amntrans AMNESTY HEARINGS 2000-10-04 JOHANNESBURG 3 JOHANNES CHRISTOFFEL MEYER AM4152/96 https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=54518&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/2000/201004jb.htm JOHANNES CHRISTOFFEL MEYER (sworn states) EXAMINATION BY MR VISSER Mr Meyer, we cannot recall, I would have to ask you, you are an applicant in this matter and you request amnesty with all the other applicants for any offence or delict committed by you with regard to this attack in Botswana in 1985, is that correct? MR MEYER That is correct, Chairperson. MR VISSER You have already previously appeared before this Chairperson and Mr Malan, and given evidence. MR MEYER That is correct, Chairperson. MR VISSER And on that occasion a letter from a doctor, Dr Jacobs, was handed up, is that correct? MR MEYER That is correct, Chairperson. MR VISSER That was Exhibit C. Chairperson, I cannot recall which application it was. Can you perhaps recall? MR MEYER It was the weapons cache point in Krugersdorp. MR VISSER Thank you. And now I will give the document to my learned friend, Chairperson. The reason why we do not have copies - let us embarrass ourselves for a moment here, is because we recall that we handed it in, but we can make copies available and hand it to everyone. CHAIRPERSON I will explain it to my colleague here. The most important thing is that it gets to Mr Berger. MR VISSER We do have two, we will certainly give you one and then of course Mr Berger and then in order to save time, Mr Meyer, I would just like to say that at some point in time, the 15th of April, you had a heart attack ... MR MEYER No, it was not a heart attack, it was a blockage in the arteries. MR VISSER And you were resuscitated afterwards. MR MEYER That's correct, Chairperson. MR VISSER And this has left you with a limited memory. MR MEYER That's correct. MR VISSER Do you now request the Amnesty Committee to consider this when they listen to your evidence? MR MEYER That is correct, Chairperson. MR VISSER Mr Meyer, in 1985, were you attached to the Intelligence Unit of the Security Branch of Soweto? MR MEYER That is correct. MR VISSER What was your rank then? MR MEYER I was a Warrant Officer then. MR VISSER You have completed an application which you handed up to the TRC, which can be found on page 168 and following, of volume 1, is that correct? MR MEYER That's correct, Chairperson. MR VISSER The information contained in there, is that true and correct according to the best of your knowledge? MR MEYER Yes, Chairperson. MR VISSER And you have previously studied the background document to amnesty applications and confirmed it, do you once again do so? MR MEYER That's correct, Chairperson. MR VISSER Mr Meyer, you deal with this particular incident from page 175 and you have just said that you were attached to the Intelligence Unit, were the previous two witnesses your seniors? MR MEYER Yes, Chairperson. MR VISSER And did you do whatever you did under the instruction of one or both of them? MR MEYER That's correct, Chairperson. MR VISSER Did you do what your task was? What did your duties entail? MR MEYER Just before that I arrived at Soweto, in February/March of 1985, where I was under the command of the then Lieut Coetzee. MR VISSER And what were your duties? MR MEYER To obtain intelligence ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON ...(inaudible) MR VISSER No I don't want to lead him too much, Chairperson, but if you could help ... CHAIRPERSON Mr Meyer, you know what the application is about? MR MEYER Yes. CHAIRPERSON What was your part, as you realised it, in this incident? MR MEYER My part Chairperson in this incident was that there was certain information with regard to facilities which I had to collect, I attended meetings and I was present that day at Nietverdiendt at the operational room. CHAIRPERSON What did you do there? MR MEYER We were there only in an auxiliary capacity with regard to questions that may be asked. CHAIRPERSON Did you know what was going on? MR MEYER Yes, I knew. MR VISSER Perhaps if I can just add. Did you know that at any stage information that you promoted through your senior officers to Special Forces, would be used for an attack in Botswana? MR MEYER I knew, Chairperson. MR VISSER And did you reconcile yourself with that? MR MEYER That's correct, Chairperson. MR VISSER Can you today recall any name that you specifically collected information about, that was promoted to Special Forces and that was one of the people that was killed or injured in this action? MR MEYER I know about Anderson. MR VISSER What did you know about him? MR MEYER I knew she was involved with the ANC in Botswana. MR VISSER Did some of your sources monitor her? MR MEYER That's correct. MR VISSER And did you put that information in reports? MR MEYER That's correct. MR VISSER What were those activities? MR MEYER If I recall correctly she was involved in training, instant training, and she was also involved in the underground structures. MR VISSER Did you know what the address was where she lived? MR MEYER I cannot recall. MR VISSER If there is evidence now that she lived with MK Abrahams and with Mike Hamlyn, which was previously the house of Marius and Jeannette Schoon, can you deny that? MR MEYER No, I know about Abrahams but I do not recall the other name, Mike Hamlyn. MR VISSER Is there any other persons that you can recall that you promoted, whose names you promoted? MR MEYER Not at this stage, Chairperson. MR VISSER Were you present at the meeting at Speskop where Gen Kat Liebenberg was present? MR MEYER I cannot recall correctly, Chairperson, but I was at a meeting at Speskop, I do not know whether this was the same meeting. MR VISSER Was there more than one meeting? MR MEYER Yes. CHAIRPERSON But you cannot say you attended the meeting when this attack was discussed? MR MEYER No, I know at some stage I can recall that certain questions were asked with regard to the facilities themselves. It could be. CHAIRPERSON But you cannot say? MR MEYER No, I cannot say. MR VISSER Thank you, Chairperson. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VISSER MR COETSER I have no questions, thank you. NO QUESTIONS BY MR COETSER MR CORNELIUS I have no questions. NO QUESTIONS BY MR CORNELIUS CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR BERGER Thank you, Chair-person. Mr Meyer, the medical certificate that I have here says that as a result of the fact that your heart stopped ...(inaudible) memory. MR MEYER That's what the letter says, yes Sir. MR BERGER Yes, that's what the letter says, but is that what happened? MR MEYER I am not entirely certain what happened, but that is how I have the story, that is what happened. MR BERGER You mean you can't recall if you lost your memory or not? MR MEYER No, I can't. There was a time that I didn't know of anything. MR BERGER But this incident happened last year, in April of last year, and when you submitted your amnesty application you didn't suffer from any loss of memory. MR MEYER No, not that I am aware of Chairperson. MR BERGER Ah, well this is impossible. Okay, let me do it this way. When you submitted your amnesty application you didn't mention the names of any people who were killed during the attack. MR MEYER Correct. MR BERGER You can see that at page 187 and 188. So can we take it that at the time you submitted your amnesty application you had no knowledge of the names of any people who were killed during the attack? MR MEYER It must have been, Chairperson. MR BERGER And so, does it follow that you never gave forward any information which was ultimately used by the SADF, of ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON I think in all fairness, Mr Berger, he never submitted to these decision makers any information which was used in determining who should be killed and who should not be killed. If we can put it that way. MR BERGER Well I'm trying to be fair, that's why I'm not asking ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON ...(indistinct - no microphone) MR VISSER Yes, except for the house in which Muff Anderson lived, Chairperson, that's the one that he says that he did promote to them. CHAIRPERSON ...(indistinct - no microphone) Mr Visser, I'm not say that he didn't give any information, he supplied information that was in a dossier of some sort, in the normal route of his employment, but he never attended any meeting that he can remember, where he submitted any information which was relied upon. MR VISSER That's absolutely correct. MR MEYER That's correct, Chairperson. MR BERGER Mr Meyer, is that so? MR MEYER Yes, Sir. MR BERGER So for example, the name Tami Mnyele, that doesn't ring any bells for you? MR MEYER Not at all, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON The way things are now I don't think anything is going to ring a bell ...(inaudible) MR BERGER Well that's not absolutely so because you do remember Muff Anderson. MR MEYER Yes, Chairperson. MR BERGER And you do remember that Muff Anderson is a woman. MR MEYER Correct. MR BERGER And you do remember gathering information on Muff Anderson and the house where she was living. MR MEYER Correct, Chairperson. There were various houses about which we gathered information. MR BERGER And would I be correct to say that you never went yourself to Botswana, you relied on informants to give you this information? MR MEYER Correct, Chairperson. MR BERGER And your informants, were they amongst the three who we've spoken about who died, or were there others? MR MEYER I am not entirely certain, I cannot recall properly how many informers I had at that stage, but in approximately February I arrived in Soweto, so the possibility of one informer that we used there, but I'm not entirely certain of what information he gave. MR BERGER For how long were you gathering intelligence on Muff Anderson and the house where she was living? MR MEYER If I can work it out roughly, it was approximately six or seven months, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON ...(inaudible) MR MEYER Yes, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON And it could at the most be four months? MR MEYER Yes that's correct, I beg your pardon, yes probably three months. MR BERGER So from February when you arrived in Soweto, from February until June, you were gathering information on Muff Anderson. MR MEYER I will state it differently, I was involved with information that was collected, but not necessarily that I collected it myself. MR BERGER No, I accept that. As well as Urial Abrahams? MR MEYER That is also correct, Chairperson. MR BERGER And you knew that they lived in the same house. MR MEYER I'm not sure. CHAIRPERSON Do you have any knowledge or do you know of any reason why you were not informed about a person who lived with those two persons? MR MEYER No, Chairperson, I have no reason except ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON You would have expected your informer to say that there was another man living there? MR MEYER That's correct, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON And he does this, that and the other. MR MEYER That's correct, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON But you do not recall that? MR MEYER No, I cannot recall the name Chairperson, but the informers or agents gave us that information we would have known about it. CHAIRPERSON And Mr Berger says that there will be witnesses that say that. MR BERGER That's why we want to know who the informers are, so we can ask them. But be that as it may. The name Mike Hamlyn doesn't ring any bells and the fact that there was someone else living in the house where Muff Anderson lived and Urial Abrahams lived, that also doesn't ring any bells? MR MEYER Not at all, Chairperson. MR BERGER And as far as all the other people that we've spoken about in this hearing, people who died in the attack, none of those names ring any bells for you? MR MEYER Not at all, Chairperson. MR BERGER Just one final question, Mr Meyer. You say you were in the operational room at Nietverdiendt. MR MEYER Chairperson, maybe I stated it incorrectly, I was there but not necessarily in the operational room. MR BERGER Yes, but as I understand the evidence, all the policemen were kicked out of the rooms. MR MEYER That's right. MR BERGER You said you were there to help with information. MR MEYER That was impression as well, Chairperson, during the incident. MR BERGER No, during. But you didn't give any information? MR MEYER No not at all, Chairperson. MR BERGER In fact you did nothing but just stand and watch? MR MEYER Stand around. MR BERGER Or sit and watch. MR MEYER Yes. CHAIRPERSON So to that extent you did not even contribute to the operation there, because you were not even allowed? MR MEYER No, I was not allowed. MR BERGER And that applies to all the policemen who were present, or not? MR MEYER Yes, according to my knowledge all the police officers were not allowed to go in, Chairperson, because we could not do anything. MR MALAN May I just ask a follow-up here because I couldn't understand the reason why a person at the level of applicant Steyn would not have been allowed there. Could this have something to do with the involvement of the police with regard to the cross-border attack? Maybe I should have asked Steyn, maybe you're the wrong person to ask this. Do you know why you were outside? MR MEYER No, I do not know. MR VISSER Well I must just say, Chairperson, that Steyn testified that he and Loots were allowed and in fact, Pretorius confirmed that. MR MALAN Yes I recall that now, sorry. Thank you. MR BERGER But they were not part of the operation? Perhaps one could ask Gen van der Merwe those kind of questions, he might be able to help. JUDGE MOTATA ...(inaudible) police never even partook in the party. MR BERGER No, the party was before - according to Stiff, the party was before the operation. JUDGE MOTATA ...(inaudible) MR BERGER He wasn't there. CHAIRPERSON ...(inaudible) MR BERGER I've got no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR BERGER ADV STEENKAMP No questions, thank you. NO QUESTIONS BY ADV STEENKAMP MR VISSER No re-examination, thank you Chairperson. NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR VISSER CHAIRPERSON Very well, you are excused. MR MEYER Thank you very much, Chairperson. WITNESS EXCUSED MR CORNELIUS I beg leave to call Mr McPherson.