene. MR VISSER Was Capt Zeelie there? MR DU TOIT Yes, I can recall that he was there. MR VISSER You can recall him. And in bundle 2, there's a reference to diverse people who were there. MR DU TOIT Yes, that is correct. MR VISSER Incidentally, Chairperson, I would have mentioned that in argument, but I couldn't find any reference to Mr van Heerden, and the reason why I mention that now is - perhaps his legal representative can point out if I'm making a mistake, as a person who was on the scene. I think then you dealt with paragraphs 13 and 14. When you now heard the next day - Gen Erasmus says it's the 23rd, but he said it was a mistake, it was the 22nd, that this explosion took place on the evening of the 21st/22nd. MR DU TOIT That's correct, Chairperson. MR VISSER And if he refers to the next day it would then be the morning of the 22nd? MR DU TOIT That is correct, yes. MR VISSER Did you then indeed realise what was going on and that it was the police who were responsible for this explosion? And by name, Capt Zeelie? MR DU TOIT That's correct, Chairperson. MR VISSER Did you associate yourself with the action, did you approve it? MR DU TOIT Yes. MR VISSER Did you also think as Gen Erasmus, that it would have the effect that you wanted, that it would lessen bomb attacks and bomb explosions? MR DU TOIT Yes, I thought so. MR VISSER (You then say in paragraph 15 that you believed that the enemy had to be shown that they could not just continue as they liked, that they should also be made to feel, is that correct?) ...(transcriber's interpretation) MR DU TOIT That's correct, Chairperson. MR VISSER Was that the reason why you approved this action? MR DU TOIT Yes, Mr Chairperson. MR VISSER Did you reveal the true facts to anybody as you got to know about it on the 22nd of September? MR DU TOIT No, Mr Chairperson. MR VISSER When you refer in paragraph 16 to instructions in your amnesty application that you received from Brig Erasmus, just in case there's some misunderstanding concerning this, you say that you there refer in general to it, because you were second-in-command and not that you had a specific instruction concerning the Why Not Club. MR DU TOIT No, Mr Chairperson. MR VISSER Can you just go to page 5. And in so many words you basically said the same as Gen Erasmus, and do you also confirm the contents of this page, about what your motivation was and how you executed your instructions during that time? MR DU TOIT Yes, I do Mr Chairperson. MR VISSER And do you then also ask for amnesty for any unlawful acts or delicts that may have been committed by you concerning this explosion, as well as damaging of property, as well as breaking of the Explosives Act, and any other delicts that may come from this? MR DU TOIT Correct. MR VISSER Thank you, Chairperson. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VISSER MR DU TOIT That's correct. CHAIRPERSON Thank you, Mr Visser. General, just before I ask Mr Rossouw, had you prior to going to the scene of the explosion, ever heard of the Why Not Bar, ever heard of it being a place where persons who were suspected of being ANC supporters, went to? MR DU TOIT No, Mr Chairperson, I had no knowledge of the Why Not Club or what went on there. CHAIRPERSON Did you - when I say you, as a senior member of the Witwatersrand Security Branch, have knowledge of places where ANC supporters would visit? Hotspots? MR DU TOIT Not specifically, Mr Chairman, meetings were held and we were aware of those places, yes. CHAIRPERSON Because it would seem just from the evidence, that from the discussion at Vanderbjilpark until the explosion, there couldn't have been any actual reconnaissance of the Why Not Club to establish that we've been there and that is a place where ANC supporters go, because it probably closed in the afternoon, for starters, and then the operation happens that very same evening, so any information that Capt Zeelie and van Heerden had must have been prior information, they couldn't have gone out and established that afternoon themselves with their own eyes, do you agree? MR DU TOIT Yes, I would agree with you, Mr Chairperson, but if they had such information it was not conveyed to me. I don't not know about Gen Erasmus, but not to me. CHAIRPERSON Mr Rossouw, any questions? CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR ROSSOUW Thank you, Chairperson. General, concerning that last point, can you recall if there was an investigation concerning the Cafe Zurich explosion? MR DU TOIT Yes, I do know about it. MR ROSSOUW And did you visit that scene, the Cafe Zurich scene? MR DU TOIT Yes, I was at that scene. MR ROSSOUW Are you aware of the fact that the Why Not Club is right, or opposite the Cafe Zurich? MR DU TOIT No, I was not aware of it during the stage of the explosion. MR ROSSOUW Capt Zeelie says that as a Commander, he would not necessarily know about the contents or the investigation concerning the Cafe Zurich explosion. MR DU TOIT Yes, we were not informed about the details. MR ROSSOUW So the investigative officer or the people who were involved in the investigation, would be the people who knew that the attack was launched by an ANC member from the Why Not Club. Would you have known about that? MR DU TOIT No, Mr Chairperson. MR ROSSOUW Well General, if you go back to the instruction - you also described it as an instruction that Gen Erasmus gave, in paragraph 10 you refer to it, that you knew about it before, with what we have just said and what you have said about your knowledge concerning the Cafe Zurich incident and that the investigative officer would have this information, it would have been your discretion of an operator to then target such a premises or scene. MR DU TOIT I do not know what the instruction of Mr Erasmus was, but I believe that it would have been the operator who would then identify the place. MR ROSSOUW And General, if such a place was identified, would you not expect that the target that was now identified will be discussed with the top structure, they would have motivated it? Would you expect it? MR DU TOIT Yes, I would. MR ROSSOUW Very well. You also heard that I put it to Gen Erasmus that Mr Zeelie will testify that that is what indeed happened. MR DU TOIT I'm not aware of it. MR ROSSOUW His evidence will furthermore be that you were present and that you knew about the specific target, the target that was identified. MR DU TOIT No, Mr Chairperson, I did not know about the target. MR ROSSOUW General, I see that you say that you were not at the bus terminus explosion scene and I will put that to you that Mr Zeelie's evidence will be there that you were present and that you were there when this discussion took place. MR DU TOIT I cannot recall that I was at that scene, and I was not present when Gen Erasmus spoke to Capt Zeelie concerning the target. MR ROSSOUW Very well. I'd just like to then refer you to a statement of Mr van Heerden on page 30, volume 1, the first paragraph. You will see there that he says that at the scene while they were cleaning up, Gen Erasmus and du Toit were present and they mentioned to Zeelie that they had to take action against the ANC. MR DU TOIT Mr Chairperson, I cannot recall that I was present. JUDGE DE JAGER General, you say that you cannot recall that you were present but on a previous question with the same idea, you say that you were not present when the instruction was given. MR DU TOIT I'm sure I was not there when it was given. JUDGE DE JAGER One part you cannot recall, but the second part you're quite certain about it. MR DU TOIT That is correct, yes. MR ROSSOUW Very well, General. In so far as the initial impression goes, I've listened to you and Gen Erasmus, but the initial impression that I got from your amnesty application and Gen Erasmus' application was that there was not a definite instruction given for this operation. I ask you today, if you look at it today with the knowledge that you had before the operation, would you say that an instruction was given by Gen Erasmus? Are you satisfied? MR DU TOIT Yes, I am satisfied that he gave the instruction and I knew him as a person who would do such, or follow the ... MR ROSSOUW Would you say that Mr Zeelie would have gone on a frolic of his own to go and plant this bomb without him having received an instruction? MR DU TOIT No, I do not believe that he would have acted without an instruction. MR ROSSOUW I'm asking you this because this discussion about such bomb attacks was an exception to the rule, it was not something that happened in public or generally. MR DU TOIT I do not think it happened like that, as far as I can recall it was the only instance where it happened. MR ROSSOUW Then General, in conclusion, the place where the alleged discussion took place, I've heard what you said and Mr Zeelie said that it happened at some canteen of the South African Breweries, and you deny that. MR DU TOIT Yes. MR ROSSOUW You say that you were not present. MR DU TOIT As far as I can recall I was not present. MR ROSSOUW General, and then finally, I omitted to ask you the following. I heard you say that the incident took place quite some ago and you state in paragraph 7 of Exhibit B that your recollection of the incident is not that good any longer, but there is something that I would like to take up with you which appears in paragraph 18. You state in your application that you cannot recall whether any persons were injured and that it is only now after your research that your memory regarding this has been refreshed. These officers meetings which took place every morning, did you attend these meetings? MR DU TOIT Yes, usually. MR ROSSOUW Would the injury of persons at such a bomb scene not have been aspect for discussion? MR DU TOIT Usually mention would be made of the number of injuries or injured persons. MR ROSSOUW And this is information that the Security Branch had to send through to Pretoria Head Office, among others? MR DU TOIT That is correct. MR ROSSOUW This will be Mr Zeelie's evidence, that indeed there was a discussion regarding this. Thank you Chairperson, I have nothing further. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR ROSSOUW CHAIRPERSON When you went to the scene that evening, did you see injured people yourself, with your own eyes? MR DU TOIT Chairperson, I was called away from home and I cannot recall that there were more injured persons at the scene. As far as I can recall they had already been removed from the scene. CHAIRPERSON Mr Cornelius, do you have any questions you'd like to ask? CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR CORNELIUS Thank you, Mr Chairperson. Mr du Toit, when the incident occurred you had the rank of Colonel, isn't that correct? MR DU TOIT That is correct. MR CORNELIUS And Mr Zeelie was a Lieutenant, or a Captain? MR DU TOIT I cannot recall his rank at that stage. MR CORNELIUS And my client, Mr van Heerden, was a Constable, can you recall this? MR DU TOIT I cannot recall. MR CORNELIUS When you were at the scene that night did you speak to Mr Zeelie? MR DU TOIT I believe that I spoke to him, although I cannot recall. MR CORNELIUS Is that when Mr van Heerden's involvement was discussed? MR DU TOIT Could you repeat? MR CORNELIUS Could it be that that was the time when he informed you of Mr van Heerden's involvement? MR DU TOIT It may be so, but I cannot recall. MR CORNELIUS You see because Mr van Heerden maintains that you spoke to him that night, that you told him to remain seated in the vehicle, as he sets out very thoroughly on page 30 of his application. MR DU TOIT I cannot recall that I had a discussion with Mr van Heerden. MR CORNELIUS I know this is a long time ago, but is it possible? MR DU TOIT It is possible. MR CORNELIUS I have no further questions. CHAIRPERSON Sorry, if it's possible, why do you say that you don't think it happened and you didn't see him at the scene? I got the impression when you were giving your evidence-in-chief that you denied that you told Mr van Heerden to put on a beard and to stay in the car in case he's identified, now you say it's possible. MR DU TOIT It is possible that I spoke to him, but I cannot recall that I said anything to him regarding a disguise or a beard or anything like that. Usually there were many people on such a scene and the first person that one would speak to would be the demolitions expert, who in this case was Capt Zeelie, and subsequently it would be a question of co-ordination, one would speak to the leader of the investigative team, but whether anything was said to him, I cannot recall. CHAIRPERSON Can you think of any reason why Mr van Heerden should make up a story that you said, "Look stay in the car in case you're identified and you better grow a beard in case you're put before an identification parade"? If that didn't happen, why should he say that? Can you think of any reason? MR DU TOIT I cannot think of any reason. MR CORNELIUS Only one more question, thank you Mr Chair. Did you know that Capt Zeelie was wearing a wig that night? MR DU TOIT No, I didn't. CHAIRPERSON Capt Zeelie if one looks at him is, I don't know how he was in 1988, but as of now he's obviously bald, when you saw him at the scene what was he wearing, a cap or ...? MR DU TOIT No, Chairperson, he looked the way he looks now. CHAIRPERSON So he didn't have a wig on? MR DU TOIT That is correct. JUDGE DE JAGER Mr Cornelius, when did he wear the cap, when he placed the bomb or afterwards when he came to investigate the scene as a policeman? MR CORNELIUS With the placement of the bomb. JUDGE DE JAGER And when du Toit found him there while he was busy with the investigation, was he still wearing the cap? MR CORNELIUS I would have to take instruction on that. It is my instruction that he was not wearing a cap at that point. JUDGE DE JAGER You see it's confusing because you have distinguished in your cross-examination. MR CORNELIUS Then I will put it more clearly. When you spoke to Mr Zeelie that night, did he tell you that he had been disguised when the bomb had been placed? MR DU TOIT No, Chairperson, not as far as I can recall. MR CORNELIUS Thank you, Mr Chair. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR CORNELIUS CHAIRPERSON Mr Nyawuza, do you have any questions you'd like to put? CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR NYAWUZA Yes I do, Chairperson. Mr du Toit, when you visited the scene after the bomb at the Why Not Club, were you aware of people that were involved in it? That were involved in the bombing of the Why Not Club? MR DU TOIT I was not aware. As I have testified, I had my suspicions. MR NYAWUZA And during your time at the scene, were you made aware to the people that were involved? MR DU TOIT No, Chairperson. MR NYAWUZA So will I be correct if I say there's absolutely no way that you could have told Mr van Heerden to grow a beard, because you didn't that he was involved? MR DU TOIT No, I didn't know, Chairperson. MR NYAWUZA My question is, would I be correct in saying you wouldn't have said to him he must grow a bear so that he should not be identified at an ID parade? MR DU TOIT I've already stated that I did not issue such an instruction to him. MR NYAWUZA Your amnesty application, does it relate to your knowledge of these instructions having been given? Are you applying for having kept mum of the incident? MR DU TOIT I don't understand. MR NYAWUZA I'm saying your application, is it in relation to you having defeated the ends of justice by keeping mum on the incident? MR DU TOIT That is correct. MR NYAWUZA No further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR NYAWUZA CHAIRPERSON Thank you, Mr Nyawuza. Ms Coleridge? MS COLERIDGE When did you find out that the Security Force was responsible for the bomb blast? MR DU TOIT On the following day I was practically aware that the Security Branch had been responsible. MS COLERIDGE And how did you become aware of this? MR DU TOIT I cannot recall specifically, but the only person who would have told me would have been Gen Erasmus. MS COLERIDGE And where would he tell you this, at his officer or ... do you have any recollection? MR DU TOIT Yes, our offices were next to each other and we communicated freely with each other and I believe that it took place that morning. MS COLERIDGE And did you see Mr Zeelie or Mr van Heerden in Gen Erasmus' office? MR DU TOIT I cannot recall seeing them there. MS COLERIDGE And were you also present at the officers meeting that morning? MR DU TOIT I would usually be present. MS COLERIDGE But obviously the specifics of this case wasn't discussed there, is that right? MR DU TOIT The evidence is that it was discussed, I can recall that it was discussed, but not the instruction and so forth. MS COLERIDGE Was it discussed that the Security Force branch was responsible for the bomb? MR DU TOIT No, it was only feedback regarding the explosion itself. CHAIRPERSON So an officer who was totally unaware of it, Oosthuizen or Van Wyk, one of the others, as far as he was concerned he would have thought that that bomb explosion was carried out, probably, by ANC or some other ... MR DU TOIT That is correct, Chairperson. MS COLERIDGE And then just my last question following on Mr Nyawuza's question, are you applying just for defeating the ends of justice? For amnesty. MR VISSER But Chairperson, I thought that the evidence was very clear. CHAIRPERSON: He answered - I think it's a fair question, because he answered Mr Nyawuza's question, Mr Nyawuza said: "What are you applying for?" and he said: "For keeping mum about the incident." MR VISSER I listened very carefully, with great respect, the question is "Are you applying for defeating the ends of justice?" and inter alia yes, Chairperson, but that's not the question put now. CHAIRPERSON Well maybe she can follow it up, ask what's being applied for. MS COLERIDGE Can you specifically tell us what you're applying for amnesty for? MR DU TOIT For defeating the ends justice, Chairperson, malicious damage to property, attempted murder, assault of unknown persons. MS COLERIDGE Chairperson, just in relation to that, it just ... But General, you're saying that you didn't conspire with Zeelie, you were not part of the planning of this operation, you never gave any orders for this operation, is that correct? MR DU TOIT Yes, that is correct. MS COLERIDGE So then all that you're guilty of, one would say, is just the obstruction of justice, defeating the ends of justice, because you knew of this incident, you knew that the Security Branch was responsible for it, but you didn't do anything about it. Is that correct? MR DU TOIT Yes, that is correct, I associated myself with the instruction and/or other events emanating therefrom. ADV SIGODI How could you associate yourself with the instructions? How did you do that? MR DU TOIT Could you repeat please. ADV SIGODI I say, if you say you associated yourself with the instruction, how did you do that? MR DU TOIT Could you please repeat the question, I could not hear you. ADV SIGODI I said, if you say that you associated yourself with the instruction and if you were not part of the conspiracy, how did you do that, how did you associate yourself with that instruction if you're not part of it? MR DU TOIT Chairperson, I was second-in-command and I had experience of what was going on in the country at that stage, particularly in our division, and that is why as second-in-command and as a senior officer, I associated myself with the instructions that were issued. ADV SIGODI But you were not part of the conspiracy, were you? MR DU TOIT I wasn't part of the planning. ADV SIGODI You were not aware of it? MR DU TOIT At the point of issue I was not aware of it, but subsequently I was aware of it. ADV SIGODI Yes, but you were asked when did you become aware of it. MR DU TOIT In reality, I only received the factual information the following morning after the explosion. ADV SIGODI Yes, but you were not part of - maybe this will be a matter for your counsel to argue, but if you were not part of the conspiracy, you did not know about the planning and this was a secret operation, now how do you consider yourself to have been part of a conspiracy which you knew absolutely nothing of until afterwards? MR DU TOIT As I have already testified, I became aware of the fact that Gen Erasmus had issued such an order the following day. ADV SIGODI But insofar as your application for amnesty is concerned, all that you could possibly be guilty of would be the concealing of that fact when you should have reported it and that would be defeating the ends of justice, wouldn't it? MR DU TOIT Yes, that is correct. MR VISSER ... deal with that incidentally, and we'll have to argue that, it's a matter of argument. CHAIRPERSON I think we can deal with this in argument. ADV SIGODI Okay. MS COLERIDGE I've got no further questions, thank you Chairperson. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS COLERIDGE CHAIRPERSON Mr Visser, any re-examination? MR VISSER None, thank you Chairperson. NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR VISSER CHAIRPERSON Judge de Jager, any questions? JUDGE DE JAGER You state that you were called from home to the scene at the Why Not. MR DU TOIT Correct. JUDGE DE JAGER How far is your home from the scene? MR DU TOIT At that stage I was living in Alberton. JUDGE DE JAGER And how far is that approximately? MR DU TOIT I would say approximately 14 kilometres. JUDGE DE JAGER Thank you. CHAIRPERSON Adv Sigodi, any questions? ADV SIGODI I've got no questions. CHAIRPERSON General, this canteen, this place at the breweries in Denver, did you used to frequent that at that period of time? MR DU TOIT No, Chairperson, we did not visit there regularly, as far as I can recall we had been there once or twice upon an invitation over a meal time, a meal or a barbecue, but we didn't visit that place frequently. CHAIRPERSON And when you say you went there, would that have included Capt Zeelie and Mr van Heerden, those people? MR DU TOIT The invitations that I had there were usually only for Gen Erasmus and myself. CHAIRPERSON Because Capt Zeelie says that you met at that place, how could he even suggest that if he had never been there, or as far as you know? MR DU TOIT I cannot explain it, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Any questions arising? MR VISSER None, thank you Chairperson. FURTHER CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR NYAWUZA I do, Chairperson, only a few. Mr du Toit, in a question that you were asked by Judge de Jager as to how far were you there from the Why Not Club, you stated that it's about 14 kilometres, so how long in minutes or hours would it take you to drive from Alberton to the Why Not Club? MR DU TOIT I would say 20 minutes to a half an hour. MR NYAWUZA 20 to 30 minutes? MR DU TOIT That is correct. MR NYAWUZA And how long after the incident had taken place were you phoned? Perhaps if you know, if you don't know you just say I don't know. MR DU TOIT Chairperson, I cannot recall. The procedure was usually that as soon as such an explosion was reported, the Security Branch duty officer would be notified and he in turn would then notify me and other relevant persons. I cannot recall how long that took. CHAIRPERSON Can you remember at approximately what time you arrived at the scene, or if not, what time you left home? MR DU TOIT I'm sorry Chairperson, I cannot recall that. MR NYAWUZA And when you arrived at the scene I believe you walked into the Why Not Club and looked around, will I be correct in assuming that? MR DU TOIT Yes, that is correct. MR NYAWUZA And is it your testimony that when you arrived there no people were injured? Are you saying you didn't know that people were injured? MR DU TOIT No, I was aware of the fact that people had been injured, but I cannot recall whether they were still at the scene. As far as I knew they had been removed by ambulance from the scene. MR NYAWUZA Thank you, no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR NYAWUZA CHAIRPERSON Yes thank you. Thank you General, that concludes your testimony, you may stand down. MR DU TOIT Thank you, Chairperson. WITNESS EXCUSED CHAIRPERSON I see it's 1 o'clock or a couple of minutes before, would this be a convenient time to take - I think it would a convenient time, and then after lunch will Mr Zeelie be testifying? We resume with Mr Zeelie's evidence after lunch. We take the adjournment now, thanks. MS COLERIDGE All rise. COMMITTEE ADJOURNS