amntrans AMNESTY HEARINGS 2000-09-29 PORT ELIZABETH 2 PATRICK MODISE DLONGWANE, FALSE EVIDENCE GIVEN IMPLICATING MR MTATSI PETROL BOMBING OF UDF HOUSES https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=54485&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/2000/200919pe.htm ON RESUMPTION CHAIRPERSON For the purposes of the record, I'm Judge Pillay. I'm going to ask my colleagues and thereafter the various representatives to announce themselves for the purpose of that record. JUDGE POTGIETER My name is Denzil Potgieter. ADV SANDI I am Ntsikilelo Sandi. MR FROST I am Alan Frost, for the applicant. MR NYOKA I'm Pumelo Nyoka for the victims. I represent the victims. MR VAN DER MERWE Thank you Mr Chair. The name is Francois van der Merwe. I'm appearing on behalf of three implicated parties being Roelofse, Niewoudt and Dungatha. CHAIRPERSON Which one, Mr van der Merwe? MR VAN DER MERWE I'm about to find out from the applicant which one I should be appearing for, Mr Chairman, thank you. MS THABETHE Thank you Mr Chair. I'm Thabile Thabethe, the Evidence Leader for the TRC. CHAIRPERSON Mr Frost, before we proceed, I just want to find out certain things from your client. Mr Dlongwane, I understand that you have certain problems with the rest of the week. MR DLONGWANE Yes, it's true. CHAIRPERSON Now I want to tell you that we've been having trouble setting this matter down for a long time and most of those problems have been caused by your unavailability and your non-co-operation. Even yesterday, you refused to come down to Port Elizabeth because you didn't have money to come from Durban. If we continue with this case, this hearing, then you must be here till the end. Now I'm not going to postpone this matter. Either you want to have this hearing and make this application, or you don't want to. Your other commitments, I'm not too sure what it is, but this Commission needs to wind up its business. Do you understand? MR DLONGWANE It's clear. CHAIRPERSON So we will continue now, if you want to carry on with your application, we will start now and we'll sit till the end. Do you understand that? MR DLONGWANE I understand. CHAIRPERSON Mr Frost, are you going to call him to testify? MR FROST I am, Mr Chairman. PATRICK MODISE DLONGWANE (sworn states) MR FROST Mr Chair, this is an application for amnesty in respect of two separate matters, the first and second matter appear on page 1 of the first bundle. The applicant applies for amnesty in respect of instructions that he received from Gideon Niewoudt and Col Roelofse to petrol bomb houses that belonged to the UDF members in Port Elizabeth during the 1980's and the second aspect for which the applicant seeks amnesty is that he gave false evidence incriminating a Mr Zola Mtatsi and others, who were later convicted as a result thereof. CHAIRPERSON In respect of the petrol bombing, how many houses and who did those houses belong to? Who were the occupants of those houses? MR FROST Mr Chair you will see in the second bundle of documents on page 1 thereof, just for ease of reference, the names, under the heading "Missions fulfilled" he petrol bombed the houses of the persons mentioned in A, C, D, E, F and G. CHAIRPERSON Page 1 of Bundle 2? MR FROST Of Bundle 2. Sorry? CHAIRPERSON ...(indistinct - mike not on) MR FROST A, C, D, E, F and G. CHAIRPERSON ...(indistinct - mike not on) MR FROST Those are the houses and the person's houses that the applicant inter alia petrol bombed during that period for which he seeks amnesty. CHAIRPERSON He's not making application for petrol bombing the house which Mr Themba Duse occupied ... (indistinct), that is B and E? MR FROST Mr Chair, he is applying for E. CHAIRPERSON So all but B? MR FROST All but B. CHAIRPERSON He's making application for providing false evidence against Mr Zola Mtatsi and who else? MR FROST Mr Chair he's not specifically aware of all the names. It's in particular Mr Zola Mtatsi. CHAIRPERSON He's asking for amnesty in respect of perjury committed in the criminal matter of Mr Zola Mtatsi, wherein Mr Mtatsi was convicted and sentenced to a term of imprisonment. MR FROST Indeed, Mr Chair, that is indeed his application. CHAIRPERSON Petrol bombing of all those people whom you referred to, what crimes would he have committed there? MR FROST Well Mr Chair, specifically arson, malicious damage to property, those are the two main crimes he would have committed. CHAIRPERSON Did anybody get injured or killed? MR FROST Not as far as he is aware Mr Chair. CHAIRPERSON Wouldn't attempted murder also be involved? MR FROST I would concede that it would be involved. The foreseeability would have been there, Mr Chair. That is all, Mr Chair. EXAMINATION BY MR FROST Now Mr Dlongwane, I first of all want to refer you to the second bundle and the case study thereof that is set out on pages 1, 2 and 3. Can you tell this Committee from where this information originates? MR DLONGWANE Which information are you talking about? MR FROST The information in the second bundle of the case study, study 5. Apparently the information was taken from confession that you would have made some years ago to the members of the African National Congress. MR DLONGWANE Actually, I left the country in 1986 for exile and when I arrived in exile, I joined the African National Congress and I confessed about all what I did inside the country and I was made to write a statement, of which I did and I was locked up in Zambia and from Zambia then I was transferred to Angola and then that is when I was asked to go to Zambia again where I met Jackie Mabusa, the late, who was then a body guard of the late, actually the President of the ANC, Oliver Tambo, where he asked me to confess in front of a video camera and my confession was dubbed and I was told after that there will be an exchange of political prisoners, so that was a promise that I will be released and on the other hand the South African Government has to release one of the MK cadres, one of their neighbour who is in prison, so that's all. MR FROST So the confession that you made at that stage, was that the truth? MR DLONGWANE The confession I made first time when I arrived in the ANC camps was the truth, but because of the beatings and it happened that I even met people who were from Port Elizabeth, then I was implicated and I had to admit. MR FROST And was that the truth? MR DLONGWANE I would say openly, there was the truth and there were lies. CHAIRPERSON Look, did you petrol bomb the house of Mr Sipho ...(indistinct)? MR DLONGWANE Yes, I remember going to Sipho ...(indistinct) house. CHAIRPERSON When did that happen? MR DLONGWANE That was during 1985. CHAIRPERSON Did you petrol bomb the home of Lulu Johnson? MR DLONGWANE Yes, it's true. CHAIRPERSON When did that happen? MR DLONGWANE It was also during 1985. CHAIRPERSON Did you petrol bomb the house of Mr and Mrs Gcina? MR DLONGWANE Yes, it's true. CHAIRPERSON When did that happen? MR DLONGWANE It was also during 1985. CHAIRPERSON Did you petrol bomb the home where Mr Nkuseli Jack was staying? MR DLONGWANE No. CHAIRPERSON Did you petrol attack the house of Mr Buyani Vina? MR DLONGWANE Yes. CHAIRPERSON How? With a petrol bomb? MR DLONGWANE Yes, because I was in a kombi and then Sgt Mbatla Tongatha then threw the petrol bomb. CHAIRPERSON Now did you do it? MR DLONGWANE No, I was in the kombi. CHAIRPERSON I - did you or did you not throw a petrol bomb at the home of Mr Vina? MR DLONGWANE No, I didn't throw a petrol bomb. I was in the kombi and Tongatha threw the petrol bomb. CHAIRPERSON Did you agree with that, that he threw it, or did he do it on his own? MR DLONGWANE I agreed because we were about 5 in the kombi on that evening. CHAIRPERSON Now did you want to agree with him? Did you want to attack Mr Buyani Vina and his house? MR DLONGWANE Actually at that time, it was an opportunity for Tongatha to fulfil the mission. CHAIRPERSON No, I'm talking about you, I'm not talking about Tongatha. MR DLONGWANE Myself at that time, it was not my time to throw the petrol bomb, it was Tongatha's time. CHAIRPERSON No, I know that, but did you want him to throw it? MR DLONGWANE Yes. CHAIRPERSON So you agreed with him that he should throw it? MR DLONGWANE Yes, I agreed. CHAIRPERSON And did you attack with a petrol bomb, the house of Mr Mono Phatela? MR DLONGWANE Yes. CHAIRPERSON When was that? MR DLONGWANE It was also the period of 1985. CHAIRPERSON When did Mbatla Tongatha, with your assistance and approval, throw the petrol bomb at the home of Mr Buyani Vina? MR DLONGWANE All these events took place during the time of 1985. CHAIRPERSON Yes. Now did you falsely testify against Mr Mtatsi? MR DLONGWANE Yes. CHAIRPERSON When did that happen? MR DLONGWANE If I remember well, it was in the period of 1983. CHAIRPERSON Yes, Mr Frost. MR FROST Thank you Chair. Now could you tell us who recruited you first of all, or how did it come about that you were recruited to petrol bomb the houses of these persons? MR DLONGWANE The first time when I started petrol bombing houses, it's when this decision came up from Capt Roelofse and Lieut Niewoudt, when we had a meeting at Sanlam building together with Mbatla Tongatha and including Nene, Stanford Nene. CHAIRPERSON Before you carry on, were you working for the Security Police? MR DLONGWANE Yes, I was working with them. CHAIRPERSON When did that start? MR DLONGWANE It started 1980. CHAIRPERSON 1980. Who was your handler? MR DLONGWANE At that time it was Sgt Mosane and Capt Brown Nkomane and the other Captain called ...(indistinct) CHAIRPERSON So you were part of this group or machinery of the Security Police? MR DLONGWANE Yes. CHAIRPERSON Carry on Mr Frost. MR FROST Now before you were recruited by Capt Roelofse and Niewoudt, were you paid by the Security Police any sum of monies for your duties? MR DLONGWANE Yes. Actually I used to get a monthly salary. MR FROST Did you get anything for the information you would provide? MR DLONGWANE Yes, even if I don't bring information, but month end I have to get a salary. CHAIRPERSON And when you did provide information, did you get extra? MR DLONGWANE Yes. MR FROST Now in the beginning, what were your duties when you were initially recruited? MR DLONGWANE The first time when I was recruited, that was 1980 and my duties were to go to the meetings and attend those meetings and from there then write a report and submit it at Sanlam Building. CHAIRPERSON Which meetings were you to attend?? MR DLONGWANE The meetings of ...(indistinct) Black Civic Organisation and COSAS and ...(indistinct) MR BIZOS Now where did you - did you remain in Port Elizabeth throughout? MR DLONGWANE Yes, I've been in Port Elizabeth until 1983. I left South Africa, I went to Lesotho and also on a mission, then I came back, then I left Port Elizabeth in 1985. MR FROST Now why did you go to Lesotho? MR DLONGWANE Actually I was instructed to go to Lesotho, that was after the raid of 1982, to go and spy on the people who were still living in Lesotho, or I would say openly the survivors. MR FROST Who gave you that instruction? MR DLONGWANE I was given the instruction by Lieut Smuts and W/O Momberg. MR FROST Were you paid? MR DLONGWANE Yes, I was paid when I came back to South Africa. CHAIRPERSON That is over and above your monthly salary? MR DLONGWANE Yes. CHAIRPERSON Is it correct, as I understand your evidence, you were on a basic salary and every time you did give information about those people and organisations you were supposed to spy on, you got extra payment for that information? MR DLONGWANE Yes. CHAIRPERSON Yes, Mr Frost. MR FROST Now when you returned back top South Africa from Lesotho, did anyone give you any further instructions? MR DLONGWANE Yes, I continued working and at that time I worked with Nieuwoudt, and I worked with Roelofse and I also continued working with Tongatha, getting instructions from them. MR FROST While you were getting ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON When did you return from Lesotho? MR DLONGWANE If I remember well, I returned the same year, but I can't remember the month exactly. CHAIRPERSON So this must have been before you committed perjury in the criminal case of Mr Mtatsi? MR DLONGWANE Actually the bus boycott took place after I came back from Lesotho. MR FROST Now when Nieuwoudt and Capt Roelofse gave you instructions, were you still paid a salary? MR DLONGWANE Yes. MR FROST Did the amount remain the same? MR DLONGWANE Yes, it remained the same and sometimes they will give me some extra. CHAIRPERSON When you gave important information? MR DLONGWANE Yes. MR FROST Now you told us that as far as the petrol bombings were concerned, you were instructed by members of the Security Police to undertake these operations, is that correct? MR DLONGWANE Yes. MR FROST And who specifically gave those instructions? MR DLONGWANE I beg your pardon? MR FROST Who specifically gave those instructions? MR DLONGWANE It was Capt Roelofse and Lieut Nieuwoudt. MR FROST And what were the instructions? MR DLONGWANE The instructions were to petrol bomb the houses of the influential people within the organisations mentioned, Zola Mtatsi who was then a Chairperson of COSAS and looking also into people like Buyani Vina, who were also active in the forefront and looking into people like Mrs Gcala, who was also very influential when coming to Women's League or whatever in PEBCO, so those were actual instructions that one has to target the influential people. ADV SANDI Can you just explain this? So you were given specific names of people to target, or were you just told to target influential people? MR DLONGWANE Yes, to tell the honest truth, there was a category whereby there were small fish and the big fish. CHAIRPERSON Forget the big fish and the small fish in the pond, just tell us, give an answer to the question. Were names given to you or was it left to your discretion? MR DLONGWANE No, the names were given to me. CHAIRPERSON Now give us those names that were given to you. MR DLONGWANE First number one, I said from the onset, it was people who were in the forefront, Zola Mtatsi, Mrs Gcala, Lulu Johnson, Buyani Vina, Sipho Hashe. MR VAN DER MERWE Mr Chairman, can he go a little bit slower, I need to make a list of these please. If he's just repeating that, then I'm happy. MR FROST Yes, who else? MR DLONGWANE Actually those were the main people that I was told to ensure that wherever they are then I follow them and then I petrol bomb their houses. MR FROST Now where did you obtain the addresses of those people? MR DLONGWANE I obtained the addresses from the Security Branch. MR FROST When you petrol bombed these particular persons, were you alone on each occasion? MR DLONGWANE No, I was not alone. MR FROST What was the position? Who was with you? MR DLONGWANE It was myself, it was Stanford Nene, it was Tongatha and then there were some other people that I mean today I don't even remember their names. CHAIRPERSON So on each of the occasions that you were party to throwing this petrol bomb on the 6 people's houses that you mentioned, you were with one or two of these other people that you speak about, Tongatha and company, is that correct? MR DLONGWANE Yes, it's correct. MR FROST Now what was the objective as far as you were concerned, in executing the orders of Nieuwoudt and Col Roelofse? MR DLONGWANE The objective was nothing else other than to ensure that we demoralise the masses, as soon as they see their leaders being arrested, being killed and from then, then they would lose their direction and lose hope regarding the continuation of the struggle against ...(indistinct) CHAIRPERSON Did you honestly believe that was going to be the result, even if you killed the people? MR DLONGWANE Because of the way I was recruited and the ideology. CHAIRPERSON Did you believe that? MR DLONGWANE And then that made me to believe. CHAIRPERSON Are you serious? MR DLONGWANE I am serious. MR FROST Now when you were recruited by the Security Police, were you not just recruited as an employee on the basis that you received a monthly salary? MR DLONGWANE Yes, of course, I was actually recruited as an informer and then I was given a code name 446/80 and then that is when now I started to get a fixed salary, which means every month I would get my salary. CHAIRPERSON He's testified Mr Frost that he used to get a basic salary and for information and deeds I think that he committed, he would get a bit extra when and if that happened. That's how I understood his evidence. MR FROST Now ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON That's how I understood it. If you want to take that matter up, you can. MR FROST No, that is indeed so, thank you Chair. Now when you were initially recruited by the Security Branch, was it explained to you what the political objective was to commit these offences, example for petrol bombing the houses of these prominent people? MR DLONGWANE Yes, I have already explained, but I will also enforce my explanation that the way I was recruited, the police, they even portrayed those who were in the forefront as the communist with no future and they even convinced me that even if I joined them, there is nothing that I will achieve in my life. MR FROST And did you believe that? MR DLONGWANE Yes. CHAIRPERSON But as far as you're concerned, what political objective was there in attacking members or high-ranking officials of PEBCO, PACO, COSAS, spying on the African National Congress? What was your political objective? Did you have a problem with those organisation? MR DLONGWANE Personally, since I was recruited, the objective at that time was nothing else, other than to see those organisations going down, to see the masses losing hope, so that was an objective. CHAIRPERSON Why? MR DLONGWANE Those were the instructions. CHAIRPERSON No, why did you want to do it, never mind the instructions. MR DLONGWANE It's because I was given an order to do that and I had to accept the order. CHAIRPERSON Haai man, I'm asking what went through your head. MR DLONGWANE I would say throughout my involvement, in my mind there was nothing else other than to ensure that I do what I'm being told. MR FROST But what objective did you want to see achieved at the end of the day through the work that you'd done, that you did together with the Security Police? MR DLONGWANE Through my activities my objectives I would say, I wanted to ensure that the struggle doesn't continue. CHAIRPERSON Why? MR DLONGWANE It's because the way I was influenced and because of the ideology which was inserted into my mind. CHAIRPERSON Look, this struggle was essentially, if not totally, directed at Apartheid, not so? Correct? MR DLONGWANE Yes, of course, all the political organisations, they were directing their struggle against the Apartheid regime. CHAIRPERSON Ja. now did you not agree with that? Did you not want to see Apartheid abolished? MR DLONGWANE When I grew up I wanted to see Apartheid being demolished, but then because I was recruited and influenced and then I had to betray my people. CHAIRPERSON Oh. And so too, betray all the black people. MR DLONGWANE That is actually what happened in my life. MR FROST Were you made to believe that Apartheid was in fact the better route to follow in life, rather than the route of struggling against it? MR DLONGWANE The way I was taught, that is how I believed, that the Apartheid was a good system. CHAIRPERSON Who's this good teacher? MR DLONGWANE These good teachers were Nkomane and Sgt Mosane, the late. MR FROST Now when did this occur that you, for the first time, or this propaganda was put to you? MR DLONGWANE That was 1980. MR FROST Prior to 1980, you were actually actively involved in the struggle, is that right? MR DLONGWANE Yes. MR FROST And because of this propaganda you, so to speak, climbed onto the other side of the fence? MR DLONGWANE Yes. MR FROST And you say your principles were betrayed by this propaganda? MR DLONGWANE Yes. ADV SANDI Can you just tell us what exactly did these people say to you that made you convinced that the struggle against apartheid should not succeed? MR DLONGWANE The first time when I was arrested, 1980, because of the beatings and the pressure, then that is when the police started to recruit me and they told me that if the Judge can find me guilty, then I will be hanged or sent into Robben Island. In such an extent, they even visited my mother while I was in detention, where they repeatedly asked her to come and talk to me and because of my mother's tears while I was behind the bars and then I had to succumb, then that is when Sgt Mosane and Nkomane, because that time I was in the isolation cell, they decided to take me out from the isolation cell and mix me with the other criminals, then they would come and tell me about the struggle in South Africa which has no future and their organisations that are existing in Port Elizabeth, they are in line with communism and communism was portrayed to me as something like a devil, as a something which really brings down the economy of our country. CHAIRPERSON Tell me, how long were you in custody that time when they ...(intervention) MR DLONGWANE Detention for 6 months. CHAIRPERSON transformed you? MR DLONGWANE It was 6 months. CHAIRPERSON 6 months, hey? And how long were you in this struggle before then, before 1980? MR DLONGWANE 1976. CHAIRPERSON So you were in the organisations for four years. MR DLONGWANE Yes. CHAIRPERSON And it took 6 months for them to change that? MR DLONGWANE Yes. CHAIRPERSON And after that? MR DLONGWANE Then after that, I went out, then I continued working with the police, since I was recruited, until then I left Port Elizabeth, I went to Queenstown and when I came back from Queenstown, I came back with a stolen firearm, 7.65, then unfortunately when I loaded this firearm, it just happened to discharge and I shot mistakenly. CHAIRPERSON Don't tell me you shot yourself in the foot? MR DLONGWANE No, I shot a lady by the name of Nopumelo, who was a girlfriend of my friend. Then I ended up in prison serving 12 months in ...(indistinct) prison in P.E. CHAIRPERSON Now how did it come that you gave evidence against Mr Mtatsi? MR DLONGWANE At that time there was a planned marathon bus boycott and I was also involved in the meeting which took place kwaZakhele. Then I reported everything to Gideon Nieuwoudt and Roelofse and when we planned to meet, I informed Gideon Nieuwoudt, including Roelofse, where are we going to meet and even a time, so we had a meeting, it was on a Sunday and the busses were stoned and then after that we planned that we will be meeting again on a Monday evening. Then during the day on Monday, I went to Sanlam building where Tongatha and Vina, including Nieuwoudt and Roelofse said to me they will be hanging around. Then it did happen that evening the police were there and we were arrested and when we were arrested, that is when Roelofse and Tongatha including Nieuwoudt told me to implicate people like Zola Mtatsi, Kolo Makapela, people who were not there, Zoli Sijasi, there were a lot of them. So then I was asked to be a State Witness and at that time we were four. CHAIRPERSON Okay, just stop there. So you eventually testified against them? MR DLONGWANE Yes. CHAIRPERSON You told lies about them? MR DLONGWANE Yes, I told lies. CHAIRPERSON Now tell me, you said you were arrested and you were forced to - did I hear you correctly, you were forced to testify against them? MR DLONGWANE No, I was not forced, it was my job. CHAIRPERSON It was your job. So it was suggested to you that you testify against them falsely? MR DLONGWANE Even though they were not involved, yes. CHAIRPERSON And you considered that as your job? MR DLONGWANE Yes. CHAIRPERSON How did you get out of the arrest now? You were arrested, isn't it? MR DLONGWANE Yes, I was arrested. CHAIRPERSON Were the charges withdrawn, or what? MR DLONGWANE No, actually I was put behind the bars, not charged, I was not charged. CHAIRPERSON I see. So after you testified you were released from behind the bars? MR DLONGWANE Yes, I was released. CHAIRPERSON And you were still earning your salary? MR DLONGWANE Yes. CHAIRPERSON And after you testified, you got a bit more bonus for testifying? MR DLONGWANE Yes. CHAIRPERSON Okay. Now by that time, did you start this petrol bombing or was that to come after the testimony that you gave? MR DLONGWANE The petrol bombings came after the testimony. CHAIRPERSON Let us go on to the petrol bombing now, who was first? Whose house was first? MR DLONGWANE I would be lying if I can tell you whose house was first and at that time, to tell you the honest truth ... CHAIRPERSON Well, I hope you are telling us the honest truth. Tell me. MR DLONGWANE The aim of the petrol bombing, it was not only also to deal with the influential people, but also to cause a confusion because at that time there was a fight between AZAPO and UDF. CHAIRPERSON Who? By the way, who caused that? Who started that dispute? MR DLONGWANE I do not know, but then the police ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON But you were party to fuelling it? MR DLONGWANE Yes, of course. CHAIRPERSON You took advantage of it? MR DLONGWANE Yes. CHAIRPERSON Now let's start with Sipho ...(indistinct). You went with others to petrol bomb his house after you were told to do so, am I correct. MR DLONGWANE Yes. CHAIRPERSON You were following your orders, it was your job? MR DLONGWANE I was following the orders. CHAIRPERSON Alright. Who told you to do that one? MR DLONGWANE It was Niewoudt, Roelofse and Tongatha and Stanford Mene. CHAIRPERSON Alright. Was it only that house that you bombed that day, or did you do more bombings that same day as you did Sipho Hashe? MR DLONGWANE Yes, it as only that house and from there, then they dropped me in Veeplaas and then they went their own way. CHAIRPERSON Okay. And then when next did you perform a similar activity in bombing a person's house? MR DLONGWANE I will be not able to recall the days and the times. CHAIRPERSON Alright. Is it the next day, or couple of days, or whatever? MR DLONGWANE It was a couple of days. CHAIRPERSON Alright. Then Lulu Johnson's house, who was with you when that occurred? MR DLONGWANE It was the same group. CHAIRPERSON Same group? MR DLONGWANE Yes. CHAIRPERSON And Mr and Mrs Gcina's house? MR DLONGWANE It was myself, Tongatha and Stanford Mene. CHAIRPERSON And Mr Jack's house? Nkuseli Jack? MR DLONGWANE No, I don't remember myself. CHAIRPERSON You don't remember. MR DLONGWANE No. CHAIRPERSON Mr Frost, just maybe I missed ... MR FROST Mr Chair, yes, it was a mistake on my part. I checked my notes. I said all but (b), Jack was in relation to another aspect which isn't relevant to this application. I apologise. CHAIRPERSON He's not applying for an incident involving Mr Jack's house? MR FROST No, he's not, I apologise Mr Chair. CHAIRPERSON Mr Buyani Vina's house? MR DLONGWANE It was myself, Tongatha and Stanford. CHAIRPERSON And Mr Mono Phatela's house? MR DLONGWANE It was myself, Tongatha and Stanford. CHAIRPERSON Now, earlier in your evidence you said it's one of those houses that you personally did not throw this petrol bomb, but you associated yourself with Tongatha doing it, which house was that? MR DLONGWANE That was Buyani Vina's house. CHAIRPERSON Alright. The rest of the people that you mentioned, did you throw the petrol bomb yourself? MR DLONGWANE At Mrs Gcina's house, I never threw the petrol bomb, I was in the kombi. CHAIRPERSON Alright. Did you agree with the person who threw that petrol bomb? MR DLONGWANE Yes. CHAIRPERSON That was part of the whole plan? MR DLONGWANE Yes. CHAIRPERSON So you associated yourself with that as well? MR DLONGWANE Because I was in the kombi, yes. CHAIRPERSON Alright. So you acted as part of a group again? MR DLONGWANE Yes. CHAIRPERSON Now, did all these things happen in one month, or how did it - was it over two months, or three months? I know you can't remember dates, but I'm just trying to establish how close to each other all these petrol bombings occurred. MR DLONGWANE Hence I said I cannot recall. CHAIRPERSON Anyway. Now you're still, I take it, earning your basic salary? MR DLONGWANE When, presently? CHAIRPERSON No, then. MR DLONGWANE At that time, yes. CHAIRPERSON And after these petrol bombings you received an extra bit of bonus for having been party to this? MR DLONGWANE No. CHAIRPERSON You didn't receive? MR DLONGWANE Yes, because at that time I could not attend meetings, I was expelled. CHAIRPERSON Now did you get paid for throwing petrol bombs? MR DLONGWANE Yes. CHAIRPERSON Extra? MR DLONGWANE Not extra. CHAIRPERSON But you were - oh, I see. So you got paid for throwing petrol bombs? MR DLONGWANE Yes. CHAIRPERSON And that was your only activity at that time? MR DLONGWANE Yes. CHAIRPERSON Tell me, you were friends with these people by then, very close friends? MR DLONGWANE I am still even now. CHAIRPERSON Oh. Did you ever, after you became friendly with them, try to leave that kind of work? MR DLONGWANE You say in which period? CHAIRPERSON Anytime after 1980. Was there a time you tried to disassociate yourself with the Security Police? MR DLONGWANE That was 1986. CHAIRPERSON What happened? MR DLONGWANE That time I was in Johannesburg and I was involved with the political organisations. CHAIRPERSON You infiltrated? MR DLONGWANE Yes. CHAIRPERSON Ja. MR DLONGWANE But by listening in to Radio Freedom broadcasted from Tanzania, I had to heed the call of the former president of the ANC, Oliver Tambo, when he said: "Let the enemies, all those who work for the enemies, turn the guns into their bosses" and I had to heed the call from that ... CHAIRPERSON Weren't you confused that time? MR DLONGWANE No. CHAIRPERSON Who were your bosses then and who were you enemies? MR DLONGWANE Because of his speech, I had to make a re-introspection and I had to heed the call, that is how I left South Africa. CHAIRPERSON Okay. Now before then, from 1980 to the end of 1985, you were quite comfortable with the situation, working with the Security Branch and getting paid for what you did? MR DLONGWANE Yes. CHAIRPERSON Why did you never attempt before then to leave them? MR DLONGWANE Regarding that question, I have no answer. CHAIRPERSON Wasn't it a comfortable money making scheme? MR DLONGWANE I've got no answer. CHAIRPERSON Can't you answer it, or are you refusing to answer it? MR DLONGWANE I am not refusing, but I've got no answer for that. CHAIRPERSON So that was your full-time job? Spying and testifying and petrol bombing? MR DLONGWANE Yes. CHAIRPERSON And you knew you will never be prosecuted for that, you had been given guarantees? MR DLONGWANE Yes, even though when I shot a person, then I was convicted while the Security Branch was there. CHAIRPERSON Yes, Mr Frost, any more questions? MR FROST When you testified against Mr Mtatsi, you said it was your job to do so. Did you do so with any political motive? MR DLONGWANE Yes, I had already explained that the motive was to defend the Pretoria regime and to ensure that I witness the political organisations. MR FROST So your testifying against Mr Mtatsi was with the same political objective as that when you petrol bombed the houses of certain prominent members. MR DLONGWANE Yes. MR FROST Now you also that before you went over to Botswana, that you were in the Transvaal. For whom were you working there? MR DLONGWANE I was in the Transvaal in Germiston and I worked with the Security Police also there. MR FROST At that stage were you still comfortable with the political objectives of the Security Police and the Apartheid regime? MR DLONGWANE I was not so much committed because at that time I even had a job at Checkers stores as a merchandiser and also during the weekends, then I would attend meetings. MR FROST Now what brought about the change of heart in the political objectives which you had been fighting for until that stage, together with the Security Police against the fight for freedom? MR DLONGWANE I have already mentioned that I was motivated by the speech of the late Oliver Tambo over the Radio Freedom in Tanzania. MR FROST Was there anything else that changed your mind and made you decide that the political objective in which you believed since 1980 until 1986, was no longer in accordance with what you felt at that stage? MR DLONGWANE Ja, the rate of the struggle, or the way people were taking up the struggle in South Africa, I had to sit down and evaluate myself and I realised I had no future and the contributory factor was, it was the first time in my life, to hear the voice of President Oliver Tambo, who motivated me to leave the country. ADV SANDI Just explain something to me. Would one be correct to say that during the time you were working for the Security Police, that is before you got this speech by Mr Oliver Tambo, you were not really committed to the Security Police, you were just doing this for money, would I be correct to say that? MR DLONGWANE No, when I was in Germiston, that is when I got a job and I lost an interest. ADV SANDI Yes, you got a job and you had no reason now to continue working for the Security Police because you were now able to support yourself with the income you were earning from the job. MR DLONGWANE I had already mentioned that even though I was employed, but Saturdays and Sundays I would go and attend meetings of the political organisations in Germiston, Katlehong and Soweto etc., etc. ADV SANDI You were not as committed as you had been before because you now had an income to make a living from? MR DLONGWANE No, it's not like that. ADV SANDI What then is the position? MR DLONGWANE It's because at that time I had a job and also my girlfriend had a baby and the money that I received from the Security Branch was not enough to take care of the mother of my children and including my baby. ADV SANDI If the money you were earning from your job at this place you say you were working at, if that money was enough for you to do whatever you wanted to do for yourself, to maintain yourself, would you have continued working for the police? MR DLONGWANE To tell you an honest truth, it was so difficult for one to just dump the police at that time and I still continue to say, President Tambo's speech motivated me and I even quit the country without even informing the police. CHAIRPERSON Will you please answer the question. MR DLONGWANE I still repeat, at that time, because actually I had no interest and it was so difficult for me to separate myself because I feared that they might kill me, but the statement of President Oliver Tambo motivated me and I had to leave the country without even informing them. ADV SANDI Because you were not really committed to - would that be because you were not really committed to what you were doing there for them? MR DLONGWANE I regarded myself at that time when I worked with them, as a person who is being employed by them. ADV SANDI You just wanted to have an income basically. MR DLONGWANE There was the political objective and at the very same time, there was the survival of the fittest. ADV SANDI Which of the two came first? MR DLONGWANE It was the political objective. ADV SANDI Not the money? MR DLONGWANE Not the money. ADV SANDI If the police had asked you to do this work for them without paying you, would you have continued working for the police? MR DLONGWANE No I was going to ask them at least to give me something to survive. ADV SANDI And if they refused? MR DLONGWANE Then if they refused, then they refused, then which means I have to find another way. CHAIRPERSON So then you go find another job. MR DLONGWANE Actually if I was not indoctrinated enough, the way they have indoctrinated me. ADV SANDI I understood you to - you also say, if they had refused to pay you for the work you were doing, you would have cut ties with them? MR DLONGWANE If then I was not indoctrinated the way they indoctrinated me, then I was going to cut ties with them. CHAIRPERSON Leave the indoctrination, if they didn't pay you a salary and bonuses, would you have left them? MR DLONGWANE Sir, the indoctrination did play a role. CHAIRPERSON Never mind the indoctrination. We heard that now. If they didn't pay you or were not going to pay you, would you not go look for another job to help your children and the mother of your children live? MR DLONGWANE Actually I committed myself and I betrayed my principles. CHAIRPERSON We know that. I'm asking you a simple question. Had the Security Police not paid you or indicated that they were not going to pay you for your services, would you not have gone to find another job in order to help your children survive, together with the mother of those children, as you put it just now? MR DLONGWANE It was going to be difficult for me, because I feared only one thing, that if I divorce myself and then they might kill me. CHAIRPERSON Did you consider leaving them? MR DLONGWANE I did, since I left South African 1986. CHAIRPERSON No, before then. If they were not going to give you money and pay you for services, did you consider that you would leave them and go look for another job? MR DLONGWANE That never came into my mind. CHAIRPERSON Yes, Mr Frost. ADV SANDI Sorry, sorry Mr Frost. Just explain to me exactly, at what stage did you feel that if you left them, they would have killed you? When was this? MR DLONGWANE It was the period of 1983. ADV SANDI From 1983 up to when? When did you stop having this fear that if you leave them, they will kill you? MR DLONGWANE Actually this developed after I testified against Zola Mtatsi and including the other comrades in court. ADV SANDI So in 1985 when you went around petrol bombing these people's houses, you were still afraid that if you left them they would kill you? MR DLONGWANE Yes. ADV SANDI Thank you. MR FROST Now at the stage when you were recruited, is it correct that you were approximately recruited by the Security Police, you were approximately 17 years of age? MR DLONGWANE When they recruited me, I was 16 years. MR FROST And when you finally left them, how old were you? MR DLONGWANE I left them 1986. MR FROST Approximately 22, 23? MR DLONGWANE Yes. MR FROST Now can you tell us very briefly why have you applied to this Committee for amnesty in respect of the petrol bombings and in respect of the testimony that you, the false testimony that you gave in the trial of Mr Mtatsi? MR DLONGWANE I felt that the time has come where one has to tell the truth and reconcile and to respond into the call which was made by the former State President, Dr Nelson Mandela, regarding the truth and the reconciliation. I felt that the truth will set me free. Since then, in my life, I had no areas where I can be able to visit my friends and the death of my mother 1986, when she was also bombed, bombed and died, it has been haunting me and I approached the Deputy State President Jacob Zuma in Durban and I asked him to forgive me and he asked me to appear here. MR FROST And are you also asking as such forgiveness from the families which you petrol bombed during those years? MR DLONGWANE Yes, I also ask forgiveness even from the families. I know for a fact that I contributed in the death of my own mother. I owe actually my own family ... MR FROST Is there anything else you would like to present to this Committee in evidence, or to the community as a whole? MR DLONGWANE I would like to tell the Committee, including the community, that I was used by the Security Police while I was not enough matured. I found myself involved in the struggle during 1976 and 77. Also the peer pressure contributed, but what has happened in the past, I would like the community, including the families and the Amnesty Committee to forgive me. All what I have done, today what I have benefited, I cannot see, but as I'm talking to you, I contracted HIV and AIDS and I am going to die, I know, but before I die, I would like people to know all my activities and the role that I have done to the people. Through those words I ask forgiveness. MR FROST That is the evidence, Chairman and Members of the Committee. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR FROST CHAIRPERSON Mr Dlongwane, you say you've had a change of heart. MR DLONGWANE Yes. CHAIRPERSON And you decided to come out with the truth and admit to all the wrongs you have done. MR DLONGWANE Yes. CHAIRPERSON When did you make that decision? MR DLONGWANE I made that decision 1996. CHAIRPERSON Do you remember you appeared in front of the Human Rights Violations Committee of this Commission? MR DLONGWANE Yes, I remember. CHAIRPERSON Do you remember you testified there? MR DLONGWANE Yes. CHAIRPERSON Do you remember what you said? MR DLONGWANE Yes, there are things that I still remember. CHAIRPERSON Is it the same that you testified today? MR DLONGWANE Some are not the truth. CHAIRPERSON Ja. At the HRV hearing of this Commission, when did you appear there? MR DLONGWANE 1996. CHAIRPERSON Ja, when you decided you're going to come out with the truth now and admit to the community and ask the community for its forgiveness, and yet you go there and you tell lies. Why? MR DLONGWANE It's because at that time I was still with the Returned Exiles Committee and also with the opposition party to the African National Congress and through their influence, then I had to go to the Truth Commission and implicate the leaders who never even participated in those interrogations. CHAIRPERSON You see I thought you listened to this grand speech on the 8th of January on Radio Freedom in 1986 when you had this change now, this transformation back to the ANC and its structures and yet in 1996 you're still up to your old tricks. What is the position? MR DLONGWANE At that time, we had grievances that we wanted the ANC to address regarding the returned exiles, more especially those who were in the Quatro Camp in Kibashe, in Angola. CHAIRPERSON And you go there to the HRV hearing and you lie about tortures and the leadership of the ANC. MR DLONGWANE Yes. CHAIRPERSON Why? If you're trying to rectify something, why you go lie? MR DLONGWANE It's because I - even at that time when I was elected as a Chairperson, there were people that were behind the Committee to ensure that the ANC doesn't get any votes because this was formed 1991. CHAIRPERSON Were you the Chairman of the exiles Committee? MR DLONGWANE Returned Exiles Committee yes, in South Africa. CHAIRPERSON When was that? MR DLONGWANE That was 1991. CHAIRPERSON It makes sense. Yes, Mr Nyoka. CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR NYOKA Thank you Mr Chairperson. Mr Dlongwane, my instructions are not to oppose the application at this stage until we hear what is going to come out of you. We are going to ask questions. Firstly, I noticed that on the application form, I noticed that every time I read, you've got three different surnames, the first one is Dlongwane, the other one is Hlongwane, the other one is Longwane, which exactly is your exact surname? MR DLONGWANE Dlongwane. MR NYOKA Dlongwane? Because according to the submission by the ANC, your name is Patrick, okay it's correct this one, according to the Motsanyuane Commission, it's Hlongwane and the date of birth, there are three dates of birth here, the 21st of December 1963, according to the current bundle and then according to the ANC submission, it was the 23rd of September 1958, to the Motsanyuane Commission it was the 21st of September 1958. Exactly when were you born? MR DLONGWANE 21st December 1963. MR NYOKA Why was there a difference of about five years? Was that deliberately misleading, or was it a typing error? MR DLONGWANE It was a deliberate misleading. MR NYOKA Why? MR DLONGWANE It was because at that time we were waging war with the ANC. MR NYOKA What had age to do with that? You wanted to appear to be older or what? MR DLONGWANE Actually, if then you look at Pat Hlongwane, that is not me, but I am still being called Pat Hlongwane while I am Patrick Dlongwane and that suited me. MR NYOKA But you are sure now you are Patrick ...(indistinct) Dlongwane, you are not going to change now? MR DLONGWANE No, that's why I have submitted my amnesty application. MR NYOKA Okay, no I just wanted to be sure I'm talking to the right person. ADV SANDI Mr Nyoka, is it Dlongwane, -na or ne? MR NYOKA NA. ADV SANDI Na? But when you completed your application form, you wrote Dlongwane, Ne. MR DLONGWANE I think my lawyer, he made a mistake. ADV SANDI Okay. Thank you. MR NYOKA There are two reasons why you joined the other side, money and you say political somersault. Not so? Indoctrination? MR DLONGWANE Yes, it was indoctrination. MR NYOKA Why you are not being frank, if you want us to forgive you, why are you not being frank and say money was the sole root of your going the other side? Why are you not being frank? Why did you say: "I can't answer that question". Why don't you say, Mr Dlongwane, money was the sole motivating reason? Why don't you say so? MR DLONGWANE I would like to put this very clear. At that stage, to be with the police within them, one had pride of being a policeman. CHAIRPERSON When was that now? MR DLONGWANE The time when I was an informer. CHAIRPERSON 1980? MR DLONGWANE Yes. CHAIRPERSON Where were you living? MR DLONGWANE Here in Port Elizabeth. CHAIRPERSON And you were proud to be with the police? Is that what you say? MR DLONGWANE To me it was a pride. MR NYOKA Mr Dlongwane, ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON Maybe Mr Nyoka, you were justified in asking who you were talking to? MR NYOKA I'm happy about that. If ...(indistinct) when you joined in 1979, when you joined it whether as a member or a supporter, was said to you: "Mr Dlongwane, we are going to pay you every month", surely you would not be here today, not so? MR DLONGWANE Yes, I was going to work for the organisation. MR NYOKA If it was paying you? MR DLONGWANE Even if it was not paying me because I was working for it. MR NYOKA No, I'm saying to you if PEBCO was paying you, you would not have joined the other side, because what you wanted was money. Before you answer that, to make life easier for you, there was a political organisation that was sharing the beliefs of the Security Police called "Kyamnandi" ...(indistinct) an others, why you did not join them and say: "Gentlemen, I share your beliefs but I don't want to join you. Let me rather join Kyamnandi and be a political supporter against communism, etc". Why did you not join Kyamnandi if you were motivated by political beliefs above money? MR DLONGWANE Because at that time, Kyamnandi was not yet formed. MR NYOKA There was a political organisation going along with Ciskei at that stage, 1980, Mr Dlongwane, and that political organisation was sympathetic of the homeland situation. Why did you not join it, whichever name it was? MR DLONGWANE No, the only time when I started to hear about ...(indistinct) that was 1984 to 85, the time when he stayed, because he was living at Veeplaas at that time. MR NYOKA Never mind the identity of the person. Was there no such political organisation that was supported by people with sympathies of Ciskei and Transkei etc, in Port Elizabeth? Yes, or no, in 1980? MR DLONGWANE No, I can't remember. MR NYOKA So you were not doing your job as an informer. You could have known that easily that there was a group against PEBCO, that was an alternative. Which planet were you informing on? MR DLONGWANE Mr Nyoka the Security Branch had their aim, actually their own aims and objectives of targeting some individuals within the organisations and within the society itself. MR NYOKA Were you not aware that there was an alternative that the Security Branch wanted people to join other than PEBCO which was not popular? As an informer were you not aware of that? MR DLONGWANE No. MR NYOKA Are you serious? MR DLONGWANE I am serious. MR NYOKA I noticed that on page 2 of the bundle that is the first page literally, you are answering the question "In which capacity are you applying as a South African Police?" You say that: "As a Security Branch informer." That was the capacity that you were applying for within the SAP, is that correct? MR DLONGWANE Yes, that's where I used to report. MR NYOKA If that is the case, correct me if I'm wrong, is it not the duty of an informer just to inform activists to their superiors? It was not his duty to perpetrate petrol bombing, to falsely testify against people and just to be disruptive? Was it not your duty just to be an informer correctly, information that you got? Anything other than that, you were not acting as an informer. MR DLONGWANE Ja, I think here Mr Nyoka the dynamic is orders that I would always receive from my superiors. MR NYOKA But why did you not say: "Gentlemen, that is outside my role now, I am a registered informer. Just lets stick to the basic of me informing." Why did you not refuse those orders? MR DLONGWANE It was difficult for one. MR NYOKA Why was it difficult? MR DLONGWANE Because I never signed any contract with them and there was no job description. MR NYOKA Why did you not require a contract, to sign it and say: "Hey, let's sign a contract here, this is getting out of hand now. I'm getting many jobs", or you didn't care because of getting lots of money? MR DLONGWANE No, it's because my capacity was poor in order to ask those question from them. CHAIRPERSON What would have happened, do you think, if you had to refuse to petrol bomb Mrs Gcina's house? MR DLONGWANE Then because I was very much aware ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON No, I'm not asking you about what you were aware of, what would have happened? MR DLONGWANE They were going to be suspicious. CHAIRPERSON Of what? MR DLONGWANE Why I am refusing and then beatings will actually occur. CHAIRPERSON Why couldn't you tell them, are you not happy to commit crimes: " I'm against this organisation for political reasons. I'll inform on them and you can arrest them and deal with them in terms of the laws, but I'm not happy to participate in criminal activities. I'm a law-abiding citizen." MR DLONGWANE At that time I could not see, actually I could not see any reason why should I refuse. CHAIRPERSON So you were a willing partner to committing crime? MR DLONGWANE I never regarded that as a crime. CHAIRPERSON To throw a petrol bomb at a person's house is not a crime? MR DLONGWANE Since there was a battle of ideas and the struggle, I did not regard that as a crime myself. CHAIRPERSON Oh, I see. MR NYOKA Mr Dlongwane, when you were doing these things, did you enjoy yourself, falsely testify against people, petrol bombing them, did you enjoy yourself? MR DLONGWANE No, I never enjoyed it. MR NYOKA And you were not enjoying yourself? MR DLONGWANE That's the reason why I'm here. MR NYOKA Okay. I'll just give you one example. Do you remember during the trial of Mr Mtatsi behind me, and Mr Kola Makapela, Mrs Gcina was in the passages of the court, you were wearing a tracksuit and tackies and you remarked joyfully that "Do you think I can leave these people. I've got a new tracksuit, new tackies, how can I leave these people?" And she had to leave. Do you remember that incident when you were boasting? MR DLONGWANE No, I can't remember such incident. MR NYOKA But you don't deny that it existed? MR DLONGWANE Actually I deny it. MR NYOKA So she's lying about that? My instructions are that you were boasting in the passage of the court that "I've got new tackies, new tracksuit, how can I leave these white boers?" That's what you said. MR DLONGWANE No. MR NYOKA That you were being bought a bottle of brandy. Do you remember that? MR DLONGWANE I don't. MR NYOKA Mr Dlongwane, are you here to tell the truth? You cried and said you were going to tell the truth. Maybe it's the opportunity to tell us the truth. Is that true or not? Tell us the truth now. MR DLONGWANE It's not true. MR NYOKA So she made that up? MR DLONGWANE Definitely. MR NYOKA I put it to you that you are still misleading this Committee. MR DLONGWANE I don't know. MR NYOKA You don't know that you're misleading the Committee? MR DLONGWANE No, but I know for a fact that I am here to tell the truth. ADV SANDI Sorry. You said a moment ago you had a sense of pride about working for the Security Police. Now why would not have boasted about such a thing that the police have given you a tracksuit? MR DLONGWANE I would not make such comments. ADV SANDI Were you not proud about yourself working for the police? MR DLONGWANE Yes of course there was a pride within myself, but I would not make such comments to people. MR NYOKA Maybe if it was still 1986, you would not be ashamed of that, but its because its 2 000, post April 1994. Any comment? MR DLONGWANE I've got no comment. MR NYOKA It's because the organisation that you fought for was in power after 1994 by a majority vote, now you are swinging with the tide, like a chameleon, change from yellow to yellow when it suits you, green to green when it suits you. Any comment? MR DLONGWANE I am a member of the African National Congress. MR NYOKA You are? Since when? MR DLONGWANE Since 1996. MR NYOKA When I first read your document, I was impressed at the very first page when you said the 1976 Soweto riots, uprisings, made you to be an activist, do you remember? MR DLONGWANE Yes. MR NYOKA It touched anyone. Anyone was touched by Soweto riots, 1976? MR DLONGWANE Yes. MR NYOKA But then when you were detained for the first time in February 1980, you forgot about being impressed by Soweto riots, why did you change just after one detention, Mr Dlongwane, why did you change, after one solitary detention your life changed completely. In February you were detained, in March you became a State Witness, the following month you were an informer. Why did that not have a fixed effect on you? MR DLONGWANE I did explain from the onset that because of beatings, because of the pressure from my mother who came to me after she was visited by the police several times to come and speak to me so that I confess or I tell the truth about the actually the dynamite and the other explosives. MR NYOKA And you remember you said you were in solitary confinement, not so? MR DLONGWANE Yes. MR NYOKA How did you mother visit you in solitary confinement? No one was visiting people in solitary confinement, except for a doctor. MR DLONGWANE That is the time when the police brought my mother to Swartkop police station and then after my mother spoke to me and then I agreed that right, I am going to be a State Witness and then from there, they took me to my home where they searched my home and then they got the documents etc and from then I was literally removed from the solitary confinement and then I had to join the other criminals and then that is how my mother visited me. MR NYOKA Is it not correct that you were recruited much earlier in 1977 when you were arrested with other people at Algoa Park, you testified against them? It's in the ANC document. MR DLONGWANE It's not true. MR NYOKA You made that up? MR DLONGWANE Yes, I made that up, actually while I was in Angola. MR NYOKA Why? Why did you make it up? MR DLONGWANE It's because the ANC wanted me to make it up. Not the ANC as an organisation, but people who were in the Security. MR NYOKA how did you feel when the results were announced that the ANC was into power by majority vote? How did you feel at that stage when you learned that the people you fought so hard against were in power? How did you feel? MR DLONGWANE No, actually I had the pride that at least apartheid is dead and then at least there will be a democratic South Africa. CHAIRPERSON Including communism. What did you think about it then? MR DLONGWANE No, it's because, I mean when you talk about communism, I had learned a lot about communism while I was in the foreign states, so there's nothing that came up about communism in my mind. MR NYOKA You formed that returned exiles committee and you were given payments throughout by all types of organisations, including the homeland system organisations, not so and you were jetted up and down the country, given money, not so? MR DLONGWANE It is true. MR NYOKA And that was good living, not so? Good living, luxurious living. MR DLONGWANE It was not a good living, but the aim was to ensure that we achieve our goal. CHAIRPERSON What did you earn at that time when you started to be an informer? MR DLONGWANE They would give R100 sometimes R150. CHAIRPERSON A month? MR DLONGWANE Yes. CHAIRPERSON And you took that job? MR DLONGWANE Yes, I took the job. CHAIRPERSON And by 1985, what were you earning? MR DLONGWANE At 1985 I can't remember exactly the month. CHAIRPERSON But it must have been more than R100 - R150, you must have got an increase, not so? MR DLONGWANE I can't recall. CHAIRPERSON You didn't bargain for an increase? MR DLONGWANE No. CHAIRPERSON And what would your bonuses be once you did a job? MR DLONGWANE It would depend. CHAIRPERSON On what? MR DLONGWANE How much money they gave me on top of the money I earned. CHAIRPERSON No, what would they pay you? MR DLONGWANE Sometimes it would be R300. CHAIRPERSON Extra? MR DLONGWANE No R300, which means R200 with my salary, which was R100. CHAIRPERSON So you'd get R200 when you gave good information? MR DLONGWANE It's true. CHAIRPERSON What else would you get paid for? MR DLONGWANE I did mention, it's to attend the meetings. CHAIRPERSON Ja, and provide information. MR DLONGWANE And provide information. CHAIRPERSON Anything else? MR DLONGWANE No there is nothing that I ... CHAIRPERSON You work for six years at that rate, without looking for another job? MR DLONGWANE I worked at some stage at D F Scot Wholesalers. CHAIRPERSON When? MR DLONGWANE That was the time when I came out from prison, 1981. CHAIRPERSON You were an informer already? MR DLONGWANE I was an informer 1980, but because I was arrested and from then, then I got a job at D F Scot Wholesalers then I tried to go and look... CHAIRPERSON And what were you earning then? MR DLONGWANE At D F Scot, well actually we used to earn about R75 per week. CHAIRPERSON So that would have been about R300 per month? MR DLONGWANE Ja, deductions, P.A.Y.E. CHAIRPERSON So it's equal to your top salary with the police? MR DLONGWANE Ja. CHAIRPERSON So why didn't you leave the police then? MR DLONGWANE I've got no answer. MR NYOKA is it not correct that when you left Port Elizabeth in 1980 for Queenstown, you were assigned to Security Branch people there? Remember? MR DLONGWANE Yes. MR NYOKA And then when you acquired an unlicensed firearm, you came back to P E without informing the Queenstown Security Branch? MR DLONGWANE Yes. MR NYOKA Do you agree with me that was irregular for you to do that? You were an undisciplined informer in other words, because you left people without telling them and when you came to P E you didn't tell your handlers that: "People, I'm back". You never told anyone, not so? So you were undisciplined, an undisciplined informer, not so? MR DLONGWANE I cannot regard myself as an undisciplined person. MR NYOKA No, you are not now, then you were an undisciplined in former then? MR DLONGWANE I've got no comment on that. ADV SANDI When you came to Queenstown, didn't you join up with one member of the Security Police? MR DLONGWANE Yes. ADV SANDI I've forgotten the name. What was his name? MR DLONGWANE Van Vuuren. ADV SANDI And you told him that you were coming from Port Elizabeth where you had been working as an informer? MR DLONGWANE Yes. ADV SANDI He phoned, or he contacted Port Elizabeth Security Police who confirmed that you were in fact an informer? MR DLONGWANE Yes. MR NYOKA Mr Dlongwane, when you testified before the Botswana Commission, you took an oath, not so, that you were going to tell the truth? MR DLONGWANE Yes. MR NYOKA You also testified before the Human Rights Violations Committee that you were going to tell the truth? MR DLONGWANE Yes. MR NYOKA And also in that court where you falsely testified against my clients, not so, that you were going to tell the truth, but you lied against them, not so? You took an oath that you were going to tell the truth. MR DLONGWANE Yes. MR NYOKA Why would in this fourth occasion should we believe you because every time you go under oath, you don't tell the truth, why should we believe you today? MR DLONGWANE I think the reason is that one wants to come clean. MR NYOKA You've been coming clean for three times before. How cleaner can you get? MR DLONGWANE And on top of that philosophically matter, it is always in a constant motion and it changes forms. CHAIRPERSON We're going into the realms of outer space now. MR NYOKA I was just about to phone Isaac Newton, but my phone is not permissible here. I was going to phone Newton. Mr Dlongwane, why - did it not strike you as strange that when you were burning these houses, it was black Security Forces that were being used? Did that not strike you as strange that hey, but why are we the only ones who are burning? Did that not strike you as strange? MR DLONGWANE Ja, it did. MR NYOKA And what did you do about that? MR DLONGWANE Nothing. MR NYOKA And why did you remain in the van when the house of Mrs Gcina was being burned? Why did you remain in the van? Why go there after all if you are going to remain in the car? MR DLONGWANE No, I was told to remain in the car, in the kombi. MR NYOKA Why? MR DLONGWANE I don't know what was the reason for Tongatha to instruct me to actually remain in the car. MR NYOKA In Mrs Hashe's house, did you participate? Did you go into the house? MR DLONGWANE No. MR NYOKA Because my instructions are that people were hailing insults at Mrs Hashe and the family. MR DLONGWANE No, I was not inside. CHAIRPERSON You threw a petrol bomb at the house? MR DLONGWANE No. ADV SANDI Who threw the petrol bomb there? MR DLONGWANE People who were there, it was myself, Mene and Tongatha, but myself I was in the kombi, I cannot remember who threw the petrol bomb. MR NYOKA Mr Dlongwane in 1997 in the very same hall, when some Human Rights applicants were applying for amnesty regarding the ...(indistinct) I remember I asked a question: "Why could they not have opted for burning the houses of activists rather than killing them?" You know what the answer was? The answer was: "That was not viable to kill them, we never did that." They denied that they were petrol bombing houses, it was not a viable option, yet today you are saying that you did that with the Security Forces. Who do we have to believe now? That was denied by your employers, your superiors, burning people's houses. MR DLONGWANE It is obvious that they are going to deny, but the truth is, they did and they have disrupted communities. It is the truth and I was there and I have seen them with my naked eye. MR NYOKA Do you feel you achieved your goals when you petrol bombed the houses? Do you think you achieved them, those goals, at the time? MR DLONGWANE At that time, yes. MR NYOKA Why? Were people demoralised? Did the struggle stop? Did the activists become silent? MR DLONGWANE No, but the struggle continued and became worse. MR NYOKA But why do you think you succeeded then if that was the case? MR DLONGWANE When I say I succeeded, or we succeeded, its because the petrol bombs were thrown into those houses with the expectation that people would not respond into the call from their leaders, but people resisted and they continued with the struggle. MR NYOKA Did you at any stage meet some of my clients in Port Elizabeth recently? Mr Nklansie, Kolo Makapela and Leo, did you meet them to apologise privately? MR DLONGWANE Yes, I met them. MR NYOKA And what did they say to you? MR DLONGWANE Actually they understood my situation. MR NYOKA Did they not say you must come here to apologise before the people? They were not the ones personally involved, even though directly, but it was the community? MR DLONGWANE Of course, yes, that is what they ...(indistinct) MR NYOKA Why are you shy about that? Why don't you say they said go to the TRC? Why are you shy about that? MR DLONGWANE No, I am not shy because I am here because I was told by Deputy-President Jacob Zuma to go to the TRC. MR NYOKA Please, stop using his name. Stop using his name. MR DLONGWANE But he is in my statement. MR NYOKA Ja he can be in your statement, but it depends on who the person is who is speaking. I find it strange that when you were an informer, you attended the meetings, the mass meetings from 1980, 81, 82, 83, 84 as an informer, but the speeches of my clients and other leaders did not impress you. You had to be impressed by one person, Oliver Tambo, maybe they did not do a good job, ne? Because you were listening. You must have been converted when they said the same thing that Mr Tambo said, not so? CHAIRPERSON Mr Nyoka I think that your clients would also concede that Mr Tambo was good. MR NYOKA Maybe I'm just teasing with Mr Dlongwane. They did not impress you very well even though you were listening as an informer. MR DLONGWANE Actually President Tambo's speech was a very heavy speech. MR NYOKA Why did you listen to Radio Freedom when you were an informer? Why did you bother to listen to a communist propaganda machine, that's what it was called. MR DLONGWANE I think it is proper for a person to ensure that he balances things throughout the struggle. MR NYOKA Which struggle? MR DLONGWANE Or in his life or her life. MR NYOKA That law of motion you are talking about, you were in motion towards the right track of freedom. Remember that law of motion you were talking about? MR DLONGWANE Of which I happened to be in exile after that. MR NYOKA I put it to you it was convenient of you to use Radio Freedom. You went there for other reasons because you were losing the war with your Security Forces, but the only thing that you did, you were using them in return to get money, as much money as possible. You knew that they were losing the war, but you used them for money and now you want your hands to be cleansed, any comment? MR DLONGWANE No, I've got no comment. MR NYOKA I put it to you that if PEBCO was paying you the very first time, you would have not joined the other side and also in your statement you said you joined ...(indistinct) in 1976, is that correct? First page of your bundle. MR DLONGWANE Yes. MR NYOKA ...(indistinct) was not in existence in 1976, it started 1977. That's the instruction of my clients. any comment about that? And it was there just for a short while, then it got banned after the death of Steve Biko, it was there for three or four months. Why do you say you joined ...(indistinct) in 1976 when it was not there? MR DLONGWANE I made it clear to my lawyer that 1996, that 1976 I was in the struggle. Actually 1977 I was schooling at Philipilekiwe whereby we were - actually where I joined members of the South African Students' Movement and I happened to be one of them. MR NYOKA Which struggle - in which capacity were you in the struggle in 1976? Which political home did you belong to? MR DLONGWANE Actually Black People's Convention. MR NYOKA Why is it the first time that we are hearing about that? It's not in your statement that you were for Black, BPC? It doesn't appear in your statement, this is news now. MR DLONGWANE Yes of course, actually that is what I'm telling you because at that time my ideology was Blackism. MR NYOKA It's the first time that I'm hearing of Blackism, but I will not dispute that. I can assure you that there was no political organisation propagating Blackism, maybe you should start that one. I noticed that your statement was signed or commissioned on the 13th of September 1997. On the cut-off date of the second extension for amnesty applications, if you were repenting or remorseful, why did you wait that long, because there were others that your seniors came even before you to apply on the very last day of the cut-off date, second extension, why? MR DLONGWANE The first time when I had to confess, that was 1996 and because of the commitments of my attorney in Pietermaritzburg, that took long. MR NYOKA Did you inform your fellow members of the Returned Exile Committee that you were going to apply for amnesty? MR DLONGWANE Yes, I did. MR NYOKA And what was their reaction? MR DLONGWANE From 1994 the Returned Exiles Committee dissolved and some joined different political parties and some rejoined the African National Congress, so one had a choice to take his own decision and I openly told even media people that I won't be asking for the amnesty and I am going home, I will be rejoining the African National Congress. MR NYOKA When last did you have contact with members of the former Security Forces? When last did you have contact after you returned to South Africa? MR DLONGWANE It was 1994, before our organisation or the Committee was dissolved. MR NYOKA Did any of them contact you after learning that you are going to apply for amnesty, directly or indirectly? MR DLONGWANE They all ran away because I made it openly, so nobody wanted to associate him or herself and even a guy who used to work with me, he even moved from his house to another place because he knew I was going to point him out and he's going to lose his job because of the dirty tricks that we were involved in. MR NYOKA Do you know of any other people, you don't have to mention their names, that were informers like you here in Port Elizabeth? MR DLONGWANE Yes. MR NYOKA Roughly how many? I see you are smiling. MR DLONGWANE That's a difficult question. MR NYOKA I'm not asking their identities. The number, their number, what's difficult with that? I'm not saying mention them, a, b, c, d, just their number. CHAIRPERSON Mr Nyoka, maybe you're talking at cross purposes because these people also had numbers. How many perhaps is the proper. MR NYOKA How many, as one, two, three, how many informers were here in Port Elizabeth that you were operating with that shared your views? MR DLONGWANE I can't remember because my number was 446. MR NYOKA MR DLONGWANE No, the Security Police, they never operated like that. MR NYOKA How did they operate like? MR DLONGWANE The other informer would not see other informers. MR NYOKA So you do not know of any other informers? CHAIRPERSON Mr Nyoka, you know very well that the Security Police operated on the need to know basis. We've heard that so many times. MR NYOKA ... some ground for some stupidity to some extent, or just a lapse of cleverness or you know whatever Mr Chairman. It's the first time that I'm cross-examining a self-confessed informer. I must take as much as I can from him. CHAIRPERSON Don't push your luck. MR NYOKA You remember also, although you didn't mention this, this is very important regarding the PEBCO ...(indistinct) you said you were instructed by Sgt Faku that Mr Niewoudt said you must make, check information on UDF offices. You phoned that day and then you learned that the PEBCO three were kidnapped. You still stick with that? MR DLONGWANE Yes. MR NYOKA Were you not curious why your phone call will lead to the ...(indistinct) you didn't ask your handlers: "Hey what happened to the PEBCO three" from 1985, we're in 2000 now, did you never ask them? MR DLONGWANE No, I never asked them. MR NYOKA My instructions are that it is not true that you were the one who phoned, you are just trying to link yourself with the PEBCO three disappearance to ...(indistinct) your application, to sensationalise your application. Any comment about that? MR DLONGWANE I do have a comment, because even in exile I did mention that. MR NYOKA But it's not in your confession, that is what I was going to ask. It's not appearing in your confession that: "Gentlemen, I have a linkage with the PEBCO three", it doesn't appear in the confession to ANC, nor even to the Motsanyuane Commission, it's not mentioned. Why do you not mention to the ANC: "Gentlemen, the people that you are looking for, I was sent to gather information about them"? MR DLONGWANE I did mention in the ANC. MR NYOKA But it's not in the statements. My instructions are that Mr Makapela and Ms ...(indistinct) were never involved in that incident of stoning busses. MR DLONGWANE I agree. MR NYOKA And Mr Mtatsi was just in a meeting at Mahakana Street, never threw stones at a bus. Do you agree also? MR DLONGWANE Ja, I agree. MR NYOKA And did you take any effort to confront them when you returned to South Africa and say: "Gentlemen, I'm sorry about this, I lied about it."? MR DLONGWANE I told them. MR NYOKA You told them? MR DLONGWANE Yes. MR NYOKA I see your voice is going down. When? MR DLONGWANE 1998. MR NYOKA Why wait so long? Some people spent a whole year in prison because you misled the court. MR DLONGWANE Actually that came because of the change of heart. ADV SANDI What about the, I suppose it was a Magistrate, who found these people guilty and he sent them to jail? did you go back to him to say that: "Look I was lying these people were not there"? MR DLONGWANE No. No because actually a person, a prosecutor who was there in court, I met him at Sanlam building and he also directed me and he also informed me on how he's going to question me. CHAIRPERSON What was his name? MR DLONGWANE I just forget. CHAIRPERSON Can you describe him? MR DLONGWANE Ja, he's a white person but I can't remember ... CHAIRPERSON That helps me a lot. There were only white prosecutors those days. What else can you say about him? Was he short, tall? MR DLONGWANE He was tall. CHAIRPERSON What colour hair? MR DLONGWANE I can't remember colour hair. CHAIRPERSON And you spoke to him? MR DLONGWANE Yes, I spoke to him. CHAIRPERSON How did you refer to him? MR DLONGWANE Sorry? CHAIRPERSON How did you speak to him? How did you refer to him? MR DLONGWANE No, actually he was called by Capt Roelofse and Niewoudt and then he actually was called and then he told me on how he's going to ask me questions, that's all, nothing further. MR NYOKA You were also having an interest in drama plays, not so? MR DLONGWANE Yes. MR NYOKA Did your interest in drama plays not play a big role in your trying to infiltrate people and exaggerate information that you were giving to the police, did it not help? MR DLONGWANE No, I didn't look at it like that. MR NYOKA You were getting ...(indistinct) for each bit of information, sure you exaggerated and lied to ensure that you maximise your payments of R100, not so? MR DLONGWANE No. MR NYOKA No. I'm told that you said that you were involved in the planning of the consumer boycott or bus boycott, my instructions are that it was only the executives of PEBCO, COSAS and MACUSA that were involved in the planning. No non-executive member was involved in that. Why did you say therefore that you were involved in the planning of the bus boycott when you were not an executive member? MR DLONGWANE What I remember well is that in the meeting I was there and this was discussed and the following - and then the next step, that is when we attended a meeting in KwaZakhele and on our way back, that is when we stoned busses on a Sunday. MR NYOKA Is it correct that you were in the general meetings, not in Executive meetings? In other words you are taking second-hand information, not the co-planning of any action, not so? MR DLONGWANE I can take it that way. MR NYOKA And so what you gave over was not very first-hand or reliable. MR DLONGWANE I've got no comment. MR NYOKA No, you must comment. Why don't you have a comment? You are here to tell us the truth. I'm not going to accept that. You are going to tell us the truth. You must make full disclosure in order to get amnesty. MR DLONGWANE No, I've got no comment on that. MR NYOKA Are you refusing or you are not able to answer it? Are you refusing to answer the question or you are not able? MR DLONGWANE I am not able to answer it because I do not understand when you say, because the information was a second-hand information. Second-hand and the first information, I do not know. CHAIRPERSON Listen to me, is it true you were not in executive meetings? MR DLONGWANE I was not in the Executive, but I was in the meeting where we spoke about it. CHAIRPERSON No, listen to me. MR DLONGWANE Yes. CHAIRPERSON And were you ever - do you know about a meeting of all these three or four organisations' executives? Do you know of a meeting like that? MR DLONGWANE I know of the meeting which was called where the issue of the bus boycott was discussed. CHAIRPERSON No, listen to me. Do you know of a meeting that occurred where the Executive Committees of PEBCO - who were they? MR NYOKA PEBCO, COSAS and MACUSA and PACO. CHAIRPERSON Those four Executive Committees met, do you know of such a meeting? MR DLONGWANE No, I don't. CHAIRPERSON Now it's been put to you that on occasion that time, those four organisations' Executive Committees met where they discussed the issue of the busses and they decided that they were going to recommend that a bus boycott should take place. Correct? You say you don't know of a meeting like that, so obviously you can't dispute what he proposes to you? MR DLONGWANE Myself, I know of the general meeting which I attended ... CHAIRPERSON Mr Dlongwane, I'm not so clever, I can't go forward, I'm going step by step, do you understand? MR DLONGWANE Yes. CHAIRPERSON So you can't dispute what has been the proposition that has been put to you? MR DLONGWANE I cannot dispute. CHAIRPERSON Yes. Now what he's saying is that when you went to report to your handlers and the Security Police, you were reporting on issues regarding the recommendation, the boycott, the using of buses, not what was discussed in that combined Executive Committee meeting, do you understand? MR DLONGWANE Yes. CHAIRPERSON Now that's what Mr Nyoka's saying, that your reports to your handlers were of a second-hand nature because you weren't present at the main meeting where that decision was taken. Do you follow? MR DLONGWANE Yes. CHAIRPERSON So he's not trying to make a fool of you and he's not disputing any, he's just putting it to you for the purposes of the record. Have you got any comment about that? MR DLONGWANE No, I've got no comment. MR NYOKA In other words if Mr Niewoudt chose to get into the hall and sit at the back, he would have got that information himself without using you, not so? MR DLONGWANE He did, many a times. MR NYOKA So what was your role then, if someone could just enter the hall and listen to a mass meeting? What was your role, other than getting money for scrappy information? Please do answer my question. MR DLONGWANE I've got no comment. MR NYOKA Thank you. If Mr - lastly I'm going to ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON Do you accept what he says? MR DLONGWANE Ja, I understand what he says. CHAIRPERSON Did you understand what he said? MR DLONGWANE Yes, I understand. CHAIRPERSON And you accept that? MR DLONGWANE Ja, because I have seen him coming to the hall. CHAIRPERSON No, no, no. It's been put to you that your role there was purposeless and your only involvement was to collect money. That's what's been put to you. Do you agree with what he says, or do you dispute it, or what is the position? MR DLONGWANE Regarding collecting money, I still insist I've got no comment. CHAIRPERSON So do you agree with what he says on this? MR DLONGWANE Ja, in all what he says, I agree, but when coming to collecting money, I don't agree with him. MR NYOKA And finally Mr Dlongwane, if you want my client and the community to forgive you, why is it that you are not applying for amnesty for killing Mr Mpendo, Mr Jack's uncle? You admitted that he was shot nine times by Toksana Nkalinda and then you also participated by assaulting him with a stick. Why is it that you leave other things? You apply for bits and pieces and you leave other things? Why don't you apply for everything that is political that you were involved in if you are sincere, you want an apology and you are very remorseful and you are a changed person now? MR DLONGWANE Regarding the case of the late Mr Mpendo, since he was killed I was present there and even at this point in time, I still felt that ...(indistinct) Jack and the community, they have to know who killed Mr Mpendo on that evening. CHAIRPERSON You must stop interpreting things to suit yourself. In the documents you did not only say you were present when that gentleman was killed, you hit him with a stick. That's what you say in your statement. He was shot nine times and you brutalised his body. I can't remember for what purpose but you used a stick to brutalise his body. That's what you said in your statement. So what I'm saying to you is don't come tell us or distance yourself from the event and the question was direct to you, a simple question. Why don't you apply for that incident? MR DLONGWANE No, when I made my application for the amnesty, then regarding the issue or the death of Mr Mpendo, then a person I said to myself a person who needs to apply for Mr Mpendo's death is Toksana Nkalinda. MR NYOKA How can he apply for amnesty when he's dead? He died. MR DLONGWANE I don't have ...(indistinct) MR NYOKA Okay. Do you deny or admit the fact that you assaulted Mr Mpendo after he was shot? MR DLONGWANE I don't deny. MR NYOKA Why didn't you apply for amnesty for the assault then? Let's say it's not murder, you don't believe that you killed him, but why didn't you apply for amnesty for assault, the part that you played? MR DLONGWANE I didn't see actually a reason why I had to apply because I knew the person who killed him. ADV SANDI But don't you regard it as a crime to beat a person with a stick? Isn't that a crime? MR DLONGWANE Ja it is a crime. ADV SANDI You still didn't see any need to apply for amnesty for that? MR DLONGWANE Ja because in my mind I said actually I had seen the person who shot him and the person was not even arrested. ADV SANDI And you kept quiet about it? MR DLONGWANE I kept quiet until I told the ANC in exile. ADV SANDI Did you tell his relatives inside the country what you had seen? MR DLONGWANE I told yes. I met Nkuseli Jack and then I told him. ADV SANDI But when was that? MR DLONGWANE That was 1998. ADV SANDI Ja, you didn't go and tell him immediately after the incident, did you, you didn't? MR NYOKA According to the ANC you also made an admission that you shot and killed two other people, Mr Mateza, Chairperson of the Loyiso Secondary Schools Committee and Mr Lulamile, ...(indistinct) member. Do you deny that, or you admit it? MR DLONGWANE I deny. MR NYOKA It was something that he made up? MR DLONGWANE The one of Lulamile, it is something that I made up. Of Mr Mateza a person who shot Mr Mateza, it was Mr Mpeno's son, what you call a Mr Phuthu's son, by the name of Xola and I was there and then he was charged by the Murder and Robbery Squad and he was sentenced, but then the Security Members of the ANC, they wanted me to actually to claim the responsibility. MR NYOKA If a ten year old was in this hall and was told that you want to be forgiven for burning the houses of activists and falsely testifying against activists, although you admit having assaulted someone, but you're not applying for amnesty for that, would that convince even a ten year old that you are really remorseful? You admit that you assaulted someone but you don't apply for amnesty, you don't say anything about that. Would a ten year old be convinced that you are really remorseful, Mr Dlongwane? CHAIRPERSON Mr Nyoka the fact that he's not remorseful or otherwise, is not a requirement of the Act. MR NYOKA That he was sorry Mr Chairperson and he cried. I was touched. I want to see whether I should be touched after leaving this hall, or should I abandon my being touched. CHAIRPERSON That's for the community to decide. MR NYOKA My clients are not impressed with your performance in general, you have not told us the truth. I wish to put it to you now, not in argument, whilst you are still there. We are not - my clients are not impressed that you spoke the truth. You are still not telling us the truth as you did before and now because circumstances suit you, the people that you fought against are not with you, you want to change like a chameleon. Any comment? MR DLONGWANE I told myself that when I come here, I'm coming to tell the truth and ask for an apology, for forgiveness. MR NYOKA No further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR NYOKA CHAIRPERSON Mr van der Merwe. MR VAN DER MERWE Thank you Mr Chair, I'll be short. CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR VAN DER MERWE Mr Dlongwane, the problem is not only does Mr Nyoka's people not believe you, I'm going to show to you that you're not being honest with this Committee. Can you just quickly, for background purposes tell me which organisations you belonged to since 1976. You said to us in 1976 you belonged to the BPC. What position was that, just a member? MR DLONGWANE I said 1976 I was in the struggle, influenced by the Soweto uprising. MR VAN DER MERWE No, no, I just want to know the organisations. MR DLONGWANE The organisations that were there, 1977, there was BPC, there was ...(intervention) MR VAN DER MERWE No, sorry Mr Dlongwane, we're going to cut this much sorter. I want to know which organisations you belonged to. MR DLONGWANE I was in the ...(indistinct) while I was at school MR VAN DER MERWE When was that? MR DLONGWANE That was 1997. MR VAN DER MERWE And in 1976 were you a member of the BPC or not? MR DLONGWANE Actually 76, because the whole struggle, I would say people who were in the forefront, were the people who had beliefs of the Black Consciousness and I happened also to have those beliefs. MR VAN DER MERWE Were you a member, yes or no? MR DLONGWANE I was never been a card carrier member of those organisations but my beliefs ...(intervention) MR VAN DER MERWE Thank you. That's easy, so you weren't a member. Did you belong to any other organisations? MR DLONGWANE I was a card carrying member of PEBCO. MR VAN DER MERWE Of PEBCO? Since when? MR DLONGWANE 1979, from its formation. MR VAN DER MERWE And apart from PEBCO? MR DLONGWANE I was also a PACO member. MR VAN DER MERWE Since when? MR DLONGWANE Since 1983. CHAIRPERSON Who was the President then? MR DLONGWANE The President was Nkuseli Jack. CHAIRPERSON 1983? MR DLONGWANE Yes. CHAIRPERSON And of PEBCO in 1979, when you joined, who was the President then? MR DLONGWANE It was Thozamile Bota. MR VAN DER MERWE Thank you Mr Chair. In all these organisations you were involved just as a member, a card-carrying member, you weren't on the Executive or anything like that, is that true? MR DLONGWANE Yes. MR VAN DER MERWE And in both these organisations, how long did you serve? How long were you a member of PEBCO? MR DLONGWANE I've been a member of PEBCO until 1983. MR VAN DER MERWE 83, PEBCO, thank you. And PACO? MR DLONGWANE And in PACO until 1984. MR VAN DER MERWE Why did you end your membership? MR DLONGWANE No its because of my activities. MR VAN DER MERWE What activities? MR DLONGWANE Of being a police informer. MR VAN DER MERWE So are you telling me the community was aware that you were a police informer? MR DLONGWANE Yes, they were. MR VAN DER MERWE Now if the community was aware that you were a police informer, you want to tell me - well before I get there, may I just ask, in bundle 1 you supplied us with an affidavit which is on page 9 to page 36 and signed by yourself in front of a Commissioner of Oaths which is your TRC application. Do you confirm this, or is there any, is this the whole truth, as you say, or are there some untruths in there? MR DLONGWANE It's the truth. MR VAN DER MERWE All of it? Right. Then if we turn to page 13 of it, why would Sgt Faku who is obviously also deceased at this stage, why would he ask you and tell you that Col Gideon Niewoudt told you that you should attend the UDF offices to provide information when everybody in the whole of South Africa knows you're an "impimpi"? Why would he send you to the UDF offices? Surely he's got people that's better placed? Does it make sense to you? MR DLONGWANE Ja, it does make sense, after I was told by Nkuseli Jack when we had a meeting together with Zola Mtatsi and all the colleagues, 1998, that for a long time they have been watching me, they knew for the fact that I was a police informer. MR VAN DER MERWE No, you must listen to my question please Mr Dlongwane. You resigned out of PEBCO and PACO in 83 and 84 because of the fact that everybody knew you were an impimpi. MR DLONGWANE Actually I never officially resigned. MR VAN DER MERWE ; You just disappeared. MR DLONGWANE I was not involved the way I used to be. CHAIRPERSON Mr Dlongwane, you just testified that in 1984 the public in general knew that you were a police informer, correct? MR DLONGWANE Yes. CHAIRPERSON In 1985 is the question. If everybody knew that you were a police informer in 1984, why would Faku and or Niewoudt instruct you to go to the offices of the United Democratic Front to obtain information? Foolish. MR DLONGWANE I don't know what was the reason behind that, but the instruction was given to me. MR VAN DER MERWE ; Thank you Mr Chair. And then, strangely enough, the only names you mention are the three names of the people who were killed in the PEBCO Three incident. Isn't this a matter of where you were trying to just move yourself into a place where people can take notice of you? You wanted to impress people that you were involved in this and you knew about everything, isn't that true and that what you told here is not true actually? MR DLONGWANE I don't agree with you. MR VAN DER MERWE Let me ask you quickly. Did you ever go to the PEBCO office in those days? MR DLONGWANE Yes. MR VAN DER MERWE Where was the PEBCO office? MR DLONGWANE ...(indistinct) opposite the New Law Courts. MR VAN DER MERWE No Sir, that was the UDF offices. It was Court Chambers and I think maybe some of the other people around here must have been there. I don't want to speculate but you're wrong. Where were PEBCO's offices in those days? I will tell you where it was. MR DLONGWANE I still say it was opposite the New Law Courts. MR VAN DER MERWE Well you're wrong. It was at Lemane's Garage on the top, next to the - close by the Dan ...(indistinct) stadium, Johnson road. Now if you were such a good informer you would know that and a member of PEBCO, isn't that so? MR DLONGWANE I still continue to say opposite the New Law Courts. MR VAN DER MERWE No well you are wrong. CHAIRPERSON What would you say if it's proved to you that you are wrong? MR DLONGWANE That is how myself I understood it. CHAIRPERSON No well never mind what you understood, if you're proved to be wrong, what do you say then? MR DLONGWANE I won't have any comment. MR VAN DER MERWE Let me just place it on record. These are the instructions I received from Mr Niewoudt this morning and Mrs Gcina who is sitting on my right-hand side confirms that it's correct, so you are wrong and she's not even my client. When you were in Lesotho, did you ever meet the MK Military Commander there? MR DLONGWANE No. MR VAN DER MERWE Why not? In 1983. MR DLONGWANE I met the members of the ANC, but who was the cadre there, I do not know. MR VAN DER MERWE So you don't even know what his name was? If I tell you his name was Alfred Nwana, it wouldn't mean anything to you? Not? MR DLONGWANE No. MR VAN DER MERWE Right. When you were sent - I'm just touching on a couple of aspects, just to show you that you are talking nonsense. MR DLONGWANE Don't swear at me please. MR VAN DER MERWE When you went to Queenstown, you said your main task according to you was to monitor COSAS and AZAPO in Queenstown, is that right? MR DLONGWANE Yes. MR VAN DER MERWE How would you have done that? By infiltrating the organisations? MR DLONGWANE Because of course it was my job to infiltrate. MR VAN DER MERWE No, listen to my question. MR DLONGWANE To infiltrate. MR VAN DER MERWE To infiltrate. So you were going to infiltrate two organisations that were in conflict with each other and you didn't think that strange? I want to put it to you, it's impossible to do that because people in COSAS would have seen you if you were associating with AZAPO and vice versa. MR DLONGWANE It is news to me that AZAPO and COSAS were in conflict in Queenstown. MR VAN DER MERWE Well then maybe you weren't on the same planet as us during those years. ADV SANDI These two organisations, either in conflict or if not engaged in an actual conflict, there would be tension of some kind in many places in the country and I would suppose that Queenstown would have been one of them. They were not working together, were they, COSAS and AZAPO? MR DLONGWANE COSAS was a student body. CHAIRPERSON Do you remember, I don't know if you know him or knew him, Mr Goniwe, the late Mr Goniwe? MR DLONGWANE Yes, I remember him. CHAIRPERSON Four of them were assassinated, do you remember? MR DLONGWANE Yes. CHAIRPERSON In about 1985 I think. And you know the people who killed them made application I think in this very hall for amnesty in respect of those murders and you know the reason they gave for assassinating those people is that they were fuelling the rumpus and the burning in the Eastern Cape and they murdered them so that it looked like an assassination by AZAPO. So even the Security Police knew that that conflict which they were themselves fuelling was not only restricted to Port Elizabeth, but right around the Eastern Cape, that's what they testified here. Are you still telling us you were unaware of this conflict, no matter how it started and why it started, it did not exist in Queenstown? MR DLONGWANE The year 1980 when I was there. CHAIRPERSON No, I'm talking about 1985. MR DLONGWANE Regarding Queenstown 1985, I do not have any knowledge but I have seen it happening in Port Elizabeth. MR VAN DER MERWE Thank you Mr Chair. I'll proceed. Mr Dlongwane, when were you arrested as a result of this bus boycott and the burning and stoning of busses? MR DLONGWANE I was arrested 1983. MR VAN DER MERWE Together with all the other people that were arrested or were you arrested on your own? MR DLONGWANE No, when I was arrested, we were only four and then from then the raid was made and myself, I went to the house of Sandisile Dahile and the police went to collect all the members. MR VAN DER MERWE So how many of you were arrested in the end, approximately? MR DLONGWANE I can't remember the figure, but the first time when we were arrested, we were four. MR VAN DER MERWE You then decided during this time of your detention that you were going to turn State Witness, is that correct? MR DLONGWANE Yes. MR VAN DER MERWE But you were not the only State Witness, there were two other guys by the name of Mlamle Tambo and one by the name of Lucy who turned State Witness with you, am I correct? MR DLONGWANE Yes, I still remember. MR VAN DER MERWE Ja, so it's not only your evidence that led to the conviction of the gentleman on my right, but there were two other guys who gave testimony as well. That's right? MR DLONGWANE Yes. MR VAN DER MERWE And two other guys refused to testify, Mr Motang and Mr Sekutu and they were sentenced to six months imprisonment for their refusal to testify, can you remember that? MR DLONGWANE Yes. MR VAN DER MERWE Now after you gave evidence in this matter, which was a public criminal trial, everybody knew who you were and that you were on the side of the Security Establishment, is that right? MR DLONGWANE yes. MR VAN DER MERWE Do you still believe and are you trying to convince this Committee that they must accept the fact that the Security Police could use you in any form whatsoever after this, after you've been shown to the people as part of their apparatus? MR DLONGWANE I still insist to say they did use me after that. MR VAN DER MERWE Alright. I'm not going to waste the Committee's time any further. My instructions are as follows, that neither Mr Niewoudt nor Capt or Col Roelofse at that stage had any dealings with you, you were not their informer and they never dealt with you and if you say so, you are lying. MR DLONGWANE They are the liars. MR VAN DER MERWE I have further instructions from whom I now know should be Mr Mbatla Tongatha that he has never had any dealings with you either and if you say you had dealings with him, you are not telling the truth. MR DLONGWANE I disagree with him. MR VAN DER MERWE Right. Was there any special ability that you had, why they had to take you with as a witness when they petrol bombed houses, or was it just the fact that they had to take someone with who can come and give evidence about it? MR DLONGWANE Can you be specific? MR VAN DER MERWE Why did they have to take you with, Mr Dlongwane, if they had to go petrol bomb houses? MR DLONGWANE I don't know what was behind that. MR VAN DER MERWE Well, let's get to the front of it. You were never a member of the SAP those days? You were never a member of the South African Police. MR DLONGWANE I disagree with you because 1992 Pretoria also confirmed that I worked for the South African Police as a spy. MR VAN DER MERWE No, listen to what I'm saying. I see the newspaper says you were a super spy. We'll decide on that later. What I'm saying is you were never a member of the SAP, if you were, you would have had a force number, a South African Police Force number. MR DLONGWANE My Force number was 446/80. MR VAN DER MERWE No, that's not a force number, Mr Dlongwane. MR DLONGWANE Maybe then you can tell me more, if you are a policeman. MR VAN DER MERWE No, I'm not a policeman, I might look like one, but I'm not. I'm an attorney. I appear for lots of policemen, but a police force number has a w or a number in front and a longer number, it has got about seven or eight digits ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON That may be official policemen, Mr van der Merwe, but maybe you got shorter numbers for informers. MR VAN DER MERWE Mr Chairman ... CHAIRPERSON I'm not an expert, I'm just suggesting it. MR VAN DER MERWE I'm not an expert either but what I do know is that if you're an informer, you are not a policeman. You don't go on a payroll, you don't go on a medical aid, you don't go on a pension scheme, you don't qualify for housing scheme, and you don't wear a uniform. An informer is someone that approaches the South African Police at that stage, with information which he sells. That is what an informer is. Is that what you did? MR DLONGWANE I did explain that I had a stable salary being an informer. MR VAN DER MERWE And this salary, how was it paid to you? MR DLONGWANE Every month and then I had to sign the receipt. MR VAN DER MERWE I mean was it paid in cash or was it paid into a bank account, or how did you receive it. MR DLONGWANE It was paid in cash. MR VAN DER MERWE Were all the other policemen paid in cash in those days? MR DLONGWANE I never even asked one of them how does he get his salary. MR VAN DER MERWE I will tell you. They were paid into a bank account. But let's leave it there. My instructions are just that you were never employed by the South African Police and the three gentlemen I've mentioned, which is Roelofse, Niewoudt and Tongatha, never had any dealings with you. They cannot say you weren't an informer. You might have been an informer for other policemen, they don't know, but you simply did not inform them and you never received any instructions from them. MR DLONGWANE I disagree. MR VAN DER MERWE Right. Did you know the name of Mrs Mawela? Does it ring a bell? MR DLONGWANE No. MR VAN DER MERWE Well, let me help you. This is a lady who was put out of her house, her house was close to the Crown Bioscope building, by Thamsanga Linda. MR DLONGWANE Ja, I remember the incident. MR VAN DER MERWE And you lived in that house, together with some of the other gentlemen that were supposedly looking after Thamsanga Linda, can you remember that? MR DLONGWANE Yes. MR VAN DER MERWE And you know that there was a big story about the fact that Mr Linda just took the house from her, chased her out the house and took the house and used it as he wanted to? PEBCO still, PEBCO was very upset about that. Do you know that? MR DLONGWANE Yes. MR VAN DER MERWE Now my instructions are that you were part of Mr Linda's vigilante group who lived there and terrorised the community. MR DLONGWANE Yes, because I was instructed by Deon Niewoudt and Roelofse to go and assist Linda. MR VAN DER MERWE You've now moved to first name terms. Deon Niewoudt. Why didn't you mention that in your statement? MR DLONGWANE It is. MR VAN DER MERWE It is not in here, Sir. You said you received instructions that you should assist them when they were attacked, not to terrorise the community. Is that right? MR DLONGWANE When now we are talking about terrorising, that is not in my statement. MR VAN DER MERWE I will leave that. You mention on the same page of your statement: "We also enlisted the services of the Black Jacks in these attacks." What are Black Jacks? MR DLONGWANE Those were the Municipality police. MR VAN DER MERWE But that's not the Black Jacks in this community, they were called the Green Flies. MR DLONGWANE That's your own term. MR VAN DER MERWE No that is a fact. MR DLONGWANE I don't know that one. MR VAN DER MERWE I'll tell you why you say Black Jacks, Mr Dlongwane, you're confused. In the old Transvaal, which is now Gauteng, they were called the Black Jacks. You're busy writing a story here, Mr Dlongwane, you're taking half as fact and half as fiction and mixing it up and thinking you can come to the TRC with a nice story and then just look at the people and say: "Now I want to be forgiven." MR DLONGWANE Actually, I disagree with you. ADV SANDI We must ask you to explain that. It has been put to you quite a number of times that you do not like telling the truth. Is that true? MR DLONGWANE I like telling the truth, as I am here. ADV SANDI Ja, but the statement you have furnished to this Committee shows that on quite a number of occasions you lied for various reasons. You lied to the Truth Commission when you appeared in 1996, not so? MR DLONGWANE Yes. ADV SANDI But you like telling the truth? MR DLONGWANE Yes, that's the reason why I'm here, I'm coming to tell the truth. ADV SANDI Have you always been a person who like to tell the truth in your life? MR DLONGWANE Yes. ADV SANDI That is not reflected in the long statement you have submitted to this Committee. When you were impressed by the statement by Mr Nelson Mandela, that people should come and appear here before the TRC here, that was in 1996? You said you were moved by the statement he had made that people should come to the TRC and tell the truth. Do you remember saying that? MR DLONGWANE Actually I said 1994 I did appear. ADV SANDI Where? MR DLONGWANE Actually in the amnesty hearing, In the TRC, 1994 there was. Actually I even wrote a letter while I was living at Ulundi and I applied. ADV SANDI There was no TRC in 1994. MR DLONGWANE 1994 I did apply, I made a submission. CHAIRPERSON The Act is Act 34 of 1995. ADV SANDI Should I accept that as further evidence that you don't like telling the truth? MR DLONGWANE 1995 I was not at Ulundi. 1994, that's when I wrote a letter and then I asked to ensure that I also participate in the Truth Commission and then 1996 I was called in Durban. ADV SANDI If you say you were impressed by the statement that was made by Mr Nelson Mandela that people should come and testify before the TRC so that the truth can be known, why did you tell all these lies when you eventually appeared before the Human Rights Violations Committee of the TRC? People like the Late Mr Chris Hani, Mr Tshwete, Mr Jacob Zuma, Mr Alfred Nzo, had assaulted you whilst you were in exile, then later you said you were lying to say that. MR DLONGWANE I did mention for the fact that there was a purpose of saying so, because at that time I was working with the organisation that wanted to see the ANC losing the vote and to discredit the African National Congress. CHAIRPERSON That was a lot of mischief you were making. MR DLONGWANE It's difficult for me actually to accept that it was a mischief. CHAIRPERSON If it was lies, then what else can it be? MR DLONGWANE Because by influencing me to go to the Commission and instruct me to say A, B, C, D and then they had a purpose behind that. MR VAN DER MERWE As the Committee pleases. Mr Dlongwane, I just want to put to you that Mr Niewoudt, as Mrs Gcina and the other people will be aware, worked extensively on PEBCO. Everybody in PEBCO knew Mr Niewoudt. He harassed them, he gave them trouble right from the start, so why would he ask you to go tell him who is there and you come back to him with three names of people who weren't even on the PEBCO Executive at that stage, because none of the three names you mentioned to him were on the Executive of PEBCO at that stage. What type of information is this? Then you say he's paid you for it. MR DLONGWANE I don't know actually what was his reason behind or the hidden agenda. MR VAN DER MERWE ; Well I want to put it to you, he did not need you to inform him about PEBCO, he knew enough about PEBCO and that's why I'm saying, when you're saying he tasked you to go and find out about PEBCO, it is not true. I will take it further. According to you evidence, you were instructed to petrol bomb influential people's houses. Is that right? MR DLONGWANE Yes. MR VAN DER MERWE Who gave you that instruction? MR DLONGWANE Deon Niewoudt. MR VAN DER MERWE On his own? MR DLONGWANE Roelofse. MR VAN DER MERWE Who gave you? Both of them? One of them? MR DLONGWANE Working together with Stanford Mene and Butler ...(indistinct). MR VAN DER MERWE And now when they instructed you, what did they give you? Did they give you names? Did they give you addresses? Or did they tell you, you can decide whom you want to attack? MR DLONGWANE ; Mbatla had a list of names and the addresses. MR VAN DER MERWE That he gave to you? MR DLONGWANE No, because myself, I was always with them in the kombi, I never committed those crimes of petrol bombing houses independently alone, I was always in their company and I stated very clear the reason being number one, they were causing a confusion while AZAPO and UDF, they had problems, as if UDF was or AZAPO was petrol bombing UDF houses. MR VAN DER MERWE Why didn't you write your affidavit, your statement, and say: "I didn't throw the petrol bombs", or "In some of the instances I threw them and in some of the instances Tongatha and Mene threw them"? You just said: "During this period I was involved with petrol bomb attacks on UDF houses" and they assisted you. MR DLONGWANE I said very clear that I was involved in the petrol bombings. MR VAN DER MERWE And they assisted you. MR DLONGWANE And then I was together with them. MR VAN DER MERWE And they assisted you? MR DLONGWANE We were together. MR VAN DER MERWE Your language used in the application is: "Sgt Tongatha, Sgt Mene assisted in these attacks on the UDF houses". Is that right? MR DLONGWANE Yes, it's true, because myself, I was an informer and then they were the police. MR VAN DER MERWE Now when you run out or when you stay in the kombi and Tongatha throws the petrol bomb on the house, he's definitely not assisting you, he is doing the petrol bombing, then you aren't doing the petrol bombing, isn't that right? MR DLONGWANE I did mention for the fact that at some actual instances, I participated in throwing petrol bombs and in some occasions then Tongatha actually would be the one who would be throwing the petrol bombs. MR VAN DER MERWE I put it to you, this is something that has developed today and you have never before said that in any documentation that you've supplied to the TRC. It's just another reason why we should tread carefully on your evidence. You also in your evidence said, when you gave evidence, said they instructed me to petrol bomb these houses and they supplied me with the addresses and then you said: "I was not alone". Why was it necessary for them to supply you with addresses? MR DLONGWANE I did mention that the addresses were always available in the office and then they knew the houses and then they knew the leaders who have to be targeted. MR VAN DER MERWE But Mr Dlongwane, did you know Mr Sipho Hashe? MR DLONGWANE Yes, I did. MR VAN DER MERWE Did you know where he lived? MR DLONGWANE Yes. MR VAN DER MERWE Did you know Lulu Johnson? MR DLONGWANE Yes. MR VAN DER MERWE Did you know where he lived? MR DLONGWANE Yes. MR VAN DER MERWE I can go through the whole list. So why is it necessary for them to give you an address? MR DLONGWANE I did explain to you for the fact that they had an objective of targeting the so called big fishes. CHAIRPERSON Mr Dlongwane, the question is absolutely simple. Why was it necessary for you to obtain addresses from the police when you knew where these people stayed? MR DLONGWANE I don't know what was the reason for them to give me the addresses. ADV SANDI But why didn't you say: "Look, Gentlemen, you don't have to give me these addresses, just give me the names, I know where most of these people live, I don't need the addresses." Why didn't you say that? MR DLONGWANE That never came into my mind. ADV SANDI Why not? MD DLONGWANE It's just like that. Actually it never came into my mind, totally. ADV SANDI Weren't you interested to impress them and show them that you are a good informer? You've got the information already about these people, you know where they stay. MR DLONGWANE No the part of impressing them, it never came into my mind. MR VAN DER MERWE Let me ask you one of the last questions. You alleged that as an informer, you went to the Sanlam building and had meetings there at Sanlam building with the Security Police, is that right? MR DLONGWANE Yes. MR VAN DER MERWE Was this something that happened regularly? MR DLONGWANE Yes, every Mondays I would go to the Sanlam building, or if I don't go then they would come and meet me at Veeplaas. MR VAN DER MERWE Okay. And at that stage you were still a secret informer of the police? MR DLONGWANE Yes. MR VAN DER MERWE Are you sure about that? MR DLONGWANE Ja. MR VAN DER MERWE And you want us to believe you can walk in and out of the Sanlam building and nobody in the community is going to know you're a police spy? MR DLONGWANE I never thought like that. MR VAN DER MERWE Let me tell you the Security ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON Do you know that time what the bus terminus and the train station was there? MR DLONGWANE Yes. CHAIRPERSON You know that? MR DLONGWANE I still remember. CHAIRPERSON And you say nobody saw you, or would have seen you? MR DLONGWANE I don't know how many people saw me, that, I mean, I cannot deny. ADV SANDI Were you not concerned that people could see you? MR DLONGWANE No, that never ran in my mind. ADV SANDI You didn't care about that? MR DLONGWANE Not that, but it never ran in my mind. ADV SANDI Thank you. MR VAN DER MERWE I'd just like to put to you my instructions from Mr Niewoudt and Roelofse is that whenever they saw informers, they would see them at places where they will not be noticed and the Security Police Head Quarters is the last place in the world that they would have seen you, if you were their informer, which you weren't, so it just proves further that you're not speaking the truth. MR DLONGWANE ; Unfortunately, actually it is difficult for me to mention the names of people that are not in this application, but there were those who can say: "Pat, I met you while I was detained by the Security Police. I saw you coming in a 6 o'clock." MR VAN DER MERWE Ja, were you detained, or they detained? MR DLONGWANE No myself. I came there to report and I met the person while he was detained and that person, if I mean his name was here or I had a right to mention his name, he was going to agree with me that he saw me and "I was shocked when I saw you". MR VAN DER MERWE You possibly, Mr Dlongwane, as a suggestion, went there to try and sell a little bit more information and you weren't really an informer or a spy, just tried to go and collect some money. MR DLONGWANE I disagree with you. MR VAN DER MERWE Ja. Your application on page 24, you refer to your propaganda campaign against the ANC and you say "During the years", this is now after all the stuff that happened, "up to and until September 95, I was still involved in a vigorous campaign with the sole purpose of discrediting the ANC". And then the last sentence of that paragraph says: "During this period I also became embroiled in politics and committed various crimes with the intent of opposing the ANC." I thought you had turned your back on the Security establishment in 1986? CHAIRPERSON He didn't say he did it on behalf of the Security Police. I think he also said that the organisation relating to or dealing with exiles had a problem with the ANC. MR VAN DER MERWE That is right, Mr Chairman. I'll actually just leave that. Just one other aspect that I'd like to take up. Now Mr Dlongwane, in short, I don't think it is necessary to go into any further detail. My instructions from my clients are that when you allege - by the way, before I say that, I'd just like to mention to you, there were different codes for informers in the Security Branch of the then period when you allege you were an informer and my instructions are that there were four basic codes. The first code would be OPZ which referred to somebody who was watching the coast, walking up and down, like some of the people were dropped with submarines, watching that, the other informers were OPG, which was informers that were giving evidence per incident, they weren't regular informers. Then there was just a normal OP informer, which is a person which is on the management of infiltrated organisations and then there were RS informers, which were South African Police members, who infiltrated organisations and who would work under cover. Now unfortunately the number you give to us as 446/80 was never used at all by the Security Police according to my instructions, and I'm putting that to you. MR DLONGWANE I disagree with you and the person who gave me the number 1980, he died, Sgt Mosane and I still swear in this house that I was given the number 446/80. MR VAN DER MERWE Until when did you report to Sgt Mosane? For how long did you report to him? How long was he your handler? MR DLONGWANE That was 1980. MR VAN DER MERWE Till when? MR DLONGWANE That was that period of 1980 because 1981 I was in prison. ADV SANDI Sorry Mr van der Merwe. MR DLONGWANE And then he died. ADV SANDI If I can just ask. What were you supposed to do with this number? What was it for? MR DLONGWANE It was my code. My codename. My codename was 446.80 and if then sometimes they talked to each other, they won't mention my code, but they will call me a "bron". ADV SANDI But if you come there, if you come to the Sanlam building offices, they're all going to see you, didn't they know you? MR DLONGWANE Ja. ADV SANDI I mean how did they refer to you when they talked to you when you came to the offices? MR DLONGWANE There was a security gate, then if then maybe I want to see Tongatha, or I want to see Niewoudt, whoever I want to see, maybe I'm meeting a person whom I do not deal with, and then that person will shout and say, "Niewoudt, ...(indistinct) jou bron is hierso by die hek." MR VAN DER MERWE Sorry, Mr Chair. May I just put it to you that nowhere in your application did you ever say that Niewoudt, Roelofse or Tongatha was your handler. You used the term handler with reference to Mosane, is that right? Or Faku. You referred to Faku as your handler at one stage. MR DLONGWANE Yes, it's true. MR VAN DER MERWE But you, nowhere in your application have said that Niewoudt, Roelofse or Tongatha was your handler. Am I right? MR DLONGWANE Tongatha ...(intervention) MR VAN DER MERWE No, no, I'm asking. You nowhere mention this in your application. MR DLONGWANE I said it that very sober, because Niewoudt and Roelofse, they were the senior people, who would instruct the Sergeants ... MR VAN DER MERWE Mr Dlongwane ... MR DLONGWANE And those Sergeants, they were the people that were interacting with me. MR VAN DER MERWE Listen to my question please. From page 1 or page 2 up to page 36 of this application, at no stage do you refer to Niewoudt, Roelofse or Tongatha as your handler. I am right when I'm saying that, I know that. Do you confirm that? MR DLONGWANE I still continue to say I worked for them because all the reports will be going to them. MR VAN DER MERWE It's a simple question. MR DLONGWANE They were my bosses. MR VAN DER MERWE Did you ever refer to them as your handlers in this application, Sir? No. MR DLONGWANE I may mention the fact that a person whom I've been interacting with was Faku, being handled by Faku, but my bosses were Niewoudt and Roelofse. MR VAN DER MERWE Are you going to answer my question? Did you refer to any of them as your handler in this application? MR DLONGWANE I referred that they were my bosses. MR VAN DER MERWE It's very simple Mr Dlongwane. Did you refer to any of them as your handler in this application? MR DLONGWANE At that time I could not regard them as my handlers, but my bosses. MR VAN DER MERWE So today you can regard them as your handlers? MR DLONGWANE And I still say at that time, because I am not working with them presently. MR VAN DER MERWE I should hope so, they're not in the police any more. Mr Dlongwane, your application falls fairly short of the truth and my instructions are that neither Mr Niewoudt or Mr Roelofse had any direct dealings with you, they deny that they gave you instructions to attack or petrol bomb houses of members of the UDF and that should you have been involved in acts like that, you were on a frolic of your own. Do you have any reaction to that? MR DLONGWANE I do not agree with them when they deny their involvement in the bombings and the instructions. MR VAN DER MERWE You see, I need to share this with you. They applied, or not they, Mr Niewoudt applied for various serious matter, some of which amnesty was granted to him and some of which was refused, these would have been a picnic for him to apply for amnesty and he did not apply for them, so I'm telling you he was not involved there. MR DLONGWANE I think the reason why he didn't apply, he thought maybe I died, but I'm back. MR VAN DER MERWE I hope you're sure that it's you that's back, Mr Dlongwane. I have no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VAN DER MERWE MS THABETHE No question. NO QUESTIONS BY MS THABETHE MR FROST No re-examination. NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR FROST CHAIRPERSON Tell me, this Mr Butler Tongatha, was he the one that was sentenced to a term of imprisonment about ten years ago for amongst other things, defeating the ends of justice. They killed children at a school and planted stones in a vehicle. MR DLONGWANE Yes, actually I read about it while I was in Jo'burg at that time. CHAIRPERSON Is it that same Butler? MR DLONGWANE Yes. CHAIRPERSON Where's he today? MR DLONGWANE I don't have any idea. CHAIRPERSON Is he still in the police force? MR DLONGWANE I don't know. CHAIRPERSON One last question that troubles me. You said you wanted to be free in this country. Please explain to me how you were going to be free when you supported the apartheid system. MR DLONGWANE Since I said from the onset that I was in a situation where I had then to betray my principles and for betraying my principles, as I'm sitting here, I regret. CHAIRPERSON I'm not talking about that, you've said all that already. I'm just trying to understand how you thought you're going to be free in your life by opting to support Security Branch and the apartheid system. It confuses me, that. You don't know also? MR DLONGWANE This question is difficult for me. CHAIRPERSON Ja, I also find it difficult. Yes, thank you. WITNESS EXCUSED CHAIRPERSON Mr Frost are there any other witnesses? MR FROST There are no other witnesses, Mr Chair. CHAIRPERSON Any witnesses? MR NYOKA Mr Chairperson, just very briefly. Mrs Hashe only, sorry Mrs Gcina only, regarding that court incident. CHAIRPERSON How long are you going to take, otherwise we can do it tomorrow. MR NYOKA It's going to take 3 minutes only. CHAIRPERSON Are you sure? MR NYOKA Ja, sure. CHAIRPERSON Only her? MR NYOKA Only her only. CHAIRPERSON Alright. Is she going to take the oath? Mr Nyoka, is she going to take the oath? IVY GCINA (sworn states) EXAMINATION BY MR NYOKA Mrs Gcina, can you please tell us briefly what happened in court when there was the trial of Mr Mtatsi and Kolo Makapela and others. What did you witness, very briefly? You heard the applicant denying that he boasted in the corridors. Can you tell the Committee and the audience? MRS GCINA On the day when we were in court, this young man came and I did not know him. When he was amongst the people he said: "I'm wearing a tracksuit and training shoes, new tracksuit and new training shoes. Do you think that I'm going to leave these boers because they're also buying a bottle of brandy for me?", but Chairperson, even so we as the people who were affected by these things that he was doing to us, we do forgive him because these boers were using the people and they would then dump them, especially if they are telling the truth. We do not have a problem, because these are our children, these are our people. Our hearts as parents are sore. We forgive him. Thank you Chairperson. MR NYOKA That is all, Mr Chairperson. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR NYOKA CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR FROST May I just be granted a moment? The applicant informs me that although he previously denied making those comments in the passages of the court, he says that he denies it on the basis that he cannot remember of recall that he said that to you. MRS GCINA Thank you Chairperson. I'm really glad if he recalls his mind about that because really I can never, ever tell a lie about a person, but I was present and I just walked away when he spoke like that, but even so, we forgive him, because really we knew that the system of that has used our people and we will be very proud if he can really speak openly, freely, then to anybody, to anybody, even the people who are denying that they worked with him. We need everyone on this earth to come forward and say we are done, one, two, three. Chairperson, we've got lots of people who disappeared in this country which we knew very well, we don't even know their graves today. Thank you. MR FROST I have no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR FROST MR VAN DER MERWE I have no questions, thank you Chair. NO QUESTIONS BY MR VAN DER MERWE MS THABETHE No questions. NO QUESTION BY MS THABETHE ADV SANDI Sorry Mr Frost, just for my own benefit. When the applicant was being questioned on this particular incident which happened in court, I thought he was categorically denying that such an incident had occurred. I now understand you to say that he does not recall such an incident having happened in court? MR FROST That is so, Mr Chair and Members of the Committee. He did categorically deny it in evidence, but he informs me that, he still denies having said it, he can't believe having said it, but he can't specifically recall. It's really a question of not being able to admit or deny. ADV SANDI I thought he went even further and said he could never have said such a thing. He could never have boasted that the police were providing him with this and that, he said it could never have happened. MR FROST Before I answer that, may I just take instructions? Mr Chair, Members of the Committee, the applicant says it may well be possible that he said something like that, but it is not something that he would have been proud of saying to a person at that stage. CHAIRPERSON Yes, thank your Mrs Gcina. WITNESS EXCUSED CHAIRPERSON Are there any other witnesses Mr Nyoka? Is that the end? Mr van der Merwe have you got any evidence? MR VAN DER MERWE No, Mr Chairman, I have no further witnesses. CHAIRPERSON So that's the end of the evidence. Mr Frost are you able to argue? MR FROST Yes, I am, Mr Chair. MR FROST IN ARGUMENT Mr Chair and Members of the Committee, I will be as brief as possible in argument. It's already been stated in terms of what and it's quite clear for what the applicant applies for amnesty for. He has testified, in his application, to the deeds he committed and for which he applies amnesty. He is the only witness that testified in relation thereto. His relationship with Niewoudt and Roelofse is specifically denied by the representative, Mr van der Merwe, who represents Niewoudt and Roelofse, inter alia. However, those persons are not called as witnesses and its a mere denial by a legal representative, which carries little weight. The applicant has testified under oath. The fact that he has lied on previous occasions under oath, he gave explanations as to why he had lied under oath on previous occasions. He specifically came to this Committee today to make amends, not only with himself, but also with the community and to ask for amnesty from this Committee for those deeds which he committed. It is also so that he was recruited at a very young, or at a young age. He was politically involved in the struggle with organisations before he was recruited. There is nothing inherently improbable about the fact that he was recruited and the fact that he worked for the Security Police. Whether or not he was instructed specifically by Niewoudt or Roelofse, it is my submission, is not as such relevant. The relevant fact for which he applies amnesty, is that he committed those crimes during those periods, specifically bombing the houses of members and then also giving false testimony in the trial of Mr Mtatsi. He was indoctrinated during that period of time. I don't believe that there is any reason to disbelieve his evidence in that regard, that he was part of an indoctrination, that he believe what he was doing was right, that there was a certain amount of propaganda that made him believe that fighting for apartheid was better than fighting for the struggle. It might be difficult to understand why, after one detention, he submitted to the Security Police and started assisting them. He has concede that much that money played a role but it wasn't the major role. His principles let him down and it is not something he's proud of. It is also my submission that it was quite clear that even up until today, he is shy to as such, or embarrassed to admit that his principles let him down, specifically with the statement that was put to him that he made certain comments in the corridors of the court, having been a police informer. It is quite apparent and this I want to submit in favour of the applicant, that Mrs Gcina's evidence supports the fact that he was an informer. If anything, that is objective support of the fact that the applicant was a police informer at that stage, so it's my respectful submission that he hasn't come to this court and has made up a story as to being a police informer. The issue that was made about his informer number, Niewoudt and Roelofse haven't come to testify to say that wasn't, or it's improbable, it was never an informer's number, or he was never and informer and they don't specifically deny that he was an informer in any event. Insofar as the Act is concerned, his application falls within Section 20 (2)(b) read together with (f) and (g) in that he was employed by the State, or at least he believed that he was employed by an organisation of the State and furthered their objectives. He had reasonable grounds to believe that, I would further submit on his behalf and he thus squarely falls within the ambit of section 20(2) of the Act. Insofar as (3) is concerned, that whether a particular act, omission, or offence, contemplated in (2) is an act associated with a political objective, certain criteria exists. First of all, if we look at the motive with which a person committed the act, his motive was not only monetary, he specifically stated that it was also politically motivated, through the propaganda of the Security Police and that he believed at that time, that to be the correct option. Now his evidence has also been that after he was recruited, he was in fact imprisoned for a period of time, for a number of months whereafter he then took up employment at a private company and he was thereafter re-recruited to the Security Police Services, clearly showing that he was, with respect, indoctrinated and that the propaganda had succumb him. He had a job in a private company and his choice is, with respect, indicative that of someone which has succumbed to the propaganda of a particular organisation, the Security Police, who were fighting for apartheid at that stage. The context in which his act is submitted, was during the course of political uprising, the petrol bombing of houses. Although that in its own might not have brought down a political organisation, the person that were targeted were prominent persons and he believed that that would contribute to the political objective of the apartheid regime at that stage, when committing those acts and then also when testifying falsely against Mr Mtatsi. Whether or not he was the only witness who testified against Mr Mtatsi is not relevant. The other persons who testified, what their positions were, might well have been very similar to that of the applicant and no negative inference can be drawn from that fact that he was not the only witness that testified. The nature of the acts that he committed were serious, petrol bombing the houses of persons and then also committing perjury, more specifically not only serious, but very sad that someone had to go to prison for the fact that someone gave false testimony against him, being Mr Mtatsi and other members, but once again, that was done with the same political objective as testified to by the applicant as to which he had committed the other acts inter alia the petrol bombing of houses of certain members of political parties. The acts were also committed in the execution of orders. The petrol bombing of the different houses was in the execution of orders. The applicant associated himself with those petrol bombings, as he's testified to. He was an informer but the fact of the matter is, he was taken with for whatever reason. He was and he contributed actively to some of the petrol bombings in particular houses for which he applies amnesty and the others in which he did not actively partake, where he sat in the kombi. The fact of the matter is, he associated himself actively with that. He could very easily have come to this Committee and said: "Well I was in the kombi on those occasions, I didn't actively associate myself with those acts, only when I actually got out of the kombi and I threw a petrol bomb, am I applying for amnesty." The aspect of a relationship between the act or the offence that was committed and the political objective pursued by the applicant, was the same political objective that was propagated to him by the Security Police. It is quite clear that it's not only Niewoudt and Roelofse that were involved here. He was recruited in 1980 and that the propaganda started at or during 1980 and not only when Niewoudt and Roelofse arrived on the scene. It might have been something trivial to them, in light of the atrocities that they have allegedly committed, as their legal representative put, that this was something minor and had they thought of it as any importance, they would have applied for amnesty, but the applicant feels that it is something of serious nature and therefore he applies for amnesty and has come to tell the truth, both to this Committee and to the public and to the members and families that were involved in those petrol bombings and then also then to Mr Mtatsi. It is also my submission that it can't be said that the applicant is a person that likes to tell lies and that he should therefore be disbelieved. He in fact has nothing really to gain from this application, there are no pending actions or criminal trials pending against him. He has merely come to this Committee to apply for atrocities which he committed for which he is not proud of and it is also my submission that his demeanour, the fact that he was in tears when he stated that he was sorry towards the families and the community for betraying them and betraying his own principles, that he has made a full disclosure and that he should be granted amnesty for the petrol bombings of the houses of the members as applied for and then also for committing perjury during the trial of Mr Mtatsi. Those are my submissions, Mr Chair and Members of the Committee. CHAIRPERSON Mr Nyoka, we don't need to hear you, so too with you Ms Thabethe. That's brings us to the end of the roll. MS THABETHE Certainly, Mr Chair. CHAIRPERSON This is likely to be the last hearing of the Truth and Reconciliation Commission to be held in Port Elizabeth. I wish to thank the persons who were responsible for seeing to our food and refreshments. I wish to thank the interpreters for the work they have done and the efficiency with which they completed their tasks. I want to thank the various representatives who have appeared before us and for their assistance. To the people, the applicants, the victims and public that put their faith in the Commission, I wish to thank you most sincerely. It has become quite clear as we have proceeded with these hearings, that the country needs to reconcile with its history. It seems in certain quarters that this has been resisted and in others, the climate is not conducive for reconciliation. We must though, through every possible measure, encourage the bringing together of all the people of South Africa at all times and not to resort to compartmentalising different groups of people like was done under the apartheid system. We are all people of South Africa and while at times it may be a bitter pill to swallow, we have to start somewhere. This part of the world has a wonderful tradition of non-racialism. It is something to be proud of. Let us lead from this area again. On behalf of the Commission, we hope that life will improve for the people of this country, especially Eastern Cape and we hope that the Commission has, to some extent, helped you come to terms with the past, that it has contributed in no uncertain terms towards a brighter future. I thank you. The hearing is adjourned. HEARING ADJOURNS