amntrans AMNESTY HEARINGS 2000-10-12 JOHANNESBURG 2 https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=54546&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/2000/201012jb.htm CHAIRPERSON: Good morning everybody. Today is the 12th October 2000, and it's the continuation of the applications of Antonie Jagga and three others. Mr Jantjie was still testifying and he was under cross-examination. LESIZI MICHAEL JANTJIE (s.u.o.) CHAIRPERSON Mr Koopedi, you were busy cross-examining, may you proceed. CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR KOOPEDI (cont) Thank you, Chairperson. Mr Jantjie, when you were making your trips into Lesotho, almost on a daily basis as you say, were you using different cars, were you using the same cars? MR JANTJIE Chairperson, we were using two cars. MR KOOPEDI So it's only two cars that you used? MR JANTJIE Yes, Chairperson, as far as I can recall. MR KOOPEDI Would you be able to remember whether the car you used to go and fetch Betty, is the same car that was used when you went to fetch Nomasonto? MR JANTJIE Yes, Chairperson, we used the same car. MR KOOPEDI Now what I need to understand is, your taking of Betty was supposed to look like an abduction, now what why would you use the same car, the car in which you abducted Betty, to go and fetch Nomasonto? Didn't you think that would cause suspicion? MR JANTJIE Chairperson, I think I said that we used two different cars to fetch Betty and Nomasonto. MR LAX No, you said that they were the same car. That was your evidence. He asked you "Did you use different cars to do this?" you said yes, you used two cars. then he said: "Was the car that you used to fetch Betty, the same as the car that you used to fetch Nomasonto?" you said: "Yes." MR JANTJIE Chairperson, I said I think they were two different cars. MR LAX Well that's not what we heard. MR JANTJIE Chairperson, I said they were two different cars. MR KOOPEDI That's not what you said, but ...(intervention) MR LAX Was there a translation problem, Mr Interpreter? Sorry, I'm speaking to you, Mr Interpreter. INTERPRETER Yes, Chairperson, I think we used the same car and I think Mr Brian Koopedi did hear that. MR KOOPEDI The Interpreter is right, because at that time I didn't have my headphones on so I was listening directly to his responses in Sesotho, and the response was "We used the same car." MR LAX Thank you. MR KOOPEDI I will pass that point, Chairperson. Now you told this Honourable Committee that initially yourself and Mr Jagga masqueraded yourselves as criminals, you again masqueraded yourselves as MK combatants. You again conduct a this abduction, didn't you think this sounds strange? How can you have the same people in the same vicinity, dealing with the same people, appearing in different versions? MR JANTJIE No, Chairperson, to us it was not surprising because that was per arrangement that we made beforehand. CHAIRPERSON Could you listen to the question now. You are answering to the abduction, he's stating to you that at first when you approached Betty Boom - or rather, if I follow you correctly Mr Koopedi, you say the first time they approached Betty Boom? MR KOOPEDI That's right and said they were criminals, criminals from South Africa. CHAIRPERSON Criminals who ran away from South Africa. MR KOOPEDI That is so. CHAIRPERSON And wanted refuge in Lesotho, and secondly, you then said you were MK members and thereafter you conducted the abduction, understand it in that context. MR JANTJIE Yes, I do understand, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Could you now - I think your response is, if I'm not mistaken, ...(indistinct) on the ...(indistinct) question, was it not strange? If I'm not wrong. MR JANTJIE Yes, that is what I said, Chairperson. MR VISSER Chairperson, do allow me to intervene by saying that the evidence was not that they told Betty Boom that they were criminals, the evidence as I understood it was, I think ...(indistinct) they used two types of masquerades, the one when they went to the bars where people were drinking, they used that and also they told other people ...(indistinct - no microphone) that they were MKs. But I didn't understand the evidence to be that they told Betty both those. Perhaps that can just be cleared. CHAIRPERSON Ja, I think that should be cleared, because they at first went to bars where they would be known as criminals. But clear it up, what actually happened when they eventually approached Betty. MR KOOPEDI Okay. Let me as the question this way. Did you tell Betty that you were criminals who were seeking refuge in Maseru or in Lesotho? MR JANTJIE No, Chairperson. MR KOOPEDI Okay. Now when you gave evidence - or maybe let me say this, you said that Betty phoned Tax Sejanamane, arranged that you will come and pick him up, even told Tax the type of car you'll be driving in. Did I hear you correct? MR JANTJIE That is so, Chairperson. MR KOOPEDI Now I seem to understand your statement - which is on page 11 of the bundle of documents, Chairperson, the first paragraph, to say that the minute, that is when you were with Tax, you found him and you then asked him to accompany you to the Republic, and the minute you mentioned Betty's name, he relaxed and he came voluntarily with you. Why would you need to mention Betty's name if in fact there is a pre-arrangement that you will be coming to pick him up? MR JANTJIE It was just to make certain to him that we were the people that Betty told him about. MR KOOPEDI Now what do you mean when you say - I'll read it in Afrikaans "He relaxed" Was he not relaxed before you mentioned Betty's name? MR JANTJIE Chairperson, because he did not know us I would say he was not relaxed. MR KOOPEDI Okay. What happened when you crossed the border with Tax, did you at this time produce any passports, or did you just pass as you normally do without being asked any uncomfortable questions? MR JANTJIE That is so, Chairperson, we used the same method as before, like we did when we went to fetch Betty and Nomasonto. We were not asked any questions and we were not asked about the person who was accompanying us. MR KOOPEDI And this did not worry Tax, the fact that you are able to pass through borders without being asked for passports? MR JANTJIE No, Chairperson. MR KOOPEDI Did you have to tell Tax who you were? Did you tell Tax whether you were MKs sent by Betty, or you didn't have to say anything, you just had to say: "Betty sent us to pick you up"? MR JANTJIE Yes, that is what we said, Chairperson. MR KOOPEDI What did you say, did you tell Tax that you were MK people, or you did not tell him that you were MK people? MR JANTJIE No, Chairperson, we did not tell him that we were members of the MK. MR KOOPEDI Now I want you to - perhaps this is asking for your opinion, I want you to tell me whether - we did not raise anybody's suspicion and in particular an MK member who is in Lesotho who has run away from South Africa, would this person not to be worried to be accompanied by people who would just cross the border without being asked questions, without him also producing a passport? Didn't you think this would have worried anybody, any normal person? MR JANTJIE Yes, Chairperson, I think he should have suspected, but he would also think that these people have already made arrangements before with the people in Lesotho and the people in the Republic of South Africa. MR LAX Sorry Mr Koopedi, can I just interpose here. What did you tell him, who you were? MR JANTJIE We explained to him that we are the people who were sent by Betty, as per arrangements they have made with Betty. So we crossed the border from Lesotho into the Republic of South Africa, straight to the farm. MR LAX But here's an MK guy confronted by two whites and two blacks and he just accepts your word for it, he's not suspicious at all, you just mention her name and it's like a magic wand, he just comes with you. Is that how it happened? MR JANTJIE Yes, Chairperson, that is how it happened. CHAIRPERSON Without further introduction, other than that "we are the people Betty spoke about"? Just that "Betty said we should fetch you" and that's it, you don't make any further identification? MR JANTJIE That is so, Chairperson. MR LAX Had you arranged the specific time and place at which you would collect him? MR JANTJIE That is so, Chairperson. MR LAX So he was waiting there for a specific vehicle to come at a specific time to a specific place? MR JANTJIE That is so, Chairperson. MR KOOPEDI Okay, let's go back to Nomasonto, there's something I need to clear. You did not phone her, there was no pre-arrangement that would be coming for her, is that correct? MR JANTJIE That is so, Chairperson. MR KOOPEDI Now you had a day or so ago abducted Betty, and the intention was to make sure that people would see it as an abduction, is that correct? MR JANTJIE That is so, Chairperson. MR KOOPEDI Now why would then Nomasonto listen to you when you are the people who abducted in daylight, when people could be seeing you abducting Betty, why would Nomasonto listen to you? MR JANTJIE It is because, Chairperson, we went to Nomasonto with the messages that we got from Betty. We said to her: "Betty said we should come collect you", and when she heard that we know Betty, she did not have any problem to go with us. MR LAX You didn't just say: "Betty said we must come and fetch you", you said to her: "Betty said we must come and fetch you to Ladybrand". And not only must you fetch her to Ladybrand, but you take her child with. CHAIRPERSON No, she decided about the child. MR LAX Yes, but - whichever way, she now takes the child with to go and see Betty in South Africa. MR JANTJIE That is so, Chairperson. MR LAX And then you went through the border and there was nobody stopping you, she didn't get suspicious about that? MR JANTJIE No, Chairperson, she did not suspect anything and nobody stopped us at the border. MR LAX So nobody wanted to see her travel document, to see the child's travel document? MR JANTJIE No, Chairperson. MR KOOPEDI Where did you find Nomasonto? MR JANTJIE We found her at a place called Ditabaneng. MR KOOPEDI Was it at a house, a flat, a hotel? MR JANTJIE It was at a flat, because there was a cluster of flats there, she was renting a flat there. MR SIBANYONI Excuse me, Mr Koopedi. If, when you took Betty away, you made it appear to be an abduction, the word would have spread around Maseru and especially to the people close to Betty, that she had been abducted, how do you expect Nomasonto not to know about that, as much as Tax? MR JANTJIE No, Chairperson, we expected that they did not know. MR SIBANYONI But your intention when you took Betty, you wanted that any person who sees that or heard about that, should understand that she has been abducted, is that correct? MR JANTJIE That is so, Chairperson. MR LAX Isn't it so that you actually wanted them to? You wanted them to know that she'd been abducted, that was the whole object of the exercise. You confirmed that the last time ...(intervention) MR JANTJIE That is so, Chairperson. MR KOOPEDI Now you are now at the farm with Nomasonto, what was said to her that made her agree to work for you? What was given to her? MR JANTJIE We had already arranged with Betty, and our agreement was that Betty would try to convince her to work with us because Betty had already agreed to work with us. In other words, what I'm saying is that we were using Betty, so that she could be able to convince these other people that came after her. MR KOOPEDI But what I want to know is, what was it that was said to Nomasonto, or even Tax? What was it that was said to them by Betty, that made them agree to work for you? MR JANTJIE When we arrived at the farm we explained ourselves to these people, we told them that we were working for the South African Police, in the Security Branch. So we asked that we should use them against the organisation that they belonged to, that is the ANC, so that we could be able to get information about the activities of that organisation in the Republic of South Africa. CHAIRPERSON When Betty eventually spoke to them, were you present when she did that? MR JANTJIE Yes, Chairperson, I was present and Tony Jagga was present. Sometimes one of us will go outside and the other one will remain inside and listen. So I would say I was present. MR LAX And you were present just to make sure they didn't hatch some plot against you, isn't that so? You didn't exactly trust them. MR JANTJIE Not that we did not trust them Chairperson, because we have agreed that we will use Betty to recruit these people. So it was important for us that one of us should be present when Betty speaks to these people. MR LAX Why was it important that one of you should be there? If you trusted her, why did you have to be there at all? MR JANTJIE I would say we trusted Betty because we had met with her on several occasions before, but because myself and Tony were involved in this recruitment exercise, it was important that one of us should be present. MR LAX Why? That's what I'm asking you and you can't give me an explanation. Surely it would have been easier to leave them together, so Betty could convince them and then bring them to you? They knew her, they trusted her, they didn't you at all. MR JANTJIE No, Chairperson, I do not agree with you. MR LAX What do you mean you don't agree with me? Did they know you? Did Nomasonto know you? MR JANTJIE No, she did not know us, it was for the first time that she saw us when we went to collect her. MR LAX Yes. And did Tax know you? MR JANTJIE No, Chairperson, he did not know us, it was for the first time that he saw us that day. MR LAX So again, why was it necessary for one of you to be present while they were talking? MR JANTJIE One of us, or both of us should be present because we had already started discussions with them. It would be difficult for us if we did not know how the discussions between them and Betty went. So it was important that we both - or one of us is present. MR LAX Yes, you wanted to be sure, amongst other things, that Betty wasn't playing a double game with you, that she wasn't working a plan so that these guys would be safe. Isn't that part of why you wanted to listen to what was being said? MR JANTJIE Chairperson, we were already trusting Betty, so we did not suspect that she would turn against us. MR LAX So that didn't even enter your mind? CHAIRPERSON But do you recall saying that the reason why Betty was, or rather the abduction of Betty was because she was already suspected by her colleagues? MR JANTJIE Yes, I do remember, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON And wouldn't it make sense that when Betty was speaking to the others who you later fetched from Lesotho, that whilst she was speaking to them, you had to be present? MR JANTJIE It could be so, Chairperson, but I would say we did not know anything about those people that we have fetched after Betty. For example, we did not know whether Nomasonto knew how Betty was taken from Lesotho. I would agree with you Chairperson, in that it could be one of the reasons why we should be present, or one of us should be present during the discussion. CHAIRPERSON You may proceed, Mr Koopedi. MR KOOPEDI Thank you, Chairperson. This flat where you fetched Nomasonto, what was the access like to the residence, do you have to pass through a gate, do you pass through securities, what was the access like? MR JANTJIE The place where Nomasonto stayed, Chairperson, there were about 10 flats there and there was a fence, a security fence which was more than six metres high and there was also a gate. There was only gate, one big gate which was used by the cars. So when we arrived there that gate was not closed and it was not manned by security. MR KOOPEDI What time was it, what time of day was it? MR JANTJIE It could be between 10 o'clock in the morning and 12 o'clock midday. MR KOOPEDI And what time was it when you abducted Betty? MR JANTJIE I think it was after 5 o'clock, although I do not recall precisely, but it could have been 5 o'clock in the afternoon. MR KOOPEDI All this was done during the day, am I correct? All the abductions and the fetchings were done during the day, broad daylight. MR JANTJIE I would say we fetched Betty after 5 o'clock. Well I don't remember whether it was 6p.m. or not. MR KOOPEDI Was it dark when you fetched Betty? When you abducted her, was it dark? MR JANTJIE It was not yet dark, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON It's summer, Mr Koopedi. MR KOOPEDI Thank you, Chairperson, there might have been clouds and the place ...(indistinct) Who was with Nomasonto? MR JANTJIE I think when we arrived there it was only her and the child. MR KOOPEDI Were there any people moving around in those flats? MR JANTJIE I would say so, Chairperson. MR KOOPEDI Okay. Now when you then talked to Nomasonto, what did you say to her, who did you say you are? MR JANTJIE Chairperson, I don't remember whether I explained my name to them, but I am not saying that I introduced myself as somebody else to them. MR KOOPEDI Okay. But then you still ...(intervention) MR LAX Sorry, who's them? You said you're not sure if you introduced yourself to them. I thought it was just Nomasonto and a baby. You can't introduce yourself to a baby, so who is the other person that you introduced yourself to, the people? MR JANTJIE Chairperson, I was referring to all these people that we went to fetch in Lesotho. MR LAX But we're talking about a specific instance of fetching Nomasonto here, we're not talking about the others at the moment. He's asking you what did you say to her, not what did you say to them. MR JANTJIE Well Chairperson, I don't remember the name that I used. MR LAX You haven't answered my question. Why do you use the plural when we're talking about one person? MR JANTJIE Chairperson, at that time I was including Betty, Tax Sejanamane and Nomasonto. MR LAX But you've just been asked if there were other people present and you've just said "Yes, there were people in the flats, but she was just herself and the child". and then: "What did you say to her?" Just please concentrate if you're going to answer the question, otherwise we'll get this confusion again and again. MR KOOPEDI Now you may not recall whether you gave Nomasonto any name or not, but what I want to know is, who did you say you were, where did you come from? MR JANTJIE We told Nomasonto that we were sent by Betty to come and fetch her. MR KOOPEDI You didn't tell her who you were, where did you come from, whether you were MK, whether you were criminals? You didn't tell her any of those things? MR JANTJIE No, Chairperson, we did not tell her. MR KOOPEDI And she didn't want to know any of those? MR JANTJIE No, Chairperson. MR KOOPEDI What strikes me as strange is that it seems Betty's name was a magic wand, you say to Nomasonto, a member of Betty's cell, Betty who has just been abducted a few days ago, a day or two ago, you go to Nomasonto, you are the same abductors of her Commander, you just mention Betty's name, voila, she comes with you, she even takes her child. Don't you think that is strange? MR JANTJIE No, Chairperson, it doesn't seem strange to me. MR KOOPEDI And the same thing can be said of the fetching of Tax, you mention Betty's name, this is perhaps three or more days thereafter, Betty's disappearance has got to be known, it's actually not a disappearance, an abduction which was done during daylight, but you just said to Tax: "Now we are sent by Betty", and voila, he agrees to go with you. Do you think that's not strange? MR JANTJIE No, it doesn't seem strange to me, Chairperson. MR KOOPEDI Well my instructions are to put to you that your version is a fabrication, it's not true. And to tell you why I put this to you, Betty Boom was a highly trained MK cadre, she was a Commander of a cell, within that cell she commanded highly trained MK soldiers, but you come before this Committee and say that this highly trained MK cadre, member of the SACP and also a person who sits on the Central Committee of the SACP, you've only paid, according to your version, you've only paid her two times and amounts not more than R250, and for that she betrayed herself, sold out comrades in Cape Town, sold out the operations in Cape Town, sold out the operations in the Free State, and it is on these basis that I'm instructed to put to you that your version is not true, it's not correct. CHAIRPERSON No, Chairperson, they are not correct. MR KOOPEDI I'm not sure what is not correct, your version? MR LAX Sorry, are you saying that his clients are not correct in saying that your version is not correct? MR JANTJIE ...(no translation) CHAIRPERSON Mr Koopedi, that was a little compound, could you break it down so that when he responds we get precisely what he's responding to. MR KOOPEDI Okay. I'll just put this to you, that your version is incorrect on the basis of the little profile that I've given you of Betty and what you gave to Betty to buy her. My instructions are that your version is incorrect and it is in fact an insult to the intelligence of Betty. MR JANTJIE Chairperson, I am saying I'm telling the truth here. CHAIRPERSON Did you know this profile that for instance, you knew that she was the Commander? Did you know how the others were trained? That is Tax and Nomasonto. MR JANTJIE Yes, we did know, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Did you know that she was also a member of the South African Communist Party, that is Betty Boom? Did you know that? MR JANTJIE No, we did not know that, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Did you know that she was sitting on the High Command of - I mean the Central Committee of the ANC? Did you know that? MR JANTJIE No, we did not know, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Oh, I beg your pardon, SACP, not ANC. SACP. Did you know that? MR VISSER No, you were right the first time. It was specifically put "the ANC", by my learned friend. CHAIRPERSON No, SACP. Mr Lax corrected me, I thought I heard ANC, but ... MR VISSER I'm quite sure that what was spoken about by Mr Koopedi when he divided his question up he said "I'm not talking about MK, I'm talking about the ANC" then he said: "And then, do you know what her position was in MK?" I think you were correct, Chairperson, and Mr Lax, with great respect, was wrong. CHAIRPERSON Ja, that's what I heard. MR KOOPEDI And perhaps for clarification, the ANC in its structures does not have anything called a Central Committee or a Central Command, that's the SACP ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON No, no, I supposed to avoid argument let's restate it, it might be just a slip of the lips, not the tongue. MR VISSER My attorney agrees with Mr Lax. I'm sorry if I'm wrong, Chairperson. MR KOOPEDI Tell me about this farm, where is this farm exactly, you said it's some 20 kilometres from Ladybrand, but where? If I want to go to that farm, how do I go there? MR JANTJIE Chairperson, from Ladybrand using the main road to Clocolan, it can be about 15 to 16 kilometres from Ladybrand towards Clocolan. There is a farm there on the right side and you turn there and then from there you travel about six kilometres and that farm is in that area. MR KOOPEDI Do you know the name of that farm? MR JANTJIE No, I don't know the name of that farm, Chairperson. MR KOOPEDI Do you know the Erf number or any number of that farm? MR JANTJIE No, Chairperson. MR KOOPEDI When last were you at this farm? MR JANTJIE That was in 1987, Chairperson, in December. MR KOOPEDI How long had you worked at this farm? MR JANTJIE We worked at that farm when we went there with Betty Boom for the first time and we stopped going to that farm when we took them back to Lesotho. MR KOOPEDI So you were actually there for a short while? MR JANTJIE That is so, Chairperson. MR KOOPEDI Now what I need to understand, and perhaps finally on the Betty Boom issue, why would you then return Betty Boom to Lesotho when initially you abducted her because she might not be safe? Why would you then return her to Lesotho? MR JANTJIE It is because we had already finished recruiting the other people, the people that she gave their names to us and we went to fetch them. MR KOOPEDI But no, you abducted Betty because she would be suspected by the ANC that she's working for you, is that not correct? MR JANTJIE That is correct, Chairperson. MR KOOPEDI A few days thereafter, perhaps within a week, you return her to Lesotho, does that not defeat the purpose, the initial purpose of taking her away? CHAIRPERSON Taking her back. MR KOOPEDI Taking her back, yes. Thank you, Chairperson. MR JANTJIE Chairperson, we were satisfied that there were no longer suspicions and we could not get any piece of information that people knew that Betty was with us, that is why we took her back to Lesotho. MR KOOPEDI You were satisfied that? I missed that. MR JANTJIE We were already satisfied that there was nothing or any information that we could get that indicated that people knew that Betty was working with us, that is why we returned her to Lesotho. MR KOOPEDI What satisfied you? You need to have received some information I believe, that no, no, in fact Betty's okay. What satisfied you? MR JANTJIE We were satisfied because we couldn't hear anything that indicated that people know that Betty was working with us. MR LAX What do you mean by that? What information? What are you talking about? That's the question. MR JANTJIE I am saying that because our informers will come to us and tell us that it is known that Betty is working with us, but because we didn't get that information from our informers, we became satisfied that there were no suspicions that Betty was with us or was working with us. MR KOOPEDI But your informers had already told you that, not so? Were you not told by your informers that Betty is hot, Betty is suspected that she's working with you, and that is why you abducted her? MR JANTJIE That is so, Chairperson. MR LAX Can I just ask something? How would your informers know that they should come and tell you that there were suspicions that Betty was - now this is after the abduction, you understand? How would your informers know after her abduction to come and tell you well, there's still suspicions or there are no suspicions? MR JANTJIE The informer who gave us information about Betty stayed at the same place where Betty was staying, so we expected that if there was something else that he has heard at that place, he would come to us and tell us so that we could take some action. MR LAX Well how could he come to you, you were at the farm with these people? MR JANTJIE He could call our office and give somebody information there at the office, then we will make an arrangement to meet him. MR LAX And so because your informer didn't tell you there were any further suspicions or didn't make any effort to contact you, you made the assumption that there were no longer any suspicions against Betty? Do I understand you correctly? MR JANTJIE That is so, Chairperson. MR LAX And that's why you went and dropped her in a public place with the others? MR JANTJIE That is so, Chairperson. MR KOOPEDI You sat with Betty for some time, together with Nomasonto and Tax, and I believe this will be a fair question to ask, did Nomasonto and Tax belong to other units, or did they only belong to Betty's unit? MR JANTJIE That is so, Chairperson. MR KOOPEDI They belonged to other units? Is that what you're saying? MR JANTJIE They were in Betty's unit, Chairperson. MR KOOPEDI As far as you knew they did not belong to other units? MR JANTJIE That is so, Chairperson. MR KOOPEDI Now my question is, why would you want to recruit Nomasonto and Tax, because they belong in Betty's unit and they don't belong in any other units? What value would they add? MR JANTJIE We wanted to get information from all the people in Betty's unit. MR KOOPEDI What information did you expect to get from them, other than information about the unit's activities? What did information did you expect to get, for instance, from Tax and Nomasonto? MR JANTJIE The information that we expected from them was in as far as the infiltrations from Lesotho were concerned into the Republic of South Africa. Those were the infiltrations that were undertaken by the MK soldiers from Lesotho. MR KOOPEDI What you're saying is that you expected Tax and Nomasonto to have information that Betty did not have, am I correct? MR JANTJIE Yes, that was our suspicion, Chairperson. MR KOOPEDI Okay. Let's talk about Mbulelo. What led you to Mbulelo Ngono? MR JANTJIE We were trying to recruit him so that we can get information as well from him. MR LAX No, the question was, what led you to him? What drew him to your attention? That was the question, not what information did you want, or what your object was. MR JANTJIE We learnt about him in Maseru and we became interested in him. MR KOOPEDI Who told you about Mbulelo Ngono? MR JANTJIE We were told by our informer. MR KOOPEDI Who is this informer? MR VISSER ; Chairperson, are we going to go through that again, with great respect. CHAIRPERSON Ja, he stated that he wouldn't divulge those informers, so I don't think we'll get anywhere Mr Koopedi. MR KOOPEDI Well he stated in the matter of Betty, it was not clear to me that he's going to throughout refuse divulging informers, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON No, he's initial testimony was that he will reveal these four, that is Betty, Nomasonto, Tax and Mbulelo, the other informers he would not tell you about, for security reasons. That's his evidence. MR KOOPEDI Thank you, Chairperson. You say that after you had heard about Mbulelo, you then discussed the plan with your superior and your co-applicant, Mr Robertshaw and you were told that you should go and recruit this person, am I correct? MR JANTJIE That is so, Chairperson. MR KOOPEDI Now on your way to Roma, that is you and Thulo, decided that no, we don't want to recruit this person but rather to take him the other way round. Why this decision? MR JANTJIE It is because we realised that the method that we used at the farm was the easiest method, so that is why we decided that we should go and approach the Lesotho Police so that they could help us. MR KOOPEDI No, the method you used previously did not include using the Lesotho Police, and perhaps I will come to that. What I want to know is, your instructions were to go and recruit this person and according to your evidence you said on your way to Roma, you decided not to recruit but to go to the Roma police, now what I want to know is, what made you go for this decision? Why did you change from the instruction given? You were instructed to go and recruit, but you turn around and say no, we don't want to recruit. What made you change? MR JANTJIE It is because we realised that the method that we used at the farm would be the easiest one that we could use to recruit Ngono from Lesotho. MR KOOPEDI Now did you - before going to the Lesotho Police, did you go back to Mr Robertshaw to tell him that: "We don't want to follow your instructions anymore, but we want to take another route"? MR JANTJIE No, Chairperson. MR KOOPEDI Am I then correct to say that from the moment you decided not to go according to instructions, you were acting on your own, you were acting contrary to your instructions? MR JANTJIE You are correct, Chairperson. MR KOOPEDI Okay. Now when you get to the flat, your evidence was - or the place where you found Mbulelo, your evidence was that it was only Mbulelo and a lady who was with him and other than that it would have been the four of you, yourself, Thulo and two people from the Lesotho Police, is that correct? MR JANTJIE That is so, Chairperson. MR KOOPEDI Are you still certain that there was not a third person, a lady, that is - ja, a lady, a sister to Mbulelo's friend? MR JANTJIE I am certain, Chairperson. MR KOOPEDI And perhaps you can clear up this misunderstanding for me. In your evidence you stated that the police took, the Lesotho Police took Mbulelo only and you left, went to the police station, they then handed Mbulelo to you. In your affidavit, or your declaration - page 15I, Chairperson, paragraph 40, you state that KK was then arrested by the Lesotho Policemen, together with his friend. MR VISSER No Chairperson, I'm not sure whether I remembered to do this, didn't I ask that that ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON That was clarified in the evidence-in-chief. MR VISSER That should be struck out. CHAIRPERSON It should be struck out. MR VISSER Yes, and I said that is a clear mistake on the draughtsman's point. CHAIRPERSON I don't know if you picked that up. MR KOOPEDI I missed that, Chairperson. So what is your evidence, is your evidence that she was not taken? MR JANTJIE That is so, Chairperson. MR KOOPEDI Now when you got to the farm, what did you tell KK or Mbulelo? MR JANTJIE We introduced ourselves to him, we told him that we were the South African Police and we would wish that he work with us as an informer. MR KOOPEDI And what did he say? MR JANTJIE He could not take a decision at that moment, he wanted to know why we went to fetch so that he could be an informer while we knew that he was the member of the ANC. And we talked to him until he agreed to work with us. MR KOOPEDI What I'm interested in is, what is it that made him turn? What is it that you said to him that made him agree to work with you? MR JANTJIE My suspicion is that he realised that he had no alternative, because at that time he knew that in the Republic of South Africa he would be arrested. So I think he was frightened at that moment. MR KOOPEDI When you passed at the border with Mbulelo, you were not asked questions again? MR JANTJIE That is so, Chairperson. MR KOOPEDI He was not worried that he's not crossing the border into South Africa with people who just cross the border without any passports or questions asked? MR JANTJIE He was surprised, Chairperson. MR KOOPEDI He didn't ask you: "Why are we able just to cross the way we are crossing?" Or was it obvious that you were South African Police at that stage? MR JANTJIE According to me Chairperson, he was already aware that we were the members of the South African Police. MR KOOPEDI When the Lesotho Police arrested Mbulelo, what did they do, did they handcuff him? MR JANTJIE That is so, Chairperson. MR KOOPEDI When was he handcuffed, if at all he was? MR JANTJIE When they arrested him at his house they used his belt. MR LAX But you just said he was handcuffed. Why say he was handcuffed if they used his belt? MR JANTJIE My understanding of this word "handcuff" is that you can use anything to bind somebody's hands. That is my understanding of the word "to handcuff". MR LAX But you're a policeman, you know what a handcuff is. If you handcuff someone you use handcuffs, you don't tie them up. There's a difference to a policeman between handcuffing and tying somebody. You were a Warrant Officer, for goodness sake. MR JANTJIE That is so, Chairperson. MR KOOPEDI You said in your evidence-in-chief that if she had, if Mbulelo had refused to work with you, you would have left him and returned him to Lesotho, didn't you maintain that? MR JANTJIE Yes, I did say that, Chairperson. MR KOOPEDI And how much time had passed, that is from Betty's abduction to Mbulelo's arrest? MR JANTJIE It was about eight to nine days, Chairperson. MR KOOPEDI Now the police, the Roma police who assisted you, or who arrested Mbulelo, do you know their names? MR JANTJIE No, Chairperson, I only know them by their faces. MR KOOPEDI You also didn't know their ranks? MR JANTJIE I knew their ranks, Chairperson. MR KOOPEDI What were their ranks? MR JANTJIE They were Sergeants, Chairperson. MR KOOPEDI Are you able to describe these people, tall, short? CHAIRPERSON Would it assist us to know their height and weight and all that? Or are you going to call those people? MR KOOPEDI It's a possibility, Chairperson, and in fact what we need to know is, or what we need to find out from the applicant is, we need him to tell us who was with him for us to be to confirm whether he's telling the truth or not, and if he does not know their names, perhaps a description would assist us. Like we said, there was a third person present, the was the lady friend to Mbulelo who is still alive today and I believe a response to that question would go a long way in assisting the applicant, for us to be able to say he's telling the truth or not on that aspect. MR VISSER Well Chairperson, if I may, there is a statement in your bundle from page 45 by the girlfriend, who says that her sister was there and there is some conflict on that issue, but for the rest there's nothing that his witness said that can be tested by calling anyone else. On the evidence of Macebe. Because she says that four people arrived, she says that they took KK away and they came and fetched her later. So with respect, I'm not sure where it's going, but I'm leaving it in your hands. CHAIRPERSON No, I wouldn't allow that question. MR KOOPEDI Chairperson, I have no further questions for this witness. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR KOOPEDI CHAIRPERSON Mr Mapoma. CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MAPOMA Thank you, Chairperson. Was is the name of the place where Betty resided, in Lesotho? MR JANTJIE That is Ditabaneng ...(indistinct) CHAIRPERSON Is that the same as Nomasonto? MR JANTJIE That is so, Chairperson. MR MAPOMA And how far is that from Maseru? MR JANTJIE It can be about four kilometres from Maseru, Chairperson. MR MAPOMA And when you were surveilling her place of residence, were you using your car? MR JANTJIE That is so, Chairperson. MR MAPOMA What would you do, would you park the car in front of her place, or what? How would you do this surveillance? MR JANTJIE We would park on the other street seven metres from Betty's place, Chairperson. MR LAX Sorry, how many metres? MR JANTJIE Chairperson, I would say it can be seventy metres, not seven. MR LAX Seventy metres. Thank you. CHAIRPERSON Seventeen, 17? MR JANTJIE 7-0, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON You may proceed, Mr Mapoma. MR MAPOMA Thank you, Chairperson. Now you said in your evidence-in-chief that on your first contact with her you followed her on her way to town and managed to speak to her. Was she on foot? MR JANTJIE No, Chairperson. MR MAPOMA Was she - how did she go to town? MR JANTJIE She boarded the taxi, Chairperson. MR MAPOMA And where did you meet her? MR JANTJIE We met with her in town, Chairperson. MR MAPOMA And is that where you managed to speak to her, in town? MR JANTJIE That is so, Chairperson. MR VISSER Could my learned colleague just perhaps be specific, speak to her about what, because obviously we're talking a recruitment and later information that was received, so ...(intervention) MR LAX Hang on, this is the first introduction. MR VISSER The very first time? MR LAX Yes. MR VISSER Alright. Then very clearly these two persons are not on the same wavelength. MR LAX That's his evidence. MR VISSER With great respect, it has never been the evidence of this witness that they recruited her in Maseru. MR LAX Well that's what he's speaking to, he's just asked him these questions. He says: "When you - first you followed her to town, where did you meet her? Met her in town. She boarded a taxi". This is about the first time he met her, that's been a clear premise to these questions. CHAIRPERSON He's talking about the first time, Mr Visser, the very first contact. MR VISSER I'm going to leave that, Chairperson, it's clear that there's a misunderstanding here. MR LAX Well it's not clear to me at all, but anyway. CHAIRPERSON Let's leave it to Mr Mapoma. Could you put them with some more precision, Mr Mapoma, so that everybody follows. MR MAPOMA When you met with her in town, in Maseru, is that the stage when you happened to speak to her for the first time? MR JANTJIE Chairperson, this thing happened more than 10 years ago, so the statement that we have written here, it's something that we tried to recall, it's not something that was written down. So it becomes difficult for one to explain whether it was for the first time or not. CHAIRPERSON Mr Jantjie, you told us that you had to recruit her and the question asked to you ...(intervention) MR LAX Just stop reading your statement, Mr Jantjie, just listen to the question. CHAIRPERSON ... does not relate to jolt your memory about certain details. It's quite obvious that you were here in the process to recruit somebody to be your informer, what is needed out of you now is to say when did you make that contact. So they said the first contact you must know that the questions were not difficult, he said you surveilled the place, you then made contact with her. It's simple, it doesn't require that you write down, or you should have written down 10 years ago what you exactly did. I don't think so, and I don't think your appeal is appealing. MR JANTJIE Yes, Chairperson. MR MAPOMA Mr Jantjie, I want to get clarity on this. In your evidence-in-chief you said you surveilled Betty for a number of days and then you managed, at some stage, to follow her to town and spoke to her. That was the import of your evidence-in-chief. MR VISSER Now I must make it quite clear that that was never the evidence. CHAIRPERSON Give me a moment. MR VISSER The statement which he confirmed, Chairperson, at page ...(intervention) MR LAX Let's - just let us read our notes to see what the evidence was, with respect, Mr Visser. MR VISSER Can I just refer you to the relevant passage? MR LAX I'm not interested in what he confirmed, I'm interested in what he testified. There's a difference. Because he confirmed a whole range of passages, but then he went on to testify and explain it and that's what we're looking at. CHAIRPERSON No, my note reads that there was some surveillance and "after a few days we followed her from home to town". MR LAX "We pretended to be MK people" CHAIRPERSON ... members. "We pretended to be MK members. It could be two to three days. We followed her into Maseru town. We just wanted to know people who visited her from time to time." MR VISSER Yes, and the evidence went on to say that "She met her members in town, not at her home" CHAIRPERSON Pardon? MR VISSER "She met her members in town, in Maseru, not at her home" But it was never the evidence that they spoke to her in Maseru, Chairperson, with great respect. MR LAX So before all of this confusion has now arisen you were testifying and you were being asked about when did you first make contact with her. Do you remember that? MR JANTJIE Yes, Chairperson. MR LAX And Mr Mapoma then said "You followed her into town? you said: "Yes" Do you remember that? MR JANTJIE Yes, I do, Chairperson. MR LAX This was after she got onto a kombi. MR JANTJIE That is so, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Taxi. It does not follow that a taxi is a kombi. MR LAX Okay. What kind of taxi was it? Was it a kombi? MR JANTJIE It was a kombi, Chairperson. MR LAX Now she gets off the kombi in town somewhere, is that when you approach her to speak to her? MR JANTJIE That is so, Chairperson. MR LAX And that was the first time you spoke to her? MR JANTJIE That is so, Chairperson. MR LAX Carry on, Mr Mapoma. MR MAPOMA Thank you, Sir. Now that is the first time you spoke to her and that is the time when you introduced yourselves as MK cadres to her, is that correct? MR JANTJIE That is so, Chairperson. MR MAPOMA And that is the time when you had discussions with her about you assisting her with finances that she was running short of, is that correct? MR JANTJIE That is so, Chairperson. MR MAPOMA And during these discussions, where exactly was she, or were you? Were you inside your car or just in the street, where exactly? Or somewhere else? Just tell us. MR JANTJIE We were not in the car, Chairperson, we were inside the OK building in Maseru. MR MAPOMA What kind of place was that? Was it an office or a restaurant? Just describe what kind of place was it actually, where you had these discussions with her. CHAIRPERSON This building, where were you inside this building, in other words? MR JANTJIE Inside this building, Chairperson - on the other side about 10 metres from this building there's other buildings and it something like a mall and that open space, there were seats there built by bricks for people to sit there and relax. We were at that place, Chairperson. MR MAPOMA How long did you discuss with her? MR JANTJIE I would say Chairperson, it could be 30 minutes. MR MAPOMA And after you discussed, what was your final agreement with her? MR JANTJIE She gave us her telephone numbers and she said we should call her so that we make an arrangement about the place and the day where we could meet again. MR LAX Sorry, can I just be clear there. She gave you her telephone numbers, is that right? I didn't hear properly. MR MAPOMA That is so, Chairperson. MR LAX You didn't give her your telephone numbers? MR JANTJIE No, Chairperson, not at that stage. CHAIRPERSON You may proceed, Mr Mapoma. MR MAPOMA Thank you, Chairperson. Now other than you introducing yourselves as MK cadres to her and getting her saying that she had financial problems with the ANC, what else did you discuss with her? MR JANTJIE Nothing else, Chairperson. MR MAPOMA Now at what stage did you agree with her that she was going to work with you as your informer? MR JANTJIE I think Chairperson, it was during our second meeting with her. MR MAPOMA And when was your second meeting, relative to the first meeting? MR JANTJIE I do not remember, Chairperson, but it could not have been more than a week. MR MAPOMA Come again, I didn't hear. CHAIRPERSON It could not have been more than a week. MR MAPOMA Oh, thank you. And where was that second meeting? MR JANTJIE In Maseru, Chairperson, though I do not remember the place. MR MAPOMA And that is the place where the deal was struck that she was going to be your informer? MR JANTJIE No, Chairperson. MR MAPOMA What do you mean, no? MR JANTJIE During our second meeting, Chairperson, it was a continuation of what we discussed in our first meeting, that is the financial problems. MR MAPOMA But you said that it is at that second meeting that you agreed with her that she's going to work for you as an informer. That's what you've just said. MR JANTJIE That is why I say, Chairperson, sometimes I will mix these meetings, one cannot recall precisely what the agreements were in our first meeting or second meeting or our third meeting. That is the problem that I have. MR MAPOMA And you can recall that it was not more than a week that you agreed with her that she's going to work for you, is that not so? CHAIRPERSON I suppose it would be proper to ask the witness whether in that second meeting that's where she agreed to work for them, because of the answer he just gave prior to you asking that question. MR MAPOMA Yes, thank you, Chairperson. Now in that second meeting that you had with her, did you agree with her that she's going to work for you as your informer? MR JANTJIE Chairperson, I do not remember whether it was during that second meeting or the third one. MR MAPOMA Now during this period of these meetings with her, would you meet with her and go back to South Africa and then come back again to meet with her, or were you just around Lesotho? MR JANTJIE Chairperson, we would go to Lesotho every time we were going to meet with her, and go back to South Africa, or sometimes when we realised that we would not be able to go there, we will just call her and postpone the meeting and meet with her the other time. MR LAX Can I just try and clarify something? You had this first meeting with her, you tell her you were going to try and help her financially, am I right so far? MR JANTJIE That is so, Chairperson. MR MAPOMA What arrangement did you make with her? Did you say to her: "Look, we're going to go and make some enquiries and we're going to come back to you in due course, give us your phone number, we'll phone you"? What did you say to her? Something like that, or? MR JANTJIE That is so, Chairperson. MR LAX And what did you promise her? MR JANTJIE We promised her that we'll help her financially. MR LAX But did you make some enquiries of her about what her financial needs were, so that you would know how to help her? MR JANTJIE We did not ask her, Chairperson. MR LAX Well then how would you know what to help her with if you didn't know what her requirements were? MR JANTJIE Chairperson, she explained that she always received her money late and when it arrives, after she has spent some money for, distributed the money to other people, she's left with nothing for her own obligations. MR LAX Yes but Sir, if you're trying to convince someone that you want to help them financially, surely you've got to know what their need is, how much you have to get to help them. And surely you as a Security policeman would have to know that you'd have to put in a requisition for a certain amount of money in order to be able to convince this person that you are actually helping her? MR JANTJIE That is so, Chairperson. MR LAX Well how were you going to put in a requisition if you didn't ask her what her needs were financially, you didn't ask her what her rental was, you didn't ask her how much she needed for bus fare or food or whatever? CHAIRPERSON No, rather not a requisition, rather how you were going to help her. Not a requisition. MR LAX No, no. In order to get the money you would have to requisition it from your office. You weren't going to help her out of your own pocket, you were going to have to get State money to pay her to carry on with this pretence that you were MK people helping her, isn't that so? MR JANTJIE The money to help her will come from the office. CHAIRPERSON Which office? MR JANTJIE In Ladybrand, Chairperson. MR LAX And in order to take that money from the office in Ladybrand, you have to fill out documentation. You've got to get approval. MR JANTJIE That is so, Chairperson. MR LAX Now my question is this, in order to put in a report in order to requisition the correct amount of money, you've got to say: "Look, we need the money for this and this purpose, this is your potential informant or informer, we're working on a recruitment, this is how much we need to convince this person that we're genuine". It's logical. MR JANTJIE Yes, I agree with you, Chairperson. MR LAX Well how were you going to do that if you didn't ask her what her needs were? You didn't have any idea of how much would be an appropriate amount. MR JANTJIE Chairperson, I would talk to Mr Jagga and we would agree about the amount that we think, when we request it we will get it, so that we give her that amount of money. CHAIRPERSON We will take a tea adjournment at this point, for 15 minutes. COMMITTEE ADJOURNS LESIZI MICHAEL JANTJIE (s.u.o.) MR LAX Mr Jantjie, before we broke, we were just dealing with the question of how you were going to help Betty Boom and I was asking you some questions about requisitioning money. The primary question is this - you have told us that you didn't enquire as to what her financial needs were at all. You have also told us that you would need to requisition the money. How were you going to know what to requisition and what would be an appropriate amount if you hadn't enquired this from her? MR JANTJIE Myself and Jagga would agree about the amount that we were going to request and we would tell the Betty about this. If she says that it is little, myself and Jagga, we would try again, using the same method. MR LAX But you see, your cover story to her is that you are her comrades and that you have money available? How is she going to believe you if you arrive with a small amount of money and she tells you it is not enough, then you will have to say "well, we will have to go back and get some more"? Surely she is going to think there is something funny going on here? MR JANTJIE She could think so, Chairperson. MR LAX Carry on, Mr Mapoma, thank you. CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MAPOMA (continued) Thank you sir. I will leave that. MR MAPOMA I understand you were a Warrant Officer during that period, is that correct? MR JANTJIE That is so, Chairperson. MR MAPOMA What was Mr Jagga's rank? MR JANTJIE He was also a Warrant Officer at that time. MR MAPOMA You were both reporting to Mr Robertshaw, is that so? MR JANTJIE That is so Chairperson. MR MAPOMA What was Mr Thulo's rank? MR JANTJIE He was a Sergeant, Chairperson. MR MAPOMA When you went to fetch Betty, it was the four of you, am I correct? MR JANTJIE That is correct Chairperson. MR MAPOMA When you were discussing with Betty at the farm, after having fetched her, were the four of you present? MR JANTJIE No Chairperson. MR MAPOMA Who was present and who was not? MR JANTJIE Those who were present was myself, Anthony Jagga. Those who were not present was Mr Robertshaw and Mr Thulo. MR MAPOMA Why were they not present? MR JANTJIE The decision that we made was that it should be myself and Mr Jagga who would be involved in recruitment. MR MAPOMA Why? MR JANTJIE That was our decision that we could not do this job of recruitment, the four of us, it is a job that can be done by two people. MR MAPOMA No, you had already recruited Betty, she was already your informer? When you were discussing with her in the farm, she was already your informer, you were no longer recruiting her. Why was it only you and Jagga who were present in discussing with her? MR JANTJIE It is because myself and Mr Jagga were going to be the people who will handle these people. MR MAPOMA Thulo was also a member of the Security Branch, is that so? MR JANTJIE That is so Chairperson. MR MAPOMA What about Tsolo? MR JANTJIE It is so, Chairperson. MR MAPOMA And Mkungulwa as well, was he a member of the Security Branch? MR JANTJIE That is so Chairperson. MR MAPOMA What was Mr Tsolo's rank then? MR JANTJIE I do not remember Chairperson, but I think he was a Sergeant at that time. MR MAPOMA Is he still in the employ of the South African Police? MR JANTJIE That is so Chairperson. MR MAPOMA Mr Mkungulwa, is he still in the employ of the South African Police Services? MR JANTJIE No Chairperson. MR MAPOMA Where is he, do you know? MR JANTJIE I do not know Chairperson, but I have heard that he might be in Lesotho. MR MAPOMA Where is Mr Tsolo stationed now, to your knowledge? MR JANTJIE He is working at Maseru Bridge border post, Chairperson. MR MAPOMA Who instructed Mr Tsolo and Mkungulwa to take Nomasonto's child to Vereeniging? MR JANTJIE It is Mr Robertshaw, Chairperson. MR MAPOMA Thank you Chairperson, that is all. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MAPOMA CHAIRPERSON Thank you Mr Mapoma. Mr Visser, any re-examination? MR VISSER No re-examination, thank you. NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR VISSER CHAIRPERSON Anything from the panel? MR LAX Thank you Chairperson. You told us that one of Betty Boom's main problems was that she wanted to go home, she was tired of the struggle, she wanted to go home? MR JANTJIE That is so, Chairperson. MR LAX Well, how was someone who wanted to go home and who was tired of the struggle, now suddenly going to be your informer and go back into Lesotho, away from her home, and carry on with the struggle for the other side? MR JANTJIE Chairperson, when we recruited Betty, we changed her mind that she should work for us, because we wanted to get information. That is the agreement between ourselves and her. MR LAX So she suddenly stopped being homesick and now she was imbued with a new fervour to fight the struggle again? MR JANTJIE Yes Chairperson, we agreed that she should go back to Lesotho, and she agreed. MR LAX Now, just to clarify Mkungulwa, what was his rank, we didn't get to that? MR JANTJIE He was a Sergeant, Chairperson. MR LAX Also a Sergeant? Okay. Now, just on the issue of that money that you were going to organise, you have told us that the maximum that you could organise at that stage was R250-00, is that correct? MR JANTJIE That is so Chairperson. MR LAX Well, how were you able to organise the R750-00 then, which you paid each of them before they left? MR JANTJIE Chairperson, if you allow me I would request an opportunity so that I can explain why we managed to get the R750-00, if the Chairperson allows me. CHAIRPERSON Yes? MR LAX We would be grateful to you if you could explain that. MR JANTJIE This amount, that is R750-00, each person was given not more than R250-00. In each request that you make to get money, sometimes you may give three requests, that would be approved. You would not make one request, for one person to the amount of R750-00. The reason why it was R750-00, it is because we made three requisitions, three different requisitions. CHAIRPERSON What about KK, did you agree to pay him when he worked for you, Ngono Mbulelo? MR JANTJIE That is so, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON You may proceed. MR LAX And you say you did pay him? MR JANTJIE Not as far as I can recall, Chairperson. MR LAX Why didn't you pay him? MR JANTJIE I do not remember the reasons why we did not pay him. I think in our next meeting, we would give him something. MR LAX I see. CHAIRPERSON Not because when you took him back to Lesotho, you never had contact with him? MR JANTJIE Yes Chairperson, we never met him again. MR LAX Now, just with regard to Nomasonto, what would you have done with her if she had refused to become an informer? MR JANTJIE We would take her back to Lesotho, Chairperson. MR LAX And you wouldn't prosecute her, either? MR JANTJIE No Chairperson, we would not do that? CHAIRPERSON Why not, when your duty was to track down these MK members who were giving South Africa a problem? Why get hold of an MK member and recruit that person, and when that person refuses, you take that person back, why? Is it not defeating the very purpose of your duties? MR JANTJIE Chairperson, I would also request the Chairperson to give me an opportunity so that I can explain why we took Nomasonto back to Lesotho, even though she would have refused to work with us. CHAIRPERSON Yes, come with that. MR JANTJIE During those years, between 1965 until 1970, in Ladybrand, before I worked for the South African Police, what I heard from the office was that other members were working for the Security Police, abducted a certain refugee from Lesotho, who was Solomon Mungay, they brought him to South Africa. When they arrived in South Africa, they tried to prosecute him. The international law were against the idea that Solomon Mungay should be prosecuted in Lesotho because he was not arrested in South Africa, but he was abducted in Lesotho. The reason why we returned Nomasonto to Lesotho, it is because we did not have the powers or the law would not allow us, to prosecute her in the Republic of South Africa as we did not arrest her in South Africa, we abducted her in Lesotho. Therefore we did not have the powers to do so, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Why waste your efforts to track these people down and take them into the country and take them back, why waste your efforts? MR JANTJIE Chairperson, we went to fetch these people because we wanted to recruit them, so that they could divulge some information to us. MR LAX Why not rather do this, which is what you people often did, why not hand them back to the Lesotho Police to prosecute them, or alternatively to have them deported back to Zambia, Tanzania, Angola, wherever? That way they are out of your hair, and you have inconvenienced the ANC and MK? Surely that was the logical thing to do if you could not prosecute them? MR JANTJIE Chairperson, we did not have the powers to tell the Lesotho government to prosecute somebody only because they are a member of the ANC or the PAC or he was a refugee. MR LAX Well, with the greatest of respect sir, Mr Ngono was found with a handgrenade, even on your evidence, that couldn't have been lawful in Lesotho to be in possession of a handgrenade? Why didn't you hand him back to the Lesotho Police? MR JANTJIE We did not do that Chairperson, because our main aim was to recruit Mr Mbulelo Ngono. MR LAX I see. When did you join the Security Branch, just remind me, please? MR JANTJIE In 1977 Chairperson. MR LAX And this was in 1987, so at this stage you had been in the Police Security Branch for 10 years and you were a Warrant Officer? MR JANTJIE That is so Chairperson. MR LAX You had been working with, were you working on the ANC Desk, were you a field worker connected to that desk? MR JANTJIE That is so Chairperson. MR LAX You would therefore have had fairly extensive knowledge of the ANC structures? MR JANTJIE That is so, Chairperson. MR LAX You would have known about their Regional Political Military Council? MR JANTJIE That is so, Chairperson. MR LAX You would have known about the different machineries that were operating from Lesotho? MR JANTJIE That is so Chairperson. MR LAX You would have also had other knowledge about other areas that were related, because people moved from area to area? MR JANTJIE That is so, Chairperson. MR LAX You would have had knowledge of the South African Communist Party, because many of the ANC members were Communist Party members? MR JANTJIE I did not have knowledge of the South African Communist Party, Chairperson. MR LAX Are you serious? MR JANTJIE Yes Chairperson. MR LAX Did you have knowledge of MK? MR JANTJIE Yes, I did. MR LAX What was the Free State machinery? MR JANTJIE There is nothing that I remember about the Free State machinery. The only thing that I know is that there was a Free State machinery in Lesotho, Chairperson. MR LAX You cannot be serious? CHAIRPERSON You had contact with Betty Boom, was that not some of the information you had to get out of her, about the Free State machinery? MR JANTJIE That is so, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Did you attempt to get that other than be interested that she should be your informer? MR JANTJIE No Chairperson, we tried to get from her how the Free State machinery operated. When I say I know nothing about the Free State machinery, I am saying that apart from this people that we went to fetch in Lesotho, those are the other people that I know. There are no other people that I know. CHAIRPERSON The question is did you not ask how the Free State machinery was operating from the Commander or the other two, Betty Boom? This was an opportunity for you to find out precisely how it operated, or what it was like? MR JANTJIE Chairperson, I do not recall everything. CHAIRPERSON What is that which you don't recall? MR JANTJIE When I say I do not recall, I mean that I cannot specifically say what she told us about the Free State machinery, because what she told us, we would write it down and send it to Bloemfontein, and then in Bloemfontein they would distribute this information to other offices and in those offices, they will take action against those people, either arrest them or do something against them. CHAIRPERSON Mr Jantjie, you recall that during those years, there was a heavy onslaught from the liberation movements into South Africa, you recall that? MR JANTJIE Yes I do, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON And you might have heard because of this heavy onslaught, places like Lesotho and Botswana were raided by the South African Defence Force? MR JANTJIE That is so Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON And from Betty Boom you were able to at least get somebody who was operating in the Cape, who was eventually arrested? MR JANTJIE Yes Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON And the purpose of the Security Branch in Ladybrand was to sift out these people in Lesotho, so that at least the Free State should be guarded against this onslaught? MR JANTJIE Yes Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON You get information, you don't pay particular attention to this information, you rather send it to another office of the Security Branch, is that what I am understanding from you? MR JANTJIE Yes Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON And how did you think you would get further information if you did not understand the machinery that operated within the Free State? MR JANTJIE May you please repeat the question, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON How would you track down the other insurgents for the treat that emanated from Lesotho, if you did not know the machinery that operated within the Free State? MR JANTJIE Like I am trying to explain Chairperson, the information that she gave to us, we would take this information to Bloemfontein. We would not be able to get other people, unless we get information from Betty, I don't know whether I have answered your question, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON You may proceed, Mr Lax. MR LAX Do I understand you correctly that you didn't really know anything about the Free State machinery? This was your first breakthrough? MR JANTJIE No Chairperson. MR LAX Mr Jantjie, please, we are not children here. You are a senior black Security Policeman, you must have known the complete structure of the Free State machinery in order to do your work, isn't that so, otherwise you wouldn't know who you were recruiting, where they fitted into the picture, what kind of information to expect from them, isn't that so? MR JANTJIE It is so Chairperson. MR LAX Yes? And isn't it so that the Free State machinery consisted of a number of cells, not just one cell? MR JANTJIE Chairperson, we only knew Betty's cell. MR LAX I am asking you about your general knowledge of the structure. Every machinery consisted of many cells, not just one cell? How were three people going to operate in the whole of the Free State as the machinery? You can see how absurd your statement is, can't you? MR JANTJIE It seems like that Chairperson, but what I know is that we were able to know about Betty's cell. She gave us two names of the people that she knew in Bloemfontein. CHAIRPERSON May I just interpose Mr Lax? Mr Jantjie, you were the only black person within Ladybrand who worked for the Security Branch, isn't that so? MR JANTJIE No Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Was there another Jantjie? MR JANTJIE No, I was the only Jantjie Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON I will tell you why I am asking you this. On Monday we had the application of Henri van der Westhuizen who worked for the Military Intelligence. He implicated you in a sense that he at some stage went to Ladybrand and amongst the people he met at Ladybrand was Warrant Officer Jantjie. Just hearing of the surname, I mistook you for white and he said no, black. You, him, Boshoff, Nortje, Snor Vermeulen went into Lesotho. You and other black colleagues were in a separate car, going to find out about ANC members at a certain house in Lesotho, and you black Security Police shot at those people, or there was an exchange of fire between you and the others, do you know Mr Henri van der Westhuizen? MR JANTJIE Chairperson, I do remember this name, because the Security Branch office in Ladybrand was frequented by many white policemen, so I cannot say that I don't know him. MR LAX Just to give you a picture of who he was, he was a special guy that came to help your branch. He came to help your branch develop target structures. He was a specialist on the ANC, within Special Forces, Military Intelligence and he specifically came to Ladybrand to work with your members. Why should he mention your name as being part of an operation? MR JANTJIE If Chairperson will allow me, and give me a chance to explain about the people who were sent by Pretoria to Ladybrand to go and investigate about the ANC people in Lesotho. MR LAX No, no, he wasn't sent for that purpose. He was sent to assist your people with Intelligence information, to help you develop better Intelligence structures and better co-ordinated Intelligence structures. Do you understand? MR JANTJIE Yes, I do understand Chairperson. Can I be granted an opportunity to explain? MR LAX Let me just finish. He worked in your office for six months, he was based in your office in Ladybrand for six months at least. You don't remember the man? MR JANTJIE I have already said Chairperson, if I can see van der Westhuizen, maybe I will be able to recall him, because at our office at Ladybrand, I have never worked with a Mr van der Westhuizen. That is why I said I wanted to explain about those people who were sent to Ladybrand from other places, how they operated there. CHAIRPERSON Before you do that, let me give you a complete picture of what Mr van der Westhuizen said to us. He said even Eugene de Kock was a frequent guest at Ladybrand, did you ever see Mr de Kock visiting you people there, Mr de Kock, the famous one from Vlakplaas? MR JANTJIE Yes, he frequented that office, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Did you know of his escapades or visitations into Lesotho, that is Mr de Kock? MR JANTJIE No Chairperson, but I knew that he was one of the people who were tracking down the MK people. CHAIRPERSON Tell us about what you know about the people sent from Pretoria to Ladybrand. MR JANTJIE Put it this way Chairperson, these people were sent from the outside, who were sent to come and assist us, or to get information that we had in our office, they would meet with the person who was the Head of our Branch and he was the person who would sit down with them and discuss everything with them regarding the information that we have collected from Lesotho. Then if they wanted to make questions, they would ask our Head and our Head would direct those questions to us. We would in turn give Mr Fouche the answers or the information that he had requested. Mr Fouche was our Head at that time. The reason why we could not have a direct link with these people from outside Ladybrand was that at some point one of the people who was working for the Military Intelligence, arrived at Ladybrand and he tried to recruit black people who were working as securities, to give him information directly. We told our Head about that person from the Military Intelligence and that is the reason why we were told that we should not have direct contact with these people from outside our office. CHAIRPERSON He actually mentioned Mr Fouche, that one of the people who was Head of Ladybrand Security Branch was Mr Fouche, so it would appear his evidence is credible in that instance? MR JANTJIE Mr van der Westhuizen, in his statement he would mention the names of the people that he knew or he knows in Ladybrand, that does not mean that the statement that he made, is correct. That is my understanding, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON During the period in question, even during the period in question that you are talking about, he says he was stationed, he was for six months in Ladybrand, the period in question? MR JANTJIE Chairperson, I would not say van der Westhuizen was stationed at Ladybrand, because you would see him today and the next day he is no longer there, and on the third day, he would come back. So that to me ... CHAIRPERSON How are you able to say that, because you said you will only know Mr van der Westhuizen if he can be brought before you, how could you now say that he would be there for three days and then he wouldn't be there, how are you able to say that? MR JANTJIE I say so Chairperson, because that is what he was doing. He would disappear for a day or three days. CHAIRPERSON Did you know him? MR JANTJIE Yes, I used to know him there. He used to visit our office. MR LAX Then why did you tell us you didn't know who he was, you couldn't even recognise him, you would have to see him first? MR JANTJIE I am saying that the last time that I saw van der Westhuizen was when I was still employed by the South African Police, but when he can be shown to me, I would be able to recognise him. CHAIRPERSON In any event, I just wanted to apprise you of the evidence that we heard from him on Monday. MR LAX Just to get back to the machinery, so you are telling us that until you met Betty Boom, and she began to give you information about the Free State machinery, you didn't know anything else about the Free State machinery? MR JANTJIE Chairperson, it could happen that the information that we got from other offices of the Security Branch in the country, we would get information about the Free State machinery. MR LAX Well, then why do you keep saying you didn't know anything about the Free State machinery until you met her and she gave you the information? MR JANTJIE I said I have a suspicion that from the newspapers that we used to receive at our office, we used to read about the Free State machinery, its existence. MR LAX You've got to be joking now, sir? CHAIRPERSON Please, please. The ANC would give the newspaper what their machinery is, what in the Free State? Please? Is this not information gathered by the Intelligence community of the South African Republic's regime? MR JANTJIE Chairperson, I was saying these newspapers were sent from the offices of the Security Branch. MR LAX So did the ... CHAIRPERSON Oh, memo's in other words? MR LAX No, no, he said ... CHAIRPERSON Communications between the various departments of the Intelligence community, that is what you are referring to? MR JANTJIE That is so, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON I understand the unfortunate choice of words. I am with you, thank you. You may proceed, Mr Lax. MR LAX In those memo's and news, or information bulletins, you would get a description of the structure of the Free State machinery? MR JANTJIE I do not recall well, but it could be so Chairperson. MR LAX Yes. The fact of the matter is though that Betty Boom wasn't the Commander of a cell, she was the Commander of a machinery, isn't that so? MR JANTJIE It is so Chairperson. MR LAX Why do you refer to her as the Commander of a cell, rather than as a Commander of the Free State machinery? In all your applications, each one of you refers to her as a Cell Commander, not as a Commander of the Free State machinery, why is that? There is a big difference, isn't there? MR JANTJIE There is, Chairperson. MR LAX Can you explain why you have only referred to her as a Commander of a cell? MR JANTJIE According to me, the person who was the Commander of a cell, was the same person who was the Commander of the machinery. CHAIRPERSON What level of education have you obtained, Mr Jantjie? MR JANTJIE Up to standard 7, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. MR LAX But you have passed all sorts of Police exams to become a Warrant Officer? MR JANTJIE I never wrote even a single exam, Chairperson. MR LAX I see, so you were just promoted? MR JANTJIE That is so, Chairperson. MR LAX You can read Afrikaans? MR JANTJIE That is so, Chairperson. MR LAX You can certainly understand it and speak it? MR JANTJIE That is so, Chairperson. MR LAX You are not exactly an illiterate person, are you? MR JANTJIE That is so, Chairperson. MR LAX Now, you told us earlier in your evidence that you didn't know anything about the cell members? MR JANTJIE That is so, Chairperson. MR LAX How could you have told us when you were being cross-examined, that you knew they were highly trained members of MK? MR JANTJIE Chairperson, I said members of the MK had military training. MR LAX No, no, that wasn't the evidence. The evidence was that they were highly trained, and I made a note of that because it struck me as rather peculiar that on the one hand you would say you didn't know anything about these people, and then you should say that they were highly trained. MR JANTJIE As far as I am concerned, Chairperson, each and every person who have been trained as MK, or who was a Commander of the machinery, it must be the person who did not only receive military training. MR LAX We are not talking about the Commander, we are talking about the other two, and (indistinct) for that matter. We cannot hear? MR JANTJIE May you please repeat the question again, Chairperson. MR LAX Sure. Can you explain this to me, we can assume that a Commander would be highly trained, that I don't have a difficulty with that. But you said you knew nothing about the others, the cell members? Then how could you know that they were highly trained, if you knew nothing about them? MR JANTJIE Apart from what I read from the bulletins or newspapers or hearing from him, that was the only way I could know how he was trained. MR LAX So you didn't know that they were highly trained? MR JANTJIE That is so, Chairperson. MR LAX Now, at page 11 of the papers, in your amnesty application, you say that you went to Roma, you and Thulo went to Roma to fetch Ngono, in the fourth paragraph, second and third lines. "... 'Ek en DD Thulo is na Roma waar ons hom gaan haal het'", and that is a reference, "hom" is a reference to Ngono. MR JANTJIE That is so Chairperson. MR LAX Well, you went there to recruit him, not to fetch him? Why do you give the wrong impression in your amnesty application? MR VISSER With respect Chairperson ... CHAIRPERSON No, no. MR VISSER Let's just read the ... CHAIRPERSON Pages 15 and others, there it is expanded. MR VISSER But apart from that, Chairperson, if one reads paragraph 11, he says "... Thulo and I went to Roma ...". MR LAX With the greatest of respect, Chairperson. MR VISSER It does not say Chairperson, with respect, that we went there with the view of going to fetch him. It does not say that, that is the question being put to this witness, and it is an unfair question. MR LAX The question with the greatest of respect, Mr Visser, is put on the premise that their instructions were to recruit him and on that basis, that your instructions were to recruit him, why do you say in your amnesty application, that you went there to fetch him and there is quite a substantial difference between going there to recruit somebody and then changing your mind and then having him arrested, and going there simply to fetch him. The impression created in going there to fetch him, is that it was your instruction to go and fetch him, and that is quite different? MR VISSER That is a different matter, Chairperson. MR LAX And that is in that context that I was asking the question. MR VISSER Yes, that is a different matter, Chairperson. MR LAX Will you explain this to me, please? MR JANTJIE Chairperson, I explained that on our way to Roma, Mr Robertshaw said to us we should recruit Mr Ngono. On our way, myself and Mr Thulo, we decided that it would be easier for us to take Mr Ngono with us because we had already realised that we can use the same method that we used before at the farm, and this is the only reason why we decided to take Ngono to the farm. MR LAX Well, you see, your amnesty application does not say that? Your amnesty application gives the impression that you were going to use the same method as before, that you were going to fetch him and take him to the farm, and that is very different to what your instructions were. Please explain this to us. MR JANTJIE Chairperson, really, I do not have another explanation apart from the one that I have already given. Apart from reaching a decision, myself and Mr Thulo, that we should fetch him and take him to the farm. CHAIRPERSON Did you have a discretion in your operations? MR JANTJIE Yes sir. Sometimes we would be told that we can use our own discretion, as long as it would bring benefits. CHAIRPERSON You did not have to execute instructions to the letter as given by Mr Robertshaw? MR JANTJIE That is so, Chairperson. MR LAX You see the problem for me, is a different one. I accept that you had discretion, what I find difficult is in your amnesty application, you give a completely different picture of the plan? You don't say that you changed your mind midway through and then decided to follow a different plan? You say the plan was simply to abduct him and take him there, on the same basis as the others? Do you see the difference? I accept that you cannot explain it, but can you see the difference? MR JANTJIE Yes, I do Chairperson. MR LAX Now, my last set of questions go around this issue. It has sort of been covered a bit before, so forgive me for covering ground that has already partly been covered, but I want to deal with them in a composite way. How did you discover that there were security concerns about Betty Boom, how did you first discover that? MR JANTJIE Chairperson, the person who was our informer, is the one who gave us that information. MR LAX And then, what did you do about that? MR JANTJIE We discussed that with our superior and thereafter Betty confirmed that. MR LAX And then based on that understanding, you hatched a plan to appear to abduct her to South Africa, is that right? MR JANTJIE That is so, Chairperson. MR LAX And the purpose of that plan was to give her credibility and to avoid the suspicions pertaining to her? Do I understand that correctly? MR JANTJIE That is so, Chairperson. MR LAX Now, who was suspicious about her? MR JANTJIE Chairperson, the information that we got from our informer was that those were the people who lived with her in that area. MR LAX They were the people who lived with her in that area? Is that correct? MR JANTJIE I am referring to the people in the neighbourhood, her neighbours or the persons in the same street, in that way, Chairperson. That is so Chairperson. MR LAX Just for the record, the Chairperson said the Lesotho citizens, and he confirmed that. That wasn't translated for us, unfortunately. MR JANTJIE He said so Chairperson. MR LAX I beg your pardon? INTERPRETER He said so, that is correct Chairperson. MR LAX Yes. What wasn't translated was the Chairperson's words, which formed the basis of which he said "that is correct". What the Chairperson said, I just wanted it recorded, is the Basotho's. INTERPRETER Yes, Chairperson said Basotho's there, that is correct, that is Lesotho citizens. MR LAX These were the people in the neighbourhood where she lived? MR JANTJIE That is so, Chairperson. MR LAX Did she say why they were suspicious? MR JANTJIE Are you referring to our informer, Chairperson? CHAIRPERSON Yes, that is the information that came from the informer. MR JANTJIE No, he said to us that there is a rumour that the people in the neighbourhood suspect that Betty was working with the people from the Republic of South Africa who were policemen. CHAIRPERSON What did they know about Betty, that is the neighbours, according to your informant? MR JANTJIE According to our informer, Chairperson, there were people who knew that Betty was not a Lesotho citizen, she was from the Republic and she was a member of the ANC. CHAIRPERSON Why do you say, before you proceed, why do you say it would appear? MR JANTJIE I am referring to the report that we received from our informer, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Did they know or did they not know that Betty was in exile and she was a member of the ANC and in this respect, belonging to the military wing? Did those people know that? MR JANTJIE They were suspicious Chairperson. MR LAX We are not asking whether they were suspicious, surely the people who she lived with, the neighbours must have known that and that would have been the information that your informer would have relayed to you? MR JANTJIE I will answer this way, Chairperson. According to our informer, the people were suspicious that Betty was working with the police from the Republic of South Africa. He did not tell us that they know. CHAIRPERSON Did the other two comrades know, that is Nomasonto Mahleha and Tax Janaman? MR JANTJIE They learnt about that at the farm, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Just in fairness to you, when you were questioned the day before yesterday, you said even the comrades suspected her and that is what you got from the informer and I actually expressed surprise, do you recall that? MR JANTJIE I do not remember Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON I said when you came and said your informer had told you that Betty has been suspected, the question arose "by whom" and you said - I will come to you, if you will give me a moment, I will find it. MR VISSER You don't have to find it Chairperson, I agree, he said the comrades, the other ANC people. CHAIRPERSON So it would appear my memory is still with me at this young age? You see what I mean, and now you are telling us that you found that out at the farm? MR JANTJIE I agree with you Chairperson, on this point. Maybe I have explained this issue in a different way, I was not supposed to have explained it this way, so I think I was not aware that I am giving the wrong explanation. CHAIRPERSON Let's get the proper explanation of who suspected Betty Boom. MR JANTJIE Chairperson, like I have just said the people in the neighbourhood were the people we were told had suspicions that Betty was working with the police from South Africa. When I go back to the issues surrounding the people who were members of MK, we took Betty to Ladybrand so that when we go, when we bring this other MK members, they should see that Betty is already there and is working for us, so that they do not have suspicions on Betty. CHAIRPERSON Let's just get this one clear. Did the other comrades suspect her of that, or was it expressed at the farm that they had such suspicions? MR JANTJIE No Chairperson, they did not have any suspicion on her. CHAIRPERSON I don't want to detract you from what Mr Lax is asking you. These people, the Basotho, the Lesotho citizens, who suspected that Betty Boom was working with South African Police, were you wearing uniforms across the border? MR JANTJIE No Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Were you known when you were having these frequent excursions into Lesotho that you were South African Police by the ordinary citizens? MR JANTJIE Yes, most of the people in areas that we used to visit, knew us well. CHAIRPERSON This area which is four to five kilometres away, Detabaneng, did those people know you to be South African Police? MR JANTJIE That is so, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Are you aware that I am referring to the area where Betty Boom was residing? MR JANTJIE That is so, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON When you approached Betty Boom and said "we were comrades, you would assist financially", she didn't know of your identity or suspected your identity at least? MR JANTJIE No Chairperson, she didn't know us. CHAIRPERSON Thank you Mr Lax, you may continue. I am sorry. MR LAX No, no, that is fine. Mr Jantjie, isn't it self-evident and a fact that if the neighbours suspected her of working with you, the only reason they would bother to have a suspicion or find anything untoward in it, is if they knew she was an ANC member? Otherwise, what was there to suspect? MR JANTJIE It is not so, Chairperson. MR LAX Well, then, what would they be suspicious about, what would the problem be, that she was working with you? Just explain that to me, because I cannot see it. MR JANTJIE It is because Chairperson, they knew that she was not a Lesotho citizen, she was a refugee from South Africa. They used to see us in that area where she resided. CHAIRPERSON Did you make contact with her in the area where she resided? MR JANTJIE Chairperson, if I am not mistaken, we did, but once. Although I am not sure about the number of times that we met her there. CHAIRPERSON How long before the "abduction" were you seeing Betty? MR JANTJIE It could be a day to two days Chairperson. I am sorry Chairperson, it can be three days. CHAIRPERSON No, no, don't misunderstand me because I may have been inelegant in posing my question. Over what period of time, that you had made contact with Betty in the mall in the OK Bazaars building? MR JANTJIE That is so, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON That is now the time period that I am talking about, up to the stage where you abducted her? I don't want you to give me something precise, we are talking about a long time ago, an estimation would suffice for my purposes. MR JANTJIE It could be a month Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. MR LAX And in addition to that month, you spent, I think if I remember correctly you said about three weeks keeping her under surveillance, three days, I beg your pardon? MR JANTJIE That is so Chairperson. MR LAX Now, please explain this to me, how would appearing to abduct her, give her credibility? MR JANTJIE Chairperson, we did that so that when people learn about her disappearance, people should know that she did not leave voluntarily. MR LAX Exactly. But even so, how would that give her credibility when you sent her back? Wouldn't they suspect her even more as a result of her being abducted? Because now it wasn't just suspicions of contact, now they had real knowledge that she had been abducted and wouldn't that confirm for them that she had been in your hands? MR JANTJIE No Chairperson, they would not have more suspicion on her, they would want her to explain the circumstances surrounding her abduction. MR LAX Yes, but now she would be required to explain two things. Firstly she would be required to explain why she had been seen in contact with you, correct? And secondly she would have to explain what she was doing while they abducted her and she was away for a whole week? MR JANTJIE That is so, Chairperson. MR LAX How would she explain that innocently, and that she is then released, which is even stranger? MR JANTJIE Yes, it is so Chairperson. MR LAX What possible explanation could she come up with in those circumstances, that would be acceptable to anybody with any intelligence? MR JANTJIE Chairperson, she would give an explanation that she was abducted and we tried to recruit her, and she refused. MR LAX I see. You know what that would then entail for her? What would the consequence of such explanation be? MR JANTJIE I do not know Chairperson. MR LAX Well, I will tell you what the consequences of such an explanation would be, seeing as you cannot even work it out for yourself. As a Security Policeman I would have thought that you would know this explanation. She would immediately be scrutinised by the DIS of the ANC, in all likelihood she would be returned to Lusaka immediately for a period of intensive interrogation. You see, we are not talking about an average MK cadre, who is just an happy-go-lucky footsoldier, we are talking about a Commander? MK were very sensitive about their Commanders being recruited. I will give you an example, Thami Zulu was suspected in Swaziland, you know about Thami Zulu? MR JANTJIE I do not know him, Chairperson. MR LAX Thami Zulu was Head of the Natal machinery, in an equivalent position to Betty Boom and when they suspected him, they immediately sent him to Lusaka and he had a very rough time there. You didn't expect that, did you? You just thought that her explanation would be acceptable? MR JANTJIE No Chairperson, we didn't expect that to happen to her. MR LAX Yes. Now, contrary to what you have told us today, you have told us in other evidence that her comrades suspected her and you have told us that the primary purpose of this plan was to abduct her so that you could use her as the bait to abduct her comrades, and recruit them. The purpose of that recruitment would be in essence to neutralise the threat that they posed to her. That is the plan as I understand it. Am I right? CHAIRPERSON Wouldn't he have retracted that after my questioning along those aspects? MR LAX I am just wanting to confirm whether he is agreeing or not. MR VISSER Yes, he said a lot of things, but Mr Lax, if he is wrong, in spite of Mr Lax' aggression, I will interfere. He is quite correct in what he has just put. CHAIRPERSON Yes, he has retracted that, I don't think that we should go back to that. MR LAX Well you see, if that isn't the plan, if the plan isn't to neutralise her comrades who know about her and who suspect her, then what was the object of the plan because that is the reason you gave us earlier for this plan? What different object was there? MR JANTJIE Chairperson, our objective was to neutralise those people who suspected Betty and we wanted to get information from different sources, that is the people who were working with her. MR LAX But you see the problem with the second part of your answer, to get information from different sources, the problem with that is that you have told us that she was going to be the channel through which they report to you, so that doesn't make sense? They couldn't give you anything more than she already knew and in any event, it would be channelled through her, so they couldn't possibly, the object couldn't have been to get information from them? Do you understand? MR JANTJIE I do understand Chairperson. I will explain. It could have happened, Betty knew something about the people who working with her. Maybe Tax Janaman could also meet somebody who belonged to the Western Cape machinery, and that is the kind of information that would add to the information that we would receive from Betty. MR LAX But Betty is the Commander of the entire machinery and you only needed one contact point? MR JANTJIE No Chairperson, like I have already explained that she would give us information about the people who were working with her and one of the people who was working with her, could also meet somebody who was working elsewhere and he could give that information to Betty. Although our only source would be Betty, but then we would have different channels that were bringing in the information to our source. CHAIRPERSON Are you not answering these questions with hindsight, now you know that this was highly placed person that your planning wouldn't have gelled? MR JANTJIE I agree with you Chairperson. MR LAX With regard to your informer, I am not going to ask you for his or her identity, but was the informer who told you about Betty, the same informer that told you about Ngono? CHAIRPERSON Ngono? You said Ngone? MR LAX No, I said Ngono? MR JANTJIE No, they are different informers, Chairperson. MR LAX And were those different informers also that you then approached to find out if the suspicions in the community had subsided? MR JANTJIE No Chairperson. There is only informer that told us about the suspicion, not this one that we used to get Ngono. MR LAX This informer of yours, was it a person placed within the structures of the ANC or was it a person placed within the structures of that community? MR JANTJIE He was just a Lesotho citizen, Chairperson. MR LAX And the one about Ngono? MR JANTJIE He was also a Lesotho citizen. MR LAX These border guards that you kept passing on a daily or weekly basis, did they know that you were policemen? MR JANTJIE Yes Chairperson. MR LAX So, if they saw you with other people in your vehicle, they would have assumed that these were people you were taking out of the country, because you were policemen? MR JANTJIE No Chairperson, because they knew us, they would not bother to know who the people were who were with us. We would just pass through because they knew us, that is on the Republic side and on the Lesotho side. MR LAX Weren't they worried that you might be arresting Lesotho citizens, taking them out of the country to another jurisdiction where you didn't have any authority over them? MR JANTJIE: No Chairperson. MR LAX And they wouldn't want to enquire about that? MR JANTJIE No Chairperson, they did nothing. MR LAX I see. Let's go to Roma University and the police station near there. Who was Commander of that police station? MR JANTJIE I don't know Chairperson. MR LAX Do you say you don't know or you just don't remember? MR JANTJIE I don't know Chairperson. MR LAX Well, how did you establish contacts with policemen in that police station to gain their co-operation to help you with an operation like this one? MR JANTJIE I will explain this way, Chairperson. The Lesotho police or the police who were stationed at the places near Maseru, most of the time were the people who were close to our Commander and they used to come and attend the braai, party, at Ladybrand. We would do likewise when they made braais in their areas, we would be invited. In that way I was trying to know them better, so that when I go to those places, I know certain people there, so that I can say "do you remember me"? If that is the person that I met before, then I will make my request to him. That is how we got to know the Lesotho police and that is why they helped us. CHAIRPERSON Wouldn't it be that you say "hi Motata, it is me", simply just go to a stranger and say "do you remember me"? Why can't you say "hi Motata, do you remember me"? That is what my colleague is trying to get at here? MR JANTJIE Chairperson, I have a problem in remembering people's names, but we had codenames or we used to call ourselves "swaer", that was the name that we used amongst ourselves, that was the people in the Republic and the people in Lesotho. Most of the time you will meet many people and it would not be easy to remember his name, so you just say "swaer", and then you continue with your discussion with the people. CHAIRPERSON But wouldn't you think this is of importance, and I am speaking of Lesotho, correct me if I am mistaken, that is not a big country like South Africa and not to know everybody, but at least to know the Commanders of those few police stations in Lesotho, for the nature of the work that you are doing? Wouldn't that be important, at least? I am not saying know the whole Police Force, but the Commanders of the police stations? MR JANTJIE Yes, that would be important Chairperson, but we were not working with the Station Commanders, we were working with people who were in the same field as us. CHAIRPERSON So these braais were - you issued cordial invitations, excluded Commanders of the police stations? MR JANTJIE Yes, Chairperson, we would not invite the Station Commanders. CHAIRPERSON Thank you, you may proceed, Mr Lax. MR LAX So this was an informal arrangement, it wasn't a question of co-operation between the two Police Forces on a formal level? MR JANTJIE I would say so, Chairperson. Sometimes you will find that my Commander would have contact with the Commander in Maseru or maybe with somebody in the Headquarters of Maseru, so you would not invite people yourself. That is how the braais were arranged. CHAIRPERSON Let's talk of Roma. Was that Commander ever invited? Let's not talk about generalities, we will take a very long time, because these are the generalities, you would agree with me, won't help us, because we are speaking of a specific case where somebody was abducted? MR JANTJIE Yes, I agree with you Chairperson, I did not know the Commander at that station. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. MR LAX Did you know that there were formal Committees established in which the Security Forces and the Police of Lesotho met with representatives of the Police and Security Forces of South Africa on a regular basis to exchange information? You didn't know that? MR JANTJIE I know only one Committee that was established. MR LAX What was that Committee? MR JANTJIE Although I don't know the name of that Committee, but I know there used to be meetings to share information, that is between the Commander of the Special Branch in Ladybrand and the Military Intelligence of Lesotho. MR LAX Mr van der Westhuizen was part of that Committee, one of his jobs was to serve on that Committee, together if my memory serves me correct, and I wouldn't want to impugn him incorrectly, and the Chair can correct me, but I understand your Commander was also a member of that Committee? CHAIRPERSON Not his Commander per se, the Head of the Branch? MR LAX Yes, Mr Fouche? CHAIRPERSON Yes, Mr Fouche, not Mr Robertshaw, because Mr Robertshaw was your Commander, direct Commander, would I be right? MR JANTJIE I used to report to Mr Robertshaw because he was the second in command after Mr Fouche. It is true, Mr Fouche as my Commander, used to attend those meetings. CHAIRPERSON I was just clearing it up so that there is no misunderstanding. MR LAX So, you just happened to find any old two policemen at the police station that day, who you vaguely recognised and said "hi 'swaer', we've got a job to do, we want you to help us"? MR JANTJIE Like I have explained Chairperson, I had a problem in remembering people's names ... CHAIRPERSON No, no, not go back to that. He is just, he is asking you this question having that in mind, that is why he said "hi 'swaer', I've got this problem, would you assist me", he is answering in the background that you have given. Don't go back to it. MR JANTJIE That is so, Chairperson. MR LAX How did you know those two policemen would help you to arrest somebody? MR JANTJIE We already knew those people, but even though they refused, we would just go back. MR LAX But why would you go back? Why did you need their help to do the job at all? MR JANTJIE We had already decided, myself and Mr Thulo, that we were going to take Mr Ngono to the farm, because we decided that we are not going to recruit him there, that is at the University of Roma. MR LAX You see, what if these policemen were good Lesotho policemen and they decided "hang on a second, we cannot get involved in this sort of nonsense, we are taking a refugee, we are handing them over to our neighbour. He has committed an offence here, he should be tried and arrested in this country?" It was possible that one of them might have said that to you, isn't it? MR JANTJIE I would not say so, but let me explain. I would request the Chair to allow me to explain this issue. CHAIRPERSON You know what, I now experience problems and I'm saying this with your best interest, that you are prolonging the clarifications they need from you, by introducing a lot of things. You know some of the answers or questions I've listened to needed a yes or no, but you want to give us this lots of background and out of that background more questions are asked around that background. But I would not deny you that, but I want to alert you why you're now being asked questions for two days, that you are the source of this and it is not my wish that somebody should be asked questions this long. But I'll allow you, if you so wish, to give those background explanations you wish to give. MR JANTJIE Chairperson, I have heard what you say and I would retract that explanation. May I please request the question from Mr Lax. MR LAX It's very simple. How did you know those people would cooperate with you? MR JANTJIE We didn't know, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Probably the aroma of the meat would make then cooperate. MR JANTJIE Maybe, Chairperson. MR LAX Weren't you taking a risk that they might turn around and say to you: "What on earth do you think you're doing here, you can't do a thing like that?" MR JANTJIE No, Chairperson. MR LAX So what you're saying is in essence is that you could operate with impunity in Lesotho, 'cause you had nothing to worry about, nobody would do anything to you? MR JANTJIE That is so, Chairperson. MR LAX Now these two policemen came with you to search this place. MR JANTJIE That is so, Chairperson. MR LAX What did they do with the handgrenade? MR JANTJIE We left it there, Chairperson at the police station. MR LAX You didn't find out whether anyone was prosecuted for its possession? MR JANTJIE No, we did not, Chairperson. MR LAX When you never heard of Ngono again and he didn't contact you and you presumed that the recruitment had gone haywire, didn't go back to those policemen and say well, let's make a plan with him, let's arrest him, you have this handgrenade, at least get him deported, 'cause he's not cooperating? MR JANTJIE No, Chairperson, we did not go back. MR LAX You never made any efforts to look for him in Lesotho? MR JANTJIE No, Chairperson. MR LAX Thanks, Chair. CHAIRPERSON Nor did you ask your informer, that is the one who informed you about KK, to say "what has happened to KK?" MR JANTJIE No, Chairperson, we did not ask. CHAIRPERSON Thank you, Mr Lax. I see we have just gone five minutes past one, we would adjourn for lunch at this juncture, until 2 o'clock. COMMITTEE ADJOURNS ON RESUMPTION LESIZI MICHAEL JANTJIE (s.u.o.) CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Before we proceed with Mr Jantjie, I'm not certain about our availability tomorrow. In "our" I mean the legal representatives, because it would appear we are adopting a snail's pace. So I just wanted to enquire, because it would have been lovelier if we probably tried to conclude this matter, this application. MR VISSER Yes. Chairperson, Visser on record, we certainly share your sentiments and hopes. Two issues. On your question, yes, we will be available tomorrow. I was informed that my attorney was asked whether we would be available until lunchtime, because I know that Members of the Committee normally prefer to sit not later than 1 o'clock on a Friday, so that they could make their travel arrangements to get back to their homes within a reasonable time on a Friday afternoon, and I said yes of course we will be available, Chairperson. The only issue - so that covers that. The only issue which we'll have to decide on before we adjourn is the issue of Mr Thulo, but I don't want to raise it now, I just want to mention it. CHAIRPERSON Whilst you are at it, Mr Visser, I looked at the medical certificate, it would appear that he had to go back to work today, according to the doctor, but he has to come back for a check-up or something. It's the 12th today. MR VISSER Well I was given to understand something slightly different, I was given to understand that he's in bed and he's going to be there until the 12th, which is today. But it might be that your reading of it is accurate. Is your suggestion that we must try and get him here tomorrow, Chairperson? CHAIRPERSON I said if it's possible, I mean I don't know, but it reads as follows "From work from the 9th up to and including 11/10/2000. Date of return to work: 12/10/2000" MR VISSER Yes, you're quite correct. What confused me is the next sentence which says he must return on the 21/10 for medical attention. CHAIRPERSON Ja, 11 or 12. MR VISSER But that could fit in with your reading of this, yes. CHAIRPERSON Ja, I said at some stage you can find out, because it would be desirable if we were to know. MR VISSER However, if we go at the same pace, there's no possibility even of thinking that he might come on tomorrow. But can we leave that decision until we adjourn this afternoon and see how far we get? If we can finish with both these witnesses, if something wonderful happens and we do that, then we can certainly try to get him here overnight and lead his evidence tomorrow. Chairperson, and then the second issue is really, well the third issue is, is there some indication to you at this stage whether my learned friends on the other side of the room are going to call any witnesses, because that's going to influence the situation as well. CHAIRPERSON That's a good question, I'll pose it to them shortly, but let me find out about their availability tomorrow. MR VISSER Thank you, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Mr Mapoma, I won't ask you, you are with, well as long as I am here you are here. It's a given. Mr Malindi? MR MALINDI Chairperson, I will be available tomorrow, my learned friend, Mr Koopedi, is not available henceforth, for the rest of the afternoon, but he might be available tomorrow. In any event, I will be available tomorrow. CHAIRPERSON Just the last question raised by Mr Visser. Are you people going to call any witnesses? MR MALINDI Chairperson, we have seriously considered that question and there is a strong possibility that we will call at least four witnesses, who will be very short witnesses. CHAIRPERSON When you say that possibility, is it dependent on what you hear? MR MALINDI Chairperson, let me put it this way, we are going to call four witnesses to give very brief evidence, at least in chief, I think they would not last longer than fifteen minutes each. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. So we have an hour, we'll take it from 4 o'clock this afternoon, because I think at four we'll have an indication whether we pick up our pace or not. MR MALINDI As the Chairperson pleases. CHAIRPERSON Thank you, Mr Malindi. Mr Jantjie, when we adjourned you were asked questions by Members of my Panel. MR JANTJIE Yes, I do understand, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON And my colleague on the right had indicated that he has finished asking questions. MR JANTJIE Yes, Chairperson. So we'll ask Mr Sibanyoni if he has any questions for clarification. MR SIBANYONI Thank you, Mr Chairperson, I do have. Mr Jantjie, I take it that you fully know the purpose of this Act, the TRC Act, was it fully explained to you? MR JANTJIE Yes, Chairperson. MR SIBANYONI In other words, you are aware that you've got to tell the truth and then also you'll have to show us that what you did was politically motivated. MR JANTJIE Yes, I do, Chairperson. MR SIBANYONI And whatever, or how gruesome the act may be, as long as you comply with those requirements you may be entitled to get amnesty. You are fully aware of that? MR JANTJIE Yes, I do know Chairperson. MR SIBANYONI Okay. Let me start by following on what the Chairperson was asking you about the incident Mr Henri van der Westhuizen was talking about. He told us that during that operation you people brought back or abducted Simon Mogetla, otherwise known as Comrade Old Timer. Does it ring a bell to you? MR JANTJIE Yes, I do remember Mr Mogetla. MR SIBANYONI And when he was asked what eventually happened to Mr Mogetla, he said he was later sent back to Lesotho. Do you also remember it like that? MR JANTJIE Yes, I do remember that he went back to Lesotho, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Mr Sibanyoni, let me just - the precise name here. I seem to have heard you say Magetla and he's speaking of Mogetla. MR JANTJIE His name is Mageta. CHAIRPERSON Simon? MR JANTJIE Simon Mageta. CHAIRPERSON It would appear we are speaking about the same person. I just wanted to establish that. Did you know him as Old Timer? MR JANTJIE Yes, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. MR SIBANYONI So do you now recall the incident where he was captured and brought back to South Africa, to Ladybrand? MR JANTJIE I know little about Mr Mageta, his arrival at Ladybrand. MR SIBANYONI Were you part of the team which brought him back from Lesotho to Ladybrand? MR JANTJIE No, I was not part of that group, Chairperson. MR SIBANYONI Well according to Mr Henry van der Westhuizen, he says you were ...(intervention) MR LAX Sorry Chairperson, if I might just intervene. I think my colleague is maybe a bit confused in the sense that my recollection of Van der Westhuizen's statement was that Mr Jantjie went together with some of the Vlakplaas people to a house where a shooting engagement happened. However, another group of the same people had gone to Magetla's place and brought him back on the same evening and someone else had mistakenly thought the next morning, that Van der Westhuizen was partly responsible for bringing him back and congratulated him for that. And I think that's where the confusion happens. He then went on to say well, he didn't understand why he'd been congratulated and at a later time he'd got into trouble for being part of that. CHAIRPERSON Just for clarity, I've got a note here: "Mr Simon Mogetla (as he called him) was abducted by another team", not the team that went into Lesotho where you were part of what he said initially. Do you recall I said to you Mr Henri van der Westhuizen said you people left in two cars and your car proceeded to a house where there was a shoot-out and apparently this Simon was abducted, but not by those people who went in with Mr Henri van der Westhuizen, it was by another team. So in other words, it's that you were not part of the abduction of Mr Mageta. Okay? I just wanted to be absolutely clear. MR JANTJIE I do understand, Chairperson. MR SIBANYONI Thank you, Mr Chairperson, I stand corrected. Now Mr Jantjie, on the occasion when Betty Boom was phoning Tax, were you with her or was she alone? When she was phoning to say there will be people coming to her, when she was making arrangements. Did she do it privately or were you present? MR JANTJIE We were with her, Chairperson. MR SIBANYONI You said you trusted her, were you always with her, or was there some occasions where she would be alone? MR JANTJIE We were always with her, Chairperson, apart from when she wanted to go to the toilet, because we only had the outside toilet and we let her go alone there. MR SIBANYONI Where was she living during the time she was at Ladybrand? MR JANTJIE She was there at the farm, Chairperson. MR SIBANYONI So what is the position, are there houses, if so, how many? On the farm. MR JANTJIE I remember that house, that is the main house, there was also one house that was used by the workers on the farm, if I'm not mistaken Chairperson. MR SIBANYONI So there were also workers staying in the same house you were using? MR JANTJIE No, Chairperson. MR SIBANYONI They were staying in their own houses on the farm? MR JANTJIE There was only farm worker who had his own house, not this one that we used. MR SIBANYONI You are unable to give us the name of the farm, but whenever referring to that farm, what were you people saying? MR JANTJIE We never mentioned the name of the farm, Chairperson, because the arrangements about this farm were made by somebody, not myself. That is Mr Jagga who would know, I think. MR SIBANYONI Right. These other people, that is Nomasonto, as well as Tax, what benefit would they have obtained for working for the police? How did you convince them, what would they benefit by working for the police? MR JANTJIE We promised them that we will pay them every month, depending on the information that they shall have given to us. MR SIBANYONI Were there any figures mentioned as to how much they would get? MR JANTJIE No, Chairperson, we did not mention or discuss any amount with them. MR SIBANYONI You said in case you failed to recruit these people you would have taken them back into Lesotho, if you fail to recruit a person you'll take that person back to Lesotho. How would you prevent that person from continuing with his or her activities, from continuing with the struggle? MR JANTJIE May you please repeat the question, Chairperson. MR SIBANYONI When you were asked that in case you didn't succeed to have these people recruited to work for the police, you would have returned them to Lesotho and just leave them. My question is, then how would you prevent them from continuing with the struggle? MR JANTJIE Chairperson, we would use our informers so that we know their activities in that country. MR SIBANYONI Right. Are you saying there was never an operation where you were part of it and Vlakplaas or Eugene de Kock was also present? Is that your evidence? MR JANTJIE Not a single one, Chairperson. MR SIBANYONI And you were a member of the Special Branch at Ladybrand? MR JANTJIE That is so, Chairperson. MR SIBANYONI Henri van der Westhuizen specifically said his task was to support the Special Branch at Ladybrand, what is your comment about his statement? MR JANTJIE I agree with what you say, Chairperson. MR SIBANYONI That you are aware that he was there to support the Special Branch? MR JANTJIE What I know about the people who used to come to the farm is that those were the people who would come and exchange information with us about the people, the MK people in Lesotho. MR SIBANYONI He also said very often whenever the Special Branch went into Lesotho, the Special Forces as well as Vlakplaas was giving them backup or was assisting them. What is your comment about that? In other words, there would be some joint operations between Special Branch, Special Forces, as well as the team from Vlakplaas. Like the one where there was some shoot-out, as well as where Mageta was abducted. MR JANTJIE Chairperson, I dispute that. MR SIBANYONI Have you told this Committee everything you know insofar as the incidents for which you are applying for amnesty? Have you given all the information, or is there anything which you want to say? Because if I may explain, this is your last opportunity, the Amnesty Committee is the last opportunity to tell everything which happened. What is your answer? MR JANTJIE That is so, Chairperson. MR SIBANYONI Thank you, Mr Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Mr Jantjie, from which area did Ms Betty Boom come from, do you know? MR JANTJIE Yes, I do. CHAIRPERSON Where did she come from? MR JANTJIE She is from Bloemfontein, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON I will tell you why I ask this, because on page 53 we have a statement by Buthelezi, Maj BB Buthelezi, commenced Maj BB Buthelezi, he says she vanished and if I follow you, you say she went back to Lesotho, but it would appear she was never seen there again. You can have sight of page 53/54 of the comments by BB Buthelezi. MR JANTJIE Yes, I do see that part, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON And you are steadfast that she was returned to Lesotho? MR JANTJIE Yes, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON After she said she was being recalled to Lusaka, have you heard of her again? MR JANTJIE We never heard anything from her or about her since the time she was called to Lusaka. CHAIRPERSON After you made contact with her and she agreed to work for the Security Police, the informer who initially told you about her, did he tell you what has happened to her? MR JANTJIE No, Chairperson, he did not tell us. CHAIRPERSON Not you bear knowledge that she did in fact go back to Lusaka, as requested by her organisation? MR JANTJIE No, Chairperson, I don't know. CHAIRPERSON Point 7 on page 53, Buthelezi says Tax Sejanamane was actually arrested in QwaQwa, long before the disappearance of Betty. In other words, what he's saying here is that he couldn't have been recruited because when Betty disappeared, Tax was somebody who was arrested in QwaQwa already. MR JANTJIE Yes, I do see that point, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Let me just read it to you, I don't think I'm giving you the correct version "Tax Sejanamane was actually arrested in QwaQwa long before Betty arrived" I think he wanted to say in Lesotho. You hear what I'm saying? MR JANTJIE Yes, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON What this is suggesting, I'm not saying it is so, that is my reading of it, is that when you recruited Tax with the assistance of Ms Betty Boom, this couldn't be so. MR JANTJIE Chairperson, I say I read for the first time in this statement that Tax Sejanamane was arrested in QwaQwa. When we recruited Tax we were helped by Betty. I don't know whether Mr Buthelezi did which investigations, but what I know is that in December of that year we went to fetch Tax. And it is true. CHAIRPERSON And he speaks of Mbulelo in the next paragraph, 8 "Coming to Mbulelo, in the first place he was involved in two operations which made him to be the most wanted man in South Africa" then he says: "According to Jantjie he was sent to recruit Mbulelo somewhere in December" and he says: "This is yet another lie, because Mbulelo left Lesotho around September 1987, and was always in the company of Tjweni Makupo, Maj Matle. They only arrived in Lesotho early in February, after they were engaged in a shoot-out in Transkei, where Fana was killed." You get the reading, or is it translated? MR JANTJIE I do understand, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON And he says that, I'm just paging over to 54, and the first sentence there "Already Mbulelo was a wanted man and there is no way in which he could have just easily agreed to go to Betty. And the truth is, Mbulelo was taken away from Roma by the Lesotho Police and handed him over to the South African Police at the Maseru Police Station, in the presence of his girlfriend. That is why the ANC leadership was pressurising Lesotho Government through the UN and OAU, demanding that Mbulelo be deported to Lusaka or Tanzania." Then what it means is that the girlfriend was there as well. That's the import I want to put across to you. And according to you, you say he was taken there alone from Roma, if I followed your evidence. MR JANTJIE That is so, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON I don't know what this sentence ... but for what it is worth, let me put it to you that you respond to it. That would be 11 "The Lesotho police who were on duty around the 15th March 1988, can also prove beyond reasonable doubt that they were the ones who handed over Mbulelo to the South African Police." MR JANTJIE I dispute this, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Did you, when Mbulelo for instance, was recruited by yourself and your colleagues, did he mention that he was ever incarcerated in QwaQwa? MR JANTJIE No, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON What did you want to know from these people? That is what is bothering me. Because you get people, what you get, the tenure of your evidence sounds like this to me. You abduct these people and you say: "Would you work for us?" They agree, that's the end of the story. That is bothering me because I don't think normally, I must be fair to you, as I sit here I have listened to so many stories and how the intelligence community operated, I've heard many stories how informers were recruited, how askaris were recruited, but I'm hearing this for the first time, that a person would normally just be approached: "Will you work for us", and he agrees and this is the end of the story. Wouldn't you get worried if you were seated where I am sitting and you have heard such stories and say now why is this intelligence community from Ladybrand operating in a vacuum, having their own modus operandi, wouldn't you be worried? MR JANTJIE Yes, Chairperson, I would be worried. CHAIRPERSON At least to say to Mbulelo Ngono: "Where do you come from", get some background about this person, but I haven't heard anything of that nature. MR JANTJIE That is so, Chairperson. When you meet a person you will write his full names and his MK names and those are the particulars that you would include in his file as an informer and he would explain to you that: "I am working at a particular place". For example, whether he was working in the Free State or in the Eastern Cape, you take all his particulars in full and where he comes from and in which year did he go to exile and how did he manage to cross over to Lesotho, and where did he apply for political asylum. Those are the important issues that we would record about a person. CHAIRPERSON And wouldn't you make sure, for instance, that look, these people would work for us, not only find out "hey, we will pay you, go back to Lesotho and work for us"? You must be absolutely certain that you have converted this person. We are speaking of trained people here, trained people who left the country because they were dissatisfied about the regime and they wanted to overturn that regime, we are not speaking of ordinary disgruntled people. MR JANTJIE That is so, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Because this BB Buthelezi goes on further to say that "Mbulelo had another name" I think he said Tebogo, I think so. Yes, his combat name. No, no, that's that Nomasonto Mashiya, her combat name was Tebogo. Did you know that? MR JANTJIE No, I did not know this name, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Now you had these informers, when they told you about this trio, did they tell you that this trio is Ms Betty Boom, Nomasonto Mashiya and Tax Sejanamane? MR JANTJIE No, Chairperson, our informer told us about Betty Boom. CHAIRPERSON And when Betty spoke to Tax, for instance, Sejanamane, did she call him Tax Sejanamane? MR JANTJIE She called him Tax, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Do you know in that respect again, in all fairness to you, these MK cadres came from various parts of the country and what we have heard over the years is that they would have pseudo names, or MK names, and in most instances they didn't even know the colleagues whom they were operating with, what their real names were. They wouldn't even know that. MR JANTJIE Yes, I agree with you, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON And this kind of information you didn't get. MR JANTJIE No, Chairperson, I didn't have that kind of information. CHAIRPERSON And on page 51, it's an affidavit of Trevor James Sepho Pitso, he speaks of Betty having two houses. Did you know that? MR JANTJIE No, Chairperson, I didn't know about the second house. CHAIRPERSON Because in that paragraph 3, Trevor Pitso says "On arriving in Maseru, I called Betty's telephone number and had no response for the entire festive season period, whereupon I established from the Lesotho telecoms (LTC) how they could help me trace the address of the number and I was accordingly assisted in this regard. I then visited the said house and the domestic worker explained to me that she last saw Betty on the 16th December 1987, when she allegedly left for one of her usual meetings. On this occasion though the housekeeper expressed her concerns that it was unusual for Betty not to call about her prolonged absence from the house, so that proper housekeeping arrangements could be made. It later emerged that Tax, allegedly resembling the South Africa Defence Force, (SADF) had collected her household belongings early in 1988, under the guise that Betty had sent for these to be removed. This situation pertained as well as to her other house outside Maseru." What I'm reading and what I want to put to you is that she was never seen again and according to what you have testified, is that you saw her, abducted her and returned her to Lesotho and you further made contact with her and the last contact is when Betty said she's required in Lusaka, to come back to Lusaka. But the reading is that it was a once off thing. That's my reading, I'm not saying it's true, but in all fairness I must put this to you. MR JANTJIE Chairperson, I do not agree with what is written here, the statement that appears on this affidavit. In other words, let me not just say I do not agree with what is written here. I don't know anything about what is written here by Mr Pitso. CHAIRPERSON And this person went to Lusaka, apparently. He says "In the meantime Betty's other colleagues in another machinery also seemed to be concerned about her failure to turn up for successive meetings, which would have been used to inform her about my presence in Lesotho. Insofar as I am concerned, Betty was unheard of in our ranks in Lesotho, up till the time I left for Lusaka, Zambia in mid-1989." MR JANTJIE I understand that, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON He would appear to be a comrade in the ranks of the liberation movement. He was actually an MK. And it would appear he's holding a high position within - probably you know him, he says he is "I am currently resident in Bloemfontein and employed by the Department of Safety and Security" which is now your same department, would it be? That's the Department of Safety and Security would be the same department, South African Police Services, under Steve Tshwete. MR JANTJIE Yes, I do hear that, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON No, no, I'm saying it would be, you would have the same boss, Mr Steve Tshwete, because you are the South African Police Services and he's the ... oh. And in the Free State Provincial Government as Deputy Director, Security Administration. So he's not just an ordinary person who was just in the MK, he returned to hold a high position within the administration of the South African Government. MR JANTJIE Yes, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON And he says in paragraph 1 "On or about the 24th December 1987, I arrived in Maseru, Lesotho, the main aim being to establish contact with Betty (Joyce Boom her real name)" Did you know she was Joyce? MR JANTJIE Yes, Chairperson, I knew that Joyce was one of her names. CHAIRPERSON Did it concern you to know what eventually happened to these people? I'm asking you that question that you had established contact with them, they agreed to inform against their organisation and when they vanished from the face of Lesotho, did it concern you that they might go back and say this is what happened whilst we were in Lesotho? MR JANTJIE Our decision, Chairperson, was that they could have returned to Lusaka, to their Headquarters and we will not be able to see them again, so as to meet the arrangements that we have made with them. CHAIRPERSON Because you know my concern is that your farm was under threat, some other people would be sent back and that farm may have been attacked. MR JANTJIE That could happen, Chairperson, but that is not something that I thought about, more especially the attack on the farm which I did not know the owner. CHAIRPERSON Now lastly, Buthelezi says again in paragraph 3 "She was always in close contact with Mphilo. They both handled our monthly allowances." So what Buthelezi is saying is that she was not the only custodian of the allowances which were sent in monthly, they were handled jointly. Did you know that kind of information, because you spoke about her financial dire straits? MR JANTJIE No, Chairperson, I did not know that Betty and Mphilo were the people who handled the monthly allowances. She only told us that most of the time she would receive money late and the money that she would receive was very little. CHAIRPERSON Thank you, Mr Jantjie. MR JANTJIE Thank you, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Mr Visser, anything arising from what the Panel has asked? MR VISSER No, thank you Chairperson, nothing I can't deal with in argument. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Mr Malindi. MR MALINDI Chairperson, I have a few aspects to canvass. MR VISSER Chairperson, I'm at a loss to understand what's going on now. Who is Mr Malindi appearing for? I thought Mr Koopedi was his instructing attorney. CHAIRPERSON He just explained to us that Mr Koopedi won't be with us again, he's taking over. MR VISSER Yes, but Chairperson, two people can't cross-examine the same person. We know that's the rule of evidence. I mean, that would be a fatal irregularity if that happens. CHAIRPERSON This is just matters ...(indistinct) Mr Visser. MR MALINDI Thank you, Chairperson. Chairperson, am I expected to respond to the submission? CHAIRPERSON No, no. MR MALINDI Thank you, Chairperson. Mr Jantjie, ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON Could I first come in, Mr Malindi? MR MALINDI Yes. CHAIRPERSON Mr Jantjie, do not be surprised that you are asked questions by Adv Malindi, Mr Malindi arrived late yesterday, not late in the sense of late, we knew that he wouldn't make it timeously, but he's briefed by the firm which Mr Koopedi is in - you remember you were asked questions by Mr Koopedi, so this is an Advocate employed by Mr Koopedi. Okay? MR JANTJIE Yes, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON They are here for the victims, so I don't want you to be surprised and say who is this gentleman, okay. Mr Malindi. CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MALINDI Thank you, Chairperson. Mr Jantjie, in view of the evidence of Henri van der Westhuizen, which relayed to you by the Panel, I would like to ask you a few questions. What car did you use when you went into Lesotho from your Ladybrand base? MR JANTJIE I have explained that we were using two cars. I wasn't saying that we could not get another car. MR MALINDI Was any of those two cars a 4X4? MR JANTJIE Yes, Chairperson. MR MALINDI Were they both 4X4s? MR JANTJIE No, Chairperson. MR MALINDI Is it - do you deny that you were part of the unit which Van der Westhuizen speaks about, which was involved in a shoot-out with some ANC members in Lesotho? MR VISSER He's already denied it, Chairperson. He says he never operated with any Vlakplaas members. CHAIRPERSON Yes, he says categorically that he was never with Mr van der Westhuizen, Snor Vermeulen, Steve Bosch and Nortje, into Lesotho he was never. MR MALINDI Was your unit from Ladybrand ever involved in a shoot-out inside the borders of Lesotho? MR VISSER That's an entirely irregular and irrelevant question. I object to that question. It does not arise from evidence, Chairperson, and I wish my learned friend to stick to what he undertook to do and that is to deal with issues arising. CHAIRPERSON It never arose from what the Panel asked, Mr Malindi. MR MALINDI Chairperson, maybe not ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON What I'm asking is that, because we are at the stage that we wanted some clarification and whoever asks questions from now must be based on what we asked, the three of us asked and nothing else. MR MALINDI I understand that, Chairperson, but in view of the fact that Van der Westhuizen's evidence, I would have thought that I would be entitled to explore whether hew as involved in any shoot-out, and if the answer is yes, then it may collaborate Van der Westhuizen's evidence. CHAIRPERSON No, no, it cannot come out. MR VISSER Chairperson, with great respect, Van der Westhuizen, if you're going to rely on his evidence, we all know he's got to be called. So the whole issue falls away. Let Van der Westhuizen come and speak for himself and we'll cross-examine him. CHAIRPERSON We cannot allow that one. MR MALINDI As the Committee pleases. Chairperson, may I put a few, about two statements to the witness, which my learned friend omitted to put? MR VISSER With respect, Chairperson, I'm going to object now, really. CHAIRPERSON No. MR MALINDI Thank you, Chairperson, no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MALINDI CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Mr Mapoma. FURTHER CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MAPOMA Just one, Chairperson. On page 54 of the paginated bundle, Mr Jantjie, the Chairperson read to you the paragraph or the sentence contained in paragraph 11 of the statement by Maj Buthelezi. The first sentence in that paragraph was read to you and your response was that you dispute what is contained there. What is it that you dispute there? CHAIRPERSON I would allow you just to have that sentence before you say anything, Mr Jantjie. Do you have it? It's actually a sentence that - it's a longish paragraph, but I want you to be careful and not just say X, look at the statement and tell Mr Mapoma what you are disputing. MR JANTJIE When I say I dispute this, I was saying that what is written here in this paragraph is something that I don't know and I don't know how Mr Buthelezi got this, because I really don't know what is written here by Mr Buthelezi. CHAIRPERSON The whole paragraph is disputed in toto, Mr Mapoma. MR MAPOMA No, Mr Jantjie, the Chairperson read to you the sentence which says "The Lesotho police who were on duty around the 15th March 1988, can also proved beyond reasonable doubt that they were the ones who handed over Mbulelo to the then South African Police." And that is all that the Chairperson read, and requested your response. You said you dispute this. You're explanation is not ...(indistinct) enough. He was referring to only this, not the paragraph. Do you dispute what is contained in this sentence at all? MR JANTJIE I was saying what Mr Buthelezi says is beyond my knowledge. If those policemen can be called who were there on the 15th March, maybe they will say what happened there. MR LAX Sorry, could I just interpose here? The issue of the 15th of March, this thing happened 20 years ago, more, is it not possible you might be making a mistake, that it might have happened on the 15th of March and instead of being one or two weeks after you took Betty, it might have been one or two months after you took Betty? The time, maybe it's got mixed up in your head, is that not possible? MR JANTJIE No, Chairperson. MR MAPOMA I'm not clear still, what is it exactly that you dispute in this sentence? Do you dispute that the police of Lesotho who were on duty on the 15th of March can prove that Mbulelo was handed over to the South African Police? MR JANTJIE Chairperson, I'm trying to say that if those policemen who were on duty on the 15th of March 1988, if they gave Mbulelo over to the South African Police, that can be true, but not to me because the last time I saw Mbulelo was in December 1987. CHAIRPERSON Mr Mapoma, my understanding is that he disputes the date. MR MAPOMA Yes, thank you, Chairperson. Thank you, Mr Jantjie. MR JANTJIE I thank you, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Anything further? MR MAPOMA Thank you, Chairperson, nothing further. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MAPOMA CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Mr Visser. MR VISSER Thank you, Chairperson. No, I've got no questions to the witness arising, can he be excused? CHAIRPERSON I wanted to say that, but I have to establish from you whether there was anything. MR VISSER No, thank you Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Mr Jantjie, you are excused. WITNESS EXCUSED MR VISSER Chairperson, could they swop chairs, because I wish to call Mr Jagga as the next witness. He wishes to address you in Afrikaans. He has no objection to taking the oath. CHAIRPERSON Mr Visser, could I do this? I sent people to the bank, I just wanted to find out if they have problems ...(indistinct), could we adjourn whilst they do that? COMMITTEE ADJOURNS