amntrans AMNESTY HEARINGS 2000-10-06 JOHANNESBURG 5 THEMBA NONTLANTANE AM6226/97 https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=54533&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/2000/201006jn.htm ON RESUMPTION CHAIRPERSON The next matter on the role is the amnesty application of Temba Nontlantane, Amnesty Reference AM6226/97. The Panel and the Leader of Evidence are the same. Mr Mohlaba, do you just want to put yourself on record for the applicant? MR MOHLABA Thank you Chairperson, my name is Buka Mohlaba. I'm appearing for the applicant. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Do you want to proceed with the evidence? Do you want your client to be sworn in? MR MOHLABA Please Chairperson. THEMBA NONTLANTANE (sworn states) CHAIRPERSON Yes, Mr Mohlaba. MR MOHLABA Thank you Chairperson. EXAMINATION BY MR MOHLABA Mr Nontlantane, you are the applicant in this matter and did you, during the period 1990/1991 belong to any political organisation? MR NONTLANTANE Yes, that is correct. MR MOHLABA Can you tell us which organisation was that? MR NONTLANTANE African National Congress. MR MOHLABA Did you occupy any position with the African National Congress? MR NONTLANTANE Yes, I was the Regional Organiser. MR MOHLABA Did you undergo any military training? MR NONTLANTANE Yes, that is correct. MR MOHLABA Did you belong to the military wing of the African National Congress? MR NONTLANTANE Yes, that is correct. MR MOHLABA Can you explain to the Committee when you joined - you became a member of the Umkhonto weSizwe and where did you require your training, undergo your training? MR NONTLANTANE I joined in March 1985 in Angola. We were then trained. I was a Section Commander and I was then a Platoon Commander. In 1986 I was sent to Cuba and I was trained there. I came back. When I came back from Cuba, I went back to the Labour Movement and I worked in Zimbabwe and then Umkhonto weSizwe requested me to come back and then I came back in 1990. MR MOHLABA When you came back in 1990, where were you posted to? MR NONTLANTANE When I came back I was sent to the Northern Transvaal, but I was staying here in Johannesburg and I was told the person to contact when I was inside the country. MR MOHLABA Can you tell us who the person was? MR NONTLANTANE Yes, it was Thebogo. MR MOHLABA And where was this Thebogo based? MR NONTLANTANE Thebogo was also in the Transvaal because we met here in Johannesburg. MR MOHLABA Were you, at a certain stage, posted to Mamelodi in Pretoria? MR NONTLANTANE According to our demarcation, Northern Transvaal included Johannesburg and Pretoria, so we'd go to Pretoria sometimes. MR MOHLABA Do you know of an askari with a pseudonym Stanford, or did you ever hear of him? MR NONTLANTANE Stanward, yes I know him. MR MOHLABA And you are applying for an amnesty here for conspiring to kill this askari person, is that correct? MR NONTLANTANE Yes, that is correct. MR MOHLABA Can you explain to this Committee how you planned this, how you conspired, how you sat down and planned around eliminating this askari person and who was involved? Just explain as widely as possible. MR NONTLANTANE Yes, I was Thebogo in Pretoria in Mamelodi when we were in the garage. So when we stopped next to the garage, another car stopped next to us and we tried- this guy was Stanward in the car. We tried to talk to him and then we drove away. After that, because we were with him in Angola, we discussed this with Thebogo and we could see that our lives were in danger, it's either we were going to be arrested or killed by the police at that time, so we decided that we should be safe and we should try to come up with a plan to kill him. Thebogo said that he would arrange somebody to come and help us and he would train that person to come and assist us. I was staying in Johannesburg at the time and he came, Thebogo came on one occasion with this man, that was the first time I saw this guy. We trained this man, we trained him on how to use the Makarov and we told him to shoot and kill Stanward. After some few weeks, Thebogo came back again here in Johannesburg and he said that that man tried to kill Stanward, but he could not kill him, but he was injured and he said that this man was arrested, so I left, I went back to the Transkei at home after that. MR MOHLABA And how did you know that Stanward was an askari? MR NONTLANTANE When I came from Harare, Comrade Chris Hani told me that Stanward defected from the organisation, so we should be careful, we should watch out for those guys when we arrived here. MR MOHLABA Do you have anything to add with regard to this incident? MR NONTLANTANE No, there's nothing else, except that I heard that he was injured. He did not die and after that I decided to run away. When I came back from the Transkei, I was arrested, but this incident was never mentioned. I was just asked about the training of this guy by the police. MR MOHLABA Thank you Chairperson, that will be the evidence-in-chief. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MOHLABA CHAIRPERSON Thank you Mr Mohlaba. At about what date roughly was this attempt made on the life of Stanward, this askari? MR NONTLANTANE It was towards the end of November 1990, but I can't remember the date. CHAIRPERSON And where did the attempt happen? MR NONTLANTANE According to the report I got it was in the township, in Mamelodi. CHAIRPERSON And what was the nature of the attack upon this Stanward? What kind of weapon was used? MR NONTLANTANE As we gave this man a Makarov and a grenade, I think he used those weapons. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Yes, Ms Mtanga. MS MTANGA Thank you Chairperson. CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS MTANGA Mr Nontlandane, in which year did you join the ANC? MR NONTLANTANE Officially it was in 1985, but I was working underground from 1980. MS MTANGA Where did you join, in 1985, where did you join the ANC? MR NONTLANTANE In Botswana, Gaborone. MS MTANGA When did you leave the country? MR NONTLANTANE Late 1984. MS MTANGA You also mentioned that you were the Regional Organiser for the MK. In which region were you the organiser? Sorry, Regional Organiser for the ANC, in which region was that? MR NONTLANTANE I'm the Regional Organiser now at Lusikisiki Region. MS MTANGA You mentioned that your Commander was Thebogo. Were there other people who were members of the unit and if so, what were their names? MR NONTLANTANE We just came back to the country so there were no other people he came with. MS MTANGA So was it just yourself and Thebogo? MR NONTLANTANE Yes, it was myself and Thebogo at that time. MS MTANGA Is there anyone you know who would help us get full details of this Thebogo, his full particulars? MR NONTLANTANE I am not sure because I do not know his real name, but he was from Pretoria, that was his pseudonym, Thebogo, so I do not know. MS MTANGA You mentioned that you were at some point questioned by the police about the attack on Stanward. When were you questioned about this incident? MR NONTLANTANE I said the police did not ask me about this attack, but they asked me about the training of this man that attacked Stanward. They did not ask me questions about this attack. MS MTANGA When they asked you about the training that you gave to Stanward, did they mention anything - did they have knowledge or did they link you to the attack on Stanward? Did they have information that linked you to Stanward? MR NONTLANTANE They did not say, but they just said that I was arrested because I came in this country illegally and I trained this person. MS MTANGA Which police questioned you on this information? Where were the police coming from? MR NONTLANTANE In Pretoria. MS MTANGA I have no further questions, Chairperson. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS MTANGA CHAIRPERSON Thank you Ma'am. Has the Panel got any questions? ADV SANDI Just one. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. ADV SANDI Do you know the name of that askari, Stanward, his full names? MR NONTLANTANE No, I don't. ADV SANDI And the young man whom you trained? MR NONTLANTANE I do not know his name. ADV SANDI Thank you Sir. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. ADV BOSMAN Just one question Mr Nontlantane. Are you South African? MR NONTLANTANE Yes. ADV BOSMAN So this allegation of you being illegal, was that sorted out and dropped afterwards? MR NONTLANTANE Yes, I can say so, because I did not come back through the border gates, I jumped the fence when I came back to South Africa. ADV BOSMAN So it was that it was illegal entry, not that you are an illegal person in South Africa? MR NONTLANTANE yes. ADV BOSMAN Thank you. CHAIRPERSON Mr Mohlala, any re-examination? MR MOHLABA None, Chairperson. NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR MOHLABA CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Yes, Mr Nontlantane, you're excused. Thank you. WITNESS EXCUSED CHAIRPERSON Is that the case for the applicant? MR MOHLABA That's the case for the applicant, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Ms Mtanga? MS MTANGA I have no evidence to lead, Chairperson, thank you. CHAIRPERSON Mr Mohlaba, submissions? MR MOHLABA IN ARGUMENT Chairperson, the facts speak for themselves. I don't have any submissions, except to ask for amnesty to be granted to the applicant. ADV SANDI But the facts never speak for themselves, Mr Mohlaba, unless you give meaning to facts. MR MOHLABA Chairperson, unless the Committee wants to hear me on a specific thing, I'll want to submit that there are substantial facts which renders the applicant to qualify for amnesty. CHAIRPERSON According to the speech of the facts, what are the offences that we must give him amnesty for? MR MOHLABA Chairperson, amnesty needs to be granted, I submit, for conspiracy to commit murder. CHAIRPERSON Conspiracy to commit murder. What else? MR MOHLABA And unlawful possession of arms and ammunition. CHAIRPERSON Is it a Makarov and a hand grenade? MR MOHLABA And hand grenade Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Was there - there seems to have been an attempted killing here, an attempted murder. MR MOHLABA Yes, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Where does that feature? Does it also come in, are you asking for amnesty for that as well? MR MOHLABA For attempted murder as well. Thank you Chair. CHAIRPERSON Yes. Yes, thank you, Mr Mohlaba. Ms Mtanga, we are told the facts speak for themselves, but as my Colleague rightfully points out, we've never heard them speaking, perhaps you can enlighten us on that. MS MTANGA Chairperson, I have no submissions to make. I agree with my Colleague that the facts in this matter happen to speak for themselves. NO ARGUMENT BY MS MTANGA CHAIRPERSON Yes, well we're never too old to learn. Yes well, you have consensus Mr Mohlaba, so I assume you don't want to say anything further. MR MOHLABA Certainly, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Yes. Yes well thank you very much. The Committee will take time to prepare a decision in the matter. It will be a decision of the Panel. I won't take it any further than that. We'll do it as quickly as we can and we'll notify you once it's ready, so the decision is reserved. Mr Mohlaba, you still have the other matter? MR MOHLABA Chairperson, I have another matter, but it will appear that the applicant is not here. We're still trying to see if we can locate him, so I ask this matter to stand down. CHAIRPERSON Certainly. I was told that there are attempts on the part of the employer of that applicant, so we'll await the outcome of those endeavours and we will stand down until you inform us. So we'll stand down. COMMITTEE ADJOURNS