amntrans AMNESTY HEARINGS 2000-10-12 JOHANNESBURG 2 ANTONIE JAGGA AM7106/97 https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=54547&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/2000/201012jb.htm ON RESUMPTION CHAIRPERSON Thank you, I'm indebted to the legal representatives for the indulgence. Mr Jagga, could you just for the record give us your full names. ANTONIE JAGGA (sworn states) CHAIRPERSON Please be seated. EXAMINATION BY MR VISSER Mr Jagga, you are also an applicant and you request amnesty for your part in the incidents about which you will testify now. MR JAGGA That is correct, Chairperson. MR VISSER Your application appears in the bundle from page 2 to page 7, the application that you handed in to the TRC, is that correct? MR JAGGA That is correct, Chairperson. MR VISSER And this is dated the 6th of May 1997. MR JAGGA That is correct, Chairperson. MR VISSER Do you confirm the contents of that statement, according to your knowledge is true and correct? MR JAGGA That's correct, Chairperson. MR VISSER And would you like this to be incorporated into your evidence? MR JAGGA Yes, please Chairperson. MR VISSER You afterwards held comprehensive consultation with your legal representatives and for the benefit of the Committee a statement was drawn up, which contains your evidence of what you can recall about this incident and that document is also in the bundle, from page 7A to 7K, is that correct? MR JAGGA That is correct, Chairperson. MR VISSER And do you make the same confirmations with regard to the contents thereof with regard to this document? MR JAGGA Yes, Chairperson. MR VISSER On page 1 you request that paragraph 7A - Chairperson, I refer there to page 55, that was in the previous record, Chairperson, so you'll just ignore the reference to page 55. CHAIRPERSON Okay, thank you. MR VISSER You request that that part be amended - I'm sorry, Chairperson, may I just ask which is the channel that has the direct ... CHAIRPERSON Afrikaans would be 1. MR VISSER I had 1 and that seems to be a translation - oh, 0. Thank you, Chairperson. "U vra dan dat paragrawe 7A gewysig moet word en vervang moet word met die woorde: "Nasionale Party" en 7B, dat u 'n "Ondersteuner" was, is dit reg? PROBLEMS WITH CHANNELS INTERPRETER I apologise, Chairperson, it's my mistake. MR VISSER Exhibit A, you have also studied Exhibit A, the document with regard to the general background. MR JAGGA That is correct, Chairperson. MR VISSER And except for the reference to the parts with regard to Botswana and Swaziland, you are able, according to your knowledge and experience you are able to confirm that document and you request that that also be considered with along your evidence. MR JAGGA That is correct, Chairperson. MR VISSER By means of introduction you, similar to Mr Jantjie on page 7B of the bundle, you referred to the fact that the victims in this matter had indeed been informers and that you were advised that under those circumstances you are obliged to disclose their identities. MR JAGGA That is correct, Chairperson. MR VISSER With regard to the other informers that you will refer to in your evidence, are you prepared to disclose their identities? MR JAGGA Not at all, Chairperson. MR VISSER And why is that? MR JAGGA Chairperson, because of the sensitivity of an informer, I feel that one may not disclose the identities. Many of these informers currently occupy high positions and so forth and the undertaking that we gave them back then was that we will not disclose their identities, so at this stage I am not prepared to do so. MR VISSER Very well. Is that also the practice at Police Services, not only in South Africa, but all over the world? MR JAGGA All over the world, that's correct Chairperson. MR VISSER In 1987, where were you stationed? MR JAGGA I was stationed at Security Branch Ladybrand. MR VISSER What division? The Security Branch, under the command of whom? MR JAGGA Capt Fouche. MR VISSER And who was your immediate Commander? MR JAGGA Lieut. Robertshaw. MR VISSER Will you please tell the Committee what you can recall about these incidents for which you apply. MR JAGGA Certainly, Chairperson. I think I should first inform the Committee, Chairperson, that our primary task, although I was in Security, the unit or section where I and W/O Jantjie worked, of which one could say I was the section leader, their primary responsibility was the collecting of information concerning the activities of the ANC, as well as MK in Lesotho, as well as other institutions that were then present in Lesotho, like BCM, PAC. MR LAX Would that be the so-called "Swart Mag"? MR JAGGA That's right, Sir. MR LAX Which by the way Mr Interpreter, means Black Power, as opposed to Black Force. INTERPRETER Thank you Chairperson. MR VISSER Please continue. MR JAGGA So the most important for us was to monitor the identities and movements of these people. Any information that was collected by us was not processed by us in any say but from us it was sent to, for example, Bloemfontein, Cape Town, Pretoria, or whichever places it was relevant to. MR VISSER And in what form was this information sent through? MR JAGGA It was sent through in processed intelligence report form. MR VISSER Those reports, do they still exist today, according to your knowledge? MR JAGGA None of them exist today, Chairperson. MR VISSER What happened to it? MR JAGGA All these things were destroyed. MR VISSER Can you recall when it was destroyed? MR JAGGA Unfortunately I cannot recall an exact date, Chairperson. MR VISSER But there is evidence before other Committees that instructions came from the top somewhere that all the records be destroyed in the South African Police' Security Branch. MR JAGGA Yes, that is correct, Chairperson. MR VISSER Please continue. In order to build up a legend for ourselves in Lesotho, my colleague Jantjie and I pretended that we were part of the underworld in Lesotho, and we found that under this legend we had access to basically any place in Lesotho, Chairperson. MR VISSER Very well. Which places did you usually visit? MR JAGGA Usually it would be bars, restaurants that were visited by these people, Chairperson. MR VISSER And what did you do at those bars? When you were there and activists were there, what did you usually do? MR JAGGA Chairperson, we spoke to the people around us. I mean, that is how it goes in such a place. We spoke to the person, speak to the person next to you, in front of you, behind you, buy them a drink sometimes and in this way the people became used to us, and later it was no longer strange for the people to find us in such places. MR VISSER Now you have a white skin, Mr Jagga, how did you see the situation that you could be seen as a white person, how did you deal with that? MR JAGGA Chairperson, up to date there are very few people in Lesotho that believe that I am white and most of the time I pretended that I was Lebanese and that I originated from Arabia somewhere and so forth. MR VISSER And did that make you acceptable to them? MR JAGGA "Geheel en al, Voorsitter". MR VISSER Very well. Can you please continue. MR LAX Sorry, can you just slow down a little bit, the Interpreter struggling to keep up. You were talking about being Lebanese and after that I think we more-or-less lost you. MR VISSER That you said you were from Arabian descent. I apologise, I was the one who were thinking you were going too slow. MR JAGGA And from then I was entirely accepted in the community and in these places, Chairperson. MR SIBANYONI I'm sorry, Mr Visser, to interpose. Were you always conversing in - which language? MR JAGGA I spoke in English, Chairperson. MR SIBANYONI Thank you. MR VISSER Please continue. MR JAGGA During our activities Jantjie and I, during approximately September or October of 1987, ... MR LAX You can go a little bit faster than that. MR JAGGA I beg your pardon, Chairperson. MR VISSER You say that you received information during September/October, from informants. MR LAX Sorry Mr Jagga, it doesn't help us if you read from the statement. MR JAGGA May I continue and where necessary just refer to the statement? MR LAX Ja. MR VISSER Where did this information come from? MR JAGGA From informers that we had already recruited, Chairperson. MR VISSER Now with regard to the informers, or all the informers that you had handled, did you handle them together, or what was the situation? MR JAGGA Chairperson, many of these informers were handled by myself and Jantjie together and he also had his informers and I had my own informers. MR VISSER So you did not necessarily always speak to a particular informers, would that be correct? MR JAGGA That is correct, Chairperson. MR VISSER And in September or October 1987 you heard about Betty Boom. MR JAGGA That's correct. MR VISSER What was the information that you received with regard to her? MR JAGGA That she was a trained MK member attached to the Free State Machinery, that had arrived in Lesotho and that two other persons, Nomasonto and Tax Sejanamane belonged to her, to that unit or served in the same cell. MR VISSER What was her position in that cell? MR JAGGA Initially the informer told us that it was quite clear that she was the leader or the chief of that cell. MR VISSER Very well. Did you have knowledge of what is now alleged that she had indeed the chief of the Free State Machinery? MR JAGGA That is correct, Chairperson. MR VISSER And when did you obtain that information? MR JAGGA During conversations with her. MR VISSER And it is also so that later you met the two members of her unit that you had referred to earlier on? MR JAGGA Yes, that is so. MR VISSER We will get back to them later. Now what was the further information, if any, that you received from the informer with regard to Betty Boom? MR JAGGA That Betty suffered financially, Chairperson, she suffered severely and she wanted to go back home. MR VISSER We have a problem, Mr Jagga, when you end a sentence and your voice goes on, then I think you will add something else, maybe you should just lower your voice when you are done, so I know that you are done. MR JAGGA I beg your pardon. MR VISSER What did you do or decide to do? MR JAGGA Chairperson, may I just add here that along with the two things, that she suffered severely financially and she wanted to go home, she was disillusioned with the ANC. MR VISSER Is this information that you received from your informer? MR JAGGA That is correct, Chairperson. MR VISSER What did you think then? MR JAGGA That it would be a golden opportunity to contact her and to see whether she could not be recruited as a possible informer. MR VISSER Did you discuss this issue with Robertshaw? MR JAGGA That is correct, Chairperson, I did. MR VISSER And did he then give you instructions? MR JAGGA He said we should continue. MR VISSER And did you do this? MR JAGGA Chairperson, my colleague, Jantjie, and I started observing Betty Boom's house, as well as her movements. MR VISSER What was the purpose of this? MR JAGGA To obtain some background of her, who visited her, what her movements were, whether she had a vehicle, does she use a taxi, which well known ANC activists visited her. MR VISSER Very well. And how long did this observation take place? MR JAGGA For approximately a month, Chairperson. I can mention here Chairperson, it may have been shorter or somewhat longer. But I think this was 13 years back, it is somewhat difficult to place everything, to attach a time to it. MR VISSER But you recall that is was more-or-less a month? MR JAGGA Yes, Chairperson. MR VISSER Did you each and every day, 24 hours of the day, monitor her or what is the position? MR JAGGA No, Chairperson, we did not monitor her for 24 hours a day. We, for example, would arrive early in the morning for a few hours, observe her, if she moved to town by taxi we would follow the taxi to wherever she got off the taxi. MR VISSER And did you see where she had meetings with her members? MR JAGGA That is correct, Chairperson, we did determine her routine. MR VISSER What happened then? MR JAGGA Chairperson, we went into all the records that were available at the office, background history. CHAIRPERSON If you say "we", who else studied those records? MR JAGGA Lieut. Robertshaw and I. MR VISSER Was there anything from those records which you can recall today that you did not mention in your application or in your evidence? MR JAGGA Unfortunately no, Chairperson. We then planned, Jantjie and I, that it was now time to contact her personally. MR VISSER Yes. MR JAGGA Whereupon which visited her at home, Chairperson. MR VISSER Mr Jantjie's evidence under cross-examination was that the first meeting with her took place in Maseru, does that concur with your memory? MR JAGGA No, our first true meeting with her was at her home, Chairperson. MR VISSER And what happened during that first meeting? If you can recall. MR JAGGA We introduced ourselves as an underground MK cell, members of an MK cell that operated in Maseru, Chairperson. MR VISSER Yes, did you mention names? Did you mention any names of yours to her? MR JAGGA I went under the name, Tony Montana. MR VISSER And did you also mention that name to her as your MK name? MR JAGGA That is correct, Chairperson. MR VISSER Can you recall what was the position with regard to Mr Jantjie? MR JAGGA Unfortunately I cannot recall what name he used. MR VISSER But did he use a name? MR JAGGA Yes, he would have. MR VISSER Mr Jantjie was asked under cross-examination whether she questioned you about where you came from and where you received training and so forth, what was the position with regard to that? MR JAGGA She did question us, Chairperson. But I mean because of the background that we had at that stage of MK activities in Lesotho, we ...(intervention) MR LAX Can I just interpose? You said: "because of the background which we had", that "we", does that include Mr Jantjie as well? MR JAGGA That's correct, Chairperson. MR LAX So the research that you did you shared with him no doubt? MR JAGGA Correct Chairperson, and it was also about practical experience, because we were in Maseru daily. MR VISSER You said because of that information ... MR JAGGA We could have a conversation with her and pretend to be MK members. MR VISSER Mr Jagga, on page 31 of the bundle the spouse of Nomasonto, indicated that Nomasonto and Betty Boom, in the vicinity of September - if I can just find it Chairperson, '87, were sent to Lesotho, or November/December, he says. He said that he was told that Nomasonto was in Lesotho since November/December 1987. MR JAGGA It was definitely before that, Chairperson. MR VISSER You say it was before that. But that would also mean, I would assume, that she was not someone, this is now Betty Boom and her people who had been there a long time, with regard to whom there was information over a long period of time available. MR JAGGA That's correct, Chairperson, it was clear that she was not familiar with the circumstances there. I can also just add there that what made it easier at that stage, was the political situation in Lesotho. The ANC at that stage was not really welcome in Lesotho, especially not trained MK members that could possibly bring in arms into Lesotho. And the fact here was that approximately in 1986, a coup took place in Lesotho and there was the military government, or there was military control in Lesotho. This military government, whether they were afraid of opposition or that their position would be taken from them, went on a large scale, went out and sent back ANC people on a large scale, from Lesotho to Zambia, Tanzania. Even young refugees who had just arrived and were seeking political asylum, were sent back from Lesotho. MR VISSER Mr Jagga, we know from history that in December, on the 19th of December 1985 there was a raid into Lesotho, are you familiar with the fact that such a raid had taken place? MR JAGGA That is correct, Chairperson. MR VISSER And there was evidence before other Amnesty Committees - Chairperson, I'm saying this for your edification in the Lesotho Raid matter, where it was made clear that the matter was discussed at a reasonably high level and that some of the Minutes of the State Security Council made reference to the problems, the diplomatic problems which raged at the time between the Republic of South Africa and Lesotho, during which time the then State President was in the midst of the arguments. And Mr Jagga, after this raid approximately 14 persons were killed - 9 persons were killed, and this was a raid by people from Vlakplaas. MR JAGGA That's correct, Chairperson. MR VISSER Was there then a coup as you had testified? MR JAGGA That is correct, Chairperson. MR VISSER And this new government that came to power, were they in favour of the South African Government or not? MR JAGGA They were in favour of the South African Government. MR VISSER And you say that they deported people. MR JAGGA That's correct. MR VISSER When did those deportations commence? MR JAGGA Immediately after the coup, within a day or two thereafter. MR VISSER So that was even when Mr Leboa Jonathan was in power in Lesotho? MR JAGGA That's correct, Chairperson. MR VISSER So you are saying that you had good co-operation from those people? MR JAGGA That's correct, Chairperson. MR VISSER What was the position with regard to the Lesotho Defence Force? MR JAGGA We also received good co-operation from them, Chairperson. May I just also add that at that stage there was even a Task Force that consisted of Police and Defence Force members. MR VISSER In South Africa? MR JAGGA In Lesotho itself. MR VISSER To do what? MR JAGGA To set up roadblocks and to launch operations with regard to criminals, as well as acting against MK members who were in Lesotho. MR VISSER What was the position with regard to their finances, the ANC finances in Lesotho? MR JAGGA Chairperson, most of the senior ANC members at that stage had already been deported back to Zambia, and it was a well known fact that there was no real structure to channel money into Lesotho, and to get it to the MKs on the ground in time. MR VISSER You were busy telling us that you decided that it was time to make contact and that you had indeed had made contact with her, this is now Betty Boom, at her home. MR JAGGA That is so, Chairperson. MR VISSER What was the conversation, what did you talk about? MR JAGGA First of all, Chairperson, after we introduced ourselves we indicated to her that we knew somehow that she was part of an underground MK cell and that we were there to give her possible assistance if she needed it. MR VISSER And how did she react to that suggestion? MR JAGGA She was very interested and specifically in what we could deliver, Chairperson. MR VISSER Any of the information that you received from the informer, did she confirm any of that information during that conversation or during subsequent conversations? MR JAGGA Specifically that she needed money. MR VISSER Yes, and what else? MR JAGGA And that she wanted to go home. MR VISSER On page 7D you said it was clear to you that she went hungry, what do you mean by that? MR JAGGA She told us that she did not have a enough money for food. MR VISSER Did you ever ask her with regard to amounts that she needed, or did you not discuss this? MR JAGGA We did not really discuss amounts, Chairperson, it would have placed us in a very difficult situation if, for example, she said she needed R2 000 or R1 000. MR VISSER Would you be able to give it to her, or would that place you in a difficult position? MR JAGGA Because of the fact that we could only draw a certain amount of money at the office, Chairperson. MR VISSER And how much was that? MR JAGGA That was R250. MR VISSER And this was with regard to persons who were not registered informers? MR JAGGA That is correct, Chairperson. MR VISSER What was the situation the moment a person becomes registered as an informer? MR JAGGA Then he starts working on productivity, Chairperson. MR VISSER And was there a scale of remuneration for certain information that was supplied? MR JAGGA Yes, there was a scale, Chairperson. What that was exactly I do not recall, but it depended on how well an informer did. If he did well he would get much money. MR LAX Mr Lax put it to Mr Jantjie, and we know that it is so from previous evidence that we have already heard, that for example, for the delivery I would say of an ANC person the remuneration was a determined amount, it was either R750 or R1 000, or whatever it was. MR JAGGA No, it was in the vicinity of R2 000. MR VISSER Okay, R2 000. And then for the delivery of an AK47 or the pointing out of an AK47, there was another amount? MR JAGGA That is correct, Chairperson. MR VISSER Now how many occasions did you speak to Betty Boom before you disclosed your true identity to her? MR JAGGA Several times, Chairperson. It is now difficult for me to give you the exact figure. MR VISSER Over what period approximately? MR JAGGA Approximately two to three weeks, Chairperson. MR VISSER Did you then come to a decision that she was recruitable? MR JAGGA That is correct, Chairperson. MR VISSER Did you realise at that stage, or did you determine at that stage whether she had a vehicle? MR JAGGA She did not have one, Chairperson. MR VISSER There was mention made here, there's some allegation that she had two houses and a BMW vehicle. What is your comment? MR JAGGA Chairperson, that she had two houses is very probable, because most of the MKs that were in Lesotho then definitely did not live in one place solely. MR VISSER Did they move around? MR JAGGA Yes, they moved around, Chairperson. MR VISSER For purposes of security? MR JAGGA That's correct, Chairperson. And if it is alleged that she had a BMW, Chairperson, we know that many of the ANC collaborators, if I can call them that, were Lesotho citizens and were favourable towards the ANC, supplied vehicles from time to time to the ANC members. MR VISSER So it was not necessarily that the person who drove the car owned the car? MR JAGGA That's correct, most of the time it was stolen vehicles anyway, Chairperson. MR VISSER Did you trace any stolen vehicles in Lesotho, or the police? MR JAGGA Yes, the police traced many vehicles, Chairperson. MR VISSER At some stage you decided that she was recruitable, did you then discuss this with her? MR JAGGA Chairperson, after Jantjie and I felt that the time was right we introduced ourselves to her and we told her that we're from the Security Branch. MR VISSER What was her reaction? MR JAGGA She couldn't believe it. MR VISSER Yes? MR JAGGA But I mean, we did convince her of this and then we once again started talking to her, after which she was indeed recruited. MR VISSER Did she have a telephone in her house that you can recall? MR JAGGA Not that I know of, Chairperson, but she supplied a neighbour's telephone number to us. MR VISSER Mr Jantjie said that when you called her, the person who answered said: "Call back later, in a little while". MR JAGGA That is correct, Chairperson, because the neighbour had to go and call her first and we would just call back. MR VISSER And did she understand what you wanted from her? MR JAGGA That's correct, Chairperson. MR VISSER And what do you think convinced her to cooperate with you? MR JAGGA I think the fact that, if I can put it in English, she was homesick. The struggle was not going anywhere according to her, especially in Lesotho, and then the money. MR VISSER Did you, during the course of your conversations with her, tell her about your knowledge about the activities of MK? MR JAGGA Yes, Chairperson. MR VISSER And what was her reaction to that? MR JAGGA She couldn't believe it, but later she realised that that was what we knew. MR VISSER And did she undertake to act as an informer for you? MR JAGGA That's correct, Chairperson. MR VISSER Did you explain to her that she had to be registered before she would receive a proper income or salary? MR JAGGA Yes, along with the fact that it was about productivity. MR VISSER And did you also tell her that in the meantime you will assist her with money? MR JAGGA That is true. MR VISSER And did you indeed assist her with money? MR JAGGA Yes, we did help her with money, Chairperson. MR VISSER And did she give information to you? MR JAGGA Yes, she gave valuable information to us, Chairperson. MR VISSER Over what period of time after she was recruited and before she was taken to Ladybrand? MR JAGGA Chairperson, it was not longer than 14 days, it was in-between a week, let us say 10 days. MR VISSER The information that she at that stage, this is now before she went to Ladybrand with you, the information that she supplied then, can you tell the Committee with regard to whom that information was, or with regard to what it was? MR JAGGA I do this with a very heavy heart, Chairperson, but I shall inform the Committee. The first information that she supplied to us was the telephone number of a public telephone in the Western Cape. MR VISSER What did she tell you about that public telephone? MR JAGGA That Tony Yengeni can be contacted at that number. MR VISSER And the course of 24 hours or what? MR JAGGA That's correct, Chairperson. And then the person who answered, you leave a message and then you will just call back later and then he will be there. MR VISSER Now this call box that you're referring to, was this a private telephone, or what is the position? MR JAGGA No, as I understood it, it was a public telephone. MR VISSER Was this telephone in a place where there was always someone that would hear it if it rang? MR JAGGA That's correct, Chairperson. MR VISSER And what happened then because of this information? MR JAGGA Information was in report form given through to the Western Cape, after which Mr Yengeni was arrested in the Western Cape. MR VISSER And what did the Security Branch realise with regard to operations in the Western Cape? MR JAGGA They collected enough information to bring the cell in the Western Cape to a stop. MR VISSER Any other persons that were arrested because of the information she supplied? MR JAGGA Chairperson, a trained MK member, Makanda, was also arrested in Bloemfontein. MR VISSER Were you involved in any of these arrests? MR JAGGA No, Chairperson. MR VISSER Did you receive feedback of these facts? MR JAGGA That's correct, Chairperson, because I mean this counted as productivity for the informer. MR VISSER And was she paid for this information? MR JAGGA Chairperson, because of all the administration with regard to such an informer, the money arrived after she was already gone. MR VISSER What happened to that money then? MR JAGGA We never received it at our office, neither myself or Mr Jantjie, and the person at Finances at our offices sent it back to Pretoria. MR VISSER Some developments happened then, what was the following development with regard to Betty Boom? MR JAGGA The same informer Chairperson, that placed us on her trail, told us that he's seen us with her a few times in places in Maseru and it may be possible that this knowledge could get to the rest of her cell, that she had contact with us. MR VISSER I apologise, I have now omitted to ask you this. Did you, after Betty Boom was recruited there at her home, did you have meetings with her in Maseru as well? MR JAGGA That's correct, Chairperson. MR VISSER Now with regard to what were those meetings about? MR JAGGA That was also with regard to the collection of information. MR VISSER Very well. And you received this information from this informer, what did you do then? MR JAGGA Chairperson, I can mention here that at that stage we had background about the two persons who were with her in her cell, and she did confirm this. MR LAX Sorry, I didn't hear your answer properly, would you just repeat. So what did you do about this information your informer gave you? Just repeat from there please. MR JAGGA We discussed it with Betty. MR VISSER And what was her reaction when you mentioned it to her? MR JAGGA She was surprised, Chairperson. MR VISSER Did she believe you? MR JAGGA She believed us and she even mentioned that she was afraid for something like that. MR VISSER Because of her meetings with you? MR JAGGA That's correct, Chairperson. MR VISSER What did you decide to do then? MR JAGGA We then agreed with her, Chairperson, that it would be safer for her if she accompanied us to Ladybrand. MR VISSER Safety, what do you mean? MR JAGGA In order to guarantee her personal safety. MR VISSER Who was the greatest to her personal safety if there was any suspicion? MR JAGGA Nomasonto and Tax. MR VISSER The other two members? MR JAGGA That's correct. MR VISSER There has been much made about the words that you decided that she should go along with you in an operation that would appear to be an abduction. Can you please place this abduction story in perspective for us, so that we can understand what it was about. MR JAGGA Chairperson, I think the whole thing that caused this confusion with regard to what an abduction should look like, it was not planned or attempted that there where she was picked up, that it should boil down to an abduction. This was part of the abduction was once again a built-in security measure. If we realised that her cell members knew that she was an informer, we through our channels and through the system of informers, would have sent it back that she had been abducted. But it was never necessary to do so. MR VISSER Very well. And was there also another purpose to take her out to Ladybrand? MR JAGGA Firstly, to sit down with her properly and all the other information during our meetings in Lesotho, to get that information from her, as well as to determine what her cell members were doing. MR VISSER To do what? MR JAGGA In order to recruit her cell members as well. MR VISSER And when you recruited her cell members, what then? MR JAGGA Then she as an informer would be safe. MR VISSER Chairperson, we've got a way to go, I see it's 4 o'clock, did you want to take the adjournment now or can we possibly continue for another half an hour? CHAIRPERSON We could continue for another half an hour. MR VISSER Thank you, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Thank you for alerting me to the time. MR VISSER Pardon? CHAIRPERSON I was oblivious to time, thank you. MR VISSER No, I was also, my attorney just told me that it's 4 o'clock. In other words, it was not like you wanted to pretend to the public or to anyone that she had been abducted, that would have been a cover story? MR JAGGA That's true, Chairperson. If we could secure her, then we would be able to control the Free State Machinery. MR VISSER And if you could not get the other two members out to Ladybrand, or get their heads turned, what would you have done then? MR JAGGA We would have looked after her, Chairperson. MR VISSER And you would have kept her in Ladybrand? MR JAGGA That's correct, Chairperson. MR VISSER Was this plan also discussed with Robertshaw? MR JAGGA That's correct, Chairperson. MR VISSER Did he give you the approval for it? MR JAGGA Yes, he did, Chairperson. MR VISSER Did you then have contact with Betty Boom, in order to make arrangements? MR JAGGA We had contact with her about this, Chairperson, and the planning was discussed with her, we did agree as to where, when and how it would be done. MR VISSER And who fetched her then? MR JAGGA I, Jantjie, Robertshaw and Thulo. MR VISSER And where did you find her? MR JAGGA Close to her home, Chairperson. MR VISSER Did she bring anything with her? MR JAGGA She had a suitcase with her. MR VISSER What was in the suitcase, do you know? MR JAGGA Clothing and more pamphlets and other things that she wanted to give us as proof. MR VISSER Do you now refer to revolutionary ...? MR JAGGA That is correct. MR LAX Revolutionary what? MR VISSER Pamphlets. MR JAGGA Literature, literature. CHAIRPERSON Pamphlets. MR LAX No, no, it's just the translation came through as: "and other revolutionary" and it didn't say what. MR VISSER Revolutionary literature. It's just a qualification because he only referred to literature in his evidence. What do you say you would have done if you arrived there and there were people who saw you picking her up, what would you have done then? MR JAGGA If it were MK members we would have definitely make it look like a proper abduction, we would have probably grabbed her and bundled her into the vehicle. MR VISSER Yes, and that was not necessary? MR JAGGA Not at all, Chairperson. MR VISSER You then went through the border post, as Mr Jantjie testified? MR JAGGA That's correct, Chairperson. MR VISSER Is it also your evidence with regard to how the people acted at the border post during that time? MR JAGGA That's correct, Chairperson. MR VISSER And that they were somewhat lax? MR JAGGA That's correct, Chairperson. MR VISSER You then went to the farmhouse in the Ladybrand district? MR JAGGA That's correct, Chairperson. MR VISSER You have also heard the direction that Mr Jantjie gave, it was 15 kilometres on the Clocolan road and then one would turn right, do you agree with that? MR JAGGA I basically agree with that, Chairperson. MR VISSER Did you have any personal knowledge of what the situation was with regard to this farm, whether it had been bought by the Security Branch, or whether it was rented by them, or whether it was State owned property? What was the situation? MR JAGGA Chairperson, it was a farm of which the homestead had been empty for some time and the owner gave it to the Security Branch of Ladybrand to use for a month or two. MR VISSER Was there a condition attached to it? MR JAGGA Yes, that if he said we should go out, we should leave because his son was going to move in there. MR VISSER Did you have to repair the house? MR JAGGA We just had to maintain in on the inside, Chairperson. MR VISSER And you say for a month or two? MR JAGGA That's correct, Chairperson. MR VISSER Which months would those have been? MR JAGGA Chairperson, I stand to be corrected but I think from November until the end of December we had the farm. MR VISSER You are certain, and now I am jumping around somewhat but just to join up with this, are you certain that you definitely took KK Ngono was taken to that farmhouse? MR JAGGA We did, Chairperson. MR VISSER And that would have had to happen during November or December? MR JAGGA That's correct, Chairperson. MR VISSER You then went to Ladybrand with Betty Boom, and what happened there at that farm? MR JAGGA Chairperson, we arrived and we sat down and we spoke to her, she gave us information and once again we started discussing the involvement of her other two cell members, and amongst the three of us it came out that it would actually be a brilliant plan if these other two members could also be recruited. MR VISSER Very well. I just want to interrupt you, during the time that Betty Boom was there on the farm with you was she handcuffed? MR JAGGA Not at all, Chairperson. MR VISSER Was she tied up or anything? MR JAGGA Not at all, Chairperson. MR VISSER Did she have the right to move around freely as she wished? MR JAGGA Yes. MR VISSER In the house? MR JAGGA Yes, in the house. Jantjie and I were also there, but it was not like we were guarding her or walked after her all the time. MR VISSER Like she was a detainee? MR JAGGA That's correct. MR VISSER Did she also sleep in the house? MR JAGGA Yes, she did, she slept with us in the house. MR VISSER Did you or anyone else that you are aware of or had seen - and I will just ask you this at one time, did you assault or torture any of these people, and now I am referring to Betty Boom and her two members and Ngono? MR JAGGA No, Chairperson, otherwise the recruitment procedure would not have worked, because Betty had already been recruited. MR VISSER What then happened with regard to Nomasonto? MR JAGGA It was agreed with Betty that Jantjie and Thulo will go and fetch Nomasonto. MR VISSER You did not accompany them? MR JAGGA No, I did not Chairperson, I stayed behind with Betty. MR VISSER And how would these two men convince Nomasonto to accompany them? MR JAGGA They would have told her that they had been sent by Betty and that she needed her. MR VISSER With regard to your own personal knowledge, did Nomasonto then arrive at the farm with Jantjie and Thulo? MR JAGGA Yes, Chairperson, she had a young baby with her. MR VISSER Can you we get the time period correct here, how long was this after you left Lesotho with Betty Boom for the farm? MR JAGGA I would say within two days. MR VISSER So you were on the point now where you wanted to discuss the child. Was it a male or a female child? MR JAGGA It was a boy, Chairperson. MR VISSER And the father said he was approximately 22 months old. MR JAGGA That's correct. MR VISSER What then happened to this young boy? MR JAGGA Chairperson, after we started talking to Nomasonto and Betty and she basically agreed to cooperate with us, it became clear that she had a problem with the maintenance of the child in Lesotho and she requested whether we could at least take the baby to her parents. MR VISSER Very well. This was just as you said now, after she was recruited? MR JAGGA That's correct, Chairperson. MR VISSER Did Betty Boom cooperate to convince her? MR JAGGA Yes, she did Chairperson. MR VISSER What would you say were the reasons why Nomasonto agreed? MR JAGGA Because of Betty's influence. MR VISSER Her influence? MR JAGGA That is correct, Chairperson. MR VISSER How did you know where to transport the boy to where Nomasonto wanted to send him? MR JAGGA Nomasonto gave us the address, I speak under correct here, but she supplied her parents' address to us and she also wrote a letter that had to go along with the boy. MR VISSER Can you recall what was written in that letter and in which language the letter was written? MR JAGGA I cannot recall, Chairperson. MR VISSER If we accept that it was written in a black language, would you be able to speak that language? MR JAGGA No, Chairperson. MR VISSER Would you have sent the letter without having it translated to you? MR JAGGA I would not have allowed it. MR VISSER Why not? MR JAGGA What would the purpose be of an operation if she wrote a letter and she said that she was with the Security Police and all those things? MR VISSER So from a security viewpoint ... MR JAGGA Yes. MR VISSER But you have already said this was 13 years ago, can you recall what was written in that letter exactly? MR JAGGA No, Chairperson. MR VISSER The reason why I ask you is because what you can recall from consultation was that she asked her parents to look after the child. MR JAGGA That is correct, Chairperson. MR VISSER But the father says that the letter also contained information with regard to the immunisation programme of the child, is that what was in there? MR JAGGA That is possible, Chairperson, and that would be logical that it would be so, Chairperson. MR VISSER So now you had Betty Boom and Nomasonto within two days there on the farm, and what happened then? MR JAGGA We started thinking about Tax, Chairperson, Tax Sejanamane. Betty then called him ...(intervention) MR VISSER Telephonically? MR JAGGA Yes, Chairperson. ... and informed him that persons will pick him up. She gave a description of the vehicle and told him where he should wait and the time. MR VISSER Were you present while she spoke to him? MR JAGGA Yes, I was present as well as Jantjie, Chairperson. MR VISSER And did you monitor what she was telling him? MR JAGGA That is correct, Chairperson. MR VISSER What language did she speak? MR JAGGA That I cannot recall, Chairperson. MR VISSER Were you told what Tax Sejanamane's attitude was? MR JAGGA She told me that Tax said yes, it was fine. MR VISSER What happened then? MR JAGGA Chairperson, I am not certain whether it was the same day or the following day that the meeting had to take place, then I, Jantjie, Thulo and Robertshaw went to Maseru. MR VISSER In paragraph 32 of page 7C, there's sentence that crept in there "We decided to pretend that there would be once again an abduction" That does not fit in here. We would ask you to strike that out, Chairperson, with my apologies. CHAIRPERSON Could you come again just for us. MR VISSER At paragraph 32, the first sentence. CHAIRPERSON To be deleted? MR VISSER Yes, Chairperson. I don't know how that landed there, but it doesn't follow in the context and it makes no sense. Did the four of you then go into Lesotho, into Maseru? MR JAGGA Yes, we went into Maseru, Chairperson. MR VISSER Where was the place that you were to have this rendezvous? MR JAGGA It was next to a road, Chairperson, I cannot recall entirely. MR VISSER In which place? MR JAGGA It was in Ditabaneng. MR VISSER And where did Betty Boom live? MR JAGGA She also lived in the same area, Chairperson. MR VISSER And were you ever told where Nomasonto lived? MR JAGGA No, I never asked. MR VISSER You now arrived at this place, did you have to wait for him or was he there, or what's the situation? MR JAGGA I do not believe - if we waited there, it couldn't have been longer than a minute or so, Chairperson, and he was there. I had the impression that he was already waiting for us there before he walked to the vehicle. MR VISSER What was his attitude when he saw you? MR JAGGA When he came to the vehicle, Chairperson, and he saw myself and Robertshaw in the vehicle, it was clear that he was shocked somewhat. MR VISSER What did you do then? MR JAGGA He and Jantjie started talking to each other, Chairperson, upon which the following moment he climbed into the vehicle. MR VISSER Jantjie testified that he told him that they were sent by Betty Boom to fetch him. MR JAGGA I would assume so, Chairperson. MR VISSER Would that make sense to you? MR JAGGA Yes. MR VISSER And now you went back to the farm, again through the border post? MR JAGGA That's correct, Chairperson. MR VISSER And at what stage did he realise that he was in the hands of the Security Police? MR JAGGA Chairperson, after he arrived at the farm along with us and we walked in where Betty and Nomasonto were, we actually informed him that we are from the Security Police and that type of thing. MR VISSER Very well. What was his reaction then? MR JAGGA He was once again shocked Chairperson, because he walked in with his eyes open into the arms of the Security Police, and there Betty and Nomasonto and us to a lesser extent, started speaking to him. MR VISSER Please continue. MR JAGGA Chairperson, at the end of the day he was also recruited as an informer. MR VISSER How long did this take? MR JAGGA Half a day, a day Chairperson. MR VISSER The same day or the next day? MR JAGGA That's correct, Chairperson. MR VISSER Can you recall at what time you collected him from Lesotho? MR JAGGA The only thing that I can recall, Chairperson, was that it was during the day. MR VISSER So you then succeeded in your objective of recruiting all three of them. MR JAGGA That's correct, Chairperson. MR VISSER During discussions you have now said that Mr Jantjie was present, who undertook the conversations on behalf of the police most of the time? MR JAGGA I did, Chairperson. MR VISSER And did Mr Thulo participate in any of these discussions? MR JAGGA Not at all, Chairperson. MR VISSER Did you then make arrangements with regard to contact and so forth? MR JAGGA That is correct, Chairperson. MR VISSER And what happened then? MR JAGGA We basically agreed that we would continue to see Betty alone. MR VISSER Would she be the contact person? MR JAGGA Yes, she would be the contact person. MR VISSER And where would that take place and how would it take place? MR JAGGA Once again in Maseru, Chairperson. We would take them back to Maseru. I don't know whether we mentioned it earlier, but after we were at Betty's house she gave her neighbour's telephone number to us and we gave our telephone numbers to her, so there was already that channel through which we could contact her. MR VISSER And was it the normal practice that if she wanted to supply information to you, would she give it to you telephonically, or would she make a telephonic appointment and then you would go and see her? MR JAGGA It would be a telephonic appointment that we would make and then we would go and see her. MR VISSER Who took them back? MR JAGGA Jantjie and I, Chairperson. MR VISSER And where did you drop them off? MR JAGGA At the Pitso Ground taxi rank. MR VISSER And was this during the day or at night? MR JAGGA This was during the day, Chairperson. MR VISSER Was anything given to them? MR JAGGA That's correct, Chairperson, I gave R250 to each one of them. MR VISSER And the whole issue with regard to the amounts and the registration as informers, was this discussed with Nomasonto and Tax and was it explained to them? MR JAGGA On the farm already, Chairperson. MR VISSER What was the following thing you did - oh, I beg your pardon, just to make it clear. From the time that you fetched Betty Boom from Lesotho up to the time that you placed the three people back in Lesotho, what was the time that had elapsed? MR JAGGA I wonder if it's a week, Chairperson. MR VISSER It would a week or less? MR JAGGA Yes, a week or less. MR VISSER What was the following thing that happened? MR JAGGA Chairperson, a day or so later we received information again ...(intervention) MR VISSER Was this from the same informer or another informer? MR JAGGA This was another informer, Chairperson. ... also about a trained MK member that was in Roma, someone by the name of KK. MR VISSER Is this now Mbulelo Ngono? MR JAGGA That's correct, Chairperson. MR VISSER And what information did you receive? MR JAGGA That he was in Roma and that he was visiting a friend close to the campus. MR VISSER Did you hear anything as to whether he was trained or not, or what was the situation? MR JAGGA He was also trained, Chairperson. I can also mention that when we received this information we already knew that he was trained. MR VISSER So you were aware of him before that? MR JAGGA That's correct, Chairperson. MR VISSER I shall ask you about that later in more detail. Did you also receive an address for him? MR JAGGA That is correct, Chairperson. MR VISSER What did you do then? MR JAGGA Chairperson, Jantjie and I discussed the issue with Robertshaw. MR VISSER Was Thulo present? MR JAGGA Yes, he was. MR VISSER And what was the conclusion of that conversation? MR JAGGA It was decided that Jantjie and Thulo would go to Roma, they would try to recruit this man and if it did not work, they would abduct him similar to what we did with Nomasonto and Tax, and take him to the farm. MR VISSER If the opportunity arose? MR JAGGA Yes, if the opportunity arose. MR VISSER So was that the instruction that Robertshaw gave? MR JAGGA That is correct, Chairperson. MR VISSER Before they left? MR JAGGA That's correct, Chairperson. MR VISSER What happened then? MR LAX Sorry, if I can just interpose here. You're going very quickly and you said: "Jantjie and I discussed the matter, Thulo was present", but was Robertshaw also present? MR JAGGA Yes. MR LAX Because I didn't hear you say Robertshaw at that point. MR VISSER No, I do apologise Chairperson. The question was: "Did you discuss it with Robertshaw and was Jantjie and Thulo also present", or something to that effect, but there were four of them. CHAIRPERSON They were four, that's how I understood it. MR VISSER Thank you, Chairperson. So you say - what happened then? As far as you know, Thulo and Jantjie came there to the farm with KK. MR JAGGA Yes, they came there with KK. MR VISSER What happened then? MR JAGGA Chairperson, Jantjie and I once again took over the whole situation and we spoke to KK. MR VISSER What did you talk about? MR JAGGA About his background, about who he was, about who we were and we started working in the direction of recruiting him. MR VISSER Did you tell him what you wanted to know from him? MR JAGGA That's correct, Chairperson. MR VISSER And what was his reaction to that? MR JAGGA He was not really surprised, but he was half surprised that we actually knew that he was in Roma at the university there. MR VISSER What do you mean when you say he was not surprised and he was surprised? MR JAGGA I beg your pardon, I have expressed myself incorrectly there, Chairperson. He was reasonably surprised that we knew where to find him in Roma. ...(transcriber's interpretation) MR VISSER Did you get the impression that he was surprised? MR JAGGA He thought that no-one knew that he went to Roma now and then. That's what I mean. MR VISSER You have said that you succeeded in convincing him to become an informer as well. MR JAGGA That's correct, Chairperson. MR VISSER Did you think it was a successful recruitment? MR JAGGA Yes, that is what we thought, Chairperson, but I mean, we were never one hundred percent convinced that he had turned entirely. MR VISSER How long did you have him in your possession, if I may state it as such? MR JAGGA No longer than a day, Chairperson. MR VISSER Was that short period also an aspect that caused uncertainty? MR JAGGA That's correct, Chairperson. MR VISSER Whether he was recruited? MR JAGGA Yes, Chairperson. During that short period we did not receive much information from him. MR VISSER I just wanted to ask you now, did he give you any information? MR JAGGA He did, Chairperson, but it was not really valuable information. MR VISSER Can you recall what that information was? MR JAGGA Unfortunately not, Chairperson. MR VISSER Were you aware that he had been arrested before by QwaQwa Police? MR JAGGA No, we did not know about that, Chairperson. MR VISSER Are you prepared to accept that he had been arrested various times by the QwaQwa Police? I beg your pardon, I should have said that he was arrested various times by the police. MR JAGGA That's possible, Chairperson. MR LAX ...(inaudible) MR VISSER It is the mother of Mr Sejanamane at page 38. She refers to him as Tex, but she later corrects herself to say Tax. MR LAX You're talking about Mr Ngono now. MR VISSER Ngono. MR LAX They're two different people. MR VISSER Oh yes, of course. I'm sorry I'm making a mistake. I am sorry. Thank you for correcting that, you're absolutely correct. So you had him there a day or possibly two? MR JAGGA It's possible. MR VISSER What did you do with him then? MR JAGGA In the same manner Jantjie and I took him back to Maseru and dropped him off at the Pitso Ground, Chairperson. MR VISSER During the day or during the night? MR JAGGA During the day, Chairperson. MR VISSER And did you ever heard from him again? MR JAGGA Never again, Chairperson, and we immediately assumed that the recruitment was not successful. MR VISSER Very well. Now with regard to KK, there were allegations from Mr Buthelezi that KK landed up in some roadblock, and the suggestion is that it was you, namely the Security Police, that stopped him and another person by the name of Mphilo and a person by the name of Radebe and attempted to shoot them dead. What happened there? MR JAGGA I know about that, Chairperson. MR VISSER Can you tell the Committee what happened there. MR JAGGA We were not involved there Chairperson, these people were on their way to Maseru from Mafikeng when they encountered a Police and Defence Force roadblock. They made the mistake of stopping and then the Police and Army personnel moved to them, a shooting ensued, one person was killed at the scene and Mphilo was wounded and KK ran away. Mphilo was thereafter taken to the Queen 2 Hospital in Maseru, where he was treated. Approximately one day later he in some strange manner was shot dead in his hospital bed. MR VISSER I beg your pardon, may I just ask you before you continue, what you are now telling the Committee is not your own knowledge? MR JAGGA No, Chairperson, this is not my own personal knowledge. MR VISSER Where did you obtain this information from? MR JAGGA From the Lesotho Police, Chairperson, after the incident. MR VISSER Who took Mphilo to the Queen 2 Hospital, according to your information? MR JAGGA The Lesotho Police, Chairperson. MR VISSER Do you know whether a docket was opened with regard to this incident in Lesotho? MR JAGGA Apparently there was an official investigation by the Lesotho authorities. MR VISSER Do you have any knowledge of what led to the fact that Mr Mphilo was shot dead in hospital? MR JAGGA No, Chairperson. I also do not know who did it. MR VISSER Was it not you? MR JAGGA It was definitely not I, Chairperson. MR VISSER Chairperson, I said Mr Buthelezi, but the reference is at page 57, it's Mr Mtunja that made reference to that issue. You said they made the mistake of stopping at the roadblock, what did you mean by that? MR JAGGA Usually one would drive up to the roadblock and then you would stop, Chairperson, but before they got to the roadblock they stopped. MR VISSER I see. And that is why you said that apparently they moved to them? MR JAGGA That is correct, Chairperson. MR VISSER And were you informed who shot there or what the situation was? MR JAGGA All that I know is that it was Lesotho police officers and those persons were trained MK persons and they found arms on their possession. MR SIBANYONI Can I just ask while I still remember. I think in one hearing, I can't remember the particulars, it was involved Mphilo ...(indistinct) who was shot while lying in the bed. The question I want to ask you is, you said you heard it from the Lesotho police. MR JAGGA That's correct, Chairperson. MR SIBANYONI Did you also hear that strangely enough he was placed next to a window in the hospital? MR JAGGA That's correct, Chairperson. Can I just explain here that strangely enough his bed was not right next to the window, his bed was some way from the window and for some or other reason during the day, I think he and the other patient went to theatre and when they came back they were not placed in the same beds, and that is where the incident took place then. MR SIBANYONI Thank you, I just wanted to find out whether it's the very same person you're talking about. MR VISSER Chairperson, it is now half-past, but I'm very close to the end. Could I perhaps go on another five minutes? CHAIRPERSON Ja, certainly, if you could cover his evidence-in-chief and probably tomorrow morning ... MR VISSER Most of it. I will stop the moment I reach a point where I can conclude sensibly, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Okay. MR VISSER Thank you. You have now already said that you have never heard from him again. MR JAGGA Never again, Chairperson. MR VISSER What - if we could go back to Betty Boom and her members, with regard to them, what happened to them? MR JAGGA Chairperson, Betty called us during the beginning of January of '88 and requested us to come and see her in Maseru. Jantjie and I then went and we went and saw her, whereupon she told us that she and the other two members were called back to Zambia. Jantjie and I told her that it would be better if they accompanied us back to South Africa, she may be known as an informer, but Betty felt that that was not the case and that she wanted to comply with the request. MR VISSER May I just ask you then to take a step backwards. Before this meeting with Betty in Lesotho, did you after you dropped her off at the taxi rank, contact her again before this meeting in which she gave you information? MR JAGGA Yes, Chairperson, we did. MR VISSER What was that information about? Can you recall? MR JAGGA I cannot recall now, Chairperson. MR VISSER Very well, it does not matter. But when you met her in January of 1988 - Chairperson, I neglected to say that in paragraph 42 at page 7I, the date must clearly be 1988, not 1989. I apologise for that typing error. It's the first sentence in paragraph 42, at page 7I. CHAIRPERSON Could you bear with me, Mr Visser. Which sentence there? MR VISSER The first sentence, Chairperson, the second-last word is 1989, it should read 1988. Thank you. Was Nomasonto and Tax present during this discussion that you had with Betty? MR JAGGA No, she was alone. MR VISSER And she indicated against your advice, yours and Jantjie's advice, that she would go to Lusaka? MR JAGGA That is correct, Chairperson. MR VISSER Did you have contact with her thereafter? MR JAGGA No, Chairperson. MR VISSER Mr Jagga, I wish to ask you to tell the Committee what do you think - you know what this thing looks like, there were four people that you had, on your own evidence fetched from Lesotho, brought them to South Africa, that you say that you took back to Lesotho and all four are missing? You know what this looks like, it looks like you possibly killed those people. MR JAGGA Yes, I know that's what it looks like. MR VISSER What do you say? MR JAGGA I deny that vehemently, Chairperson. MR VISSER Why should the Committee believe you when you say you deny it? MR JAGGA Chairperson, there was no reason why we would or had to kill these four persons. MR VISSER If I argue with you: yes, but is not so that what happened was that they refused to become informers and then you had to kill them? MR JAGGA Chairperson, if they refused to become informers we would have taken them back to Lesotho. MR VISSER And what would that have established? MR JAGGA We would have let information or rumours fly from our informers that they were indeed informers and then the ANC would have called them back to Zambia. Or, we would have reported them to the Lesotho Police, who would also would have arrested them and deported them. MR VISSER What do you say what are the possibilities of what happened to these people? MR JAGGA Chairperson, a few possibilities. The ANC could have found out that they were informers and then they had to go back to Zambia. Some of the underground people in Lesotho could have found out that they were informers, and we know what happened to people who acted as informers. Other intelligence organisations, Military Intelligence, they had people in Lesotho as well. MR VISSER Are you referring to Lesotho or South African Military Intelligence? MR JAGGA South African Military Intelligence. They could have found some of these people and what happened to them then I do not know, Chairperson. MR VISSER So you are saying that there are various possibilities? MR JAGGA Yes, there are various permutations. MR VISSER But your evidence with regard to this is positive that you did not kill them, not one of them? MR JAGGA That's correct, Chairperson, there was no reason. MR VISSER Chairperson, I've reached the stage where I can sensibly break and perhaps continue tomorrow and just complete it tomorrow. Thank you. I'm just about finished. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. We will adjourn for the day. Could we commence at nine in the morning, tomorrow the 13th of October 2000. Thank you. We are adjourned. COMMITTEE ADJOURNS