amntrans AMNESTY HEARINGS 2000-10-03 JOHANNESBURG 2 JACOB MANASOE AM1299/96 https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=54512&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/2000/201003jn.htm ON RESUMPTION CHAIRPERSON Who is next? MR RICHARD Jacob Manasoe. CHAIRPERSON Who? Jacob Manasoe? JACOB MANASOE (sworn states) CHAIRPERSON Please be seated. Yes, Mr Richard? EXAMINATION BY MR RICHARD Thank you Mr Manasoe. Mr Manasoe, how old were you in 1990, August? MR MANASOE I was 19 years old. MR RICHARD And at that stage did you know the three applicants before the Committee today? MR MANASOE Yes, I knew them. MR RICHARD You have heard their evidence that all four of you were members of the ANC and the local Self Defence Unit, is that correct? MR MANASOE That is correct, sir. MR RICHARD You confirm that in and during August that year, there were a number of meetings principally those on the 12th and 15th of August and you were present at both of them? MR MANASOE I agree that there was a meeting on the 12th, I was present at that meeting, and on the 15th, there was a meeting, I attended the meeting, but late. MR RICHARD Now, did you know the deceased, Philemon Masetla? MR MANASOE I knew him. MR RICHARD Now, do you remember what political party he belonged to, if any? MR MANASOE I do not recall him being a member of a political organisation. MR RICHARD But for the rest, you have heard the evidence that has been given today by the first witness and the second witness, is that correct, you have heard what they have said? MR MANASOE I heard what they said, yes, it is a correct evidence. MR RICHARD And you confirm what they said and what they said about your involvement? MR MANASOE That is correct. MR RICHARD Now, when you remember the deceased and you remember what happened on the 15th of August, in your heart of hearts did you believe that he was an enemy of the liberation struggle? MR MANASOE Yes. MR RICHARD And you agree with the reasons that your two previous co-applicants had given, for why you hold that belief? MR MANASOE Yes, I agree with those. MR RICHARD Now, I submitted to the two previous witnesses, page 54. Can you have a look at the names on the page? Now you remember what the previous witnesses have said about them, that all these people were in effect ANC supporters, they were all senior to you, both in age and in status within the party, and they were all agreed that the deceased should be necklaced, do you agree with what was said? MR MANASOE Not all of them were senior to us, but they did agree that the deceased should be necklaced. They were members of the ANC. MR RICHARD How many were not senior to you in age? MR MANASOE Six. MR RICHARD My learned colleague on behalf of the implicated people, not on behalf of the victims, seeks to distance the Headman and the Chiefs from what happened. Now, you have also heard your other two co-applicants' answers that how the Chiefs might not have been present, their representatives were present at the meeting, do you agree that the Chief's representatives were present at the meetings? MR MANASOE That is true, the Chief had his representatives. MR RICHARD And would you also agree or disagree with the statement that if a meeting was going to take a decision to do something that the Chief did not approve of, or the Headman did not approve of, the messenger, the representative would be expected and required to tell the meeting what the Chief's attitude was, or otherwise he would not be doing his job? MR MANASOE Yes, if the Chief was not satisfied with the decision, he would convey the message. MR RICHARD And I put it very specifically, if at a meeting something as serious as the death of a member of the community is being discussed, if the Chief's representative at that meeting knew that the Chief disagreed with that decision, the messenger had a positive obligation and duty to tell that meeting what the Chief's opinion was, and if he failed to tell the meeting what the Chief's opinion was, he would be in very, very big trouble? MR MANASOE Yes, the Chief's representative has to come and tell us. If he is not present, he must have his assistant giving us a feedback. MR RICHARD At these meetings during August 1990, at no stage ever did any of the Chief's messengers or representatives ever say that the Chiefs objected to what was happening? MR MANASOE Nobody. MR RICHARD Do you know the gentleman across the room there? MR MANASOE I know him. MR RICHARD What are his names? MR MANASOE I know his surname, I know him as Ntate Masetla. MR RICHARD What is his relationship to the victim of the necklacing? MR MANASOE I do not know how are they related, but what I know is that their surnames are the same. MR RICHARD At the meeting on the 15th of August 1990, did you ever see that gentleman across the room, questioning the deceased? MR MANASOE I saw the gentleman at the meeting, I did not hear him ask a question. The person I did hear asking questions is Kgoete and Abednego and Pirie. Those are the people I heard asking questions. MR RICHARD What were the questions that they asked of the deceased? MR MANASOE They wanted to know whether he was involved in the killing of Mokoena. MR RICHARD What was Philemon Masetla's answer? MR MANASOE He agreed that he killed him. MR RICHARD Did he explain why and how? MR MANASOE He did not explain because after agreeing that he killed him, there was no time to ask other questions. We were told that we should all leave and take him to the mountain. MR RICHARD Were you a member of the group that took him to the mountain? MR MANASOE I was present. MR RICHARD Did you help by tying the deceased to the tree or pouring petrol, or what, or lighting the petrol or making him drink petrol? MR MANASOE I did not help as far as those activities are concerned. MR RICHARD Did you try to stop anyone doing anything? MR MANASOE I did not try to stop them from doing that. MR RICHARD And when he was burnt to death, did you agree that he should be burnt to death for causing the death of the comrade? MR MANASOE Yes. I agreed to his death, because that was the agreement, everybody who was going to kill any of our members or a member of the community, such a person should be acted against. There was no way of stopping the activities that were taking place, that is the killing of this man. MR RICHARD As I hear what you confirm, you believed that the deceased Philemon Masetla had killed one of your fellow ANC members, is that not correct? MR MANASOE That is correct, I believed so. MR RICHARD It is also correct that you believed that he was an enemy of the struggle for those reasons? MR MANASOE I believed so, yes. MR RICHARD It follows that because you confirmed the previous two witnesses' evidence, you believed that the taxi violence in your area was politically motivated? MR MANASOE I do believe there was a taxi violence in our area, yes. MR RICHARD It is going to be suggested that there was no taxi violence in the Mooihoek, Tafelkop area in 1990. What is your answer to that question? MR MANASOE There was a taxi violence, I know two people who died in the taxi violence. MR RICHARD Now, to which political party did the two people you know, belong? MR MANASOE They were members of the ANC Youth League. MR RICHARD Forgive me Chairperson, but I believe that I have covered it, but I will just make sure, and at all material times you were a member of the SDU and the ANC and the Youth League? MR MANASOE Yes. MR RICHARD No further questions, thank you. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR RICHARD CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Ms Vilakazi, questions? CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS VILAKAZI Thank you Chairperson. Mr Manasoe, about the issue of taxi's. First let me ask you, did you live in the Mooihoek area or where did you live at the time of the incident? MR MANASOE I was staying at Mooihoek. MS VILAKAZI Do you know how many taxi's there were in Mooihoek? MR MANASOE I am not sure of the number of taxi's that there were at Mooihoek, I am not sure of the number. MS VILAKAZI What would you say that there more than five for example? MR MANASOE I am not sure Chairperson. In Mooihoek I remember of two and at Tsimanyane I remember of two taxi's. Those are the four taxi's that I knew. MS VILAKAZI Do you know if those taxi's were licensed or not? MR MANASOE I was not sure. MS VILAKAZI I want to refer you to page 63 of the bundle. In the second paragraph, number 3, first let me ask you, who wrote, is this your, part of your application, this page 63 part of your application? MR MANASOE That is correct Chairperson. MS VILAKAZI Whose handwriting is on this page? MR MANASOE That is myself. MS VILAKAZI And the name at the bottom, Jacob Lesiba Manasoe, is that you who wrote that name? MR MANASOE That is correct, I am Jacob Lesiba Manasoe. MS VILAKAZI Now going back to point 3 in paragraph 2, you say "... the former government issued unlimited licences to cause chaos in the black communities to undermine the ANC." Do you see that? MR MANASOE I do. MS VILAKAZI Now why do you say the government issued unlimited licensed, do you know how many licences were issued? MR MANASOE I am not sure of the number, there were many taxi's in our area and our neighbouring areas. They had many taxi's there. That is why I wrote the statement in this way. MS VILAKAZI But you have just alluded to the fact that you didn't know whether the taxi's that you knew of in the area, were licensed or not, not so? MR MANASOE I was not sure as to whether the taxi's which were operating there, were licensed taxi's or not. But the taxi's which were in our surrounding areas, were many. In Mooihoek the taxi's were not many. MS VILAKAZI Now, how do you connect the taxi's, the issuing of unlimited licences by the former government and the taxi violence if there wasn't any taxi violence that took place in your area? MR MANASOE I associated that because people were killed. After that, cases were opened. The people who were responsible for the killings were still operating in that area until the day when Mr Mokoena was murdered. That is then when we had already formed SDUs and we were able to take an action. MS VILAKAZI But you don't know for a fact whether those taxi's were licensed or not? Not so? MR MANASOE Yes, I did not have that information. MS VILAKAZI And then in number 4 you said "... many taxi's were owned by non-blacks and they ordered the killings of the poor passengers." MR MANASOE Yes. MS VILAKAZI Who are the non-blacks who ordered the killing of poor passengers? MR MANASOE In that statement I wrote that taxi's were many in the surrounding areas. Where there were many, there are people whom you would be able to observe that they are just loitering around, then after a short period, you will see them all in new taxi's, therefore we had suspicions that perhaps there are people who are owning these taxi's and probably white people. Many taxi's who were owned by those kind of people, were from town. MS VILAKAZI I am putting it to you that there was no taxi violence in your area, what is your comment? CHAIRPERSON Do you agree or disagree? Don't tell us, don't repeat your evidence please. MR MANASOE I do not agree. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Ms Vilakazi? MS VILAKAZI All right. Still on page 63, right at the top, you said "... since the police did not take action against the deceased, after concrete evidence was produced ..." what concrete evidence was produced against the deceased? MR MANASOE We were informed that the deceased was the one responsible for the killing of Mr Mokoena. We were told by people who were our leaders that therefore we would not believe that they were lying to us. They were our leaders and therefore what they were telling us, was the truth. Therefore we were told by Mr Pirie, he informed us about that in a meeting, that Mr Masetla was responsible for the murder of Mr Mokoena. MS VILAKAZI In which meeting did Mr Pirie say that Mr Masetla is the one responsible for Mr Makena's death? MR MANASOE On the 12th there was a meeting and then in that meeting, the decision was taken that we should go to a place called Moyideng to look for suspects who were part, they were hired by Mr Masetla. We went there to search for those suspects at night. We did not find them, and the following day there was a meeting. We, it was explained to us, it is then that other men informed us that if we found those people, we should go and call them and those people should be killed. Then there was a meeting after that meeting, then after that meeting, the meeting on the 15th was held. MS VILAKAZI Are you saying that the information that Mr Masetla is the one responsible for Mr Makena's death, was given in the meeting of the 12th? MR MANASOE Not on the 12th. Not on the 12th. MS VILAKAZI The question still remains, in which meeting was the information given that it is Mr Masetla who was responsible for Makena's death? MR MANASOE There was another meeting after the meeting on the 12th, after the 12th, there was a meeting, then on that particular night we went to a particular place to look for those people. When we returned, we returned at dawn. Then we were instructed to go home to go and wash. We left and then when we returned, we received information that one of those people is among us, but we were not given that it is Mr Masetla. We were only informed that he is amongst us. Then there was a meeting on the 15th. I did not know what happened at that meeting, because I arrived late. When I arrived, I saw people assembled at the school and they were singing. I entered. Around one o'clock, midnight, two vans arrived. People disembarked from those vans and then Mr Pirie came to the class which we assembled in. He came and said he wanted members of the SDUs, all of us should go to a particular class which was opposite to that one. We left that particular class and went to another class. We were told that Mr Masetla is the one who has killed Mr Mokoena and that we should go and fetch him, but before we had to, there were men who were leaders of the community. They told us when we found Mr Masetla, we should inform them first. I was sent to go and fetch him. I went together with Mishak. We called Mr Mokoena, we found Mr Mokoena and he told us that he would follow us. We left, then we went to Mr Masetla, who is sitting next to you. I knocked at the door, then he asked me, he wanted to find out about my identity, I told him that I am Jackie, then he asked me what I wanted. I told him that I was sent by the comrades in regard to the earlier instruction, that if we found the person responsible for the killing of Mr Mokoena, we should come and fetch them. He told me that he would follow me, then I went to the school and informed the meeting that I informed those men and that they said that they would be coming. We waited for them to arrive and then they did, later. That is Mr Mokoena and Mr Masetla arrived at the meeting. Mr Magutla was present at the meeting, and I did not know who went to inform him. We were told that we should go, all of us, to Mr Masetla's place. We went there. When we arrived there ... CHAIRPERSON I am going to interrupt you, Mr Manasoe, don't repeat the whole story. I think you have responded to the question, it was disclosed that Mr Masetla was supposed to be the killer. Yes? MS VILAKAZI Okay, so if I understand you well, you only knew at the meeting on the 15th that Mr Masetla, the deceased, is the one who is responsible for the death, is that correct? MR MANASOE On the 15th, that is when I knew when I was told directly in a class, and then he, in the way he responded to the questions asked. MS VILAKAZI Do you know anything about the story of the sangoma? MR MANASOE I know nothing about the sangoma. MS VILAKAZI When Mr Masetla was, the deceased, when he was asked whether he killed Mr Mokoena, where were you, were you in the classroom or outside the classroom? CHAIRPERSON Or were you at the meeting or not at the meeting? MR MANASOE At the time when he was asked that question, I was in that classroom. MS VILAKAZI So you heard his response, not so? MR MANASOE I did Chairperson. MS VILAKAZI You said Mr Moses Masetla, sitting next to me, you did not hear Moses Masetla ask the deceased whether he killed Mr Mokoena or not? MR MANASOE I did not hear him ask him a question. MS VILAKAZI But you would have heard him if he had asked that question, not so? CHAIRPERSON If you were present at the meeting at the time when he asked the question, bearing in mind that you came late? MR MANASOE The time when he was asking questions, I was there. It is possible that he asked a question and I did not hear him, but I have no recollection hearing him asking a question. MS VILAKAZI Okay. I would like to refer you to page 65 of the bundle, under Section B, number 11. In response to the request for your justification regarding the offence, your response was "I was misled by the leaders of our ANC Youth League Branch in Mooihoek". Why do you say you were misled? MR MANASOE For me to say I was lied to, it is because we killed a person, and after he was killed, there was nothing better which happened. The only thing that happened is that I was sent to prison. That is why I stated this in my statement. MS VILAKAZI Which ANC Youth League leaders are you referring to here, the ones who misled you, who are they? MR MANASOE Those people like Mr Pirie, he is one of them and Abednego was one of them. Those are the people who gave orders in many instances. MS VILAKAZI Was Mr Pirie part of the Youth League? MR MANASOE And then again he was the Commander of the SDU. MS VILAKAZI Yes, but my question is, was he a member of the Youth League? MR MANASOE Yes. MS VILAKAZI Okay. Do you also believe that the Chief approved of your activities? MR MANASOE I believed so. MS VILAKAZI Why did you believe so? MR MANASOE The reason for my belief is that if he did not agree, the Headman could have told us that the Chief is not in agreement with us. MS VILAKAZI In the same breath, if the Chief did not, was concerned about the killing of people in his area, he would have called a meeting to discuss this, not so? MR MANASOE Sorry? MS VILAKAZI I am saying in the same breath, if the Chief was concerned about the killing of people in his area, he would have called a meeting to discuss that, not so? MR MANASOE It is not so, because we were not, he did not call us, but only the Headman did after the killing. MS VILAKAZI Before the killing, did the Chief call a meeting to discuss, before the killing of Mr Masetla, did the Chief call a meeting to discuss or to indicate his concern about the killing of people in the area? MR MANASOE The Chief did not call a meeting, but the meetings were called by the Headman. MS VILAKAZI Which meeting was called by the Headman? MR MANASOE The meeting which was called by the Headman was on a particular day, though I don't remember the date correctly, but after the meeting of the 12th, there was a meeting which was called by the Headman. MS VILAKAZI In that meeting, did the question of the killing of Mr Mokoena, was it discussed? MR MANASOE I am not sure of the content of that meeting, because I was not present, but I knew about that meeting, and I was working. MS VILAKAZI Do you know if Headman Matlala gave permission for the killing of Mr Masetla? MR MANASOE I do not know. I do not know. MS VILAKAZI Okay. Now, you stated on page 62 that the Chief of the community in line number seven from the bottom, "the Chief of the community approved the deeds of the comrades and ex-communicated the families of the deceased from the community". Why do you say the families of the deceased were ex-communicated? MR MANASOE I do not remember the dates, but they were ex-communicated from the community, then I received the information that they were ex-communicated from our parents. As to whether that was, that order was from the Chief or the Headman, I didn't know, but I observed when they removed themselves from the community and it was spoken about in the community. MS VILAKAZI I am putting it to you that the immediate family of the deceased, that is Mrs Masetla and her children, moved away from the place out of their, it was their own decision, they were not forced to move. You cannot dispute that, can you? MR MANASOE I would not dispute that, because I did not know the true facts as to whether they were ex-communicated, but I was informed that they were. MS VILAKAZI And Mr Moses Masetla, the relative of the deceased, still lives in that area? Do you know that? MR MANASOE I do not know. But when I, before I was imprisoned, he was there, but I don't know for sure that he is currently in that community, but before I left, he was still staying there. MS VILAKAZI I have no further questions, Mr Chair. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS VILAKAZI CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Ms Mtanga? CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS MTANGA I have a few questions, Chairperson. Mr Manasoe, you have testified that you only knew of two taxi's that were operating in your area, that is Mooihoek, am I correct? MR MANASOE Yes, that is correct, I knew of two taxi's which operated in our area, Mooihoek. MS MTANGA Who were the owners of these taxi's? MR MANASOE The one belonged to Mr Mokoena and the other one belonged to Mr Masetla. Those are the taxi's I knew. MS MTANGA At the time of the killing of Mr Mokoena, do you know for how long had the two taxi's been operating in your area? For how long, was it for a year, for more than a year or for more than two years, more than three years? MR MANASOE I am not sure of the duration, but they operated for a longer time before the incident. MS MTANGA Okay. So when in your application on page 63 under the points that you highlight, when at number 3 you state that the former government issued unlimited licences to cause chaos in the black communities, how did this affect the two taxi's that were operating in Mooihoek, whom you say had been operating for quite a long time? MR MANASOE For me to state that the former government issues many licences, fewer licences, the main reason was that the surrounding areas, that is where taxi's are active, there was violence in those surrounding areas, therefore I thought that that was the reason which caused the taxi violence and then again, this affected the two taxi owners in our area, that is Mooihoek. MS MTANGA What type of taxi's were owned by Mr Mokoena and Mr Masetla, was it kombis or just ordinary vehicles, bakkies? MR MANASOE Mr Mokoena had a kombi and a private car. Mr Masetla had a panelvan, so he was using that as a taxi. MS MTANGA Did you at any time suspect Mr Masetla of not being the owner of the taxi that he was using? MR MANASOE Then I did not have a suspicion, before there was confusion. MS MTANGA Did you later have the suspicion that he didn't own the taxi that he was using? MR MANASOE Yes, that is correct Chairperson. MS MTANGA How did you come to suspect that he didn't own the taxi? What was the basis of your suspicion? MR MANASOE I started knowing him being unemployed, he was selling alcohol, not of much quantities, that is why I suspected that he is not the owner of that taxi. MS MTANGA So you are saying Mr Masetla was selling alcohol? MR MANASOE Yes. MS MTANGA Are you also aware that he was selling vegetables? MR MANASOE I did not know about vegetables. MS MTANGA And as you know, he was also involved in the taxi business, so he had three types of businesses, if I may put it to you. Did you know that he had three types of businesses that he was running, even though he was not employed? MR MANASOE I only know about alcohol and then later I knew about the taxi operation. MS MTANGA Was Mr Mokoena employed? MR MANASOE Mr Mokoena was not employed. ADV BOSMAN He was obviously self-employed, Ms Mtanga. MS MTANGA Did you also suspect him as not owning his kombi? MR MANASOE I did not have suspicions, because when I started knowing him, he was driving the Peugeot sedan. Then thereafter, he had another car which was not in order, then he used that car later. MS MTANGA At the time he was driving the Peugeot, did he also have the kombi that he was using for ranking? MR MANASOE He was using the Peugeot as a taxi. MS MTANGA I have no further questions Chairperson. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS MTANGA CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Panel? ADV SANDI Just one question from me Chair. Who was the Chairman at the meeting of the 12th of August? MR MANASOE I am not able to recollect the Chairperson of the meeting on the 12th, but I think it is Mr Mokoena and Mr Magutla. ADV SANDI And at the meeting of the 15th, who was the Chairman there? MR MANASOE On the 15th, I arrived late. I did not know who was the Chairperson of the meeting. I arrived there and people were just singing. CHAIRPERSON Yes. Don't repeat it. ADV SANDI What were they singing, what were they saying as they were singing? MR MANASOE They were chanting freedom songs. ADV SANDI Can you explain why you did not suspect that Mr Mokoena who was unemployed, in the same way as Mr Masetla, why did you not suspect that he didn't own the vehicle he was using as a taxi? MR MANASOE Mr Mokoena was the person I knew him very well, more than Mr Masetla, I started knowing him using that Peugeot as a taxi. That is why I did not have that suspicion. The started using that Peugeot before there were many taxi's. I grew up seeing him using that Peugeot as a taxi. ADV SANDI Why did you not think that Mr Masetla, because he was selling alcohol, would have been able to raise some money and buy another vehicle to use as a taxi? MR MANASOE The duration he spent for selling alcohol, raised suspicion. Even the quantity of the alcohol he sold, gave a suspicion that he would be able to raise enough money to buy a taxi. ADV SANDI Thank you Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON Re-examination? MR RICHARD No questions in re-examination. NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR RICHARD CHAIRPERSON You are excused, Mr Manasoe. WITNESS EXCUSED