amntrans AMNESTY HEARINGS 2000-10-03 JOHANNESBURG 2 PHILLIP RUDOLF CRAUSE AM4125/96 https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=54507&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/2000/201003jb.htm PHILLIP RUDOLF CRAUSE (sworn states) EXAMINATION BY MR VISSER Mr Crause, you were a member of the Security Branch in the Western Transvaal during 1985, is that correct? MR CRAUSE That is correct, Chairperson. MR VISSER You apply for amnesty for any offence or any unlawful acts committed by you because of your part in what is known as the raid of Botswana on the 14th of June 1985, is that correct? MR CRAUSE That is correct, Chairperson. MR VISSER Your application appears in volume 1, from page 77 and you deal with the incident on page 85 of the same volume, is that correct? MR CRAUSE That's correct. MR VISSER Do you confirm the contents of the amnesty application, subject to the evidence that you will give today, as true and correct according to the best of your knowledge? MR CRAUSE That's correct. MR VISSER You have previously already seen the document, General Background to Amnesty Applications, and the references to it. You have read and studied it, do you confirm once again your knowledge of the contents thereof, with the exception to the parts with regard to Lesotho and Swaziland? MR CRAUSE Correct, Chairperson. MR VISSER And do you request that this be incorporated in your evidence? MR CRAUSE That is correct, Chairperson. MR VISSER Mr Crause, in 1985 what was your rank and what was your position in the Security Branch in the Western Transvaal? MR CRAUSE Chairperson, at that stage I was a Captain in the Security Branch. I was stationed at Zeerust as Branch Commander. MR VISSER Yes. And did you people subordinate to you? MR CRAUSE Yes, I had a staff of approximately 12 to 14. MR VISSER What Mr du Preez Smit, another applicant in this matter, was he a staff member of yours? MR CRAUSE Yes, he was my second-in-command. We had an indication from the Panel that we do not have to trouble ourselves further with the general danger that was there from Botswana, I just want you to briefly tell this Committee, were you involved in the collection of intelligence? MR CRAUSE Yes, and my whole staff was involved in the collection of information in Botswana, and this was about ANC, PAC, BCMA, Sayco, all refugees from the RSA. MR VISSER And did you use informers or sources, as they are sometimes known? MR CRAUSE That is correct, Chairperson. MR VISSER And did you yourself handle such informers? MR CRAUSE Yes, I also handled informers. MR VISSER What did you do with the information that you collected? MR CRAUSE All information that was collected, also by the staff members, was placed in writing and it was sent to Head Office in Potchefstroom. MR VISSER How long were you busy with the collection of information, what time period before the 14th of June? MR CRAUSE I arrived at the Security Branch in Zeerust in 1971, and from that stage I was involved in the collection of intelligence. MR VISSER Can you then just briefly confirm that there was an escalation of activities from Botswana from the early '80s? MR CRAUSE That is correct, Chairperson. MR VISSER Did you become aware at some stage of a planning of an operation during the middle of 1985, in Botswana? MR CRAUSE That is correct, Chairperson. MR VISSER And did you become aware of the fact that this would be launched by the South African Army? MR CRAUSE That's correct, Chairperson. MR VISSER Was anything expected of you? CHAIRPERSON When did you become aware? MR CRAUSE This was approximately two or three weeks before the attack. CHAIRPERSON Who told you? MR CRAUSE I was informed by my Commander, Gen Steyn. CHAIRPERSON What did he say? MR CRAUSE He told me that the Army planned an attack in Botswana on certain ANC targets. CHAIRPERSON Was that all? Is that all he said? MR CRAUSE At that stage, that's all he told me at that stage. MR VISSER And did he pass any instructions to you in this regard? MR CRAUSE He only told me that - I want mention beforehand that continually we had files on all terrorists, all activists, anyone who was involved and we sent this through to Head Office. What I mean with that is, we also looked at addresses, where they worked, what their activities were, as far as we could. MR VISSER Did Gen Steyn give you any instructions, specifically with regard to the planned attack? MR CRAUSE At that stage, no, he only told me that they were drawing up a memorandum and that they would give us names later, so that we could check the people. MR VISSER Were you supposed to update information on a daily basis? MR CRAUSE This was done continually. MR VISSER Did you know that information that was collected by you in this manner would find its way to the Army, that would launch the attack? MR CRAUSE I accepted that after I was informed that the Army would undertake an operation. MR VISSER What did you think would happen in Botswana because of the Army's action there? What did you think would happen there? MR CRAUSE I accepted that they would attack houses and possibly MK and ANC collaborators and activists. MR VISSER Did you foresee the possibility that innocent persons would be killed? MR CRAUSE That is always a possibility, Chairperson. MR VISSER Mr Crause, did you ever attend any meetings where information was exchanged and co-ordinated with other regions or divisions? MR CRAUSE This was also done continually, over a long period of time Chairperson. MR VISSER Can you please tell the Committee, on the day of the 14th, where were you? What did you do? MR CRAUSE On the day of the 14th I accompanied Gen Steyn to the border post and there we monitored a truck that took some of the soldiers through. MR VISSER Please describe that truck to us. MR CRAUSE I would describe it as a built-up and sealed truck. MR VISSER And what was inside? MR CRAUSE I did not see them, but I heard that it was the soldiers. MR VISSER And what about equipment? MR CRAUSE I do not know anything about equipment. MR VISSER You do not know. What did you go to do at the border? MR CRAUSE I was went with the General to monitor it and from there I went to a point close to Kopfontein Hek, from where we monitored Botswana Police radio. MR VISSER And what was the purpose of that? MR CRAUSE To listen what the problems would be if problems emanated and to monitor their action. MR VISSER In other words, you wanted to hear what the Botswana Police were telling each other, in case they became aware that there was an attack happening? MR CRAUSE That's correct, Chairperson. MR VISSER What would happen if you realised that they knew about the attack? MR CRAUSE Then we would have monitored and just informed Gen Steyn. MR VISSER Do you know whom the persons were that were killed and/or injured during this attack, and what their identities were? MR CRAUSE I later saw a list of names, Chairperson. MR VISSER And on this list of names, Mr Crause, we have gone through it in consultation, can you tell the Committee whether there were names on this list that are familiar to you or about whom you had information? MR CRAUSE Persons known to me were George Pahle. MR VISSER Please say that again. MR CRAUSE George Cecil Pahle. MR VISSER What number is he? MR CRAUSE He's number 17. MR VISSER Can you please inform the Committee what was known to you about Pahle. MR CRAUSE His house was known to us. We also had information that he was involved in the transport of trained MKs, and that he also received recruits from the RSA, who were on their way for training. MR VISSER Where did he transport the trained MK members to? MR CRAUSE He usually took them to safehouses, Goditsane, Rubatsi and all those places. MR VISSER And in your language and in your understanding of that, were these activities in which he participated of any interest to the RSA? MR CRAUSE Definitely, Chairperson. MR VISSER In what sense? MR CRAUSE It was that he was involved in infiltrations and transport of trained persons to the RSA. MR VISSER Anyone else? MR MALAN Before you continue. You say you had this information, did you have informers that reported to you? MR CRAUSE Yes, we had informers, we had various informers. MR MALAN So you had direct information from the people on the ground with regard to Pahle? MR CRAUSE That's correct, Chairperson. MR VISSER Maybe I should just refer you to what the writer, Stiff, says of Mr George Pahle on page 82 in volume 2. He says "The Security Police maintained George Pahle had planted a bomb at Johannesburg's Carlton Centre in 1976" Do you know anything about that? MR CRAUSE I do not know about that. MR VISSER Was this not information that would emanate from you? MR CRAUSE No, this did not come from us. MR VISSER And then he continues, and if I may skip a few sentences, he and his wife received military training in Angola, do you know about that? MR CRAUSE I do not know about that. MR VISSER And then "They were involved in intelligence work for the ANC" MR CRAUSE I would not be able to say. The second part, that I know about. CHAIRPERSON Listen Mr Crause, the information that was known to you was that he was involved in the transport of MK members to South Africa. Is that all? MR CRAUSE That's correct. And then the receipt of new refugees. CHAIRPERSON But is that all that you know of? MR CRAUSE Yes, that is the information I had. MR VISSER In other words, does this include transport and the provision of a safe haven? MR CRAUSE That's correct. MR VISSER Who else can you tell us about today, other names? MR CRAUSE I cannot testify about them, but I can indeed give evidence with regard to the two addresses that were known. MR VISSER Which addresses were those? MR CRAUSE It was the SMS offices. MR VISSER What does that stand for? MR CRAUSE Solidarity News Service. MR VISSER That is at page 82, it's marked Target 7 on the left-hand side, the top, Chairperson. What was your knowledge about that? MR CRAUSE Our information was that they printed propaganda from there and distributed it to the RSA, and that they had a computer there which could be of interest to us. MR VISSER Because of the information on it? MR CRAUSE That's correct. MR VISSER The printing and distribution of propaganda material in the RSA, was this of interest to the Security Branch? MR CRAUSE Absolutely. MR VISSER Why? MR CRAUSE Because it was propaganda that was distributed and this incited people. MR VISSER And this led to violence? MR CRAUSE That's correct. MR VISSER Any other address? MR CRAUSE And then the ANC Head Office, 2067 and 2068 Tlokweng(?) MR VISSER Chairperson, that's also at page 82 on the left-hand side, the second item. As a cross-reference. What was of importance in those premises? MR CRAUSE Many plans were formulated according to information that we had from those premises and new recruits also arrived there and according to information that we had, weapons were also hidden there. CHAIRPERSON I'll accept Mr Visser, that if it was the ANC's Headquarters, it must have been a target. MR VISSER Yes, you're correct Chairperson. Did you have insight or intimate knowledge of the final memorandum that Gen Steyn testified about, that he submitted at Wachthuis in Pretoria, to Gens Coetzee and Viljoen? MR CRAUSE No, I do not. MR VISSER So you are not able to say which of the names that are here in this application were indeed on that list or not? MR CRAUSE No, I cannot comment on that. MR VISSER And as far as you are concerned, what were the primary targets upon which you concentrated to supply information? Was it people or places or what? MR CRAUSE It was people and places, but can I also add that ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON I do not know whether we understand, but was your question aimed at finding out ... MR VISSER No, no, the question was that initially he had no knowledge of what was on that list. I am asking him now, was this aimed at his intelligence gathering. MR CRAUSE We had many other targets, if we can call it such, I do not know which of those people. MR VISSER So those were premises as well as persons. So you are asking for amnesty for your involvement in this. I believe I did ask you, but if I did not, then the Committee will forgive me. Did you know that the information that you conveyed ... MACHINE SWITCHED OFF ON RESUMPTION MR VISSER Mr Crause, I was busy asking you did you know that the information that was conveyed, as you testified, would be applied as a basis for the Army to act against persons and installations in Botswana? MR CRAUSE This was after I was informed by Gen Steyn that an attack was indeed planned. MR VISSER And did you also know that persons would be killed? MR CRAUSE I was aware of it. MR VISSER And did you accept and did you foresee that innocent persons would also be killed? MR CRAUSE In the process that does happen. MR VISSER By implication you have said it already but let me make it clear, that Smit who was under your command, did he also collect information? MR CRAUSE That is correct, Chairperson. MR VISSER Did he also handle sources? MR CRAUSE That is correct, Chairperson. MR VISSER And did you have insight into information that he collected? MR CRAUSE That is correct. MR VISSER And was that part of the information that you promoted to your Head Office in Potchefstroom? MR CRAUSE That is correct. MR VISSER Thank you, Chairperson. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VISSER MR COETSER I have no cross-examination, thank you. NO QUESTIONS BY MR COETSER MR CORNELIUS I have no question, thank you. NO QUESTIONS BY MR CORNELIUS CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR BERGER I have a few questions, Chairperson. First question, Mr Crause, has three parts. What information - I'm now talking about the information that you, as well as Smit passed on to Mr Steyn, did that information only concern George Pahle and the two addresses, the SNS offices and the ANC Headquarters, or did it go beyond that MR CRAUSE The information with regard to these persons was only as I gave it earlier on, there was no further information given through about it. MR BERGER Perhaps I didn't make myself clear, because just at the end now Mr Visser asked you whether Mr Smit, who was under you, also provided or furnished certain information which you then handed over to Mr Steyn. Now the sum total of that information, was it the information concerning George Pahle and the SNS offices and the ANC Headquarters, as you've already described? MR CRAUSE Positive, Chairperson. I just want to mention that this was only with regard to the persons involved here. There was lots of other information sent through by other persons, but with regard to this list it was only these persons about whom we sent information through. CHAIRPERSON Why did you hand over the information to Mr Steyn? MR CRAUSE All information that we received with regard to all activists, or all MK members, was promoted to our regional office. CHAIRPERSON And two or three weeks before the incident you found out about a possible attack that would be launched by the Army? MR CRAUSE That is correct. CHAIRPERSON Did you hand any information over to Loots or Steyn with regard to that attack or planned attack? MR CRAUSE I can only mention that we did not have the full detail about ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON But did you have any information after you found out that there was a planned attack, that the Army would launch an attack somewhere? MR CRAUSE Chairperson, with regard to other persons we also sent through information. CHAIRPERSON Maybe we are not understanding each other ...(intervention) MR MALAN Mr Crause, and this bothers me as well, let me try and clear this up. You say you continually promoted information. MR CRAUSE That's correct. MR MALAN That is the normal process, that is what the book says, if you get information, the information you put in a report form or whatever and you send it through to Potchefstroom. MR CRAUSE That's correct. MR MALAN Now the question is, at some stage you testified that Steyn told you that two or three weeks before the time the Army was planning an attack. MR CRAUSE That's correct. MR MALAN The question is, after he told you this, did he give you any information afterwards, or did you supply any information to Potchefstroom that was aimed at the attack itself? MR CRAUSE No, at that stage they were already in the process of drawing up memorandums and we did not act on it further. MR MALAN So you never had any dealings with the memorandum or that you knew that it was dealt with with the memorandum? MR CRAUSE No. MR MALAN Do you know whether any urgent intelligence was requested from you with regard to the updating or with specifically Pahle? MR CRAUSE It was asked whether we could determine whether the targets were still there or so, with regard to these three. I'm referring to these three now. MR MALAN But the ANC office would have still been there? MR CRAUSE Yes, the ANC office was continually monitored. MR MALAN And the SNS office? MR CRAUSE Yes, that was also continually monitored. MR MALAN So was it asked of you after Steyn told you to see whether you had any information to Pahle? MR CRAUSE I cannot recall. It could be, but I cannot recall. MR BERGER Thank you, Chairperson. So Mr Crause, the point is that all the information about George Pahle that you passed on to Mr Steyn or Mr Loots, all that information that you passed on was before you had any knowledge that that information was going to be used in an attack on the ANC in Botswana. Would that be correct? MR CRAUSE That is correct, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Any more questions, Mr Berger? MR BERGER I have no more questions, Chairperson, thank you. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR BERGER ADV STEENKAMP No questions, thank you. NO QUESTIONS BY ADV STEENKAMP CHAIRPERSON Mr Visser. MR VISSER No re-examination by Mr Visser. NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR VISSER CHAIRPERSON Thank you, your witness, Mr Crause is excused. WITNESS EXCUSED CHAIRPERSON May we can still hear ...(inaudible) MR VISSER That will be Mr du Preez Smit, Chairperson.