amntrans AMNESTY HEARINGS 2000-10-04 JOHANNESBURG 3 WILLEM HELM JOHANNES COETZEE AM4122/96 https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=54517&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/2000/201004jb.htm PETRUS JOHANNES COETZEE (sworn states) EXAMINATION BY MR VISSER Mr Coetzee, you are an applicant in this matter and you request amnesty for the same aspects. Your amnesty application appears in bundle 1 from page 57 and following. You deal with this incident from page 62. Do you confirm the contents of your amnesty application that you had handed in at the TRC, as true and correct, to the best of your conscience and knowledge? MR COETZEE Yes, Chairperson. MR VISSER Did you study the document, "General Background to Amnesty Application", Exhibit A, and have you previously confirmed it with regard to your own experience and do you confirm it once again and do you ask that this be incorporated? MR COETZEE Yes, Chairperson. MR VISSER You have listened to the evidence of Mr de Jager and Mr Pretorius who today gave evidence, is that correct? MR COETZEE That's correct, Chairperson. MR VISSER Do you have any problems with the contents of their evidence? MR COETZEE No, Chairperson. MR VISSER MR COETZEE Yes, Chairperson. MR VISSER Is there anything - or may I just ask you as follows. Concerning the allegation of Mr Pretorius that certain RS agents and an R agent was killed, apparently in Zambia, he said that you have better knowledge of two of them being, and I refer to page 220 and 221 of volume 1, RS276, Constable Isaac Mazibuku and R103, Ms Cecilia Maake. Did you know those two persons? MR COETZEE Yes, Chairperson. MR VISSER Were they your agents and/or informers? MR COETZEE Yes, Chairperson. MR VISSER Can you tell us, Maake was an agent was she not? MR COETZEE Yes, Chairperson. MR VISSER Was the position - did I say Maake, I meant Mazibuku. MR COETZEE Yes, Chairperson. MR VISSER And was Maake also an agent? MR COETZEE Yes, Chairperson. MR VISSER But not a police officer? MR COETZEE No, Chairperson. MR VISSER Mr Pretorius said that she was a contract worker. MR COETZEE Yes, Chairperson. MR VISSER Did you speak to them, to those two persons after the Botswana raid of the 14th of June? MR COETZEE Yes, Chairperson. MR VISSER What was the content of that conversation? MR COETZEE It was their continued infiltration programmes, the monitoring of the activities Chairperson. MR VISSER Were they afraid of the situation, what did they tell you? MR COETZEE Yes, Chairperson, there was always that psychosis present. MR VISSER Were you informed anything about their movements? MR COETZEE No, Chairperson. MR VISSER Did they remain behind in Botswana, or did they leave there? MR COETZEE Later they went up North, Chairperson. MR VISSER And did you received information later from other infiltrated informers as to what happened to them? MR COETZEE Yes, Chairperson. MR VISSER Can you briefly tell us what happened to them. MR COETZEE RS276, Chairperson, died in Quatro after being tortured as a result of torture and illnesses that he got there. R103 died in ...(intervention) MR COETZEE Mr Visser, I won't declare them dead on this evidence. MR VISSER ...(indistinct - no microphone) What happened to R103? MR COETZEE R103 at some stage after torture was killed in Zambia. MR VISSER And would you have preferred that investigations be launched into the circumstances of their deaths? MR COETZEE Yes, Chairperson. MR VISSER Mr Coetzee, if we can return to your statement, and I refer you to page 71 where you deal with this incident and you go over to page 92, at the bottom of page 92 you refer to an operation at Speskop - oh I beg your pardon, I am at the wrong pages, I do apologise. Let us start from the beginning again and while we are starting at the beginning, let's do it properly. On page 49 to 50 you dealt with the underground cell structures and activities in Botswana and there you have given a whole list - oh, I beg your pardon, page 64, I do apologise, you give a whole list there of aspects that dealt with what your investigations entailed. MR COETZEE Yes, Chairperson. MR VISSER I do not want you to go through it, but is that still the evidence about the extent of what you investigated? MR COETZEE Yes, Chairperson. MR VISSER And then on page 51 you mentioned certain names of certain persons, were those the persons ... 65, did I say 51, I'm sorry, 65. I'm sorry Chairperson, it's late in the day. MR MALAN The page in the bundle is 65. MR VISSER I thought I am going crazy here. Were these the persons that you were busy monitoring by means of your agents and informers? MR COETZEE Yes, Chairperson. MR VISSER And can we just go through that list. We have here Calvin Khan, Ricketts, that was not an MK name, this was his proper name? MR COETZEE That's correct. MR VISSER Tim Williams was also not an MK name, that was his proper name? MR COETZEE Yes, Chairperson. MR VISSER Billy Masetla? MR COETZEE Yes, Chairperson. MR VISSER The current Minister of Law and Order. MR BERGER No, he's not. MR VISSER Okay. The Director-General of Home Affairs. I would have failed this test completely, Chairperson. That is also not an MK name, not so? MR COETZEE Yes, Chairperson. MR VISSER And then we have Pepane that you mention. MR COETZEE Yes. MR VISSER Rogers Nkadimeng who was the subject of another amnesty application that served before this Chairperson and Mr Malan? MR COETZEE Yes, Chairperson. MR VISSER Who was Sipho Dlamini? MR COETZEE He was an arrested SACTO trainee. MR VISSER Did he also go under another name? MR COETZEE It is possible, I do not know. MR VISSER And then we have Lambert Maloyi. It's spelt incorrectly, but it doesn't matter. And then Mnisi, which Mnisi was that? MR COETZEE The well-known Mnisi from Pretoria, Chairperson. MR VISSER And what was his name? MR COETZEE I cannot recall his name any longer. MR VISSER Then he was not so well-known. Well you should know him, Chairperson, he applied as an applicant for amnesty in the whole ... Johannes Mnisi. And Ben Zokwe? MR COETZEE Yes, Chairperson. MR VISSER If we study Exhibit B, Mr Coetzee, the names that appear there, did you have any information of number 2 on that list? MR COETZEE No, Chairperson. MR VISSER Mohammed Geer? MR COETZEE No, Chairperson. MR VISSER Michael Frank Hamlyn? MR COETZEE No, Chairperson. MR VISSER And number 4, a person by the name of Keso Pele? MR COETZEE No, Chairperson. MR VISSER Number 5? MR COETZEE No, Chairperson. MR VISSER 6, Duke Machobane? MR COETZEE I have heard the name, yes, Chairperson. MR VISSER But you had no information about him? MR COETZEE No, Chairperson. MR VISSER Joseph Malaza, number 7? MR COETZEE No, Chairperson. MR VISSER Do you know anything about Peter Mofoka, it's apparently a six year old boy? MR COETZEE No, Chairperson. MR VISSER Harry Tamsanqwa Mnyele? MR COETZEE Yes, Chairperson. MR VISSER What do you know about him? MR COETZEE His activities as conveyed to the Committee by Col Pretorius. MR VISSER Was that also your knowledge? MR COETZEE Yes, Chairperson. MR VISSER And Dick Mtsweni? MR COETZEE I heard of him, Chairperson. MR VISSER Nothing else? MR COETZEE Nothing else, Chairperson. MR VISSER We have already discussed Nkadimeng and George Pahle. MR COETZEE Yes, Chairperson. MR VISSER What did you know about him? MR COETZEE As once again told to the Committee by Col Pretorius, his involvement in the activities from Botswana. MR VISSER And then Lindi Pahle? MR COETZEE No, Chairperson. MR VISSER And then the last person on this list of the ANC, Zondi, Mr Basil Zondi? MR COETZEE No, Chairperson. MR VISSER Chairperson, I believe that I have touched on everything. Yes, but probably just the following. You were asked to convey information to Special Forces and you knew this was to be aimed at an attack in Botswana. MR COETZEE Yes, Chairperson. MR VISSER And did you then supply such information and did you give instruction to Pretorius to also convey information? MR COETZEE Yes, Chairperson. MR VISSER The information that you conveyed from Soweto, included more than just only the persons who were killed here, or the targets in this application? MR COETZEE Yes, Chairperson. MR VISSER Did you know that your information would be used for the attack and that persons would be killed and/or injured and that targets would be attacked? MR COETZEE Yes, Chairperson. MR VISSER And did you also foresee that innocent persons could be hit by this? MR COETZEE Yes, Chairperson. MR VISSER Thank you, Chairperson. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VISSER CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR COETSER Mr Coetzee, just one question. If one looks at your affidavit which you submitted, you do mention that at a stage there was a request that Mr Olifant accompany the military on this particular raid because of the fact that the military were unsure about the location of a particular house. You do not however, canvass what your discussion was with Mr Olifant in that regard. What Mr Olifant has describe in his two affidavits are that some time shortly before the raid in June '85, you called him into your office and asked him simply if he remembered the houses that he had observed. He confirmed this and you then told him that Anton Pretorius would be taking him somewhere where he would be practising and be briefed by members of the SADF concerning a mission in Botswana. Relying on your memory now, I know it may be difficult, but would you say that that was in essence the conversation which you had with Olifant, the briefing that you gave him? MR COETZEE I beg your pardon, Sir? Chairperson, I cannot hear him properly. CHAIRPERSON Did you ask Olifant to accompany the SADF to Botswana? MR COETZEE Yes, Chairperson. MR COETSER Mr Olifant has described in his affidavits the content of that discussion that you had with him, I've just read it out to you now. Can you deny that that was more-or-less what the discussion was about? MR COETZEE I accord, Chairperson. MR COETSER Then just one other aspect of your affidavit, you say at page 70 of bundle 1 "Const Olifant in this regard only went to identify the particular address during this operation." MR COETZEE Those were the instructions, Chairperson. MR COETSER So I take it then that this was an assumption on your part as to what he actually did during the operation, based upon the request that you got from the military? MR COETZEE Yes, Chairperson. MR COETSER You don't in fact know exactly what the military asked him to do during the course of the operation? MR COETZEE I cannot comment, Chairperson. MR COETSER Thank you, I have no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR COETSER MR CORNELIUS I shall be brief, I've got no questions thank you, Chair. NO QUESTIONS BY MR CORNELIUS CHAIRPERSON Not so lucky hey? CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR BERGER I'm waiting for Mr Cornelius to ask one question. Mr Coetzee, are the Willie Coetzee from Ladybrand? MR COETZEE No, Chairperson. MR BERGER Do you know about your namesake, Willie Coetzee? MR COETZEE No. MR BERGER Okay. Mr Coetzee, you say at page 67 that you attended a meeting and I assume this is the meeting at Speskop. MR COETZEE Yes, Chairperson. MR BERGER And during this meeting - this is the one which would have been about two to two and a half weeks before the attack? MR COETZEE By approximation, Chairperson, I cannot recall the date. MR BERGER And you say there that "Discussions points during this particular meeting centralised primarily around the following aspects: the Botswana threat analysis, MK underground front structures" Would it be correct to say that the debate was centred on MK and MK activities? MR COETZEE Yes, Chairperson. MR BERGER You were not - you, and when I say you I mean the whole meeting, was not interested in political activities in Botswana, it was the military activities that were of concern? MR COETZEE Yes, Chairperson. MR BERGER And then you say, the third point "Composition of a priority list for purposes of possible and future cross-border action." MR COETZEE Yes, Chairperson. MR BERGER The first point is, hadn't a decision already been taken at that point, that there was going to be an attack? MR COETZEE I cannot comment on that, Chairperson. MR BERGER I'm surprised ... MR COETZEE There was no authorisation at that stage for any cross-border actions, Chairperson. MR BERGER Wasn't the purpose of that meeting to synthesise the list from 29 targets down to 12? MR COETZEE Chairperson, as it is stated, to draw up a priority list. MR BERGER For an attack that was about to be launched. MR COETZEE A proposed attack. MR BERGER Did you play any part in the drawing up of that priority list? MR COETZEE Yes, Chairperson, we gave our inputs. MR BERGER You personally, what was your contribution? MR COETZEE As given by the previous applicant, Col Pretorius, Chairperson. MR BERGER Which was what? MR COETZEE The facilities in Botswana with the persons connected to those facilities, Chairperson. MR BERGER So the six or seven targets that Mr Pretorius spoke about, you confirm? MR COETZEE Yes, Chairperson. MR BERGER The same people that he spoke about, you confirm? MR COETZEE Yes, Chairperson. MR BERGER You listened to my cross-examination of Mr Pretorius? MR COETZEE Partially, Chairperson. MR BERGER Is there anything that you'd want to add to the ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON If he says "gedeeltelik" he didn't listen to everything. MR BERGER Mr Coetzee, you nearly had a shortcut. CHAIRPERSON Were you present when he mentioned the names? MR COETZEE Yes, I was present. CHAIRPERSON Okay, you're back on your shortcut. MR BERGER Sorry, I missed that. CHAIRPERSON He says he was present when the names were dealt with, so that section of Mr Pretorius' evidence he did listen to. MR BERGER You confirm that the only person who was ultimately killed, whose name was put forward by you, and when I say you it's you and Mr Pretorius, was Tami Mnyele. MR COETZEE Yes, Chairperson. MR BERGER And you confirm what Mr Pretorius said about being shown a photograph of the late Tami Mnyele and being told by one or more of the informers that that was Tami Mnyele who died? MR COETZEE Yes, Chairperson. MR BERGER And that was shortly after the attack? MR COETZEE Yes, I cannot recall the dates though Chairperson. MR BERGER And what is your reason for failing to mention the name of Tami Mnyele at the bottom of page 70, top of page 71 of bundle 1? MR COETZEE Chairperson, I will answer it. We were under tremendous pressure, we had to process these things, we had to compile it, we were alone, we had to go in for legal consultation and I ascribe it to that, that I made these mistakes. MR BERGER You were under ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON I assume that that pressure did not allow you to mention any name? The question is, you applied for amnesty with regard to what and whom, and when you filled in this form there was so much pressure that you could not recall a single name or address, do I understand you correctly? I'm not saying you are lying, but do I understand you correctly? MR COETZEE There was no ulterior motive in omitting anything, Chairperson. Secondly, Chairperson, the pressure and thirdly, at that stage one did not have all the data any longer and as time went along the data was recalled in the memory, Chairperson. MR BERGER Mr Coetzee, listen to your answer. You've just told the Committee that you confirm the evidence that the only person who you gave information on who was ultimately killed, was Tami Mnyele, immediately after the attack or shortly after the attack you saw a photograph of the late Tami Mnyele, he was identified to you as Tami Mnyele. Now you can't say that this is information which came subsequent to the handing in of your amnesty application, so we can leave that bit out. You were under so much pressure - start at page 62, look at the detail that you give from 62 all the way through to page 70, lots and lots of detail. You give a whole list of 11 names at page 65, of all the people that you kept under surveillance and yet when you are asked a simple question, to give the names of any of the deceased, you say at the bottom of page 70 "According to my knowledge a number of persons were killed and injured. I do not have any particulars" and then at the top of page 71, when you are asked for the names you say: "Unknown, unknown, unknown, unknown" MR COETZEE That is an administrative - I ascribe that to an administrative omission and the pressure, because there was no ulterior motives. I could have informed the Commission and I would have referred to these aspects. MR BERGER You see what I want to put to you is, maybe you didn't have all the information on Tami Mnyele that you now claim to have had. MR COETZEE I do not agree, Chairperson. MR BERGER Because if you had had that information you would remembered his name, you would have put it in. MR COETZEE I shall ascribe it, Chairperson, to an administrative omission and the pressure. MR BERGER That "druk" that you talk about was self-created "druk". MR COETZEE At that stage we were no longer members of the Force and we had to process these things ourselves and we had to type it ourselves and from a legal point we still had to consult with our legal representatives, and Chairperson, we handed up quite a document. MR BERGER According to your knowledge the purpose of the attack and the purpose of the information for which you supplied information, was to destroy the capacity of MK in Gaberone to launch attacks against South Africa. MR COETZEE I would say so, Chairperson, to disrupt the structures, Chairperson. MR BERGER Thank you, I have no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR BERGER CHAIRPERSON ...(inaudible) MR VISSER Alright, Chairperson, I have no re-examination, thank you. NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR VISSER MR MALAN No questions, thank you. JUDGE MOTATA Mr Coetzee, during the monitoring process leading up to the raid in Botswana, was Mr Mnyele also monitored? MR COETZEE Yes, Chairperson. JUDGE MOTATA Because I'm following up on the question asked by Berger, you have named people on page 65, which you monitored, but I don't see his name there either, you've now monitored several people but you haven't mentioned a Tami Mnyele, that alone to say that he was one of the people who died whom you monitored. MR COETZEE Yes, Chairperson, I should have said "amongst others" as Col Pretorius indicated, that was a mistake from my side. And then I can also add Johnson, other names Chairperson, these were the primary persons. JUDGE MOTATA But was Tami Mnyele not important in this regard because he was killed and you were shown his photograph? MR COETZEE Yes at that stage Chairperson, it was his wife. JUDGE MOTATA Thank you Chairperson, I have no further questions. Thank you, Mr Coetzee. MR MALAN I have no questions. CHAIRPERSON Thank you, you're excused. WITNESS EXCUSED MR VISSER Mr Chairman, I believe, unless I've lost count, the last of my witnesses is Mr Meyer. He's also willing to take the oath without objection, and he wishes to speak Afrikaans, Chairperson.