amntrans AMNESTY HEARINGS 2000-10-06 JOHANNESBURG 5 MOLEFE MICHAEL SELEPE AM7154/97 https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=54532&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/2000/201006jn.htm CHAIRPERSON Yes. Well the next matter on the roll would then be the amnesty application of Molefe Michael Selepe, the reference number is AM7154/97. I'm going to give an opportunity to the legal representatives to put themselves on record on behalf of the applicant. Mr Knopp, you can just put yourself on record, just to start with. MR KNOPP Thank you Mr Chairperson. The name is Knopp, Advocate initials H A, I shall be representing the applicant Molefe Michael Selepe in this application. CHAIRPERSON Thank you Mr Knopp. ...(indistinct) Yes, Mr Knopp, is there anything else you want to put on record or do you want your client to take the oath and proceed with his testimony? MR KNOPP He can take the oath. CHAIRPERSON Very well, we shall do that. MOLEFE MICHAEL SELEPE (sworn states) CHAIRPERSON Yes Mr Knopp. EXAMINATION BY MR KNOPP Thank you Mr Chairperson. Mr Selepe you are the applicant in this matter? MR SELEPE That is correct. MR KNOPP How old are you now? MR SELEPE I'm 35 years old. MR KNOPP And are you presently serving out a sentence in a prison? MR SELEPE That is correct. MR KNOPP Which prison is that? MR SELEPE ...(indistinct) Maximum Prison. MR KNOPP Is that in Cullinan area? MR SELEPE That is correct. MR KNOPP And were you convicted and sentenced in connection with that thing in 1992 in the Boksburg Regional Court? MR SELEPE Yes, that is correct, pertaining to a 1992 incident, or incidents. MR KNOPP And you effective total sentence was 91 years. MR SELEPE That is correct. MR KNOPP Those convictions were inter alia two counts of murder, four counts of robbery and four counts of escape. INTERPRETER May you please repeat. MR KNOPP Two counts of murder, four counts of robber and four counts of escape. MR SELEPE That is correct. MR KNOPP Is it also correct that this is not the first time that you have appeared before the Amnesty Committee of the TRC for amnesty application? MR SELEPE That is correct. MR KNOPP You appeared before another tribunal consisting of Judges Pillay, de Jager and Motata. MR SELEPE Correct. MR KNOPP And in that application you applied for amnesty concerning what is known as the Dawn Park incident for October 1992 and secondly the Kliprivier Police Station incident about 1993. MR SELEPE That is correct. MR KNOPP Chairperson I refer the Tribunal to the bundle, pages 12 to 20 which contains the decision of that amnesty application, so in that application, according to the decision, you were granted amnesty concerning these incidents? MR SELEPE Yes, I was granted amnesty. MR KNOPP So today's application concerns an incident during July 1993, an attack on the occupants of a certain house on the East Rand. MR SELEPE That is correct. MR KNOPP I forgot to canvass with you, the decision to grant you amnesty in that previous amnesty application, that will affect your term of imprisonment that you are serving now or reduce that term, is that correct? Because some of those convictions of murder and robber are part of this amnesty application? MR SELEPE Yes, that is correct, but not the one that I'm appearing for today. MR KNOPP Just some background. Were you a member of the ANC? MR SELEPE Correct. MR KNOPP When did you become a member? MR SELEPE From the unbanning of the ANC and before that I was a member of the UDF. MR KNOPP What does UDF stand for? MR SELEPE United Democratic Front. MR KNOPP And were you involved at all in the so-called SDUs, Self Defence Units? MR SELEPE Yes, I was a Commander of the SDUs. MR KNOPP Did you receive any training as a member of Commander of the SDU? MR SELEPE Not at all. MR KNOPP For which area were you Commander? MR SELEPE At Slovo Section. MR KNOPP Is that on the East Rand? MR SELEPE Thokoza, East Rand, yes. MR KNOPP Now during that time on the East Rand, were there any problems between the Inkatha Freedom Party Members and the ANC members and the SDU? CHAIRPERSON Yes from 1990 there were problems of conflict between the IFP and the ANC members. MR KNOPP Was this peaceful conflict, or a violent conflict? CHAIRPERSON There was conflict, political conflict. MR KNOPP Was there violence involved, were people injured? CHAIRPERSON Correct. MR KNOPP Now would you relate to the Tribunal what happened in July 1993. MR SELEPE That was the day when I attacked the IFP base at Nkosi Street in Thokoza, it was during the day around 12 o'clock. We had identified a particular house as being occupied by the IFP in the section. The owner of the house was present but there were also other people from the hostel, people who were using the house as their base and they would launch their attacks from the house in the evenings and during the day our observation noted that the house was always locked and the gates locked, with curtains drawn. You would not see anybody and because we had already gathered information about the presence of these people, I instructed that it be attacked with a view to threatening them and getting them to move out. I was accompanied by other SDU members, three of them and we came across another fourth SDU member along the way whose name was Sikumbuso. There was Fanisa Nedisi and Nati and when we arrived, I opened the gate, not realising that a chain had been wrapped around the gate and upon attempting to open it, it cracked, making noise and I decided to jump, climbed onto a steel fence and as I was doing that, I could see curtains moving inside the house and I concluded that they heard what was happening. As I was climbing the steel fence, that is when I heard gun shots being fired from inside the house towards our direction. That's when I fell down. I fell into the yard and my fellow comrades returned fire into the windows from where we were being shot and in the process I tried to take cover and I can say we changed fire for some few minutes until such time as I could secure cover. I also had a pistol and I, in the process, fled to the next-door house. I was now safe and the gunfire stopped. We then left because we knew that the police and soldiers would soon be on the scene because they had heard the gunfire. I then took the firearms and stopped them. I then went to the shop. As I was inside the shop, one lady who was a neighbour came to me and said to me: "Molefe, do not go back home because there are soldiers and the police looking for you" and I did as advised, I hung around at the shop. I went to a friend whose home was at the shop area and I would go back home later. I think it was after three hours or so, I went back home and I was to go past the very same shop where I found this lady. I saw a police van coming from the opposite, or the direction of the shop and because I was being sought by the police for a long time, I got into the shop and I heard the vehicle stopping in front of the shop and they came in. That is when they pointed firearms at me, declaring that I was now under arrest and I resisted because I wanted to know on what charges and they didn't and they locked me in the van and they took some of my things, things like my watch. I removed my watch, my ring and bracelet and put them in my pocket. They searched me and confiscated these things and when I got inside the van, I then realised that the van was driving towards the place where we had just launched an attack. When we got there, there were now many people milling around and there were also IFP leadership among these people and Mr Mjave, whom I knew, the owner of the house if I'm not mistaken, came out and the opened the van on the side and as they did so, they asked him as to whether this is the person for identification purposes and he responded in the positive and we then drove to the police station through Khumalo Street. There was this hostel called Katuza and when we got there, we found many IFP members. These people stopped the police van and the police got out, that is the police who had arrested me and there was a Mr Buthelezi who was driving this police vehicle and he spoke to the hostel dwellers, whom we regarded as IFP members and he said to them: "Zulu, we have now captured Molefe, whom we have been looking for". We were just next to the gate and these people said: "Would you please not arrest him, just hand him over to us". The sides of the van were open. I remember one of them put through the fence, something that was very sharp, a sharp object that injured me on the leg. There were Peace Committee members from the township and they came to the place where this throng of people was milling around and as the Peace Committee members came, I shouted from inside the van, asking for help because I was now aware that these people were forcing the police to hand over to them and the Peace Committee members inquired from the police as to why were they bringing me to the hostel, instead of arresting me. I don't know how they responded and after that the Peace Committee vehicle escorted me to Thokoza police station. You see, the police station was at the time such that we did not hold it in confidence because we viewed the police as part who colluded, we regarded the police as part of the IFP. The IFP members had followed the vehicle to the police station and when they arrived there, they surrounded the police station. I realised that I was no longer safe, because the IFP leadership was also present there. I then requested to speak to the Station Commander Mr Funani. I then said to Mr Funani that he should transfer me to the nearest police station and it was obvious that I was no longer safe because there were also IFP members inside the police station who were busy hurling insults at me. As I was still being held at the waiting cells, I was thereafter called by Mr Funani, who gave me permission to call an attorney or a relative. After a while, the members of the Stability Unit arrived and I was escorted to a police station nearby, the Katlehong police station. This incident happened on a Thursday and I was kept there until the following Monday, on which day I went to Court. When I had been visited during the weekend, the police had informed my family that I would be taken to Germiston, however, on Monday I was taken to the Alberton Court, where I was refused bail. I thereafter went to the Boksburg police prison. On the second occasion I went to Court and bail was refused again. On that occasion, I had a legal representative so that when we went to Court, the Court granted bail. MR KNOPP Mr Selepe, although you were armed at the time of the incident with a firearm, did you fire any shots? MR SELEPE There was an exchange of gunfire. MR KNOPP Yes, but the question is, did you yourself personally fire any shots at the house? MR SELEPE I personally did not fire any shots, although I had a firearm in my possession. The comrades who were shooting towards the house, were doing so to protect me, so that I could take cover. MR KNOPP Were those comrades under your command in this attack? MR SELEPE That's correct. MR KNOPP Mr Selepe, as far as you are aware, were any of the occupants of that house either killed or injured as a result of the shots? MR SELEPE As far as I'm aware, I did not witness any person who was injured. That is why, when they put a charge of attempted murder, I did not understand, I had first thought that they would charge me with malicious damage to property. MR KNOPP In that regard, you've never stood trial for this instant? MR SELEPE No, I was never prosecuted. MR KNOPP Was any part of the house damaged from these shots? MR SELEPE I assume that there were some parts that were damaged, it was ...(indistinct) that he fired towards it. MR KNOPP Such as what, the windows? MR SELEPE It is possible that the windows were broken. MR KNOPP Mr Selepe, the firearm and ammunition of which you were in possession that day, was that firearm and ammunition licensed or not? MR SELEPE No, the firearms and ammunition were illegal. MR KNOPP Thank you Mr Chairperson. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR KNOP CHAIRPERSON Thank you Mr Knopp. Just give us an idea of the types of firearms that were in your possession on that day. MR SELEPE On that day, I had a 9 mm Beretta. CHAIRPERSON Beretta Pistol? MR SELEPE Yes. CHAIRPERSON What else? MR SELEPE The other SDU members had two AK47s and one pump gun. CHAIRPERSON ...(indistinct) What else or was that all? MR SELEPE That is correct, we had four firearms in total. CHAIRPERSON Was this the arms of the SDU? MR SELEPE That's correct. CHAIRPERSON Yes thank you. Ms Mtanga, any questions? MS MTANGA I have a few questions Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Yes. CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS MTANGA Mr Selepe, you've testified that the reason that you attacked this house, its because you believed it was used as an IFP base, is that correct? MR SELEPE That's correct. MS MTANGA Do you have any knowledge as to who was the owner of the house, or who were the occupants of the house? MR SELEPE I was a leader in the civic association and the one person who regularly attended such meetings of that organisation was Mr Mtshali. MS MTANGA Did Mr Mtshali hold any position with you in the IFP? If so, what position did he hold? MR SELEPE I do not have knowledge thereof. MS MTANGA The house that you attacked, can you give us the address where this took place? The house that you attacked, where was it located? What is the address? MR SELEPE It's on Nkosi Street, I am not certain of the house number. MS MTANGA And during the trial, did you hear if Mr Mtshali was injured or any person in the house was injured? MR SELEPE I did not get to hear of such information. As far as I'm aware, no one was injured. MS MTANGA Did you see Mr Ntjaie at your trial or do you know if he attended the trial? MR SELEPE When I went to Court on the first occasion, I saw him there. On the second occasion he was also present. MS MTANGA I have no further questions, Chairperson. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS MTANGA CHAIRPERSON Thank you Ms Mtanga. Has the Panel got any questions? ADV SANDI Just one question. Do you by any chance know the full names of Mr Mtshali? MR SELEPE No, I just know him as Mr Mtshali. ADV SANDI And those firearms, where did you get them from? MR SELEPE We used to get them through various means. Some were bought from contributions made by the Community. ADV SANDI But they belonged to the SDUs? MR SELEPE Yes, they did. ADV BOSMAN Mr Selepe, what information did you have that this was an IFP base? MR SELEPE We received information on three occasions to the effect that that was an IFP base. On the first occasion a child was shot at Tshisko Tuck Shop. The owner of that Tuck Shop had refused to donate R50 towards the purchase of firearms for the IFP. ADV BOSMAN We don't need to go into all the detail. That's the one piece of information and the second, you said you had three bits of information, the second one? MR SELEPE On the second occasion, some IFP members wanted to attack me whilst I was at the Tuck Shop and they fetched their firearms from Mr Mtshali's home. ADV BOSMAN Right, and the third? MR SELEPE That was on the occasion when they had awaited me at my home and when I came out, they fled towards Mr Mtshali's home. ADV BOSMAN Now the day you went there for the attack, did you know that there would be shooting, or did you foresee there would be shooting? MR SELEPE When we went there, I did expect that there might be shooting because I was aware that the occupants of the house were also armed. ADV BOSMAN Did you think that maybe someone would get killed in this shooting? MR SELEPE The intention was to threaten them to drive them away from the house. ADV BOSMAN Mr Selepe, just listen to my question. We understand you said you went there to attack the house to scare these people to warn them, but you had firearms. Did you think someone might get killed in the shooting? If there was shooting, did you foresee that someone may be killed? MR SELEPE Yes, I did expect it. ADV BOSMAN So you understand now why you were charged with attempted murder. MR SELEPE Yes. ADV BOSMAN Thank you. CHAIRPERSON Re-examination Mr Knopp, if any. MR KNOPP No re-examination Mr Chairperson. NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR KNOPP CHAIRPERSON Mr Selepe, you're excused thank you. WITNESS EXCUSED CHAIRPERSON Is that the case of the applicant? MR KNOPP That is the case for the applicant. CHAIRPERSON Yes. Any evidence Ms Mtanga? MS MTANGA Chairperson, I have no evidence but I would like to place on record the details of the victim that we have. CHAIRPERSON Please. MS MTANGA According to the police docket, his name is Zeblon Mtshali. The last known address of the victim is 233 Dube Street, Penduka Section, Thokoza. CHAIRPERSON Yes. MS MTANGA That is all Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Thank you Ma'am. Mr Knopp? MR KNOPP IN ARGUMENT Mr Chairperson, I would submit firstly that the application does comply with the technical requirements of Act 34 of 1995. Secondly I would submit respectfully that the acts or offences were those associated with a definite political motive and thirdly, I would submit respectfully that the applicant has made full disclosure of all the relevant facts in the case. I would therefore request that the Tribunal grant the applicant amnesty in this matter. CHAIRPERSON For attempted murder? MR KNOPP Attempted murder. CHAIRPERSON Is it unlawful possession of firearms and ammunition? MR KNOPP Yes, firearms and ammunition. CHAIRPERSON And malicious injury to property? MR KNOPP Malicious injury to property. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Ms Mtanga? MS MTANGA Chairperson I have no submissions to make. I would like to leave this matter in your hands. NO ARGUMENT BY MS MTANGA CHAIRPERSON Yes. Thank you very much. That concludes the formalities in regard to this matter. The Panel will consider the application and the evidence and the submissions and will endeavour to produce a decision in this matter as soon as the circumstances permit, but presently, the decision in this matter will be reserved and Mr Knopp, if you don't have any other commitments before us, then we will excuse you and thank you for your assistance this week. MR KNOPP Thank you Mr Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Yes, Ms Mtanga? MS MTANGA Chairperson, our next matter is the application of Mr Nontlantane. Mr Buka Mohalaba is appearing for Mr Nontlantane. I don't see both of them here. I'm not sure if he has arrived or not, because he's the person that we've been waiting for. CHAIRPERSON Do you want us just to stand down for a few minutes, just to ascertain what's going on? CHAIRPERSON Yes. We shall do that. We'll stand down. COMMITTEE ADJOURNS