amntrans AMNESTY HEARINGS 2000-09-30 JOHANNESBURG MASHETLA RAMMUSI AM5488/97 https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=54520&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/2000/201004jn.htm CHAIRPERSON Good morning. We want to start the proceedings. It is for the record Wednesday, 4th October 2000 and we are proceeding with the sitting of the Amnesty Committee at the JISS Centre in Johannesburg. The Panel is constituted as will be apparent from the record. The matter before us this morning is the amnesty application of Paul Ramashetla Rammusi, amnesty reference AM5488/97. Mr Knopp, do you want to put yourself on record? MR KNOPP Thank you Mr Chairperson. My name is Knopp, K-N-O-P-P, initials H.A. Advocate, I appear for the applicant in this matter today. CHAIRPERSON Thank you Mr Knopp. And the Leader of Evidence? MS MTANGA I'm Lulama Mtanga, the Evidence Leader, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Thank you ma'am. Mr Knopp, do you want your client to be sworn in? MR KNOPP Thank you. PAUL RAMASHETLE RAMMUSI (sworn states) EXAMINATION BY MR KNOPP Thank you Mr Chairperson. Mr Rammusi, you are the applicant today before this tribunal? MR RAMMUSI That is correct. MR KNOPP What is your age? MR RAMMUSI I am 38 years old now. MR KNOPP Did you depose to an affidavit in this matter? I'm showing it to you now, does it contain your signatures? MR RAMMUSI That is correct. MR KNOPP Mr Chairperson, the affidavit appears in the bundle as pages 10, 11 and 12 in the hand-written form and pages 8 and 9 in the typed version thereof. Mr Rammusi, you're a member of the African National Congress? MR RAMMUSI That is correct. MR KNOPP And were you also a member of the movement known as Umkhonto weSizwe? MR RAMMUSI That is correct. MR KNOPP Is it so that you received military training as a member of Umkhonto weSizwe? MR RAMMUSI That is correct. MR KNOPP Where did you receive this training? MR RAMMUSI In Angola in 1983. MR KNOPP When you finished your training did you return to the Republic of South Africa? MR RAMMUSI It was quite some time before coming back home because in 1985 I did further training until in 1986. MR KNOPP When did you return to South Africa? MR RAMMUSI I arrived in South Africa in 1987 in May. MR KNOPP And what area were you living? MR RAMMUSI When I arrived I went to Rustenberg because I was doing political work and I left Rustenberg for Soweto. From Soweto I went to Springs, that is kwaThema. MR KNOPP And during approximately August and September 1987 were you in Springs? MR RAMMUSI That is correct. MR KNOPP Is KwaThema one of the suburbs or townships of Springs? MR RAMMUSI That is correct. MR KNOPP Did you hold a specific position in KwaThema at the time? MR RAMMUSI Yes, I was the second-in-command at that time. MR KNOPP In command of what? MR RAMMUSI Political as well as military units. MR KNOPP And who was the commander? MR RAMMUSI It was Simon Nkuna at that time. MR KNOPP Now there are two men sitting here in this hall. They're dressed in prison clothes. Do you know them? MR RAMMUSI I see them, yes. MR KNOPP Who are they? MR RAMMUSI It's The Whizz Rantlha and Moesa Nkauta. CHAIRPERSON Repeat those names please? Interpreter just spell it for me? INTERPRETER The Whizz Rantlha and Moesa Nkauta. Rantlha - R-A-N-T-L-H-A. Nkauta - N-K-A-U-T-A. CHAIRPERSON Okay, thank you. ADV BOSMAN May I just enquire? Your commander, could you just spell out his name? Was it Nkuma or Nkuna? MR RAMMUSI Nkuna. MR KNOPP Mr Ramussi, these two men are they presently serving out sentences at Modderbee Prison in the Springs area? MR RAMMUSI That is correct. MR KNOPP That in 1987, were you together with them? MR RAMMUSI That is correct. MR KNOPP Were they co-members or comrades of yours? MR RAMMUSI That is correct. MR KNOPP And on the date of the instant in approximately September 1987 were they together with you? MR RAMMUSI Yes they were together with me. MR KNOPP Were you travelling in a certain motor vehicle at the time? MR RAMMUSI That is correct. MR KNOPP Who was the driver? MR RAMMUSI The driver was Moesa at that time. MR KNOPP Where were you sitting? MR RAMMUSI I was at the back seat. MR KNOPP And where was Daniel Rantlha sitting? MR RAMMUSI I don't quite recall, we were four in a car and we were in the company of some girls at that time and we had gone for a reconnaissance mission. MR KNOPP Do you remember the type of motor vehicle? MR RAMMUSI It was a Ford. MR KNOPP Was this motor vehicle a lawful motor vehicle or had it been stolen? MR RAMMUSI It was a stolen car so to - I wouldn't say it was a stolen car but we actually took cars for the mission of the organisation. MR KNOPP Yes, but the point is this, if the Police would come across such a vehicle would the Police become suspicious from the vehicle? MR RAMMUSI That is correct, the Police would suspect such a car. They suspected the car because it was in high speed. MR KNOPP And what arms and ammunition did you have? MR RAMMUSI A rifle, AK47 and grenades and a pistol. MR KNOPP Which weapon did you personally use at the time? MR RAMMUSI I had an AK47. MR KNOPP Were you travelling in an area known as Senta? MR RAMMUSI That is correct. MR KNOPP And what happened then? MR RAMMUSI The Police tried to stop us on the road. We did not stop because my driver was a very good driver so we managed to speed off and we managed to reach White City and we got out of the car and fired at them. MR KNOPP Before your motor vehicle came to a standstill did the Police shoot at your vehicle? MR RAMMUSI They shot the back window of the vehicle. MR KNOPP Was that during the chase? MR RAMMUSI That is correct. MR KNOPP At what stage did anyone return fire from your vehicle? MR RAMMUSI May you repeat your question please? MR KNOPP At what stage did anybody return fire from your vehicle? MR RAMMUSI We were already at White City. We got out of the car and we went into the township and that's when we managed to shoot back at them. MR KNOPP Can you say how many policemen there were at the time? MR RAMMUSI I am not sure really because after this incident those who got injured were transported in their car and they left. MR KNOPP During this instant did you fire at the Police with an AK47? MR RAMMUSI Yes I did. MR KNOPP And one or more members of the South African Police injured in the shoot out? MR RAMMUSI I know that one got injured but in the newspaper it was reported that it was more than one person who got injured. I wasn't sure, I was really not sure of the number but I knew that it was only one person that got injured. MR KNOPP After the shoot-out did you and the other occupants get into the Ford motor vehicle again? MR RAMMUSI That is correct. MR KNOPP And did you drive away from the scene? MR RAMMUSI Yes, we left the scene. MR KNOPP At a certain place did you part from the other occupants of the vehicle? MR RAMMUSI Yes, there was such a time we parted ways. MR KNOPP Were you left with any arms or ammunition? MR RAMMUSI No, The Whizz left them all and he left from Sikani. MR KNOPP Was there not another instant that night where you proceeded to the house of the policeman in White City, KwaThema? MR RAMMUSI There is such an incident, yes. MR KNOPP At the time of that instant were you armed with anything? MR RAMMUSI I was armed with a handgrenade at that time. MR KNOPP And do you know the identity of that policeman, the ...(indistinct) of the house? MR RAMMUSI I knew the policeman by sight because he resided in the township. MR KNOPP Not his name? MR RAMMUSI I don't know his name. MR KNOPP Do you have the address perhaps? MR RAMMUSI I only know that it's Mikakumbani Street. When I arrived at this policeman's house I threw the handgrenade through the window. The front door was open and there were elderly people in the house so I had to avoid them and throw the grenade into an empty room and for political propaganda. MR KNOPP Can you say whether the handgrenade exploded? MR RAMMUSI Yes, it exploded in the room. MR KNOPP Can you say whether anyone was injured during that instant? MR RAMMUSI I would not recall what happened. I only heard a rumour that a person died during the crossfire. MR KNOPP Yes Mr Rammusi, my question is actually, from the explosion of the handgrenade was anyone injured? MR RAMMUSI Nobody because there was nobody in that room. ADV BOSMAN I'm completely confused now, I may have missed something. Where did the person die in the crossfire? You said a person died during the crossfire, you heard about it? MR RAMMUSI The person was in Matsoegi Street. It was during a shoot-out between ourselves and the Police. MR KNOPP Is the position that you're not sure whether that deceased was struck by a bullet shot by either yourself or your comrades or the South African Police? MR RAMMUSI We are not sure, Sir. MR KNOPP And you don't know the identity of that deceased? MR RAMMUSI I do not know the identity of the deceased. MR KNOPP After these two incidents did you go into hiding? MR RAMMUSI After these incidents I took out an order that the chaps should go underground. I left for Soweto and I went on with my political activities. MR KNOPP After a few weeks did you proceed to Botswana? MR RAMMUSI That is correct. MR KNOPP Did the South African Police later arrest your comrades Rantlha and Nkauta? MR RAMMUSI That is correct. MR KNOPP And were the firearms and ammunition confiscated by the South African Police at the time of the arrest of your comrades? MR RAMMUSI That is correct. MR KNOPP How long did you spend in Botswana for? MR RAMMUSI A few months, Sir, and afterwards I left for Zambia. MR KNOPP When did you return again for South Africa? MR RAMMUSI In 1993 when we all came back home. MR KNOPP Is that you and the other political exiles? MR RAMMUSI That is correct. MR KNOPP You have never been charged or prosecuted for these offences? MR RAMMUSI No. MR KNOPP And are you contending that you committed these acts with a political motive? MR RAMMUSI That is correct. MR KNOPP And what was that political motive? MR RAMMUSI The political objective was to remove the previous regime that oppressed the people and we all know that we were fighting a military junta and we really wanted to remove the regime that was not serving the people of the country, they were only serving the interests of the whites and that is why I came to South Africa so that I could also be part of the people who were fighting the old regime, to remove it from power and get a new government instead. MR KNOPP Now one of the members of the South African Police that was injured during that skirmish about which you testified is sitting here today. It's Superintendent Ludick. Do you see him? MR RAMMUSI I see the man sitting there. MR KNOPP Do you have anything to say to him? MR RAMMUSI There is something I'd like to say to him and this is that it was not our wish to injure or to kill. We were just performing our freedom duties and I did all this in South Africa because I was on command. I was part of the family of the ANC and if we wanted something we had to get it. He got injured and I wouldn't like to see him with one arm really. He got injured because we were in a war situation. I am saying to you Sir I did not do this deliberately. There was no choice. There was no other way. The only way was to be engaged in war and get our land back, all of us. Today all of us we are happy and we enjoy our liberation. MR KNOPP Thank you Mr Chairperson. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR KNOPP CHAIRPERSON Ms Mtanga, any questions? CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS MTANGA Yes Chairperson, I do have a few. Mr Rammusi, when did you join the ANC? MR RAMMUSI I joined the ANC in 1982. MS MTANGA Where did you join it? MR RAMMUSI In Botswana. MS MTANGA And when did you become a member of the MK? MR RAMMUSI I became a member of the MK in 1983. MS MTANGA Where did you join the MK? MR RAMMUSI In Zambia, that's where our offices were situated. MS MTANGA The two persons, that is Mr Nkauta and Rantlha who were involved with you in this incident, were they also members of the ANC? MR RAMMUSI They were members of the ANC internally not outside. In other words I trained them inside the country. MS MTANGA Were they members of your unit? MR RAMMUSI They were members of my unit at that time, yes. At the time of their training in 1987. MS MTANGA At the time you came across the Police vehicle and you had weapons in your car, what were you going to use those weapons for? MR RAMMUSI We had not yet had a mission, we were still busy with reconnaissance. I was still busy with the planning of operations. When they intercepted us we were from a reconnaissance mission. MS MTANGA Where did they obtain these weapons from? MR RAMMUSI I brought them with from Botswana. MS MTANGA And then when the Police tried to stop you why didn't you stop? MR RAMMUSI The first thing is because we had weapons. The second point I had documents containing certain information. The third point, the car that we were using was taken from a white person for public use and it was a criminal offence during those days to be found in possession of weapons and information very sensitive. MS MTANGA When you were asked about whether this car was stolen or not you said this car was actually taken. Was this a stolen vehicle that you were driving? MR RAMMUSI I wouldn't like to talk too much and say that the car that we were in was stolen. Our war, the war I was involved in was an urban warfare and I needed to have transportation means. We did not negotiate with the owner maybe but the armed struggle language would not be stolen, no. The vehicle was expropriated. MS MTANGA Would you say you took it by force from the owner? MR RAMMUSI No, to expropriate means you can take somebody's vehicle and not pay the person anything and maybe not return the car because you use it for public purposes. CHAIRPERSON Mr Rammusi, just give us the details about that expropriation, where did it occur? When? MR RAMMUSI I actually delegated. If I had an operation, I had members of the units who are given different responsibilities. CHAIRPERSON Yes, now where did it occur and when? Can you give us all the details not all the facts. Can you just tell us, just brief, I just want information. Where was this vehicle expropriated and when? MR RAMMUSI In Springs, that is I don't know the place exactly where in Springs the car was expropriated but it was in the same year. CHAIRPERSON In 1987? Which year was it? MR RAMMUSI That is correct, 1987. CHAIRPERSON How long roughly before this incident with the Police? MR RAMMUSI I think a day before. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. MS MTANGA Thank you Chairperson. Chairperson, I would just like to confirm that according to Inspector Samuel Ludick who was a policeman driving the Police vehicle on the day, he suspected that vehicle to be a stolen vehicle by looking at the registration number of it hence the reason that the three were chased by the Police. You mention that you also later on in that day involved in throwing a handgrenade at a policeman's house? MR RAMMUSI That is correct. MS MTANGA When did you decide to do this? When did you plan that operation? MR RAMMUSI Because the interception had already taken place I was very happy to be involved in that hit because the ANC gathered some facts because of that propaganda and it gained support as well. MS MTANGA My question was, when did you plan the operation to attack the policeman's house with a handgrenade? When was that planned? MR RAMMUSI At the time. MS MTANGA Where you aware if this policeman was amongst the policemen who were chasing you at that time or who came to the scene of the shoot-out? MR RAMMUSI The policeman was not among the others. MS MTANGA Chairperson, I have no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS MTANGA CHAIRPERSON Thank you Ms Mtanga. Has the Panel got any questions? ADV SANDI Can you give us the name of the person who was involved in the what you called expropriation of the car? Who was physically involved in that? MR RAMMUSI I sent Moesa to do the expropriation. ADV SANDI When you were being chased after by the Police, how many exactly were you in the car? You mentioned some girls who were in your company? MR RAMMUSI If I recall well we were four in the vehicle. ADV SANDI Namely? MR RAMMUSI Moesa, The Whizz. I do not know the names of these girls, we were using them for less suspicion methods or actions on the way. ADV SANDI How many girls? MR RAMMUSI There were two. ADV SANDI Who is The Whizz? Sorry, I don't follow? MR RAMMUSI The Whizz Rantlha. ADV SANDI Is that Rantlha? MR RAMMUSI Yes, that's Rantlha. ADV SANDI Thank you. Thank you, Chairperson. ADV BOSMAN May I just enquire, who gave you orders to come into South Africa and become politically active here? Who was your commander then? MR RAMMUSI At that time I was working with Commander Chris Hani. ADV BOSMAN And were you then told to join up with Mr Nkuna or that just sort of happened as you went along with your activities? MR RAMMUSI I was not told that. I was sent into the country to create the underground units in South Africa. ADV BOSMAN And then after this incident did you report this back to Mr Nkuna? These two incidents? MR RAMMUSI Simon Nkuna was working from Pretoria at that time. When we arrived in South Africa we came up with a method of scattering in South Africa so that we are not all gathered at one place and be easily arrested. If the whole unit is arrested then we're all dead so we were all scattered. ADV BOSMAN My question was did you report to Mr Nkuna about these two incidents? He was working from Pretoria, I understand, but my question is did you report to him what had taken place. The shoot-out with the Police and the throwing of the handgrenade? MR RAMMUSI Yes, he knows that. ADV BOSMAN And he approved of it? MR RAMMUSI Yes. ADV BOSMAN Thank you. CHAIRPERSON Any re-examination Mr Knopp? MR KNOPP No re-examination, Mr Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Thank you Mr Rammusi, you are excused. Thank you. CHAIRPERSON Any other evidence? MR KNOPP That is the evidence for the applicant. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Ms Mtanga? WITNESS EXCUSED MS MTANGA Chairperson, I have no evidence to lead but I would like the Committee to allow me to place on record the details of the victims. CHAIRPERSON Please go ahead ma'am. MS MTANGA ADDRESSES We have present today at the hearing Inspector Samuel Ludick the junior who was shot in the neck during the shoot-out with the applicant and his co-perpetrators. His address is Organised Crime Unit, Nongqai, Post Office Avenue, Springs. Telephone number 011-8153141. The second person who was with him in the vehicle was his father who was then not a policeman. His name is also Samuel Ludick so I'll refer to him as Mr Samuel Ludick senior. He was shot in the leg during the shoot-out. His contact details will be the same as Mr Ludick junior. And then the policeman whose house was thrown with a handgrenade, his name is Abel Sealogo. I didn't get his ranking in the Police at that time. He is Abel Sealogo, spelt S-E-A-L-O-G-O, but no one was injured at the house but his house was damaged as a result. He has passed away, he passed away about four weeks ago. His son, Det. Sgt. Andrew Sealogo indicated to Mr Ludick that he would have loved to attend but due to the death in the family he was unable to attend. He is also with the same unit as Inspector Ludick. His contact number is 0829339185. The fourth person who was a bystander and who was shot dead during the shoot-out, his or her details are unknown but Inspector Ludick promised to assist us to get the details of this person. An advert was also placed on the newspaper for them to approach us but no one has come forward on this incident. And then lastly, Chairperson, I'd like to place on record that I consulted with the two implicated people. Their full names are Moesa Nkaota. Nkaota is spelt N-K-A-O-T-A. And the second named person who is referred to as The Whizz is Daniel Rantlha, that's his real name, Daniel Rantlha. They both are convicted of this incident but they got indemnity in 1991 and they indicated that the applicant didn't get indemnity because he was out of the country at that time when they applied for indemnity. That is all I wanted to place before the Committee, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Thank you Ms Mtanga. We have noted all of that information. Mr Knopp have you got any submissions? MR KNOPP IN ARGUMENT Thank you Mr Chairperson. I would respectfully submit that the application of the applicant complies with the technical requirement of Act 34/1995. Secondly, I would submit that the acts about which the tribunal has heard were motivated and associated with a definite political objective and thirdly and lastly I would respectfully submit that the applicant has made full disclosure of all the relevant facts to the best of his ability and I would ask that the tribunal grant amnesty to the applicant. CHAIRPERSON Thank you Mr Knopp. Ms Mtanga, any submissions? MS MTANGA Chairperson, I have no submissions to make and I'm not opposing this application. NO SUBMISSIONS BY MS MTANGA CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Yes, that concludes the matter. The Panel will consider the application and will endeavour to prepare a decision in this matter as soon as the circumstances permit so the decision will be reserved. Mr Knopp, we thank you for your assistance. You had another matter before us this morning but there have been some logistical and other problems so I think that takes care of your interests today at least, but you're excused. MR KNOPP Thank you. CHAIRPERSON Only with pleasure. Thank you very much. And Inspector Ludick, thank you for your presence and thank you for the assistance that you promised in regard to locating or trying to ascertain the information concerning the bystander that was injured in the particular incident. Thank you for attending and the best of luck. Yes Ms Mtanga, do you want us to stand down or what? MS MTANGA Yes Chairperson, I'd like us to stand down to organise ourselves. CHAIRPERSON Yes, well you order us to stand down so we'll do that until you order us to come back. MS MTANGA I will do so, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. We'll stand down briefly. COMMITTEE ADJOURNS