amntrans AMNESTY HEARINGS 2000-10-05 JOHANNESBURG 4 SIPO A NGWENYA AM8096/97 https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=54525&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/2000/201005jn.htm SIPO A NGWENYA (sworn states) CHAIRPERSON Mr Richard. MR RICHARD Thank you Chairperson. EXAMINATION BY MR RICHARD Mr Ngwenya, you've heard the evidence of the previous applicants. Do you confirm what they have said? MR NGWENYA Yes, I do. MR RICHARD You believe that they accurately described both their own and your role in the various transactions and events that they've given evidence on? MR NGWENYA Yes, that is correct. MR RICHARD Is there anything you want to add, alter or amplify? MR NGWENYA I don't want to subtract anything. MR RICHARD Now, I'm going to go directly then to the first incident and that's the killing of Whisky Lulu Louw. Now, would you please tell us what you personally did in that killing. Did you personally stab the deceased, assist anybody? MR NGWENYA Thank you Chair. Yes, I did stab Lulu and yes I partook in his killing. I killed him with a jungle knife. MR RICHARD Now I'm going to put it as a catch all question. Did you and your co-applicants all see Mr Louw as an opponent of the liberation struggle, a supporter of the old regime? MR NGWENYA Yes, that is how I perceived him. MR RICHARD And do you agree and associate yourself with the reasons for forming that opinion given by your previous co-applicants? MR NGWENYA Yes, I agree with that. MR RICHARD And then on the second incident, that was the attack on the bus, were you personally involved in that event? MR NGWENYA No, I was not present during that attack. MR RICHARD Were you party to its planning? MR NGWENYA I would say that in everything that concerned MG Pirates, everything that happened, even though some of these things happened in my absence, happened with my consent. MR RICHARD You associate with what was done. MR NGWENYA Yes, that is correct. ADV BOSMAN May I just come in here? Were you party to the decision that was taken that all MG Pirate members and supporters should be attacked? MR NGWENYA Chairperson on the 3rd of January 1987 we were from the funeral of Comrade Joel and Bhumgame Radebe. Yes, we came to agreement that there are certain important people who were important in the opposition that was ...(indistinct) our fellow comrades. We should kill them. Unfortunately I was in prison at the time, but yes, I associated myself with everything that was happening, that was the decision that we took in 1997. MR RICHARD Thank you. Now the third incident, on which we haven't heard direct evidence yet, and that was the killing of Mr Masebuko, do you remember when that incident happened? MR NGWENYA Yes, I do recall. MR RICHARD Which year? MR NGWENYA In January it was in the evening, January 1987. MR RICHARD Now, was that the first event after your decision of 3 January? INTERPRETER May the question please be repeated. MR RICHARD You had a meeting on the 3rd of January 1987 that various things would happen. Now this event, the killing of Mr Masebuko happened in January 1987. Was it the first thing that happened after you took the 3 January 87 decision? MR NGWENYA Yes, that is correct, that was the first incident after the decision was taken on the 3rd of January in that Masebuko incident. MR RICHARD Now do you know Mr Masebuko's full names? MR NGWENYA Yes, Mandla is the name, Mandla Masebuko. MR RICHARD Now, with whom did you plan to attack Mr Masebuko and why did you? MR NGWENYA I would like to say that we did not plan. We were sitting at a particular house and Mr Masebuko, on his way from the gym, we chased him, we got hold of him and started attacking him with pangas and we were sitting at this particular house, we were outside the house and we saw him coming from the gym. MR RICHARD Why did you decide that Mr Masebuko should be attacked? MR NGWENYA He was part and parcel of the players of Eastern Pirates MG. MR RICHARD And when you use the word we, who is we? You and who else? MR NGWENYA It was myself, Dida Twala, the late Sipo Tshabalala was also part of it. MR RICHARD Now how did you know that Mr Masebuko was associated with the Eastern MG Pirates Soccer Club? MR NGWENYA He was a player of Easter Pirates MG and I was also a player belonging to Easter Roman ...(indistinct) and one of the things that I was - I knew Bele, Ndombela and also Masebuko, we used to go to the same school together. MR RICHARD Do you know whether Mr Masebuko belonged to any political party or supported any political cause or what his political opinions were? MR NGWENYA Mr Masebuko was not in a political group, he was a member of Eastern Pirates MG. MR RICHARD And what were Eastern Pirates MG's political opinions? What did you think they were? MR NGWENYA That group was political, but they then had a conflict with us following rumours and information that we had gathered, that led to the intensification of the conflict between the two of us. MR RICHARD Did you see them as supporters of the South African Police and the old regime? MR NGWENYA That happened after we had a conflict, that's when the police got involved, but initially they were just playing soccer, having nothing to do with the Police. MR RICHARD As at January 1987, when you killed Mr Masebuko, what was the position? MR NGWENYA I would say the situation was very tense in the township. It was not possible to move freely about the township and they were colluding with the Councillors. MR RICHARD And as at that stage, did you see them as supporters of the Councillors and supporters of the old apartheid government? MR NGWENYA That is correct. MR RICHARD How did you kill Mr Masebuko? MR NGWENYA We chased him. We stabbed him. He fell. I had a jungle knife and I stabbed him and one other comrade had a panga and he stabbed him too. MR RICHARD Did you do anything else? MR NGWENYA We put him in a van and we took him near St John, the church. Before we went to St John, we actually took an empty container to buy some petrol and also got hold of a tyre and then we dosed him with petrol and made him drink some of the petrol and put the tyre round his neck and then we set him alight. MR RICHARD Now were you ever arrested for the event? MR NGWENYA Yes, I was. MR RICHARD Were you prosecuted and tried? MR NGWENYA I was not sentenced, I was acquitted. MR RICHARD Before the incident which was in June 1987 and involved the killing of three vigilantes, do you remember the incident? MR NGWENYA Yes, I do. MR RICHARD Now who were these vigilantes? MR NGWENYA Mabuleka Dlamini, the same Twala, Bheki whose surname I have forgotten, he used to reside in Morewa Street. MR RICHARD Did these vigilantes - why do you call them vigilantes? MR NGWENYA That was the term we used because they did not collaborate with the comrades. MR RICHARD Who did they collaborate with, if anyone? MR NGWENYA When we got hold of Mr Lulu as we were travelling with him in the kombi, he referred to Mr Mgomezulu who was a Councillor and Mr Meyer who was a police at Secunda and there was also Mr Greyling who was a police senior during those apartheid days. MR RICHARD And what was said of the relationship between the vigilantes and these names that you've mentioned, Greyling and Meyer? MR NGWENYA Lulu said they were called and promised R10 000, a kombi and a soccer kit should they get hold of the ringleaders of the comrades. MR RICHARD Now how did it come that you attacked these three vigilantes? When was the decision made to attack? MR NGWENYA As I have explained earlier on that on the 3rd of January we came to an agreement that among the people who were involved in the killing of the comrades, we should try and get hold of some of them and we should do unto them as they did unto us. MR RICHARD This was in June. Now when did you decide that these three particular vigilantes should be attacked? Was it that day, that week? MR NGWENYA We had not necessarily target them, we were coming from Dida Twala's home on that day and on our way we came across Patrick Sithole, the one about whom questions were asked. MR RICHARD And what happened? MR NGWENYA Patrick Sithole knew that we did not see eye to eye and then he ran away and we gave chase. MR RICHARD Now, where did he run to? MR NGWENYA He ran into the place where these other three comrades got injured. MR RICHARD Now were you with anyone, or were others - what were their names? MR NGWENYA Sipo Ngwenya, Johannes Maringa, he's present here and Dida Twala as well as Papa Nkabinde, who has since passed away. MR RICHARD Now what happened at this house where you traced Patrick Sithole to? MR NGWENYA It was a coal yard homestead and a blow to Mr Twala and he started screaming something like: "Here are these people". MR RICHARD What did you and your comrades do? MR NGWENYA We pushed the door open, we were aware that they might be having some forks inside, seeing that they were dealing with coals and I drew my firearm. MR RICHARD Did you use your firearm? MR NGWENYA Yes, I did. MR RICHARD Did you kill anyone? MR NGWENYA We used the firearm, but we understood that that would have been a very serious case, Meyer himself would have come after us and I fired a shot and it actually missed the target, that was deliberate because we didn't know who was behind the door. MR RICHARD Then how did you kill the people in the house? MR NGWENYA On opening fire, they came out and scattered in different directions, that's when the three remained, those are the ones who got injured that day. MR RICHARD Now what did you do to any of them other than with the firearm? Did you stab them? MR NGWENYA They were stabbed, no one was shot. We did not use the firearm. MR RICHARD Did you stab any one of the people that were killed? MR NGWENYA No, because I did not have a knife in my possession except for the gun. MR RICHARD Did you associate yourself with the stabbing that your comrades did? MR NGWENYA That is correct. MR RICHARD Now were you ever arrested for this incident? MR NGWENYA Yes, I was. MR RICHARD Were you ever put on trial and prosecuted? MR NGWENYA Yes, but I was acquitted for all the charges. MR RICHARD Thank you. The next incident, Mabisi Mazizi, were you part of that incident? MR NGWENYA I would like to explain Chairperson. Incidents that I was involved in were those of Lulu and the three gentlemen and Masebuko. I was not present in the other incidents except to say I associated myself with those incidents, following the decision that we had taken previously. MR RICHARD Yes. In that even Chairperson, no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR RICHARD CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Mr Nyawuza, questions? CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR NYAWUZA Mr Ngwenya, if you look at the bundle on page three, the incident the killing of three vigilantes, there's the name of a certain Mzwaike Samson Mhlapo, do you perhaps know that guy? MR NGWENYA That's the person whose name and certain I said I cannot recall. I said he said resides at Morewa Street, the family which owned a business. Yes, I know him. MR NYAWUZA So are we to assume that it's the Bheki that you refer to in your testimony? MR NGWENYA That is correct. MR NYAWUZA Thank you, no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR NYAWUZA CHAIRPERSON Thank you Mr Nyawuza. Ms Mtanga? MS MTANGA I have no question Chairperson. NO QUESTIONS BY MS MTANGA CHAIRPERSON Thank you Ma'am. CHAIRPERSON Panel? ADV BOSMAN I have no questions, thank you Chairperson. ADV SANDI No questions thank you. CHAIRPERSON Re-examination Mr Richard? MR RICHARD No re-examination. NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR RICHARD CHAIRPERSON Yes, Mr Ngwenya, you're excused. Thank you. WITNESS EXCUSED MR RICHARD The next applicant is Mr Mnguni, he is applicant one on the list.