amntrans AMNESTY HEARINGS 2000-10-10 JOHANNESBURG 1 LESIZI MICHAEL JANTJIE AM7107/97 https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=54540&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/2000/201010jb.htm CHAIRPERSON Good morning everybody. I apologise to everybody, the intention was to start at ten, but I had commitments this morning which were very important and I had to attend to. I apologise to everybody for having taken your time. Today, which is the 10th of October 2000, we would hear the applications of Antonie Jagga, application number AM7106/97, Lesizi Michael Jantjie, application number AM7107/97, Colin Anthony Peckinham Robertshaw, amnesty number 7163/97, and Dyele Daniel Thulo, application number AM7715/97. My name is Motata, I would be chairing this hearing. I would request my Panel Members to do likewise. MR LAX Thank you, Chairperson. Ilan Lax, L-a-x, on record, Member of the Amnesty Committee. MR SIBANYONI For the record, my name is JB Sibanyoni, I'm a Member of the Amnesty Committee. CHAIRPERSON Thank you, gentlemen. May I request the legal representatives to place themselves on record. MR VISSER May it please you, Chairperson and Members of the Committee. Louis Visser, I'm instructed by Wagener Muller. We appear for all four the applicants before you, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Thank you, Mr Visser. MR KOOPEDI Thank you, Chairperson. My name is Brian Koopedi, I appear in this matter on behalf of the victims. Chairperson, I wish to state at this point that I'm actually standing in for Adv Malindi, whom I believe will join us as soon as circumstances permit it. Thank you. CHAIRPERSON May I, whilst you are still at it, Mr Koopedi, ask who the victims are you are appearing for? MR KOOPEDI If it will suffice, Chairperson, I would refer to them as the family of, and not necessarily give you every individual's name. CHAIRPERSON Okay, give us the family. MR KOOPEDI It is the family of Betty Boom, the family of Nomasonto Mashiya, the family of Tex Sejanamane, and lastly, the family of Mbulelo Ngono. CHAIRPERSON Bok? MR KOOPEDI N-g-o-n-o. CHAIRPERSON My I just alert you to this problem that often surfaces, that when victims are referred to the Committee on Reparation and Rehabilitation, normally the want the closest person, it won't just be a wide spectrum. The problem is actually more prominent in that we are at the twilight of our existence, that they don't have the capacity to contact each and every member and see who is the closest. I suppose you can, just whilst we are busy with that, think along those lines and see how we can solve that problem. MR KOOPEDI I take that point, Chairperson, and perhaps may I at this stage make this undertaking that we will draw up a list of these relatives and state the type of relationship, the right type of relationship they had with any of the four people mentioned. Shall that assist? CHAIRPERSON We shall be indebted to you. MR KOOPEDI Thank you, Chairperson, I'll do that. CHAIRPERSON Anybody from the Committee? MR MAPOMA Chairperson, for the record, my name is Zuko Mapoma, I am the Leader of Evidence for the Amnesty Committee. CHAIRPERSON Thank you, Mr Mapoma. Mr Visser, before we commence, may I remind the audience that you would benefit from the translation in Afrikaans, which would be channel 1, English would be channel 2, Sotho, channel 3, Zulu, channel 4 and Xhosa, channel 5. And may I also request everybody present that please, those are in possession of mobile phones, switch them off because they interfere with the sound system, as you can see the engineer sitting over there, he normally complains to me. Please let's comply with that. Mr Visser, is there anything you want to place on record before you call one of your applicants? MR VISSER Chairperson, yes indeed. I must place on record that one of the applicants, Mr Thulo, was taken ill. We were informed of this development only yesterday and the moment we were so informed, we immediately took the liberty of making telephonic contact with yourself to alert you to the problem that he might not be here, although we didn't have fuller information at the time. We thereafter, through my attorney, established that he will not be able to attend these hearings during the course of this week. We asked for a medical certificate to be forwarded to us. I've got one in my possession which I would like to hand to you, from which, Chairperson, it would appear that Mr Thulo suffers from sinus pharyngitis and uncontrolled diabetes and he is apparently under doctor's care until the 12th, Chairperson, if I'm not mistaken, that would be Thursday, and consequently there seems to be little chance of him being here. I'm told that he is in bed and he's not allowed to get out of bed. That being the case, Chairperson, we, in my respectful submission, would have one of three options. The one would be to postpone the whole hearing until Mr Thulo has recuperated and is able to attend. Alternatively, to continue with the hearings and then there are two scenarios which could considered. One, that at the end of the evidence of the witnesses who are present, that the matter then be postponed, or alternatively, as has occurred in some other amnesty applications where the evidence was sufficient to cover also the position of an absent applicant, that the amnesty application was then dealt with on the basis, without his evidence, on the basis of the evidence of the others. Obviously there might be victims who might feel that they want to make representations in that regard, understandable, that they would want to see all the persons present. But from the point of view of a pragmatic approach, Chairperson, trying to solve the problem facing us, we would submit that we should continue at this stage with the three applicants that are here. It is a hardship for them to come up to Pretoria, or wherever, and they would like to get it behind them, and that we make the decision as to whether the matter should be postponed part-heard later. That's all I have to place on record at this stage. CHAIRPERSON Thank you, Mr Visser. Mr Koopedi, anything? MR KOOPEDI Thank you, Chairperson. What I would say on behalf of the victims, I believe it would be prudent to proceed with this matter in the absence of the fourth applicant, hoping that we would cover some ground with the applicants that are here and depending on their evidence, my feeling is that we might then want to postpone the matter for a further hearing, when the fourth applicant will be well enough to attend that hearing. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Mr Mapoma. MR MAPOMA Chairperson, I agree with the proposal that we proceed with the applicants who are available and get their evidence to a finish and then take it from there. CHAIRPERSON Thank you, Mr Mapoma. We shall then proceed with this hearing and hear the evidence of the three applicants who are present today. And should it arise, and I wish at some stage, Mr Koopedi, you should advise the victims that should it transpire that their evidence covers most of the aspects, or all of the aspects which Mr Thulo would have testified about, we shall review the position then and end this hearing, and should a need arise that Mr Thulo should also be heard, we shall then postpone to a date which would be suitable to everybody. And I would, in that regard, contact our offices that should we require to hear Mr Thulo, these proceedings to be held in Bloemfontein, which is nearest to Mr Thulo, because we should also be thinking about his health and not make him travel unnecessarily, but that would arise should we at the conclusion of this hearing, come to that decision. Thank you very much, Mr Visser. MR VISSER As it pleases the Panel, Chairperson. Chairperson, then it seems that the way is clear for me to call the first witness and I would call Mr Jantjie to give evidence. His evidence will appear in your bundle of documents, from page 8 onwards, and I will refer you more fully to that in a moment. Mr Jantjie prefers to address you in Sotho, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. MR VISSER He has no objection to taking the oath. CHAIRPERSON Okay. LESIZI MICHAEL JANTJIE (sworn states) CHAIRPERSON Please be seated. You may proceed, Mr Visser. EXAMINATION BY MR VISSER Thank you, Chairperson. Mr Jantjie, you are an applicant in this matter and you are applying for amnesty for your participation in the incidents to which you will now testify, is that correct? MR JANTJIE That is correct, Chair. MR VISSER You signed and filed an amnesty application with the Amnesty Committee, and that appears at page 8 and it runs up to page 16, is that correct? MR JANTJIE That is correct. MR VISSER Do you confirm the truthfulness and the correctness of the information contained in the amnesty application which I just referred to, subject to the evidence which you will give today? MR JANTJIE That is correct, Chairperson. MR VISSER Chairperson, I'm not sure whether it is translated to the witness in English or in Afrikaans ... CHAIRPERSON To Mr Jantjie? MR VISSER Yes, it's just occurred to me that he might understand Afrikaans better English and that I might have to speak in Afrikaans, if it's not translated. May I just take instructions? CHAIRPERSON Certainly. MR VISSER I'm told that there is no problem there. Mr Jantjie, your application form is drafted in Afrikaans, do you understand Afrikaans? MR JANTJIE Yes, I do. MR VISSER And do you understand what is written in your application form, as well as in the statement that was drawn on your behalf just prior to these hearings? MR JANTJIE That is correct, Chairperson. MR VISSER At page 15A, to 16K, a statement has been included, which was drafted by your legal representatives prior to the first occasion on which your amnesty application was supposed to be heard, is that right? MR JANTJIE That is correct, Chairperson. MR VISSER And apart from one or two mistakes which we will point out, do you also confirm the truthfulness and the correctness of the contents of that statement? MR JANTJIE Yes, I do, Chairperson. MR VISSER Are you still a member of the South African Police Service? MR JANTJIE No, I am no longer a member of the SAPS. MR VISSER Mr Jantjie, in your application form to the TRC, in answer to questions posed in paragraph 7(a) and 7(b) at page 8 of the bundle, you stated: "Not applicable" to the questions whether you were a member or a supporter or whatever of a political party and to what capacity that was, you said: "Not applicable", is that correct? MR JANTJIE That is correct. MR VISSER You informed me that you want that changed because according you, that is not entirely correct and you state at page 15A, that you want that amended to read "National Party" (and) Supporter" Is that correct? MR JANTJIE That is correct, Chairperson. MR VISSER Now at the time we all know that Coloured people were not entitled to vote, in 1985, the question is, why is it that you want to amend this part of your amnesty application? How do you see the matter today? MR JANTJIE May you please repeat the question for me. MR VISSER Well, were you a supporter of the National Party? MR JANTJIE Yes, I would say so, because I was working under the National Party Government. MR VISSER Is it from that perspective that you think that it is more accurate to say that you were in fact a supporter, although you could not vote for the National Party, or any other party? MR JANTJIE That is correct, Chairperson. MR VISSER You have seen the documents called: "Die Algemene Agtergrond tot Amnestie Aansoeke", which has served for the past year or so before Sub-Committees on Amnesty, pertaining to the position of policemen and other issues, is that correct? MR JANTJIE That is correct, Chairperson. MR SIBANYONI Excuse me, Mr Visser, may I just get clarity on this. You stated to him that Coloured people were not allowed to vote, are you indicating that Mr Jantjie is a Coloured person? MR VISSER That Mr Jantjie? MR SIBANYONI Is Coloured. MR VISSER Well, Mr Jantjie, were you able to vote in the previous regime? MR LAX No, no, you're missing the thrust of the question. MR VISSER Oh I see, it's not on record that he ...(intervention) MR LAX Sorry, Mr Jantjie, what is your - for want of a better word, tribal origin? Are you a Coloured person, are you a Sesotho person? MR JANTJIE I'm a Xhosa. MR LAX You're a Xhosa. Thank you, that clarifies the matter. MR SIBANYONI Thank you. MR VISSER Sorry, I didn't understand the question. As far as this General Background document is concerned, are there portions of that document that you are not able to confirm? MR JANTJIE Yes, I do. MR VISSER Are those the portions concerning Botswana and Swaziland, of which you have no knowledge? MR JANTJIE Yes, that's correct. MR VISSER And do you ask the Committee to incorporate the balance of that document in your evidence, as pertaining to your situation as well? MR JANTJIE That is correct, Chairperson. MR VISSER Chairperson, may I ask that this again serves as Exhibit A, without the obligation of handing it in? Various copies are lying all over the place. CHAIRPERSON I think we've got plenty by now. MR VISSER And in fact, one of my Chairmen, I remember, has pleaded with me not to hand it in again, because he's got so many copies of it already. CHAIRPERSON Ja, even when I want to write my memos, I think I have enough copies to refer to. MR VISSER Thank you. Now first of all, the - my learned attorney has just drawn my attention, the medical certificate which we handed in on behalf of Mr Thulo, could that perhaps for the sake of the record, be marked Exhibit B? I've already marked it. CHAIRPERSON Thank you, it shall be reflected as Exhibit B. MR VISSER Thank you, Chairperson. Mr Jantjie, in paragraph 2 at page 15B, you deal with the issue of informers, is that correct? MR JANTJIE Yes, that's correct. MR VISSER And you state the principle that you believe that the identity of informers should not be divulged, but in this case you did divulge the identity of four informers of the South African Police, is that correct? MR JANTJIE That is correct. MR VISSER And that was because they were in fact also the victims in this matter, is that not correct? MR JANTJIE That is correct. MR VISSER As far as the other informers that you refer to and that you will refer to in your evidence, are concerned, you would prefer not to divulge their identities, for obvious reasons, is that correct? MR JANTJIE Yes, that's correct. MR VISSER Now Mr Jantjie, we now that you were in the Security Police during 1985, where were you stationed? MR JANTJIE I was stationed at Ladybrand. MR VISSER Oh, I keep on referring to 1985, that was last week's amnesty application, it's 1987. And who was your Commanders? MR JANTJIE It was Lieut Robertshaw. MR VISSER And who was your direct Commander? Was it him, or was it someone else? MR JANTJIE No, he was the second Commander. My first Commander was Capt Fouche. MR VISSER He was the overall Commander. Alright. And what were your duties as member of the Security Branch at Ladybrand? MR JANTJIE My main duty was to gather information about the people, those people who were alleged to be fighting for liberation from Lesotho. MR VISSER Chairperson, I'm wondering whether I could ask, through the Chair, to lead the witness until we come to the relevant facts, and if my learned friend Mr Koopedi thinks that there's a question which, for reasons known to himself, that I should not lead, then perhaps he should just mention it to save a little time, Chairperson, because I'm leading the witness and it's taking a lot of time on really matters that are not really contentious. CHAIRPERSON Mr Koopedi? MR KOOPEDI Chairperson, I have no comment. CHAIRPERSON Okay. Then you do. MR VISSER Thank you, but somebody will stop me if I step out of bounds. CHAIRPERSON Please feel free Mr Koopedi, if you so feel that there is something that is really impacting on what you want to know or the victims would want to know. MR KOOPEDI I'll do so, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. You may proceed Mr Visser. MR VISSER As it pleases you, Mr Chairman. Now Mr Jantjie, is it correct that you and the other applicant here, Mr Jagga, concerned yourself mainly with situations in Lesotho, where you monitored inter alia the activities of members of the ANC and MK, the African National Congress and Umkhonto weSizwe, the BCM, Black Consciousness Movement, the PAC, Pan Africanist Congress movement, and SACTO, is that correct? MR JANTJIE That is correct, Chairperson. MR VISSER And is it also correct that as far as the ANC and MK were concerned, in 1987 there were some 30 members of that organisation active in Lesotho? MR JANTJIE That is correct, Chairperson. MR VISSER Is it also correct that you made use of various informers to give you information regarding the activities of these people that you were monitoring? MR JANTJIE That is correct, Chairperson. MR VISSER And you yourselves went into Lesotho, virtually on a daily basis, where you visited bars and public places and spoke to people in order to attempt to gain information, is that right? MR JANTJIE That is correct, Chairperson. MR VISSER At one stage your told me and you said that you and Jagga pretended that you were criminals trying to evade the law in South Africa, and that you used as a cover, is that correct? MR JANTJIE Yes, that's correct, Chairperson. MR VISSER Now what were you told by way of information of informers, about Ms Betty Boom? Can you just tell the Committee. MR JANTJIE The information that we got from our informers was that there was a member of the ANC who was called Betty Boom and Betty Boom was one of the MK people who was supposed to come and launch attacks before Xmas in 1987, in South Africa. MR VISSER Was she attached to an MK cell or unit in Lesotho? MR JANTJIE According to the information that we got, she belonged to a certain cell that was operating in the Free State. MR VISSER Who was the leader of that unit? MR JANTJIE We were told that she was the leader of that cell. MR VISSER Alright. Now you later heard that there were at least two other members connected to that cell, is that correct? MR JANTJIE Yes, that's correct, Chairperson. MR VISSER And we will come to them, they were Nomasonto Mashiya, M-a-s-h-i-y-a and Tax, T-a-x, Sejanamane, S-e-j-a-n-a-m-a-n-e, is that correct? MR JANTJIE That is correct. MR VISSER Alright, we'll return to them later. Now what other information, if any, did you obtain regarding Ms Boom? MR JANTJIE The other information that we got later was that Betty Boom was not satisfied within the ANC, she had some financial problems. MR VISSER Alright. And what did you decide to do, you and Mr Jagga? MR JANTJIE We used that opportunity, we tried to persuade her to come and work with us, because we wanted her to help us with information that we needed. MR VISSER Did you consider that to be part of your normal duties which you performed under instructions from your senior officers, to try to recruit informers? MR JANTJIE That is correct, Chairperson. MR VISSER So how did you go about it, Mr Jantjie? MR JANTJIE We went to the place where Betty was living, we went there for several days. We were trying to get information about other people who were living with her, so that when the opportunity availed itself we can be able to approach her. MR VISSER Did you first ...(intervention) MR LAX Sorry, what do you mean you went to her place? Did you keep it under surveillance, did you monitor it, did you go inside, did you talk to her? What do you mean? MR JANTJIE We did not enter the place where she was staying, we just put her under surveillance. MR LAX And? You said you got information about people that lived there. Did you put everybody in that premises under surveillance? MR JANTJIE No, Chairperson. MR LAX Well then tell us what you did. MR JANTJIE After some few days we managed to follow her from her home. We were pretended to be other MK people. In that way we managed to approach her and we talked to her, we asked her to come and work with us ...(intervention) MR VISSER Yes, just before you get there, can we just go back. Did you first keep the house under observation, Mr Jantjie, you and Mr Jagga? MR JANTJIE Yes, we did. MR VISSER For how long? MR JANTJIE For a few days. I cannot recall how many days, but I think it could be two to three days. MR VISSER Alright. And did she receive any visitors at her home, that you saw? MR JANTJIE No, we did not see people going to her place. MR VISSER And you gave evidence just now that you followed her into, I think you said into town, is that into Maseru? Where she did meet people. MR JANTJIE Yes, she was staying outside Maseru. MR LAX You said you were checking who else lived there, who else lived there? MR JANTJIE We did not want to find out who else was staying with her, we just wanted to other people who would visit her from time to time. MR VISSER As far as you ...(intervention) MR LAX Just hang on. Didn't anyone work there for her? MR JANTJIE No, as far as I know. MR LAX So she lived alone at that house and she was the only person there? That's your observation. MR JANTJIE Yes, according to our observation, that's true. MR LAX Thanks. Carry on, Mr Visser. MR VISSER Thank you. Was your observation a 24-hour observation, or did you just go there during parts of the day or parts of the night? MR JANTJIE We were not observing her 24 hours, we would only go there and observe for about two to three hours a day. MR VISSER Now at some stage you made an approach to her, is that correct? MR JANTJIE Yes. MR VISSER And you told the Committee that you pretended to be other MK members. MR JANTJIE That is correct. MR VISSER And did she believe that cover which you put out to her? MR JANTJIE Yes, she did. MR VISSER And what transpired thereafter, what did you talk about, what did she tell you? MR LAX Sorry, before you go there, what did you tell her, where were you from, where had you been trained? What did you tell her to win her over? MR JANTJIE We used some tactics at that time, those were the tactics that we used when we were trying to recruit people. We had ANC documents and we were reading those documents, we know how to recruit people into the ANC. So we made her believe that we were ANC members. MR LAX Sir, I would like you to tell me what you told her, not what documents you read her. You see, you said to us that you were MK members, you pretended to her that you were MK members. Well in order to do that you must have told her that you had trained at a certain place, that you knew certain people. What did you tell her? MR JANTJIE We explained to Betty that we were the MK members and we were there to help her to launch attacks in the Free State. MR LAX Well didn't you explain to her where you were from? Didn't you say who your Commanders were? Surely that's something you would have had to tell her. MR JANTJIE It was easy to recruit a person and it was easy for us to recruit Betty. We used the tactics that we knew that she will believe us. MR LAX Well why should she believe you, that's what I'm trying to understand and so far you haven't given me, not even one good reason why anyone would believe you, other than that you've read ANC documents. I want to understand your strategy. MR JANTJIE At that time we were working with the ANC people, so we knew the tactics that they used in recruiting people. MR LAX But you see you didn't have to recruit her, she was an MK member. It wasn't a matter of recruiting someone else to MK, this is a matter of going to a Commander of a unit, convincing her that you're an MK person to win her confidence first, convincing her that you're part of a structure that's going to help her. How did you do that? We're not talking about recruiting people to the ANC or to MK. MR JANTJIE We had information that Betty had financial problems. CHAIRPERSON You know before then, what my Committee Member wants to know from you is that what tactics did you use to convince her that you were also ANC or MK members? What tactics did you use? To use your word. MR JANTJIE It was just to explain to her that we were MK people, we were sent to come and work with her in her unit, from Lesotho. MR LAX Carry on, Mr Visser. MR VISSER And she believed that? MR JANTJIE Yes, she did, Chairperson. MR VISSER You spoke about the financial problems, what did she tell you? MR JANTJIE She told us that the money that she received from the headquarters was very little and she could not manage to address her problems. MR VISSER The place where she lived in was, what kind of a residence was that, can you tell us? MR JANTJIE The place could be about five kilometres from Maseru, just outside Maseru ...(intervention) MR VISSER Mr Jantjie, was it a flat, was it a house, what was it? MR JANTJIE She rented a house. MR VISSER Alright. Now you also told the Committee just now that you told her that you were sent to work with her, what did you say to her about financial support? MR JANTJIE We explained to her that we have enough money, whenever she needs money we will help her. MR VISSER Did that assist in convincing her to believe you? MR JANTJIE That is correct, Chairperson. MR VISSER Did she in fact after some time, tell you about how she felt about the ...(intervention) MR LAX Mr Visser, sorry. These sorts of questions - you better rather ask questions that aren't leading, in the sense that this is the meat of the matter and I would personally prefer you to deal with him in the normal way now. MR VISSER Alright. Thank you, Chairperson. Now did she tell you anything about her attitude to the struggle? MR JANTJIE Yes she did. MR VISSER What did she say? MR JANTJIE Amongst other things that she said was that they were planning that in December 1986 they were planning to launch attacks in the Free State. MR VISSER Mr Jantjie, what I really want to know is, was she happy with her situation? MR JANTJIE She seemed to be a person who was not satisfied. MR VISSER Now did she tell you why she wasn't satisfied? Apart from the finances, was there anything else? MR JANTJIE According to me she looked like a person who was longing to go home. MR VISSER Did she tell you so? MR JANTJIE Yes, she told us she was longing to go back home. MR VISSER Alright. Did you then continue - at some stage did you tell her who you really were? MR JANTJIE Yes, we did. MR VISSER And will you tell us how that came about. MR JANTJIE No, we did not ...(intervention) INTERPRETER I beg your pardon Chairperson, may I request that the applicant does not speak to the mike. MR LAX Can you move the mike a little bit away, just speak a little bit more loudly, because the microphone distorts when you speak too close to it. MR JANTJIE Okay. MR LAX Just repeat the question please, Mr Visser. MR VISSER Let me ask you this again. At some stage or another you revealed your true identity as members of the Security Force, to Betty Boom, is that correct? MR JANTJIE Yes, we did. MR VISSER Why did you do that? MR JANTJIE Because we wanted to reveal our true identity, so that she could be free. We wanted her to know that she's working with the people from the Security Police, because we realised that she was happy to be working in the ANC. MR VISSER So is what you're saying is that you managed to recruit her as an informer? MR JANTJIE Yes, Chairperson. MR LAX Sorry, just before you go on. Why was she unhappy about working in the ANC? What was she unhappy about? The ANC, that is. MR JANTJIE It seems as if she had financial problems and she could not address some of her problems. MR LAX What were these financial problems? MR JANTJIE She said that when she was supposed to pay the rent she would not have enough money, sometimes she had to wait long for the money from the ANC. MR LAX Yes, what else? MR JANTJIE That's the only thing that I remember, Chairperson. MR LAX So the only problem was she couldn't pay her rent and the money took a long time to come from the ANC? MR JANTJIE That is correct, Chairperson. MR LAX And that was the reason why she didn't want to work for the ANC anymore? MR JANTJIE Yes, she looked like a person who wanted to withdraw from the ANC. MR LAX No, I'm not asking you what you thought she looked like, I want to know what she told you in your discussion with her. MR JANTJIE That's all that I remember, Chairperson. MR LAX Yes. So she wanted to go home, she had financial problems and therefore she wanted to leave the ANC? MR JANTJIE That is correct, Chairperson. MR LAX And that's why you then exposed yourself to her and let her know that you were members of the South African Security Forces, and then you recruited her? MR JANTJIE We were going to reveal our true identity, Chairperson, as time goes on. MR LAX But you did that. MR JANTJIE That is correct, Chairperson. MR LAX Sorry Mr Visser, I have interrupted you. I just needed to get clarity on these issues. MR VISSER Thank you, Chairperson. MR SIBANYONI Can I also try to get clarity on this. You said she was living in Maseru and you also told her that you were from Lesotho, in other words you were also from the neighbourhood. Did I understand you correctly? MR JANTJIE No, we told her that we were the MK people who were being deployed to Lesotho in Maseru. MR SIBANYONI But deployed from where? MR JANTJIE It was obvious that we were deployed from Lusaka or from any other MK camp in the African States. MR SIBANYONI Okay, thank you. MR LAX You see, that's not good enough, with the greatest of respect. We don't want to know generalities, what did you tell her? In order to win someone like Betty Boom over, you would have had to give her specific information that would satisfy her. What did you tell her? MR JANTJIE Chairperson, I'm trying to tell the truth here and this is what I've written in these papers before me here. MR LAX I'm not interested in what you wrote in your papers, I want to know what you can remember. That's the purpose of testifying, is to tell us what you can remember. Now what did you tell her to convince her that you were an MK member, where did you come from? It's really quite simple. MR JANTJIE What I've already said is what I remember. If there was something else that I know, I would have written it here and I would have told you about it. MR LAX So you told her you were an MK member and in the vaguest possible terms, you came from somewhere in exile, Tanzania, Angola, Zambia, you're not really sure what you told her, but it was just something along those lines? You cannot remember the specifics of what you told her. Is that what you're saying? MR JANTJIE That is correct, Chairperson, because what we were discussing with her made her to believe us. MR LAX You see, that's your evidence and I've heard it a few times already, but the problem is that in order to convince someone who's a Commander of an MK cell that you are somebody that she can trust, you've got to convince her that you come from a certain place with certain orders to join her in a certain structure. I mean, if I was coming to you as a member of the Security Branch, I'd have to convince you that I came from a certain police station, with orders from a certain person to come and join your police station. Not so? MR JANTJIE Yes, that is correct. MR LAX Yes, so it's that kind of information I'm asking you. How did you convince her? MR JANTJIE Chairperson, I have already explained that we talked to her and we convinced her and she agreed to join us. If there was something else, I would have written it on this paper. In other words, what I'm saying is that I do not remember the words that I used when I spoke to her on that day. CHAIRPERSON You may proceed, Mr Visser. MR VISSER Thank you, Chairperson. Now I think I've asked you this before, but is it correct that she was then willing, she declared herself willing to become an informer and to work with the Security Police, at some stage? MR JANTJIE That is correct, Chairperson. MR VISSER How were you to make contact with her in the future? MR JANTJIE We agreed that we would use the telephone, that is her neighbour's telephone. MR VISSER Did she have her own telephone? I'm talking about Ms Betty Boom, did she have a telephone the house? MR JANTJIE No, because - it seems as if she did not have her own telephone, because every time we tried to call her, the people who were answering the phone would say that we should call again after a minute or so. MR VISSER Did you give her telephone numbers of yourselves, in case she wanted to make contact with you? MR JANTJIE I do not remember, Chairperson, but I think we were the people who were supposed to call her. MR VISSER Alright. Now were contacts made with her after she was recruited as an informer? MR JANTJIE Yes, we did, Chairperson. MR VISSER Did you receive any information from her which you could use? MR JANTJIE Yes, that's correct. MR VISSER Will you tell the Committee, without revealing the name of any person, what this information was about. MR JANTJIE Amongst other things that she said to us she gave information concerning the MK people who have entered the Republic of South Africa, who were then living in Cape Town, and there were also other people, one or two people who were operating from Bloemfontein. MR VISSER And what happened as a result of this information that you received? MR JANTJIE We wrote letters from our station to those people where she said there were people operating there, and that resulted in some of those people being arrested. MR VISSER In which places were people arrested, in which towns? MR JANTJIE I remember in Cape Town and Bloemfontein people were arrested there. MR VISSER Now when you received the information which led to the arrests in Cape Town and in Bloemfontein, was Ms Boom then registered as a registered informer of the Security Police, with Head Office, or what was the position? MR JANTJIE She was not yet registered, Chairperson. MR VISSER How long did it take to register a person normally? MR JANTJIE The time was not important, Chairperson, what was important was the person's performance, whether the person was giving enough information and the quality of the information that a person would give. MR VISSER Let me ask you this way then. After - the information which she gave you, how long after she had been recruited did she give you this information? MR JANTJIE It could be a few days, but more than a week. MR VISSER Alright, Was ...(intervention) MR LAX Sorry, did you say a few days, not more than a week, or a few days more than a week? What do you mean by that? Either it's a few days or it's a week or it's more than a week. MR JANTJIE I would say a week, Chairperson. MR VISSER Now what happened thereafter, as far as Ms Boom was concerned? MR JANTJIE She kept staying in Maseru and as time went by she told us about some of her comrades who were living in Maseru. MR VISSER Alright, continue. MR JANTJIE Following that information that she gave us about some of her comrades, we managed to approach those people and our intention was to recruit those people, because Betty was now becoming aware that the ANC was aware of her dealings with us. MR VISSER How did you learn about that? MR JANTJIE She told us, and apart from that there were other people that we were using to follow a certain person in Maseru. MR VISSER Now you're talking about informers, Mr Jantjie, is that right? MR JANTJIE Yes, Chairperson. MR VISSER Alright. MR LAX Sorry, sorry, who was this other person that you were following in Maseru? MR JANTJIE To protect those people I will request that I don't reveal their names. MR LAX No, no, you told us that you were following someone else in Maseru and that you were using these informers as well to follow someone else, by telling us who you were following, you're not going to reveal any informer source. MR JANTJIE I have already said that in order to protect the lives of these people I would request that I don't reveal their names. CHAIRPERSON We understood that you would not reveal names of your sources, that is the informers, but now you said you were following another person, is that a source or not? An informer? MR JANTJIE Chairperson, may you please repeat your question. CHAIRPERSON You said you would not reveal other names of the informers, other than the ones you have mentioned here that you would reveal to us, now you have just mentioned that you were following another person, what I want to know from you is, the person you were following, was that an informer or a person you were suspecting of something? MR JANTJIE The person that we were following was Betty Boom. MR LAX No, no, it can't possibly be, with the greatest of respect. Let me recap for you, your evidence so far is this, she told you that she suspected the ANC was becoming aware of her contact with you and then you went on to say: "And we also learnt from other sources" and you learnt from those other sources in the course of following another person, not Betty Boom. That was your evidence. What did you mean by that, that's what we're trying to understand. MR JANTJIE Chairperson, I'm referring to one person that is Betty Boom. We knew Betty Boom from the information that we got from other sources. MR LAX Yes, but please Sir, we're in a situation now where you've already recruited Betty Boom, the issue that comes up now has got nothing to do with following her around, she's your source, you've already told us she gave you information upon which other people were arrested. So it's not that you have to follow her around, the issue then becomes that there's a concern that the ANC are becoming aware of her contact with you and we are interrogating how you came to know that, and you've told us that you came to know that because she told you that they were worried about her and other people told you, and the other people told you this in the course of you following another person. That was your evidence. So all we're trying to find out is, who was the other person you were following in the course of which you then learnt that the ANC were worried about Betty Boom's contact with you. Is there anything you don't understand so far? MR JANTJIE I do understand, Chairperson. I have already explained that we knew Betty Boom from the information that we got from other sources and after we have recruited Betty Boom, we did not go back to our source and instruct our source to stop following Betty Boom. So our source continued following Betty Boom and giving us information about Betty Boom. MR LAX I give up. CHAIRPERSON Mr Visser, you may probably succeed. MR VISSER Yes Chairperson, there's an obvious problem here. I can tell you that because I've consulted with this witness. With your leave, may I revert to Afrikaans and see whether that doesn't solve the problem, Chairperson. MR LAX But you see, with the greatest of respect, the evidence has been translated from English into Sesotho and it's going into his ears in Sesotho. MR VISSER Yes, but I can't check that evidence, I don't know, Chairperson. There's an obvious problem. May I go to Afrikaans. CHAIRPERSON Yes certainly, it's your case Mr Visser. MR VISSER Thank you, Chair. Mr Jantjie, you say that at some stage Betty Boom told you that the ANC had become suspicious, is that correct? MR JANTJIE That's correct. MR VISSER Now I don't hear anything. MR JANTJIE That is so, Chairperson. MR VISSER Did you also receive that same information from any other source? MR JANTJIE That is correct, Chairperson. MR VISSER Was this from informers of yours? MR JANTJIE That is correct, Chairperson. MR VISSER Did you discuss this matter with Betty Boom? MR JANTJIE Yes, we discussed that with Betty Boom, about what she told us, not what we heard from other sources. MR VISSER And what did you think would happen? What was your discussion about? MR JANTJIE We thought that because there was that suspicion it could happen that the people who were working with her would report her to the Headquarters of the ANC. MR VISSER And what did you decide you should do then? MR JANTJIE We decided that we would have to get these other people who were working with her, so that we can also try to recruit them, so that if there's anything that they knew about Betty, they would not in a better position that they could report that to their Headquarters. MR VISSER Very well Mr Jantjie, what happened then? MR JANTJIE We talked to Betty and we told her that we'll take her to Ladybrand. MR VISSER Why did you want to do that? MR JANTJIE So that we could be able to get those other people, we wanted to recruit these other people so that they could not be of danger to her. MR VISSER So was there actually two reasons why you wanted to take her to Ladybrand? MR JANTJIE That is correct, Chairperson. MR VISSER For her security and to see whether you could recruit the other members? MR JANTJIE That is correct, Chairperson. MR VISSER What did Betty Boom think about this plan? MR JANTJIE She agreed to that plan. MR VISSER And how did you decide you would transport her to Ladybrand? MR JANTJIE We decided that we'll come to her place, we are going to return as if we are taking her by force, so that if there was anybody who would be able to see us with her, it should appear that she did that under duress. MR VISSER That she was abducted? MR JANTJIE That is correct, Chairperson. MR VISSER This plan of yours, did you discuss it with anyone else? MR JANTJIE It was myself, Capt Robertshaw, Tony Jagga and Daniel Thulo. MR VISSER Did you receive instructions to go ahead with this plan? MR JANTJIE That is correct, Chairperson. MR VISSER Who gave you approval or instruction? MR JANTJIE It was Capt Robertshaw. MR VISSER And the people you have mentioned previously, were those the persons who then went to fetch Betty Boom in Lesotho? MR JANTJIE That is correct, Chairperson. MR VISSER Where did you enter Lesotho, did you cross the river or? MR JANTJIE No, we went through the Maseru border. MR VISSER And where did you find Betty Boom? MR JANTJIE According to our arrangements we were supposed to fetch her at her place, or somewhere near her place. MR VISSER So where did you find her? MR JANTJIE We found her not far from her home. That place could be a distance from here when I am sitting and the next street here. MR VISSER Did you pick her up or what was the position? MR JANTJIE Yes, we did, Chairperson. MR VISSER Did she carry anything with her? MR JANTJIE She only had her bag. MR VISSER And where did you go to then? MR JANTJIE We crossed with her into the Republic of South Africa through the Maseru border gate and we went to Ladybrand. MR VISSER Was it easy for you in those days to move through the border post as Security Police officers? MR JANTJIE Yes, Chairperson. MR VISSER Were you and Mr Jagga known to the border post guards? MR JANTJIE That is correct, Chairperson. MR VISSER And did you take Betty Boom through the border without any trouble to Ladybrand? MR JANTJIE That is correct, Chairperson. MR VISSER And in the Ladybrand region, where did you take Betty Boom to? MR JANTJIE We went to a certain farm outside Ladybrand, it can be 20 kilometres from Ladybrand. MR VISSER What did you use that farm for? MR JANTJIE That farm was used by the Security Police at that time. MR VISSER I'm told, Chairperson, that I'm asking the questions while there's still an interpretation going on, so I'm going to go a little slower. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. MR LAX The question was, what was the farm used for, not by whom was it used. MR JANTJIE It was the first time that I go to that farm, that is the day we went there with Betty. MR VISSER Was the farm used as a safehouse, Mr Jantjie? MR JANTJIE That is correct, Chairperson. MR VISSER Very well. You then went to this farm, what happened at this farm? MR JANTJIE At the farm, from this newspaper that we got from Betty we learnt that there was somebody who was working with her, known by the name of Nomasonto. She explained to us the place where we could get this person in villages outside Maseru. So we decided that we should go and fetch Nomasonto Mashiya to come and stay with Betty at the farm, so that we can convince her to work with us. MR VISSER I beg your pardon, I was listening to the other translation. Who proposed that Nomasonto be fetched? MR JANTJIE That is Betty Boom. MR VISSER What was the purpose of fetching her? MR JANTJIE We wanted to recruit her, Chairperson. MR VISSER What happened afterwards? MR JANTJIE After that myself and Daniel Thulo, we went to that place outside Maseru and when we arrived there we found her at that place. We explained to her that we had been sent by Betty Boom, she has asked us to go and fetch her and take her to Ladybrand where there are things that she wanted to talk about with her. MR VISSER And what was the reaction of Nomasonto? MR JANTJIE She agreed. She went with us together with a young boy who could be two years old. MR VISSER Was it her child? MR JANTJIE That is correct, Chairperson. MR VISSER And this operation, did you execute it under instruction of anyone? This is now yourself and Thulo. MR JANTJIE Everything that we were doing at that time we would inform Capt Robertshaw, so I would say we got instructions from him. MR VISSER And did you then go to the farm with Nomasonto? MR JANTJIE That is correct, Chairperson. MR VISSER What happened there? MR JANTJIE At the farm she met Betty Boom and we had already agreed before that that Betty would assist us in convincing Nomasonto, so that we could be able to recruit her. MR VISSER And did this happen then, did she convince her? MR JANTJIE That is correct, Chairperson. MR LAX How long after you had taken Betty to the farm did this particular operation happen? MR JANTJIE If I remember well, it was after a day. MR VISSER Chairperson, I'm now told that I'm causing great confusion here. It seems that I'm asking my next question before the Afrikaans has been translated, so perhaps I'm causing more problems by now speaking Afrikaans. My attorney keeps on tugging my jacket here and saying to me: "You're going too fast, you're going too fast." MR LAX I can't notice any discernible problem at all from my side. The witness is ...(intervention) MR VISSER Could we ask the Afrikaans Interpreter whether I'm interfering with his translation? CHAIRPERSON Is your translation being interfered with? MR LAX He's putting his thumbs up to say there's no problems. SOTHO INTERPRETER No, Chairperson. I would request that Mr Visser be slow, because I have to wait for the Afrikaans translation in order to continue. MR LAX Okay, the Sotho Interpreter is saying can you slow down a little bit, because he's actually waiting for what you're saying in Afrikaans to be translated to him into English and then he's then asking the question. It might be easier if you just ask the question in English. MR VISSER Thank you, I think let me go back to that. Okay, you say that it was a day later - did you say a day later after you took Betty Boom to the farm that you fetched Nomasonto, was that what you said? MR JANTJIE That is correct, Chairperson. MR VISSER And you also told us, just to summarise your evidence, that beforehand Betty Boom said that she would help to convince Nomasonto to become an informer and that is exactly what she did, is that correct? MR JANTJIE That is correct, Chairperson. MR VISSER How long did it take before Nomasonto agreed to become an informer of the Security Branch? MR JANTJIE It took her only one day, because the following day she had already agreed with Betty. MR VISSER Alright. What happened thereafter - perhaps I should ask you first, what happened to the child of Nomasonto? MR JANTJIE Following our discussions between ourselves and Nomasonto, Nomasonto decided that the child should be taken home, that is, where she was from. That was in Vereeniging or Vanderbijlpark, I cannot recall properly. MR VISSER Yes, I see in the papers that she came from Sebokeng, but be that as it may, what was then arranged? MR JANTJIE Yes we did. MR VISSER What did you do? MR JANTJIE We asked two of my co-workers, that is Tsolo and Mokonjulwa, Nomasonto wrote a letter and she directed them where the place is they should go in Sebokeng and she gave them the names of the people who were staying at that place. And they did that, Chairperson. MR VISSER Who were the people who stayed at that address, can you remember? MR JANTJIE I do not remember, but I remember that they were Nomasonto's parents. MR VISSER Did you, at that time in 1987, read what she stated in the note? MR JANTJIE No, I did not, the people who read that letter were Tsolo and Mokonjulwa. MR VISSER So you don't know what was in that note? MR JANTJIE Yes, I would say I don't know, Chairperson. MR LAX Could I just ask something here. Why didn't you read the note? MR JANTJIE It was obvious that she was telling her parents that she was sending the child to them. MR LAX But you were her handler, isn't that so? MR JANTJIE It can happen that my co-workers read the letter, but I did not personally read the letter. MR LAX Just answer my question. Were you her handler? MR JANTJIE Yes, that's correct, Chairperson. MR LAX Well here's someone who's only just agreed to become an informer for you, surely you might have been worried that she'd say something untoward in that letter, that might give the game away. How did you know that? MR JANTJIE I have already explained, Chairperson, that maybe some of my co-workers did read the letter, but I personally did not read the letter. MR LAX Yes, but your co-workers weren't briefed about her, you were the one who knew everything about her. MR JANTJIE No, Chairperson, that does not mean it's only myself who knew everything that was happened there, because I've already explained that I was working with Jagga, Robertshaw and Thulo. MR LAX Yes. CHAIRPERSON You may proceed, Mr Visser. MR VISSER And as far as you know, was the child then taken away in good health by the two people that you mention at page 15G, in paragraph 30, Mr Tsolo and Mokonjulwa, is that correct? MR JANTJIE That is correct, Chairperson. MR VISSER What happened thereafter, Mr Jantjie? MR JANTJIE While still at the farm we received information from Betty Boom again, that there is another person who was working with her and his name was Tax Sejanamane. She said that we should also go and fetch him. MR VISSER Did she tell you where to fetch him from? What his address was. MR JANTJIE She explained as she did with Nomasonto. MR VISSER And what happened then? Incidentally, how long was this after Nomasonto arrived on the farm? MR JANTJIE I think now we are on our third day, because all these things happened a day after one another. MR VISSER And perhaps just to make it clear, how long in total, do you recall, was Ms Betty Boom on the farm before she was taken back to Lesotho? MR JANTJIE She stayed for a period of a week. MR VISSER Of a week, is that what you say? MR JANTJIE Yes, Chairperson. MR VISSER Thank you, Chairperson, I couldn't hear the answer. Alright, the information is now received about where Tax Sejanamane can be found, and what happened then? MR JANTJIE Betty called Tax in Maseru and she explained to him about the people who would come to him the following day. She told him that he should go with those people when they arrive at his place. MR VISSER How did she call him? Was it by telephone, Mr Jantjie? MR JANTJIE Yes, she telephoned him, Chairperson. MR VISSER Okay. And did she give him any description of you, or whatever? MR JANTJIE Yes, Chairperson. MR VISSER What descriptions did she give him? MR JANTJIE She described the car that we'll be travelling with and the way that he'll be approached ...(intervention) MR VISSER Mr Chairman, I must apologise, the next sentence in paragraph 33 at page 15G, is a clear draughtsman's mistake, because it makes no sense in the context of the evidence. I would ask you just to strike out that first sentence "Ons het toe besluit om weer voor te gee dat daar 'n ontvoering was" is clearly wrong in the context here. What happened thereafter, after she had spoken to him and given him the descriptions, what happened then? MR JANTJIE The next day myself, Jagga, Robertshaw and Thulo went to that place, that is the place where we have agreed with Betty Boom that we would meet Tax at. MR VISSER And did you find him there? MR JANTJIE Yes, we found him there and we explained to him that we were sent by Betty Boom to him and then he came with us to the car. MR VISSER What was his initial reaction when he saw the four of you arriving there? MR JANTJIE He did not have any suspicion until we arrived at the farm. MR VISSER Alright. And what happened on the farm? MR JANTJIE When we arrived at the farm he realised that we were not the people who were working for the ANC and he became worried and he was angered by the situation that he found himself in. MR VISSER Yes, what happened? MR JANTJIE We tried to explain to him that - we gave him the reason why we did what we did to him, we wanted him to work with us and then he understood. MR VISSER And did he also see Nomasonto and Betty Boom on the farm? MR JANTJIE That is correct, Chairperson. MR VISSER Did they speak with each other? MR JANTJIE Yes, Chairperson. MR VISSER And you say that he agreed to work with you as an informer? MR JANTJIE Yes, Chairperson, again we were assisted by Betty Boom. MR VISSER How long did it take before this happened? MR JANTJIE It took a day to agree to work with us, Chairperson. MR VISSER Were any of these people assaulted by you or by any other person that you know of, or tortured? MR JANTJIE Not, Chairperson. MR VISSER So what did you then decide to do now that the three members of that unit that you knew of, were all, apparently, informers of yourselves, what did you then decide to do? MR JANTJIE We decided that since we have agreed that they will work with us, we'll take them back to Maseru in Lesotho and we agreed that they will give us every information about the ANC people in South Africa, and then we requested that they should give that information to Betty Boom and Betty Boom will be the person who would liaise with me and Mr Jagga. MR VISSER And what - did you in fact take them back? MR JANTJIE Yes, we took them back to Lesotho. MR VISSER Who were the persons that took them back? MR JANTJIE Who, Betty Boom? MR VISSER No, who took Betty Boom and the others back to Lesotho? MR JANTJIE It was myself and Mr Jagga. MR VISSER And did you go through the border post again at Maseru? MR JANTJIE Yes, Chairperson. MR VISSER And where did you drop them off? MR JANTJIE We left them at the taxi rank near the Pitso ground. MR VISSER Alright. And was it all there these people, Betty Boom, Nomasonto and Tax Sejanamane? MR JANTJIE That is correct, Chairperson. MR VISSER Yes. And you already stated that when you took them back it was a week after you first took Betty Boom out of Lesotho, is that correct? MR JANTJIE That is correct, Chairperson. MR VISSER Did you part with any money? MR JANTJIE Yes, we gave money to Betty Boom. We gave her 250, if I still remember well. MR VISSER Now just on the issue of the money, was this the only time that you gave Betty Boom money, and when I say you I mean you or Jagga, or were there other occasions as well when she was paid money by you? MR JANTJIE If I remember well, when we first met with her in Maseru, there is money that we gave to her, although I do not remember the exact amount. MR VISSER All I am asking you, Mr Jantjie, is did you give money to her on more than one occasion? MR JANTJIE That is correct, Chairperson. MR VISSER Can you remember today on how many occasions? MR JANTJIE At that time we would give an informer 250, not more than that. MR VISSER But do you remember on how many occasions you gave her money of any amount? MR JANTJIE I think we gave her money on three occasions. MR VISSER Alright. Now you, just to make sense of the sequence of events, Betty Boom and her two members of her unit are now back in Lesotho, is that correct? MR JANTJIE That is correct, Chairperson. MR VISSER And soon thereafter you obtained information about someone else, is that correct? MR JANTJIE That is correct, Chairperson. MR VISSER How long after you took Betty Boom and her members back to Lesotho did you get this information? MR JANTJIE It could be one to two days, Chairperson. MR VISSER And what was the information? MR JANTJIE We received information that there was a person by the name of KK, who was the member of the ANC, and he stayed near the National University of Lesotho. MR VISSER Did you receive any information about what KK was doing? MR JANTJIE The information that we had at that time about this person made it obvious to us that KK was one of the people who were deployed to the Eastern or the Western Cape Machinery. MR VISSER Of what? Of MK? MR JANTJIE That's correct, Chairperson. MR VISSER This person, KK, is he Mr Mbulelo Ngono? MR JANTJIE That is correct, Chairperson. MR VISSER So when you got that information, what did you do? MR JANTJIE We discussed this information, I discussed it with Mr Jagga and Mr Robertshaw and we decided that we should try to get Mbulelo Ngono or KK, so that we could recruit the same way as we did with the other three recruitees. MR VISSER Did Mr Robertshaw give you such instructions, you and Jagga? MR JANTJIE That is so, Chairperson. MR VISSER And what did you do as a result thereof? MR JANTJIE Myself and Daniel Thulo went to this place that is Roma, that is where KK lived. MR VISSER Was that an address that you received from an informer? MR JANTJIE That is correct, Chairperson. MR VISSER And was Mr Thulo present when Mr Robertshaw gave the instructions? MR JANTJIE That is correct, Chairperson. MR VISSER What was Mr Robertshaw's instructions in regard to KK, what did you have to go and do? MR JANTJIE Mr Robertshaw instructed us to go to that place with the aim of recruiting KK, so that he could work with us. MR VISSER And if you did not succeed in recruiting him in Lesotho, what were you supposed to do? MR JANTJIE We were supposed to come with him the way that came with the other three people. MR VISSER You're supposed to bring him to the farm, is that what you're saying? MR JANTJIE Yes, Chairperson. MR VISSER And if he did not want to come from his own free will, what were you supposed to do? MR JANTJIE We were supposed to meet with other people who were working with us in Lesotho, who would help us to get him. MR VISSER When you say "get him", do you mean abduct him? MR JANTJIE When I refer to these other people I was referring to the Lesotho police and then they will bring him to us. MR VISSER And what did you then do with him? MR JANTJIE On our way to Roma we decided that we are not going to try and recruit him, we'll go straight to the police in Roma, so that they could help us to get KK. MR VISSER Now my question to you is this Mr Jantjie, please listen carefully, was this cleared with Mr Robertshaw beforehand? MR JANTJIE That is correct, Chairperson. MR VISSER Alright. So you go to the police station, and what happens there? MR JANTJIE We met with two policemen, we explained to them everything, they did not have a problem with our request, so they said they will go with us to the place where KK was staying and if KK was there they will arrest him and they will give him over to us. MR VISSER Now did the four of you, you, Thulo and the two policemen from Lesotho, then go to a certain address near the University of Lesotho? MR JANTJIE That is correct, Chairperson. MR VISSER Was it a flat, an apartment? MR JANTJIE I would say it was a flat, because there were many people staying there. It had many doors. MR VISSER And was it a flat in which a certain Mabece - Chairperson, the bundle, page 44 and following, where the person Lidiwa Mabece stayed, is that the place you're referring to? MR JANTJIE That is so, Chairperson. MR VISSER And did you find KK there? MR JANTJIE Yes, Chairperson. MR VISSER Was the apartment searched? MR JANTJIE The Lesotho police did the searching, Chairperson. MR VISSER Was anything found? MR JANTJIE They found a handgrenade underneath the chair, Chairperson. MR VISSER Underneath the bed, in what? MR LAX Was it a chair or a bed? It was translated as a chair. MR JANTJIE It was underneath the bed, Chairperson. MR VISSER And was he then arrested? MR JANTJIE We went with him to Roma Police Station ...(intervention) MR VISSER No, just answer the question. Was KK, Mr Ngono, was he then arrested by the Lesotho police? MR JANTJIE That is so, Chairperson. MR VISSER During all of this, what did you and Mr Thulo do? MR JANTJIE While being arrested by the Lesotho police, we were just standing by. MR VISSER And before that, when the flat was searched and when people were talking to each other, what did you and Mr Thulo do? MR JANTJIE We were just standing by, Chairperson. MR VISSER In other words, you did nothing, you were just there? MR JANTJIE That is so, Chairperson. MR VISSER Right. So at the Roma Police Station, what happened there? MR JANTJIE At the police station they gave him over to us and then we went with him to Ladybrand. MR VISSER Right. Now just before you get there ...(intervention) MR LAX Sorry, did you tell them you were going to take him to South Africa? MR JANTJIE Yes, we had already explained that to them, Chairperson. MR LAX Before you started this operation? MR JANTJIE That is correct, Chairperson. MR LAX Carry on. MR VISSER Just one issue which we must rectify. When KK was arrested, was he arrested together with Ms Mabece, or what is the position? MR JANTJIE As far as I know only KK was arrested. MR VISSER Chairperson, the fourth sentence in paragraph 40, at page 15I "With his friend" appears, according to me instructions, to be incorrect. MR LAX Can I just ask him something please. Are you sure that she wasn't taken along, because she says she was? Oh, at a later stage she was taken along, ja. Do you know whether she was picked up, either then or at a later stage? MR JANTJIE I don't know, Chairperson, but she was not taken that day when I was with Tax. MR LAX Yes. And did you leave from the police station to South Africa? MR JANTJIE That is so, Chairperson. MR VISSER Just to make it clear, when you left the apartment with Tax, to the Roma Police Station, what you're saying is that his girlfriend, Ms Mabece, was then not accompanying you, is that what you're saying? MR JANTJIE That is so, Chairperson. MR LAX While we're still at the apartment, was there a third person present in the apartment, besides the four policemen and the two of them? MR JANTJIE We found KK at his place with Lindilama Mabece, his girlfriend. We were four, and in all we were six in that apartment. MR LAX Wasn't her sister there as well? MR JANTJIE No, Chairperson, she wasn't. MR LAX You're sure about that? MR JANTJIE Yes, that is so Chairperson. MR LAX So there wasn't a second young woman there, whoever she might have been? MR JANTJIE No, Chairperson. MR LAX Thank you. MR VISSER Alight. So off you go to Ladybrand and what happens now? MR JANTJIE We went with KK to Ladybrand and we went straight to the farm, that is where we recruited him. MR VISSER Who recruited him, Mr Jantjie? MR JANTJIE It was myself and Mr Jagga. MR VISSER Did you talk to him? MR JANTJIE Yes, Chairperson. MR VISSER Did you tell him that you were members of the Security Police? MR LAX Perhaps he could tell us what he told him, rather than leading him in this way. MR VISSER What was the contents of your discussions with KK, on the farm? MR JANTJIE We explained to him that we are working for the Security Branch of the Police and we would wish that he work with us and he should give us information about the other members of the ANC who are in the Republic of South Africa and those who are in Lesotho. MR VISSER And what was his reaction? MR JANTJIE Although it took us time before we could manage to convince him, but ultimately he agreed to work with us. MR VISSER Did you assault or torture him? MR JANTJIE No, Chairperson. MR VISSER Do you know why he decided to work with the Security Police, what motivated him? MR JANTJIE I would not say that there was something that motivated him to work with us, but we just had a discussion with him and ultimately he agreed to work with us. MR VISSER Was it just one discussion you had with him? MR JANTJIE Yes, Chairperson. MR VISSER How long did this take? MR JANTJIE We took him back the following day, Chairperson. MR VISSER No, how long did the discussion last, Mr Jantjie? MR JANTJIE We fetched him at around 3 o'clock and the discussion continued until midnight and the following day in the morning, we had another discussion with him for one hour to two hours. MR VISSER So you had more than one discussion with him, is that correct? MR JANTJIE Yes, Chairperson. MR VISSER Was he - when you told him in the first place that you were members of the Security Police and suggested that he should become an informer, was he willing immediately to do so, or what is the position? What was his initial reaction? MR JANTJIE He did not agree to work with us initially. MR VISSER That only happened a day later you say? MR JANTJIE On the very same day we nearly reached an agreement with him, but the following day we managed to reach an agreement with him. MR LAX What do you mean you nearly reached an agreement with him? What exactly to you mean by that? MR JANTJIE He would say to us: "Give us time, I want to think" and that was an indication to us that he wanted to think about this thing first. MR LAX So from 3 o'clock in the afternoon till twelve midnight, he kept asking for more time to think about it? MR JANTJIE That was not the only thing that we discussed with him, there were also things that we discussed with him concerning his work. MR LAX Well you see, you haven't told us about that. So far you've said your discussions with him were about recruiting him and you spoke to him from three in the afternoon until twelve midnight, you haven't said you asked him all sorts of other questions about his work and what he was doing and ... So you had lots of conversations with him, isn't that so? MR JANTJIE That is so, Chairperson. MR LAX You'd ask him whether he wanted to join, he's say: "No, I'm not interested, I still need time to think", then you'd probably go away and leave him and come back again, isn't that so? MR JANTJIE No, we would not leave him, but we will discuss other things with him. MR LAX Well how was he supposed to think about it while you were talking to him about other things? MR JANTJIE We were not taught that we should put a person under pressure. If a person doesn't understand what you're saying to him, you give him a chance to think about it. MR LAX Well that's precisely my question. How could he think about it while you were asking him about all sorts of other things? Surely you'd leave him alone, give him an opportunity to think, lock him in a room, whatever, let him think about it and then after twenty minutes come back to him and say: "Well now you've had a chance to think about it, what's your position?" Isn't that so, isn't that just the most logical thing to expect? MR JANTJIE That is not how we worked, Chairperson. MR LAX Oh, I see. Please carry on. MR SIBANYONI Can I just maybe come in immediately after that? In some of the applications by Eugene de Kock, he told the TRC that whenever the members of the liberation movements were caught they were told to choose between two things, that is to cooperate with the police, or to be killed, and I want to have your comment, why was it so different in your case, that you were working very friendly with them, trying to persuade them in a friendly manner? Do you have anything to comment about that? MR JANTJIE I would say in short, Chairperson, we were not recruiting people the same way as other people in other provinces did. MR SIBANYONI Thank you. MR LAX Can I just follow up one thing? Did you at all make it clear to him what might happen to him if he didn't work with you? MR JANTJIE No, we did not try to threaten him. We never told him what would happen if he did not agree to work with us. MR LAX Carry on. MR VISSER Now perhaps while we're on this point, what could have happened if KK refused to become an informer, what would you have done with him? MR JANTJIE Even if he refused we would still take him back to Lesotho. MR VISSER Was he ...(intervention) MR LAX Are you - sorry, are you seriously saying to us that you would take a trained MK member back to Lesotho if he refused to work for you? Why wouldn't you arrest him and prosecute him for undergoing military training, at the very least, being a member of a banned organisation? MR JANTJIE Chairperson, you have said so many things, what is the question? MR LAX Well, are you seriously expecting us to believe that you would take a trained MK cadre and return him back to Lesotho, because he had refused to work with you? Surely you would have arrested the man and charged him for being a trained member of the MK? As many, many others were arrested and charged. MR JANTJIE Chairperson, I'm saying to you, even if he refused to work with us, we will still return him to Lesotho, because the way we took him from Lesotho, everybody knew that he was taken by the police and people will want to know what happened to him. MR LAX Yes. That didn't stop the Security Forces taking lots of people from lots of places and charging them. But in any event, surely there's a very good reason why you wouldn't take him back to Lesotho, and we've heard this in many, many cases. He knew you, he knew Jagga, he knew Robertshaw, he would have seen Thulo, he would have been an immense security threat to you guys who were working in Lesotho. Isn't that so? MR JANTJIE According to us, Chairperson, he was not the person who was going to be of any threat to us. MR LAX I see. Well, other clients of Mr Visser and Mr Wagener have told us that the reason they killed certain people was precisely for that reason, because once they had refused to become informers, they were a serious threat to their structures and that's why they killed them. Anyway, you've given us your answer, we'll have to accept it for the time being. MR VISSER In any event, what happened then with KK? After he had declared himself willing to work with you, what happened to him? MR JANTJIE Like the other three, KK was taken back to Lesotho and we arranged the place where we would meet after some few days with him. MR VISSER Who took him back? MR JANTJIE It was myself and Mr Jagga. MR VISSER So the issue of what should happen to him if he didn't become an informer, never arose in his case, is that correct? Because he decided to become an informer. MR JANTJIE That is so, Chairperson. MR VISSER And it was also the same as far as Nomasonto and Tax was concerned, is that your evidence? MR JANTJIE That is so, Chairperson. MR VISSER Now what further happened as far as Betty Boom and her members were concerned? MR JANTJIE After a week we contacted Betty Boom, we went to see her in Lesotho. We went there to get some more information about the alleged attacks that were going to be launched by the ANC, from Lesotho. MR VISSER And did you receive information from her? MR JANTJIE That is so, Chairperson. MR VISSER Alright. And you say at page 16J: "Shortly thereafter", referring to January 1989, that's a typing error, it should read 1988, Chairperson, at the top of page 15J. So what happened thereafter? MR JANTJIE When we went to meet Betty Boom, she told us that she has received an instruction that she and her other comrades should go to Lusaka, to the ANC Headquarters. MR VISSER Did you give her any advice? MR JANTJIE We thought that if they would go to Lusaka alone, that was an indication to us that ANC knew something about them. So we thought that it would be better for them to come over to South Africa, so that we could include as members of the askaris. MR VISSER When you say that you thought that the ANC would know something about them, what are you referring to? Know what about them? MR JANTJIE Chairperson, I was saying that ANC maybe knew something about them, not us. MR LAX What do you mean, Sir? You see, how could they not know about you if they were worried, if you were worried that the ANC was going to send them back to Lusaka? Surely they must have known about the contact between Boom and you and therefore, it's obvious why they were being sent back to Lusaka. On your own version. MR JANTJIE Yes, that is so, Chairperson. MR VISSER Thank you, Mr Lax. Now are far as you're concerned, Mr Jantjie, you have already told us that you did the things you did in this regard, acting on instructions from your commanding officers, is that correct? MR JANTJIE That is so, Chairperson. MR VISSER What did you believe about the situation in which you found yourself? During the conflict of the past. MR JANTJIE My understanding was that I was doing my official duties. MR VISSER And did you also understand that you were obliged to follow instructions and do what you were told, in order to combat the revolutionary onslaught? MR JANTJIE That is so, Chairperson. MR VISSER Just a few loose issues. Chairperson, I notice it's 1 o'clock, perhaps if I can just continue a minute or two. CHAIRPERSON ...(indistinct - no microphone) MR VISSER Thank you. Now you know what the situation here looks like, because we know that these four people that you on your own admission, took to South Africa, disappeared, we don't know where they are, is that correct? MR JANTJIE Yes, that is so, Chairperson. MR VISSER After Betty Boom told you that she and her members of her unit were summoned to Zambia, and after you delivered to KK Ngono to Swaziland - I'm sorry, to Lesotho, did you ever hear from them again? MR JANTJIE No, Chairperson. MR VISSER What do you think happened to them? MR JANTJIE I cannot explain, Chairperson, I cannot think what happened to them, Chairperson, because we never met with them again. MR VISSER Well, didn't you kill them? MR JANTJIE No, Chairperson, we did not. MR VISSER If you had killed them, Mr Jantjie, what would you have done? MR JANTJIE We would apply for amnesty concerning the murder of these four people. MR VISSER What do you think happened to them? MR JANTJIE I really don't think what happened to them, Chairperson. MR VISSER When did these incidents take place? MR JANTJIE It happened in December 1987. MR VISSER Now there's a Mr Buthelezi who made a statement in the bundle, page 54, paragraph 11, in which he says that KK was absent from Lesotho from September 1987 to February 1988, and in which he seems to suggest that KK was, either for the first or the second time, I don't know, we'll ask him if he gives evidence, abducted on the 15th of March 1988. Now if KK was again abducted on the 15th of March 1988, would you know anything about it? Were you involved in that? MR JANTJIE No, Chairperson, there is nothing that I know about this. MR VISSER And there's also evidence of a photograph that a policeman told the family of KK about ... pardon? MR LAX He showed them the photograph. MR VISSER In fact he showed them the photograph, which was apparently taken after KK's arrest, whenever that was. My question to you is, do you know anything about a photograph of KK? MR JANTJIE No, Chairperson. MR VISSER Now there's another - I will give you the references later, Chairperson, and by the latest, during the argument, depending on what evidence is led, so I'm not going to deal with it now. A Mr Pitso also filed a statement, page 51, and he says that he was informed that Betty Boom's furniture was taken away with South African Defence Force trucks, do you know anything about that? MR JANTJIE No, Chairperson, I know nothing. MR VISSER Well it says "resembling South African ...", so perhaps I wasn't quite correct in what I put, but we'll deal with that. Do you know anything about an alleged shooting of a person by the name of Mphilo, M-p-h-i-l-o Radebe and KK, on a road somewhere in Lesotho? MR JANTJIE The information that we got was that they met the Lesotho Police or the Lesotho Army at the roadblock and a shooting ensued there. MR VISSER And is it correct that one person, Mr Mphilo, was killed and - no, I'm sorry, I've got it wrong, Mr Radebe, I think, was killed and Mr Mphilo was taken to hospital? MR JANTJIE I don't whether it was Mr Radebe, but I remember that there was a person who died there and Mr Mphilo was sent to the hospital. MR VISSER And in hospital, apparently Mr Mphilo was assassinated. MR JANTJIE I know that he was killed, but I don't know how he was killed. MR VISSER Did you have any knowledge or anything to do with the shooting on the road or the assassination of Mr Mphilo in the hospital? MR JANTJIE No, Chairperson. MR VISSER It's been brought to our attention, Mr Jantjie, and we discussed this with you yesterday, that in an amnesty application by a person by the name of Mr van der Westhuizen, Henri van der Westhuizen, which served before this Committee yesterday, at pages 19 and 20 your name was mentioned as somebody who went into Lesotho with members of Vlakplaas, on a certain mission, what is your reaction to that? MR JANTJIE I do not agree with that, I never went to Lesotho with the people from Vlakplaas. I never worked with the people from Vlakplaas, Chairperson. MR VISSER Never ever? MR JANTJIE I have never worked with them, Chairperson. MR VISSER Then there's a Mr Kadi, who made a statement - I'm not sure what the relevance of the statement is, Chairperson, but we'll deal with later, in which almost Dirk Coetzee-like allegations are made. You've read it and this has been dealt with in consultation with you, I'm not going to waste time about it, do you agree with what Mr Kadi says about you and the role that you played in his incidents that he mentions? MR JANTJIE No, Chairperson, I disagree with him. MR VISSER And then lastly, you told us that certain approached have been made to you by somebody in regard to your evidence before this Committee, is that correct? MR JANTJIE That is correct, Chairperson. MR VISSER Would you just tell the Committee what this is about. MR JANTJIE Since the TRC investigation started in our area, we had discussions with a man by the name of Phule Zwane, who I know that he was the TRC Investigator from Durban. On many occasions, even yesterday in Pretoria, he is the person who told me that, or who attempted to tell me that I should change my statement against the people I am working with and then he said to me he will take me back to the South African Police Services if I do so. I said to him I left the Police Services because I was medically unfit and I no longer have the wish to work for the Police Services. MR VISSER Were you promised anything about a rank? MR JANTJIE He said to me I will be promoted. MR VISSER Thank you. And the evidence that you gave here today, is that the evidence as best you can recall, of what actually and truthfully happened in regard to these four victims? MR JANTJIE That is so, Chairperson. MR VISSER Thank you, Mr Chairman. Perhaps we can take the adjournment now, so that I can go through my notes, but I believe I've finished. MR SIBANYONI Maybe, Chairperson, just one clarity before we adjourn. I notice there is a document you're constantly referred to and when my colleague was asking you questions you said you want to see what you have written down, what document is that one that you are using? MR JANTJIE This is the document in which I have explained all the things that I have done, for which I apply for amnesty. MR SIBANYONI Part of the application? MR JANTJIE That is correct, Chairperson. MR VISSER It's at page 15A, Chairperson. I thought I had referred you to it. That's the only document he's referring to. MR SIBANYONI Thank you, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Before we just break for lunch, what was your rank at that stage within the South African Police? MR JANTJIE I was the Warrant Officer, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Mr Jantjie, we will return after lunch, if Mr Visser does not have further clarifications about your evidence, you will be cross-examined by Mr Koopedi and Mr Mapoma, but we will for now break for lunch and come back at 2p.m. COMMITTEE ADJOURNS ON RESUMPTION LESIZI MICHAEL JANTJIE (s.u.o.) CHAIRPERSON Mr Visser. MR VISSER Thank you, Chairperson. Chairperson, yes, there are two issues which I just want to briefly deal with in the evidence of Mr Jantjie, but Chairperson a problem is arising and which causing us great concern. CHAIRPERSON Yes, Sir. MR VISSER ADDRESSES And we have thought very deeply about it, and we believe that short of applying to court for an urgent interdict, we must mention it to you. This person, Zwane, has apparently telephoned Mr Thulo this morning and he has suggested to him that he, Mr Zwane, is going to come to Mr Thulo where he's in bed at home, to change his statements in this amnesty application. Now Chairperson, the members of the Investigation Unit have no right to talk to my clients, with great respect, they've got nothing to talk to them about and they're not entitled to do so. And Mr Zwane is clearly on a crusade to obtain from both Mr Jantjie and now Mr Thulo, a statement which does accord, according to them, to the truth. And Chairperson, we were wondering whether there's anything that you could possibly do from your side, in order to put a stop to this. CHAIRPERSON When did he phone? MR VISSER While we were busy this morning. CHAIRPERSON He phoned Thulo whilst we were busy this morning? MR VISSER Yes. He spoke to Mr Jagga, Mr Jagga can confirm that and he is now, he now knows that Jantjie's given evidence and he now is focusing on Mr Thulo. Chairperson, with great respect, this is not what this process is about. CHAIRPERSON Let me just find out, I don't know the person either. Mr Mapoma, would you assist us, I don't know this Zwane, is he in the Cape Town office, or what is the position? MR MAPOMA Thank you, Chairperson. Chairperson, actually Phule Zwane is not the TRC official. CHAIRPERSON Not? MR MAPOMA Yes, Chairperson. He was at some point an Investigator within the TRC, but he resigned some time ago and he's no longer working for the TRC. But I understand, Chairperson, that the families have requested him in his individual capacity, to investigate this matter on their behalf. So whatever he's doing, he's doing is an independent investigation, so to speak, not under the TRC, and he's not reporting to the TRC for whatever he's doing. That is all I can say, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Mr Koopedi, it would appear the ball is now being played into your court. MR KOOPEDI I realise that, Chairperson, it's thrown into my court even though I'm actually at the stands, I'm not a player here. What I want to say, Chairperson, is that I only know Mr Zwane as a person who was an Investigator of the TRC, and that was perhaps two years or so ago. I have no knowledge of him acting on behalf of any of my clients. No-one has said so. I'm not denying that he's going that, but what I want to say is, no-one has told me that Phule Zwane is doing any work for them or for this matter. CHAIRPERSON But couldn't we just nip it here, Mr Koopedi, that we take a short adjournment, let's get to this, because I want to make a ruling about this. Let's just adjourn shortly, just to become certain of what you are saying. They haven't brought it to your attention, they might have later done that. I'm not saying they have, but let's just have certainty on this matter. MR KOOPEDI We'll take a short adjournment. When you're ready, please call us. MR VISSER Thank you, Mr Chairman. COMMITTEE ADJOURNS ON RESUMPTION LESIZI MICHAEL JANTJIE (s.u.o. CHAIRPERSON I must apologise for this, it would appear there was mis-communication, I said as soon as this is resolved or some understanding has been reached, we should be called. We are sitting waiting for you until Mr Ashley called us back, we are sorry about that. Mr Koopedi, the last time - or should I address Mr Malindi instead? I don't know. MR KOOPEDI ADDRESSES Counsel says I can proceed to respond to this. Chairperson, Honourable Committee Members, we've taken instructions on what was said earlier and the instructions are to the effect that Phule Zwane was one of the first Investigators on this matter, this is how the families know him and that he at some stage, left the TRC or left investigating this matter and that numerous other people came and the families were really not happy or satisfied with the investigations that followed after Phule Zwane. Now at some stage, it cannot be remember exactly when, but the families asked Phule Zwane to assist them in two forms. Perhaps the first form would be to tell them whether there's anything from his investigations that is not before the Amnesty Committee or is not any of the bundles. And secondly they asked him to further the investigations. According to the instructions we have received, Chairperson, it appears that Phule Zwane was a resourceful avenue for these families, because of the fact that evidence is coming out, even though it's now, that there was a lady present when Tsolo and Mokonjulwa took Umkosana to his grandparents and in all the information that was before the families, that was not so. And to take it further, Chairperson, we received a very vehement note on the question whether there was any instructions to Phule to get him to interfere with any of the evidence. Our instructions are that there was never any instruction or request to Phule Zwane to promise applicant Jantjie that he would be returned to work as a policeman and that he would be given certain promotions. The families state that they know Phule not to be working in the SAPS or to be in any influential position for him to offer people jobs in the SAPS, and even promotions. They said that in an attempt to confirm that they never asked Phule to do that. The instruction goes on further that they had never Phule Zwane to talk to any of the applicants and in particular, applicant Thulo, and change his statement. On the basis of what we have been instructed, Chairperson, it is therefore our submission that, with respect, this Panel is unable to make any ruling like you intimated, Chairperson, that you would want to make a ruling on this matter. Our submission is that you are unable to make a ruling, simply because at the moment there is no evidence before you, I speak this subject to correction, I believe that there is no evidence before you ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON No, no, since he is not in our employ, do I have powers over somebody who is outside the Truth and Reconciliation Commission's employment? MR KOOPEDI ; Well Chairperson, I seem to recall there's a section that deals with interference on the Empowering Act, I'm not sure what it says and I will not say whether or not you have any jurisdiction over him. But what I wanted to say is that I believe that because there is no evidence before you at the moment, you are unable to consider evidence and make a ruling. And further, that I believe that justice dictates and the audi ulteram partem rule dictates that Phule's version should be heard. So our submission is that let's call Phule, let him come here, let him tell what interference has been done, if any, and only when he has done that, then I believe this Committee's able to make a decision. Thank you, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON When you say your instructions are that subsequent Investigators employed by the TRC and in the respect, the Amnesty Committee, they were not as resourceful as Phule and then they engaged Phule to continue to unravel information for them, would this hearing be ripe without that? Or is that something private, outside this hearing? MR KOOPEDI Our submission, Chairperson, is that we would remain having a right to investigate this matter, even after you made a ruling, even after you had decided on whether or not amnesty should be granted. And what I'm saying is, the matter may be ripe for a hearing, but the families would continue to make their own investigations, particularly in the light of the type of applications that are before them and what families believe might have happened to their relatives. CHAIRPERSON What I'm actually driving at is that if there are other investigations, which I'm not saying the families are not entitled to, and those investigations reveal information which would impact, say for instance, we were to grant amnesty and those investigations reveal that amnesty was not supposed to have been granted because of this fresh information, would it be right for us to continue with this hearing? MR KOOPEDI I do not have an answer, Chairperson, but I will say this for what it is worth. From this morning it became clear to me, at least in my mind, that this hearing will not be finalised today or this week rather. And it is on that basis that I presumed that whatever investigations that the families are continuing with, can still be incorporated in the hearing whilst it is proceeding. CHAIRPERSON How would it be incorporated? Say for instance Mr Jantjie, I excuse him and some of the questions have to be posed to Mr Jantjie, how could we proceed thereafter and introduce new information without having Mr Jantjie commenting on whatever would impact on him? How could that happen? MR KOOPEDI We would simply recall him, Chairperson. We've had instances where witnesses have been recalled. We'd simply recall him. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. MR KOOPEDI Thank you, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Mr Visser. MR VISSER ADDRESSES Chairperson, with respect, if Mr Zwane is not in the employ of the TRC, that's the end of the matter as far as you're concerned. Quite clearly. The issue raised by Mr Koopedi in regard to other investigations is that the Act makes it quite clear that it's the Investigation Unit of the TRC who does investigations and no- one else. It says so in Section 28, and it makes it a criminal offence for any other person to do likewise. It says: "Subject to Section 33, no article or information obtained by the Investigating Unit, shall be made public" Giving it to the victims, we respectfully submit, is making it public. "And no person except a member of the Investigation Unit, the Commission, the Committee concerned or a member of the staff of the Commission, shall have access to such article or information until such time as the Commission or the Committee determines that it may be made public, or until the commencement of any hearing in terms of this Act." It's quite clear that the Act supposes that it has instituted an Investigating Unit and that's the Investigating Unit that should deal with matters of investigations. We've had problems in the past, and I say this for no other reason than to give you an example, in the Bopape case, where the Investigating Unit didn't seem to come forward with any information and we actually had to ask specific permission from Justice Miller, for my clients to do their own investigations. It's happened also in the Motsamai and Ngo in Bloemfontein, Chairperson, where we got information, but that was specifically with the permission of the Committee, for the very reason of Section 28. So your question to Mr Koopedi, Chairperson, is, there's no reason for you to stop the hearings and not to proceed with them. In fact, these hearings had already been postponed for the very reason that Ms Quin made a statement, I don't know whether you've got it before you, to say that they haven't had sufficient time. And the Panel who would have heard this application, two/three weeks ago, were very critical of the statement and saying that they don't accept it, because they've had three years in which to investigate. That hearing was postponed because the administrative staff did not give proper notice certain people. So we've gone through this issue of investigations and more information, etcetera, Chairperson, and we are where we are today after a long time and after a postponement and we would urge upon you to continue with the hearing. And Chairperson, we will have to find other ways and means of stopping Mr Zwane. It's as simple as that. We can't ask your help if he's not in the employ of the TRC. CHAIRPERSON I must say what the document of Quin which you refer to, it's not in the bundle and I was not told, because Mr Lax, I believe, was in that hearing. MR LAX I was present in that matter and in fact the Chairperson may have been Judge Khampepe had to leave that particular hearing and the Chairperson arrived the next day, to deal with the next couple of matters after that. I think Mr Wynand Malan was the other person on the Panel. I remember the issue. At the end of the day the matter turned on the question of that proper notice hadn't been given. MR VISSER That's correct, that's why I it was postponed. MR LAX And that was the reason for the postponement. MR VISSER But I believe that it's fair comment to say to you that that Committee then, including yourself, which I've forgotten about, I do apologise, was not impressed with the issue of investigations that there had been not sufficient time and so on. MR LAX Yes no, no, investigations are an ongoing matter within the Commission, as you'll be aware ...(intervention) MR VISSER Yes. But as a reason for a postponement? MR LAX No, not specifically, yes you're quite right. CHAIRPERSON Mr Koopedi, I don't think we should take this matter any further, but I would bring Section 28 to your attention, that if they're not satisfied they've got to revert to the TRC. Or if they have any further information they can only give it to the TRC's Investigative Unit and nobody else. Because we don't want this reconciliation process to have unpalatable ramifications unnecessarily, where we would get to each other's throats again. MR KOOPEDI I hear you, Chairperson, and like I said, I had not read this Section when I spoke to you, I just seemed to remember that there was something to that effect. Yes, and I will leave it at that. And I perhaps wish to say that I was not saying this hearing should be postponed for us to hear Phule Zwane, I would very much want us to proceed. CHAIRPERSON No, that was merely a question proposed by myself. I don't utter it to you. MR KOOPEDI Thank you, Chairperson. R U L I N G CHAIRPERSON: In this instance this Panel has no jurisdiction over Mr Phule Zwane and it's up to the parties or those who are involved or those who are affected by his further investigations, to seek whatever remedy they deem fit. We shall proceed with this hearing. MR VISSER Thank you, Chairperson. I have but two further questions. CHAIRPERSON May you just bear with me, Mr Visser. Sorry about that, Mr Visser, you may proceed. EXAMINATION BY MR VISSER (cont) Mr Jantjie, as I understand your evidence, Mr Thulo was involved on the occasion of each of the persons when they were fetched from Lesotho, is that correct? MR JANTJIE That is so, Chairperson. MR VISSER And indeed, he was involved in the abduction of KK? MR JANTJIE May you please repeat the name again, Chairperson. MR VISSER KK, it's Mr Ngono. MR JANTJIE That is correct, Chairperson. MR VISSER And was Mr Thulo involved in taking back to Lesotho, any of these persons? MR JANTJIE No, Chairperson. MR VISSER Was Mr Thulo involved in the recruitment of any of these victims? MR JANTJIE No, Chairperson. MR VISSER Thank you, Chairperson, I don't have any further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VISSER CHAIRPERSON Thank you, Mr Visser. Welcome back, Advocate Malindi. MR MALINDI Thank you, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON I don't know what is the arrangement between you and Mr Koopedi. Who is going to cross-examine? MR MALINDI Chairperson, Mr Koopedi had the privilege of hearing Mr Jantjie's evidence-in-chief, I propose that he proceeds with the cross-examination of the witness. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Mr Koopedi. CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR KOOPEDI Thank you, Chairperson, I'm honoured once more. Mr Jantjie, perhaps let's start where your evidence-in-chief started. You stated that you did not wish to divulge the names of your informers and for what was referred as for "obvious reasons". My client clients wish to know, what are these "obvious reasons", why would you want to hide the informers that led you to Betty Boom? What is so obvious, in that they have no idea what that is. MR JANTJIE I am trying to protect their lives where they stay. CHAIRPERSON If I may just come in before you proceed any further. I've got that the informers would be in two phases, the others would be those referred to and those would be the ones abducted and the others would not be divulged for security reasons. That's the note that I have, not for "obvious reasons". I'm just reading my note to you, unless they differ from yours, but I would say proceed. MR KOOPEDI Thank you, Chairperson. You say the reasons would be to protect their lives, in what way? MR JANTJIE By not revealing their names, Chairperson. MR KOOPEDI I believe you are aware that, you know that for you to be granted amnesty one of the things you need to do is to give full disclosure. MR JANTJIE Yes, I do know that, Chairperson. MR KOOPEDI And you are aware that at the moment you are not giving full disclosure in that regard, because you're protecting your informants. MR JANTJIE I am trying to disclosure everything, Chairperson. MR KOOPEDI I still don't see how. CHAIRPERSON Does full disclosure not refer to all relevant facts which would make us come to a decision? MR KOOPEDI If the question is directed to me, Chairperson? CHAIRPERSON Ja, I'm sorry, I meant to ... MR KOOPEDI Yes, I believe so, Chairperson, and I believe my other task is not only to assist you to get to this decision, but to assist the families to get to the bottom of the matter, to understand this matter and to enhance reconciliation. And the basis of my question is simply that if in fact there were informers that told the applicant about Betty Boom, who are these informers, why do you want to hide them? CHAIRPERSON No, no, I just wanted to know the relevant facts, I didn't want to pre-empt you. MR KOOPEDI Thank you, Chairperson. My question still stands. CHAIRPERSON Repeat it for his purposes, please Mr Koopedi. MR KOOPEDI Now that you know that you have to give full disclosure for you to obtain amnesty and that this full disclosure relates to the relevant facts about this matter, my instructions are to find out that since are not giving the names of these informers that led you to Betty Boom, do you believed that, or are you moving on the basis that you will nevertheless be granted amnesty, even though you are not giving this full disclosure? MR JANTJIE I have already disclosed everything, Chairperson. MR KOOPEDI I'm sure you'll agree that you have not disclosed the names of these people and it therefore means that's not everything. MR JANTJIE I have explained that I do not want to put their lives in danger, that is why I am unable to disclose their names. MR KOOPEDI I will not proceed, but I will put it to you that you have in this respect not given full disclosure. I take it there is no comment. Let's go to Betty Boom. What information did you get about her? Her age, how old was she? Or as your informants told you, how old was Betty Boom? MR JANTJIE I cannot explain what my informers told me. Her age and other things were not things that were important to us, we were only interested in the facts that would help us to get to her. CHAIRPERSON Because you met her, what would you estimate her age was? MR JANTJIE In 1987, I think she was around 29 or 30 years old. CHAIRPERSON You may proceed, Mr Koopedi. MR KOOPEDI Thank you, Chairperson, I'm indebted. And did you know what position did she occupy in the ANC, or - yes, in the ANC? MR JANTJIE Yes, I did know. MR KOOPEDI What position did she occupy in the ANC? MR JANTJIE I know that she was the Head of the Free State Machinery of the MK. MR KOOPEDI Perhaps I should explain my question before I ask, I'll do it in the form of questions. Did you know that there would be the ANC as a political organisation and MK, Umkhonto weSizwe as the military wing of that organisation? MR JANTJIE Yes, I did know that, Chairperson. MR KOOPEDI In my question I was referring to the position she occupied in the ANC as a political organisation. I am yet to come to the MK activities. Did you have any knowledge on the position she occupied within the ANC? MR JANTJIE No, I don't know her position in the ANC. MR KOOPEDI Did you know that she was a member of the South African Communist Party in Lesotho? MR JANTJIE No, I did not know, Chairperson. MR KOOPEDI Okay. Now you said in your evidence-in-chief that you started to observe Betty's house, you'd go and sit and perform some surveillance for two or three hours a day. Now what I want to know is, during those surveillance escapades, what happened, what did you see? MR JANTJIE There was nothing happening, Chairperson. MR KOOPEDI No-one came in that house or out of that house? MR JANTJIE We were just observing her, Chairperson. MR KOOPEDI Are you saying that if somebody, or myself was to walk into that house, you'd be less concerned, your eyes would only be keyed into seeing Betty and no-one else? MR JANTJIE We would have interest in your, Chairperson. MR KOOPEDI Yes, now my question is, did you see anyone come in or out of that house, other than Betty? MR JANTJIE No, not as far as I remember, Chairperson. MR KOOPEDI Now did Betty have a car, to your knowledge? MR JANTJIE Not as far as I know, Chairperson. MR KOOPEDI It is strange, in that my instructions are that Betty had a BMW, which we drove and used in Lesotho. Did you ever see her in any car or in a BMW vehicle? MR JANTJIE During our observations there we never saw car or any BMW that you are referring to. MR KOOPEDI But you would not deny that - or would you deny that she actually drove in a BMW, which was her official car in Lesotho? MR JANTJIE I have never seen Betty driving a BMW, or any other car. MR KOOPEDI Now the information that you received on her, that she was a Commander of an MK cell, what in particular did you get? Were you told the number of people in her cell, or were you only told that she was a Commander of a cell? Were you given any information on what this cell had to do? That is before you spoke to Betty or made contact with Betty. MR JANTJIE Every bit of information that we'd receive we would write it down, but today I don't have those records, that is why I am only talking about what I can remember, because I'm unable to go back and get the records of the information that we received about her. MR KOOPEDI Okay. MR LAX Sorry, why are you unable to go back and get those records? MR JANTJIE I'm no longer a member of the South African Police, Chairperson. MR LAX You could have asked us to subpoena it through your lawyers. As a policeman you'd know that's possible, isn't that so? CHAIRPERSON As a former. MR LAX As a former policeman, I beg your pardon. MR JANTJIE Because I'm no longer working for the police, I do not want to interfere with their work because I'm no longer working for them. MR LAX Well, your amnesty application depends on getting that kind of information to refresh your memory, to the right facts before the Amnesty Committee. MR JANTJIE The information that I'm giving you today, Chairperson, is the information that I remember, it's not something that I get from the paper. MR LAX Carry on. MR KOOPEDI Thank you, Chairperson. You stated in your evidence-in-chief, and correct me if I'm wrong, if I heard that wrong, that part of the information you received on Betty was that she had financial problems, did I hear you correct? MR JANTJIE That is correct, Chairperson. MR KOOPEDI And this was the information given to you by your informers, is that correct? MR JANTJIE That is so, Chairperson. MR KOOPEDI Now if you could look at your application form - and Chairperson, I'm referring to page 9 of the paginated bundle, what you say there is that at some stage you and Jagga succeeded to make physical contact with Betty and you immediately saw that she was not happy with the ANC and particularly with the money she was getting. Now I find this to be in contradiction to the fact that you actually knew before you went to Betty that she had financial problems and that you did not know that when you met with her. Can you explain that for me? MR JANTJIE Like I have already explained, Chairperson, the evidence that I have given before you here, as Mr Koopedi says that there's a contradiction in my evidence, I don't see that contradiction. I'm unable to refer back to what I've already said and give more information apart from what I've already said, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON He's referring to paragraph, I think on page 9 under (iv), the third paragraph "Jagga and I successfully made physical contact with Betty Boom and immediately realised that she was disillusioned with her position within the ANC and specifically the lack of financial support that she and her cell received." He says reading that sentence, you did not approach Betty Boom knowing that she had financial problems, but you discovered that when you made contact with her, according to this sentence I've just read out to you. Would I be correct, Mr Koopedi, am I putting your position correctly? MR KOOPEDI Yes, you are, Chairperson, I'm indebted. MR JANTJIE It is not so, Chairperson. We went there to Betty knowing that she was not satisfied about the money that she was receiving from her superiors. MR KOOPEDI Would you be able to tell this Honourable Committee why in your application you gave the impression that you only got to know about her problems and her dissatisfactions when you had made physical contact with her? MR JANTJIE I would say, Chairperson, what is written here is that we were trying to recollect what we can remember so that we can put it here. This is what we can remember. MR LAX The question was, why did you give that impression? Are you saying that at the time you wrote this form, you didn't remember properly and that's why it's written in this way? MR JANTJIE I would say, Chairperson, what is written here, that is what we know happened or what we did. MR KOOPEDI I will pass this point, Chairperson, then leave it for argument. Now when you made this physical contact with Betty, who did you say you were? I know you said in your evidence-in-chief that you were MK members, but who? What names did you give her, what credentials did you give her? MR JANTJIE I do not remember the name that I used, Chairperson, or what other people that were with me, the names that they used I don't remember, Chairperson. MR KOOPEDI And from which unit did you say you came from? MR JANTJIE We did not tell her about the unit from which we came. MR KOOPEDI And she also didn't want to know that? MR JANTJIE No, Chairperson, she was never interested in that. MR KOOPEDI Did she want to know at least from which front were you sent? MR JANTJIE Even if we did explain that to her, but I do not recall, but we tried to make her believe what we were saying to her. MR KOOPEDI So what you're saying is you don't know if she asked you those questions, is that what you're saying? MR LAX Sorry, just put the mike further away from you again, you just moved it about six inches forward. It's fine, it picks you up perfectly, don't you worry about it, it's a very sensitive mike. The closer you bring it to you the more it distorts. MR KOOPEDI The question which I - do you recall the question? CHAIRPERSON No, rather put it to save on time, Mr Koopedi. MR KOOPEDI The question asked was, are you saying that Betty asked you these questions, or she did not ask you these questions? MR JANTJIE She did not ask those questions, Chairperson. MR KOOPEDI Now are you telling this Honourable Committee that you went and met with a Commander of the Umkhonto weSizwe, a member of the ANC, a member of the South African Communist Party in Lesotho, told her that you are MK members and there to assist her, and she did not want to know who you were, where you came from, she just accepted you on your word? Is that what you want this Committee to believe? MR JANTJIE That is what I say, Chairperson. MR KOOPEDI I take it you would know that Betty had received military training, which would include training on intelligence, etcetera, etcetera? Did you know that at that time? MR JANTJIE I did not know until we met her. MR KOOPEDI You'd have assumed that she would still be a Commander without undergone those trainings? MR JANTJIE Which training are you referring to, Chairperson? I do not understand you. MR KOOPEDI Military training which is undergone by all MK cadres and which military training would include training on intelligence courses. MR JANTJIE I knew that she was a member of the MK and she had military training. MR KOOPEDI Now you say that when you spoke to Betty you discovered that she was disillusioned and had problems with the money she received from the ANC. Did she tell you how much was this money, the money that she was receiving from the ANC? MR JANTJIE She only said to us that the money that she's supposed to receive from the ANC always came late, but she never divulged any amount that she was receiving from the ANC. MR KOOPEDI You also didn't ask her what amount was she receiving? MR JANTJIE Chair, we did not ask. CHAIRPERSON Mr Koopedi, may I interpose here. When you said in your evidence-in-chief that the monies she received after paying rent, she remained with almost nothing, what did you mean? MR JANTJIE I was saying that from the money that she would receive, after paying the rent and giving some amounts to other people who were working with her, she would be left with nothing for her own problems, or obligations. CHAIRPERSON I'm asking you this, because your response to Mr Koopedi's question is that she complained about monies being received late, hence I asked you that question. But you may proceed, Mr Koopedi. MR KOOPEDI Thank you, Chairperson. You said in your evidence-in-chief that after making this contact with Betty, you introduced yourselves as MK and told her that you've come to assist her in her operations and also told her further that you had money enough to help her, is that correct? MR JANTJIE That is so, Chairperson. MR KOOPEDI Now at this point, were you able to tell her what form of assistance would you be giving her and her unit in the operations, other than the financial one? MR JANTJIE No, Chairperson, the only assistance that we talked about with her concerned only the finance. MR KOOPEDI There's something I don't understand, please assist me here. You go to Betty, you say to Betty that: "We are MK, we are here to assist you in your operations", am I right up to this far? MR JANTJIE That is so, Chairperson. MR KOOPEDI You say: "We are here to assist you and also have enough money to assist you". Now my question is that, other than this money, how else were you to assist her? MR JANTJIE She never asked that question and we never promised her any help apart from the money. MR KOOPEDI Now what you're saying is, between Betty and yourselves, at no stage did you talk about the operations which she was to carry, which you told her you were there to assist her with. She was not interested in those operations, she did not ask you anything else as to the logistics of those operations, is that what you're saying? MR JANTJIE That is what I say, Chairperson. MR KOOPEDI I find it strange, in that - perhaps I should leave that for argument. You said that she then agreed to work with you. After agreeing to work with you, when was the first time that you paid her money? MR JANTJIE Although I do not remember the date well, I think it's around December in 1987, it could be a week before Xmas. That means, it's before the 25th of December in that year. MR KOOPEDI Okay. Let me rephrase my question. Supposing it was a Wednesday, like today, you meet and recruit Betty, agree with her that she's going to - you have not recruited her at that stage, you tell her that you are fellow MK members. Now I want to know, from that day, this Wednesday, when was it that you first gave her money, how many days thereafter? Did you give her money on the Thursday you met with her? When did you give her money? MR JANTJIE No, we did not give her money on that same day, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON The question is, was it the first day, or how many days after you met her? Don't just confine yourself to the first day. MR JANTJIE I would say it could be three days after we have met with her for the first time. MR KOOPEDI Now was this before or after you had revealed your true identity to her? MR JANTJIE That is before, Chairperson. MR KOOPEDI So when she got the first payment, according to you she believed that you were legit, you were MK members at that stage? MR JANTJIE That is so, Chairperson. MR KOOPEDI And the second time when you gave her money, was it before or after you had revealed your true identity? MR JANTJIE I do not remember well, Chairperson. MR KOOPEDI Okay. Now what prompted you to reveal your true identity? MR JANTJIE That is after we have discovered what type of a person she was and after she had agreed that she will work with us. CHAIRPERSON No, no, she you can't work with you until you have revealed your true identity. You must listen to the flow of questions. The question you have been asked is, when you gave her the money which you say was three days after you first met and thereafter you can't remember when was the second time, and now when you say: "She was now able to tell us what kind of person she was. We had already revealed our true identity." I don't think it flows. Listen the questions, I don't think they are that difficult. Listen question, answer it as far as possible. I don't think at this stage that they have been trap questions for you, and I'm here to protect you. You can rest assured, if anything untoward is asked of you, I will protect you. So be free. I may not look that big, but I will protect you. MR KOOPEDI Perhaps let me go back to that question. What made you reveal your identity to her? What made you tell her that in fact you were not MK as you were claiming, but you were members of the South African Police? MR JANTJIE Like I have already explained, Chairperson, when we first met with her, in your discussions she knew that we were members of the MK. On our second meeting we had already discovered that this person would not be of danger to us if we reveal our true identity. The circumstances allowed us to reveal our true identities, because we had already met with her the first time and we had already discovered what type of person she was. MR KOOPEDI And what type of a person was she? MR JANTJIE We discovered that she was a person with whom we can work and we can reveal our true identity. MR KOOPEDI I'll pass this question. MR LAX Sorry, I'm not happy with your answer because you're not telling us anything. We're asking why did you think she was a person who you could reveal your identity to, then your answer is you thought she was a person, because she seemed to be the kind of person. What made you think that, what kind of personality did she have? Was she a grumpy person, was she a happy person, was she - what was it about her that made you feel you could disclose the fact, break your cover? MR JANTJIE Chairperson, I don't know how to explain this any further, because I am trying to explain as far as I possibly can. CHAIRPERSON Let me assist you, Mr Jantjie. In your evidence-in-chief you told us that you were using tactics which are only known to you people. Up to now we don't know what tactics you were using. Probably if you can start by telling us what tactics you were using, then we would understand how you discovered that this is a person you can work with. Because you left it hanging, you just said you were using your own tactics within the Security Branch, we don't know what those tactics are. Do you follow my reasoning? MR JANTJIE Yes, I do understand, Chairperson. In short Chairperson, I would say when you meet a person for the first time or for the second time, you were supposed to study that person well. If you have made an appointment with him at a certain place, if he did arrive to that place, that would be an indication to you that you and this person, you are together and you agree. If he does not up to that place, that will make you not to trust that person. CHAIRPERSON But those are not tactics peculiar to the Police, anybody else could do that. You said you were using your own tactics. I would also say make an appointment with you, if you don't turn up timeously or you don't indicate your lateness, I would conclude whichever way I do about you. It's not something peculiar to any institution, and in this respect the Police, it's not peculiar. MR JANTJIE As far as I'm concerned, Chairperson, I think those were some of the tactics that were peculiar to us, I did not think that other people, other than the Security Police were using the same tactics. MR LAX That's not a tactic, that's got nothing to do with being a tactic. Anybody would know that if you were late for a meeting, you were late. There might be a good reason why you're late. One of those reasons might be that you're suspicious and you don't trust the person, the other might be that your kombi didn't arrive on time, or your car broke down. That doesn't tell us anything about your tactics. What other tactics did you use? You see this is a very simple matter, what other tactics did you use? Are these secret matters you're sworn not to disclose? MR JANTJIE No, Chairperson, there are no other tactics. CHAIRPERSON Mr Koopedi, you may proceed. MR KOOPEDI Thank you, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON But there was one question which you asked Mr Koopedi, may I pursue that please. MR KOOPEDI Thank you, Judge. CHAIRPERSON You said you don't know when you returned to Lesotho, how much precisely she was given but it could not have been R250 for each one of them, do you recall that? MR JANTJIE That is so, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON On what basis were you thinking that not more than R250 would solve her financial problems? MR JANTJIE Chairperson, at that time my budget in the job that I was doing, we were not allowed to give a person the money more than this amount, so we tried to give her the maximum amount that was allowed to us. CHAIRPERSON Now you are speaking of your budget, are you speaking of your budget as I personally, you only, or the unit? MR JANTJIE I am referring to the money that will come from the office, not from me personally. CHAIRPERSON Because the money was taken out by Jagga, would you know whether Jagga was using the budget money you had been allocated, or he was using his personal money? If you can have regard to page 15H "When we dropped them off, Jagga gave her an amount of money for herself and for the other two persons. I cannot recall what the amount of money was, but it would have been approximately 250." You see that paragraph? MR JANTJIE That is so, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON So because it was for three people it was R750? Would I be right? It would have been R250 each. MR JANTJIE That is so, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Now before this - you'll forgive me, I'll keep on ...(indistinct) him for things that are not clear for me and that they should not escape me, that I should ask these questions at the end of your cross-examination. But allow me to ask you this. When you first made contact with her physically, that is Betty Boom, with whom were you? MR JANTJIE I was with Jagga. CHAIRPERSON Mr Jagga is a white man? MR JANTJIE That is so, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON And when you introduced yourself to Betty Boom as MK, did you include Mr Jagga also as an MK member? MR JANTJIE That is so, Chairperson, he also introduced himself. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. You may proceed, Mr Koopedi. MR KOOPEDI Thank you, Chairperson. After Betty "had agreed" to work with you, you said in your evidence-in-chief that she gave you information on activists in Cape Town and activists in the Free State and even their operations, which information led to the arrest of these people, am I correct? MR JANTJIE That is so, Chairperson. MR KOOPEDI Now what is this information, who in Cape Town was arrested and for what? And the same question stands for Free State. MR JANTJIE As far as I can recall, Chairperson, the reports were sent to Cape Town and Bloemfontein. When the results were sent back from those branches, it became evident to us that certain people had been arrested following the information that we got from her. MR KOOPEDI I don't accept that. Betty gives you information about certain people, she tells you that there is so and so who is in Cape Town, who is performing this operation. Now what I want to know is, who was in Cape Town and what was the operation that led to their arrest? MR JANTJIE Chairperson, she wrote the names down, but I can no longer remember those names because I never used those names again. MR KOOPEDI I take it you were also not present in any arrests of any of these people? MR JANTJIE That is so, Chairperson. MR KOOPEDI So you do not have first-hand knowledge as to whether anyone was arrested, am I correct? MR JANTJIE I know that people were arrested as a result of the information we got form Betty. MR KOOPEDI The question was, you do not have first-hand information that these people were arrested? CHAIRPERSON What Mr Koopedi is putting to you is that you do not know it as a fact, other than what you have been told. MR JANTJIE That is so, Chairperson. MR KOOPEDI Now at this stage, after Betty had told you about the people, the activists in Cape Town, the activists in the Free State and reports being written out, how much did you pay her for that? Or did you pay her for that? MR JANTJIE No, it was not yet the time, Chairperson. MR KOOPEDI And did she accept that, that she would tell you or give the information that you want and that you don't pay her? She didn't query that? MR JANTJIE She did not complain, Chairperson. Let me explain this question of payment, Chairperson. When the person starts working as your informer he'll give you information and then you would take that information, write it down on a daily basis, then after he has been a registered informer, it's then that now you can claim money for him in accordance with the job that he has done for you. Betty disappeared while we had already claimed money for her, but she was unable to receive that money because she had disappeared then. MR LAX How much money did you claim for her? MR JANTJIE Chairperson, I do not remember the amount. MR LAX Well was it a couple of thousand, was it a few hundred? Surely you remember that. MR JANTJIE It could not be a thousand, Chairperson, it could be a couple of hundreds. MR LAX Well, she led you to - well, not you personally but the police, to arrest a number of MK activists, according to you. MR JANTJIE That is so, Chairperson. MR KOOPEDI Surely there were rewards to be claimed for those arrests and those rewards would be in the thousands, not in the hundreds? MR JANTJIE No, Chairperson, not as far as I know. MR LAX Well, the minimum reward was R750, but there was more than one person, that would have been a lot of money. We know that, we've heard it in other cases, it's nothing special, it's no secret. Or is it that you were pocketing the difference and paying her R250? MR JANTJIE No, Chairperson. MR LAX Well then what happened to however much times R750? MR JANTJIE No, Chairperson, I know nothing about that R750 you're referring to. MR LAX Yes. What did you do with the monies that you had claimed for her? MR JANTJIE We sent it back to our Headquarters. MR LAX Please carry on, Mr Koopedi. MR KOOPEDI Thank you, Chairperson. And at some stage Betty said to you that she thinks that she's being suspected by the ANC. Now what I need to know is, when was this? Did she tell you this before you brought her to Ladybrand, or after? MR JANTJIE That is before we took her to Ladybrand, Chairperson. MR KOOPEDI And if I understand correctly, the reasons for you to go and take her from Lesotho in the manner that you did, was to try and counter that perception, is that correct? MR JANTJIE No, Chairperson. MR KOOPEDI What was the reason for taking her from Lesotho to Ladybrand? MR JANTJIE Our decision was to take her to Ladybrand, so that we could go and fetch those people whom she thought that they suspected her that she was working with us. MR KOOPEDI If I understand you correctly, the reason for going to Lesotho and "abducting" Betty, was to try and convince some people that in fact she has been abducted and she did not walk on her own and she has no links with the Security Forces. Is that it? MR JANTJIE That is so, Chairperson. MR KOOPEDI Right. You then took her - perhaps if you could explain what actually happened when you took her, or when she got into your car. In your evidence-in-chief you state that you found her not far from her house, you indicated the street just behind me, which I believe Chairperson, could be about not more than a hundred metres. Now what I want to know is, when you met her just next to her house, what happened, did you drag her into the car, did she go into the car on her own, what happened? MR JANTJIE No, we did not drag her to the car, she came voluntarily into the car. MR KOOPEDI And when you drove off, was there a spinning of tyres, or you just drove off normally and went to your destination? MR JANTJIE No, we just drove normally from that place. MR LAX Can I just interpose if you'll allow me, just one thing. I wasn't clear about this, but had you arranged to meet her at a specific time and on a specific date, in order for you to do this abduction? MR JANTJIE That is so, Chairperson. MR LAX So she was waiting with her bag, ready for you to fetch her, basically? MR JANTJIE No, Chairperson, when we arrived there she came to us. MR LAX Yes, but she must have been waiting if you'd arranged the time and the date and the place. MR JANTJIE Yes, I agree, Chairperson. MR KOOPEDI What was the arrangement? Was the arrangement that when you came for her there would be witnesses to see the abduction? MR JANTJIE No, Chairperson, we didn't make that arrangement, we didn't want people to see that we were abducting her. MR KOOPEDI Now how would it look like an abduction if no-one is arranged or tipped off to witness that, if no force is used to get her into the car? If the car drives off as normally as everybody does, how would that look like an abduction? MR JANTJIE We arranged that if there were people in that area, one of us would drag her to the car. MR KOOPEDI Did you know that there are people there or not? MR JANTJIE It could happen Chairperson, because we were going to fetch her on the street. MR KOOPEDI Yes, but my question is, when you got to this meeting point, did you check to see if there were people around? MR JANTJIE There were no people in the surroundings, Chairperson. MR KOOPEDI Okay, but I'll go back to the initial question. How would people know that this was an abduction if there has been no prior arrangement to have witnesses to it, if there's no force and there's no indication that something untoward is happening? How did you hope to send the message across? MR JANTJIE They will notice the way she is put in the car, it will look as if she did not do that voluntarily. If there were people in the surroundings. MR KOOPEDI I'll pass this. MR LAX Don't give up so easily. You wanted to give the impression that you were abducting her, correct? MR JANTJIE That is so, Chairperson. MR LAX Even if people didn't see her go, surely you would have wanted somebody to see that happened, so that somebody could say so and so has been abducted? Otherwise what's the point? MR JANTJIE No, Chairperson, that as not our aim to make people think that we have abducted her. CHAIRPERSON Have regard to page 10 of the papers "We immediately had discussions with her and eventually jointly agreed that she would come to the Republic of South Africa in an operation that had to appear similar to an abduction and that afterwards we had to attempt to recruit all the other members of her cell as informers." MR LAX Now the internal logic of that statement is completely a contradiction in terms. And I say that to you on this basis, is that if it appeared she had been abducted, none of her colleagues would have wanted to go and be abducted too, because they'd all be terrified, because their Commander had been abducted. So how could you make it look like you were abducting her, as a way of getting other people to be recruited with her? It just doesn't make sense at all. CHAIRPERSON Because it goes further, the sentence, just to complete the paragraph "For apparent reasons it would limit her risks as an informer." MR JANTJIE That is so, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON But what you have been asked here is, if you come there, there's nobody who sees her, she comes, walks into the car, you drive off normally, how would that now limit her risk as an informer? How would that risk limit that? Because what I understand you to be saying is that when you realised that she was becoming doubtful, that you arranged this so-called abduction and the reason therefore was that people must see that no, she has been abducted and people will suspect her to be an informer, that she has been abducted by other people. That's my understanding. But you are asked that, if none, because from what you've been asked by Mr Koopedi, there is no indication that that "abduction" took place. It was prearranged and nobody was there, she came voluntarily and the car drove off normally. MR JANTJIE I will explain it in this way, Chairperson. In trying to make it appear as if Betty has been abducted, our aim was that if there were other people in her cell in the surroundings, it should look to them as if Betty has been abducted. That is why when we realised that there were no people in the surrounding, she came voluntarily into the car and drove with us. We did not intend to make it look to anybody on the street, look as if Betty had been abducted, because we had already information that there was already a suspicion that she was working with us. We wanted it to look as if we have abducted her, she did not come with us voluntarily. CHAIRPERSON Because this was prearranged, why didn't you make it that she calls one of her cells mates to be present and you stage this abduction? Because we've heard, if I follow you, it's that even this particular day this was prearranged with Betty. I don't know if I'm mistaken about that. MR JANTJIE That is so, Chairperson, we could not arrange for one of the people in her cell to be present, because we had not yet reached that point where we could know the whereabouts of other members of her cell. CHAIRPERSON You see what surprises my colleague here and Mr Koopedi, is that now how would people know that Betty had been abducted, because you wanted to dispel these suspicions that she was an informer working with you people? Now this prearranged rendezvous and picking up time would appear to be meaningless, because it would appear Betty left with other people she knows. You see the difficulty they are having and that now comes back to me. MR JANTJIE Chairperson, what I'm saying is what we decided upon, myself and the people who were working with me. MR LAX You see you didn't know, for example, and surely you must have considered this, you must have considered that because she was under suspicion, that somebody would be keeping her under surveillance. Isn't that logical to assume? MR JANTJIE No, Chairperson, we didn't make an arrangement for that. MR LAX Well you see, it didn't even occur to you as part of your plan. Is that what you're saying? MR JANTJIE We didn't make such arrangements Chairperson, as you say. MR LAX I'm saying it didn't even occur to you that she might be under surveillance by her own people. MR JANTJIE No, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Now this information which you received that she might be suspected to an informer, where did you get that from? MR JANTJIE The first person that we used as our informer is the person who told us that Betty is having problems about her co-comrades who had a suspicion on her that she was working with the people from the Republic of South Africa. CHAIRPERSON Now because she was now your informer as well, did you approach Betty with this information, and what was her response? MR JANTJIE She was also surprised by this, Chairperson. MR LAX She was surprised by this information? MR JANTJIE That is so, Chairperson, because it seems as if she also had a bit of information about that. MR LAX Well you see you told us earlier that she told you herself that she was under suspicion. You told us that clearly and I asked you a couple of questions about that at the time. So how could she be surprised if she was the one who was telling you that? MR JANTJIE What I'm trying to explain, Chairperson, is that the news that we were telling her is something that she already knew at the time. CHAIRPERSON But you've just said to us she was surprised by this kind of information, Mr Jantjie. Just a minute ago you told us that. MR JANTJIE Yes, I do agree with you, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Now how can you say this was within her knowledge as well, when she was surprised by this information? MR JANTJIE In short Chairperson, I would say Betty also had information that she was suspected, we also had that information, so that made her realise that the information that she had about the suspicion on her, it's the same information that we also had about this suspicion. CHAIRPERSON You may proceed. We are sorry to take this long Mr Koopedi, in interposing. We beg your pardon. MR KOOPEDI Thank you, Chairperson. Can you tell us from whom did you obtain this information that Betty's position as an informer might become known amongst her comrades? MR JANTJIE That is our informer in Lesotho. MR KOOPEDI Now did this informer know that Betty was your informer? MR JANTJIE No, Chairperson. MR KOOPEDI But this informer was able to say to you Betty's being suspected as an informer? Is that your evidence? MR JANTJIE That is what I'm saying, Chairperson. MR KOOPEDI Now when you received this information concerning Betty's position and what may be revealed, where were you? Were you in Lesotho or were you in South Africa? MR JANTJIE Chairperson, we would meet with this informer in Lesotho and in South Africa, but I remember at that time we were in Ladybrand in South Africa. MR KOOPEDI Was this at the farm? MR JANTJIE No, Chairperson, in town, Ladybrand. MR KOOPEDI Now after receiving this information, how long did it take you to get to Betty and tell her that you have information that her position might be revealed? MR JANTJIE If I remember well we went there the following day. MR KOOPEDI That is the following day. After discussing this matter with Betty, when did the abduction take place? How long after discussing with Betty? MR JANTJIE It could be a day after or two days after, Chairperson. MR KOOPEDI And with whom amongst your colleagues or leaders, with whom did you discuss this matter? MR JANTJIE Everything concerning Betty involved myself, Jagga, Robertshaw and Mr Thulo. MR KOOPEDI Now you're saying that this matter was discussed with your senior, and is it your evidence that your senior also agreed with the plan that "go to Lesotho, if there's no-one on the street let her come in willingly into the car, but we want it to look like an abduction"? Is that what your superiors agreed with? MR JANTJIE Everything that we discussed we reached an agreement about it. MR KOOPEDI Okay. You are now at the farm - perhaps just before that, before you actually "abduct" her, did you know ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON It is in quotes. He's also put it in quotes, page 10. MR KOOPEDI I prefer putting an emphasis on that, Chairperson. And perhaps one might explain why. My understanding of abduction is that it has to do with the taking away of a minor with the intention to marry that minor or to have sexual intercourse with that minor without the parents' permission, and that is why at all times ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON No, no, what I was simply saying to you is, he's also put the abduction in quotes on page 10, the third paragraph. That "daai ontvoor" is in inverted commas. That's all I was saying. MR KOOPEDI Thank you, Chairperson. Now before ...(intervention) MR LAX Sorry, let's just say this Mr Koopedi, that the Act, our statute uses the word "abduction" within the context of a gross violation of human rights. It's a gross violation of human rights. It's defined as killing, abduction, torture and other severe ill-treatment of a human being. And so it's, I think within that context that one is then using the term, not in its legal/technical/criminal law context, which is in terms of minors and that sort of issue. MR KOOPEDI Thank you, I'm indebted Chairperson. Now before this abduction, did you have information on Betty's cell, the number of people in that cell, their names? MR JANTJIE We knew everything about Betty, following the information that we got from our informer. MR KOOPEDI I am referring to the cell or the unit which Betty was commanding, do you know who else was in that unit? MR JANTJIE No, Chairperson, we didn't know. MR KOOPEDI And you didn't ask Betty this? MR JANTJIE She told us about the cell herself. MR KOOPEDI But when was that, when did she tell you about the cell? MR JANTJIE That is when we were already at the farm. MR KOOPEDI Now here's my question. Before taking her out of Lesotho, you had no knowledge, or did you have any knowledge on the cell she had, the number of people in her cell, their names, their ages, their capabilities. Did you anything about Betty's cell? MR JANTJIE No, Chairperson, there was nothing that we knew about Betty's cell at that time. MR KOOPEDI What I find strange is that at some stage you agreed, or you promise Betty to help her, tell her that you are MK, you have been sent in to assist her, when in fact you don't know how many people are in her cell. From your evidence you don't even know that there's anyone in the cell, how would she have believed you all along? MR JANTJIE Chairperson, what was of importance to us was to get the names of the people who were already in the country and where they were situated in the country and what they were doing in the country. MR KOOPEDI So you were not interested in knowing about her cell, you were only interested in knowing what she knows about the people in the country? MR JANTJIE We would only know about Betty's cell afterwards, what was important to us were the people who were already in the country. MR KOOPEDI Chairperson, I don't know if this would be an appropriate time for an adjournment and if so, what directions do we take? CHAIRPERSON Are you saying adjournment for the day, or a short adjournment? MR KOOPEDI I normally hear you are very particular about other participants in the process every time it strikes 4 o'clock, and I was referring to an appropriate time for an adjournment for the day. CHAIRPERSON No, I indicated earlier today when we met that we would go up to five. Yes, when we were in chambers, I don't know if you heard me. You were present. MR KOOPEDI Yes, I was. Therefore it's not an appropriate time? CHAIRPERSON No, no. MR KOOPEDI I can relax. Thank you, Chairperson. MR VISSER What about a short adjournment? CHAIRPERSON Ja no, we could have a short adjournment. We'll adjourn for five minutes. COMMITTEE ADJOURNS ON RESUMPTION MR JANTJIE (s.u.o.) CHAIRPERSON Thank you, we took more than the five minutes I had promised before we would restart. I have indications that Mr Koopedi is still going to be very long with Mr Jantjie and I see no reason why we should sit later than this if he's not going to complete his cross-examination today. We will adjourn this matter until tomorrow morning at 9a.m. So I formally adjourn for the day. COMMITTEE ADJOURNS