amntrans AMNESTY HEARINGS 2000-10-05 JOHANNESBURG 4 SIPO TIMOTHY MNGUNI AM8076/97 https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=54526&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/2000/201005jn.htm SIPO TIMOTHY MNGUNI (sworn states) MR RICHARD Thank you Chairperson. EXAMINATION BY MR RICHARD Mr Mnguni, you've been present here all morning and you have heard the evidence of the previous applicants. Did you hear and understand what they said? MR MNGUNI Yes. MR RICHARD Did they give a correct and truthful account of their own, yours and your comrades' involvement in the various incidents that they've described? MR MNGUNI Yes. MR RICHARD Is there anything with which you disagree that you'd like to make comment on? MR MNGUNI No. MR RICHARD And for the sake of the record, I think we'll ask you the omnibus question, is it correct or incorrect that you and all your comrades, your co-applicants here today, saw the members and supporters of the sports club known as Easter MG Pirates Soccer Club as opponents of the UDF and supporters of the old apartheid regime? MR MNGUNI That is correct. MR RICHARD And is it also correct that as your co-applicants have said, persons who gave information to the South African Police, co-operated with the police, co-operated with the apartheid councillors were seen as enemies of the struggle and possibly "impimpis"? MR MNGUNI That is correct. MR RICHARD Now and again for the record, you and all your co-applicants were members of the United Democratic Front which supported and aligned itself with the African National Congress? MR MNGUNI That is correct. MR RICHARD Thank you. Now the first incident, that was the killing of Mr Louw. Did you take an active part in the stabbing of Mr Louw? MR MNGUNI Very much so. Very much so. MR RICHARD Were you one of them who stabbed him both when he was in the water and before he ran away and got into the water? MR MNGUNI He was already injured when he got into the water and I realised that he was not properly dead and I came to finish him off? MR RICHARD Now why did you see Mr Louw as an enemy, who had to die. MR MNGUNI They were attacking us. MR RICHARD Did you know them? MR MNGUNI Yes. MR RICHARD Was he a member of the Eastern Pirates Soccer Club? MR MNGUNI Yes, he was a player. MR RICHARD Now next incident and that was the incident where the bus on the N3 freeway was petrol bombed, were you a party to the planning of that incident or its execution? MR MNGUNI Even though I was not present, but I was part of the whole thing. MR RICHARD What was your attitude toward it? MR MNGUNI I accepted it because they were attacking us as well. MR RICHARD And did you associate yourself with it? MR MNGUNI That is correct. MR RICHARD Now the third incident and that was the killing of a Mr Masebuko by the previous applicant, Sipo Ngwenya, were you involved in that incident in person? MR MNGUNI Even though I was not present, yes, I was involved in so far as what they did, I associated myself, even though I was not present. MR RICHARD Did you know it was going to happen before it happened? MR MNGUNI The people were killing us in such a way that it was possible for us to engage in fighting and killing them ultimately in the event of us coming across them. ADV BOSMAN Were you present at the meeting on the 3rd of January where the decision was taken that the members of the team and the supporters of the team should be attacked when you came across them? MR MNGUNI Yes, I was present. MR RICHARD I'll proceed to the fourth incident and that was the killing of the three vigilantes, that's Mhlapo, Twala and Dlamini. Now were you personally involved in that incident? MR MNGUNI Even though I was not personally involved, but yes, I associated myself with the incident. MR RICHARD Did you know that it was going to happen in advance? MR MNGUNI I knew that was bound to happen. MR RICHARD Now the fifth and sixth incidents, that's the killing of Mabisi Mazizi and the injury by shooting by Spundla Mpila, were you involved in the execution of either of those attacks? MR MNGUNI I was not involved, but had I had a chance, I would have definitely got involved. MR RICHARD And you associated yourself with the two attacks? MR MNGUNI Yes. MR RICHARD Now as a matter of form, is it not true that in your case, as in the cases of your co-applicants, no one sat down and explained to you how to fill in an application for amnesty form? MR MNGUNI It was publicised in the newspapers in 1994 to the fact that everybody who participated in these incidents should co-operate with the TRC. That is the reason why we are here today. MR RICHARD Did anyone assist you in completing the form, or did you just do the best you could on your own with your comrades? MR MNGUNI I completed the application form on my own, with the assistance of course of my fellow brothers. MR RICHARD Now when you completed the form, was it your intention to apply for amnesty for everything that you and your comrades did? MR MNGUNI That is correct. MR RICHARD No further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR RICHARD CHAIRPERSON Thank you Sir. Mr Nyawuza. MR NYAWUZA No questions. NO QUESTIONS BY MR NYAWUZA CHAIRPERSON Thank you. CHAIRPERSON Ms Mtanga. MS MTANGA No questions Chairperson. NO QUESTIONS BY MS MTANGA CHAIRPERSON Thank you very much. Panel? ADV BOSMAN One question thank you. Mr Mnguni, if you turn to page 35 of the bundle you'll see your application form. There you filled in that you were an office bearer of the UDF, can you just explain to us what office bearer you were? MR MNGUNI The position pertained to the fact that we were exchanging ideas with fellow comrades. You see we had kangaroo courts in the township and we were thus involved in sharing ideas pertaining to all of these matters. ADV BOSMAN I notice that all your co-applicants have filled out that they were office bearers. Can you explain that. Did you discuss this office bearer amongst yourselves, this idea of an office bearer? MR MNGUNI We were just exchanging ideas about everything, also with regard to the word office bearer. ADV BOSMAN Let me put it in a different way. Did you regard your fellow applicants as office bearers of the UDF? MR MNGUNI Yes, that's how I perceived them. ADV BOSMAN And was that for the same reason that you regarded yourself as an office bearer? MR MNGUNI Correct. CHAIRPERSON Mr Richard, any re-examination? MR RICHARD Very few questions. RE-EXAMINATION BY MR RICHARD In the UDF in Standerton where you were at the time, of the six of you here in court, who was senior, sorry six before the Amnesty Committee not court? MR MNGUNI We were on equal par. Anybody who showed enthusiasm would come forward but we were basically all equal. MR RICHARD Did anyone have the right to give the rest of you an order which you had to carry out? MR MNGUNI No, nobody had such a right, because we could see ourselves anything and everything that was happening in the township. MR RICHARD When you were confronted with a question that you had to decide on, how did you go about making that decision? Did you all meet and come to an agreement, or did just one person decide what the others should do? MR MNGUNI We would meet and come up with a decision. MR RICHARD Thank you. No further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR RICHARD CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Mr Mnguni, you're excused, thank you. Who's next? MR MNGUNI Before vacating the seat I would like to explain something. In so far as Richard Twala is concerned and this 13 year old boy called Mati, I was present on that day. Actually I was employed, but I, yes I would go to the township regularly and these other comrades were not there and the MG members came to me, they came after me and I ran away and ran into a house next to Mati's house and they discovered I was there and I fled on and around 7 o'clock I was in a house. Disco, Aubrey Mabola, Mashaba, Sanjo and Louw, Kabeshe, Spundla, Banya and Dan and Jacob Twala and Mavimba and Magaks and Mdudusi, Kaizer and Doctor, these are the people that I saw on the day when Richard died, but I was inside the house and they came, these people that I've just mentioned, they were looking for Dida Twala and one of our comrades did not open the door and they started asking: "Why are you closing the door when you are not fighting?" And he opened the door and stood behind the door. That's when I saw all of these people who killed Richard Twala. CHAIRPERSON Thank you Mr Mnguni, you're excused. WITNESS EXCUSED CHAIRPERSON Who's the next applicant? MR RICHARD ...(indistinct) CHAIRPERSON Yes.