amntrans AMNESTY HEARINGS 2000-09-27 CAPE TOWN 16 https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=54493&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/2000/200927ct.htm CHAIRPERSON Morning everybody. We'll continue with the CCB hearing. Has it been decided who the next applicant's going to be Mr du Plessis. MR DU PLESSIS Yes, Mr Chairman, he's ready to give evidence. LEON A MAREE (sworn states) CHAIRPERSON Thank you. MR P DU PLESSIS Thank you Mr Chairman. EXAMINATION BY MR P DU PLESSIS Mr Maree you are an applicant in this matter for amnesty in terms of the National Unity and Reconciliation Act 34 of 95 in regard to an incident regarding Gavin Evans, is that correct? MR MAREE That is correct. MR P DU PLESSIS And your application was filed on the 2nd of December 1996. It's dated the 2nd of November 96, is that correct? MR MAREE That is so. MR P DU PLESSIS Now also as far as you're concerned, you initially applied in terms of the first Act, number 35 of 1990, the "Wet of Vrywaring", is that correct? MR MAREE That is correct. MR P DU PLESSIS Sorry, yes while we're busy, do you prefer speaking English or Afrikaans? MR MAREE No, it's irrelevant. MR P DU PLESSIS Mr Chairman, can I just sort this out with the applicant. CHAIRPERSON Mr Maree, it's your choice, whatever language you want to speak, please feel free to do so. MR MAREE Very well, I will give evidence in Afrikaans and English with cross-examination. CHAIRPERSON Speak to Mr du Plessis, maybe he has ... MR P DU PLESSIS Thank you Mr Chairman, it's sorted out, he will give his evidence-in-chief in Afrikaans and he will answer the cross-examination in English, where applicable, from Mr Kahanovitz. CHAIRPERSON We won't hold you to that Mr Maree. If you want to at any stage speak Afrikaans or English, that's up to you. MR MAREE Thank you Mr Chairman. MR P DU PLESSIS Very well Mr Maree let us then speak Afrikaans at this stage. So you made that initial application in terms of the Act that is dated the 28th March? MR MAREE That is correct, yes. MR P DU PLESSIS Concerning that application, there was no formal reply to it. MR MAREE No, none at all. MR P DU PLESSIS But later you did receive notice that in terms of the Act, in terms of further indemnity, that this first application of yours was referred to the hearing of two Judges in Bloemfontein and indeed it was done on the 9th of December 1993, where you were then represented by Attorney Havenga and Juri Wessels and they argued on behalf of you. Were you present there? MR MAREE No, I wasn't. MR P DU PLESSIS Well, also concerning this, there was no feedback in terms of the publication of the indemnity in the Government Gazette and then the next step was that in terms of the Act of 34/95, you apply for amnesty? MR MAREE That is correct. MR P DU PLESSIS And this is now in terms of the incident around Gavin Evans? MR MAREE That is correct. MR P DU PLESSIS Now this application of yours, it's now this application that is serving in front of the Commission at this stage? MR MAREE That is correct. MR P DU PLESSIS And you were then assisted by Adv Swiegelaar and you application is in the form of, or with your annexures dated 28th of March 1991, is that correct? MR MAREE Yes. MR P DU PLESSIS We will come back to this at a later stage. Very well, before we then deal with the matter as such, I think it is necessary for us to allow you to continue and explain to us in your own words, what the background was. The first issue that I'd like to deal with is your own personal background. I assume you are a South African citizen and that you grew up in Natal? CHAIRPERSON Mr du Plessis, you heard that? MR MAREE I seem to be the culprit. CHAIRPERSON Yes. MR P DU PLESSIS You grew up in Natal? MR MAREE That is correct. I grew up and schooled in Port Shepstone. I then joined the police in 1971 and I finished school in 1970. MR P DU PLESSIS If you could just slow down for the interpreter. MR MAREE I apologise. Directly after school I joined the Police Force and I went to the Police College in Pretoria. MR P DU PLESSIS We are now talking about 1970, is that correct? MR MAREE Yes. MR P DU PLESSIS Continue. MR MAREE From there, after the Police College, I went to Pietermaritzburg, from there to Empangeni and from Empangeni Detective Branch to the Brixton Murder and Robbery Unit. MR P DU PLESSIS What year would this be where you joined the Brixton Murder and Robbery Unit? MR MAREE It was in 1978 or 79. MR P DU PLESSIS You were then attached to the Brixton Murder and Robbery Unit up until 1988, is that correct? MR MAREE Yes. MR P DU PLESSIS What was your rank when you started your service? MR MAREE I was a Warrant Officer. MR P DU PLESSIS I would just like to deal with the circumstances around the fact that you then left the Police Service. Can you just in short explain this to us? MR MAREE I investigated a murder case or a few murders where the suspects that I identified were Mr le Grange, a former Captain of Murder and Robbery and Robert van der Merwe who was also at the Brixton Murder and Robbery Unit. MR P DU PLESSIS It was the murder of drug smugglers. MR MAREE Yes. I made my presentation to the Commander. MR P DU PLESSIS Who was the Commander? MR MAREE It was Col Burger. MR P DU PLESSIS This is now Staal Burger who is also an applicant in this matter? MR MAREE Yes. Because Capt le Grange was an officer, the dossier was taken from me and then handed over to Pretoria for further investigations. MR P DU PLESSIS This Capt le Grange as you've already mentioned, was then an officer at the Brixton Murder and Robbery. MR MAREE He was a former Captain at Brixton, but he was then part of the East Rand at that stage. MR P DU PLESSIS But if you say Brixton Murder and Robbery, you say that you knew him? MR MAREE Yes. MR P DU PLESSIS And that is the reason why the file was taken from you? MR MAREE Well, I assume so, yes. MR P DU PLESSIS What - this whole matter round le Grange, what led to it? MR MAREE Well, there was certain communication between the Attorney-General's office and certain members at Brixton and also at Head Office, they were asked to transfer certain people and I was amongst them. MR P DU PLESSIS Where were you transferred to? MR MAREE I was transferred to the Durban Murder and Robbery Unit. MR P DU PLESSIS So once again, it was a Murder and Robbery branch. Was this seen as a reflection on your capacity and your impartiality? MR MAREE Yes. I believed it was not because I did anything wrong in the investigation. MR P DU PLESSIS Did you then indeed accept that transfer to Durban? MR MAREE Yes, initially I did when I was called to Pretoria, but in the interim stage I was then approached by Col Burger. MR P DU PLESSIS Well, this now includes the recruitment for the CCB. If you can just continue and tell us what happened then. MR MAREE Col Burger then approached me and asked me if I was interested in joining the Special Forces, Special Forces asked him to do certain recruitments. MR P DU PLESSIS Special Forces of whom? MR MAREE The South African Defence Force. MR P DU PLESSIS It was then known as the "recce"? MR MAREE That is correct. At that stage I was interested in looking at, or to accept the recruitment, I then attended a meeting where Sterk addressed us. MR P DU PLESSIS Were there other members who were then later recruited? Who were they? MR MAREE Mr Joe Verster addressed us. MR P DU PLESSIS Was this meeting at a military compound? MR MAREE No, it was on the Ponti Building in Hillbrow. MR P DU PLESSIS Did you say who was present as well? MR MAREE It was Calla Botha, Staal Burger and Mr van Zyl. MR P DU PLESSIS Did you then accept the appointment? MR MAREE Yes, after I spoke to Mr Verster and he explained to me what this entailed, I considered it and I think two days later I came back to Mr Burger and told him that I accepted. MR P DU PLESSIS You then resigned from the South African Police Service? MR MAREE Yes. MR P DU PLESSIS Just in short, the initial description of the unit, the Special Forces Unit of the Defence Force, what did this entail? MR MAREE What they told me was that it was a covert arm of Special Forces and at that stage I did not have a lot of knowledge concerning Special Forces, so I accepted, as they explained it, covert in the line of the Security Branch of the Police. MR P DU PLESSIS Mr Chairman, there seems to be a problem with Mr Kahanovitz, I don't know whether it's about... MR KAHANOVITZ It's just to do with the quality of the sound in Afrikaans and it seems to have to do with the position of the microphones and also the speed at which they're speaking. MR P DU PLESSIS Thank you Mr Chairman. Very well, you are now talking about the covert operations. So you were under the impression, or you were brought under the impression from the start, that you will not run around in Angola in uniform. What was your impression then? Where will you be stationed and what would the circumstances be under which you would work? MR MAREE Initially they told us, because there was a contract or an agreement between the South African Police and the South African Defence Force, there will be a cooling off period of 6 months, thereafter we will get an office in Johannesburg and that did occur. MR P DU PLESSIS In other words you'll be stationed in Johannesburg? MR MAREE That is correct. MR P DU PLESSIS And on that basis you then accepted it? MR MAREE That is correct. MR P DU PLESSIS At that stage of your recruitment, was there any discussion or talk that you would have to act in any illegal way and that would fall in the parameters of your services as the Special Forces of the Defence Force? MR MAREE No. MR P DU PLESSIS You then mentioned that they told you that there would be a cooling off period of six months. But just before we get to that, did you receive an official service contract? MR MAREE Yes, I signed it and handed it over to Mr Verster. MR P DU PLESSIS Now what was your impression? For what institute or organisation were you working for? MR MAREE For the Defence Force. MR P DU PLESSIS The name CCB, was that known to you, that it would be a branch of the Defence Force? MR MAREE No, not with the first meeting. MR P DU PLESSIS But when you joined? MR MAREE Yes. MR P DU PLESSIS So when you signed the contract, the name was then made known to you? MR MAREE This contract I think was, if I can recall correctly, with the organisation and it said CCB, but the word used was organisations. MR P DU PLESSIS It has been put to you before that the CCB stood separate from the Defence Force in the sense that the activities of the CCB could not lead back to the Defence Force, do you understand what I mean? MR MAREE Yes. MR P DU PLESSIS This is also how you were informed? MR MAREE Yes, that's how I understood it. MR P DU PLESSIS But did you understand that you will not be in the service of the Defence Force then? MR MAREE No, that it would be a covert organisation. MR P DU PLESSIS And your Commander of this specific unit? MR MAREE Gen Joubert. MR P DU PLESSIS Gen Joubert, did you meet him? MR MAREE Yes, I did meet him. MR P DU PLESSIS So in other words, it was a General that was in full-time employment of the Defence Force? MR MAREE That is correct. MR P DU PLESSIS So you had no doubt that you were working for a State Organisation and for the Security Forces at that stage? MR MAREE No, I had no illusion that I worked for the Defence Force, that is correct. MR P DU PLESSIS And that's also where you money came from, the salaries and the funding for certain projects? MR MAREE That is correct. MR P DU PLESSIS During this cooling-off period, we've also heard other evidence and I do not think it is disputed that there was no activation and you did not really serve in the traditional sense of the word, during that period of 6 months, up until December 1988? MR MAREE That is correct. MR P DU PLESSIS But you did have contact with the organisation, is that correct? MR MAREE Yes. MR P DU PLESSIS By means of whom? MR MAREE It was Wouter Basson. MR P DU PLESSIS Who was know to you as Christo Brits. Was he ...? MR MAREE He was the co-ordinator of Region 6. MR P DU PLESSIS And this contact during that 6 month period, where did this happen, or how did it happen? MR MAREE It was mostly meetings at different hotels in hotel rooms. MR P DU PLESSIS What was discussed? MR MAREE In short, it was at the start of it, we tried to sort out the documentation. We had no documentation so we tried to find all of that out. MR P DU PLESSIS What your service would entail? MR MAREE Yes, that is correct. MR P DU PLESSIS Then it's also common cause that you were later activated in January 1989. MR MAREE That is correct. MR P DU PLESSIS And that indeed the course was presented and that you went through this course and amongst others, Joe Verster, Wouter Basson and others addressed you? MR MAREE That is correct. MR P DU PLESSIS Am I also correct that it was also the Commanding General, who was Joubert at that stage? MR MAREE That is correct. MR P DU PLESSIS Now without dealing with this extensively, what did this course entail? MR MAREE There were different phases. Once again the military style of administration. Because we were Special Forces we did things differently. We did the writing of documents, the purpose of the organisation was explained to us. MR P DU PLESSIS Being? MR MAREE Being the disruption of the enemy of the country. MR P DU PLESSIS Was the enemy explained to you or spelled out? MR MAREE Yes, at that stage, I think it was common knowledge that it was the ANC, the PAC or the so-called freedom fighters, which we called the terrorists and today are called the freedom fighters. MR P DU PLESSIS Well, what was put to you in broad terms concerning your functions? MR MAREE What was put to us, in broader terms was that the day of conventional warfare in South Africa is over, the enemy is now in the country and that we are a similar organisation and we will fight fire with fire and we will adapt our methods to theirs. MR P DU PLESSIS What did this entail? MR MAREE It was the elimination of people, the burning of houses or any disruption to ... MR P DU PLESSIS Disruption actions? MR MAREE That is correct. MR P DU PLESSIS Would this include fund organisations of the ANC, to act against the ANC? MR MAREE Yes. MR P DU PLESSIS At that stage you just left the South African Police, what was your perception concerning those circumstances in the country? MR MAREE Well from the police's side I was aware of it. I was aware that there were bombs in the country, that bombs were planted against the State, friends of mine, policemen who were blown up, cars that were blown up, so I was aware that the war was in the country, I was aware of this. MR P DU PLESSIS And did you sympathise with the tasks of the South African Defence Force? MR MAREE Yes, I did, I was part of them. MR P DU PLESSIS Very well, we will at a later stage deal with that area, but was it explained to you how these covert operations would work? MR MAREE Yes, in broader terms they explained to us that the blue plan and a red plan ... MR P DU PLESSIS That would be then the cover, to give you access? MR MAREE Yes. MR P DU PLESSIS And also to give you a legitimate base to work from, from there you would then execute your operations? MR MAREE That is correct. MR P DU PLESSIS And the red plan would then be the activation in terms of the operations against the enemy? MR MAREE That is correct. MR P DU PLESSIS And with that you confirm what has already been said in terms of the recruitment of unconscious agents? MR MAREE That is correct. MR P DU PLESSIS I'm not going to cover all of that again, but you then indeed after you completed that course, took certain steps to establish a cover for yourself? MR MAREE That is correct. MR P DU PLESSIS What did you then do in terms of the establishment of a blue plan cover? MR MAREE Well, I established a front company for the export from South Africa to other African countries, electronic appliances, computers, pocket calculators, watches, etc. MR P DU PLESSIS You now said that you established a company, was this a formal company? MR MAREE Yes. MR P DU PLESSIS What was the name? MR MAREE It was Lema, L-E-M-A, was the name of the company. MR P DU PLESSIS Did it stand for something? MR MAREE Well, it is the first two letters of my name and then my surname. The company I established in Johannesburg, funding was approved for the establishment of this company by the Defence Force. MR P DU PLESSIS Was this then an official request for funds that you had to do through documentation? MR MAREE Yes. MR P DU PLESSIS Can you recall what type of funds were made available to you? MR MAREE At a certain stage, R40 000 was made available for the company. MR P DU PLESSIS What would you use it for? MR MAREE Well it would be the buying of furniture to furnish the offices. MR P DU PLESSIS And to get personnel? MR MAREE That is correct yes, for the first month or two. MR P DU PLESSIS And did you then use those funds? MR MAREE Yes, I did, some of it, but my plans changed, I did not buy furniture but I started renting furnished offices. MR P DU PLESSIS Was this now in a centre where there were offices and also furniture and also personnel? MR MAREE That is correct. MR P DU PLESSIS Where were the offices? MR MAREE They were in Park Town in Johannesburg and I then gave back the rest of the money until I needed it at a later stage. MR MAREE So if I understand you correctly, you made a monthly withdrawal and rather than using the whole lump sum at the same time. MR MAREE That is correct. MR P DU PLESSIS When you activated this company, was it a business? MR MAREE Yes, it was a business. I did business and I also embarked on a - because it was a new area, I'm a policeman, I do not know anything about business and I thought if I had people around me who knew about it, I could learn from them, that's why I started with a very small company. I then did that and after a few months I started with these things that I exported. I started making money and then I got a partner to assist me in it. MR P DU PLESSIS So you then indeed, to put it this way, you had a bona fide business? MR MAREE That is correct. MR P DU PLESSIS Was the idea of this whole system that you would have a believable cover or was it only a door where there's nothing going on behind it? MR MAREE I understood and later I went into it a bit further, that it was very important to have a good foundation, a very good blue plan. To get access you need, if somebody asks you, you must seem legitimate. If somebody comes to your office, it must seem as if there's things going on and I tried to do this to the best of my abilities. MR P DU PLESSIS So it is a question where in the community you want to establish yourself as a businessman, it's not just a front door, you must indeed run a business and people must trust you doing it and you then did it? MR MAREE Yes, that is correct. MR P DU PLESSIS At the, or during this initial term from January to March, we also heard evidence that there were basically provinces given to the different members of Region 6 on the ground floor level, that was yourself and Mr Botha and you had to concentrate on these areas? MR MAREE That is correct. MR P DU PLESSIS But you were not always applied in these areas? MR MAREE That is correct. MR P DU PLESSIS And that KwaZulu Natal was given to you so that you could also establish yourself there and that would be the province on which you would focus? MR MAREE That is correct. MR P DU PLESSIS Why was this done? Is there any specific reason for this? MR MAREE Well, because I went to school there and I grew up there and I knew Natal and I assume that was the reason. MR P DU PLESSIS But out of your evidence before, it seemed that if you were to ...(indistinct) as a detective or policeman and you did not work in Natal. MR MAREE It's true, I knew the area but I've lost contact with a lot of the people there, but I went back to look up old friends and to make contact with them again. MR P DU PLESSIS Very well. Did you also extend your business activities? MR MAREE Yes, I also established a company in Durban that provided goods to ships coming in and once again I got a partner to run the business to give me the freedom to move around. MR P DU PLESSIS He did not know what was going on? MR MAREE He was completely unconscious, he did not know what was going on. MR P DU PLESSIS And was this once again a normal branch or office? MR MAREE It was not the same type of work as the first company. I provided goods to ships that came into the harbour. MR P DU PLESSIS Can you still recall the name of the company? MR MAREE Capall, C-A-P-A-L-L. MR P DU PLESSIS Was it once again a formal company? MR MAREE That is correct. MR P DU PLESSIS You say that this company did indeed run the business and did do business. Did you make use of the funds? MR MAREE No, the Lema office in Johannesburg, I just took one or two months of their profit to make use, to buy furniture. MR P DU PLESSIS So you were running the Lema business at a profit? MR MAREE That is correct. MR P DU PLESSIS And you used that money to create the company in Natal. If I understand you correctly, it was not against the rules of the CCB, it was indeed the policy of the CCB that you will have a legitimate business, you will establish this business from which you can then draw a salary or that you can make a living with it and you were supported in this, that you were going to make a profit in it and make use of it? MR MAREE That is correct. I did run it in terms of the profit, but it was not the purpose to get a salary from it, but I got a salary from the Defence Force. MR P DU PLESSIS It wasn't a factor however, this is now from the profits of the company? MR MAREE That is correct. MR P DU PLESSIS But you had to make a profit otherwise the company would not exist. MR MAREE That is correct. MR P DU PLESSIS Just to come back to what you have already said to us. You spoke to us about CAPALL, the other company that did business, to come back to Lema, this company you say did exports to what country? MR MAREE Well, it was Zambia, Swaziland, Botswana, African countries around us. MR P DU PLESSIS Did this include Namibia? MR MAREE Yes. MR P DU PLESSIS Botswana? MR MAREE Namibia, Botswana, Swaziland and Lesotho. MR P DU PLESSIS Zimbabwe? MR MAREE Zambia, not Zimbabwe. MR P DU PLESSIS Very well. Did you personally, in order to further your exports, did you travel to these countries? MR MAREE Yes. MR P DU PLESSIS What was the purpose of it? MR MAREE To receive business or to get business from those countries. Because I didn't have people on the grassroots level, I don't have experience, so I wen to the Chambers of Commerce in these countries and they referred me to companies, gave me names and contracts with companies I can do business with, so I can then choose whom I want to deal with. MR P DU PLESSIS And this was in the furthering of your business in terms of the blue plan? You had no illusions that you would then, or the fact that you could move freely in those countries, that it can be an advantage for the CCB? MR MAREE That is correct, that was the purpose thereof. CHAIRPERSON When you say it was the purpose thereof, when you were to focus on Natal, ... MR MAREE To give me freedom of movement, Sir. CHAIRPERSON Yes, but I mean your function in the CCB wasn't it to focus on KwaZulu Natal? MR MAREE Yes. CHAIRPERSON So in what way would it be beneficial to the CCB if you could wander around freely in Namibia or Zambia or Swaziland or Botswana? MR MAREE Not necessarily to do that. On the course we were told that we must access freedom of movement wherever we want to and that's what I tried to do there. CHAIRPERSON Mr du Plessis. MR P DU PLESSIS Thank you Mr Chairman. And then perhaps just to clarify the point which was touched upon by the Chairperson a few moments ago, if I understand you correctly, these activities of yours, the establishment of Lema, the exports, the movements in the African countries, all of this took place in January, February, March, April of 1989, the initial months? MR MAREE Yes, the first few months of 1989. MR P DU PLESSIS Now as a result of this successful establishment of Lema and the exports particularly, was there any movement in the CCB as a result of this, especially with regard to its functions? MR MAREE There was another company which I established, yes. I also established Lema in Windhoek, in Namibia. MR P DU PLESSIS Was it a branch of Lema? MR MAREE Yes, it was a company on it's own, it was Lema, Namibia. MR P DU PLESSIS Was it also an incorporated company? MR MAREE Yes. MR P DU PLESSIS In Windhoek? MR MAREE Yes. MR P DU PLESSIS And regarding these activities of yours, was there ever any change with regard to the CCB's plans with you? MR MAREE Yes. Later I was called in by Mr Burger and I was asked whether I would be interested in working in Germany. MR P DU PLESSIS And then with regard to Africa, can you give us an indication of when the Germany offer came about? If we could just establish the course of time. We've examined January to April, that was the African situation and then emanating there from, did you follow any courses or anything like that? MR MAREE Out of my own, I followed a business management course because I was a layman, I didn't really know much and I needed to learn more. MR P DU PLESSIS At which institution? MR MAREE At Executive Education. It was a very basic Management course. MR P DU PLESSIS Who paid for the course? The CCB actually? MR MAREE Yes, the CCB. MR P DU PLESSIS And this question that you would focus abroad and ultimately in Germany, was this your own initiative or was it from the CCB? MR MAREE From the CCB. MR P DU PLESSIS And was this based upon your successful activities in other African Countries, as you have just explained to us? MR MAREE I think it was based upon my blue companies which had been successfully established that they functioned efficiently. MR P DU PLESSIS Was your function then at that point when you were asked to focus or concentrate on foreign countries, was your focus still specifically on KwaZulu Natal in the sense that it was your job? MR MAREE I was told to work in Natal, but I viewed this over the long term and I thought that I should first establish a sound basis. MR P DU PLESSIS That would include Capall? MR MAREE Yes. MR P DU PLESSIS The company that included Capall? MR MAREE Yes, it gave me the freedom to move to Durban because I had to work in Natal. I had a reason to go to Durban without any questions being asked. MR P DU PLESSIS Now the establishment of blue plans and the establishment of a credible front for the CCB, was this a sort of crises management which was executed over the short term, or was it a long term plan? What was your perception? MR MAREE It was my perception that it was a long term plan, that it had to be done proficiently. That is what I tried to do. I tried to establish a sound basis. I viewed it in the long term and I was also told that it was a long term thing. MR P DU PLESSIS So you were told so? Why were you told so? MR MAREE I was told so by Mr Burger, Mr Verster and during the course. MR P DU PLESSIS Was any pressure exerted on you to deliver so-called production with regard to the projects and execution of such projects? MR MAREE No, it was said that this was a significant phase, the establishment of an efficient blue plan. MR P DU PLESSIS You see, because questions have been put here, among others, by the Chairperson that it seems somewhat difficult to understand that the person Chappies Maree, as he is known, is in disfavour with Mr Slang van Zyl with regard to production. It would appear that you were there for nine months, and with the exception of Gavin Evans, nothing happened. MR MAREE Yes, it must be so, we had different working methods. My blue plan entrapped me in the sense that I found myself in a situation for a number of months where I didn't know anything about business, but I had to deal with businesses and staff members and I was caught up in the whole idea of running a business, rather than delivering production. MR P DU PLESSIS Later we will deal in specific terms with Gavin Evans, but it is common cause that in approximately March 1989, an instruction came your way with regard to Gavin Evans? MR MAREE That is correct. MR P DU PLESSIS And that you indeed executed your instruction with regard to that. It is not common cause as such perhaps, but you could perhaps inform us regarding this. What was your precise instruction? MR MAREE MR P DU PLESSIS Very well. We will deal with the details later. Did you do so? MR MAREE Yes, I did. MR P DU PLESSIS And you sent the information back? MR MAREE Yes, I gave them feedback. MR P DU PLESSIS Did you continue with the project? MR MAREE No, I didn't. MR P DU PLESSIS It is on record that Mr van Zyl ultimately received an order to execute a project regarding Gavin Evans. MR MAREE I understand that. MR P DU PLESSIS Were you involved in the execution of that project in any way whatsoever? MR MAREE No. MR P DU PLESSIS As I've said, we will return to the details of that later. Why were you not involved? Why was it taken away from you? MR MAREE Because I must have taken too long with it. It wasn't that it wasn't important to me but I was caught up in the blue plan business and the establishment of these businesses, so I was more in Natal to establish Capall, than what I was here at that point. MR P DU PLESSIS Were you told what you were supposed to concentrate on when the Gavin Evans project was taken away from you? MR MAREE What I had to concentrate on? MR P DU PLESSIS Yes what you were supposed to do. MR MAREE In Natal? MR P DU PLESSIS No, in general. MR MAREE I was involved with the blue plan. MR P DU PLESSIS Very well. So were there any problems in the CCB with regard to the fact that you had to continue with the blue plan? MR MAREE No, I assumed that they were happy that this was done. MR P DU PLESSIS That it was going well? MR MAREE Yes. MR P DU PLESSIS You've already referred to the course that you did for a month. Was it a full-time course? MR MAREE Yes. MR P DU PLESSIS And that was for the month of May? MR MAREE Yes, it was during May. MR P DU PLESSIS So that brings us to the end of May 1989. MR MAREE That is correct. MR P DU PLESSIS Which is five months on from January at that point. MR MAREE Yes. MR P DU PLESSIS After the completion of this course, which you did with the good blessings of the CCB along with their finance, what happened furthermore with regard to CCB activities? Were you still involved with the blue plan? MR MAREE Yes, I was. MR P DU PLESSIS And were there any other projects, so to speak, which came to your side, or any other instructions that you had to execute for the CCB? MR MAREE Yes, there were. MR P DU PLESSIS Could you explain this to us? MR MAREE I had to do a placement of a person in Namibia. MR P DU PLESSIS Who was this person? MR MAREE Donald Aitchison. MR P DU PLESSIS Do you have personal knowledge of the circumstances surrounding the recruitment of Mr Aitchison? MR MAREE No. MR P DU PLESSIS Did you regard Mr Aitchison as an aware or an unaware, or unconscious member? MR MAREE An unconscious member. MR P DU PLESSIS From whom did you receive the order? MR MAREE From Mr Burger. MR P DU PLESSIS MR MAREE Approximately June, July or August in 1989. MR P DU PLESSIS July or August? MR MAREE Yes. MR P DU PLESSIS Just to view this in context, during these periods did you often travel abroad? MR MAREE Yes. MR P DU PLESSIS With reference to African countries, that is? MR MAREE Yes, that is correct. MR P DU PLESSIS And in this period of June, July and August, during this time, did you visit any European countries? MR MAREE Yes, I did. MR P DU PLESSIS Which country specifically? MR MAREE Greece. MR P DU PLESSIS With what purpose? MR MAREE Once again, the expansion of a company, to try to promote my blue plan, with a businessman, I went with a businessman to try to establish this. MR P DU PLESSIS Did you only go to Greece at that stage? MR MAREE Yes. MR P DU PLESSIS Who financed this? MR MAREE The CCB. MR P DU PLESSIS And so it was official business in promotion of the blue plan? MR MAREE Yes. MR P DU PLESSIS And nobody complained about it? MR MAREE No. MR P DU PLESSIS You stated that you also visited Namibia and that indeed you incorporated Lema as a company in Windhoek. MR MAREE That is correct. I could not do or practice the company as a singular unit, that is why I had to establish Lema B in Windhoek. MR P DU PLESSIS Can you recall precisely when this was? We can use a general time period if you want. MR MAREE It was approximately with my return from Greece. MR P DU PLESSIS So it would have been in July or August as well? MR MAREE Yes. MR P DU PLESSIS More or less the same time when Aitchison was placed? MR MAREE Yes. The company was registered before Aitchison was there. MR P DU PLESSIS So it was shortly before that? MR MAREE Yes, because I had been there previously to purchase a company in Namibia. MR P DU PLESSIS What sort of company? MR MAREE It was just to look for a company to acquire in Namibia. I knew what I was doing at that point, because I wanted to establish Lema there. MR P DU PLESSIS And did Lema in Namibia do any good business? MR MAREE No, it didn't, it was registered, but it didn't. MR P DU PLESSIS Was this particular company incorporated with Aitchison in mind? MR MAREE No. MR P DU PLESSIS Did it not have anything to do with that? MR MAREE No. MR P DU PLESSIS It was still a bona fide expansion of the blue plan? MR MAREE Yes. MR P DU PLESSIS This trip to Greece and the examination of Europe, upon whose initiative was this done? MR MAREE The CCB. MR P DU PLESSIS Once again, the question originates that originally you were told to examine KwaZulu Natal and the next thing you find yourself in the Greek Islands, which is a little far from KwaZulu Natal. How did this happen? Was this the long term vision regarding the activities? MR MAREE At that stage I didn't know, now I know that there was. MR P DU PLESSIS Were you told to expand to Europe? MR MAREE Mr Burger told me, and that is what I tried to do. MR P DU PLESSIS Very well and eventually you went to Germany as well? MR MAREE Yes. MR P DU PLESSIS When was your first time that you visited Germany, can you recall? MR MAREE August, approximately, I cannot recall precisely, it was August 1989. MR P DU PLESSIS You went to Germany? MR MAREE Yes. MR P DU PLESSIS And was this once again an instruction? MR MAREE Yes. MR P DU PLESSIS To do what? MR MAREE To do a pre-study for a transfer to there. MR P DU PLESSIS So at that point it was the vision that you would ultimately settle in Europe? MR MAREE Yes. Mr Burger called me in and asked me how I would feel about settling permanently in Germany, about being stationed there and I was in favour of it. They sent me to Germany to expand the blue plan of Lema once again, to give me movement room to contact German companies and that is what I did. I placed advertisements in newspapers, made contact with business people, I examined the schooling systems and went to establish office space and to obtain housing. I went to examine the scene for this. MR P DU PLESSIS And you did it in the end? MR MAREE Yes, I did. MR P DU PLESSIS So at that stage the entire focus of your activities was actually from the internal side to the external side? MR MAREE That is correct. MR P DU PLESSIS And during this same period of time that we have referred to, you received an instruction to handle Aitchison? MR MAREE Yes. MR P DU PLESSIS And did you indeed physically meet with Aitchison? MR MAREE Yes, I did. MR P DU PLESSIS Where? MR MAREE The first time was at a hotel in Norwood, thereafter in Swaziland and then again in Namibia. MR P DU PLESSIS Very well. And was funding made available by the CCB for the establishment of Aitchison? MR MAREE Yes. MR P DU PLESSIS In Namibia? MR MAREE Correct. MR P DU PLESSIS Mr Chairman, unfortunately I will have to deal with the whole Lubowski/Aitchison saga in view of the questions that have been put here to different witnesses, so although Mr Maree did not ask for amnesty in this regard, there's nothing in terms of my instructions he had to ask for amnesty for. I have to place this within the bigger picture, when we're dealing with Mr Gavin Evans, so at this stage I'm dealing with this. Therefore you say that you went to establish Aitchison there? MR MAREE Yes. MR P DU PLESSIS And did you also meet him personally in Namibia? MR MAREE Yes. MR P DU PLESSIS And did you conduct the establishment there? CHAIRPERSON Sorry just before you proceed. This word establishment, what did it entail to establish Aitchison? Was that just to recruit him as an unaware member, or did you employ him at Lema, fix him up with a job, or what are you talking about when you say you had to establish Aitchison? MR MAREE He was already recruited Sir, so I had to establish him in South West, in Namibia, by settling him in, getting him housing and seeing if I could get him a job and a motor vehicle and moving his family there. MR P DU PLESSIS Perhaps we could deal with this briefly. So with regard to Aitchison, if we understand your evidence correctly, it was not a short term thing? MR MAREE No, I was instructed to place Aitchison in Namibia and there was also a plan for him to be a so-called English sleeper because Namibia was on the verge of its reawakening at that stage. MR P DU PLESSIS If I recall correctly, the election took place approximately during August in 1989. MR MAREE Yes, that is correct. MR P DU PLESSIS Was funding made available by the CCB as well? MR MAREE Yes. MR P DU PLESSIS And you said that he had to take his family there, did he have a family? MR MAREE I don't know if it was his wife, I think he also had two children. MR P DU PLESSIS And the lady who was going with him? MR MAREE Yes, so originally there was a problem, he would have had to wait a month because the school times for the children were not suitable and I had to get quotes for his family, the Defence Force wanted three quotes for the transportation of his furniture to Namibia. MR P DU PLESSIS So he was established in Namibia at that point, but his family was yet to follow? MR MAREE Yes. MR P DU PLESSIS And the arrangements for this were underway? MR MAREE That is correct. MR P DU PLESSIS And he agreed to go and stay there? MR MAREE That is correct. MR P DU PLESSIS And at that point, was there any particular instruction which Mr Aitchison had to execute there that you knew of? MR MAREE Yes, he had to try and get a job, but I also told him that the job wasn't the most important, because we would be paying him a salary while he was there. MR P DU PLESSIS So he was already receiving funding? MR MAREE Yes and there was also a problem with housing because in Windhoek there wasn't a lot of housing because UNTAG was in Windhoek at that stage, so all the housing was occupied, but he did find a garden cottage with somebody. MR P DU PLESSIS And that was also another reason why his wife and family couldn't join him, because the housing situation hadn't been sorted out yet. MR P DU PLESSIS And he did get a job. Did you find the job for him, or did he find it himself? MR MAREE No, he found it himself. He was a journalist and a cartoon sketcher so he managed to get the job himself. MR P DU PLESSIS Did you have any instructions for him with regard to illegal activities that he had to execute there with regard to the political situation and the intimidation or murder of persons? MR MAREE No, nothing whatsoever. MR P DU PLESSIS Did you yourself have such orders which you would ultimately have to send through to him? MR MAREE No, not at all. MR P DU PLESSIS If I understand you correctly, your instruction was merely to establish him there for later usage. MR MAREE Yes. I did not recruit him either, I was simply given a document and I was told to go and meet this man and to establish him in Namibia, that is all. MR P DU PLESSIS Very well. We are now aware of the fact that at a certain point Adv Anton Lubowski was murdered in Namibia, the date being the 12th of September. MR MAREE Correct. MR P DU PLESSIS Where were you on the 12th of September? MR MAREE In Johannesburg. MR P DU PLESSIS Had you visited Namibia at any point during that time? MR MAREE I was in and out of Namibia. Four days before Mr Lubowski's death I was in Namibia. MR P DU PLESSIS Did you have anything whatsoever to do with the death of Lubowski? MR MAREE No. MR P DU PLESSIS Did you have any knowledge that it was going to happen? MR MAREE No. MR P DU PLESSIS We will deal with the following matter at a later point. By nature of the situation it became known to you that Mr Aitchison was indeed arrested. MR MAREE That is correct. MR P DU PLESSIS Now with regard to his recruitment by a certain Knox police officer who introduced him to Mr Barnard who was then handed over to Mr Botha and brought in to the CCB, did you have any knowledge of that background? MR MAREE No. MR P DU PLESSIS You said that you regarded him as an unconscious member. MR MAREE Yes. MR P DU PLESSIS It would appear from the evidence that he was conscious. MR MAREE Yes. MR P DU PLESSIS If this whole situation had been known to you, would you have placed your man there? MR MAREE It was my order. If I had known, in retrospect it is easier to say, but I think I might have acted differently. MR P DU PLESSIS It is clear that there was no particular cut-off date or point with Mr Aitchison. MR MAREE Yes, from my side I followed it through as such. MR P DU PLESSIS Someone else other than Mr Botha who received him from Mr Barnard. MR MAREE Yes. MR P DU PLESSIS While we are on the subject, were you at any stage aware of Mr Barnard's application? MR MAREE No. MR P DU PLESSIS You or any other members? MR MAREE No, not at all. MR P DU PLESSIS I beg your pardon? MR MAREE I knew Mr Barnard from the police, but I didn't know about anything else. MR P DU PLESSIS So you knew him? MR MAREE Yes, I knew him. MR P DU PLESSIS Were you aware of his involvement with the CCB? MR MAREE No. MR P DU PLESSIS With Region 7 specifically? MR MAREE No, not at all. MR P DU PLESSIS In terms of the structure as it existed then, would Mr Barnard's application - let me rather not deal with that. You have stated that you were not aware of his application. MR MAREE Yes, that is correct. MR P DU PLESSIS After it became known that Aitchison was arrested, what were the actions thereafter or the reaction at the very least? MR MAREE I was called in and told to break off all contact with Aitchison, which is what I did. MR P DU PLESSIS So regarding you, ... MR MAREE My cut-off points were correct. MR P DU PLESSIS MR MAREE Yes. MR P DU PLESSIS So it was not suspended? MR MAREE No. MR P DU PLESSIS And did you return to Germany? MR MAREE Yes, I did, in December of that year. MR P DU PLESSIS December 1989? MR MAREE That is correct. MR P DU PLESSIS So were further funds made available for you in that regard? MR MAREE That is correct. MR P DU PLESSIS The trip to Germany at that point, was it still with the objective that you were supposed to establish yourself there? MR MAREE Yes. Me and my partner from Lema went together. He was not aware of what I was involved with, but I took him with to Germany. The Defence Force paid for it. We went to make acquisitions and while we were there, we dealt with the other business that he was indeed aware of, that we were looking for contact points and persons in Germany. MR P DU PLESSIS And while you were in Germany, were there any developments in South Africa with regard to the CCB? MR MAREE Yes, there were. MR P DU PLESSIS I'm referring to the arrest of Calla Botha in December. MR MAREE That is correct. MR P DU PLESSIS Also the arrest of Mr Slang van Zyl in January, just the following year, 1990. MR MAREE That is correct. MR P DU PLESSIS Which then threw the entire CCB into turmoil. MR MAREE That is correct. MR P DU PLESSIS And what emanated from that? Did you receive any orders from that? MR MAREE While I was in Germany or in Europe, I received an instruction to remain there, but that my partner had to return. This was the first time when my partner was informed of what was really going on because I didn't really have any other choice. My co-ordinator told me what had happened, he told me that Mr Botha had been arrested and that Mr van Zyl had been arrested. He returned after I had informed him precisely of what was going on. The other staff members still didn't know what the real situation was and he returned to inform them of the actual position. I remained and waited for further instructions. MR P DU PLESSIS This entire movement which took place surrounding the CCB was established to a greater extent by the fact that the police of Namibia, which at that stage had become independent and particularly Jumbo Smit, was conducting investigations in South Africa into the Lubowski case and it was in terms of this that you were instructed to remain where you were? MR MAREE That is correct. MR P DU PLESSIS You've already said that with regard to the Lubowski murder you did not perform any role nor did you have any knowledge of the incident itself. MR MAREE That is correct. MR P DU PLESSIS But by nature of the situation, there are fingers which pointed in your direction over the years and particularly those of a certain Judge Levy, you are aware of his finding that the CCB in Region 6 and particularly your name was mentioned and that you were to have been involved in the matter according to his findings. MR MAREE I deny this. MR P DU PLESSIS Very well. The final point with regard to the Lubowski matter that I would like to deal with is the report of the TRC to the State President, which was submitted here as Exhibit D. This matter is dealt with in terms of Lubowski. There are just one or two aspects about this that I would like to touch upon with you. Before I get to that, however, after your involvement with the CCB, we know that the Harms Commission came into being early in 1990. MR MAREE That is correct. MR P DU PLESSIS And you returned from Germany? MR MAREE Yes. MR P DU PLESSIS And you were here at the time of the Harms Commission being in session? MR MAREE That is correct. MR P DU PLESSIS And subsequently the CCB was disbanded and your services were terminated with the CCB by means of a package system? MR MAREE That is correct. MR P DU PLESSIS And it is common cause that from 1991 onwards you once again became involved with the South African Defence Force but with the Department of Covert Collections? MR MAREE Yes, the DCC. MR P DU PLESSIS And until when were you involved there? MR MAREE Until 1993. MR P DU PLESSIS That is the same matter regarding which Mr Wouter Basson gave evidence, namely that there was an investigation by the Goldstone Commission of Inquiry and as a result of this your services were promptly terminated? MR MAREE That is correct. MR P DU PLESSIS Just to return to the report which I've already mentioned, the TRC report. Mr Chairman I see that the pages are not numbered, it's Exhibit D, one of the pages deals with the killing of Anton Lubowski, but it's not numbered in my bundle or my Exhibit, it's paragraph 1.4.1. and further. MR LAX As far as I remember we referred to the specifics paragraphs for record purposes and perhaps you should just continue to do that. They're all numbered, as far as I understand. MR P DU PLESSIS We'll refer to them by paragraph then. They deal there in paragraph 1.4.6. with the fact that Judge Levy then made certain findings in which you and Chappies Maree were implicated. Are you aware of that? MR MAREE Yes. MR P DU PLESSIS And then I can see that Mr Ferdi Barnard's name is also mentioned here as well as a Charles Wilscoat, formerly Nielsen, do you know of such a person? MR MAREE No. MR P DU PLESSIS Mr Ferdi Barnard, you do confirm that you knew him before your involvement at the CCB? MR MAREE That is correct. MR P DU PLESSIS The other people are Joe Verster, Staal Burger, Abram Slang van Zyl, Calla Botha and yourself and Wouter Basson and it is then Region 6 as well as the Director General, Joe Verster. Then Johan Niemoller is mentioned, do you know anything about him? MR MAREE No. MR P DU PLESSIS Then Schutte we've already dealt with, you also say you do not know him. Then there's reference to a Christoffel Nel and if you follow the evidence here, it is very clear that it is one Derek from the CCB, this is in paragraph 1.7., did you know this person during your involvement at the CCB? MR MAREE No, I did not. MR P DU PLESSIS Paragraph 1.4.8., said that "What I've said is it's well established that the CCB was set up as a covert grouping with the purpose, amongst others, of killing political opponents. So too is the fact that prior to the Lubowski killing, such opponents were subject to extensive target identification or intelligence gathering operations. It has been established that Lubowski was the subject of such an exercise, an operation conducted by the West Front, South West Africa and Angola section of the Directorate of Cover Collection, DCC, then headed by Brig Koos Louw. His Deputy Major Geoffrey Burton Price, also known as Arthur Wiltshire, was in charge of the South West African arena." Now at that stage, we now know that you joined DCC. MR MAREE That is correct. MR P DU PLESSIS That was in 1991? MR MAREE Yes. MR P DU PLESSIS We are now talking about 1989 with the death of Lubowski. Did you have any contact at that stage with DCC? MR MAREE No, I did not even know they existed. MR P DU PLESSIS The Defence Force, DCC? MR MAREE Well I did not know anything about them. MR P DU PLESSIS At that stage, did you know Brig Koos Louw at that stage? MR MAREE No. MR P DU PLESSIS And Major Geoffrey Burton Price? MR MAREE I only met him later when I joined the DCC. MR P DU PLESSIS What was Price's background? MR MAREE He was an ex-Rhodesian from the CIO. MR P DU PLESSIS What is CIO? MR MAREE Central Intelligence Organisation. MR P DU PLESSIS From the old Rhodesia? MR MAREE That is correct yes. MR P DU PLESSIS In other words, he had a military background? MR MAREE Yes, he had a military background from Rhodesia, that is correct. MR P DU PLESSIS Very well. Then there's reference made in paragraph 149 "The actual eavesdropping operation was undertaken by the tenant Johannes Frederik Verster." If I'm correct, I think it was also Rich Verster. Do you know this person? MR MAREE Yes. MR P DU PLESSIS Did you know him in 1989? MR MAREE No, I met him at a later stage. I heard about him before he was involved in - I think he went to jail for - I think some Zulu clan hired him to shoot another clan and I think he went to jail for that. MR P DU PLESSIS He was a convicted murderer? MR MAREE That is correct. MR P DU PLESSIS "Who provided this information to the Commission. Verster was still running the surveillance eavesdropping exercise at the time Lubowski was shot. He told the Commission that he was shot by the killing because we were recruiting him" That refers to Lubowski, "and it was the wrong person every to have shot. He was instructed to return to South Africa immediately after the shooting." Out of this it's very clear that Rich Verster was involved at DCC during the Lubowski murder, 12th September, 1989. Are you aware of that? MR MAREE No. MR P DU PLESSIS Are you aware of the fact of the activities of DCC in Namibia? MR MAREE No, I wasn't. MR P DU PLESSIS Of any other Intelligence organisation in Namibia? MR MAREE A lot of them were involved, but I personally did not know of any operations by any intelligence organisation or any country's Intelligence Services. MR P DU PLESSIS At that stage, that is September 1989? MR MAREE That is correct, yes. MR P DU PLESSIS Then I have to deal with that. There is a quote from evidence or a testimony of Rich Verster with reference to certain people that I'd like to ask if you know them. "When I got into Pretoria, I was summoned to go and see Koos Louw and also Tolletjie Botha, head of DCC. I explained to them what had happened. They went to an office with me. He, Botha, picked up the telephone and he phoned South West Africa, the Head of the Prison Department and also the police and he said: 'We'll have to use the old boys network.' They phoned up the Brigadier in South West Africa and asked what happened. 'Have they got Aitchison?' They said yes, they have." Now resulting from this, we've already dealt with Koos Louw, Tolletjie Botha, the former head of DCC, did you know him? MR MAREE Yes, I knew him, not then, later when I was transferred. MR P DU PLESSIS Is it correct if I say that he is dead? MR MAREE Yes. MR P DU PLESSIS Was he also the Commander while you were there? MR MAREE That is correct. MR P DU PLESSIS But in September 89 you did not know him? MR MAREE No, I did not know him, also not Koos Louw. MR P DU PLESSIS MR MAREE No, not at all. MR P DU PLESSIS And you did not do anything that would make that information available to them? MR MAREE No. MR P DU PLESSIS Then lastly, on this aspect, it is possibly so that Mr Aitchison was indeed responsible for the death of Adv Anton Lubowski. Were you at any stage aware of this? Did you contribute to it in any way? MR MAREE No. MR P DU PLESSIS MR MAREE No, not at all. MR P DU PLESSIS Did you at any stage have poison or tablets in your capacity as a member of the CCB? MR MAREE No. MR P DU PLESSIS Do you know if any poisonous materials were found at Aitchison? MR MAREE No. MR P DU PLESSIS Nothing was said about it? MR MAREE No, I never heard about it. MR P DU PLESSIS Very well, I think this concludes this whole situation, concerning this, placed in context as well as with your business activities. To then come back to the whole matter, the reason why you are here, the whole matter around Gavin Evans, we've already placed it in perspective that these events surrounding Gavin Evans were in March 1989, is that correct? MR MAREE Yes. MR P DU PLESSIS You've already said to us what your instructions were, what you received from the co-ordinator Mr Christo Brits, real name Wouter Basson, who already testified. At that stage were you aware of what the final project would entail concerning Gavin Evans? MR MAREE No, not at that stage. MR MAREE Out of your involvement in the CCB, did you consider the possibility that what you are doing may lead to the project concerning Mr Evans, that may include his elimination? MR MAREE Yes, I did realise this. MR P DU PLESSIS And this is now also why you indeed applied for amnesty? MR MAREE That is correct, yes. MR P DU PLESSIS Maybe, while we're dealing with this point, with regards to the other projects that we dealt with, the other members and the whole situation around the planned death of Mr Dullah Omar, the Athlone Bomb and the Apie project, did you know anything about that? MR MAREE No. MR P DU PLESSIS Then just to come back to Evans, the name that was given to you, what was this? MR MAREE It was Gavin Evans. MR P DU PLESSIS Was the name Michael Evans ever given to you? MR MAREE No, it was only Gavin Evans. MR P DU PLESSIS So did you know what information you had to get and how you had to deal with the situation? MR MAREE Yes, it was around Gavin Evans, I knew he was a journalist at the Weekly Mail. He was a sports writer and that's how I identified him. I could not - because I did not have people on ground level, it would be really difficult to do it yourself, you have to use other people to do it. I could not personally make inquiries concerning his address. MR P DU PLESSIS Just on that point, you say that this person was a sports writer. Was he known to you beforehand during that time? MR MAREE No. MR P DU PLESSIS Were you aware that he was a sports writer? MR MAREE No, after I made certain - I found this out at a later stage, actually. MR P DU PLESSIS Did you have a physical description? MR MAREE Yes, there was a photograph available. MR P DU PLESSIS A photograph? MR MAREE Yes. MR P DU PLESSIS So you could then identify this person as Gavin Evans? MR MAREE That is correct. MR P DU PLESSIS After your information functions, what did you do with the photograph? MR MAREE I gave it back to Wouter Basson. MR P DU PLESSIS Is it possible that this is the photograph that was then at a later stage made available? MR MAREE Yes, I'm sure it was the same photograph. MR P DU PLESSIS We are now talking about March 1989, you said that you could not go and look for the address yourself, why is this? MR MAREE I could have done it yes, but I saw it as a covert operation and it would not work if I did it myself. MR P DU PLESSIS Did you have anybody to assist you? MR MAREE No, I couldn't use anybody to go in, to find out where he worked and to monitor his work. MR P DU PLESSIS Were you willing to take the same risk as what Mr Botha ran and not be caught out? MR MAREE No, but what I did - I was not aware that Mr Botha did this. MR P DU PLESSIS But this was only at a later stage? MR MAREE Yes, but what I did was that I pretended over the telephone that I was a friend of his, because he did not want to give his address. This was at the newspaper where he worked. I then got somebody else on the line and I asked them where he lives and this lady gave me his address and that is then the address that I gave to Mr Basson. MR MAREE Could you inquire about further facts that surrounded him? MR MAREE No, it was not that I thought that it was a very small project, but at that stage I was quite involved in my blue plan and that is why I didn't really give more attention to it. MR P DU PLESSIS So you did not physically do any monitoring to gather more information concerning his movements? MR MAREE No. MR P DU PLESSIS This address that you found out, did you then give this to the co-ordinator? MR MAREE Yes. MR P DU PLESSIS And were you then in any way further involved in this project? MR MAREE No that was the end of my part. MR P DU PLESSIS There was evidence of Mr van Zyl that he thinks, he's of the opinion that you were present when he received the instruction to bring the people from the Cape. MR MAREE That is not true. MR P DU PLESSIS To execute this project, he then later under questioning said that he's not quite sure about. Were you there? MR MAREE No, I wasn't. MR P DU PLESSIS Did you have any contact or role in the execution of the project concerning the planning of the death of Mr Gavin Evans? MR MAREE No, not at all. MR P DU PLESSIS Did you at any stage make a pre-study concerning Mr Gavin Evans in the formal sense of the word, concerning the CCB and how they functioned, how they planned his death, that he would be killed with a knife, that it would look like a robbery, etc? MR MAREE Well, the address that I got from this lady from the Weekly Mail, I handed it over to Mr Basson and that was the last aspect that I dealt with. I had nothing further to do with it. MR P DU PLESSIS It is so that you deal with this aspect concerning Mr Gavin Evans in your amnesty application that appears or that is then based on the document that was written or submitted in December 1991 and at that stage you were represented by this same legal team as Mr Burger and Basson. MR MAREE That is correct, yes. MR P DU PLESSIS And these documents were all compiled by the same person? MR MAREE That is correct. MR P DU PLESSIS And you also take responsibility for this document? MR MAREE Yes. MR P DU PLESSIS And is it also so, I'm not going to deal with it in detail, but that there are certain mistakes contained in this document, especially surrounding the question if you would then have gathered information surrounding Mr Gavin Evans or that he was involved in undermining operations against the State? MR MAREE It was not my task. It is written there though, but it was not my task. MR P DU PLESSIS And then if you then could find evidence that he was involved in undermining operations against the State, that you would then act against him. Was that the instruction that you were given? MR MAREE No, it was not the instruction. It appeared in the application as a mistake. MR P DU PLESSIS You've already said that Gavin Evans was unknown to you, but when they gave you instructions to find the address, did you know what organisation he belonged to? MR MAREE I knew that he was from the ECC and that's what Mr Basson said to me, End Conscription Campaign. MR P DU PLESSIS Was this organisation known to you? MR MAREE Yes. MR P DU PLESSIS This was now independently of any information that you had? MR MAREE Well, that was from the newspapers and everybody knew about it. MR P DU PLESSIS What were the activities of this organisation, was that the destabilisation of the Defence Force? MR MAREE Well, that was to break down the morale of the Defence Force in that they do not follow orders, that they were called up to serve and they did not. MR P DU PLESSIS And to add to this, this whole involvement of the CCB, was this based on any specific political philosophies that you personally followed or supported? MR MAREE Well, the politics did count yes, I was in the police for 20 years. I grew up Afrikaans. I also supported the apartheid Government, although you do not find them anymore, everybody just disappeared overnight. MR P DU PLESSIS But you are willing to admit it? MR MAREE Yes. MR P DU PLESSIS With hindsight you can look back and say that yes, it didn't work, that it was not necessary? MR MAREE Yes. MR P DU PLESSIS What was your opinion concerning the Republic of South Africa at that stage? MR MAREE I saw it in the same light, or because I was involved in the cover things, I saw it in the same way as the Israelis saw their homeland, that it belongs to them and that the sovereignty of it must be protected. MR P DU PLESSIS That the Israelis are still doing now today. MR MAREE Yes, that is correct. MR P DU PLESSIS Although we do see today that it's not necessary in this country, that we can live together. MR MAREE That is correct. MR P DU PLESSIS But at that stage that was your political philosophy, that you wanted to protect the State or the Government and your functions in the CCB, you saw that in the light of the philosophy as you just explained it. Is that why you were willing to destabilise the enemy of the State of that time? MR MAREE That is correct. MR DU PLESSIS Thank you Mr Chairman, that is all in chief. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR P DU PLESSIS CHAIRPERSON Thank you Mr du Plessis. I see it's exactly 11 o'clock, so it will be a convenient time to take the short tea adjournment. We'll have a 20 minute tea adjournment. Thank you. COMMITTEE ADJOURNS ON RESUMPTION LEON A MAREE (s.u.o.) CHAIRPERSON Mr du Plessis, do you have any questions you'd like to put to Mr Maree? MR H DU PLESSIS Thank you Chairperson. CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR H DU PLESSIS Mr Maree if I understood your evidence correctly, then you were simply involved in the Evans case because you had to find an address? MR MAREE That is correct. MR H DU PLESSIS You do not have any knowledge whether or not it was submitted as a project to the Chairperson and if so, by whom or what was said to him when this was allegedly done? MR MAREE No. MR H DU PLESSIS I have nothing further, thank you Chairperson. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR H DU PLESSIS CHAIRPERSON Mr Wessels. MR WESSELS No questions thank you Chairperson. NO QUESTIONS BY MR WESSELS CHAIRPERSON Mr Martini? MR MARTINI No questions thank you Chairperson. NO QUESTIONS BY MR MARTINI MR COETZEE No questions thank you Chairperson. NO QUESTIONS BY MR COETZEE MR VAN ECK No questions from my side, thank you Chairperson. NO QUESTIONS BY MR VAN ECK CHAIRPERSON Mr Kahanovitz? CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR KAHANOVITZ Mr Maree, when you had to establish Mr Evans' address, I assume you were aware that the reason you were being called on to perform this task was that it was related to some or other plan to take steps against Mr Evans? MR MAREE Yes. MR KAHANOVITZ What were the nature of the steps that were likely to be taken? What had you been told at that stage? MR MAREE I hadn't been told anything. MR KAHANOVITZ But, were you given any file, apart from the photographs that you've referred to? MR MAREE No, I was not. MR KAHANOVITZ Alright. So you were ... CHAIRPERSON Sorry, Mr Kahanovitz, if I may just intervene. Didn't you ever - am I mistaken, I thought you said Mr Basson showed you a document. MR MAREE Yes, I wasn't given a file, he showed me a document with his address on, that's correct. MR KAHANOVITZ Thank you. So he showed you a document with his address on it? MR MAREE MR KAHANOVITZ Yes. What else was on the document? MR MAREE I can't remember. MR KAHANOVITZ So you were aware that steps were to be taken against Mr Evans, but you weren't informed of the detail? MR MAREE That is correct. MR KAHANOVITZ But you would have been aware, given the nature of the CCB's activities, that in all likelihood, those steps would be unlawful? MR MAREE Correct. MR KAHANOVITZ So to use the words from your training course, it would have been anything from breaking his windows to eliminating him? MR MAREE Correct. MR KAHANOVITZ Now I take it from your evidence-in-chief that you are quite happy to talk about external activities? MR MAREE I am. MR KAHANOVITZ And it would appear to me that the reason for that is that you are saying "Yes, I was deployed outside of the Republic, but there is nothing which I did outside of the Republic which was illegal. MR MAREE Yes. In some European countries, there are operations which I won't talk about. MR KAHANOVITZ You see, because I'm a bit confused. I distinctly got the impression from your evidence-in-chief that you were being led as a witness who was giving us a summary of the broad spectrum of your activities. MR MAREE Yes. MR KAHANOVITZ Inside and outside of South Africa. MR MAREE Yes. MR KAHANOVITZ I didn't hear you say in your evidence-in-chief: "I'm telling you about some of the things that I'm involved in overseas, but I'm not telling you about certain other things that I'm involved in overseas. MR DU PLESSIS Mr Chairman, may I just speak to my client for a moment please? MR MAREE I'm prepared to speak about any overseas operations, anything where I was involved in, which I have made available through my lawyer. In certain instances I prefer not to mention names of people who assisted me overseas for their own safety. MR KAHANOVITZ Just forgetting for a minute about naming names, did you - so you're saying whether or not your activities were illegal, you are prepared to talk about them? MR MAREE Yes. MR KAHANOVITZ Have you, in your evidence-in-chief broadly covered both your lawful and unlawful activities outside of the Republic? MR MAREE Yes, I have. MR KAHANOVITZ So you're telling us you haven't left anything important out? MR MAREE Correct. CHAIRPERSON Sorry, Mr Kahanovitz, just on that question. What unlawful activities did you have overseas, because you've just answered a question saying you've covered both your lawful and unlawful activities overseas and my interpretation of your evidence, well I didn't hear, I can't recall having heard anything unlawful overseas. MR MAREE Mr Chairman, certain things I may have done overseas, may amount in that country to espionage or something, it could just be going through that country and doing something, that I've done, but there was instruction to go and do anything unlawful overseas, that's what I mean. MR KAHANOVITZ If I understand, just in broad terms, all you ever did overseas was, let's forget about Namibia for a minute, all you ever did was establish business contacts. It may be that at some stage in the future, that business front or those business contacts were to be used for some other purpose. MR MAREE That's correct. MR KAHANOVITZ But as I understood your evidence, up to the point that you left the CCB, whatever business initiatives you had launched outside of the Republic were never used for purposes of spying, for instance. MR MAREE That's correct. MR KAHANOVITZ Or for any other unlawful purpose. MR MAREE Correct. MR KAHANOVITZ What you appear to be saying in your evidence-in-chief was that you were aware that if Staal Burger says to you: "Here Mr Maree, here's the money to go to Germany. Go to Germany, here's the money to start a business, etc, etc, he's not doing that for your personal benefit, he's doing that because he intends to deploy you at some stage in the future to perform CCB activities? MR MAREE Correct. MR KAHANOVITZ All you're really saying is up until the time that the CCB was disbanded, you were never informed what the nature of those activities would be. MR MAREE That's correct. MR KAHANOVITZ But surely it must have been intimated to you what the nature of those activities would be? MR MAREE No, it wasn't. MR KAHANOVITZ So you were happily going off to - planning to go and live in Germany and you had no idea in your own mind after you'd moved your family there, moved into a house, established business and so on and so forth, you had no idea in your own mind what tasks you might be called upon to do. MR MAREE No, I think that would be speculation. Any intelligence work, you'd have to put a base down and then you would receive your instructions as to whatever you had to do once you were there. MR KAHANOVITZ Yes, but we know you weren't working for the NIA or a pure intelligence gathering organisation. We know you were working for the CCB. MR MAREE Yes. MR KAHANOVITZ And that the CCB did not exist for the purposes of gathering pure intelligence, that's been the evidence all along. MR MAREE Yes. MR KAHANOVITZ So if you were being sent to Germany, you weren't being sent there merely to collect information. MR MAREE I don't think you quite understand. Everybody in the CCB weren't operators who had to go and eliminate people, there were back-up people as well and logistics people to help people, so everybody, if you worked in the CCB, it doesn't necessarily mean that, as the evidence said that's what the CCB does, there has to be back-up. MR KAHANOVITZ What do you mean when you say there has to be back-up? MR MAREE For example, in Europe, arranging safe houses, finances, logistics. MR KAHANOVITZ Yes, I can understand that you need to find out where the target lives, you need to plan escape routes. MR MAREE No, that's not what I said, no, that's not my evidence. MR KAHANOVITZ Well what are you going to use your safe house for? MR MAREE No, no, not for me. If somebody else in the unit needed to use it, the host agent in that particular country, because he would know the local conditions, could assist in doing that, arranging a house and things like that. MR KAHANOVITZ Right. So you were going to be the CCB's man in Germany? MR MAREE Well, this is what I presumed, yes. MR KAHANOVITZ Alright. Why Germany? MR MAREE I don't know. MR KAHANOVITZ So you went through all these stages and you agree to move to Germany and you had absolutely no idea in your own mind why the CCB was in the least bit interested in Germany? MR MAREE No. CHAIRPERSON Did you not ask? Did you not say well, why not Belgium, or some other country? MR MAREE No, Sir, they asked me or they told me that they need somebody established in Germany and I went along with it. I had no reason to ask why. MR KAHANOVITZ You see, it's easier for us to understand here when we know that the ANC had bases, if you talk about Zambia and so on, or Angola, everybody understands that evidence and why the CCB might be interested in operating in Zambia or Angola. Why might the CCB need a safe house in Germany, that's what we don't understand. MR MAREE I can't answer that. I don't know. I didn't make the decision. MR KAHANOVITZ Okay. But what's also interesting is, I don't know if you were here, but neither Mr Burger certainly made no mention of the evidence that you've just given, so he can't help us. Do you speak German? MR MAREE No, I don't. CHAIRPERSON Whereabouts did you actually establish in Germany? MR MAREE In Stuttgart. MR KAHANOVITZ And you also have no idea why it would be Stuttgart, as opposed to Berlin or Munich? MR MAREE No, I don't. MR KAHANOVITZ Mr Burger just told you go to Stuttgart. MR MAREE No, no, I went to Munich first and then from there to Stuttgart. MR KAHANOVITZ Yes, but who said: "Go to Stuttgart?" MR MAREE I did it on my own. MR KAHANOVITZ Why Stuttgart? MR MAREE That's where my business contacts for the Lema contract was with them, most of the businesses were in the Stuttgart area, that's why I decided on Stuttgart, in place of Munich. MR KAHANOVITZ And what kind of business was Lema going to do there? MR MAREE I placed advertisements for German business partners in German newspapers. MR KAHANOVITZ To perform what sort of business? MR MAREE Trade with South African business. MR KAHANOVITZ But what form of trade? What was going to be sold? MR MAREE I asked for German products in South Africa, agricultural products and from South Africa, the other way around, sorry. Agricultural products from South Africa electronic stuff from Germany and I received on that about 20 or 30 replies with people we would like to meet and most of them were from the Stuttgart area. MR LAX Can I just interpose, Mr Kahanovitz, while you're looking at your papers? What puzzles me is that you seem to have gone to establishing a base in Germany without any guidelines whatsoever. You see, if one's going to establish a base somewhere, surely you must have in your mind a broad picture of what objectives you're going to have. What purpose is that base going to serve. What are the broad nature of the operations that are going to be conducted, so that you can have an appropriate structure in place to serve whatever purposes you're going to need. You didn't have any of that. MR MAREE What I had, I think, is I had a reasonably successful blue plan here and I think they wanted the same thing in Germany, if I could establish the same kind of base in Germany. MR LAX But you see you're saying: "I think this is what they wanted." MR MAREE Well, there was nothing else given to me Sir, this is what they told me. As what you've done here, see if you can establish in Germany. MR LAX You see it just sounds so improbable that here they would go and spend all this money, send someone to Germany, move your family there and you, the person on the ground, don't actually know what it is that you're setting all this up for. You're setting it up as the blue plan. so this was just an extension of your blue plan, without any other guidelines at all? MR MAREE Nothing at all. I was to establish myself in Germany as what I had done in Natal and in Johannesburg. MR KAHANOVITZ And what have safe houses to do with blue plans? MR MAREE No, this was speculation when you asked me. MR KAHANOVITZ Alright. So you're saying the only thing you could think of when I asked you what you might be doing in Germany was that you speculated that it might have involved, at some stage in the future, finding safe houses? MR MAREE No, your question was what did I think somebody could be used for in Germany and as an example I said maybe to get somebody a safe house or something like that. MR KAHANOVITZ Would it make more sense to you if your version was something along the lines of: "We had a discussion about where I should be placed in Germany. It was said to me that the ANC has got an office in Berlin therefore it was suggested that I place myself in Berlin so that we could monitor their activities"? I would understand your evidence if that had been your evidence. MR MAREE I can't give that evidence because that's not what happened. MR KAHANOVITZ Alright. Now weren't you sent to Europe to arrange for the import of high tech military equipment? MR MAREE During the stay in Germany if something like that had to come up, as I testified in the criminal case, then I was to try and acquire that, yes. MR KAHANOVITZ Tell us about this criminal case. MR MAREE I can't remember the accused's name anymore. There was somebody caught taking currency out the country. MR KAHANOVITZ Yes. MR MAREE And he said the CCB and I in particular went to the Reserve Bank and drew ten million rand or something. I was responsible for it, so I testified on behalf of the State that this was not the case. MR KAHANOVITZ Alright. But did you not give evidence in that case that you were sent by the CCB to operate as a covert agent for the import of high tech military equipment and that to this end you had undertaken a four month trip to six European countries in early 1990? MR MAREE I did not testify, if you check the record, that I ran an agent in Europe. MR KAHANOVITZ Excuse me. MR MAREE I did not testify that I ran and agent in Europe. MR KAHANOVITZ I wasn't asking you if you ran an agent, I'm asking you whether you gave evidence to the effect that the CCB sent you to Europe to attempt to broker business deals to purchase high tech military equipment. MR MAREE Yes. MR KAHANOVITZ They did? MR MAREE No. That was my evidence and that was part of the brief while I was there if this did come up, I was supposed to do that. MR KAHANOVITZ Now understand correctly. You agree you gave that evidence? MR MAREE Yes. MR KAHANOVITZ But are you telling us now that that evidence might not have been true? MR MAREE No. MR KAHANOVITZ Alright. Well if your evidence was true, it follows that the CCB sent you to Europe to try and broker business deals to purchase high tech military equipment. MR MAREE I can't understand what the difference is. I agree with this. MR KAHANOVITZ You agree with me. Fine. CHAIRPERSON I think what Mr Kahanovitz is getting to you, was that your brief when you went to Europe or part of your brief was to go and try to broker deals to get military equipment back to South Africa. MR MAREE Yes, this was not with the initial planting. This happened at a later trip to Germany. MR KAHANOVITZ Can you ... MR MAREE There was more than one trip to Germany. MR KAHANOVITZ Yes, what year are we talking about when the purchase of military equipment first ...(intervention) MR MAREE 1990. MR KAHANOVITZ 1990. Alright. Did you go on a four month trip to several European countries in early 1990? MR MAREE Yes. MR KAHANOVITZ Did you broker business deals for the acquisition of raw material for the South African Defence Force? MR MAREE I tried. MR KAHANOVITZ You tried. Did any of those deals succeed? MR MAREE No. MR KAHANOVITZ There was still a United Nations Resolution in effect at that stage, as I understand, that weapons could not be sold to South Africa? MR MAREE Yes. MR KAHANOVITZ In other words, you were attempting to engage in what has been referred to as sanctions busting? MR MAREE Yes. MR KAHANOVITZ Now ... MR MARTINI Sorry Chairperson, in the interests of time, what is the relevance of this to the acts for which this applicant seeks amnesty? I'm only objecting to this just because of time constraints. MR KAHANOVITZ Do I need to answer? CHAIRPERSON He's asked for it, but my understanding is that the evidence-in-chief was led to include the activities of Mr Maree, no only in Namibia but also abroad, to put the whole operation relating to Evans in perspective. That's what Mr du Plessis said. MR MARTINI Sure Chairperson, but there must be relevance to what we're doing here, otherwise we could carry on for ... CHAIRPERSON I think if - Mr Kahanovitz, you realise that we are limited with time and we are essentially only concerned with the Gavin Evans operation. MR KAHANOVITZ I understand that Mr Chairman. I will - I think the point is fairly obvious, but I'll make it more obvious in a minutes. Mr Maree, if I can endeavour to summarise your evidence then, up to a particular stage you were sent to Europe to establish contacts to get to know the territory, so on and so forth, but you didn't yet know that one of your functions would be sanctions busting. MR MAREE No. MR KAHANOVITZ Is that - in 1989 while you were establishing business contacts and so on and so forth in Europe, you didn't yet know that you would be asked to assist in sanctions busting? MR MAREE Mr Chairman, the sanctions busting, I wasn't given a specific task to go and do this or do this, in a general brief while I was overseas and I could make contact, I was supposed to do that, but I wasn't given a specific brief, "Go to this armaments factory and procure arms". MR KAHANOVITZ I'm just trying to understand why in your evidence-in-chief and why when I was asking you questions to please explain the purpose of your presence in Europe, you made no mention whatsoever of the fact that you were eventually deployed to assist in the procurement of arms and that therefore that was one of the purposes of establishing yourself in Europe. MR MAREE I don't think we understand each other. That wasn't the main reason that I was there. MR KAHANOVITZ Your lawyer was asking you questions-in-chief right and you gave evidence about going to Germany and so on and so forth. Correct? MR MAREE Yes. MR KAHANOVITZ You remember that? You were then asked questions, where it seemed unclear to both myself and to the members of the Committee as to exactly what the purpose was of deploying you in Europe, remember those questions? MR MAREE Yes. MR KAHANOVITZ Throughout that evidence you at no stage said: "Eventually it became apparent to me for what purpose I was being deployed or what one of the purposes was of my deployment in Europe, namely to assist in the procurement of arms." MR MAREE I take your point, but I don't think its - that wasn't an instruction of mine: "Go to Germany and procure arms", that's why I didn't mention it in my evidence-in-chief. MR KAHANOVITZ But you subsequently, on your own evidence, you subsequently received an instruction to do just that. MR MAREE No, I said if during my trips in Germany I can get this, I should do it. Nobody gave me instruction: "Go and procure this particular arm." If it came my way, I was supposed to try and do this. MR KAHANOVITZ So if you happened to be travelling on the underground and you happened to overhear a conversation about somebody might want to sell arms, then you would just sort of take it up with them, if happened to come your way. Is that your evidence? MR MAREE No, that's not my evidence. MR KAHANOVITZ Well, you agree with me you have to do something. MR MAREE But I didn't do anything. MR KAHANOVITZ But you've already agreed that you gave evidence to the effect that you travelled on a four month trip in an endeavour to broker deals for the acquisition of war materials. MR MAREE That was part of the four months trip. MR KAHANOVITZ That's doing something, do you agree with me? MR MAREE Yes, okay. CHAIRPERSON Sorry. Just to clear it up Mr Maree, you said you went in 1989 to establish yourself in Stuttgart. MR MAREE Yes, Sir. CHAIRPERSON And that you were going to get your family across and everything else and check out the schools, housing, etc, so why now are you talking about a four month trip to Germany? Weren't you in Germany sort of like on a semi-permanent basis, having a home there? MR MAREE No, not yet Sir. I went on a trip first to establish contacts and check on the housing and schooling. I returned and I went later again a second time. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Mr Kahanovitz. MR KAHANOVITZ Just to clarify. The second time, did you in fact physically move to Germany? MR MAREE No. MR KAHANOVITZ You told us you were called back to South Africa and you were here at the time of the Harms Commission. MR MAREE That's correct. MR KAHANOVITZ I assume then that you were subsequently told: "Go back overseas". MR MAREE That's correct. MR KAHANOVITZ By the way, as far as I understand you gave no evidence at the Harms Commission. MR MAREE No I didn't. MR KAHANOVITZ I assume they were endeavouring to trace your whereabouts to subpoena you to give evidence. MR MAREE No, they weren't. MR KAHANOVITZ They weren't interested in you. MR MAREE No, I gave a statement to Mr McNally, but he didn't call me. MR KAHANOVITZ Alright. You also said in your evidence-in-chief that when you were establishing these businesses in, business contacts in Zambia, Botswana, Swaziland, Namibia, Lesotho, so on and so forth to give you freedom of movement. MR MAREE Yes. Sir. MR KAHANOVITZ What would you do with your freedom of movement once you had it? MR MAREE That was part of the covert work. You must have freedom of movement so that you can move freely without being compromised. MR KAHANOVITZ Yes, that I understand fully, but if your evidence was: "I needed to be able to go to Lusaka, so that I could do this, that and the other", then I can understand your evidence. You say: "I need to establish a business in Lusaka, so that I can have freedom of movement in Zambia", but that's not your evidence. Your evidence appears to be, you needed freedom of movement to go to these countries, but we don't understand what you were going to do once you could get there. MR MAREE I didn't know either, I hadn't received any instructions. MR KAHANOVITZ Alright. And what any of this has to do with operations in Natal, could you explain that? MR MAREE Sorry, I don't understand. MR KAHANOVITZ This freedom of movement that you would have in Southern Africa, how would any of this relate to the fact that you were tasked to perform operations on behalf of the CCB in the province of Natal? MR MAREE Natal was given to me but I hadn't performed any operations there, but to make it that I could move to Natal without any suspicion or without questions being asked, that's why I opened a second company, so I could move to Natal and have freedom of movement in Natal. MR KAHANOVITZ I understand that. That gets you as far as Durban, but now you want to travel from Durban to Lusaka. MR MAREE Yes. MR KAHANOVITZ If you can freely travel from Durban to Lusaka, how does that relate to your activities in Natal? MR MAREE I don't understand what you're asking me. MR LAX Perhaps I could help you. It's really quite simple. You were to focus on KwaZulu Natal, correct? MR MAREE Yes. MR LAX And in order to do that, your blue plan entailed starting Lema in Jo'burg, setting up Capall in Durban, then you had a linkage between Jo'burg and Durban, you could move between Jo'burg and Durban and then based in Durban, you could move around Natal. MR MAREE Yes. MR LAX However, working in KwaZulu Natal is one thing, working in Zambia and Namibia and Swaziland is a completely different thing. MR MAREE Yes. MR KAHANOVITZ What is the relevance of working in Zambia and Namibia and those places in relation to working in KwaZulu Natal? You see just to compare you to Mr van Zyl, for example, he was supposed to work in the Cape and he set up structures so that he could do that and he did, but he didn't work in Swaziland, he didn't work in Lesotho, he didn't work in Namibia. MR MAREE Okay. MR LAX He was based in the Cape and he moved between Jo'burg and the Cape and one would have thought that you would move between Jo'burg and KwaZulu Natal, but instead you end up in Germany and Namibia and all over the place and you don't do any work in KwaZulu Natal, so that's what's puzzling everybody here. Do you understand? MR MAREE Ja. MR LAX Well not everybody, but it's certainly puzzling me because your primary focus of your job was to work in KwaZulu Natal. Your blue plan was supposed to be to facilitate that. MR MAREE My blue plan, I did it so that I can have access in Natal. Because I had a company exporting to Africa, I had to move to - I had to go to these countries, not for any operations, to do my blue plan. There was no other thing that was intended there. MR LAX But you see, that's what also puzzles me. If your job was to work in KwaZulu Natal, then Capall was sufficient to facilitate that. MR MAREE Yes. MR LAX Why do you need a company that's trading with the rest of Africa, which doesn't have anything to do with being based in KwaZulu Natal. MR MAREE No, no first of all, the first company, Lema, was a company that worked with the rest of Africa. Natal didn't - Capall didn't work with the rest of Africa. MR LAX Precisely, that's precisely the point, do you understand? MR MAREE I'm sorry, I don't understand what your point is. MR LAX You see, we were led to understand, your evidence comes in the context of the evidence we've already heard and the evidence we've already heard is that people were regionalised and that you were given KwaZulu Natal to work with. MR MAREE Okay. MR LAX The purpose of the blue plans was to provide cover in your areas of operation. MR MAREE Yes. MR LAX So why establish Lema which has got nothing to do with your area of operation, because it's between Jo'burg and the rest of Africa? Just hear the rest of the question. Rather than just establish Capall which provides a good base in Durban for you to work in the rest of KwaZulu Natal? MR MAREE Okay, Lema was established before I was given Natal. That was in January of 1989, I think, so that was established first and then Capall was established after that. MR LAX So when were you given KwaZulu Natal? MR MAREE I'm not sure. I'm not sure, Sir. MR LAX Well then how do you know Lema was established? MR MAREE Well, as soon as I got out, Lema was established first of all, myself for a blue plan and the reason why I opened up Capall was when I was given Natal, I had to move away from Jo'burg, that's why I opened a second company. CHAIRPERSON Mr Kahanovitz. MR KAHANOVITZ Do I understand - let me rather ask you the question this way. Did you recruit any unaware members in the province of Natal? MR MAREE No, I didn't. MR KAHANOVITZ Did you conduct any red plan activities on behalf of the CCB in the Province of Natal? MR MAREE No, I didn't. MR KAHANOVITZ So the long and the short of it is that your evidence is that you did nothing for the CCB in the province of Natal? MR MAREE I did not operations for the CCB, no. MR KAHANOVITZ Now the purpose of the blue plan was to provide a cover for your red plan activities? MR MAREE Yes. MR KAHANOVITZ And the bottom line is you established the cover but you never used that cover in order to engage in offensive activities in the province of Natal, that's your evidence? MR MAREE Well the evidence, it hasn't been established, I was busy establishing it. I was in the process of doing a good cover up. MR KAHANOVITZ Alright. And you don't find it at all strange that at no stage during that period Staal Burger came to you and said look, jobs A, B and C need to be carried out in Natal, please take the necessary steps? MR MAREE No. MR KAHANOVITZ That's not strange? MR MAREE Not at all. MR KAHANOVITZ And on the other hand, Mr Burger is quite happy for you to be establishing blue plans in several other parts of the world. MR MAREE Yes. MR KAHANOVITZ But it seems that you were performing tasks in just about everywhere else in the world, except for Natal. MR MAREE Well this might be so, I was establishing blue plans, which I was given instructions to do and I did that. MR KAHANOVITZ You appear to have been the CCB's first multi-national operative. Now just to deal with your amnesty application, if we can go to page 20 of bundle A paragraph B at the top of the page of paragraph 8, it's the same question I put to various other of the operatives who used the same form, you say you were in Special Forces from 1988 through to 1991. MR MAREE That's correct. MR KAHANOVITZ But your evidence has in fact been that you left Special Forces in order to become part of the CCB. MR MAREE No, it wasn't my evidence at all. MR KAHANOVITZ Well, what is your understanding? Weren't you told that you must uncouple yourself from the SADF? MR MAREE No, I'm the wrong witness. I'm a policeman, not the SADF. MR KAHANOVITZ I'm not going to go through this. I'll leave this for argument. Now the date that you give on that page for the Evans incident, March 1989, now is that when you were instructed to establish his address? MR MAREE I can't remember off-hand but I'm taking it according to this ...(intervention) MR KAHANOVITZ No, I'm not asking you according to, I'm asking why you put the date of March 1989 there, what the relevance is? MR MAREE I presume at that stage it was fresh in my mind. I could recall that. MR KAHANOVITZ Alright. MR MAREE That must have been the information that I gave the attorney too when he asked me. MR KAHANOVITZ MR MAREE I didn't have anyone. I don't know about the other operatives there, I didn't have one. MR KAHANOVITZ But why can't you just go and find yourself a criminal like Mr van Zyl and ask him to find out where Mr Evans lives? I don't understand the problem. MR MAREE People worked differently. That's not my method of working. CHAIRPERSON Sorry, just on this. You were a policeman for many years, Murder and Robbery, to establish the address of a person who is not on the run, who is unaware that somebody is trying to find his address, who goes to work to and from his home every day, got no reason to hide, what's the difficulty with that? Couldn't you have just phoned up a friend or contact to say look, give me this guy's address, or just establish it yourself with ease, especially with your police background? MR MAREE I could do that but I would have to compromise myself by letting the people know where I was and get somebody from the police they would want to know what am I trying to do. So the whole idea that I thought I was trying to do is not compromise myself and I did use a telephone and try, so nobody could trace it, do inquiries by telephone. CHAIRPERSON Did you look in the phone book for his address? MR MAREE He wasn't there. CHAIRPERSON He wasn't there. You looked? MR MAREE Yes. CHAIRPERSON Mr Kahanovitz. MR KAHANOVITZ I thought Mr Lax had a question. Alright page - by the way, what do you do for a living at the moment? MR MAREE I'm a farmer. MR KAHANOVITZ What happened to these companies that were established? MR MAREE I still have them. MR KAHANOVITZ How are they doing? MR MAREE Very well. MR KAHANOVITZ Page 23 of bundle A, you're asked to say on whose orders you carried out these tasks. You mention the name of Staal Burger and you mention the name of Joe Verster. MR MAREE Yes Sir. MR KAHANOVITZ But you don't mention the name of Gen Webb, why is that so? MR MAREE I didn't receive orders from Gen Webb, I got them from, some from Joe Verster and some from Staal Burger. MR KAHANOVITZ Alright. Let's go to the body of your application. Now I've read this application, well it's very short, I read it carefully, there's no mention in here of the fact that you were responsible for the province of Natal, do you agree with me? MR MAREE I do. MR KAHANOVITZ Any particular reason why you left that out? MR MAREE Didn't do anything wrong in Natal. MR KAHANOVITZ Because you did nothing there? MR MAREE Yes. MR KAHANOVITZ Alright. Nothing wrong there. Were you ever asked to account to the Government or the State for the income of profits derived from businesses which were set up with CCB money? MR MAREE No, I wasn't. MR KAHANOVITZ Would you care to make an estimate of the extent to which you have financially benefited? MR MAREE With the initial input from the Defence Force? MR KAHANOVITZ Well let's take a yard stick, by the end of 1990, approximately a year, a year and a half, maybe two years, depending on which date which company was established, how much money did you manage to make from these various companies that you'd established? MR MAREE I used the money from Lema to finance the other two companies and I didn't draw a salary, because I drew other people in without involving the Defence Force, the company paid for their salaries then and this was on the course which Mr Verster set out, this was the way it should actually operate so you don't draw money from the Government, the company must run itself. MR KAHANOVITZ Alright. So at the end of 1990, how many companies did you have operating? MR MAREE Three. MR KAHANOVITZ Three. What approximately was the total turnover of those three companies? MR MAREE In 1990? MR KAHANOVITZ Yes. MR MAREE I'm going to have to guess here, I honestly don't know. MR KAHANOVITZ Yes. MR MAREE Maybe R500 000. MR KAHANOVITZ Alright. Now just returning then to your application at page 28, just read paragraph 3 to yourself, or maybe read it into the record. MR MAREE NO TRANSLATION " In my hoedanigheid as lid van die BSB was ek betrokke by sekere projekte. Ek is geadviseer dat my betrokkenheid by een van die projekte, welke projek ek hierna beskryf, mag meebring dat ek my moontlik aan strafregtelike oortredings skuldig maak." "In case I do make myself guilty of such offences, I therefore according to the Act of Indemnity, apply for it." MR KAHANOVITZ Right. Now it's clear from the way that this is phrased, that there's considerable doubt as to whether anything that you did in fact amounted to an offence. MR MAREE That's correct. MR KAHANOVITZ And the reason why it's phrased in that way becomes apparent when you read paragraph 4. Just read paragraph 4 into the record. MR MAREE "During approximately March 1989, I received an instruction to monitor Gavin Evans in order to determine whether or not he was involved in undermining activities towards the State. I was aware that if I were to find evidence which would indicate that the aforementioned Evans was indeed involved in undermining activities towards the State, there could be possible action taken against him and that such action would be violent by nature and could possibly have his elimination as a consequence. However I never received any instruction to take any steps against him with the objective of possible violence against Gavin Evans. Before the opportunity arose for me to carry out my instruction to monitor Evans, I was given an instruction to go abroad and the project for Gavin Evans was taken away from me." MR KAHANOVITZ Now, why were you in doubt as to whether your conduct amounted to an offence? MR MAREE I was of the opinion that I hadn't done anything wrong, my legal advice was that I should have foreseen that even if it was a compartment of the crime, that it forms part of the crime. MR KAHANOVITZ Alright. so your thinking was that: "If all I did was establish the guy's address, that can't be a crime"? MR MAREE Ja, but my legal advice was not that. That was my thinking, yes. MR KAHANOVITZ Good advice that you got. Now, you've already agreed that the first sentence in that paragraph, that your instructions were to monitor him to establish him, sorry in order to establish whether he was involved in activities undermining the security of the State, that's false? MR MAREE Yes. MR KAHANOVITZ Now the next sentence is also false. It must be so because the two are logically linked together. MR MAREE Yes. MR KAHANOVITZ You agree with me, it's false? MR MAREE Yes. MR KAHANOVITZ Now, the final sentence of that paragraph "Before I could execute my order to monitor Gavin Evans, I was given an instruction to execute a project beyond the borders of South Africa and the Gavin Evans project was taken from me." That's also false? MR MAREE No it's not. MR KAHANOVITZ But your evidence-in-chief has been, "I was tasked to establish his address. I took a while to do it, but I did it." Nothing to the effect of: "I couldn't establish his address because I was sent overseas on another project." MR MAREE I understand, sorry, I understand that. Maybe the wording is not correct, yes. MR KAHANOVITZ No, no, it goes a lot further than that. I'll tell you why you've inserted that sentence there in that way, because it's in line with the fact that the entire paragraph is a lie. What you're telling the reader is the following. You tell the reader that you were going to establish whether he was involved in activities undermining the security of the State. That's the first thing you say. The second thing you say is that you realise that after you'd carried out that monitoring activity, that information might have been used for purposes of his elimination. Are you with me? MR MAREE I'm with you. MR KAHANOVITZ But then you go on to tell the reader that you actually never got round to monitoring him because you went overseas which is why it can't be said that you've committed an offence. In essence you say: "I was asked to monitor him, but I never got, but I couldn't monitor him, even though I was asked to, because I was sent out of the country. MR MAREE That's what it says, yes. I understand. MR KAHANOVITZ Well, the whole thing is a lie. MR MAREE Yes. MR KAHANOVITZ Yes. I was just going to - it appears a lie but this was the legal people that drew up, it wasn't - as a previous witness also has said, we can say what we want to, but this comes from our legal people. I'm not pushing the blame to anybody. CHAIRPERSON Because usually if there's a distortion, it's to reduce the culpability of the writer. Here it's just the opposite. You know if you say: "Look I had the task to establish the address, I did that, I didn't really know why they wanted the address except I believed that it was to take certain steps against Mr Evans of which I didn't know whether it was to break his window or kill him, I didn't know, but just to get his address", which is very, very straight forward, simple, it's against the law with that knowledge that steps might be taken against him, you might have been an accessory before the fact. I don't know if it can be said that you were a conspirator, but in any even that would be for argument, but nothing too serious. It's just difficult to comprehend, now this version then comes in, that you were there to monitor him which never happened. MR MAREE No, it didn't happen. CHAIRPERSON Mr Kahanovitz. MR LAX You see, sorry, your purpose wasn't even to monitor him, it was just to get his address. MR MAREE To establish an address, yes. MR LAX Monitoring is something quite different. MR MAREE I agree. MR KAHANOVITZ Alright. I'm just, I want to clarify. You're now - Mr Basson's evidence, I just want to see if you agree with his evidence. Mr Basson says that Staal Burger instructed you to use indirect members to trace Gavin Evans' whereabouts, is that correct? MR MAREE I don't think he told me directly, I would have done that myself, I can't remember Mr Burger giving me that instruction. MR KAHANOVITZ Well somebody has to tell you to establish his address. MR MAREE No, that I can do, but telling me that I must do it with an indirect member, that I would do by myself. MR KAHANOVITZ Well, I'm just putting to you what Mr Basson's evidence was. Mr Basson said you dragged your feet in doing this. MR MAREE That may be his perception, yes. MR KAHANOVITZ Well, is it a correct perception? MR MAREE Well I dragged my feet in this particular thing, but the reason for that was that I was trying to run two or three businesses at that stage. MR KAHANOVITZ How long do you think it would have taken you to - or, you knew that he worked at the Weekly Mail, correct? MR MAREE Yes. MR KAHANOVITZ So his work address you could establish by looking it up in the phone book? MR MAREE Yes. MR KAHANOVITZ Home address? MR MAREE That I did not know. MR KAHANOVITZ Yes, but how much work was involved, you were involved in all these other things that you didn't have the time. MR MAREE We can sit and discuss it now, but at that time, the reality of the situation was that I was, it wasn't a major thing in my life to do this, to trace this address. CHAIRPERSON Sorry, Mr Maree, how long did it in fact take you to get the address, from the time Mr Basson spoke to you until the time that you provided it? MR MAREE Two days, Sir. Two days and three telephone calls. CHAIRPERSON Two days? MR MAREE Ja. I didn't want to phone continuously ...(indistinct), so I give two days to redial again. CHAIRPERSON I was under the impression that it was far longer than two days. MR MAREE Oh, no, no, sorry, how long it took me to actually trace? CHAIRPERSON Yes. MR MAREE No, no, it took long since I was given the instruction, it took much longer than that, sorry. CHAIRPERSON What sort of period are you talking about, months or weeks? MR MAREE Months. CHAIRPERSON Months. Yes, thank you. MR KAHANOVITZ Did they bother you at all and say: "Where's this guy's address? What are you doing about it?" MR MAREE No they didn't. MR KAHANOVITZ They didn't bother? Alright. Now I just want to put - Mr van Zyl, I put to him your version to the effect that you were never involved in the framing of any plans to eliminate Gavin Evans. That is your version? MR MAREE Yes. MR KAHANOVITZ Mr van Zyl gave evidence to the effect that your version is untrue. Mr van Zyl's understanding is that you were indeed involved in the framing of plans to eliminate Evans and that Evans was your project. MR MAREE This is not so. MR KAHANOVITZ If that's Mr van Zyl's version, is he not telling the truth? MR MAREE He's not correct, no. MR KAHANOVITZ I see. I want to give you yet another version, that of Joe Verster's. This appears, you don't need to go there but just for the purpose of the record, at page 190 of Bundle A, paragraph 1.1 he says the following "During 1989, members of the CCB were given an instruction to monitor one Gavin Evans in Johannesburg. The persons who were involved in this were Staal Burger, Slang van Zyl, Calla Botha and Wouter Basson." Now you'll note your name's not mentioned. MR MAREE That's my evidence, yes. MR KAHANOVITZ So for a start Verster doesn't mention you, we've also received no evidence to the effect that Calla Botha was given instructions to monitor Gavin Evans. Are you aware of any evidence which supports that? MR MAREE No, I'm not. MR KAHANOVITZ No, you're not. Your alias, was that Stefan le Roux? MR MAREE That's right. MR KAHANOVITZ I just want to refer you to the diary entry in Mr Basson's diary of the 9th of May 1989, where it refers to the priority targets of various people. Next to your name it says Evans and the figure 2 appears, the number 2. Maybe I must just show you the page. Maybe if your lawyer can just show you the diary entry for the 9th of May. MR LAX Just to make it clear, the 2 is not in relation to your name. CHAIRPERSON Yes, I see the 2, my one the 2 is next to Deon. MR KAHANOVITZ Sorry, the question was not properly put. Next to your name only the name Evans appears. Now ... MR DU PLESSIS Sorry, could we just get a date? CHAIRPERSON 9 May. MR MAREE Okay, I see it. MR KAHANOVITZ Now van Zyl's evidence has been that Evans was your project and by that he meant that you originally were tasked to eliminate Gavin Evans. Now it could also be argued that this diary entry in fact supports that evidence because we know that Mr van Zyl was tasked to eliminate Dullah Omar, we know that Calla Botha was working on Bruce White, we know that Staal Burger was working on "von Finkelstein". Why are you, according to this diary entry, then tasked with Evans? MR MAREE I can't answer, that's not my diary. I can speculate. MR KAHANOVITZ Yes? MR MAREE The name was given to me by Basson who wrote the diary and he didn't show me documentation to trace Evans. Maybe you should ask Basson. MR KAHANOVITZ But you see this is in May. You've told us that to the best of your recollection, the steps you took to establish his address were in March, isn't that so? CHAIRPERSON That it took some months. MR KAHANOVITZ So you're telling us that it may well be that you still hadn't established his address in May? MR MAREE It's possible Sir, I don't know. MR KAHANOVITZ And your speculation is that that would be the only reason why your name would be linked to Evans in May. MR MAREE That's not the only reason, it could be one of the reasons, I'm speculating. MR KAHANOVITZ What other reasons could there be? MR MAREE I don't know, I'm speculating. MR KAHANOVITZ Alright. Then return to Bundle A, page 30. We've already agreed that the general nature of the evidence contained in paragraph 4 is false, but this statement that you were sent, the top of page 30 "because you were sent out of the country on a project, Gavin Evans was taken away from you." Were you in fact sent out of the country at that stage on a project? MR MAREE Yes, I was. MR KAHANOVITZ What project are you referring to there? MR MAREE If I can recall correctly, I'm thinking off the top of my head now, it was to Greece. It wasn't a project, it was setting up, doing a business deal with a businessman in Greece. MR KAHANOVITZ What kind of business deal? MR MAREE We were trying to buy a rent-a-car business on the Island of Rode. This was not funded by the CCB, it was part of my blue plan, part of Lema's thing. MR KAHANOVITZ Was this an independent business initiative of your own? MR MAREE Yes. MR KAHANOVITZ In fact it had nothing to do with the CCB? MR MAREE Yes. CHAIRPERSON The use of the word project is then clearly incorrect. MR MAREE It's incorrect. I considered it as a project because of my blue plan, but it wasn't a project as in an operational project, no. MR LAX But you surely wouldn't have been given an order then either. MR MAREE No. MR LAX So that's also not true. MR MAREE No. MR KAHANOVITZ Right. Paragraph 5, just read that into the record. MR MAREE "I only heard later that one Abram Slang testified before the TRC that there were plans to eliminate Mr Gavin Evans. However, I was not involved at all in the formulation of such plans or made any attempt to execute such plans." MR KAHANOVITZ I'm just going to put it to you, that paragraph's also false because at the time you drafted this statement, you were aware that plans were implemented for his elimination, correct? MR MAREE Yes. MR KAHANOVITZ You were also aware that the reason why you were asked to establish his address, was part of the planning phase of that conspiracy to eliminate Mr Evans. MR MAREE No, I disagree with that. MR KAHANOVITZ You're sent off by the CCB to find out where the man lives, correct? MR MAREE That's correct. MR KAHANOVITZ You find out afterwards that a plan was implemented to eliminate him. MR MAREE Yes. MR KAHANOVITZ You put 2 and 2 together, what does it tell you? Why was I sent to establish the man's address? MR MAREE I'm ...(intervention) MR KAHANOVITZ Because they wanted to kill him. MR MAREE No, I'm missing the point here. This was - when the statement was made I was aware then, but not at the time when I was tasked to get his address. MR KAHANOVITZ I'm putting it to you on the basis that you drafted, you signed this statement at the time that you were aware, even on your own version, that a plan had been implemented to eliminate Mr Evans, correct? MR MAREE Yes. MR KAHANOVITZ At the time you ...(intervention) MR MAREE Yes. MR KAHANOVITZ So you ask yourself, you're aware even at that time, you've already admitted this in your evidence, "They sent me to find his address. I knew that the reason that they were doing that was because they intended to take steps against him." MR MAREE I understand, sorry. MR KAHANOVITZ Correct? MR MAREE Yes. MR KAHANOVITZ Subsequently you find out what the nature of those steps was, they wanted to kill the man. Correct? MR MAREE Yes. MR KAHANOVITZ So you say to yourself, why did they send me to find out his address? Because they wanted to use that information as part of a plan to kill him. Correct? MR MAREE Yes. MR KAHANOVITZ So therefore to say "I was not at all involved in the formulation of such plans, nor was I involved in any attempt to execute such plans" is wrong, because you were involved in the preparatory stages of the implementation of that plan. MR MAREE If we look at it the other way, that's why I'm applying for this. That's why I'm applying for amnesty in the first place. MR KAHANOVITZ Why were you doing work in the Transvaal on Mr Evans? MR MAREE I don't know. MR KAHANOVITZ Well, we don't know either. We're told that Mr Botha was given the Transvaal and we're told that you were given Natal. But we're now told that you were the guy who was checking up on Evans in Transvaal. Could you explain that to us? MR MAREE No, I can't. MR KAHANOVITZ You've got no idea? MR MAREE No. MR KAHANOVITZ Well we don't either. MR P DU PLESSIS Sorry Mr Chairman, but there was also evidence that although specific problems were allotted, that it didn't mean that the operative couldn't operate anywhere else. CHAIRPERSON Yes, no we're aware, but I think the question was fair, if he knew why he was given that. MR KAHANOVITZ But it also appears at this stage of the game that you could operate anywhere in the world, so maybe ... Now Mr van Zyl says in his evidence that an in-house was held in March 1989 regarding Gavin Evans and he says that you were in fact present at that in-house. MR P DU PLESSIS But Mr Chairman, he also, questioned by myself, conceded that he may be incorrect. MR KAHANOVITZ I just want - I'm putting Mr van Zyl's original evidence to you. CHAIRPERSON But what do you say to that? MR MAREE No, it's not true. MR KAHANOVITZ In fact Mr van Zyl not only testified that you were at that in-house, Mr van Zyl says that you relayed, let me put this question in context. Mr van Zyl was being asked: "Why do you say that Evans was Maree's project?" and one of the reasons he gave, was he says that you relayed certain information to him about this project. MR MAREE No, that's not true. MR KAHANOVITZ So, just for purposes of the record that's at page 1374, of the typed record. Do I take it then that your evidence is that in fact you never even discussed the Evans project with van Zyl? MR MAREE No, I didn't. MR KAHANOVITZ You had no reason to ever have a discussion with van Zyl about the Evans' project? MR MAREE No. CHAIRPERSON Did you, as a member of the CCB, after attending that initial course, ever have occasion to have contact with your colleagues, Mr van Zyl, Mr Botha and others? MR MAREE Yes, I did, we had weekly meetings. CHAIRPERSON You had weekly meetings. Sort of scheduled, every week you had a meeting? MR MAREE Yes, Sir. CHAIRPERSON Even if there wasn't anything really specific to discuss? MR MAREE Yes. MR KAHANOVITZ Now ...(intervention) MR LAX Sorry, just while we're here. These weekly meetings, how did they work? MR MAREE We would arrange, each one would get a turn to book an hotel room and we'd meet at that particular hotel room and that's how we'd meet. MR LAX Yes, but what would happen? Would you all be present together in the same room? MR MAREE We were initially present together. If there was work to be done, each one would come in separately to speak to the Co-ordinator and Mr Burger, so I wouldn't be present if van Zyl was meeting them or if Botha was meeting then and so too, they wouldn't be present when I was meeting them, but we would be there to do our administration and car logs and finances. MR LAX And would you have general meetings where all of you were present and general matters were discussed applicable to all of you? MR MAREE Yes. I think so, yes. MR LAX What sort of issues would be discussed there? MR MAREE Maybe medical - I'm just trying to think off-hand now, medical bills and more administrative kind of stuff. MR LAX ; You never discussed policy together? MR MAREE No. MR LAX So you all understood the guidelines better? MR MAREE I think informally we did that, yes, but not at a formal meeting. MR LAX Thank you. MR KAHANOVITZ Were you told to concentrate on Trade Unions in Natal? MR MAREE Yes. MR KAHANOVITZ Who told you that? MR MAREE Mr Burger. MR KAHANOVITZ Mr Burger. What was going to be the purpose of those activities? MR MAREE No, I don't know, it was in the initial stage, he gave me advice, "If you're working in an hotel, see if you can get into Trade Unions and into the Motel Indian Congress", that was my ... MR KAHANOVITZ In the sense that that was the enemy? MR MAREE Yes. MR KAHANOVITZ Right. And did you ever do anything about it? MR MAREE No, I didn't. MR KAHANOVITZ Did you have difficulty adjusting to your new job in the CCB? MR MAREE I had difficulty in adjusting, not in the CCB, I had difficulty in adjusting to my blue plan, getting these businesses going. I didn't envisage that it would run away with me. I battled to keep up with the business world because it wasn't my forte at all. That's why I went on courses, to try and keep up, it grew too quickly so I couldn't, I was in a catch 22 position. MR KAHANOVITZ You see, if someone in the CCB had to say the following, I just want you to comment, if they were asked: "Why did you appear to do so little in Natal?" and the answer they gave was: "Well, you had difficulty adjusting to the working methods of the CCB", what would your comment be? In fact you had, let me phrase it a bit stronger, you had a lot of problems. MR MAREE Ja, I did have a lot of problems trying to run two companies with no experience, I had major problems there, yes. MR KAHANOVITZ In other words you're telling us you were so focused on your business that you didn't really have the time to get involved in the Natal Indian Congress and the Trade Unions? MR MAREE Well, the business to me, as I said, initially it didn't go about the money, it was important to me to establish it because without that I couldn't function. MR KAHANOVITZ Yes, I understand your evidence, you say you can't separate the two issues. MR MAREE Yes, Sir. MR KAHANOVITZ You had to establish your business first. MR MAREE That's what I tried to do. MR KAHANOVITZ That's what you saw as your priority. MR MAREE Yes. MR LAX Can I just say this though, or ask this if I may? Those sorts of issues about dealing with business and being inexperienced and basically being stretched to the limit, that's got nothing to do with not being able to adapt to the military style of management. MR MAREE No, the military, I had no problem with the military, I was in the police for 23 years, so I have no problem with that. MR LAX Well you see the focus of the comment that Mr Kahanovitz put to you was put in that context. You were a policeman and you weren't used to the military way and that was why you had trouble fitting in. MR MAREE Well my opinion is not that, maybe the military would have a different opinion to that, yes. MR KAHANOVITZ Just for sake of completeness, the source of that evidence was Wouter Basson, that's at page 2264 of the record. He says "I think he had a lot of problems to adjust to the new methods and modus operandi." Now evidence has been produced that there was an interest in Jay Naidoo. Were you ever asked to look into Jay Naidoo? MR MAREE No, I wasn't, Sir. MR KAHANOVITZ Evidence was produced at the Harms Commission and the Harms Commission found that there was a CCB plan to kill an attorney in Durban, Mr Mhlaba and that plan was to be implemented on the 13th of March 1989. MR MAREE No, I never heard of him before. MR KAHANOVITZ Never heard of him. Alright. Now as regards the Omar project, were you at any stage during 1989 aware that there was such a project? MR MAREE I'm just trying to think, no, not in 1989 no. MR KAHANOVITZ So you never attended a single cell meeting where it was mentioned that there was such a project? MR MAREE No. MR KAHANOVITZ And in fact the first time you ever heard of the Omar project, was when it was divulged at the Harms Commission, is that what you're saying? MR MAREE That's correct. MR KAHANOVITZ So you guys never chatted amongst yourselves? MR MAREE No, I didn't. Maybe that's what Basson meant, that I wasn't, coming from a police barrack, you're inclined to work alone and in the military you work maybe in a bigger group. I believe - with any of my operations I tried to cut off and do it professionally. Nobody must know what I'm doing and I expected the same from them. MR KAHANOVITZ Yes, but there's already been evidence that cell meetings were held at various hotels, you would arrive there, somebody would be making a presentation or somebody would be about to make a presentation, so you would overhear things that weren't necessarily your project. MR MAREE Yes, I never overheard anything about ... MR KAHANOVITZ You never heard anything, alright. And I ask you the same question in relation to the Early Learning Centre project. MR MAREE Also not, no. MR KAHANOVITZ Project Apie? MR MAREE No. MR KAHANOVITZ Now, is it so, would it be correct to say that you mainly worked outside of the Republic of South Africa? MR MAREE Yes. MR KAHANOVITZ And would it be correct to say that that work was being done on behalf of Region 6? MR MAREE Yes. MR KAHANOVITZ Now, I want to deal with your involvement in the Namibian elections. Now evidence has already been produced that the CCB was going to focus its attentions on Namibia in the pre-election phase. Did you attend the meeting where various projects related to Namibia were discussed? MR MAREE I can't remember it off-hand but I know that there were instructions that Namibia was a priority, yes. MR KAHANOVITZ Priority. Were you aware of the fact that production bonuses were promised to people for successful projects completed in Namibia? MR MAREE Yes. MR KAHANOVITZ You were? MR MAREE I can't remember specifically who said, but I can recall hearing a conversation to that effect, yes. MR KAHANOVITZ That there would be financial rewards for a job well done. MR MAREE Yes. MR KAHANOVITZ Do you have any recollections to what sort of figures were mentioned? MR MAREE No. MR KAHANOVITZ MR MAREE Yes. MR KAHANOVITZ What is your understanding of what the word handler means? MR MAREE A handler is a person who guides somebody else in covert work, you look after this person's interests. MR KAHANOVITZ What did you, when you introduced yourself to Donald Aitchison, what did you tell him you did for a living? MR MAREE I told him I was from the Security Police. MR KAHANOVITZ That sounds like a fantastic cover. MR MAREE I didn't need a cover because I already received a CV, he was - I was handed him from somewhere else and on his CV he was ex-Rhodesian and he was this big operator, so ...(intervention) MR KAHANOVITZ Can I just clarify, in fact he was an Irish citizen. MR MAREE Yes. MR KAHANOVITZ But he fought on behalf of the Rhodesians. MR MAREE In Rhodesia, that's correct yes. MR KAHANOVITZ And he styled himself as, amongst other things, a mercenary. MR MAREE That's right. MR KAHANOVITZ But you - are you saying you didn't need to create a cover for Aitchison? MR MAREE No, I didn't need to create a cover because my instruction with him was to put him as a sleeper, so I can't go and tell him I'm a businessman and you must then go and be a sleeper, it just doesn't work like that. MR KAHANOVITZ So what did you tell him? You said: "I'm from the Security Police and I want you" to do what? MR MAREE We need - first of all I just questioned him a bit when we spoke to see if he knows about Intelligence work and he obviously had ...(indistinct) background, he knew what a speaker was and I explained to him that that's what I wanted him to do. He must settle himself in for 5 years, because at that stage the election was just about to come on, so that we could reactivate him after the election, three, five years time. MR KAHANOVITZ But I understand your evidence to be that you didn't know how he came to be recruited. MR MAREE No, I didn't. MR KAHANOVITZ Who put you in contact with Aitchison? MR MAREE Mr Burger. MR KAHANOVITZ He told you to go and meet this guy in a hotel? MR MAREE Ja, he gave me the telephone number of Mr Aitchison and his CV yes and told me I must go and meet this guy. MR MAREE Ja, he gave me a telephone number of Mr Aitchison and his CV, yes and told me to go and meet this guy. MR KAHANOVITZ How did Mr Burger get introduced to Mr Aitchison? MR MAREE I don't know. I don't know if he was introduced to him. MR KAHANOVITZ So he just says: "Phone this guy at the hotel, he may be of use to us. You go talk to him"? MR MAREE No. MR KAHANOVITZ What does he say? MR MAREE MR KAHANOVITZ And you don't ask any questions as to where this CV comes from or anything. MR MAREE No, well a CV was given to me, I don't ask him for that. There were obviously questions in regard to Namibia, what he must do. He must be a sleeper, that was instructions. MR KAHANOVITZ You see what I don't understand in your evidence-in-chief you said that it came as a great surprise to you after Aitchison was arrested, to discover that Aitchison before meeting you had met Ferdi Barnard and had met Calla Botha. MR MAREE It was. MR KAHANOVITZ MR MAREE Yes. MR KAHANOVITZ And he must have told him that he'd met the guy, so how could it be a surprise to the CCB that Aitchison knew Calla Botha. CHAIRPERSON He didn't say it was a surprise to him. MR MAREE It was a surprise to me. MR KAHANOVITZ Except it goes, well maybe we can canvass this issue with Mr Botha when he gives his evidence. He deals with it in his statement. But if I understand, your evidence is that if you'd known that Aitchison knew who he was really working for at the time that you'd recruited him, because he'd spoken to Mr Barnard and Mr Burger, you wouldn't have used him. MR MAREE Definitely not. MR KAHANOVITZ Just to clarify for the record, why? MR MAREE Because I would have been compromised. MR KAHANOVITZ So he played along and when you came and told him you were from the Security Police and so on and so forth, he just played along. MR MAREE Yes. MR KAHANOVITZ Now after Aitchison was released from detention in Namibia, he made a statement to the South African Police. I just want to put certain allegations contained in that statement to you, just for purpose of the record, that statement, I don't have a copy of the statement anymore, it was handed up as an exhibit at the inquest into the assassination of Anton Lubowski, but I still have our heads of argument from that matter where we deal with the contents of that statement. Statement dated 14 January 1991 and it was taken by Lieut Col Eager of the Brixton Murder and Robbery Squad. Now Aitchison says that you contacted him, he obviously knew who you were by the time the statement was taken, and arranged to meet him at the Ascot Hotel in Norwood Johannesburg. This is the first time they met, correct? MR MAREE That's correct. MR KAHANOVITZ He said you asked him if he was willing to go to Namibia and you told him to go there and hire a house, correct? MR MAREE That's correct. MR KAHANOVITZ He says at that stage you didn't tell him what he would be required to do, once he got there. MR MAREE I beg your pardon? MR KAHANOVITZ He says you didn't tell him what he would be required to do once he got there. MR MAREE Ja, I think - he was a sleeper, that's what he was supposed to be doing. MR KAHANOVITZ Yes, but what was he going to do when he woke up? MR MAREE I'll use different terminology so you can understand. MR KAHANOVITZ Yes, I understand the concept of a sleeper, but what - you obviously both had a common understanding that he was going to be utilised for a particular purpose after he had established himself. What was that purpose? MR MAREE There was no purpose explained to me. MR KAHANOVITZ Alright. You gave him your pager number to contact him in the future. MR MAREE Correct. MR KAHANOVITZ He says in August 1989 he had meetings with you in Swaziland and Johannesburg. MR MAREE I met him on a few occasions in Swaziland, yes. MR KAHANOVITZ By the way, part of those meetings in Swaziland were to give him money. MR MAREE Yes. MR KAHANOVITZ What was he going to use the money for? MR MAREE His sustenance, to live. MR KAHANOVITZ Why were you meeting him in Swaziland? MR MAREE I timed that with my company things for Lema, so have a cover to be at a particular place at the right time. MR KAHANOVITZ Why didn't you just deposit money into his bank account in Windhoek? Why do you have to go and meet in Swaziland just to give him money, that's what I don't understand. MR MAREE I'm not sure what the particular thing, he had some problem and I made a plan to be in Swaziland to give him that money at that time. MR KAHANOVITZ What was his problem? MR MAREE I don't know. I can't remember particularly what the problem was. CHAIRPERSON We don't really need all these fine details Mr Kahanovitz. I'm not wanting to stop you, but just to remind you, we're not going to make any findings on the dealings between this witness and Aitchison, we're not briefed for that. MR KAHANOVITZ Aitchison says that you gave him explosive devices which were to be used to sabotage SWAPO vehicles. MR MAREE No. MR KAHANOVITZ You deny that? I thought you might. He says that you told him to give these to a man by code name Taxi who would place them MR MAREE Never heard of him. MR KAHANOVITZ Alright. He says you told him to take photographs of the house of Gwen Lister, the editor of the Namibian, establish what car she drove and take notice of who her contacts were. MR MAREE No. MR KAHANOVITZ You deny that. MR MAREE Absolutely. MR KAHANOVITZ He says that at this meeting where he received his instructions, you were in possession of a photograph of Anton Lubowski. MR MAREE That's not true. MR KAHANOVITZ He says that you gave him the registration number of Lubowski's car and you told him to keep a look out for it. MR MAREE No, that's not true. MR KAHANOVITZ He says he met with you on the 10th of September 1989 at the Kalahari Sands Hotel in Windhoek where you gave him an instruction to attempt to use poison to murder Gwen Lister. MR MAREE No. MR KAHANOVITZ You deny that? MR MAREE Absolutely. The meetings in Namibia were at the Sands Hotel. MR KAHANOVITZ He said at a subsequent meeting he discussed with you the difficulties that he was encountering in executing the plan to poison Gwen Lister. MR MAREE No, his problems were with housing. MR KAHANOVITZ He said that he returned to the cottage that he'd hired on a particular day thereafter and he found a parcel that had been left there for him, containing an AK47 and two magazines, this was on the 11th of September, 1989, the day before Adv Lubowski's assassination. MR MAREE I can't comment about that. MR KAHANOVITZ He says that you phoned him and told him to take this "parcel" to the Kalahari Sands Hotel between 8 and 9 o'clock in the evening on the following day. MR MAREE No. MR KAHANOVITZ He says, he denies, Aitchison denies involvement in shooting Lubowski, what he does say is that after Lubowski was shot, he phoned you, you told him that he should go to Lusaka for a few days and that you would meet him there. MR MAREE This is not true. MR KAHANOVITZ Now the meeting that was held in Johannesburg, that's referred to in Mr Botha's statement, were you here yesterday when we dealt with the instruction being sent to destroy the guest register at the Norwood Hotel? MR MAREE Yes. MR KAHANOVITZ Were you at that meeting? MR MAREE Yes. MR KAHANOVITZ You confirm that an instruction to steal that hotel register was given at that meeting? MR MAREE Yes. MR KAHANOVITZ Do you confirm that you were instructed to go into hiding? MR MAREE No. MR KAHANOVITZ That's incorrect. MR MAREE I was - there was no plan at that stage. When Botha took the register, I wasn't given instruction then. MR KAHANOVITZ Excuse me? MR MAREE At what stage are you - at this meeting? MR KAHANOVITZ Yes. Mr Basson said ... MR MAREE Not at that meeting, no. MR KAHANOVITZ Well whether it - were you at any stage in or about, or let me rephrase the question. Were you at some stage shortly after Lubowski's assassination instructed to go into hiding? MR MAREE In December and January 1990. MR KAHANOVITZ "Particularly Maree and Burger." MR MAREE Yes. MR KAHANOVITZ Were you particularly worried? MR MAREE Yes, I was. MR KAHANOVITZ Why were you particularly worried? MR MAREE Because I'm directly attached to this guy, I'm handling him. MR KAHANOVITZ So you thought maybe this guy killed Lubowski. MR MAREE Well, he was arrested, it was a problem for me, absolutely. MR KAHANOVITZ But why might he have killed Lubowski? MR MAREE No, I didn't say he killed, I don't know, but I'm connected directly to this guy who had been arrested. MR KAHANOVITZ Alright. Now, but it struck you as conceivable that Aitchison merely off his own bat had decided to assassinate Lubowski, is that your evidence? MR MAREE No, I don't think off his own bat. MR KAHANOVITZ Who might have asked him to do it? MR MAREE I'll be speculating. At that stage in Namibia, everybody was running around in Namibia, not just the CCB and Military Intelligence. CHAIRPERSON But what Mr Kahanovitz is asking you, did you perceive that it was possible that he might have been the person who ...(indistinct - speaking simultaneously) MR MAREE That he might have been used, yes. MR KAHANOVITZ Because he was the kind of person who you were aware, if you offered him enough money, certainly he'd said to you: "If you pay me, I will kill someone". MR MAREE No, he didn't say that to me. MR KAHANOVITZ But we've already had evidence that he held - Mr Burger has already admitted that Aitchison held himself out as a hit man. MR MAREE Yes, but he didn't tell me that. He didn't tell me: "Give me money, I'll kill somebody." MR KAHANOVITZ What does it mean to say if someone holds himself as a hit man? He's saying to you: "If you pay me enough money, I'll kill someone for you." MR MAREE That's the evidence of Mr Burger. I can't judge by Mr Burger, that's what Mr Burger understood by it. MR KAHANOVITZ What did you understand? MR MAREE I understood Aitchison to be an ex-mercenary, or ex-Zimbabwean operator and at one stage I told Mr Verster and Mr Basson: "I'm concerned about him because he's playing James Bond. The CIA is following him, the KGB is following him around. I'm trying to calm him down." So I was concerned that he's playing games, he's playing spy-spy and I reported that to... MR KAHANOVITZ What quality did he have that led you to utilise him in Namibia? MR MAREE He didn't have qualities that I would use. He was put on me to place there, so I didn't recruit this guy. MR KAHANOVITZ You see the only quality is, and I use that word advisedly, that I'm aware that Aitchison purported to have, was an ability to kill people. MR MAREE MR KAHANOVITZ Now, just to return to that meeting. What Mr Botha says "It was then recommended" at the same meeting, "that Maree should leave and that he should lie low." MR MAREE I think Mr Botha's timing is wrong there. This only came in in December of 1989. MR KAHANOVITZ But Mr Botha's evidence makes sense and this is in fact confirmed by Mr Basson yesterday. If you're worried about being linked to Aitchison and Aitchison has been arrested and you wish to avoid arrest and detention, it makes sense for you to go and lie low. MR MAREE The facts prove that I didn't lie low at that stage. I mean if it makes sense or not, I didn't, I only went in December of 1989. MR KAHANOVITZ I'm open to correction, but I have a fairly clear recollection of the evidence yesterday from Mr Basson, was that you did in fact go and lie low. MR MAREE I went overseas in December of 1989. MR KAHANOVITZ So the bottom line is, if anybody says that subsequent to that meeting, you went to lie low because you were worried about being arrested or detained, arising out of the assassination of Adv Lubowski, that evidence is untrue? MR MAREE I missed the gist of your things, give them again. MR KAHANOVITZ If anybody says that after this emergency meeting you went to lie low because you were worried that you might be arrested or detained on suspicion of involvement in Adv Lubowski's murder, they're not telling the truth. Is that your version? MR MAREE No, that meeting, at that meeting it didn't transpire. I didn't go and lie low after that meeting. MR KAHANOVITZ Did you ever go and lie low because you were worried that you might be arrested for Adv Lubowski's assassination? MR MAREE Yes, that's what I explained to you, in December 1990, that's what we're arguing about. CHAIRPERSON 1989. MR MAREE 1989, sorry, yes. MR KAHANOVITZ Your version is after, I forget who, the first person who was arrested, was it Mr Botha or Mr Barnard? MR MAREE I'm not sure which was arrested first. MR KAHANOVITZ You gave evidence-in-chief - was it Botha? MR MAREE Barnard first and then Botha. MR KAHANOVITZ Mr Barnard. MR MAREE Yes. MR KAHANOVITZ You said at the time that those people got arrested, you left the country. MR MAREE Yes, I left the country in December 1989. MR KAHANOVITZ Alright. And one of the reasons that you left, the CCB was about to be exposed, that was the concern. MR MAREE Yes. MR KAHANOVITZ Okay. And in addition you were worried that you might be arrested for the Lubowski assassination. MR MAREE Yes. MR KAHANOVITZ Because you were aware that Jumbo Smit from the Namibian police was doing investigations. MR MAREE Correct. MR KAHANOVITZ Mr Chairman, if I can just have five more minutes, I'd rather then just finish before lunch. CHAIRPERSON Yes, thank you, that would probably be the most convenient thing to do Mr Kahanovitz. MR KAHANOVITZ Were you aware of a plot to assassinate ...(indistinct) Hamutenya in Namibia? MR MAREE No, I wasn't. MR KAHANOVITZ No you weren't. Daniel Tjongarero from SWAPO? MR MAREE No. MR KAHANOVITZ Nico Bessinger? MR MAREE No. MR KAHANOVITZ So you were visiting Windhoek on a regular basis, purely to speak to, to handle Aitchison? MR MAREE To handle Aitchison yes. MR KAHANOVITZ And I assume, run your business. MR MAREE And the business, yes. MR KAHANOVITZ So this whole SWAPO campaign directed, excuse me CCB campaign, directed against the Namibian elections, you played no role whatsoever. MR MAREE No, I think I played a role. I think the reason why Aitchison was given me in retrospect is because I had established a company there and that would slot in there. It would give me movement to go and handle him there. CHAIRPERSON But I think what Mr Kahanovitz is asking, besides setting up your blue plan there and establishing Aitchison, he's asking you, did you play any role at all in the CCB operations relating or concerning the Namibian elections? MR MAREE No, I didn't. MR KAHANOVITZ So, do I take it then that all these projects to doctor oil, poison water holes, burn vehicles, kill people, you had no involvement whatsoever in any of those projects? MR MAREE I had no knowledge of them at all. MR KAHANOVITZ If I might just have a minute? You said in your evidence-in-chief that somebody contacted you while you were in Germany and told you to not come back because all hell's broken loose. MR MAREE Ja, Mr Verster. MR KAHANOVITZ Is it Mr Verster? What did he tell you? MR MAREE He told me that I was to remain in Germany and I would be contacted and told when I should return. MR KAHANOVITZ But why did he not want you to return? MR MAREE Well that was the period that I was lying low for Namibia. MR KAHANOVITZ In other words, words to the effect of: "The Namibian police are looking for you, don't come back to South Africa, you could be arrested." MR MAREE Yes. MR KAHANOVITZ Alright. Where is Donald Aitchison today? MR MAREE I don't know. MR KAHANOVITZ No further questions, thank you. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR KAHANOVITZ CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Well let's see how long it will be. Do you have any questions Mr Hockey? Sorry Mr Rheeder do you have any questions? Ms Coleridge? MS COLERIDGE I do, Chairperson, just a few. CHAIRPERSON Should we handle it now before the lunch adjournment? MS COLERIDGE It won't take very long, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Yes, I think let's finish this witness then we can start ... CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS COLERIDGE Mr Maree, what were you other codenames besides Le Roux? MR MAREE I just had one, Stefan Le Roux. MS COLERIDGE And you said you had a partner that dealt with you in your business, 89, 90. MR MAREE Yes. MS COLERIDGE What was your partner's name? MR MAREE Mr Ehlers. MS COLERIDGE Mr Ehlers. And you said that once you, after Calla Botha and van Zyl were arrested, you informed your partner about the dealings. What did you inform him about? MR MAREE I explained to him that the company that I set up and I brought him into was a front company and that he would be much more active in the company, he would take over the company and he did that then and to inform the staff too what the - because it was going to be in the newspapers anyway. MS COLERIDGE And so he knew that this company was a front company of the CCB and he knew that this involved certain illegal activities, is that correct? MR MAREE He knew that, after I told him in 1990, yes. MS COLERIDGE And is he still your partner? MR MAREE Yes, he is. MS COLERIDGE And then just in relation to your operations, was your operation called, by the CCB, was it called Lema? MR MAREE My project name? MS COLERIDGE Your project name. MR MAREE I can't even remember what, it wasn't called Lema, no. MS COLERIDGE And what was the other operation, Toddler, which was your operation? MR MAREE That was the project name for my blue plan, yes, Toddler. MS COLERIDGE So it was just in relation to your blue plan? MR MAREE Yes. MS COLERIDGE And then just in relation to the DCC, we know that lots of CCB members, about 30 odd of them, worked for the DCC after 1990. MR MAREE Yes. MS COLERIDGE And you were one of them. MR MAREE I was one of them, yes. MS COLERIDGE Your companies that you had at the time, was that also used as front companies for DCC? MR MAREE No, that was finished then. MS COLERIDGE But you still have these companies today? MR MAREE I still have these companies going at the moment, yes. MS COLERIDGE So who operated those companies at that time? MR MAREE My partner. MS COLERIDGE And why did you leave the DCC? MR MAREE We were - after the Goldstone, Judge Goldstone raided the offices and all the CCB people were paid off. MS COLERIDGE Was it because you were involved in illegal activities besides intelligence work, because wasn't the DCC ..(intervention) MR MAREE No because I was ...(indistinct) and for DCC I was working in overseas countries as well, I wasn't working internally. MS COLERIDGE So you're saying, were you dismissed? MR MAREE Yes. MS COLERIDGE For doing nothing, basically? MR MAREE Yes. MS COLERIDGE Thank you Chairperson, I have no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS COLERIDGE CHAIRPERSON Do you have any re-examination Mr du Plessis? MR P DU PLESSIS No thank you Mr Chairman. NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR P DU PLESSIS CHAIRPERSON Mr Lax, any questions? MR LAX Thanks Chair, I've just got two. You said that at one point, this was if you'd realised what the implications of your order to go to Namibia might have been, in retrospect you might have acted differently. That was your evidence. What did you mean by that? MR MAREE In regard to the person I placed there? MR LAX Yes. I'm not sure what you meant, that's what I'm trying to understand. MR MAREE No, I understood the question to be if I had to recruit somebody, why would I recruit somebody like Aitchison and in retrospect, I didn't recruit him, so I had no option, I took him for what he was. If I had to recruit, think of somebody to put as a sleeper, I would not choose him, I'd have chosen somebody else. MR LAX You also said that at the time you were worried about him. MR MAREE Yes. MR LAX What did you do about it? MR MAREE I reported it to Mr Verster and Mr Basson. MR LAX Did you not recommend that he be removed from there? MR MAREE Well, I explained to them and they said I should leave him there. As I say, he had a phobia about being a spy and everybody is following him around and the KGB and CIA and he was taking photographs of people following him around and I was concerned about that. MR LAX MR MAREE Yes. MR LAX And you would have had no doubt after reading that what kind of person he was. MR MAREE Yes. MR LAX And yet you continued to handle him. MR MAREE Yes, that's what I was trying to explain to you that if I had to recruit somebody, I would not have chosen him, I would have chosen somebody else. MR LAX Now besides visiting him from time to time, or speaking to him on the phone, how did you actually handle him? MR MAREE I handled him as you say by phone and speaking to him. Nothing had been ...(indistinct) I was only just supposed to settle him in and this is what I was trying to do, by trying to get him accommodation, trying to get his house, trying to get his kids there and trying to get his furniture and his wife there. That was my initial ...(indistinct) to try and get him settled there. MR LAX The impression I certainly get about him was that he was playing a double game with you. MR MAREE I agree with you. MR LAX You didn't pick that up at all? MR MAREE No, I didn't think that he was playing a double game, but I thought he was playing James Bond, I wasn't aware that he was doing something else, but as I said, I was concerned and I did bring it up with the people, I'm not happy with him. MR LAX Because if half the things he says in his statement are even vaguely true, he was quite busy in Namibia. MR MAREE Apparently. MR LAX And yet you didn't pick that up as his handler at all. MR MAREE No. MR LAX Thanks. CHAIRPERSON Mr Sibanyoni, any questions? MR SIBANYONI Just one, Mr Chairperson. Your partner, you said he accompanied you overseas and the cost was paid by the Defence Force. MR MAREE Yes. MR SIBANYONI Was your partner not aware of that? MR MAREE No. No at that stage he was a minor partner and he was under the impression that I was putting the money in personally, he wasn't aware that the Defence Force was putting this money into the company, so I paid for his ticket, but in reality the Defence Force was paying for his ticket. MR SIBANYONI He didn't know that? MR MAREE No, he didn't know that, no not at all, no. MR SIBANYONI Thank you Mr Chairperson. MR LAX Sorry, just one last thing. Your other business, Capall, did you notify that partner? MR MAREE I notified him as well and I gave him the company when I withdrew because I was too far away from Durban to run it. MR LAX . So do you still have interests in those companies? MR MAREE I have interests in Lema yes. Not in Capall. CHAIRPERSON Yes. Are there any questions arising? No questions arising. Mr Maree that then concludes your evidence, you may stand down now. MR MAREE Thank you Sir. WITNESS EXCUSED CHAIRPERSON Thank you. We'll now take the lunch adjournment. COMMITTEE ADJOURNS ON RESUMPTION CHAIRPERSON Yes, thank you. Mr Coetzee, I take it, is Mr Barnard going to be the next applicant? MR COETZEE Yes, Mr Chairman, Mr Barnard is ready to testify. He will testify in Afrikaans. He can be questioned in English, but will answer in Afrikaans.