amntrans AMNESTY HEARINGS 2000-10-03 JOHANNESBURG 2 JEFFREY MASUKU AM0169/96 https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=54510&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/2000/201003jn.htm ON RESUMPTION CHAIRPERSON Good afternoon. We are going to proceed. The next matter that we have on the roll concern the applications of Morris Kgoete, amnesty reference AM0145/96, Jeffrey Masuku, AM0169/96, Jacob Manasoe, AM1299/96 and Johannes Ntshabeleng, AM2982/96. The panel is constituted as would be apparent from the record. The Leader of Evidence remains, we are happy to say, Ms Mtanga. On behalf of the applicants, Mr Richard, please put yourself on the record. MR RICHARD I appear for the applicants, A.J. Richard. CHAIRPERSON Thank you Mr Richard. And then on behalf of the interested parties, the victims? MS VILAKAZI L.E. Vilakazi, I appear on behalf of the victims. CHAIRPERSON Thank you Ma'am. Mr Richard, is there anything that you are going to put on record or do you want to proceed with the evidence? MR RICHARD I will proceed to call the applicant. I call, I believe it is applicant number three, Mr Masuku, applicant number two, to give evidence first. CHAIRPERSON Number 2, very well. MR RICHARD The applicant has no objection to being sworn in. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. It is Mr Masuku. Will you please switch on your microphone and stand to take the oath. JEFFREY MASUKU (sworn states) CHAIRPERSON Please be seated. Mr Richard? EXAMINATION BY MR RICHARD As the Chairperson pleases. Mr Masuku, in your application for amnesty you give your place of birth as Tafelkop, is that not correct? MR MASUKU That is correct. MR RICHARD Now, tell me, in and during 1990, were you a supporter of any political organisation or party? MR MASUKU Yes, correct, Chairperson. MR RICHARD Which party was that? MR MASUKU The ANC, the Youth League. MR RICHARD Now when did you become associated with that organisation? MR MASUKU In 1987 I was a member of SAYCO and then when the ANC was unbanned, I became a member of the ANC Youth League. MR RICHARD For the sake of the record, what is SAYCO? MR MASUKU That is a Youth Organisation which represented the ANC whilst it was banned in South Africa. It was formed in 1987. MR RICHARD Now, what do you know about Self Defence Units, what are they? MR MASUKU It is one of the structures which were formed by the ANC Youth League with the intention to protect the community against crime, and again people who were against liberation movements like the ANC. MR RICHARD When you say protect the community against crime, what do you mean? MR MASUKU I am saying that people who were committing crimes against the community and again those people who were killing members and supporters of the ANC, the structure was formed to protect those people. MR RICHARD Were you ever associated with the Self Defence Units? MR MASUKU Yes, that is correct Chairperson, I was a member of the Self Defence Unit. MR RICHARD Where was this Unit operating? MR MASUKU It was operating in Mooihoek and Tsimanyane. MR RICHARD How many people were in the Unit? MR MASUKU I am not sure of the number Chairperson, but we were more than 50. Those were registered members of Self Defence Unit. MR RICHARD Now, you and three other applicants make application for amnesty. Were the other three applicants associated with the same Unit, the same organisation structure? MR MASUKU That is correct Chairperson. MR RICHARD When did you meet your other three co-applicants? MR MASUKU Do you mean before today or before the incident? MR RICHARD Before the incident? MR MASUKU I met with them early in 1992 when the ANC Youth League was formed. MR RICHARD In 1990 when? MR MASUKU In February 1990. MR RICHARD And were they also members of the ANC affiliated organisations? MR MASUKU Yes. That is correct Chairperson. MR RICHARD Now, what was your function within the Self Defence Unit, did you have any special position or status or office to execute? MR MASUKU I did not have a position in the structures, but I was just an ordinary member of the SDU. I did not have any office. MR RICHARD Now, in your papers you make reference to a comrade Mokoena. What were his full names? MR MASUKU It is comrade Kayne Mokoena. MR RICHARD Where did he come from? MR MASUKU He was a resident of Mooihoek. MR RICHARD And what did he do to make a living? MR MASUKU I did not know Chairperson. MR RICHARD Was he associated with taxi's or anything like that? MR MASUKU No Chairperson. MR RICHARD Now, was he politically affiliated to any organisation? MR MASUKU He was one of the supporters of the ANC and then again, he was one of the leaders of the community in Mooihoek. MR RICHARD You mentioned in your application that he died. When did he die? MR MASUKU Mr Mokoena did not die Chairperson, maybe we are talking about another person. MR RICHARD Somebody was killed by the name of Mokoena? MR MASUKU That is Mokoena, not Mokoena. That is Mokoena. MR RICHARD I apologise for my pronunciation. I will go through this again, comrade Mokoena, where did he come from, not Mokoena, Mokoena? MR MASUKU He is a resident of Mooihoek. MR RICHARD What political affiliation did he have? MR MASUKU ANC. MR RICHARD And what structures did he belong to? MR MASUKU He was a member of the ANC motherbody. He was one of the senior members within the ANC. MR RICHARD What sort of livelihood did he pursue? MR MASUKU He was a taxi owner. MR RICHARD Now, when did he die? MR MASUKU He died on the 10th of August 1990. MR RICHARD How was he killed? MR MASUKU He was killed on his way from Tafelkop to Mooihoek, he was attacked by the commuters in his taxi. MR RICHARD Did people know who killed him? MR MASUKU There were three suspects whose names were exposed, Philip Makofani, he is one of them and the other two suspects. MR RICHARD Now, you make mention in your application of taxi's and violence. In your Mooihoek, Tafelkop area, was taxi violence prevalent or hardly known? MR MASUKU Correct Chairperson, there was taxi violence. MR RICHARD How many incidents during 1990 were there that you can recall? MR MASUKU I remember of three incidents. MR RICHARD When were those incidents? MR MASUKU They happened before this particular incident that we are concerned with. MR RICHARD That is before the death of comrade Mokoena or was that one of the three incidents? MR MASUKU Correct Chairperson. MR RICHARD Now, against who was the violence perpetrated? Was it against the members of the ANC or any other political parties, the taxi violence? MR MASUKU It was against people who were taxi owners and many of them were members of the ANC, who were affected by the taxi violence. MR RICHARD When you use the word many, there were three incidents that you talk about, how many individuals were affected by the incidents? MR MASUKU In this three incidents which I have mentioned, three of them were members of the ANC, the victims were members of the ANC. Those are the ones that I remember. MR RICHARD Were there any other incidents of taxi violence where the victims weren't members of the ANC? MR MASUKU Correct Chairperson. MR RICHARD Does that mean yes or no? MR MASUKU Yes. MR RICHARD So there were incidents in your area where victims weren't members of the ANC in the taxi violence, have I understood your answer correctly? MR MASUKU That is correct Chairperson. MR RICHARD How many individuals would have been affected by those non-ANC victims? MR MASUKU I remember one incident where the victim was an ordinary citizen, was not affiliated to any political organisation. MR RICHARD When you describe the taxi industry in your papers, you made comments of who owned the taxi's. Who owned Mr Makena's taxi, your comrade who died? INTERPRETER Please repeat your question. MR RICHARD You made comment in your amnesty application of the ownership of taxi's. You give the impression that various people, other than the drivers of the taxi's, owned the taxi's. I take an example, Mr Mokoena who was killed, who owned his taxi, how did it work? MR MASUKU Mr Mokoena owned those taxi's. He had two, he had a panelvan and a microbus. They were his own. MR RICHARD Now how many other taxi's were operating in the area, were there lots or only a few? MR MASUKU I am not sure of the number, but there were more than 10 taxi's that operated in that route, including the one belonging to Mr Mokoena and Mr Mafehla and others. MR RICHARD Who do you think owned the majority of those taxi's? MR MASUKU In Mooihoek the person who owned the most taxi's was Mr Mokoena, because he owned two and others owned one each. MR RICHARD Do you think there were other nominees who owned taxi's, like policemen or white people or ... MR MASUKU That is correct Chairperson. MR RICHARD How many do you think were owned by people other than the taxi drivers in the area, working in the area? MR MASUKU From five to six taxi's, which I suspected that they are registered by people other than the people who seemed to own them. After a certain period, I would see them driving taxi's. I believe that those taxi's contributed to the taxi violence, because those people were involved in the taxi violence. MR RICHARD In what way did they contribute to the taxi violence? MR MASUKU The people who were killed in the taxi, during the taxi violence, were people who struggled to own those taxi's. The people who were involved in the taxi violence, whom we suspected that they were financed by other financiers, other than themselves. Mr Mokoena used that route for a long time, and the community knew him for a long time, that he is the main source of the transport services in the area. Then thereafter other people entered the industry, that is when the taxi violence started and people were shot whilst they were using those taxi's. We suspected that there are people who were used to kill members of the ANC who were helping the community with the transport services. MR RICHARD Now at page 43 of the bundle, in support of your application, you wrote out a long statement. The sentence, midway down the page reads "... one of the comrades was killed by a taxi owner pirate. Because of this killing that resulted from the taxi's all over the country, more especially after the democratic movements were unbanned, we suspected taxi owners to have been in cahoots with the former government." Now, do you remember writing that sentence? The one that I have just read? MR MASUKU May you please repeat that sentence because I don't have page 43. MR RICHARD It starts here at page 43 "... one of the comrades was killed by a taxi owner pirate. Because of these killings, that resulted ..." there you say you suspected taxi owners to be in cahoots with the former government. You have given various statements so far, is this, are those the reasons why you believed that the taxi industry was in cahoots with the former government? MR MASUKU That is correct Chairperson. MR RICHARD Were there any other factors that led you to this belief? MR MASUKU Yes Chairperson. MR RICHARD What were they? MR MASUKU Other reasons which made me to suspect other taxi owners were in cahoots with the former government to kill other taxi owners, was that most of the taxi owners who were affected by the taxi violence, were, many of them were members of the ANC. And then again even people who were killed, are supporters of the ANC. That is why I suspected that those taxi owners were responsible for killings and the taxi violence, were in cahoots with the former government. MR RICHARD You were a member of the Self Defence Unit in the area, what did you see your function in relation to the taxi violence, as a member of the Self Defence Unit? MR MASUKU My duty was to make sure that the community, or rather that our community and particularly members and supporters of the ANC, are protected from the taxi violence, and when they commuted to work, they would travel safely. Then again the attackers of those members, are not tolerated. MR RICHARD What would you do to protect the community? What did you do to protect the ANC taxi drivers, physically, practically? MR MASUKU If it was known that a particular person was responsible, it was our duty as members of the Youth and particularly Self Defence Units, to search for that particular person and bring him or her before the community where he would be charged. MR RICHARD A different point, do you remember the name Joseph Pirie and Frans M. Magutla? MR MASUKU Yes, I do. MR RICHARD Who were they? MR MASUKU Joseph Pirie was the Commander of the Self Defence Unit in Mooihoek and Frank Magutla was a supporter of the ANC and again was a leader in the community and he was helping the Headman to resolve community issues. MR RICHARD Now, there was another man, Mr Frans Magadema, do you remember him? MR MASUKU Yes. MR RICHARD What did he, what was he in the community at the time? MR MASUKU He was one of Mr Matlala's assistants, he was a Headman at Mooihoek. MR RICHARD Were these people in authority over the Self Defence Unit of which you were a member? MR MASUKU Yes. They had control. MR RICHARD You mentioned that comrade Mokoena died on the 10th of August 1990? MR MASUKU That is correct. MR RICHARD After his death, what happened amongst the community? Did people discuss it, if so, when and where? MR MASUKU On the 12th of August 1990, it was a Sunday, it was in the afternoon, a meeting was called. MR RICHARD Who called the meeting? MR MASUKU The leaders of the community. It was Mr Kayne Mokoena, Mr Magutla, Mr Mahadima and Joseph Pirie and the place of the meeting was at Mr Matlala's residence. We were given a report at the meeting about comrade Makena's death and how he died. According to Mr Kayne Mokoena who was Chairing that meeting, because the Headman, Mr Magube was not present. He explained that Mokoena was killed when he was coming from work, he was killed at Moyideng and we managed to get the names of the suspected killers. Those who were suspected to have taken part in the killing of Mr Mokoena. The names that we received were Philip Makofani, Maredick, Samuel Motlala, the three of them resided at Moyideng. This information was passed over to comrade Pirie. MR RICHARD Were these three suspects a member of any political party? MR MASUKU I bear no knowledge of that, but they were not members of the ANC. MR RICHARD What did the meeting on the 12th, decide to do about them? MR MASUKU A decision was taken that the suspects be found and when they are found, they should come and appear before the meeting. MR RICHARD Sorry, carry on, I interrupted you, sorry. MR MASUKU They said we must inform Mr Magube as well that we managed to find the suspected people and we should not do anything before he was given the report. MR RICHARD Were you at the meeting? MR MASUKU I was present at the meeting on the 12th. MR RICHARD Were any of your co-applicants there on the 12th? MR MASUKU All of them were present. MR RICHARD And then, tell me was a certain Mr Philemon Masetla present as well? MR MASUKU He was present at the meeting. MR RICHARD Who is Philemon Masetla? MR MASUKU We also made an application for his death? MR RICHARD No, but what did he do at the time? How did he earn his living, what was Philemon Masetla, was he a butcher or a baker? MR MASUKU He had a pirate taxi, he was ranking. MR RICHARD Now, when I read that passage on page 43, I think it was, was he the pirate taxi owner that you were referring to? MR MASUKU That is correct. MR RICHARD Now, did anyone at that meeting on the 12th, point to Mr Philemon Masetla and say "you are implicated in Mr Makena's death"? MR MASUKU Nobody. MR RICHARD When did Mr Masetla become connected as a suspect? MR MASUKU After the three suspects were accosted, Philip Makofani and given information that they were hired by Mr Masetla to kill Mr Mokoena. MR RICHARD Who gave that, who received that information? Did you or somebody else? MR MASUKU The information was given to comrade Pirie who was the leader of the SDU. MR RICHARD Were you present when one of the suspects gave Mr Pirie that information? MR MASUKU I was not present. MR RICHARD When did you hear that that was the information that Mr Pirie had received? MR MASUKU We heard on the 15th of August. MR RICHARD When you say we heard, who is we, we is more than just you? MR MASUKU The people who attended the meeting on the 15th. There was another meeting held on the 15th. The intention of the meeting was to give a feedback about the search that was conducted on the night of the 12th. MR RICHARD Were you at that meeting? MR MASUKU On the 15th, yes. MR RICHARD Were your other co-applicants there as well? MR MASUKU Three were present, the fourth one joined later. We did not all arrive at the same time. MR RICHARD Who was the last to arrive? MR MASUKU That is Jacob Lesiba Manasoe. MR RICHARD Now, once Mr Pirie told you this is what he had been told by the three suspects, what did the meeting say? MR MASUKU We did not agree with what Mr Pirie was saying, not all of us agreed with what he was saying. It was then decided that we should go to a sangoma. That was the decision of the meeting, to go and get information about the suspects. Three of the suspects whom we knew, or whom we suspected having taken part in the killing. MR RICHARD Who made the suggestion that a sangoma be consulted? MR MASUKU It is myself. MR RICHARD Was a sangoma consulted? MR MASUKU That is correct. We left for Tafelkop in search of Mr Ragetsu, who was one of the famous traditional doctors in the area and it was well known that he talks the truth. When we arrived his guards did not allow us to see him, even though we saw that he was present. We agreed and then we left. We left for Mrs Mapule Maludla's place and then she told us that she knew another sangoma and she took us to that sangoma. MR RICHARD Who spoke to that sangoma? MR MASUKU Comrade Joseph Pirie, Mrs Mapule Maludla, Mr Hendrik Mokoena, Mr Mokolo, that is (indistinct) father and several others, but we were not more than 10. That is those who went to talk to the sangoma. MR RICHARD Were you or any of the co-applicants with them when they talked to the sangoma? MR MASUKU No. MR RICHARD Where were you when they were talking to the sangoma? MR MASUKU We were left behind at the vehicles. Myself with Moses Gwete, we left for my aunt's place, together with Patrick Masetla. We went to my aunt's place to search for food. MR RICHARD Now tell me when the people came back from the sangoma, what did they tell you? MR MASUKU They did not tell us anything. Joseph Pirie said to us "let's get into the vehicles and leave". That is what we did without asking any questions. MR RICHARD And then what was the next instruction? MR MASUKU We arrived at Mooihoek and dashed straight to the school. When we arrived at the school, we were divided into groups. David Pirie took Mokoena and comrade (indistinct) got into another classroom. We knew them as leaders. The rest of us were left in the other room, and I left the room because it was very hot. After a few minutes I saw Mr Kayne Mokoena, Frans Magutla and Mr Moses Masetla. Mr Joseph Pirie came into the classroom where we were. We expected to hear what the sangoma had said and he explained to the people, he explained to all the comrades who were in the classroom that Mr Philemon Masetla was pointed out as the killer of comrade Mokoena. We were supposed to leave with him, that is the Youth, to go and get Mr Masetla from his home. We left with Mr Kayne Mokoena and Mr Masetla, for Mr Philemon Masetla's home. On our arrival ... MR RICHARD Just hold there, when you use the word we again, that is you and who else? Was it any of your co-applicants? MR MASUKU The co-accused were present when we left for Mr Masetla's place. All four of them were present. MR RICHARD Were all of you there to hear what was said when they came back to the classroom, that you should go and fetch Philemon Masetla? MR MASUKU That is correct. MR RICHARD Thank you, now carry on. You left the school, you and your co-applicants went with who? MR MASUKU We left with Mr Kayne Mokoena, Mr Mokoena and Mr Moses Masetla. When we arrived at the house of the late Mr Masetla, comrade Joseph Pirie told me that I should go and knock because they are somehow related. I knocked and after two minutes, a person responded from inside the house. It was Mr Philemon Masetla. He asked who I was and what I wanted. I told him that I was Jeffrey and I was looking for transport to take us to Moyideng. He complained about the petrol and I told him that I have with me a 20 litre full of petrol. I lied, so that he could get out of the house, and indeed he went out of the house. He went out of the house and he greeted us, he went to the car and he opened the bonnet. Johannes Ntshabeleng got hold of him, that is grabbed him. He was assisted by comrade Boetie Mashaba and Mr Hendrik Mokoena and Mokoena and Mishak Mahadima. MR RICHARD What happened to him, was he put anywhere, was he taken anywhere? MR MASUKU He shouted, he said "stop comrades, let me tell you the truth", and his wife got out of the house to see what was going on. As she looked very frightened, she didn't know what was happening because her husband was surrounded by many of the comrades. I was not far from his wife. The deceased was then taken to the school, accompanied by Mr Moses Masetla. His wife was chased back by Ms Lucky Mamashako and Ms Tandi Mogadisa. He was not assaulted, he was not insulted, because we were given instructions by the leaders of the community not to question him at all, or even to touch him. When we arrived at the school, he was taken to a classroom where the leaders were seated. Comrade (indistinct) and the group that went with to fetch Mr Philemon Masetla also got into the room. I was standing close to the window, I was not inside, but I could hear what was being discussed inside. Mr Kayne Mokoena asked Mr Philemon Masetla whether he knew anything about the death of comrade Mokoena and whether it was true that he is responsible. He answered in the positive, he asked for forgiveness. That question was asked again by Mr Moses Masetla and he is also one of the Masetla family, he is the uncle. He responded to his question positively and said yes, he is responsible. Mr Frans Magutla and Mr Joseph Pirie, that is Mr Philemon Masetla, should be executed through the necklace style and nobody responded to that. Mr Magutla went outside and he asked two of his sons Tabu Magutla and Patrick to bring petrol and a tyre. After half an hour to an hour, Mr Mokoena went outside the classroom with Philemon Masetla and other marshals, including Mr Moses Masetla. Mr Philemon Masetla was then taken, his hands were tied behind his back and he was taken to a mountain. I was present among the group that took him to the mountain. On the mountain he was tied to a tree, by comrade Johannes Ntshabeleng and Mr Hendrik Mokoena. They forced him to drink petrol and they hung a tyre on his neck, which was poured with petrol. Comrade Ntshabeleng tried to light the match stick, but he could not succeed. Mr Mokoena tried the second time, and the fire did not light. Comrade Mayela lit the third one and that stick of matches managed to light the fire. As he was burning and shouting, we all left. Mr Mokoena did not, he just stood and next to him the tyre had fallen. He took it back to the neck as he was screaming. I left with Morris Kgoete and Walter Mamayela. I asked them to go and spend the night with me at home, because I was very scared. I was scared after I saw what happened. Then we spent the night at home. MR RICHARD Tell me, what was Morris Kgoete doing when the petrol was being put into the tyre and the matches were being lit? MR MASUKU Morris Kgoete was not close to me, I did not see him at this time. I saw him as we ascended the mountain. MR RICHARD Did he assist in tying up the deceased or pouring the petrol or lighting the petrol? MR MASUKU He did not assist. He was not close to them, he was in the group of the people that were on the mountain. MR RICHARD And then, we have heard what you did, what did Jacob Manasoe do? What was he doing? MR MASUKU From the school, Jacob was among the leaders. I did not see what he did. I cannot give any evidence of what I saw him doing up to the mountain. I did not even see him doing anything on the mountain. I only saw him at the meeting when Mr Masetla was being charged. MR RICHARD Did he come to the mountain with you? MR MASUKU Yes. MR RICHARD Mr Ntshabeleng, we know that you have just testified that he lit the match? MR MASUKU That is correct, but the matches did not go on. MR RICHARD When you learnt that the deceased had hired somebody to kill one of your ANC comrades, that is Mr Mokoena, how did you see him? Did you see him as an ally or an enemy? MR MASUKU That is correct, I saw Mr Masetla as an enemy. MR RICHARD An enemy of what? MR MASUKU An enemy of our organisation, because the taxi owners that were being killed, were members of the ANC, and when he was implicated in the taxi violence, I saw him as an enemy who was intending to bring the name of the organisation into disrepute. ADV SANDI Sorry Mr Richard, if I can just ask the witness to explain something. You say the taxi owners who were being killed, were being members of the ANC. Now those who were killing them, were they members of any political organisation? MR MASUKU I mentioned earlier on that - our suspicions that these people were working with the previous government is because the people who were being killed, were members of the ANC. We did not have evidence though, which party they belonged to. There were structures around our area, structures like Mbokoto and their activities confirmed our suspicions that they were fighting members of the ANC. We did not have taxi violence in our area, and there were no new taxi's being introduced into the industry. But after the killing of certain members of the ANC, we realised that they were being targeted. ADV SANDI Were there people who were members of Mbokoto who also owned taxi's? MR MASUKU In our district, no, there were not, but they were present in Tafelkop and in Denelton. Mr Mokoena and Mr Masetla, their taxi's were travelling from Tafelkop to Mooihoek, and the other three members who were killed, their taxi's were operating in the same manner, from Tafelkop to Moshaltwani, and the areas around. ADV SANDI Thank you. ADV BOSMAN Mr Masuku, before you proceed, can you give us a better indication of where this Tafelkop and Mooihoek area is? Was it near one of the former homelands, was it near Pretoria, was it further north? Just give us a better indication. MR MASUKU They were in the northern province, they were falling under the former Lebowa government, from Mooihoek to Tafelkop, it could be plus minus 30 kilometres. ADV BOSMAN Was it part of Lebowa? MR MASUKU That is correct, it is part of Lebowa, Tafelkop and Semanyani were under the Lebowa government. ADV BOSMAN Thank you. MR RICHARD Just to help the Committee, how far away from Groblersdal is Tafelkop? MR MASUKU It is plus minus 20 kilometres. It could be 50 kilometres from Mooihoek to Groblersdal. MR RICHARD Would you describe the area around Mooihoek and Tafelkop as rural, traditional areas? MR MASUKU It is a rural area, it is not an urban area. MR RICHARD It is also an area where you still have your (indistinct) and your indunas and your tribal structures, is that not correct? MR MASUKU That is correct. MR RICHARD And by 1990, the chieftains and the indunas and the councillors, which party did they in the main support, by 1990? MR MASUKU In our area the Headmen were supporting the ANC. There were other organisations though, the PAC which also had the supporters, but in our area the Headmen were the supporters of the ANC, many of them indeed. MR RICHARD Now, how did you think the ANC would benefit by the killing of Mr Philemon Masetla? MR MASUKU The killing of Mr Masetla was to send a message to those who were killing the members of the ANC that their actions would not be tolerated, and they were not accepted at all. It was to protect the members and the supporters of the ANC. It was the duty of the SDU. MR RICHARD Now in your application, you and your co-applicants used the word "revenge" and "avenge", the death of your comrade. What did you mean by that when you said "revenge" and "avenge", did you mean that you wanted to get some personal satisfaction from it, by killing the person you saw as the perpetrator of Mr Makena's death? MR MASUKU The two words were wrongly applied here. What we wanted to say was that everyone who kills or hurts the members of the ANC, will be brought before the ANC. The message was also sent to these people who were intending or who had intentions of weakening the ANC. The message was that they would be hurt if they continue with the criminal activities in the township or attacking the members of the ANC. MR RICHARD If one of your comrades in the SDU were killed, what did you in the SDUs think your obligations were in the situation? MR MASUKU Our duty would be to investigate as to who was responsible for the killing of the member of the ANC and the supporters of the ANC. Such people were supposed to be hunted down, be found and be brought before the community, and the community would in turn take a decision as to what to do with those people. The function of the SDU was not to prosecute or charge the criminals. Our duty was to apprehend them, present them before the leaders of the ANC. Our communities were still functioning under the Headmen's laws, so we were not entitled at all to decide what to do with a captured perpetrator of violence. MR RICHARD Across the room you see the widow of the deceased. Do you have anything to say to the victims of the killing that you were party to? MR MASUKU I want to, I am grateful for the opportunity that the TRC offered me. I want to tell the wife to the deceased and the children, including Mr Masetla, that what happened, we had nothing personal about this family. I respected the late Mr Masetla, I experienced no problem against him. If ever there is a room in their hearts, I am asking, and I repeat, I am asking them for forgiveness for what happened. I wish there was a way that the government would follow to see to it that his children are cared for, from the bottom of my heart I apologise to them. If it is possible, if they find it in their hearts, let them please forgive me. I am not proud of what I did. The role that I played, does not make me proud and I am asking for forgiveness. MR RICHARD No further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR RICHARD CHAIRPERSON Thank you Mr Richard. Ms Vilakazi, any questions? CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS VILAKAZI Thank you Mr Chairperson, can I ask for just a few minutes to verify a few things? Thank you. Thank you Chairperson. Mr Masuku, in your evidence-in-chief right towards the end you mentioned that it was not your duty to execute perpetrators. Did I hear you correctly? MR MASUKU That is correct. MS VILAKAZI So yours was to bring the perpetrators before people who had the power to take whatever action, is that correct? MR MASUKU That is correct. MS VILAKAZI Now, on the meeting that was held on the 12th of August, the meeting that you referred to, was the Headman, (indistinct) present? MR MASUKU No. He was not present. MS VILAKAZI And then, on the 15th, the day on which the deceased was killed, was Headman (indistinct) present? MR MASUKU He was not present. MS VILAKAZI I want to refer you to your application which is on page 29, page 29 of the bundle. I will ask your legal representative to show it to you. Under paragraph 10(b) number 4, you said that the act was condoned by the entire SDUs together with the local Chiefs of the community, can you see that? MR MASUKU Yes. MS VILAKAZI How many Chiefs do you have in your community? Or let me say how many Chiefs did you have at that particular time? MR MASUKU It was only Mr Magube (indistinct) and he was operating under a Chief M.M. Matlala. MS VILAKAZI Was Chief M.M. Matlala present in the meeting of the 12th of August? MR MASUKU He was not present. MS VILAKAZI Was he present in the meeting of the 15th? MR MASUKU M.M. Matlala did not attend both the meetings, on the 12th and on the 15th. MS VILAKAZI Why do you say that the killing was condoned by the local Chiefs? MR MASUKU After our arrest, regarding Mr Masetla's killing, I met with Joseph Pirie when we left, when we went out and I explained to him our situation and he told me that he got the message that M.M. Matlala got a report or he heard what happened, and he was deeply disturbed that we were arrested. That is the Youth of the village. I asked him what was his reaction to that, he told me that he received the message that Mr Masetla was one of those people who killed comrade Mokoena. He did not see us guilty in that regard. If the Chief or the Headman is against that, what they would do is they would call a meeting of the Chiefs and the perpetrators would be prosecuted for what they did, but that is why I am saying the act was condoned by the entire SDUs together with the local Chiefs. Their quietness, their not asking us what happened, and the fact that they did not call us to a Chief's Kraal for a meeting, was an indication that they accepted what we did. MS VILAKAZI If I understand you well, you did not have instructions from either Chief M.M. Matlala or Headman Magube to carry out the killing of the deceased, is that correct? MR MASUKU That is correct. MS VILAKAZI You only interpreted his action, the action of the Chief, M.M. Matlala by not summoning you to appear as condonation of what you did, is that correct? MR MASUKU Not their actions, I mentioned that after I was released on bail I met Pirie and I asked him what was happening regarding this whole matter. He told me that they had taken a message to the Chief about what happened in the village. He told me that the Chief said he didn't have a problem with this. Before Pirie could go to him, the Chief had already heard that Mr Masetla was one of the suspected people who took part in the killing of Mr Mokoena and the Chief knew about Mr Makena's death. MS VILAKAZI Do you know what the attitude of Headman Magube was, about the killing of Mr Masetla? MR MASUKU I do not know. MS VILAKAZI If you were not given instructions by either the Chief or the Headman to kill the deceased, who gave you instructions to kill the deceased? MR MASUKU Mr Frans Magutla. Mr Frans Magutla and Mr Kayne Mokoena on the 12th, they chaired a meeting in the place of an induna, because the induna was not present. On the 15th Mr Frans Magutla and Joseph Pirie took a decision that Mr Philemon Masetla should be killed. MS VILAKAZI In your evidence you made mention of the fact that on the 15th, while at the school, you went outside the classroom and you saw Kayne Mokoena, Frans Magutla and Moses Masetla. Did I hear you correctly? MR MASUKU Yes. MS VILAKAZI Where were these three people? MR MASUKU They were in another classroom, there were two classrooms. The three of them came and they got inside. They went into the classroom opposite to the classroom where we were. MS VILAKAZI I don't understand you clearly. Didn't you say that you went outside and you saw them outside the classroom that the group of people were in? MR MASUKU The Youth was inside a classroom where a meeting was held, when the meeting started before we left for Tafelkop. Mr Magutla, Mr Kayne Mokoena and Mr Moses Masetla and they were fetched before leaving for Tafelkop. I went outside because it was hot. When I stepped outside, I saw them outside. There were two classrooms opposite each other and they were towards the door of an empty classroom. That is where they held another meeting. It was the community leaders and the senior members of the ANC. At that time they were leaders. MS VILAKAZI Now, at that time when you saw the three men that you referred to, was it before or after the deceased was fetched from his home? MR MASUKU That was before the deceased was fetched. MS VILAKAZI Moses Masetla that you are referring to, is the gentleman next to me, not so? MR MASUKU That is correct. MS VILAKAZI What happened to him when the deceased was fetched from his home, do you know? MR MASUKU He left with the group. MS VILAKAZI My instructions are that Mr Moses Masetla was collected from his home and at that time, Mr Kayne Mokoena had been collected from his home as well and that after he, Mr Moses Masetla, was collected from his home, the mob proceeded straight to the house of the deceased? MR MASUKU He is telling the truth. They fetched him and brought him to the school. The groups were at school. MS VILAKAZI My instructions are that Moses Masetla, and that is what he is going to testify, that he was collected from his home and taken to the deceased's place, where the deceased was collected and it was only then that they proceeded to the school. What is your comment? MR MASUKU I do not agree with that. Before the deceased was fetched, I recall very well I saw Mr Masetla at the school with Kayne Mokoena. MS VILAKAZI In your evidence-in-chief you mentioned that you were informed by Mr Pirie, before we come to that, you mentioned that there are three people who were suspected of having killed Mr Mokoena, and you made mention of those suspects. Can you still remember that? MR MASUKU That is correct. MS VILAKAZI Those people, just a second Philip Makofani, Maredick and Samuel Motlala, is that correct? MR MASUKU It is Pomkomaradi and Samuel Motlala and Philip Makofani. MS VILAKAZI You went on in your evidence-in-chief and said that these three suspects informed Mr Pirie that they were sent by the deceased, Philemon Masetla to go and kill Mr Masetla. Can you recall that? MR MASUKU According to what I was told by Joseph Pirie, he said one of the three suspects, Philip Makofani informed him that Mr Philemon Masetla sent them to go and kill comrade Mokoena. That is what I heard from Joseph Pirie. That is what he told me. MS VILAKAZI When did Joseph Pirie tell you that? MR MASUKU Before the meeting of the 15th of August 1990, while we were still waiting for other comrades to arrive. Do you remember when did you make the application for amnesty? MR MASUKU I do not recall the date quite well. I think I said in 1994, that was my first, and the second one was on the 20th of December 1996, the one that I am having a copy of in my hand. I sent the first application in 1994, it was about the Groote Schuur Minutes and on the 20th of December 1996, I sent this one to the TRC. MS VILAKAZI I want you to look at the affidavit that starts at page 48 of the bundle, up to page 55. MR MASUKU Yes? MS VILAKAZI Is that your affidavit? MR MASUKU That is correct. MS VILAKAZI Who wrote the affidavit? MR MASUKU It is myself. MS VILAKAZI I want to put it to you that in your entire affidavit, you did not mention the fact that one of the suspects mentioned to Mr Pirie that they were sent by the deceased to kill Mr Mokoena. What is your comment? MR MASUKU I wrote the affidavit based on what I saw happening. I was very cautious of including what I was told, it was my word against his. What would happen if he said "no, I never told you that", so I was actually writing what I saw in this application. MS VILAKAZI But you did not go to a sangoma, did you? MR MASUKU I went with them, but I did not get inside. I did not talk to the sangoma, I remained outside. MS VILAKAZI So, you don't know what the sangoma said, not so? MR MASUKU That is correct. I do not know what the sangoma told. ADV SANDI Why did you not get inside and hear what the sangoma had to say? Were you not interested to know who had killed this person? MR MASUKU After not getting hold of Mr Ragetsu, whom I believe would tell us the truth, I did, I don't have a very strong belief in the sangomas, I trusted only in that Ragetsu. After they refused us to see him, I noticed that the training of this other sangoma was of a lower standard compared to that of Mr Ragetsu, and truly speaking, after we were refused entry into Mr Ragetsu's place, I lost interest and then I did not have interest in the whole matter. ADV SANDI But you still continued, you got involved in the killing of this person on the basis of what had been said by a sangoma? MR MASUKU I got involved in this matter because of the meeting that I attended on the 15th. I did not take any part, except the part of deciding to go to a sangoma. That was the last part I played in this whole issue. I never took any part any further. I only suggested that we should go to Ragetsu at Tafelkop and that is my involvement. That is my direct involvement, I had an input made on that meeting. That was the decision of the SDU. ADV SANDI Is that the meeting where you said Frans Magutla and Mokoena issued an order that Mr Masetla should be killed? MR MASUKU That is the meeting I am talking about. ADV SANDI Can you just explain to me, where did these two people get the authority to give such an order that someone should be killed? MR MASUKU They were given authority on the 12th by the members of the community. They ordered the SDUs of which I was part, they said if the killers of Mr Mokoena are found, they must be brought before the meeting. Joseph Pirie was the leader of the SDU. Frans Magutla was one of the Headman's assistance. Kayne Mokoena had been given authority to take a decision and Mr (indistinct) included, they were given the responsibility of taking a decision should the suspects be apprehended. ADV SANDI Thank you Ms Vilakazi. ADV BOSMAN May I just come in here, Mr Richard. Mr Masuku, did you believe that Mr Masetla had committed this crime? MR MASUKU I did not believe. ADV BOSMAN Did you say so to the community? MR MASUKU I did not tell the members of the community, but I did not believe. ADV BOSMAN Yes, on page 51 of your affidavit you say that you were shocked and out of words. It is at the last line of page 51. You say that you were "shocked and out of words when they said it was Mr Masetla". Why did you just keep quiet about it? Why didn't you express your opinion, because you participated in going to the community with this man, for him to be tried? MR MASUKU I grew up in Tafelkop and the comrades, that is the SDUs, had the responsibility of disciplining anybody who was acting against the ANC or anybody for that matter, who was involved in criminal activities. I was afraid that if I am the only person against everybody who was agreeing on one thing, I would be in trouble. I was still young, I did not have powers so to say. I got shocked really and I kept quiet. What made me not to believe Mr Masetla was a killer, he was a respected man. I do not recall seeing or viewing him as a traitor. His family also, he was a family man, let me put it shortly in that way, he was a family man and I respected him. I respected him for what he was. I got shocked when I heard that he is responsible for Mr Makena's death. Even, you could ask me the same question today, you could ask me the same question today, "do you believe that he was responsible", and I would tell them "no, I do not believe that he was responsible". ADV BOSMAN Do you have any reason to believe that he belonged to another political party? MR MASUKU I do not have any reason to believe that. ADV BOSMAN Thank you. CHAIRPERSON What was your response after Mr Masetla confessed? MR MASUKU When he agreed for the first time that he was responsible, I said to myself "maybe I did not hear quite well". With the little knowledge that I have, I know that if a person finds himself in danger, a person is bound to say anything, trying to protect himself. That was afterwards. I just concluded, he said that, he confessed that and he asked for forgiveness, trying to calm down the comrades. That is what I thought. I thought maybe he, if he confessed, they would stop threatening him. I understood that he said yes and he was asking for forgiveness because everybody around there, was against him. That is my personal opinion. CHAIRPERSON Was there a member of his family that asked him for a second time whether he was responsible for this killing? MR MASUKU Mr Moses Masetla was present. CHAIRPERSON Is it a relative of the deceased? MR MASUKU That is correct. CHAIRPERSON And did he ask him for the second time after he confessed, whether that was truly the case? MR MASUKU That is what I heard, yes. CHAIRPERSON And then did he confess again or what did he do? After he was asked, did he confess again or what was his ... MR MASUKU After he confessed again, Mr Magutla and Mr Joseph Pirie took a decision that he should be killed, he should be necklaced. CHAIRPERSON Yes. Ms Vilakazi? MS VILAKAZI So from what you are saying, Mr Masuku, the confession by Mr Masetla came as a shock to you, not so? MR MASUKU That is correct. MS VILAKAZI And before his confession you had no reason to believe that he is the one who could have killed, or had anything to do with the death of Mr Mokoena, not so? MR MASUKU MS VILAKAZI Yes, but even after the sangoma had said that Mr Masetla is the one who killed Mr Mokoena, you still did not believe that, not so, until such time that he made a confession? MR MASUKU That is correct. I did not hear the sangoma talking. Especially the fact that Joseph Pirie came to the meeting and told the meeting that Mr Masetla has been pointed out as the killer of Mr Mokoena. I was scared to be against him this time again. MS VILAKAZI Yes, but then you tricked Mr Philemon Masetla, the deceased, out of his house and yet you believed, you had no reason to suspect him? Why was that so? MR MASUKU I wanted to know the truth. His coming out of the house, that is my line, so that he could get out of the house. I thought they were going to question him and if he denies that, to let him go. I thought he would be given a chance to tell his side of the story, but after realising that was not a possibility, I felt guilty. Even today, I still feel guilty for having assisted in the capture of Mr Masetla. CHAIRPERSON Have you decided on your own to play this trick on the deceased? MR MASUKU Joseph Pirie said to me he cannot knock at his door, because he was a relative of his, and he said I should knock instead. Joseph Pirie was two or three metres away from me when I was knocking, he was not far from me. CHAIRPERSON If Pirie didn't tell you to do that, would you have done that out of your own or not? MR MASUKU No, I would have never done that. CHAIRPERSON Yes, Mr Vilakazi? MS VILAKAZI Did Mr Pirie made you to trick the deceased out of his house? MR MASUKU I would say he asked, he told me to knock and ask him to get out and say we were looking for transport, that is what he told me. Mr Masetla knew me to be an involved member of the SDU. Even on the day of taking a decision to look for the killers, he was present at that meeting. MS VILAKAZI I am putting it to you that Mr Moses Masetla, your evidence that Mr Moses Masetla asked the deceased to repeat his confession and he repeated the confession, is going to be denied by Mr Moses Masetla. MR MASUKU I do not agree with that. The co-applicants can testify to that effect. They were with Mr Masetla, Morris Kgoete and Jacob Manasoe, they were with Mr Masetla inside. I was outside at the door, I could hear what they were saying. He was present, even at the time of the questioning of the deceased. He was the person to ask the deceased the last question, "is it true what they say you did". MS VILAKAZI Mr Moses Masetla will also testify that the deceased was never given an opportunity to say anything. What is your comment? MR MASUKU I don't understand. He was asked a question and he responded to the question. What opportunity was he not afforded? The opportunity to say yes, he committed the act or no, he did not? MS VILAKAZI Mr Moses Masetla is also going to testify that there was no political, or taxi violence around the area of Mooihoek at the time of the incident. MR MASUKU I do not agree with him. There are three taxi owners who were killed in three different times, not only in the Mooihoek district. One of them resided at Moshalatwani, the other one was from Mampogo, the other one was from Tafelkop. They were using one route, the same route as Mr Mokoena and Mr Masetla. MS VILAKAZI Mr Masetla will also testify that there were no taxi's which operated within the Mooihoek area? MR MASUKU That is correct, there were no taxi's within the Mooihoek, they would take passengers from Tsimanyane to town. The taxi's that were going to Tafelkop from Mooihoek were Mr Makena's taxi and Mr Philemon Masetla's taxi. MS VILAKAZI That will be all, Chairperson, thank you. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS VILAKAZI CHAIRPERSON Thank you Ma'am. Ms Mtanga, any questions? CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS MTANGA Yes Chairperson, thank you. Mr Masuku, on page 52 of the bundle from the second line of your affidavit, you stated that "... on our arrival comrade (that is when you arrived at Mr Masetla's house) comrade Joseph Pirry told me that he could not wake Mr Masetla up because they were related to each other and they had some difference." MR MASUKU Yes, that is correct. MS MTANGA Do you know what these differences were between Mr Masetla, the late Mr Masetla and Mr Pirie? MR MASUKU He did not explain that to me. MS MTANGA You also mentioned that the reason for you to testify that there was a taxi violence, it was because there were three taxi owners who died prior to Mr Makena's death, am I correct? MR MASUKU That is correct. MS MTANGA And all these three taxi owners died in different areas, in three different areas, am I correct? MR MASUKU That is correct. MS MTANGA Can you give me the areas where these people came from, the taxi owners who died, where did they come from? You mentioned Tafelkop as one. MR MASUKU The other one was killed in Tafelkop, the other one in Moshalatwani and then the other one at Mampogo, excluding Mr Makena's death. MS MTANGA How far is Mampogo from your area, Mooihoek? How far is it? MR MASUKU It is less than 15 kilometres. MS MTANGA And the second place, I cannot pronounce the word, Moshalatwani? How far is that from Mooihoek? MR MASUKU Less than 10 kilometres from Mooihoek. MS MTANGA Did you have a group of SDUs operating in these two areas? Did you have members of the SDUs in Moshalatwani, and Mampogo? MR MASUKU In Tafelkop there was the SDU structures which operated at Tafelkop, and in Moshalatwani, Mampogo and Mooihoek, the same people were operating in those areas, excluding ourselves. We were operating at Moshalatwani and Mooihoek and Mampogo. MS MTANGA How did you know the political affiliations of the deceased taxi owners, the three people, how did you know what their political affiliations were, the three people? MR MASUKU I received information from Joseph Pirie. He informed us at the meeting. The incident of Mr Mokoena was not the first one, it was the fourth one and they had been reported to the police. MS MTANGA What did he say their political affiliation was, the three taxi owners who had died? MR MASUKU Yes, he mentioned the political affiliations of those taxi owners who were affected, that they were members of the ANC. MS MTANGA What was the position held by Mr Joseph Pirie in the ANC Youth League and the SDU, what was his position? MR MASUKU At the time, he was the Commander of the SDU in Mooihoek. And then again he was a member of the Executive in our district and (indistinct) was the Secretary. Joseph Pirie was an Executive member of the district. MS MTANGA How well did you know Mr Philemon Masetla? MR MASUKU What I know of Philemon Masetla was that he was a respected person. I never heard anything wrong about him, that was the first one which I heard about him. He was a middle class person and his family was living well. Those are the signs which made me to respect him. MS MTANGA Did you know anything about his political activities of affiliation? MR MASUKU No Chairperson, I did not know anything. MS MTANGA You earlier on testified that you had no reason to believe that he belonged to any political party, am I correct to say that, it was your belief at the time that he, you didn't believe that he belonged to any political party, am I correct? MR MASUKU I stated that I had no reason to believe that he has any relationship with any political party, but what I know is that he was not a member of the ANC because I had information, especially, Tsimanyane and Moshalatwani and Mampogo. I knew that he was not a member of the ANC. MS MTANGA Mr Masuku, I would like to understand from you, do you understand that for you to qualify for amnesty, the offence that you are applying for, must be directed at a political opponent? Are you aware of that? MR MASUKU Are you saying for me to get amnesty, it is that my actions should be directed to a person who is my political enemy or who is affiliated to a political party which is against the beliefs of the political party that I belong to? Yes, I do. But what I do not understand is that I do not have the information about the organisation, the political organisation that Mr Masetla belonged to, or which he worked under. That does not mean that he was not affiliated to a political party. MS MTANGA At the meeting that you had on the 15th of August, was the political affiliation of Mr Masetla not discussed by your comrades? MR MASUKU It was a meeting which was called by the community, it was not a meeting under the auspices of a political party, for example the ANC. They were calling each and every member of the community to attend the meeting. MS MTANGA If you had no reason to believe that Mr Masetla belonged to a political organisation that you could regard as an opponent to your organisation, the ANC, and if you also had no knowledge of him being involved in any political activities of any other political party, how do you regard your offences as political, because Mr Masetla in this circumstances, could not have been a political opponent? MR MASUKU The context of our offence and particularly in the duration of 1990 uprisings, the killing of a comrade was the responsibility of the Youth, to make sure that the perpetrators are arrested and brought to the community. Therefore our act was in the interest of the ANC, as we were ordered by our Commander, again who was the supporter and member and a leader of the ANC. We did not act on our own, we were acting in the interest of the organisation in terms of the order that we received. Again I had no personal grudge against Mr Masetla and his family. The killing of Mr Masetla was not motivated by personal gain as an individual. That is why I am saying my act was politically motivated, I acted in the interest of the ANC as I was ordered by my Commander and the senior members of the ANC, who were at that moment the authority over me. MS MTANGA Mr Masuku, you were a member of the ANC Youth League and also a member of the SDU. Am I correct to say that even if, according to the way you operated in your area, under the ANC Youth League and SDUs, even if Mr Mokoena was killed by thugs, you would have still gone after those thugs and killed them, because they had killed a comrade, is that what you are telling the Committee? MR MASUKU The decision to kill Mr Mokoena was not my responsibility. What was to happen to Mr Mokoena, I did not play a part. If it was not Mr Mokoena but pure criminals, I do not know what would happen to those people. It was Frans Magutla and Mokoena and Joseph Pirie, those are the ones who carried the responsibility to issue an instruction. What I was ordered to do was to trace people who were responsible for the death of Mr Mokoena and then for them to be brought before the meeting. That was the end all of my responsibility in this incident. What was to happen thereafter, was the responsibility of those who were senior to me. MS MTANGA Mr Masuku, the meeting that you attended on the 12th of August, that is the first meeting, how many people attended that meeting? MR MASUKU There were more than 50, and those were community members, old people and members of the Youth. MS MTANGA Are you saying there were others and the Youth at the meeting? MR MASUKU That is correct. MS MTANGA What was your position in the ANC Youth League and the SDU at that time? MR MASUKU I was an ordinary member, I did not have any Executive position. I was only acting under orders then. MS MTANGA You know, Mr Masuku, I find it quite strange that in 1990 you were probably about 17 years old, and you were an ordinary member of the ANC Youth League and the SDUs, but you managed to convince a meeting of adults who were actually senior than you in the organisation, to consult a sangoma before they could make a decision as to who killed Mr Mokoena. How come you had that kind of an influence over the people? MR MASUKU On that day, during the 15th, anyone was allowed to speak his or her mind. For the fact that I questioned what was stated by Mr Pirie, the meeting had no direction, anyone could talk freely and then we had no progress. What was stated is that, Joseph Pirie stated that Mr Masetla is the one suspected to be the one responsible for the killing of Mr Mokoena. He received that information from one of the suspects, that is Mr Philip Makofani. After seeing that no one questioned the reliability of what Mr Pirie said, I requested that a sangoma be consulted and no one questioned what I said. Everybody supported what I said. There is no reason which I would give that I had influence to the meeting. I was just an ordinary member. CHAIRPERSON You mean if anybody had made that suggestion, it would in all likelihood have been in favour with the meeting? MR MASUKU That is correct. CHAIRPERSON Yes, Ms Mtanga? MS MTANGA Roughly how old was Joseph Pirie at the time of this incident? MR MASUKU I am not sure Chairperson, but he was an adult. MS MTANGA Would you say he was older than 25 at that time? MR MASUKU Yes, I believe he was about 25. MS MTANGA And Mokoena? MR MASUKU He was an adult, he was approximately about 40 years. MS MTANGA And Mr Magutla? MR MASUKU He was the same age with Mr Mokoena. MS MTANGA Mr Masuku, I am asking you the ages of these people because you seem to downplay the role that you played in this incident and secondly you seem to, you seem to rely a lot of what you said was authority at that time, whereas on the facts of this case, it appears to me that you were quite at the forefront of the group that led people to Mr Masetla's house. How many people went to Mr Masetla's house when you went to fetch him? MR MASUKU That is correct, I was one of them. MS MTANGA How many people were there to fetch Mr Masetla? MR MASUKU I am not sure of the number of the people, but I think we were about, we were over 30. MS MTANGA And then out of 30 people, you were the one who went into the house to get Mr Masetla out of his house? MR MASUKU As I have already stated that Joseph Pirie is the one who requested of me, I was together with Joseph Pirie whilst questioning about the response of the sangoma. I was trying to find out as to whether, what he stated to the people, is based from what he learnt from the suspects, or what he learnt from the sangoma. Because he was in front, I was with him. If there was someone next to him then, he would have asked that person to knock at the door, and request Mr Masetla to get out of the house. ADV SANDI Sorry can I just ask a question here? You have stated quite categorically that this meeting of the 12th of August 1990 was a meeting of the community and not an ANC meeting. Are you aware of any reason why the ANC would not call a meeting of its own to discuss the problem if they were concerned about ANC affiliated taxi owners getting killed? Why would the ANC not call a meeting to discuss the problem? MR MASUKU Joseph Pirie came to the meeting to represent the ANC. The meeting was called for the community, by the community, but the death of Mr Mokoena was the lost of the entire community, not for the ANC alone. Therefore it was the responsibility of the induna and his assistants to report to the community about what happened. Particularly the circumstances surrounding his death. It was therefore necessarily the responsibility of the ANC to call the meeting. As the induna was the leader of the community, therefore it was his responsibility to call that meeting. Members of the ANC came as part of the community to that particular meeting. ADV SANDI I thought you said that the induna and the Chief did not hold any portfolio in the ANC, they were just supporters or members of the ANC with no portfolio? MR MASUKU I don't have reasons for that. I would not testify to that, that they were just ordinary supporters of the ANC. ADV SANDI I understood you to say that the induna and the Chief were not holding any portfolios in the ANC structures, they were members? MR MASUKU I did not say that Chairperson. ADV SANDI What did you say? Did they hold portfolios in the ANC? MR MASUKU Chief M.M. Matlala was the member of Parliament then in Lebowa. The Executive members of the ANC whom I knew, he was not one of them. That is why I said I did not have information that they were supporters of the ANC. ADV SANDI What you have just said makes it even more interesting now. You say M.M. Matlala was a member of Parliament in Lebowa homeland. Wasn't the ANC opposed to those homelands? Wasn't the ANC opposed to those homelands? MR MASUKU Yes, any government which was an appendage of the nationalist government, central government and again Lebowa government was an appendage to the national government, therefore they were against it. ADV SANDI Surely he was not representing the ANC there, as a member of Parliament in that homeland structure? MR MASUKU Yes, he represented the community. ADV SANDI Did he hold any portfolio in the ANC as an organisation, such as a General Secretary, Treasurer, Chairperson or whatever? MR MASUKU No Chairperson. ADV SANDI Who was the Chairperson of the ANC in that area at that time? MR MASUKU Lot Magadi was the Chairperson of the ANC in the district. The Secretary was Mokolo Malabani. ADV SANDI But were those people whom you have just mentioned, were they involved in these meetings which subsequently led to the killing of Mr Masetla, they were not involved as I understand you? MR MASUKU Yes, they were present. ADV SANDI They were present on the 12th of August? MR MASUKU That is correct. ADV SANDI Did they also go along with the decision that Mr Masetla should be killed? MR MASUKU I did not see them personally stating their support, I would not say somebody agreed to that, but they were present, and then again they were part of the people who questioned Mr Masetla. ADV SANDI Were you able to establish in the end as to who was responsible for the killing of these taxi owners? You said three of them had been killed before Mr Mokoena was killed? Were you able to find out who was responsible for this? MR MASUKU We were not able to find out. ADV SANDI Thank you. CHAIRPERSON Have you got any other questions? MS MTANGA No questions, Chairperson. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS MTANGA CHAIRPERSON The panel then, I suppose Adv Sandi is done. Adv Bosman? ADV BOSMAN I understood you to say that Mr Pirie represented the ANC at these meetings? MR MASUKU Can you repeat the question again please. ADV BOSMAN I understood you to say that Mr Pirie was the representative of the ANC at the meetings? Is that correct? MR MASUKU The meeting of the 12th, Mr Joseph Pirie represented the ANC as the Commander of the ANC, of the SDU. ADV BOSMAN The Chairman of the ANC in the region and the Secretary, at which meeting were they? MR MASUKU They attended the meeting of the 15th. That is where I saw them. ADV BOSMAN And then Mr Mokoena, what was his position in the ANC? MR MASUKU The late comrade Mokoena? ADV BOSMAN Yes? MR MASUKU He was one of the Executive members who served together with Mr Magadi and Mr Malabani. ADV BOSMAN Thank you. ADV SANDI Sorry, I didn't exhaust my questions for the witness. Who organised your legal representation in court? Were you assisted in any way? MR MASUKU Yes, I was assisted. I was assisted by Mokono Malopani who organised a lawyer from Pietersburg. ADV SANDI When you were out on bail ... MR MASUKU That day the five of us were represented by that lawyer who was organised by Mr Malopani, from Pietersburg. That legal Counsel was organised by Magadi and Malopani from Pietersburg. ADV SANDI Sorry, just explain to me, who was Mr Malopani? MR MASUKU He is a District ANC Secretary. ADV SANDI And when you had to pay bail, just tell us how much was it and who paid for your bail, so that you could be out? MR MASUKU My bail was R100-00. It was paid by my mother. ADV SANDI Thank you. Thank you Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. You said that you were acting on orders of your Commander, is that Pirie or who are you referring to? MR MASUKU That is correct. CHAIRPERSON Now, from what you perceived, how did Pirie regard the deceased? Did he regard him as a supporter of the ANC or how did he regard the deceased? MR MASUKU Do you mean Mokoena or Joseph Pirie? CHAIRPERSON MR MASUKU I do not have knowledge about his perception about the political affiliation of Mr Masetla. CHAIRPERSON From his conduct in this whole incident, did you get any impressions about his view of the deceased, whether Pirie regarded the deceased as a friend of the ANC or a supporter of the ANC or not? MR MASUKU CHAIRPERSON Yes, Mr Richard, re-examination? RE-EXAMINATION BY MR RICHARD Very few questions. Mr Masuku, would you please look at page 54 of the bundle, it is a long list of names. How many people on that list, are not, were not members of the ANC at the time in 1990? In other words who were not an ANC member on that list? MR MASUKU From this list, the people that I would say were not members of the ANC, is Mr Mukulo and his brother, but others were card carrying members of the ANC. I am not sure how many of them, but Mr Mukulo, the two Mukulo's, (indistinct) father and (indistinct) father, I am not sure whether they were members or just supporters of the ANC. MR RICHARD Were any of the people at that meeting, hostile and against the ANC? MR MASUKU No. Everybody who was at the meeting, supported the ANC. The two Mukulo's joined in because they were going to provide transport to Tafelkop. The people who were at the meeting, all came voluntarily, they were not forced in any way. They came voluntarily after it was announced that there would be a meeting at the school. MR RICHARD How old were you as at the 15th of August 1990? MR MASUKU I was 17 years old. MR RICHARD And how old were your co-applicants? MR MASUKU Myself and (indistinct) were 17 years old, that is Ndebele Ntshabeleng. We were of the same age. Jacob Manasoe was three years older than myself and Morris Kgoete, they were both three years older than us. MR RICHARD Now, did any of these people on this list, oppose the decision to necklace the deceased? MR MASUKU That is correct. Mr Frans Magutla and Joseph Pirie. MR RICHARD Listen to my question, did any of them say the deceased should not be necklaced? MR MASUKU No one on this list, sir. Even at the meeting, nobody stood against that. MR RICHARD Now, am I not correct in saying that all these people in fact were senior to you and older than you? Senior to you in the ANC and older than you in years at the time? MR MASUKU You are quite correct. MR RICHARD No further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR RICHARD CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Mr Masuku, you are excused. WITNESS EXCUSED CHAIRPERSON Mr Richard? MR RICHARD It is that time of the day that normally the Department of Correctional Services start putting us under pressure to allow applicants to go back to prison. I don't know what the arrangements to day are? CHAIRPERSON Yes, I am not sure. I suppose they will object if they, or they will give an indication. Who is going to be your next applicant? MR RICHARD I was going to call Morris, the first applicant on the list. CHAIRPERSON Yes, because I was assuming that once Mr Masuku had laid the basis, that there would be little need to repeat everything that is already placed before us, so I assumed that the rest of the applicants should be fairly quickly.