amntrans AMNESTY HEARINGS 2000-09-19 PRETORIA 2 ERIC GOOSEN AM4158/96 TWO BOMB ATTACKS ON RESIDENCES IN MAMELODI ASSAULT ON ANC COURIER IN MAMELODI BOMB ATTACK ON RESIDENCE IN SOSHANGUVE https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=54487&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/2000/200919pt.htm ERIC GOOSEN (sworn states) CHAIRPERSON Yes Mr Alberts. EXAMINATION BY MR ALBERTS Thank you, Chairperson. Mr Goosen, you are applying for four incidents which have to be heard presently. MR GOOSEN Yes, that is correct. MR ALBERTS Now as general background to the particular incidents ...(intervention) JUDGE DE JAGER Could you please just give us the four incidents, so that we know from the very beginning what amnesty is being requested for. MR ALBERTS As it pleases you. Mr Goosen, the four incidents involved, three of these appear in bundle 2, is that correct? MR GOOSEN Yes, that is correct, Chairperson. MR ALBERTS The first one of a bomb attack on a residence in Mamelodi and that incident is dealt with from page 25 in bundle 2 before the Committee, up to and including page 32 thereof. MR GOOSEN That is correct. MR ALBERTS The second incident is also a petrol bomb attack in Mamelodi and it follows immediately thereafter in the same bundle, from 33 up to and including 40, is that correct? MR GOOSEN Yes, that is correct. MR ALBERTS The third incident is also one which took place in Mamelodi West, it is an assault on an unknown ANC courier, is that correct? MR GOOSEN Yes, that is correct. MR ALBERTS And this can be found from page 41 up to and including 48 of that bundle. MR GOOSEN That is correct. MR ALBERTS And then the fourth application can be found in what is reputedly bundle 1, the bundle in which there is no number but indeed an index, and which refers to certain extracts from your amnesty application. MR GOOSEN That is correct, Chairperson. MR ALBERTS And from pages 45 up to and including 53, is that correct? MR GOOSEN Yes, that is correct, Chairperson. MR ALBERTS Now that final incident is one which took place in Soshanguve and it is also a bomb attack on a residence, is that correct? MR GOOSEN Yes, that is correct. MR ALBERTS Now as general background to these attacks or these incidents among others, the introductory section of your amnesty application serves for this purpose and can be found in volume 1 from page 1 to 44. MR GOOSEN That is correct. MR ALBERTS Mr Goosen, are you aware of the content of those 44 pages? MR GOOSEN I confirm the content thereof. MR ALBERTS And then in conclusion of your application there is also a short conclusion which can be found in volume 1, immediately after the last incident to which we referred and that can be found on pages 54 up to 57, is that correct? MR GOOSEN Yes, that is correct. MR ALBERTS Do you also confirm the correctness thereof? MR GOOSEN Yes, I confirm the correctness thereof. MR ALBERTS Could we then return to the first incident which is at hand, it is the incident on page 26 or 25 of bundle 2, the bomb attack on a residence in Mamelodi. In terms of your application, the place where it took place was Mamelodi West and more specifically, north of Samaya Street. MR GOOSEN According to my recollection that is correct. MR ALBERTS And the period during which this incident took place appears to be approximately January to April 1986. MR GOOSEN That is correct, Chairperson. MR ALBERTS On page 26 and further you deal with the details pertaining to this particular incident under the heading "Nature and Particulars". MR GOOSEN That is correct, Chairperson. MR ALBERTS And you deal with this up to and including the top of page 29 of the bundle. MR GOOSEN That is correct, Chairperson. MR ALBERTS It is not my intention - because your application regarding this is thorough, it is not my intention to discuss every single aspect with you, I will pause for examination on more significant aspects of your application. Under whose instruction were you involved in this incident? MR GOOSEN I received my order from Brig Jack Cronje and I was under the command of Lieut Jacques Hechter during the operation. MR ALBERTS The instruction that you received from Brig Cronje, why would he have been involved in this? MR GOOSEN He was the Commander of the Security Branch of Northern Transvaal. MR ALBERTS And you were a member there? MR GOOSEN Yes, I was a member of Unit A of that particular Security Branch. MR ALBERTS What was your rank at this point in time? MR GOOSEN I was a Sergeant at that point. MR ALBERTS When for the first time did you become involved in incidents of violence which eventually necessitated your amnesty application? MR GOOSEN This is the first incident in which I was involved in a covert operation of this nature. MR ALBERTS And is this why you were approached by Brig Cronje personally? MR GOOSEN That is correct. MR ALBERTS You have stated that for the purposes of this particular operation you would have fallen under the command of Lieut Hechter. MR GOOSEN That is correct. MR ALBERTS When did he contact you with regard to the planning for this operation? MR GOOSEN Chairperson, on the day that I received the instruction from Brig Cronje to assist Lieut Hechter, without specifying the operation on that very same day, Mr Hechter made contact with me and made an arrangement with me to meet him at a specific time that evening in the parking area of the Northern Transvaal Security Branch. MR ALBERTS And did you meet in that fashion? MR GOOSEN Yes. MR ALBERTS What time that night? MR GOOSEN I suspect that it was approximately midnight. MR ALBERTS Who were all the persons that rendezvoused there? MR GOOSEN In the parking area I found Lieut Hechter and Sgt Deon Gouws, who I met for the first time. MR ALBERTS And was Sgt Gouws a member of the Security Branch or not? MR GOOSEN Chairperson, upon previous evidence that we have given before previous Committees, at that stage he was not involved with Murder and Robbery, he was involved with a special unit, so I did not have my facts correct. MR ALBERTS You've referred to the second paragraph on page 27. MR GOOSEN That is correct. MR ALBERTS What took place after you met? MR GOOSEN In my presence Lieut Hechter attached false number-plates to a silver Ford Cortina Station Wagon, it was a Regulation 80 vehicle, which meant that it was a stolen vehicle of which the owner could not be traced. In many operations such vehicles would be used by the Security Branch. It was also known as an unmarked vehicle. MR ALBERTS Proceed. MR GOOSEN Hechter, Gouws and I drove out to Mamelodi afterwards. Hechter was driving. Somewhere in Mamelodi West we stopped to the north of Samaya Street. Hechter and Gouws disembarked and they were in possession of a tin. I was then requested to man the vehicle and to park it in such a manner that it would be as unobtrusive as possible. During the journey to Mamelodi, Hechter told me that he was in possession of a mellow-yellow, with which it was his intention to blow up a residence. MR ALBERTS Could you just elaborate on this mellow-yellow. MR GOOSEN The mellow-yellow to which has been referred here is a tin which contained flakes of pentolite, with a fuse as the detonator. This is something that I heard subsequently. MR ALBERTS So it was a homemade bomb or sorts, as you have indicated in your application? MR GOOSEN That is correct. MR ALBERTS What took place after the vehicle was parked and so forth? MR GOOSEN Hechter and Gouws left the vehicle, they walked away into the darkness. I could not see precisely into which street they were walking. Later I lost sight of them as they moved away from the vehicle. After a few minutes I heard an explosion and shortly afterwards Hechter and Gouws came running toward the vehicle. MR ALBERTS And you continue with your application to state that you left the scene immediately. MR GOOSEN That is correct. We left the scene immediately and drove back to the Compol building. MR ALBERTS Do you know whether this bomb caused any damage? MR GOOSEN Chairperson, as indicated, I remained in the vehicle. I simply heard the sound of the explosion, so I'm unaware which target was targeted during the explosion and whether or not people were injured. MR ALBERTS Did it come to your knowledge during this operation what the purpose with the operation was? Was it ever said to you? MR GOOSEN No specific indications were revealed to me regarding which activist would be the target of the operation and what the objective of the operation was to be. MR ALBERTS In this regard you had to rely upon your superiors? MR GOOSEN That is correct. MR ALBERTS But you knew that Brig Cronje himself had approved whatever the plan was? MR GOOSEN That is correct, I received my orders directly from the Brigadier and later I received further instructions from Hechter. MR ALBERTS You knew prior to the time that in all probability a bomb explosion would follow. Certainly you were aware that something like this was dangerous? MR GOOSEN Yes, that's correct. CHAIRPERSON Sorry Mr Alberts, if I could just intervene briefly while it's in my mind. What did Brig Cronje say to you when he spoke to you personally earlier that day? What sort of instruction did he give to you? MR GOOSEN Chairperson, the order that I received from the Brigadier was to assist Hechter with a specific operation. No details were given to me. I waited for Hechter to contact me and then I would receive further instructions. CHAIRPERSON So essentially you weren't involved in the planning, you didn't know who the target was, you were basically just the driver of the vehicle? MR GOOSEN That is correct, Chairperson, initially I was not the driver, on the way to Mamelodi West, Hechter himself drove and subsequently I was supposed to man the vehicle. CHAIRPERSON But then left you in the car? MR ALBERTS That's correct, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Sorry Mr Alberts. MR ALBERTS Did the realisation set in with you before the operation was executed, that damage could be caused by the bomb or that persons could be injured or killed with it? MR GOOSEN As I've already indicated Chairperson, on the way to Mamelodi, Hechter briefly informed me that a residence was to be blown up and that the bomb to which he referred as a mellow-yellow would be used. At that point when the facts were disclosed to me, I realised that property or life could be damaged or injured or killed as a result of it and I associated myself with the rest of the operation. MR ALBERTS In the pages from 29 to 32 you deal with the political objective and motivation and so forth, do you confirm the correctness thereof? MR GOOSEN That is correct, Chairperson. And I just want to state at this point that on 31 October 1996, I made an attempt after I returned physically to Mamelodi, to try to trace the physical address to include this in my amnesty application, but I was unsuccessful in my attempts to identify the place where I had parked that evening. MR ALBERTS And then finally Mr Goosen, you apply with regard to this particular incident, for amnesty regarding murder, malicious damage to property, arson, offences with regard to Act 26/56. Can you recall what this has to do with? MR GOOSEN It is the possession of explosives. MR ALBERTS And conspiracy with regard to the aforementioned offences. MR GOOSEN Correct. MR ALBERTS And then finally, any other offence or delict which may emanate from your involvement in this case. MR GOOSEN That's correct, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON But do you know if anybody died? MR GOOSEN Chairperson, I myself was not there when the bomb was thrown into the premises and subsequently no revelations were made to me of any casualties. I can just state that I was placed with Unit 8(?) at that stage, we worked primarily with activists, white, Coloureds and Indians. It was not my task and function to visit Mamelodi as such, to determine whether or not there had been any casualties. So it was beyond my framework. CHAIRPERSON So when you apply for amnesty for murder, you're just taking the worst scenario, the theoretical worse scenario, although you don't know whether there is in fact murder involved? MR GOOSEN I was advised as such. CHAIRPERSON Yes, it would probably be any - if amnesty is granted, any offence or delict arising out of the use of that explosive device at that place at that time. MR ALBERTS I would submit that in the circumstances that would most probably be the most appropriate course. Mr Chairman, that then disposes of the first incident, I don't know whether for purposes of ... we should possibly interrupt going on directly to the second one if there's any cross-examination in this regard. CHAIRPERSON I think let's finish his evidence-in-chief and then take it from there, Mr Alberts, it will be more convenient that way. MR ALBERTS Very well. Thank you, Mr Chairman. Mr Goosen, the following incident appears on page 33 and further, it is also a petrol bomb attack on a residence in Mamelodi, also to the north of Samaya Street in Mamelodi West, and during the same period in time, January to April 1986. Is that correct? MR GOOSEN Yes, that is correct to the best of my recollection. MR ALBERTS And with regard to this incident, are you also applying for the same offences and/or delicts as what we have discussed with the previous incident? MR GOOSEN That is correct. MR ALBERTS On page 34 the nature and particulars of the particular incident commence, if we could just begin there. How did you become involved in this incident? MR GOOSEN I cannot recall how long after the first incident with Mr Hechter, but if - or I was once again approached by Lieut Hechter to assist with another operation. MR ALBERTS And were you or were you not aware that this operation which he had in mind had also been approved by Brig Cronje or any other superior officer? MR GOOSEN In our initial discussion I deduced that this particular operation had been planned with the approval and sanction of Brig Jack Cronje and that it would be executed as such. MR ALBERTS Did Lieut Hechter have more-or-less the same working method in this operation as what we have heard of during the previous operation, namely that he arranged a previous meeting and that you departed from that point onwards? MR GOOSEN Yes. I must just state at that the stage when I was approached by Hechter no details of the particular operation were disclosed to me. MR ALBERTS Did you meet again later that same evening? MR GOOSEN Chairperson, on the designated time that evening we met once again in the parking area behind the Volksstem building and during the rendezvous, Lieut Hechter was there and Deon Gouws was also present. The same silver Ford Station Wagon was once again used. It was once again fitted with false number-plates. After we climbed into the vehicle I noticed a box in the back of the station wagon, containing approximately six petrol bombs. I do not know who manufactured these bombs, but I suspect that it would have been Mr Hechter. MR ALBERTS Could you give us a brief description of every petrol bomb? MR GOOSEN Some of the petrol bombs were furnished with a fuse and some of the others did not have a fuse. CHAIRPERSON Were they in glass bottles? INTERPRETER The speaker's microphone. MR GOOSEN They were in glass bottles. MR ALBERTS Very well. And where did you depart to? MR GOOSEN Once again we travelled to Mamelodi and we parked in a specific place. I can only recall that Mamelodi was not very familiar to me at that point because my work was not focused on Mamelodi, but on suburbs such as Laudium and other suburbs in the greater Pretoria environment. MR ALBERTS And as you were under way to this point did you speak about what you were planning to do or what you were about to do? MR GOOSEN During the journey in the car, Lieut Hechter was driving and he once again stated that an identified target had been identified and it was clear that it was an activists who was active on many fronts. I can no longer recall the name of the particular person, if it was ever disclosed to me. He was apparently a youth organiser who was responsible for stay-away actions at the schools and general intimidation of the various black council members. ADV SIGODI Could you speak a little bit slower so that we can keep up with the interpretation as well, because she's got to speak fast now. MR ALBERTS Was there anything else regarding this person in public? MR GOOSEN Lieut Hechter told me further that this particular youth organiser had been involved in numerous petrol bomb attacks on the homes of black council members and other black persons who were supporting the existing State dispensation. MR ALBERTS Is this why Lieut Hechter remarked to you that the target would have to receive a bit of his own medicine, as you have stated in your application? MR GOOSEN That is correct, I assume so. MR ALBERTS What happened after you had entered the area surrounding the target place? MR GOOSEN The vehicle was parked, Hechter, Gouws and myself disembarked from the vehicle. Every one of us was armed with two petrol bombs, of which one was furnished with a fuse and the others not. INTERPRETER The speaker's microphone please. JUDGE DE JAGER If you could please go a bit slower, otherwise the Interpreter cannot interpret what you are saying. ...(intervention) INTERPRETER The speaker's microphone is not on. JUDGE DE JAGER If you could just take us to the important points, it is not necessary for the applicant to reiterate the entire statement. MR ALBERTS Thank you, Chairperson. I will attempt ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON I think if you could, seeing that we've got to this part, if you could just describe exactly where the bombs were thrown or what the house looked like, whether they threw it through open windows or down the chimney, or whatever. MR ALBERTS Very well. You, Hechter and Gouws approached the house and in what ways did you proceed with the bomb attack? MR GOOSEN To the best of my recollection, Chairperson, three different windows of the particular residence were targeted. Firstly, the petrol bombs which were not fitted with the fuses were thrown through the windows and afterwards the remaining petrol bomb with the fuse, which was in possession of every person, was lit and these bombs were also thrown through the broken windows. MR ALBERTS And did you then run away? MR GOOSEN Yes, that is correct. Immediately after the completion of the petrol bomb attack we ran back to the vehicle and we returned to Pretoria. CHAIRPERSON And as far as you were concerned, the bombs worked, you saw fire or evidence of fire? MR GOOSEN That is correct, Chairperson, the fire was inside the residence. MR ALBERTS Do you know whether anyone was injured because of this? MR GOOSEN I am unaware whether anyone was killed or injured during this incident, Chairperson. MR ALBERTS But you accept that there was damage done by the fire that was caused by the bombs? MR GOOSEN I accept that there was damage done and I also foresaw that if someone was in the house during the attack, that that person could be killed or injured by our acts. MR ALBERTS And you associated yourself with that? MR GOOSEN That is correct, Chairperson. MR ALBERTS With regard to the rest of the application, do you confirm the contents of pages 37 to 40? MR GOOSEN That is correct, Chairperson. MR ALBERTS Then we can continue to the third incident, Mr Goosen. This appears on page 41 and further. This is also an incident that had taken place in Mamelodi West, it entails the assault of an unknown ANC courier. It is on page 138 of your own application. According to your application this was during the time period June to December 1987, do you recall this incident? MR GOOSEN I recall it yes, Chairperson. MR ALBERTS How did you become involved in this assault? MR GOOSEN Chairperson, as it appears from my application before you, I indicated that I received an instruction from Capt Flip Loots, and I would also like to add that during consultation with Mr Momberg who forms part of the legal team, it became clear that I had received the instruction from him, Lieut Momberg and that he had taken up the issue with Capt Loots and from there W/O Paul van Vuuren became involved. MR ALBERTS So where does W/O van Vuuren fit into the whole picture? MR GOOSEN Paul van Vuuren worked at Unit B, of which Capt Loots was the Commander and at that stage I was with Unit A, of which Lieut Momberg was the Commander. MR ALBERTS So if I understand you correctly, the instruction came from Capt Loots via Lieut Momberg to you? MR GOOSEN No, Chairperson, the instruction - the request came from the Security Branch Witwatersrand, Sgt Bennie Knoetze had attended a course about one or two weeks before that and Witwatersrand established a needs list, Momberg agreed to supply assistance. I was involved by Capt Momberg, or Lieut Momberg. He discussed the matter with Capt Loots and Capt Loots tasked Paul van Vuuren to give assistance. MR ALBERTS So what was the purpose of this operation? MR GOOSEN The Security Branch John Vorster Square had a female informer who had information about an ANC courier who was in Mamelodi. MR ALBERTS And what did they wish to achieve on that particular day? MR GOOSEN So that the female informer of John Vorster Square could do the identification of the address and the person who would be an ANC courier. MR ALBERTS And would you then question the courier? MR GOOSEN It was not conveyed to us in so many words, but we had to assist in a supportive role for John Vorster Square. MR ALBERTS For whatever they wanted to do with the courier or whatever the information they wanted from him. MR GOOSEN That is correct, Chairperson. MR ALBERTS Very well. Was the house then pointed out to you? MR GOOSEN Chairperson, we met the members from John Vorster Square at Compol building and from there we went to Mamelodi. The informer had indeed pointed out the house to us as that being that address of the alleged ANC courier. MR ALBERTS Did you enter this house? MR GOOSEN That is correct, Chairperson, Paul van Vuuren, one of John Vorster Square's members and I entered and the house. MR ALBERTS Did you find the alleged courier or not? MR GOOSEN The alleged courier was found in the house. Initially we checked the house and we did not find him, but later we found him in one of the rooms. MR ALBERTS And how did you know that he was the courier? MR GOOSEN The informer mentioned the name to us. I cannot recall the name of the courier. Upon enquiries in the house, a male person indicated that he was the same person that the female source was the ANC courier. MR ALBERTS Was the courier interrogated? MR GOOSEN That's correct, Chairperson, initially he was questioned and we came up with nothing, he denied everything. Thereafter we struck him in the face and on the chest in order to convince him to tell the truth, or to admit that he was a courier. MR ALBERTS Who is this "us" that you are referring to? MR GOOSEN The assault was undertaken by myself and Paul van Vuuren. CHAIRPERSON Did you use anything to assault the suspected courier with? Did you use any instrument or just your hands or fist? MR GOOSEN Chairperson, the open hand and closed fists we used. MR ALBERTS Was that initially how you went about it? MR GOOSEN That is correct, Chairperson. MR ALBERTS Because on page 44 of your application you mention that there was an intensification in the extent of the violence that you used on him. MR GOOSEN Yes, Chairperson, the extent was one or two kicks. MR ALBERTS And in the following paragraph you mention that you continued, you had punched him with fists to the face and one or two kicks. MR GOOSEN That is correct, Chairperson. MR ALBERTS Now this intensified assault, did this give you any positive results? MR GOOSEN None whatsoever, Chairperson. MR ALBERTS What did you do then? MR GOOSEN We removed the person from the house. We visited the address with two vehicles, the one vehicle was my own, a State vehicle used by me and the other vehicle was one of John Vorster's vehicles. We took the person to my vehicle and placed him into the boot of my vehicle. MR ALBERTS Why did you do that? MR GOOSEN At that stage we did not want anyone to know that we were abducting the person and secondly, we were on our way to Compol building and we did not want to disclose the address to him. Although in application I do say that we went to my flat, but on our way to the Compol building we stopped at my flat, so that I could make a call. MR ALBERTS And who did you call? MR GOOSEN I called Lieut Momberg and gave him a situation report with regard to the incident there. MR ALBERTS And did you receive any further instructions from him? MR GOOSEN That is correct, Chairperson, he instructed me to take the person back to Mamelodi immediately because it was not our operation, and at that stage there was no information to indicate that he was indeed an ANC courier. MR ALBERTS And did you follow these instructions? MR GOOSEN Yes, I did, Chairperson. MR ALBERTS Were did you leave the person, this courier? MR GOOSEN Is this now in Mamelodi, after we took him back? MR ALBERTS Yes. MR GOOSEN We took him to a remote field next to the road. MR ALBERTS And what was his condition at that stage? You'll find that on page 142 of your application. MR GOOSEN The courier had clear injuries to his face, his mouth was bleeding, his cheeks were swollen, his eyes were swollen shut and he had bruises on his chest. MR ALBERTS You also mention that he was disorientated when you last saw him. MR GOOSEN That is correct, Chairperson. MR ALBERTS And then you continue on paginated pages 45 and 46 and you deal with the objective of the removal and assault of this person. Do you confirm the correctness thereof? MR GOOSEN Yes, I do Chairperson. MR ALBERTS Do you also confirm the rest of this part that deals with your application up to page 49? MR GOOSEN That is correct, Chairperson. MR ALBERTS Now Paul van Vuuren also applied for this incident and amnesty has already been granted to him, have you read the parts of his application with regard to this incident? You'll find this on page 143 to 146 of volume 2. Did you have a look at this? MR GOOSEN Yes, Chairperson. MR ALBERTS And in general this concurs with your evidence? MR GOOSEN That is correct, Chairperson. MR ALBERTS Afterwards you had trouble from Brig Cronje, both you and Van Vuuren, can you recall that? MR GOOSEN Yes. MR ALBERTS What was that about? MR GOOSEN The following morning Van Vuuren and I were called into Brig Cronje's office and this followed on a call that Brig Cronje received from the Commander of the John Vorster Square Security Branch, where members of the Witwatersrand mentioned that we had assaulted the person to get the necessary information. MR ALBERTS Mr van Vuuren on page 144, mentions the facts, he says that the Brigadier was concerned that the person could be killed because he was severely assaulted. Afterwards it was determined that it was not so. Do you have any personal knowledge of this? MR GOOSEN No, I do not Chairperson. MR ALBERTS In this regard in your application you apply for amnesty with regard to, amongst others, assault with the intent to do grievous harm and abduction and any other delicts which may emanate from the facts, is that correct? MR GOOSEN That is correct, Chairperson. I would also like to add that once again on the 31st of October 1996, I had attempted to find the exact address or to find the particulars of the person there, but I was unsuccessful. MR ALBERTS Chairperson, might I just mention that the decision in regard to the Van Vuuren application, which concerns the same incident, appears at pages 126 and 127 of this bundle. Amnesty has been granted to him already. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. MR ALBERTS Mr Goosen, I shall go over to the last incident in which you were involved. This appears in volume 1, from pages 45 and following, page 118 and following from your own application. This incident is with regard to a bomb attack on a house in Soshanguve, during the time period, September to November 1986. Do you recall that? MR GOOSEN That is correct, Chairperson. MR ALBERTS Do you recall the address of the house in Soshanguve? MR GOOSEN I do not recall the exact address, and as I've already said, on the 31st of October 1996, I also tired here to determine the address here but I was unsuccessful, Chairperson. MR ALBERTS How did you become involved in this incident, who approached you? MR GOOSEN I was once again approached by Lieut Hechter to assist with an operation. MR ALBERTS Where did you meet Hechter for purposes of the execution of this operation? MR GOOSEN Once again in the parking area behind Compol. The time and date I cannot recall though. MR ALBERTS Who was involved in the incident, except for Lieut Hechter? MR GOOSEN Lieut van Jaarsveld and Sgt Joe Mamasela. MR ALBERTS What happened there at the meeting, at the place where you met? MR GOOSEN This time a Skyline motor vehicle was used - Lieut Hechter came there with a Skyline vehicle, he removed three AK47 rifles from the boot, as well as a mellow-yellow bomb. MR ALBERTS What did he do with the rifles? MR GOOSEN An AK was given to myself, Van Jaarsveld and Mamasela and he kept the bomb with him. MR ALBERTS And how did you go to Soshanguve? MR GOOSEN We used Lieut Jaap van Jaarsveld's vehicle, it was a grey/charcoal coloured Volkswagen Golf that had false Lesotho number-plates. MR ALBERTS You say Van Jaarsveld drove? MR GOOSEN That is correct, Chairperson. MR ALBERTS Did you know what the target would be of this operation? MR GOOSEN Chairperson, not at the stage when we met but on our way to Soshanguve, Hechter informed us what the target would be. MR ALBERTS Can you recall what he told you? MR GOOSEN Amongst others, that this was a leading activist who in a violent manner managed the people's court in Soshanguve and at that stage, according to indications from Mamasela, he was involved in the recruitment of youths who intended to go abroad for military training. MR ALBERTS What was the primary objective of this operation? MR GOOSEN Chairperson, the fact that to each of us an AK was given and the fact that a bomb was present, I drew no other inference that this person would be eliminated. MR ALBERTS And did Lieut Hechter tell you with regard to this purpose, anything else? MR GOOSEN If the bomb attack was not successful to kill this person, that he would be shot dead. MR ALBERTS Was that the instruction? MR GOOSEN That is correct, Chairperson. MR ALBERTS How was the operation executed? How did you find the particular house and what happened afterwards? MR GOOSEN A way from the house we stopped, Van Jaarsveld, myself and Mamasela, took up position with the AKs around the house and Hechter approached the house and threw the bomb through a window. MR ALBERTS You say that you suspect it was thrown into the lounge. MR GOOSEN It is a suspicion, it was the front of the house and I would deduce that it was the lounge. MR ALBERTS And after the bomb was thrown, what happened then? MR GOOSEN Hechter turned around and ran away, the rest of us still remained in our positions. The bomb exploded. It was quite a large explosion. MR ALBERTS And on page 49 you refer to it as a tremendous explosion. MR GOOSEN That is correct, Chairperson. MR ALBERTS Do you know whether the person was targeted was hit by this explosion? MR GOOSEN Chairperson, my recollection, I did not see it myself, but Van Jaarsveld told us that moments after the bomb exploded a male person, possibly the activist, had ran out the back door of the house and had jumped over the fence. MR ALBERTS And were shots fired at this person? MR GOOSEN No, Chairperson. According to Van Jaarsveld things happened so quickly that he could not fire a shot. MR ALBERTS In your application you mention that the operation failed in its primary objective, namely the killing of this identified person. MR GOOSEN That is correct, Chairperson. MR ALBERTS Do you know whether there was any other loss of life because of the explosion? MR GOOSEN No, Chairperson, I did not get feedback from anyone that anyone else had been killed and/or injured in the explosion and I was also unaware whether the activist had been alone in the house or whether other persons were present, but we associated ourselves with the operation, the elimination of the activist. MR ALBERTS And you must have realised that other persons could have been injured or killed in the process. MR GOOSEN That is correct, Chairperson. MR ALBERTS But you do not know whether this had happened or not. MR GOOSEN No, Chairperson. MR ALBERTS Do you know whether Brig Cronje was aware or involved in the planning and execution of this operation? MR GOOSEN I can only accept that this operation was discussed between Capt Hechter and Brig Cronje and that it would have been sanctioned by him, like all other previous operations that were launched by Capt Hechter. MR ALBERTS We know by this time, it's a well known fact that Brig Cronje would take responsibility for all these actions by all his subordinates in any case. So you apply for amnesty with regard to the following offences: attempted murder. We may have to consider murder here, even if only on a theoretical level, malicious damage to property, arson. Have you anything to say in that regard? MR GOOSEN Chairperson, at that stage I was already a fully trained explosives expert and in many cases where bombs exploded it leads to the burning of the carpets and curtains and so forth. MR ALBERTS And you also apply - amongst others, you mention under the offences, Act 26/56. MR GOOSEN That is the Explosives Act. MR ALBERTS And any offences connected with that Act. MR GOOSEN That is correct. MR ALBERTS You also request amnesty with regard to the possession of an unlicensed firearm, what is that about? MR GOOSEN Chairperson, at that stage the AK47s were not licensed firearms or used as official firearms. MR ALBERTS And you also mention transgressions of the Act on Arms and Ammunitions. MR GOOSEN That is correct, Chairperson. MR ALBERTS And any other offences or delicts which might emanate from the facts. MR GOOSEN That is correct, Chairperson. MR ALBERTS Mr Goosen, do you confirm the correctness of the contents of the pages from page 50 up to 53? MR GOOSEN That is correct, Chairperson. MR ALBERTS Of bundle 2. And we have already dealt with the conclusive remarks from page 54 to 57. MR GOOSEN That is correct, Chairperson. MR ALBERTS Thank you, Chairperson, I have no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR ALBERTS CHAIRPERSON Thank you, Mr Alberts. Mr du Plessis, do you have any questions you'd like to put to Mr Goosen? CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR DU PLESSIS Yes Mr Chairman, thank you, just one. Mr Goosen, as I understand your evidence the instruction actually came from Brig Cronje, but it was conveyed to you by Capt Loots, is that correct? In the courier incident, the incident that you testified about, the ANC courier and the assaults. MR GOOSEN No, Chairperson, the instruction Lieut Hechter gave to me, or Lieut Momberg rather. As I have explained, he and Knoetze went on a course, Bennie Knoetze called Momberg, he involved me in the story, he discussed the whole story with Capt Flip Loots. MR DU PLESSIS Very well, that is what I wanted to know. So your evidence is not that Capt Loots gave any instruction before the operation itself? MR GOOSEN That is correct, Chairperson. MR DU PLESSIS And in other words, Capt Loots also did not know that you would assault the person or do anything unlawful with him? MR GOOSEN No, Chairperson, neither Capt Loots nor Lieut Momberg gave us a direct instruction which would move us to assaulting or abducting the man, but on previous occasions I have said before the Committee that it was expected of us to, in particular circumstance, show initiative and to take immediate decisions to a handle a situation. MR DU PLESSIS Thank you, Chairperson. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR DU PLESSIS CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Mr Lamey, any questions? CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR LAMEY Thank you, Chairperson, just one or two. Mr Goosen, can you recall who came in the place of Sgt Coetser after he withdrew himself from certain types of these acts? MR GOOSEN Chairperson, I was aware that Mr Coetser experienced a problem with further participance in such covert operations and I do not know whether I was the first or the fourth member after Mr Coetser's withdrawal, but I think he was approached by the Brigadier to play an assisting role. MR LAMEY The question I actually want to get to is, except for the first time when you received the direct instruction from Brig Cronje, you were involved by Lieut Hechter in the other incident, in the Mamelodi incident and the Soshanguve incident. MR GOOSEN That is correct, Chairperson. MR LAMEY You as subordinate, did you accept the instruction on the assumption that the information had already been gathered, the time had already been determined? MR GOOSEN That is correct, Chairperson. MR LAMEY And then you referred briefly to Mr Gouws, I infer from your evidence that there was a previous incident that had been heard where this aspect had been cleared up with regard to the unit where he was, before he became involved in the incident, is that correct? MR GOOSEN That is correct, Chairperson. MR LAMEY With regard to that, is it correct, it's my instructions from Mr Gouws that he was devolved to the Security Branch, although he was with another unit at Head Office at that stage? MR GOOSEN That is what I heard later, Chairperson, and my understanding was that he was at Murder and Robbery Unit while he was devolved to the Security Branch Northern Transvaal. MR LAMEY Yes, my instructions are that he later joined Murder and Robbery in that year. MR GOOSEN I would accept that, Chairperson. MR LAMEY Thank you, Chairperson, I have no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR LAMEY CHAIRPERSON Mr Visser, any questions you'd like to put? NO QUESTIONS BY MR VISSER CHAIRPERSON Ms Coleridge, any questions? MS COLERIDGE Yes, thank you Chairperson. Chairperson, I just want to know whether this is a convenient time to adjourn, or shall I ... CHAIRPERSON I think let's conclude the evidence of Mr Goosen, unless you anticipate to be very, very long. CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS COLERIDGE No, Chairperson. Thank you. I just want to refer to the Mamelodi incident - no the ANC courier incident. You stated that Calla Botha was also involved in this incident, do you know which branch Calla Botha belonged to? MR GOOSEN Chairperson, that is correct, Calla Botha as well as Bennie Knoetze and another member who is unknown to me, were at that stage attached to John Vorster Square Security Branch in Johannesburg. CHAIRPERSON Was Calla Botha the person who went into the house with you? MR GOOSEN No, Chairperson, when we climbed over the gate of the residence, Calla injured his foot or his leg and he remained at the vehicle. MS COLERIDGE The Soshanguve incident, you said you were all given AK47s, what happened to your AK47 after the incident? MR GOOSEN Chairperson, immediately after our return to Pretoria, in the parking area behind the Volksstem building, these particular AKs were all returned to Lieut Hechter. MS COLERIDGE And then just in relation to Mr Momberg, was he your Commander at the time of the incident involving the ANC courier? MR GOOSEN That is correct Chairperson, he was my Commander in Unit A where I was placed. MS COLERIDGE Thank you, Chairperson, I have no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS COLERIDGE CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Mr Alberts any re-examination? NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR ALBERTS CHAIRPERSON Judge de Jager, any questions? Advocate Sigodi, any questions? ADV SIGODI Yes, just one aspect that I'd like to clarify in my mind. You say that after you had taken this person and put him in the boot, the ANC courier incident, you stopped at your flat and then you called Momberg to give him a report on what had happened. Now you mentioned that you had trouble from Mr Cronje, you, that is you and Van Vuuren, and Cronje was angry with you because you had assaulted the person, do you know where he got the information from about the assault? MR GOOSEN Chairperson, as I've already indicated, the Commander of the Security Branch in John Vorster Square Johannesburg contacted the Brigadier the next morning. The other reason or contributing factor for Mr Cronje's dissatisfaction was that we were involved with an operation regarding which we had not established and confirmed the information prior to our involvement and that we relied upon information which the members from John Vorster Square Johannesburg gave us. ADV SIGODI So do you know if he knows the person who had been assaulted? Is it possible to trace the person who had been assaulted, the person who was an ANC courier? MR GOOSEN Chairperson, as already indicated, on the 31st of October 1996, I made an attempt firstly, to identify the premises and secondly, I made an attempt to get to the victim, but it was unsuccessful from my side. ADV SIGODI Okay, thanks. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Any questions arising? Mr Goosen, we believe that a victim is only going to be arriving after lunch and it's in relation to one of the Mamelodi incidents, we don't know if it's one of the incidents which you've now described, but if you could please just be on standby in case there's a need to recall you to give further details about a particular bombing. If that victim has a particular interest. Thank you. WITNESS EXCUSED CHAIRPERSON We'll now take the lunch adjournment. I think if we can take it till about quarter to two, if that would be convenient. Oh, the victim's only coming at two, we may as well make it till 2 o'clock then. MS COLERIDGE All rise. COMMITTEE ADJOURNS