amntrans AMNESTY HEARINGS 2000-10-05 JOHANNESBURG 4 PHILIP TOTO MADONSELA AM8093/97 https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=54524&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/2000/201005jn.htm PHILIP TOTO MADONSELA (sworn states) CHAIRPERSON Yes, Mr Richard. MR RICHARD Thank you Chair. Thank you Mr Madonsela. EXAMINATION BY MR RICHARD Mr Madonsela, you heard Mr Dlamini's evidence and did you pay attention to what he said? MR MADONSELA Yes. MR RICHARD Now do you confirm what he said? MR MADONSELA Yes. MR RICHARD Do you confirm that in and during the period 1985, 86, 87 you were all part of the UDF? MR MADONSELA That is correct. MR RICHARD Now you heard Mr Dlamini describe what was planned for Christmas 1985. MR MADONSELA Yes. MR RICHARD What was the relationship after Christmas 1985, through 1986 into 1987 between the UDF and the Councillors and those who supported the Councillors? MR MADONSELA The relationship worsened from the time of Black Christmas in 1995, from then right up to 1987. MR RICHARD Thank you. Now you've heard him describe that certain people were killed on the 25th of December 1986, who were those people? MR MADONSELA People who were killed that day were Bhumgame Radebe and Comrade Joel Mputi. MR RICHARD Now what organisation did these two deceased people belong to? MR MADONSELA They were members of the UDF. MR RICHARD Thank you. Now, where were you when they were killed? MR MADONSELA I was present. I was in the company of Comrade Gideon Gumede. I came across this group that one particular morning, I mean the Eastern Pirates MG group and when we came across these people, they stopped us and requested for some cigarette light and we did so, after which somebody who was behind me had produced a sword or a panga and the other ones asked for some cigarettes and the other one tripped me and as I was lying down, they came running, actually some of them came running and the ones who were with me started assaulting me, but fortunately I managed to escape and I fled. MR RICHARD Now did you see the two people being killed, or had you run away by then? MR MADONSELA No, I did not see them, I had fled already. MR RICHARD Were there police in the area at the time? MR MADONSELA I did not see the police at the time of my being attacked, but I heard this. MR RICHARD Thank you. Now ... INTERPRETER Chairperson, may he please repeat his answer? MR MADONSELA I heard from my brother who survived the incident, he said he escaped from the house where they were being attacked and he ran into a police van, being pursued and being attacked by these people. MR RICHARD But you never saw it personally? MR MADONSELA Yes, I did not. MR RICHARD Now I'm going to give you a collection of names one by one, Whisky Lulu Louw, did you know him? MR MADONSELA Yes, I know him. MR RICHARD For how long? MR MADONSELA Not for a very long time. MR RICHARD Where did he live? MR MADONSELA I was not quite sure whether he stayed at Sharpeville, or Simondale, one of the two, but yes, I knew him. MR RICHARD Now did he support a political organisation or was he a member of any political organisation? MR MADONSELA No, he was not political, he was a member of MG Pirates. MR RICHARD What function did he perform there? Was he a leader, or Chairperson, or a Captain, or just an ordinary member? MR MADONSELA What I know is that he was a member of the club. MR RICHARD Now, then there were other people like a Mr Masebuko, do you know him? CHAIRPERSON Mr Richard, I'm sorry to interrupt, don't you want to just complete the picture around Mr Louw? Do you want to know whether the applicant participated, whether he associated himself with this? MR RICHARD Thank you, I'll deal with that now. CHAIRPERSON Finish it off and then we go to the next one, because at this stage, much is really common cause. MR RICHARD Yes. CHAIRPERSON So we can actually speed it up a bit. MR RICHARD Thank you. Now, were you party to the killing of Mr Louw? MR MADONSELA Yes, I was part of that killing. MR RICHARD Now why did you and the people in your group decide to kill Mr Louw? MR MADONSELA We decided to kill him because he was part of the soccer team and that he was one of the people who attacked our brothers, including myself. MR RICHARD Now, when did he attack you? MR MADONSELA He was attacked when I was being accompanied by my brother on December the 25th in the morning and Louw was part of the group that attacked me. MR RICHARD What did he do in that attack? MR MADONSELA And I indicated that after I had fallen down, they continued hacking me. I got injured in the head and the body and he was part of the group that was attacking me. MR RICHARD Did he have a panga, or a stick, or did he throw stones or have firearms? MR MADONSELA No, he had a knife in his possession. MR RICHARD And what did he do with the knife? MR MADONSELA He stabbed me. MR RICHARD Now did he stab you once or more times? MR MADONSELA God was on my side. I only got a few stab wounds in the attack. MR RICHARD And were they all inflicted by Mr Louw, or did others also stab you? MR MADONSELA Yes, there were others who stabbed me, not only Mr Louw. MR RICHARD How many others can you identify? Can you give us their names? MR MADONSELA Yes. Roadblock, Damane, Mashaba, Kaiser, Tuwa and several others. MR RICHARD Now, did they belong to any other organisation and if so, what was its name? MR MADONSELA They were members of Eastern MG Pirates. MR RICHARD Now after you had been assaulted and stabbed and they tried to murder you, did you go to the police? MR MADONSELA I did not because on that day after receiving the news that my fellow brothers were killed in front of the police, I concluded that the police were in cahoots with this group, but yes, my parents did go to the police to report the matter. MR RICHARD Did you give your parents the list of names that you've given us? MR MADONSELA Yes, I did. MR RICHARD Did the police every prosecute any of those people that you named, including Mr Louw? MR MADONSELA They did not. MR RICHARD Now shortly after that Boxing Day attack, early that January there was a meeting of the UDF, were you present? MR MADONSELA Yes, I was present. MR RICHARD And were all your co-applicants, except those who couldn't attend because they were injured, present as well? MR MADONSELA That is correct. MR RICHARD Now, at that meeting, various decision were made, amongst them that you would now defend yourselves and do various other things. Would you tell us what those decisions were? MR MADONSELA The decisions that were taken to the effect that we should defend ourselves were as a result of our conclusion that the police were trafficking with MG Pirates and they were responsible for the attacks. Decisions that were taken were that we should attack them the same way as they were attacking us. MR RICHARD Now you were party to the killing, as you've just told us, of Mr Louw in August 1987. Do you remember exactly what day that was? MR MADONSELA No, I cannot recall the day or the date, but yes, I do recall that it was in August 1987. MR RICHARD What time of the day? MR MADONSELA It was in the late afternoon, I'm sorry, in the late morning. MR RICHARD Now you heard what Mr Dlamini said. Do you confirm what he said and that is that you found Mr Louw walking in the area and then decided to give chase and to attack him, do you confirm what he said? MR MADONSELA Yes, I confirm that. MR RICHARD Is there anything you want to add, or explain or change about what he said? MR MADONSELA No. Mr Dlamini has already explained everything that happened that day. MR RICHARD Did you personally stab Mr Louw? MR MADONSELA Yes, I did. MR RICHARD And were you one of those that followed him into the river or dam? MR MADONSELA Yes. MR RICHARD Now I move on to the next incident and that's ...(intervention) ADV SANDI Sorry Mr Richard, just before you move on to the next incident, can I just ask Mr Madonsela, on the day these people were attacking yourself, your brother and your other comrades, did they give you any reason why they were attacking you? Did they say anything, or did they just attack you without saying anything? MR MADONSELA No reason was given. ADV SANDI Did they say anything, did they talk? MR MADONSELA They did not say anything, the only conversation was when there was this request for some light and cigarette and after that they started attacking. MR RICHARD Why do you think they attacked you? MR MADONSELA We had already indicated earlier on that the relationship between the comrades and these MG Soccer people was strained, so that lead to them attacking me. MR RICHARD Were there other attacks on other dates and other places on the comrades by the soccer team? MR MADONSELA Yes. MR RICHARD How many other attacks? MR MADONSELA Mr Dlamini, who was in the company of Mr Bhumgame Radebe, was attacked and in another incident comrade Tisha was attacked and I was also attacked in that incident, in that separate incident. MR RICHARD And to repeat the Committee's question, did they ever explain to you their reasons for attacking you? MR MADONSELA No reasons were given for the attack. MR RICHARD Now, in the process of the consumer boycotts, the stay-aways and that protest activity, what did the supporters and members of the Eastern MG Pirates Soccer Club do? Did they come and interfere with your boycotts or did they come and participate? MR MADONSELA They did not support us, save to say things like: "Why don't we go and burn the town?" and "Why shouldn't we go and find in town?" and "Why should we engage in boycotts that affected blacks?", but our understanding was that we had to engage in stay-aways and boycotts to affect the Government. MR RICHARD Thank you. Now we'll proceed on. You heard what Mr Dlamini said about the attack on the bus and the fact that some of you went to Tokoza to the stadium, is that correct? MR MADONSELA Yes, that is correct. MR RICHARD Now how many of you went to Tokoza? MR MADONSELA There were 6 of us who went to Tokoza. MR RICHARD Now what did you plan to do while in Tokoza? MR MADONSELA We had planned that we were going to get some of the MG Pirates members. We intended to capture one or two of them, kill them, to send a message to the effect that what they did to us is a bad thing. MR RICHARD So where would you kill them? Would you kill them there near the stadium, or would you abduct them? MR MADONSELA We had planned that should we see one of them wondering around, we would capture that person and kill him. MR RICHARD Now when you say if you saw one of them wondering around, did it matter which one, or what position that one person had in the Soccer Club? MR MADONSELA What we knew was that out of the people who were behind this team, were involved in the killing of our fellow comrades and some of them were present when I was attacked. MR RICHARD So it didn't matter whether it was just an ordinary supporter, or a leader, or a player? MR MADONSELA Yes, that is correct. MR RICHARD Now, do you remember which month this happened in? MR MADONSELA Yes, it was in March. MR RICHARD Do you remember the date? MR MADONSELA I cannot recall the date. MR RICHARD Now it's been explained already that you couldn't do anything at the stadium. At what stage did you plan to organise an ambush of the bus? MR MADONSELA We planned after realising that these people were now boarding the bus in preparation for departure and our concern was that we were not able to capture any one of them and we came up with this idea that we should wait for them somewhere and bruise them. MR RICHARD So when you reached the place where you planned to do the ambush, could you describe to us very briefly what you did? MR MADONSELA We were travelling in a kombi and when we came to this slope, that is where we thought the bus would be coming here at a high speed and we stood there and we got out of the vehicle with the petrol bombs and we effected the attack as they came. MR RICHARD Now what did you use to make the petrol bombs? CHAIRPERSON Ja, I think that's common cause Mr Richard. Did you do anything personally? Did you throw a petrol bomb? MR MADONSELA No, I did not. I was travelling in the transport, I should say I was in the vehicle that was to be used as an escape vehicle. CHAIRPERSON Yes. You agreed with the attack on the bus, is that right? MR MADONSELA That is correct. CHAIRPERSON Good. Mr Richard, what is the next incident? MR RICHARD The next incident was the killing of Mr Masebuko. Did you know of the killing of Mr Masebuko? MR MADONSELA No. MR RICHARD Did you participate in its planning? MR MADONSELA No. MR RICHARD Can you tell us anything about it? MR MADONSELA No, nothing. MR RICHARD The fourth incident was ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON Did you agree with the attack on Mr Masebuko? MR MADONSELA No, I did not. CHAIRPERSON Did you not? MR RICHARD Why didn't you agree with that? CHAIRPERSON Yes, perhaps you must lead him properly. MR RICHARD Sorry. Did you know Mr Masebuko? MR MADONSELA Yes, I knew him. MR RICHARD Was Mr Masebuko a supporter or member of the Eastern MG Pirates Soccer Club? MR MADONSELA Yes, he was a supporter, a follower. MR RICHARD Did you know an attack on him was planned? MR MADONSELA No, I have no idea when this attack was planned, but the decision had already been out by the 3rd of January to the effect that we should also give them the same treatment as they do unto our brothers. MR RICHARD When you heard that Mr Masebuko had been attacked, did you agree with the fact that he had been attacked? MR MADONSELA Yes, I agreed with that. MR RICHARD Do you know how he died, how he was attacked? MR MADONSELA No, I have no idea. MR RICHARD Now in June that year, three vigilantes were killed and in the bundle Sipo Ngwenya and five other unnamed UDF members were party to that killing. Were you involved in it? MR MADONSELA No, I was not party to it. MR RICHARD Did you know it was going to happen? MR MADONSELA No, I did not. MR RICHARD Now, did you know Patrick Sithole? MR MADONSELA I cannot recall Patrick Sithole quite well. MR RICHARD Did you hear about the attack after it happened? MR MADONSELA Yes, I heard. MR RICHARD And what was your attitude to the attack, did you object or support it? MR MADONSELA Yes, I associated myself with it. MR RICHARD And did you know any of the victims and the names I've got are, Mabuleko Dlamini, Esau Twala and a certain Bheki, did you know any of those? MR MADONSELA Yes, I knew them. MR RICHARD And did they belong to any political organisation or support any political party? MR MADONSELA They were members of Eastern Pirates MG. MR RICHARD Did you hear about your comrade, Sipo Ngwenya's arrest? MR MADONSELA Yes, I heard. MR RICHARD Now the fifth incident involves the assault and killing of Mabisi Mazizi, did you in any way participate in the planning or execution of that killing? MR MADONSELA No, I did not. MR RICHARD Did you know it was going to happen before it happened? MR MADONSELA No, I did not. MR RICHARD When did you first hear about it? MR MADONSELA I heard on the same day, but in the evening of the same day. MR RICHARD And what was your reaction to the news? Did you associate yourself with what your comrade had done? MR MADONSELA I thought he deserved it, I thought he deserved to be injured. MR RICHARD And did you know Mr Mazizi? MR MADONSELA Yes, I knew him. MR RICHARD Why did you think he deserved to be killed? MR MADONSELA He was one of those people who attacked me. MR RICHARD Now do you know Vusi Mnisi? CHAIRPERSON Is that the next incident? MR RICHARD No, it's one of the perpetrators. CHAIRPERSON Of what? MR RICHARD Of the killing of Mr Mazizi. CHAIRPERSON Is he an applicant? MR RICHARD No, he's not an applicant. CHAIRPERSON Yes. Does it help us? MR RICHARD I'll leave the point. CHAIRPERSON Yes, much of this is not disputed. Perhaps we can just get the part of the applicant and see whether he associated himself with the rest. MR RICHARD I've covered that, so I'll leave that incident. CHAIRPERSON Yes. MR RICHARD The sixth and last incident was the shooting, not killing of Spundla Mpila in March 1987. Were you a party to that shooting or did you participate in its planning? MR MADONSELA I did participate in the planning. MR RICHARD In what way? MR MADONSELA We held a ...(indistinct - background noise) to the effect that one comrade should be sent out to launch an attack on their section. MR RICHARD Now why did you decide to attack that section? MR MADONSELA We resided at that section, so we knew that if we launch an attack there, we would be able to attack or injure someone there. MR RICHARD Who did you plan to attack and injure, just residents of that section, or a specific group, or individual? MR MADONSELA We targeted the MG supporters. MR RICHARD Was Mr Mpila an MG supporter? MR MADONSELA That's correct. MR RICHARD Now had you ever seen Mr Mpila in the company of a Sgt Meyer? MR MADONSELA Yes, I did in that period when I was attacked, the Sgt Meyer was in their company. MR RICHARD And Mr Mpila, that's Spundla Mpila was specifically with Sgt Meyer, or were they just in the same area at the same time? MR MADONSELA They were together because Sgt Meyer was in a police van and they were seated at the back. MR RICHARD And what were they doing in the back? MR MADONSELA When I approached the van, I informed my colleagues not to flee because we were about to meet our enemies who were after us, so we did not run away, but as the van passed us and I turned to look at them, one of them who was in the van, Derek Masina, recognised me. They all jumped out of the van and gave chase, but I fled. Sgt Meyer gave chase in the police van and passed me and waited for me ahead. As I approached the next street, I saw the van in which Sgt Meyer was. I then returned to that house from which I had been approaching and fled to a safer place. MR RICHARD Thank you. Now I don't believe there are any further question. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR RICHARD CHAIRPERSON Mr Nyawuza, any questions? ADV BOSMAN Chairperson, may I, just before Mr Nyawuza, may I just clarify something? Mr Madonsela, did you have legal representation when you filled out this form? I'm not trying to catch you, I want to try and help you here. MR MADONSELA No, I did not. ADV BOSMAN Now when you attended the meeting, did you decide and you decided with the others, that you would kill anybody and attack anybody that was part of the MG Pirates Team or supporters of the team, is that right? MR MADONSELA That is so. However, the emphasis was also placed on those people who were leaders in that.. ADV BOSMAN Yes. Okay, I just want - so when you gave evidence now about incidents which you did not mention on your form, it was because you didn't know that you had to put that down as well, the other people that you approved of that had been killed, is that right? MR MADONSELA Yes, there were incidents that were not mentioned in the form because I was not aware that I'd be required to give evidence on them. ADV BOSMAN Do you mean to get amnesty for all these people that you had decided with the others you should attack and kill? Is that your intention? MR MADONSELA That's correct. ADV BOSMAN That's something that - Mr Richard you should perhaps just attend to. Thank you Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Yes, Mr Nyawuza. MR NYAWUZA Only a few questions. CHAIRPERSON Yes. CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR NYAWUZA Mr Madonsela, do I hear your testimony correctly when you say it wasn't time, it wasn't long enough that you had known Lulu Louw? MR MADONSELA That's correct. MR NYAWUZA Long is a relative term. Maybe if you put it in terms of months, weeks, or a year, how long would you say it was? MR MADONSELA I would estimate a time of about 6 months. MR NYAWUZA And was he a player or a supporter or an office bearer at MG Pirates? MR MADONSELA He was a supporter of MG Pirates. MR NYAWUZA Did he at any stage attack you, or do you perhaps know of any incident where he was involved in the attack of comrades? MR MADONSELA As I mentioned earlier on, he was part of the group that attacked me. MR NYAWUZA And you are still positive today that he was part of the people that attacked you? MR MADONSELA Yes. MR NYAWUZA And regarding the, you know, the MG Pirates supporters and players thing, were all these people perceived to be enemies of the comrades? MR MADONSELA That's correct. MR NYAWUZA So an attack on MG supporters would be indiscriminate of whether the person had partaken in attacking any of the comrades, would I be correct in saying so? MR MADONSELA We particularly knew that they were all involved in the attack of comrades because when they launched these attacks, there were many of them. MR NYAWUZA And when you come to the N3 highway matter where Aubrey was part of the people that were in the bus, did you have any intentions of getting Aubrey injured on that particular day, or you were not specifically aiming at a particular individual, you were attacking the supporters and the players? What is it that you had in mind? MR MADONSELA Our attack was directed at people in the bus because we were aware that those people were responsible for attacks on us. MR NYAWUZA Are you saying all the people that were in the bus were responsible for attacks on you, or most of them? MR MADONSELA I would say all of them, because I was not aware of the specific individuals who were in the bus, so I assumed that since the bus was carrying MG supporters and players, it was all of them. MR NYAWUZA Mar Madonsela your attacked on MG Pirate supporters and players, was it retaliatory? Were you retaliating to them having attacked you first, or what prompted that? What prompted the attack, the killing, you know, between yourselves and these guys, more on your attack on them, what prompted the killing of MG supporters and players? MR MADONSELA We attacked them after they had launched attacks on us or after they had started killing us. We were interested in knowing why they had decided to attack us. Unfortunately we were not able to find that out. MR NYAWUZA And in your attack, how many people you know did you have in mind? Did you have the 11 players, or let's say about 18 players and the office bearers of MG Pirates or how many people did you have in mind? Who were your specific targets? MR MADONSELA We directed our attack at members of MG Pirates, because the entire team was in agreement about attacking us, therefore it made sense to attack everyone who supported that team, except for their parents. MR NYAWUZA Mr Madonsela, did Aubrey partake in any of the attacks on the comrades? MR MADONSELA Yes, he did. MR NYAWUZA When? MR MADONSELA Even on the day when I was attacked on the 3rd, he was also present. MR NYAWUZA Mr Madonsela it's my instruction that Aubrey doesn't even know that Sgt Meyer, what's your comment on that? MR MADONSELA No one admits to a crime but we are now before the Truth Commission to tell it as it happened. MR NYAWUZA Mr Madonsela, I wish to advise you that Aubrey is not opposing your amnesty and not opposing your amnesty, he doesn't have any reason to come before this Committee and tell lies, otherwise if he wanted to tell lies, he would oppose your amnesty and just create a bunch of lies to put you in a tight corner, so what would be the reason for him lying? MR MADONSELA If he says he was not present when I was attacked by people who were with Sgt Meyer, then he's lying. MR NYAWUZA No further questions, thank you. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR NYAWUZA CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Ms Mtanga? MS MTANGA Two questions Chairperson. CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS MTANGA Mr Madonsela, the incident where you were attacked by the MG Pirates Football Club and assisted by Sgt Meyer, where did this take place? I want the exact location. MR MADONSELA We were in ...(indistinct) section in Zakele. MS MTANGA When was this? MR MADONSELA It was on the 3rd of January 1987. MS MTANGA And who were you with? MR MADONSELA I was in the company of two comrades from Tokoza. MS MTANGA Mr Madonsela I wish to put it to you that Sgt Meyer who is now Capt Meyer, denies having been involved in attacking UDF members and thereby assisting MG Pirates Football Club, what do you say to this? MR MADONSELA Well, he may deny it all he wants now, but I did see him on that day. MS MTANGA ; Well were you and your colleagues or any of your colleagues approached at any time during this period of this violence by Sgt Meyer to investigate what was really going on? Were you ever approached by Sgt Meyer? MR MADONSELA No. MS MTANGA ; I again put it to you that according to Capt Meyer, who was then a Sergeant, he had tried to approach the UDF members, including yourself, to try and investigate the incidents that were taking place against you and you were not co-operating as the UDF and the reason that you come here and you allege that he was assisting the MG Pirates Football Club, it's because they were co-operating with the police in the investigations and hence they were seen with the Football Club people. What do you say to this? CHAIRPERSON Do you agree, or disagree? MR MADONSELA I say I do not agree with what he says. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Yes, Ms Mtanga. MS MTANGA Thank you Chairperson, no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS MTANGA CHAIRPERSON Pane? ADV SANDI Thank you, no questions, Chairperson. ADV BOSMAN No questions, thank you. CHAIRPERSON Re-examination? MR RICHARD Very few questions. RE-EXAMINATION BY MR RICHARD Mr Madonsela, as at 1987 a group of people were seen to be co-operative and working with the police, how would the UDF have seen them? MR MADONSELA Those people would be regarded as associates of the police in the killing of comrades. MR RICHARD Now, well it's difficult to say that the UDF had a firm policy, in your area, in Standerton, what was your police? To work with the police or to oppose them and not to co-operate with them? MR MADONSELA We were opposed tot he police because they were responsible for arresting us for the political violence that was taking place at the time. MR RICHARD Now is it not true that if anyone was found to be giving information to the police of almost any nature, that person would have been the object of strong suspicion and be suspected of being an "impimpi"? MR MADONSELA Yes, that is correct. MR RICHARD Now, to turn to the question put by the Committee, when you and your co-applicants decided to apply for amnesty, did anyone sit down with you and explain what type of detail you needed to give, why you needed to give certain types of information and what the purposes of giving certain ...(END OF TAPE) MR MADONSELA ...that whoever wishes to seek amnesty for political crimes, should come forward. We then discussed the letter and decided to come forward explain what happened at that time. MR RICHARD Now, we know what happened in 1987, it is what is covered by this application. Is it not correct that you and all your co-applicants do not see yourselves as individuals but see yourselves as a group of people who did various things? MR MADONSELA We regarded ourselves as comrades, members of the UDF and it had not been our intention to attack and injure people, our struggle had not been directed at individuals but at the boers who were in Government at the time. MR RICHARD Now, is it not your intention as a group, to apply for amnesty for everything that each of you did as individuals and you collectively took responsibility as a group for doing? MR MADONSELA I would say that because all these acts were committed whilst we were members of one group, we decided to come forward and fill in our applications as such. MR RICHARD No further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR RICHARD CHAIRPERSON Yes, thank you very much. Mr Madonsela, you're excused, thank you. WITNESS EXCUSED MR RICHARD Thank you. ....(indistinct) Mr Ngwenya. CHAIRPERSON Mr Richard we'll deal with his testimony at 2 o'clock. It appears to us as if, unless there's something that we're not aware of, it appears to us that the particular role of an applicant and whether or not he associates with what happened, seems to be the thrust of the evidence, so we believe that there shouldn't be too much time taken us and therefore we'll take the adjournment at this stage until 2 o'clock. COMMITTEE ADJOURNS