amntrans AMNESTY HEARINGS 2000-10-03 JOHANNESBURG 2 MORRIS KGOETE AM0145/96 https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=54511&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/2000/201003jn.htm ON RESUMPTION MR RICHARD Let me call the first applicant on the list. CHAIRPERSON Let him come. Mr Kgoete. MR RICHARD The applicant has no objection to taking the oath. CHAIRPERSON Are you Morris Kgoete? MR KGOETE That is correct. MORRIS KGOETE (sworn states) CHAIRPERSON You may proceed, Mr Richard. EXAMINATION BY MR RICHARD Thank you Chairperson. Did you listen to the evidence of the first applicant, Mr Jeffrey Masuku? MR KGOETE That is correct. MR RICHARD You heard him describe that you were present at two meetings, one on the 12th of August 1990 and a second on the 15th of August 1990? MR KGOETE That is correct. MR RICHARD Did he correctly describe what you were doing at those meetings? MR KGOETE That is correct. MR RICHARD Now, when the deceased was necklaced on the mountain, would you be a bit more precise, what did you do there? MR KGOETE Mr Magutla sent two of his children, Tabo and Patrick to fetch a tyre and petrol. They brought those and we left for the mountain. Mr Hendrik Mokoena and Mr Johannes Ntshabeleng and they had, they took Mr Masetla and they tied him to a tree. Mr Mokoena put a tyre on him and Mr Ntshabeleng made him to drink petrol. Afterwards Ntshabeleng took a stick, trying to set him alight but he did not succeed. Ntshabeleng followed and he tried to light a stick. It did not, but the third one was successful, it was lit by Mr Mayela and he caught fire. As he started running, we all ran away, retreated back. Hendrik Mokoena did not, he stood, he remained behind. When we left the mountain, he was remaining at the top. MR RICHARD Now, did you assist in tying the deceased to the tree or putting petrol on the tyre or making him drink petrol? MR KGOETE No, I did not do anything. MR RICHARD Did you know the deceased? MR KGOETE Yes. MR RICHARD What political affiliation if any, did the deceased have? MR KGOETE I do not know. MR RICHARD Now, were you a member of the ANC in 1990? MR KGOETE Yes. MR RICHARD And in fact, when had you joined the ANC? MR KGOETE In 1990, in January, I joined the Youth League. MR RICHARD Now, at the meeting on the 15th of August 1990, did you feel that the ANC had instructed you what to do with the deceased? MR KGOETE Yes. MR RICHARD And for the rest, do you confirm, do you agree with what the first witness said about the incident and your role in it? MR KGOETE That is correct. MR RICHARD To be very short, I am going to only go into taxi violence. Was there taxi violence in the Tafelkop, Mooihoek area in 1990, that you can remember? MR KGOETE Yes, there were people who were killed. MR RICHARD To what political party were the people killed, belonging? Do you remember? MR KGOETE Those I know are four, including Mr Mokoena, and they were members of the ANC. MR RICHARD Now, what did the SDUs think of taxi violence, did they have a point of view about it? MR KGOETE May you repeat your question please? MR RICHARD Did the people in the SDUs have a point in view about taxi violence? MR KGOETE This troubled us a lot, especially when we realised that members of the ANC were killed. MR RICHARD Did you discuss it? MR KGOETE When we first met, it was after the funeral of Mr Mokoena and our leaders told us that there is yet another member of the ANC who was killed. Before that three had been killed already, Mr Mokoena was the fourth one. MR RICHARD Now, did you believe that the taxi violence was simply competition for routes or whether it was political? MR KGOETE According to me it was a political issue. As far as I was concerned, members of the ANC were being killed. It was the party that I belonged to. MR RICHARD If you have a look at page 14, whose handwriting is that? MR KGOETE It is mine. MR RICHARD Now, at paragraph 4 there you say "... the killing of an activist was beyond doubt that the taxi industry is part of the anti-liberation movement structures like Inkatha and Mbokoto." Why did you make that statement? MR KGOETE It was after we realised that members of the ANC who had taxi's, were killed. We thought that the government was supporting the taxi feud so that at the end, it would appear as if they were fighting for the routes. MR RICHARD At page 23 you say at paragraph 1 "... I want to state further adding to my amnesty application that before we took a decision, that the Youth at Mooihoek village to kill the victim, we informed our local Chief, Matlala and he gave permission to carry on with our mission." What decision did the Youth of Mooihoek take? MR KGOETE Among the Youth there were members, the leaders like Joseph Pirie and this is the kind of person whom we got instructions from most of the time. MR RICHARD In other words the Youth and the people who made the decisions, are the people who appear on page 54 if you have a look at the list? MR KGOETE That is correct. MR RICHARD You heard me ask the question, did any of those people listed on page 54, oppose the decision to kill the deceased? MR KGOETE Can you repeat your question please. MR RICHARD At the meeting on the evening of the 15th of August, did anyone disagree with the decision that the deceased should die? MR KGOETE Nobody. MR RICHARD Thank you, no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR RICHARD CHAIRPERSON Thank you Mr Richard. Was Mr Moses Masetla, sitting over there, was he at the meeting of the 15th? MR KGOETE Yes. CHAIRPERSON Did he participate in any way in the meeting? MR KGOETE Yes. CHAIRPERSON What did he do? MR KGOETE He asked the deceased whether it was true, he killed Mr Mokoena. CHAIRPERSON Was there any response? MR KGOETE Yes. CHAIRPERSON What was that? MR KGOETE He said yes, and I am asking for forgiveness. CHAIRPERSON Yes, thank you. Ms Vilakazi, questions? CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS VILAKAZI Thank you Mr Chairperson. Mr Kgoete, when you were asked what specifically did you do when Mr Masetla was taken to the mountain, you said you did not do anything. Did I understand you well, that you did not do anything? MR KGOETE That is correct. MS VILAKAZI If you did not do anything, why are you applying for amnesty? MR KGOETE When we were in class during the questioning of Mr Masetla, as to whether what he did, I asked him a question, is it true that he was present or he played a role during the death of Mr Mokoena. He agreed that he was present. MS VILAKAZI So your only role was to ask that question, is that correct? MR KGOETE That is correct Chairperson. MS VILAKAZI Besides asking him a question, you did not do anything else? MR KGOETE No Chairperson, I did not do anything. MS VILAKAZI You were asked, reference was made to page 23 on the affidavit that you made in which you stated that "the local Chief Matlala gave permission to carry on with our mission". You were asked what permission was he given, you did not mention what Mr Matlala, what permission he gave you, you only mentioned that leaders like Mr Pirie gave instructions and you followed those instructions? Was there any permission given to you by Chief Matlala? MR KGOETE We did not speak to Chief Matlala, we, the only person we used to meet was the Headman. We met at the Chief's kraal or at the induna's kraal when we held our meetings. MS VILAKAZI So Chief Matlala did not give you any permission, is that correct? MR KGOETE We did not meet him. MS VILAKAZI And when you met the local Headman at the kraal, did he give you permission to do anything? MR KGOETE What we were told is that they found the suspects and therefore they should be brought to the Headman's kraal. MS VILAKAZI My question stands. Did Headman Matlala give you permission to do anything? MR KGOETE He did not say we should kill because he was not present, only his assistants were present. MS VILAKAZI I want to refer you to page 2 of the bundle, paragraph 10(b)(iv) says "... the act was condoned by the entire SDUs together with the local Chiefs of the community." Which Chiefs were you referring to here? MR KGOETE Mr Mokoena was the assistant of the Headman. At that particular day he, he is the one who allowed us therefore to continue with this. MS VILAKAZI I refer you to page 4, the additional information. The ninth line from the bottom, the sentence starts with "... the Chief of the community approved the deeds", can you see that? MR KGOETE Yes, I do. MS VILAKAZI It says "... The Chief of the community approved the deeds of the comrades and ex-communicated the families of the deceased from the community." Why did you say that the Chief approved of the deeds, whereas on the other hand you said he never spoke to you? MR KGOETE In terms of our tradition, we don't meet the Chief, people are sent to him to convey any information that the community may have, and then they would go there and after agreeing with him, they would come back and report. MS VILAKAZI Now, do you have any reports that the Chief approved? MR KGOETE As his messengers came to report, they did not tell us that what we were doing, was wrong. MS VILAKAZI Who are the messengers that you are talking about? MR KGOETE If Samuel Mokoena was not present as the Headman, therefore he would be the one responsible. Mr Mokoena would be the one responsible to oversee what was happening, therefore he was present during this incident and at this meeting. MS VILAKAZI And when did Mr Mokoena tell you that the Chief approved? MR KGOETE Mr Mokoena did not inform us that the Chief did not, he did not tell us that we should continue or not continue during the meeting of the 12th, and then on the 15th, during that meeting, during the death of Mr Masetla, Mr Mokoena was present, and he did not say explicitly whether to continue or not to continue. MS VILAKAZI But you mentioned earlier that the messengers of the Chief conveyed the message that the Chief approved and when I asked you who were the messengers, you mentioned Mr Mokoena? MR KGOETE Yes. MS VILAKAZI Now, how can you say that you got the message that he approved, and at the same time you are saying Mr Mokoena did not say that the Chief either approved or did not approve? CHAIRPERSON He actually said Ms Vilakazi that the messengers didn't tell us that we were wrong. MR KGOETE They said that we may continue to search for the suspects. MS VILAKAZI So it is only an assumption that the Chief approved it, you don't know whether the Chief did approve or he did not approve, not so? MR KGOETE I agree that he gave us the permission. ADV SANDI Can I ask you to explain that, permission to do what? To search or to kill? MR KGOETE To search for the suspects. ADV SANDI And what about the killing? MR KGOETE The person who gave the permission, was Joseph. MS VILAKAZI Which Joseph are you talking about? MR KGOETE That is Joseph Pirie, he is the one who instructed us to kill Mr Masetla. MS VILAKAZI When Mr Magutla, the previous, the first applicant, Mr Masuku testified that Mr Magutla suggested that the deceased should be executed. Do you agree with that? MR KGOETE Yes. MS VILAKAZI And at the same time you are saying that Mr Pirie is the one who instructed you, can you explain that, that you killed the deceased? MR KGOETE That we should, that he should be killed in which method. MS VILAKAZI Who gave the instruction about the method that should be used? MR KGOETE That is Joseph Pirie. MS VILAKAZI Did you mention that in your application? MR KGOETE I just saw that he was one of the leaders. MS VILAKAZI I want to refer you again to page 9 and also on page 24. In all those pages, you repeated that the Chiefs approved of the deeds of the comrades. I am putting it to you, and I am speaking under correction, correct me if I am wrong, that it is not mentioned anywhere in your application that Mr Magutla gave the instruction that the deceased should be killed, and that Mr Pirie indicated how the deceased should be killed. Am I correct to say that? MR KGOETE Mr Magutla gave an order that his children should go and fetch petrol and a tyre, and then Mr Pirie ordered that he should be, the tyre should be put on his neck. MS VILAKAZI Is what you are saying now, indicated in your application? MR RICHARD I believe it is an unfair question, I don't believe the applicant has had a chance to restudy 100 pages of the volume. CHAIRPERSON Yes. It is a matter of fact, it is either there or not there. Is it possible that it is not there? MR RICHARD It is possible. CHAIRPERSON Yes, it is a matter of fact, I mean, how far do you want to take it? Whether you have studied it, I have certainly not studied it, I don't think that there is time to put that now, so I think you must put what you want to put to him, so that he can respond. MS VILAKAZI I am putting it to you that in your application, you give an impression that the Chief approved of what you did and you do not indicate the role of, you don't indicate that you were instructed by Mr Pirie or, you were acting under instructions of Mr Pirie or Mr Magutla. What is your response? MR KGOETE We were not able to meet with the Chief, but in many instances we would be informed by Joseph Pirie, he would be the one who would relay messages or informations from the messenger or the Chief, that the Chief agrees to continue or not. Then we would just take it as he has stated it. MS VILAKAZI Was Chief Matlala affiliated to any political organisation according to your knowledge? MR KGOETE I would not know his membership, political membership, because I was not able to get into contact with him. MS VILAKAZI Do you recall ever seeing him in any of the ANC meetings? MR KGOETE I did not see him. MS VILAKAZI And what about Headman Matlala, did he belong to, according to your knowledge, did he belong to any political organisation? MR KGOETE I did not know. Again, I did not see him in any ANC meeting. I only saw him during the community meetings. MS VILAKAZI Did you attend the community meetings? MR KGOETE Yes, I attended the meeting of the 12th. MS VILAKAZI Was Headman Matlala present at that meeting? MR KGOETE He was not present. Do you mean the Chief or the induna? MS VILAKAZI I am talking about the induna Matlala? MR KGOETE Are you talking about the induna, Samuel, the Headman, Samuel or the Chief? MS VILAKAZI No, I am talking about Headman Samuel Matlala, was he present at the meeting of the 12th? MR KGOETE I am not able to recall as to whether he was present on the 12th. MS VILAKAZI Then you have just said that, you saw the Headman at meetings of the community and when I asked you which community meetings did you attend, you said on the 12th? MR KGOETE Yes. MS VILAKAZI Did you see Headman Matlala at that particular meeting or not? MR KGOETE On the 12th, he was present. On the 12th he was present. MS VILAKAZI When the deceased was fetched from his home, were you also present on the 15th that is? MR KGOETE Yes, I was. MS VILAKAZI Were you part of the group that went to his house? MR KGOETE Yes, I was. MS VILAKAZI The gentleman sitting next to me, Mr Moses Masetla, did you see him on that day? MR KGOETE Yes, I did. MS VILAKAZI Did you know him before that? Did you know when did he, was he part of the group that went to the house of the deceased Masetla? MR KGOETE I only saw him when Mr Masetla was brought to the meeting, but I did not see him on our way to Mr Masetla's house. MS VILAKAZI Mr Masetla is going to testify that he did not hear the deceased making any confession to killing Mr Mokoena. What is your comment? MR KGOETE That will be surprising because he is one of those who asked Mr Masetla as to whether he played a role in the death of Mr Mokoena. If he denies, I would be surprised. MS VILAKAZI I am also putting it to you that as Mr Masetla is going to testify, there was no taxi violence in that particular area where you lived? MR KGOETE I don't know, that would be his version of what was happening. MS VILAKAZI Do you know that there are people who were arrested and found guilty of killing Mr Mokoena, subsequent to the killing of Mr Masetla? MR KGOETE I learnt about one person. MS VILAKAZI Now what do you have to say about that, knowing that you took part in the killing of Mr Masetla and yet, there are people who were found guilty of having killed Mr Mokoena? MR KGOETE What I will say is that what happened. I asked for forgiveness for that, to him and to the entire family. Those who were arrested and charged, I did not know about them, and then that happened later, but we were informed earlier that he was responsible and then again, I questioned him about that, and then he confessed. I ask for forgiveness for what happened. MS VILAKAZI Do you realise now that Mr Masetla died for something that he did not do? MR KGOETE It is not that he did not do that, because he confessed that he was responsible. If it transpired that he was not responsible, it is, I am surprised to hear that. MS VILAKAZI He must have been scared at that time, not so? MR KGOETE I don't think that he was so frightened that he would agree for what he did not do, knowing that he did not kill him. MS VILAKAZI I have no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS VILAKAZI CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Ms Mtanga? CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS MTANGA Mr Kgoete, on page 4 of your bundle you stated that the Masetla family was ex-communicated from the Mooihoek area, is this correct? MR KGOETE That is correct. MS MTANGA And then you further say that the police, the reason that you took this matter upon yourselves as comrades was because the police did not take any action against the deceased, even after concrete evidence was produced to them. Was this really done, did you ever approach the police or was this matter put to the police? MR KGOETE Days had passed and after Joseph Pirie reported to us that these people are involved in, the people who were involved in Mr Makena's killing are known, and the police knew everything but they were saying nothing really. MS MTANGA Who told the police? MR KGOETE I do not know who reported this matter to the police. MS MTANGA Do you know the person who has been convicted for killing Mr Mokoena? MR KGOETE Yes. MS MTANGA What was his political affiliation? MR KGOETE He lived quite far from me, so I would not know which political organisation he was affiliated to. MS MTANGA Were you amongst the people who went to see a sangoma after the meeting of the 12th of August? MR KGOETE Yes. MS MTANGA Were you present when the sangoma announced that Mr Masetla was responsible for the death of Mr Mokoena? MR KGOETE I was not. MS MTANGA Who told you about what the sangoma said? MR KGOETE Mr Joseph Pirie and, we went to see the sangoma at Tafelkop. At Tafelkop he did not say anything, he just said to us "get into the cars, we are going back". I asked him what the sangoma said, he did not respond. He said the feedback will be given already, when we are already in Mooihoek. The groups were then divided into classes and then Joseph Pirie informed us in the class. He said the person who knows about Mr Makena's killing, the person who killed Mr Mokoena is Mr Masetla. MS MTANGA When this was told to you, did you believe what the sangoma had said about Mr Masetla, did you really believe that he was correct when he said Mr Masetla had killed Mr Mokoena? MR KGOETE Yes, he ended up confessing that he took part. That was a final concrete to believe what was said. MS MTANGA Before Mr Masetla confessed to having killed Mr Mokoena, did you believe what the sangoma had said about Mr Masetla's involvement? MR KGOETE When, I did not know from Tafelkop until in Mooihoek what the sangoma revealed, who she said killed Mr Mokoena. We only learnt when we were at the school that the sangoma said the person who killed Mr Mokoena is this one. I asked then "is it true, do you know anything about Mr Makena's killing" and he responded. MS MTANGA When the group, when your group came back from the sangoma, did you proceed straight from the sangoma to fetch Mr Masetla or did you first go to the school, have a meeting and then went to fetch Mr Masetla, what was the sequence of events? Did you first hear he was the culprit or did you first fetch him and then get told that he was the culprit? MR KGOETE We left Tafelkop, we went to the school. We were told at the school that the, we were divided into a group, we were told a group from Tafelkop get into this class. Those who were left behind when we left for Tafelkop were in the other room. The other elderly men were woken up and we were then informed that the person who killed Mr Mokoena is Mr Masetla and he should be fetched. We went to fetch him. MS MTANGA My question is, at that time, at that point, when you were told that the person who had killed Mr Mokoena was Mr Masetla, that is before you went to fetch Mr Masetla, did you believe what the sangoma had said? Did you think or did you believe that he was correct to say, it could not be wrong by saying that Masetla was the person who had killed Mr Mokoena? MR KGOETE I had doubts when going to the sangoma, I did not believe he could be it. MS MTANGA So your, you only believed it when you heard Mr Masetla confess to it? MR KGOETE Plus what they reported back to us about the revelations of the sangoma. MS MTANGA When you came back from Mr Masetla's house with Mr Masetla, where did you take Mr Masetla to, from his house? MR KGOETE We took him to the school. MS MTANGA Was he inside the classroom or was he outside the classroom? MR KGOETE He went into the classroom. MS MTANGA And where were you at that time? Did you also go in or did you stay outside the classroom? MR KGOETE I went into the classroom. MS MTANGA Did you hear Mr Masetla confess to having killed Mr Mokoena? MR KGOETE Yes. MS MTANGA Who had asked him if he had killed Mr Mokoena? MR KGOETE I asked him and Mr Moses Masetla asked him the same question. MS MTANGA How many people asked him, besides yourself and Mr Moses Masetla? MR KGOETE I do not know about the others, I recall myself and Mr Moses Masetla asking. MS MTANGA I have no further questions, Chairperson. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS MTANGA CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Panel? ADV SANDI Do you know who attended the consultation if I may call it that, with the sangoma? It was Joseph Pirie and who else went inside the house to talk to the sangoma? MR KGOETE Hendrik Mokoena, Mapole Magutla and (indistinct). I do not recall the others. ADV SANDI Thank you. ADV BOSMAN You knew that Mr - I am so sorry, I have just lost the name for the moment - you knew that the deceased was going to be killed? MR KGOETE When we were leaving for the mountain, it was only then that I knew that he was going to be killed. ADV BOSMAN And although you did nothing, you approved of the killing? MR KGOETE Because I went, yes. ADV BOSMAN Thank you. CHAIRPERSON Re-examination? MR RICHARD The Committee has now just asked my last question, no further questions, thank you. NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR RICHARD CHAIRPERSON You are excused, Mr Kgoete. WITNESS EXCUSED