amntrans AMNESTY HEARINGS 2000-10-13 JOHANNESBURG 3 https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=54548&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/2000/201013jb.htm CHAIRPERSON ...saying that it would be desirable and highly desirable that a witness does not stay for over three weeks and then be cross-examined again. If we so decide that the cross-examination is going to be lengthy and we would not completed at one, let's make that indication now and relieve the witness and stay with this evidence-in-chief. I don't know how we are placed. This would actually come to you Mr Malindi and Mr Mapoma. We have something like just less than four hours to conduct cross-examination. I know some of the things we can't avoid, but could we just hone in on what we really want out of the witness? Could we do that? MR MALINDI Chairperson I don't intend to be long with the witness and I don't anticipate that my cross-examination will be lengthy and I can say we could easily finish by one o'clock. CHAIRPERSON Thank you Mr Malindi. I know that sometimes things do crop up but if we could just check on that. Mr Mapoma. MR MAPOMA Yes, Chairperson, I myself think as he does regarding cross-examination and the time. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. ANTONIE JAGGA (s.u.o.) CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Mr Visser. MR VISSER Thank you Chairperson. Good morning. Allow me to criticise you that you omitted to mention that it's also Friday the 13th. CHAIRPERSON Oh, is that superstition still holding? I don't know. I've seen buildings with the 13th floor, I thought ...(indistinct) MR LAX I hope you're not invoking Friday the 13th. MR VISSER No, no, but just as a matter of interest Chairperson, we noticed the other day with interest that there are no number 13 seats in an aircraft, I don't know whether you've noticed that. CHAIRPERSON I haven't. EXAMINATION BY MR VISSER (cont.) Mr Jagga, if we can just conclude your evidence-in-chief. There are just a few issues that I need to clear up with you. Mr Buthelezi, there is a document, some comment from a Mr Buthelezi in which he, on page 54 paragraph 11, refers to an incident where KK, Mr Ngono, on the 15th of March 1988, was handed over to the South African Police by the Lesotho police, do you know anything about that handing over? MR JAGGA No, Chairperson, KK was definitely not given to us at that date. MR VISSER Could it be that he was given to another division of the police that you don't know about? MR JAGGA Possibly, Chairperson. MR VISSER On page 51 there is also an allegation in paragraph 3 that the furniture of Betty Boom had been removed by means of a truck or trucks that look like South African Defence Force trucks. Do you know about this? MR JAGGA Absolutely nothing, Chairperson. MR VISSER Did you or any of your division in the Intelligence Division have anything to do with the removal of furniture from Betty Boom's house, or anybody else's house for that matter? MR JAGGA No, Chairperson. MR VISSER And then on page 37 and 50 of the record, reference is made to a photo that was taken of Tax Sejanamane after he was arrested by the Lesotho police. I'm sorry. I'm wrong again. It seems that it's KK, I'm terribly sorry. CHAIRPERSON Ja, it's KK not Tax. MR VISSER Sorry Chairperson, I made the same mistake yesterday. I do apologise. Of KK Ngono, which was taken after he was arrested by the Lesotho police and I would assume after he was handed over to you. Do you know anything about a photo that was taken of him? MR JAGGA No, Chairperson. MR VISSER You have already said that he was not assaulted or tortured while he was with you. MR JAGGA That's correct, Chairperson. MR VISSER You, in your evidence, when I asked you to speculate what you think could have happened to these four people and amongst others you said it is possible that the ANC came to know about the involvement with the Security Branch or from the supporters of the ANC in Lesotho heard about it and that they were either transported out of Lesotho or even killed. Do you recall that? MR JAGGA Yes, I do, Chairperson. MR VISSER What I would like to ask from you now is once again if you have to speculate, because we do not know what the facts are, if you had to speculate, how would the ANC have come to hear or have realised that there was a connection between those people and yourself? MR JAGGA Chairperson, a great possibility exists that there was a mole, somebody who gave information out of our office. That is only a speculation. MR VISSER And finally, Mr Jagga, there are various issues where your evidence differs from the evidence of Mr Jantjie. I am not going to go into each and every one of those points, but what do you say, what is the correct version, the one that Mr Jantjie gave in his evidence or the one that you give? MR JAGGA The one that I give, Chairperson. MR VISSER And what do you attribute that to? MR JAGGA First of all, this is an unknown procedure for Jantjie and he was confused, he said it himself. MR VISSER So you stick to the evidence that you have given? MR JAGGA Yes. MR VISSER And just one aspect, Mr Jantjie says that in Lesotho during this time, were you known as South African Policemen in general in Lesotho, is that correct? MR JAGGA No, not to each and every one, Chairperson. MR VISSER What would have happened if you were known to be policemen in Lesotho? MR JAGGA That would have limited our work to a great extent, Chairperson. MR VISSER You have already confirmed your statement, all three your statements. Do you just confirm with regard to your political motivation that you said on page 7 (j), without you having to repeat it? MR JAGGA That is correct, Chairperson. MR VISSER And you request amnesty for your participation in the events about which you gave evidence? MR JAGGA That is correct, Chairperson. MR VISSER Just with regard to that, it is clear from the evidence that the first three persons, Betty Boom, Nomasonto and Tax Sejanamane, were not physically abducted and Betty Boom, according to the evidence was never abducted and there was never any intention to abduct here? MR JAGGA That's correct, Chairperson. MR VISSER With regard to Nomasonto and Tax Sejanamane, was your evidence that they were taken to the farm, but under false pretences? MR JAGGA That is correct, Chairperson. MR VISSER And you were advised that it could be argued that this could boil down to an abduction? MR JAGGA That's correct. Chairperson. MR VISSER With regard to KK, on your evidence, he was abducted and you knew that it would happen? MR JAGGA Yes, Chairperson. MR VISSER And did you associate yourself with it? MR JAGGA Yes, Chairperson. MR VISSER And then finally on the farm itself, were they free to move around in the house? Oh you have already said so. MR JAGGA That's correct Chairperson. MR VISSER Was their liberty curbed in any other instances? MR JAGGA Yes, only to move around in the house for safety reasons, farm workers who were there on the farm, otherwise they were free to do as they pleased. MR VISSER Could they for example have walked away and have caught a taxi to Bloemfontein, or would you have not allowed them that? MR JAGGA No we wouldn't have allowed them to do that. MR VISSER So their freedom was limited? MR JAGGA Yes, it was. MR VISSER Thank you Chairperson. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VISSER CHAIRPERSON Thank you Mr Visser. MR SIBANYONI Mr Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Ja? MR SIBANYONI Can I just ask, on the farm, what is the name of the farm? MR JAGGA Chairperson, unfortunately I have forgotten the name of the farm but if it is a problem, I am prepared to take the Commission to where the farm is and to go and show them where the farm is. No one from the TRC has ever at any stage asked us, from the Investigative Officials,: "Show us the farm." MR SIBANYONI Who owns the farm? MR JAGGA ; It is a farmer. I stand to be correct Chairperson, it's a Mr du Toit, but whether he's still at the farm, or whether he still uses the farm or whether he has sold it, I do not know. MR SIBANYONI So it would appear there was just an arrangement between the police and the owner of the farm to use that farm? MR JAGGA Correct, Chairperson. MR SIBANYONI Thank you Mr Chairperson. MR VISSER Mr Chairperson, I did forget one last aspect, if you will allow me. I'm sorry. CHAIRPERSON Ja. FURTHER EXAMINATION BY MR VISSER What motor vehicle did you use in 1987 during this incident, Mr Jagga? MR JAGGA It was a Toyota 4 x 4 double cab, cream coloured with white hubcaps, a canopy of which the windows were tinted except the windscreen. MR VISSER And was it a 4 x 4? MR JAGGA Yes, that's correct, Chairperson. MR VISSER Any markings? MR JAGGA With red stripes in the centre from the front to the rear of the vehicle. MR VISSER The reason why I ask you is because there is an allegation that a white 4 x 4 vehicle was involved on the occasion when Mr Gadebe and Mpilo and KK were apparently shot at on the road and that's on page 59, paragraph 22, Chairperson. Were you or your vehicle involved in that incident? MR JAGGA No Chairperson. It is well-known that Lesotho police and army used 4 x 4's. MR VISSER Thank you Mr Chairman. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VISSER CHAIRPERSON Thank you Mr Visser. Mr Malindi, any cross-examination? MR MALINDI Thank you Chairperson. CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MALINDI Mr Jagga, you heard Mr Jantjie say he joined the Security Branch in 1977, do you agree with him? MR JAGGA He joined the Security Branch before I did, I only heard what he said. MR MALINDI But you can't dispute that he joined in 1977? MR JAGGA No, I have no grounds to doubt that, Chairperson. MR MALINDI And when you worked with him, you worked together as Intelligence Officers for the Security Branch? MR JAGGA Correct, Chairperson. MR MALINDI And the two of you in particular in this operation that's relevant to these hearings, were the two who worked with the potential recruits to turn them? MR JAGGA Correct, Chairperson. MR MALINDI In other words, the two of you were in this unit the main police officers who dealt with Intelligence on the side of Lesotho? MR JAGGA Correct, Chairperson. MR MALINDI And therefore, as a police officer of 10 years experience at the time, and an Intelligence Officer, he must be a reasonably intelligent person? MR JAGGA Correct, Chairperson. MR MALINDI As an Intelligence Officer, he therefore would have a good recollection of things that happened, even if not to the last detail? MR JAGGA Chairperson, I myself have trouble in recalling all the finer details of these incidents. We must take cognisance here that between myself and Jantjie we handled various and large number of informers in Lesotho who at the same level were in MK and the ANC like these four people. MR MALINDI In other words ...(intervention) MR LAX Sorry, may I just interpose? How many informers, are you able to estimate, did you actually handle in Lesotho? MR JAGGA Approximately 20 Chairperson. They were all not on the same level of course. MR LAX But it was twenty, or thereabouts? MR JAGGA We can say approximately. MR LAX With respect, that's a hell of a small number of informers to be handling. I would have expected you to be handling in the region of 50 to 100. MR JAGGA But now we have to consider, Chairperson, this was only with regard to MK and PAC activities, these twenty and these were high profile informers. With such an informer, you were sometimes busy for days just processing the reports. MR LAX But we've heard that you handled ordinary Lesotho citizens as well. MR JAGGA That is correct, Chairperson, yes, that is correct. MR LAX So they weren't all high profile. MR JAGGA No, some of them were not high profile informers. MR LAX Yes, what I'm just suggesting to you is that if you were handling only twenty informers, that's not a huge amount of information to be juggling all the time and that confuses you so much. MR JAGGA Chairperson, it's enough information to confuse one after all this time. MR LAX That's fair enough. CHAIRPERSON You may proceed, Mr Malindi. MR MALINDI Just to get clarity, were the twenty informers including the Lesotho citizen informers? MR JAGGA Correct, Chairperson. MR MALINDI And in other words, you agree that the information that you may have given in evidence, or in your statements, may not be as accurate as that. MR JAGGA No, I wouldn't say that, Chairperson, but that there was finer detail where one could not go in and recall it here, I will concede that. MR MALINDI And between yourself and Jantjie, there's potential for conflict between your versions? MR JAGGA That's correct, Chairperson, we should keep in mind that this was 13 to 15 years later, each person would interpret an incident in his own way and the time factor will make a difference. MR MALINDI And why should the Committee accept your version over that of Jantjie, who was also part of this operation, an experienced officer? MR JAGGA ; In my opinion, Jantjie made mistakes during his version, but when one reads the whole line from the top to the bottom, that is what the crux of the matter is and that is why I say I am here to clear up these things. MR MALINDI I realised in your application you refer to Jantjie's statement as containing the facts that you associate yourself with. MR JAGGA Correct, Chairperson, that was the written statement. MR MALINDI And at that time, around 1987, you say in your written statement that there were about 30 members of the ANC/MK in Lesotho. MR JAGGA Correct, Chairperson, those were members who regularly moved in and out. Here we should consider the deportation of members. As quickly as people were deported, some of them re-infiltrated, but we could say that we could work on a basis of approximately 30 persons or MK members that were in Lesotho at a given time, but it fluctuated from day to day and week to week. MR MALINDI It seems to me if you had a figure of about 30 ANC members and MK in Lesotho at a give time, with 20 informers, you were on top of the situation there, isn't it so? MR JAGGA Yes, we were up to date with all activities of MK in Lesotho, Chairperson. I would not say 100%, but to a very great extent. MR MALINDI And you, as Intelligence Officers, as being part of the Security Forces in South Africa your priority was to arrest as many as possible of those people and have them charged? MR JAGGA My work was in Lesotho, Chairperson and an arrest for me in Lesotho would have meant nothing to me, so that is correct. Arrests had to take place, but my section's work was the obtainment of information in Lesotho. MR MALINDI That information on about 30 members, could have been obtained easily from the 20 informers, without trying to recruit another 3 people from Betty Boom's cell, is it not so? MR JAGGA In the long run yes, Chairperson, but here was an opportunity to run a machinery from Security point, if the whole action had succeeded. MR MALINDI So if you knew of this unit of highly trained members of MK, your priority was not to pass on information so that they get arrested when they go out on operations, your priority was to recruit them as informers? MR JAGGA Correct, Chairperson. What was the use, if I can put it as such, of each and every time giving information, the operative is arrested, two or three other operatives remain behind to continue with the operation? Here we had the opportunity of gaining information about all the operations. MR MALINDI Let me move to another aspect. These three operatives, Betty Boom, Nomasonto Mashea and Tax Sejanamane were all removed from Lesotho in broad daylight. MR JAGGA Correct, Chairperson. MR MALINDI And when you had successfully recruited them, you returned them to Lesotho in broad daylight? MR JAGGA Correct, Chairperson. MR MALINDI And dropped them at a very public place, at a taxi rank. MR JAGGA That's correct, Chairperson. MR MALINDI This act was a self-defeating act if you were hoping to have put informers in Lesotho by recruiting them and making it public that they were working with you, is it not so? MR JAGGA No, Chairperson. MR MALINDI And you didn't suspect that some of their comrades would have seen you take them away, would have seen you bring them back? MR JAGGA No, Chairperson. MR MALINDI And do you agree with Jantjie's evidence that you had become familiar faces in Lesotho and from the border post into the places that you frequented, people knew you as South African Police? MR JAGGA No, I have to differ there, Chairperson. We were well-known faces, but a large part of our ...(indistinct) came into working here and up to today there are people in Lesotho who will tell you that we are part of the underworld and at the end of the day, if we told them that we were actually police officers, they will still have a problem with it, so we were well-known at the border post. MR LAX What do you mean, you were well-known at the border post? Well-known as policemen? MR JAGGA I would say on the South African side, yes, as policemen, but on the Lesotho side, not as police officers, but that we were well-known, that is correct. We must keep in mind here Chairperson that we daily used the border post and it is so, when one is friendly with someone else and you talk to them and things like that, that is something that security later becomes somewhat lax with regard to going through, if you use that border post regularly and you become familiar with the people. MR LAX What were you know to the border post as? MR JAGGA On the South African side? MR LAX I heard you talking about the Lesotho side. MR JAGGA We must keep in mind there that they also had Intelligence people there that would have known that we were police officers. MR LAX So surely, if some of the Intelligence people knew you were police officers and they facilitated your going through without checking, the rest of the border guards must have known that? MR JAGGA I shall concede that Chairperson. MR LAX So they couldn't have thought you were criminals? MR JAGGA Correct. MR LAX So your legend didn't work at the border post? MR JAGGA Amongst the Intelligence staff at the border post, it did not work. MR LAX Then if it was under the Intelligence staff, it must have been under everyone else as well, you've already conceded that. MR JAGGA Correct, but I must just once again inform you about the situation there. The Intelligence persons were separate from the Immigration Officials at the border post and at that stage there was no real interaction between those two departments at the border post. MR LAX So did the Immigration Officials think you were criminals as per your legend? MR JAGGA Some of them Chairperson, I will not say all of them. MR LAX You're suggesting to us then that these immigration officials, know that you were a criminal, but because you were friendly criminals, they would just let you thorough? MR JAGGA It still works like that today, Chairperson. MR LAX Is it not like that because they knew you were policemen and that's why they let you through? MR JAGGA No, Chairperson. It could be that they believed that we were police officers, I have to concede there, it could be and because of that ...(intervention) MR LAX Please Mr Jagga, it's highly improbable that any Immigration Officers are going to be letting criminals through, if they think the people are criminals. It's very probably that if they thing you're police they'll let you through, particularly if they know that you're co-operating with their Security Forces and there's that kind of relationship, then it makes perfect sense, but it certainly doesn't make sense if they think you're criminals. You'll concede that? It's plain logic. MR JAGGA Chairperson, but we are speculating here about what they thought. MR LAX You see, Mr Jagga was quite clear about this, he had no - sorry Mr Jantjie, humble apologies. Mr Jantjie was quite clear about this, he had no doubt in his mind that they knew you were police officers and that's why they let you through. MR JAGGA That may be so, Chairperson, and it could also be that I interpreted it incorrectly. MR MALINDI Thank you. And obviously your first excursion into Lesotho, you would have had to identify yourselves as police officers, is it not so, on the Lesotho side? MR JAGGA To whom? May I just ask, to whom? MR MALINDI To the Immigration Officers at the border post. MR JAGGA No, Chairperson, it was not necessary. MR MALINDI So from the outset, you just walked through the border without any form of identification? MR JAGGA May I just state it as follows for your convenience, that in between the border posts on the Lesotho border with the South African border posts, there exists a system where one gets a six month traffic concession in your passport. This is applicable to South African citizens as well as Lesotho citizens who, on a daily basis, travel to and fro between the two countries, so I assume as you have the six month concession, you only show it to the person at the gate. He just checks whether that is valid for six months and then you just continue on your way. MR LAX You see the problem with that is that nobody checked anything, on the evidence we've heard so far. You were never stopped, nobody looked at anything, you guys just drove straight through. MR JAGGA That is correct, Chairperson, that's correct. MR LAX So the concession doesn't come into it you see. MR JAGGA That's correct, but I am just answering the attorney's question there with regard to the fact that I had to identify myself at the border post, so I'm just trying to explain to him, because of this easy procedure that there existed, it is applied extremely ...(indistinct) and that is why we say they just let us through. MR LAX I think you're confusing two things here. The first is, he was talking about when you first went through, the first time you ever went into Lesotho, how did you identify yourself? MR JAGGA With my border traffic concession and I never introduced myself to them as a police officer. MR LAX How did you arrange your border traffic concession? MR JAGGA Through Police Head Office. MR LAX That says a lot doesn't it? MR JAGGA Correct, Chairperson. MR MALINDI Mr Jagga, what I'd like to suggest to you is that this very public and open abduction of these three persons was done in that manner, because you and your unit in Ladybrand knew that you were never going to go back into Lesotho. MR JAGGA That is not so, Chairperson. MR MALINDI And you were not worried about their safety and their comrades or the ANC knowing that they were informers, because it was never your intention to send them back again. MR JAGGA No, Chairperson. MR MALINDI As an Intelligence officer, you recruit three members of the MK, one of them being a Regional Commander of an MK structure, how did you know that they were genuine and honest with you when they said they'll become informers? MR JAGGA There we depended on their actions, Chairperson, but I must concede that one would probably not know for sure that such a person would be 100% loyal. MR MALINDI Because they could have agreed to co-operate with you in order to save themselves, so that you could send them back to Lesotho to regain their freedom. MR JAGGA Correct, Chairperson, that is a possibility. MR MALINDI And if they got back to Lesotho, they could have informed their higher organs of the existence of this farm in Ladybrand. MR JAGGA That is also possible, Chairperson. MR MALINDI And as a high-ranking Intelligence Officer or Officers, after being with these people for one week, you trusted them to be true informers? MR JAGGA Correct. MR LAX On a point of correction. You weren't with them for a week, you were with Betty Boom for a week, but the others you were with on lesser periods ...(indistinct - speaking simultaneously) MR JAGGA That is correct, Chairperson. MR MALINDI Thank you. And would you agree that this conduct is surprising, or would be surprising to many people on the part of Intelligence Officers? MR JAGGA That is also correct, Chairperson, but many times the simplest plan works the best. MR MALINDI Again I would like to suggest to you that this is improbable and the only reason you are putting up this version, is because it never happened that way. MR JAGGA I have no reason to come and place a fabrication before the Committee, Chairperson. MR MALINDI Betty Boom's unit was operating in the Free State, is that the information you had? MR JAGGA This unit had not been established completely, Chairperson. Before her arrival in Lesotho, the Free State Machinery had ground to a halt basically and she was there for a short period that she did not get the machinery going and under her control properly. MR MALINDI And in other words, as far as you knew, they had not committed any offences in the Free State which was their region? MR JAGGA Is this the machinery, Chairperson, I beg your pardon, or the three persons that we are referring to here? MR MALINDI The three persons, the unit. MR JAGGA That's correct, Chairperson, according to my knowledge they were not involved yet. MR MALINDI You stated that Betty Boom gave you information about what happened in other regions like the Western Cape. MR JAGGA Correct, Chairperson. MR MALINDI Through your Intelligence work, were you aware that MK units did not know of operational details of other units? MR JAGGA In most cases that was so, Chairperson. MR MALINDI And it was so with all units of MK that although there may be co-operation from the country in which they were operating, they did not know of each other's operational details in the regions where they operated in South Africa. MR JAGGA In many cases that was the case, Chairperson. MR MALINDI What I would like to put to you is that that being the style of work, of MK structures, Betty Boom would not have been able to give you details about operations in other regions. MR JAGGA Chairperson, whoever had the particulars, I would not know, but she did convey the information that led to the arrests in Western Cape. MR LAX May I just interpose? Besides Betty Boom, what other instance do you know of, from your own personal experience, where members of one set of machinery, or one unit, knew of the activities of someone in another machinery or another unit? MR JAGGA In Lesotho it did happen, Chairperson, specifically during this time. When the top structure was taken out, some of the people of the various machineries that remained behind, had to take hands in order to continue. MR LAX So they obviously severely compromised their whole security arrangement by this? MR JAGGA Correct, Chairperson. MR LAX And what activities did you become aware of, as a result of this? MR JAGGA This...(intervention) MR LAX I'm not interested in what risk it held, I want you to give me specifics. What operations did you become aware of? MR JAGGA With regard to specifically KK, he and Mpilo, their machinery definitely liaised with the Free State machinery people. What information exactly with regard to that was relevant to South Africa, I do not know, Chairperson. MR LAX But you see, with the greatest of respect, this is information you've read in the papers now, okay, this is not information that you can give me detail of operations about, with the greatest of respect. MR JAGGA No, Chairperson. MR LAX Why is that the only ...(indistinct) you can refer to? MR JAGGA This is what I can suddenly think of Chairperson. This happened 15 years ago. I think if we sit a day or three, then I will think of more. MR LAX You see, I'm very interested in this aspect. Nowhere in your papers do you talk about the Free State machinery, do you talk about the Western Cape machinery, nowhere in your papers do you talk about the details of who was arrested where, when and how. You don't say that Betty Boom was the Commander of the Free State machinery. Why is that? MR JAGGA I don't know Chairperson, that was a submission that we could give to the Commission and I think at this stage, I am being honest, that is why the Panel has an opportunity here to question me about things that happened in the past. That is how I see it, with respect, Chairperson. MR LAX You see I'd like to suggest to you this, that if you had recruited someone who was head of the machinery, it would have been a major coup for you, not so? MR JAGGA It would have been, Chairperson. MR LAX And therefore that would have been something you would have put in the papers, because it was such an important coup, not so? MR JAGGA It's possible Chairperson. MR LAX Not only is it possible, it's highly significant. Do you agree? MR JAGGA I agree, yes, Chairperson. MR LAX Well then, you can't explain why it isn't there. MR JAGGA I cannot explain to you. MR MALINDI Thank you Sir. What I would like to suggest to you is that the four of your came together to work out a version to explain away that disappearance of these four victims, between you and Mr Jantjie, it is clear that you remember these incidents differently and the reason is that it is a made-up story, it is a fabricated story, it's not a true story. What do you say to that? MR JAGGA Once again, Chairperson, why would we fabricate a story to the Truth and Reconciliation Commission? Let us suppose that we killed the people, then it would have been easy for us to come here before the Commission and explain in detail what happened exactly and I believe then we would have been finished with this Hearing, so we had no reason to fabricate stories. The law grants us the opportunity on this Commission to apply for amnesty. If we had murdered them, then we would have applied for murder, Chairperson. MR LAX Before you go on, Aboo, there's something wrong with your microphone, it's cutting off some of the time, I'm just worried that the transcript may not be correct. Would you just keep an eye on it please Cecil and if it's a problem, Cecil, will you just alert us to it, from the taping point of view, just keep aware of him speaking. Thanks. Please continue. Sorry. MR MALINDI Thank you. Well there could be a reason, you see, like the informers, that you don't want to disclose their names because they now hold high positions, it would be damaging to their image and maybe to their careers, maybe that's the same reason you won't feel comfortable disclosing that you eliminated these four. MR JAGGA Chairperson, I think those are two different cases. How can my truth with what happened to those people endanger my former informers? I do not have to protect their positions, I just have to protect their names. MR MALINDI No, by protecting their names, you protect their positions. If they are holding high positions and you give their names, they may be in positions where it's unacceptable for them to hold those positions if they had betrayed the struggle before. MR JAGGA Chairperson, it's about the service that they rendered to us as informers and in reality, what is expected of us to protect those people. MR LAX Mr Jagga, the question was put to you on this basis, that in the same way you are protecting their lives and their careers, you're protecting yourself by not telling the truth. That's what he's saying to you. In other words it's easy to come and apply for amnesty for abducting somebody. It's much more difficult to come here and admit to murder, that's what he's saying to you. MR JAGGA Chairperson, we did not murder those people and I stick to my point, that we would have applied for amnesty for murder and even if it was gruesome and horrible, I believe that there would have been less cross-examination and trouble than what we are experiencing presently to come and tell the real story. CHAIRPERSON The import of the question is that if you had come forward and said: "We murdered these four" and part of the people who provided you with the information are today holding high positions within the country, their positions would be jeopardised as well, that's the import of the question. That's the import of the question put to you. MR JAGGA I don't know Chairperson, I cannot think that our application would be a risk to their positions because we would have still protected their names. MR LAX Are you saying that it wouldn't make any difference to you, it wouldn't be any less easy to come here and admit to murder, than it would to come here and admit to abduction? MR JAGGA Chairperson, it could be more difficult and then to look the family in the eye, but I think, as I understand it from my legal representative, that is why the Truth and Reconciliation Commission was established, it was to convey these things and to apply for amnesty. Even if it was how difficult, we would have done so. MR LAX No that I understand, but it's certainly not easy to come here and admit to murder, which is what you are saying. MR JAGGA It would not be easy Chairperson, but today it's not easy to be here Chairperson. MR LAX I understand that. The other thing was, if you had to admit to murder, it's not just those people you'd have to face, it's the whole nation you'd have to face. MR JAGGA That is also correct. MR LAX It's the families you'd have to face. MR JAGGA That's correct, Chairperson. MR MALINDI These informers who are now holding high positions, what positions are they holding? CHAIRPERSON Wouldn't that come with their identities? MR VISSER How is it relevant, Chairperson, to the merits of the application? MR MALINDI Not necessarily so, Chairperson. The witness can give some information. If the witness says one of them is a member of Parliament, there are more than 350 of them, it doesn't identify the person, but it will be helpful to get an indication what kind of people these witnesses are trying to protect, because ... CHAIRPERSON Are you suggesting just in general? MR MALINDI Just in general. CHAIRPERSON Okay, I'll allow that. MR JAGGA I am only prepared to say that they are State officials, Chairperson. MR MALINDI As public representatives or as bureaucrats? MR JAGGA State officials. MR MALINDI Chairperson, may I ask the Committee to help me with the description of State officials. I'm not sure between a public representative and a bureaucrat, like Director-General, or Chief Director? CHAIRPERSON Mr Jagga, these State officials, would they be for certain departments of Government or let's put it this way, say no for example ... MR JAGGA Chairperson, I can only say that it is Departments of the State or the Government, I do not want to elaborate on this Chairperson, I see this as part of the identity of an informer and I apologise. CHAIRPERSON In essence they are employed by the Government in various departments. MR MALINDI Thank you Chairperson. MR LAX By implication you're saying they are not representatives, in other words they're not elected officials, they are employees of the State. MR JAGGA That's correct, Chairperson. MR LAX That's what he was asking you. MR JAGGA I beg your pardon Chairperson. MR MALINDI I'd like to suggest to you that this cover of not disclosing informers, is just another way of trying to legitimise what you did by saying you were told by informers whom you say you can't disclose and therefore giving yourself a broader scope not to give full disclosure in this hearing. MR JAGGA No, Chairperson, I differ. MR MALINDI It is very easy to say: "An informer told me" and cross-examination stops there and you can't disclose the informer. We don't know how important the informer is, we don't know whether, as legal representatives we can argue that in the public interest those informers should be disclosed because you are not prepared to give us any detail. MR JAGGA That's correct Chairperson, that may come through like that, but I feel from my side that the identity of the informers has nothing to do with my application, the facts on the table. That's how I see it. I apologise Chairperson. MR MALINDI Well it is a lot because if you give us a name and that person says: "I was never an informer", then it will expose you as not having told the truth. MR JAGGA No, Chairperson, it's about a greater reason than such an easy one. MR LAX But what he's arguing to you is this, that how can anyone test the source of your information without disclosing, that's what he's arguing. MR JAGGA I understand Chairperson. MR LAX MR JAGGA Thank you Chairperson. MR VISSER Chairperson, perhaps one should pay a little attention to the issue of relevance. Is it the argument of Mr Malindi that Betty Boom was not an MK member, that she did not have two members in her cell called Nomasonto and Tax, because that's what the informers told them. Now is that in issue? I didn't understand that to be in dispute. Perhaps Mr Malindi should tell us Chairperson what is in dispute of what we say the informers told us before we come to this whole issue of who they are and what the relevance of their cross-examination would be. CHAIRPERSON Mr Malindi. MR MALINDI Chairperson, our submission will be at the end, that Betty Boom's unit was abducted from Lesotho and taken to Ladybrand and they were never heard of thereafter. We don't dispute that they were MK members, but the witness is taking cover behind informers which is something that we can't probe any further because he says he can't disclose their identity. I was just trying to explore the possibility of arguing at the end that we have been hampered by an old trick of the Security Police of hiding behind the cover of informers. CHAIRPERSON That's what I understood. Yes, that's what I understood, Mr Visser. MR VISSER Chairperson, yes, I'm just trying to point out that we're dealing with something which is irrelevant here and which is in fact conceded as to what the informers, according to these witnesses, say they were told. CHAIRPERSON No, but if I listen to his line of cross-examination, he says: "Yes, you may have been told by informers and you abducted these people and why you can't speak of these informers is because it is not like you say you took them back to Lesotho, they never came back" and this would greatly hamper that because they're now placed highly within State Departments, that's his import, if I'm following him, I may be wrong, I don't know. MR VISSER Yes, but Chairperson, my simple point is this, that after they were taken back, the informers never played a role. The informers never said that they were or were not there. MR LAX So far the evidence, not of this witness or by implication of this witness, has been that they didn't bother to find out from their informers what happened. MR VISSER That was Mr Jantjie. MR LAX Yes. MR VISSER That was not this witness, Chairperson. MR LAX He hasn't said he took any steps yet. MR VISSER Yes, he hasn't been cross-examined about that. MR LAX No, no, but he wasn't even led on that. MR VISSER Well, perhaps that's my mistake but the fact is still Chairperson, that the informer didn't play a role after they were taken back, but anyway I'm not objecting, I'm just pointing out. CHAIRPERSON No, no, actually the correct position would be, if I understand you correctly, is that when they were abducted the informers never played a role. MR VISSER That's the point. CHAIRPERSON And that's the end of where the informers come in. MR VISSER The relevance of the informers in this case, yes, Chairperson. MR LAX That's your version anyway. I don't know if that's Mr Mapoma's version. Sorry, Mr Malindi's version, I beg your pardon. CHAIRPERSON No, no, we can find out from him. MR VISSER We'll hear whether there's another version. CHAIRPERSON Let's just leave it for the moment and see where it goes. MR MALINDI As the Court pleases. MR VISSER As it pleases you, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. MR MALINDI Before making contact with Betty Boom, did you have knowledge of Tax Sejanamane and Nomasonto Mashea? MR JAGGA Only of Tax Sejanamane, Chairperson and then we found out about Betty Boom and then about Nomasonto in that sequence. MR LAX Sorry Mr Malindi, just repeat the question for my benefit, I didn't hear it properly. I heard the answer, but I didn't hear the question 100%. Sorry, just repeat it for my benefit please. MR MALINDI As the Court pleases. At the - I won't be precise with my question as I stated it before, but the ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON The answer he got already, just the facts of the question. MR MAPOMA I can still remember the question was before making contact with Betty Boom, did he know of Tax as well as Nomasonto. MR MALINDI And could you please repeat the sequence of when you knew each of them because there was a break in my translation. MR JAGGA We first found out about Tax, then about Betty Boom and then about Nomasonto. MR MALINDI Mr Jantjie testified that you only knew about both Nomasonto and Tax after you had taken Betty Boom to Ladybrand. MR JAGGA Yes, he did testify that, but it is as I have explained it to you now. MR MALINDI So the Committee must prefer your account on this over that of Jantjie. MR JAGGA I am not saying that, Chairperson, I'm only saying what I am saying. MR MALINDI When you first spoke to Betty face to face, according to you it was in her flat. MR JAGGA Correct, Chairperson. MR MALINDI And according to Jantjie it was at the OK building at the place provided for seating and eating, or something like that. MR JAGGA That is what Jantjie said, yes Chairperson. MR MALINDI And when you spoke to Betty Boom, this senior ranking MK member, did she simply accept that you were also MK members? MR JAGGA Yes, Chairperson. After a while she did. MR MALINDI And according to one of the affidavits we have here, she and Mpilo were actually looking after the MK structure in Lesotho, looking after their financial needs and so on. MR JAGGA That's correct, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON May I interpose here because I was looking for this and then I found it. On 7(c) in regard to the sequence you spoke of, I was looking for that because I read it and I just couldn't find where it was, but I found it. "10. During our work, Jantjie and I, during September or October of 1987, came to hear about Betty Boom. Our information from informers was that she was a leader of an MK cell in Lesotho who had planned acts of terror in the RSA and that her cell consisted of approximately three persons. We later met two members of her cell, Nomasonto Mashea and Tax Sejanamane." As I read it, it would appear that this does not concur with how you say what the sequence was. MR JAGGA Chairperson, I think here the words "met them", this is when we personally met them, that is how I see it where the difference is, that we knew about them and met them. CHAIRPERSON Did you know when Betty Boom arrived in Lesotho? MR JAGGA No, Chairperson, not the exact time. CHAIRPERSON Because someone, I think it's Buthelezi, said that Betty Boom arrived in Lesotho at approximately this time. I think it was Buthelezi, if I am not incorrect. Page 53, the first paragraph "My first comment is that Jantjie does not specify which date in 1987 because Betty left Lusaka between August and early September." MR JAGGA I can agree with him, Chairperson, because it was in September/October. CHAIRPERSON You may proceed Mr Malindi. I just wanted to clear that up because I didn't want to ...(indistinct) I'm sorry about that. MR MALINDI Thank you Chairperson. What I would suggest to you is that this story of how you introduced yourself to Betty and how she embraced you, is improbable, because firstly she was a high ranking officer in MK, she was working in collaboration with other regional machineries. MK was under threat in Lesotho, that was immediately after the coup, the military leader thereafter was not sympathetic to the ANC or its Military Wing and in some instances, members of the ANC who were not deported or were still found in Lesotho after that date, were being handed over to the South African Police by the Military Government. MK people had to be extra vigilant at that time and yet being a person who was one of the persons in control of the MK structure in Lesotho, meets two strangers, yourself and Jantjie and accepts you as MK members, how's that? MR JAGGA That is what happened, Chairperson. I wonder many times about that, but that is what happened. CHAIRPERSON If in August, September or October they arrived in Lesotho, how would they have complained about money, because there was not enough time to receive money from Lusaka? MR JAGGA I don't know Chairperson, but she did complain, that's a fact. MR LAX How many Lebanese members of MK were there that you might have ever heard of? MR JAGGA I don't know. MR LAX Well I don't know of very many either. In fact I know of very few white members of MK and in those days, Lebanese certainly wouldn't have been regarded as non-white, you'll concede that. MR JAGGA I see that, but it worked, Chairperson. Many times the simplest thing works easiest. MR LAX Carry on Mr Malindi. MR MALINDI Thank you. In fact, according to your own observation of her flat, not even her own unit members, Nomasonto and Tax ever visited her flat in the one month that you were observing it, is that not so? MR JAGGA Correct and I have to add that this was during the time that we held our observations. They could have looked for the place after we were there or before we were there, but while we were undertaking observation not. MR MALINDI She chose a flat, according to Jantjie, which had a six foot high fence, a very strong security gate, it indicates, it shows a person who was very vigilant in Lesotho under the circumstances, is it not so? MR JAGGA Correct, Chairperson. MR MALINDI And what I propose is that Betty did not embrace you as you say, but she was abducted. MR JAGGA No, Chairperson, what I and Jantjie said, that's how it happened. MR MALINDI And according to Buthelezi on page 53 of the bundle at paragraph 3, she was responsible for the financial needs of MK structures in Lesotho, in particular her own structure. She stayed in a flat which was not a cheap flat, according to the documents here and that ...(intervention) MR VISSER Sorry, where is my Learned Friend referring to, Chairperson? I don't recognise that evidence in the bundle. MR LAX What evidence? The cheap flat? MR VISSER That the flat wasn't cheap. CHAIRPERSON No, no there's nothing ...(indistinct), we just know it's a flat. Mr Malindi, I think let's just - I say I don't know, somewhere in the body...(intervention) MR LAX It is there, no it's very clear. MR JAGGA Paragraph 2. MR LAX It says an expensive flat. CHAIRPERSON Oh, paragraph 2. MR LAX She rented an expensive flat, according to our standards. CHAIRPERSON Yes, there is that. MR VISSER Thank you Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON You may proceed. We are sorry about that, I was just looking at paragraph 3. MR MALINDI Thank you Chairperson. And again at paragraph 2 that she owned or used a BMW vehicle. What I'm suggesting to you is that a person in that position would not have told your informers or you that she was struggling financially, she was almost starving and so on. She was in a reasonably good position financially. MR JAGGA Chairperson that is the information as we received it. MR LAX Just while we're on the question of funds, you said in your evidence-in-chief that you didn't know where the funds came from and you felt that the ANC was having difficulty with funds at that time, that was your information. MR JAGGA That's correct. MR LAX Well, Buthelezi says here, the funds came from ...(indistinct) MR JAGGA That is also correct. SIDA, as well as United Nations, I cannot recall the full names ...(indistinct - speaking simultaneously) That is correct, Chairperson, but what happened at a stage after the coup, was that some of these funds only arrived two or three months afterwards and went out to the people, it was not on date and on time. MR LAX Do you know what SIDA is? MR JAGGA The Swedish International ... MR LAX Development Aid. MR JAGGA That's right, Sir. MR LAX The Lesotho Government wouldn't have controlled the Swedes. They weren't involved in this matter. MR JAGGA That's correct, Chairperson, but because of the fact of the people who were deported, there was a problem ...(intervention) MR LAX Sorry, we're having a problem, I certainly am missing ... CHAIRPERSON Ja, I don't know whether, it's mine as well, because it keeps on cutting. MR LAX I think its something to do with that mike. That's much better. CHAIRPERSON I see you have changed yours Mr Malindi, is it much better now? MR MALINDI It is much better Chairperson, thank you. MR LAX Okay, let's try again. We were talking about SIDA. You were saying that the problem with SIDA, the problem with the funds was that people had been deported and there was confusion in the ranks, that's what I understand you to be saying. MR JAGGA Yes, the structures were broken up between SIDA and the MK underground structures. The line through which the money ran, in other words, Chairperson. MR LAX Well then how do you deal with what Buthelezi says here, which is that she had all the lists of all the people and in fact when she disappeared, that's when the problem started. MR JAGGA I can concede that it could be that it is as he says it here, but there was a backlog, Chairperson, that is what I'm trying to tell you. A vacuum had been created and then there was time to catch up. MR LAX That's your speculation, you don't have any knowledge of it. MR JAGGA Yes, that is speculation. Thank you. MR LAX And against your speculation, we have Buthelezi's positive statement that says the opposite. MR VISSER Well with respect Chairperson, ... MR LAX No, no, no, hang on, I fully understand that it's not evidence before us. MR VISSER Not only that, but all that he says is that she dealt with the money, he didn't say that she got the money. That's not here. CHAIRPERSON That's quite right. MR LAX Fair enough, but Buthelezi's inference is that there weren't difficulties and your inference and your speculation is that there were difficulties. MR JAGGA That's correct, Chairperson and while we are on that point with regard to Buthelezi and Betty and Mpilo, Mpilo was murdered in hospital during December, so he did not bring that into account with regard to the money, because he was murdered in the hospital. MR LAX Yes, but the period you're talking about isn't December. You're talking about a period in September, October. MR JAGGA Yes, I'm sorry Chairperson, I concede that. MR LAX Please carry on. CHAIRPERSON Before you do, Mr Malindi, allow me to just ask this question. Because you conducted a surveillance where Betty Boom lived, what kind of flats were those, because we hear that these were expensive flats. What did you see? MR JAGGA No Chairperson, it was normal flats or houses that one would find in Lesotho and there was no extra ordinary riches that could be found there. I would say it was the average house in Lesotho. MR LAX Was that the average accommodation of ANC people in Lesotho? MR JAGGA Most of the top structures had homes like that, Chairperson. MR LAX And the other structures lower down? MR JAGGA They did not have fixed places where they lived, they moved around. What I mean by that, Chairperson, is that they did not regularly or often stay in one place because of the fact after the 1985 raid. MR LAX ; But then you'll agree with what Buthelezi says that that standard of accommodation that she had was higher than the average of the rest of the ANC? MR JAGGA I would agree Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON For example, the normal MK members. MR JAGGA Yes, that's correct Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Thank you Mr Malindi. MR MALINDI Thank you Chairperson. And if you look at paragraph 2 of Buthelezi's statement ... MR VISSER Chairperson, this is not a statement. I think we must call the evidence what it is. It is supposed to be comments, it's not signed by him, it's not an affidavit, it's not even a statement, its comments. CHAIRPERSON He's actually commenting on the applications that were put forward. MR MALINDI As the Court pleases. CHAIRPERSON Ja, he's just commenting on what the unlikelihood is. MR MALINDI As the Court pleases. At page 53 of the document, paragraph 2, that second line more towards the middle it says some money and a list of people who were supposed to get money from SIDA, was left in her flat, so she had money with her, according to Buthelezi's comments. Is that how you also read it? CHAIRPERSON It's the third paragraph. MR JAGGA I have that, yes Chairperson. That is how I read it. MR MALINDI And if necessary, evidence will be led that Betty Boom was specifically sent to Lesotho well equipped to revive MK structures in Lesotho as they were under attack at that time, from the Lesotho Government. MR JAGGA That is not how we had it, Chairperson. MR LAX Sorry, I didn't hear the translation. Did you say that is not how you heard, you understood it? MR JAGGA Yes, she was there to work with the machinery, but she was not well-equipped. MR MALINDI And what I suggest is that your story that she was ripe for recruitment because she had financial problems, is not true. MR JAGGA That is true, Chairperson. MR MALINDI After you took your three recruits back into Lesotho, what possible explanation did you expect them to give for their absence, for Betty's absence for a week and for the others for days fewer than a week? MR JAGGA As we understood it from them, Chairperson, there was not really anyone to apologise to. MR MALINDI Well, there were other regional machineries like the Western Cape Machinery, which she was working in co-operation with, which was led by Mpilo. MR JAGGA Mpilo was already killed by then, Chairperson. MR MALINDI Well the Western Cape Machinery which still existed. MR JAGGA They only said that they would be fine, Chairperson. MR MALINDI After you had removed them Lesotho in broad daylight and Jantjie has testified that there were people around the flats where you took Betty away from, after you dropped them at a public place like a taxi rank, you didn't expect them to explain themselves to anyone for their absence? MR JAGGA They said that they knew how to deal with it Chairperson. MR MALINDI Now again what I suggest to you is that there was no explanation for them to do, because after they were abducted, they never went back to Lesotho. MR JAGGA No, that is not so Chairperson. MR MALINDI And is it your evidence that if all three refused to be informers, you would have taken them back to Lesotho? MR JAGGA That is so, Chairperson. MR MALINDI That is very hard to believe. MR JAGGA But it is so, Chairperson. Can I just say here Chairperson that Lesotho was neutral ground. There was no fighting if we met the trained MK members there. MR LAX Are you seriously making that proposition in the light of the fact that the South African Government and Leganye's regime were co-operating, in the light of all the raids, in the light of the other activities we've all heard about during these periods, that it was neutral ground? MR JAGGA It's true, Chairperson. MR LAX You've already told us that on your version the shooting incident that's referred to here was between the Lesotho police and these guys, so it was hardly neutral territory. MR JAGGA Very well, I concede that to you, but just to answer. What I wanted to say was that we took them back, Chairperson. MR LAX No, that's different, but it wasn't neutral ground, that's for sure. MR JAGGA I understand. MR MALINDI Thank you. According to Jantjie, before you took Betty away, she had already indicated that she was being suspected by the ANC and your informers had already told you that and after abducting here, the logical thing to do would have been to have her work as an informer inside South Africa, then ...(indistinct) other MK members inside the country. Turn her into an askari working with you inside. It doesn't make sense to say we are taking you back to Lesotho when she's already under suspicion. MR JAGGA Chairperson, the circumstances were so that she never was under suspicion with her fellow cell members and that is why we took her back. MR LAX Are you saying she was only under suspicion from her cell? MR JAGGA No, she was not. CHAIRPERSON He's saying the Lesotho people, that's his evidence, the Lesotho people suspected her, not her unit or MK members, that's his evidence. MR LAX Thank you. And are you saying you had informers high placed enough who would have told you that? MR JAGGA Correct, Chairperson, we felt safe and she felt safe in going back. MR LAX Obviously that's not Jantjie's version. MR JAGGA That's what I heard Chairperson. MR MALINDI Then you know if you turned her into an askari to work within South Africa, then it would have gone a long way to solve her problems. She would have regained her freedom from MK, she would have gained access to her home and she was homesick and she would have been paid by the Security Branch. Why did she opt to go back to Lesotho to face the same hardships instead of the easier option of being an internal informer? MR JAGGA She never wanted to see herself as an askari, Chairperson. MR LAX What was the difference? What was the difference between being an askari and being an informer, selling out even more people in Lesotho? MR JAGGA Chairperson, I am speculating now. Askaris were always attached to Vlakplaas, or connected to Vlakplaas and I think that is why, right from the start, she said no, not an askari. MR LAX She didn't have to be an askari, she could have been an internal informer just as easily. MR JAGGA Correct, Chairperson. MR LAX You see, I have the same difficulty and you heard me put it to Mr Jantjie, how does someone who's homesick, who's tired of the struggle, who doesn't see the point of the struggle, how someone who's in that state of mind now in South Africa, want to go back into Lesotho, back to face the same conditions? MR JAGGA Once again speculation, Chairperson. We asked her to remain, but she did not want to. She proposed to go back so one can only wonder Chairperson. MR LAX When did you ask her to remain? MR JAGGA The first time when we received the information that we possibly caught some eyes in Lesotho, before this whole operation started, if I may put it as such. MR LAX We've never heard that evidence from you or Jantjie before this, that you actually asked her to stay in South Africa, because so far your evidence has been that the whole purpose was to recruit her and send her back. The whole purpose wasn't to make her stay. MR JAGGA You are partially correct there. She had already been recruited from Lesotho. MR LAX No but you're speaking to her in Lesotho, this is your evidence now. MR JAGGA That's correct. MR LAX Before you brought her back to South Africa, you want her to come to South Africa where she'd be safe, where she doesn't have to go back into a terrible position. MR JAGGA Chairperson, can I just state it as follows. During all that time, we asked them that. MR LAX All of them? MR JAGGA Yes. MR LAX We haven't had that before from anyone. MR JAGGA And despite that fact, they said they wanted to go back Chairperson. MR LAX Carry on Mr Malindi. MR MALINDI Thank you Chairperson. Before the Ladybrand Security Branch moved into this farm, where were you based before then? MR JAGGA Ladybrand Chairperson, before I arrived at the Security Branch. Oh I beg your pardon, will you please repeat the question? MR MALINDI The Security Branch used this farm where you recruited Betty and her cell unit members very close to the end of the year, I think the evidence so far is about from November. Before November 1987, where were you based as the Security Branch? MR JAGGA Ladybrand itself, Chairperson. MR MALINDI And then you moved into this farm specifically to gather information from Lesotho or what was the position? Why did you specifically move onto this farm? MR JAGGA This farm was only used from time to time. We did not move from the office there and just operate there. MR MALINDI What was it used for from time to time? MR JAGGA To task informers and to receive information from them, Chairperson. MR MALINDI Were those the informers which were in South Africa? MR JAGGA Correct, Chairperson. MR MALINDI Was this a Vlakplaas-type situation where you conducted special operations with your informers and in fact where you received Vlakplaas officers to come and instruct you in your operations? MR JAGGA Chairperson, no Vlakplaas member ever visited that farm and it was not a Vlakplaas-type operation, Chairperson. MR LAX Sorry. How do you know no Vlakplaas people ever visited that farm? MR JAGGA Once again, while I was there, Chairperson. MR MALINDI Because if I remember well, Jantjie accepted that Eugene de Kock visited the farm several times. CHAIRPERSON No, no, Ladybrand. MR MALINDI Oh, Ladybrand? CHAIRPERSON Yes, not there. MR MALINDI Thank you Chairperson, my mistake. CHAIRPERSON Ja, no that's okay. MR MALINDI What made Nomasonto to want to part with her child after you successfully recruited her as an informer? MR JAGGA The fact that they suffered in Lesotho Chairperson. MR MALINDI Financially? MR JAGGA Financially they suffered and possibly soon they had to infiltrate into the RSA and it would have been difficult for her with a baby. MR MALINDI But the money situation was going to be resolved soon, because as your informer, you were going to pay her handsomely. MR JAGGA Correct, Chairperson, but she did propose that the baby go to her parents. MR MALINDI Is it not so that the child had to be sent to the parents, to the grandparents because the mother was no longer living? MR JAGGA No, Chairperson, definitely not. MR MALINDI And you say you can't remember any detail of the letter that Nomasonto sent with the child. MR JAGGA Correct, Chairperson. MR MALINDI My instructions are that the note contained nothing more than the addresses where the child was to be sent, the two addresses of the two sets of grandparents and the immunisation details, do you remember that? MR JAGGA No, Chairperson. MR MALINDI And that the note contained no message to the parents at all. MR JAGGA As I have already said Chairperson I cannot remember. MR MALINDI If the family received a note, as I'm describing now, that doesn't sound like a note from someone who wanted to communicate with their family, who - it sounds like a very terse note of someone who just wanted to give enough information for the child to be delivered there. Do you agree with that? MR JAGGA I would not know, Chairperson. MR MALINDI What I also can't believe and I submit that its improbable, is that Nomasonto and Tax agreed to be picked up by strangers on the mere say-so of Betty Boom or the mention of her name. MR JAGGA Chairperson, we have already heard here that she was the Commander of the machinery and that is how it happened. MR MALINDI And Nomasonto and Tax were trained MK soldiers who had to be extra vigilant in Lesotho and they are told: "Your Commander who is in South Africa, wants you to come over to her" and they agreed to that. MR JAGGA They agreed, Chairperson. MR lax To be fair to the witness, with regard to Tax, Betty Boom had, on his version anyway, Betty Boom had spoken to him so it wasn't just the mention of a name, it was on their version, a pre-arranged meeting. MR MALINDI As the Court pleases. Even in the situation of Tax, an MK person who has to be very suspicious of a unit Commander who is no longer in Lesotho, doesn't know under what circumstances she went across, agrees that he must be picked up and be taken across the border, that's strange. MR JAGGA He did accompany us, Chairperson. MR MALINDI And you have already said that after talking to Betty about her being called to Lusaka, you never heard anything from her again. MR JAGGA Never again heard from her, Chairperson. MR MALINDI You never took any steps to find out where she was. MR JAGGA We, through informal channels, tried to determine, but we couldn't contact her again. MR MALINDI About Mbulelo Ngono, that's KK, did you know anything about him before the informer told you that he was in the vicinity of the University in ...(indistinct) CHAIRPERSON Mr Malindi, I think you are going into another area. I don't want us to break it in between, in the middle, I want when you start with an incident, we complete it. I see it's just five to eleven. Would we - allow us to take a break, but before we do so, about this hearing which is going to be part-heard I have tried my utmost and the available date is the 13th to the 17th of November. During tea-time we can check our diaries and see what we can do about that. We'll take the tea adjournment. COMMITTEE ADJOURNS ON RESUMPTION CHAIRPERSON Thank you. ANTONIE JAGGA (s.u.o.) CHAIRPERSON Mr Malindi. MR MALINDI Thank you Chairperson. CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MALINDI (cont.) Mr Jagga before the informer told you about KK, that is Ngono, that he was somewhere near the university, did you know anything about him before then? MR JAGGA Correct Chairperson. MR MALINDI What is it that you knew about him? MR JAGGA We knew that he, along with Mpilo in the Cape, were involved in the Cape or Transkei machinery. MR MALINDI Did you know that he had conducted any operations inside the country or not? MR JAGGA We also knew that in South Africa he was involved in incidents, Chairperson. MR MALINDI And therefore the priority would have been to have him arrested and prosecuted for all those offences that he might have committed inside the country. MR JAGGA Chairperson here it's once again a case of if he had himself arrested and he went to jail, then we got out of touch with the Cape Machinery in which he was involved and we decided then to use him as an informer rather. MR MALINDI But you had plenty informers and about 30 people to be monitored, very close to one informer per operative. MR JAGGA One, in the Intelligence world, cannot ever have enough informers Chairperson. MR MALINDI I would like to - Chairperson, may I just indicate that from now on I'll be jumping from point to point, because I'm nearing my cross-examinations ...(indistinct) CHAIRPERSON Certainly, you may do that. MR MALINDI May I just clarify something? You gave one of the reasons for Nomasonto wanting the child to be taken to her parents as having to do infiltration, I wasn't clear whether it was infiltration into South Africa as an MK person, or infiltration into the ANC as an informer. MR JAGGA Infiltration as an MK and we would then obtain the necessary information from her, Chairperson. MR LAX Can I just clarify something on that? I understood you to be meaning at the time you gave that evidence that she was about to be sent into South Africa on operation. MR JAGGA That's correct, Chairperson. MR LAX And therefore the child would be a hindrance in such operations. MR JAGGA But we wouldn't have sent her to South Africa, the ANC would have sent her to South Africa. MR LAX Absolutely. In other words the Free State Machinery was planning to send her into South Africa to conduct operations. MR JAGGA Correct Chairperson. MR MALINDI And according to your information was it just her, or she, together with members of her unit? MR JAGGA Chairperson, the whole cell would at some stage have moved to South Africa. MR LAX Does that include Betty Boom? MR JAGGA To a certain extent yes, Chairperson, she would have also come to South Africa from time to time. MR LAX You'll agree that that's very unusual for the Commander of the Machinery. MR JAGGA That's correct, Chairperson, but we must keep in mind that basically there was no longer any Free State Machinery existing. MR LAX Sorry, did you say there was no longer any Free State Machinery existing? MR JAGGA No, it did exist, but on a very small scale, Chairperson, it was not a large, big strong machinery that functioned, Chairperson, that's what I mean. MR LAX But you arrested someone who was part of that Machinery in Bloemfontein, not you personally, but that's the evidence. MR JAGGA That's correct, Chairperson. MR LAX So somebody was being active in Bloemfontein. MR JAGGA That's correct. Chairperson, what I mean by that is that - let us say that the plan was that 10 MK members had to be deployed in Free State and in the meantime there were only two or three, that is what I'm trying to convey to the Committee. MR LAX Sorry, can I just again say that the Afrikaans interpretation is sounding very funny to me. I don't know if anyone else is having the same - the English/Afrikaans interpretation. Can you just check it again, Cecil? I'm just worried that what gets on the tape is what I'm hearing and it may be something to do with the mike. MR MALINDI And you say in the meantime there were two to three members who could infiltrate the Free State? MR JAGGA That had already been in the Free State, Chairperson. MR MALINDI What I'm trying to say is, you had three members of the unit as your informers. You had information ...(intervention) MR LAX Can we just stop for a minute? They just want to change the mike in the interpretation box. MR MALINDI Thank you Chairperson. The point I'm making is that you had three people in the cell, you had information that they would be sent into the Free State on operations. I don't know what you were going to gain out of that. Your informers were going to conduct operations. You were going to effectively arrest your own informers, or what was going to be achieved by allowing them to be part of those infiltrations if you were not going to gain anything out of it. MR JAGGA Chairperson, I think the most important thing here is that we half and half wanted to handle the machinery ourselves later and the second thing there is that at that stage from our side we did not really know which MK members had already been deployed from the Free State machinery in the Free State. MR LAX But I think the point is this. How were you going to protect your informers once they went on operations into the Free State? MR JAGGA Chairperson, can I be honest? I do not think that we thought that far at that stage. That was a problem that we would look at when we got there. MR MALINDI I would like you to comment on some of the instructions I have about each of the members of this unit. Did you know that Tax Sejanamane lived with his wife in Lesotho? MR JAGGA No, I didn't know. I did not know, Chairperson. MR MALINDI And that he and his wife rented a room in his wife's sister's premises. MR JAGGA No, I did not know, Chairperson. MR MALINDI And my instructions are that after he disappeared, because you took him away, he never went back to this house. MR JAGGA I do not know about that, Chairperson. MR MALINDI If you had taken him back to Lesotho, he would have gone back to his house and stayed there to be your informer, to work within the MK structures? MR JAGGA I would assume so, Chairperson. MR MALINDI Before two members of the Security Branch took Nomasonto's child to her parents, did you send a woman there ahead of these two police officers? MR JAGGA No, Chairperson. MR MALINDI Because my instructions are that a woman arrived on a Saturday at the home of Nomasonto's parents, spent the night there and on the Sunday, told them that they had to go to Lesotho and fetch the child. You don't know about this? MR JAGGA Nothing Chairperson. MR MALINDI And that they went on the Monday, but could not gain access into Lesotho because they did not have passports and this woman had told them that they won't need passports. MR JAGGA I don't know about this whole incident, Chairperson. MR MALINDI And when they returned home on that Monday, two strangers, two men then arrived in a vehicle to deliver the child. MR JAGGA That is then the two men that we sent, Chairperson. MR MALINDI And the family members in particular, Mrs Mashea, say that the note contained no more than what I've already put to you. MR JAGGA I've already said, Chairperson, I don't know. CHAIRPERSON Well, but if I may come in, don't you somewhere say that you read the note yourself? MR JAGGA No, Chairperson, I said that I would have ensured that the note was read before I would allow them taking the baby along with a note. In other words I would have known what the contents of the note were before I let it go. CHAIRPERSON Just give me some time. MR VISSER Chairperson, you're referring to page 7(c) the top of the page, the fifth line. MR LAX 7(c) or 7(g)? CHAIRPERSON No, no, it's not on 7(c). ...(indistinct) MR LAX Yes, no I made the same mistake earlier in looking at the papers, so that's why I was alert. CHAIRPERSON Ja, this is what you say on 7(c) "She requested us (a boy) to take the boy to Vereeniging or Vanderbijlpark, where her parents lived. She wrote a short note to them that I read, but I cannot recall the exact words any longer." MR JAGGA Chairperson, I cannot recall the contents thereof and if it was written in a black language, I would not be able to read it, so that may be a mistake in my statement, but I would have seen to it that the note was read by a person if it was in a black language, what the contents was thereof. CHAIRPERSON But that does not give me the impression that the letter would have been in a black language, otherwise you would not have read the letter, you would have said: "I could not recall the contents of the letter because it was in another language." MR JAGGA I agree, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON You may proceed, Mr Malindi. MR MALINDI Thank you Chairperson. The two men introduced themselves as members of the MK. Were those the instructions given to them? MR JAGGA Correct, Chairperson. MR MALINDI The family also says that Nomasonto used to write frequently to the family. You won't know about that? MR JAGGA I wouldn't know, Chairperson. MR MALINDI And that she sent Christmas cards and that in 1986 in particular two Christmas cards were received, you won't know about that? MR JAGGA I would not have any knowledge about that Chairperson. MR MALINDI The point I want to make out of that is that now that she was supposedly your informer and had a little bit of leeway maybe to contact her family, she never phoned or wrote a letter or inquired after the child after you delivered the child, is that not strange? MR JAGGA I agree, it is strange Chairperson. MR MALINDI In other words, she may not have been in a fit position to do so, to make these inquiries. MR JAGGA That is the only inference or speculation that one can reach Chairperson. MR MALINDI And she was unable to do so because after you abducted her she was never sent back to Lesotho, but her child was sent back, maybe regarded as an innocent. MR JAGGA Chairperson, she was taken back to Lesotho. MR LAX May I just ask something here? If the ANC for example had decided to take disciplinary measure against these people of whatever nature, here were three or four people in the ANC, a small community, of which you said there were no more than thirty people in Lesotho at that time, surely all your informers would have known about it? MR JAGGA To an extent I have to agree with you Chairperson, if it took place in Lesotho, then we would have known. MR LAX Well, the point I'm trying to make is, we're dealing with possibilities and probabilities and what I'm suggesting to you is that if it was the probability that the ANC did something to her, whether it was disciplinary or otherwise, there's no way you wouldn't have known about it. MR JAGGA It's possible, Chairperson. MR LAX And so therefore we can rule that out as a probability because you would have heard about it in such a small close-knit community, that four people were all dealt with. MR JAGGA That is so Chairperson. MR MALINDI Thank you Chairperson. I'm instructed by the Ngono family that he also kept regular contact with the family. You won't know that. MR JAGGA I wouldn't know about that Chairperson. MR MALINDI In fact his sister went to attend school in Lesotho and she had fair contact with him. Were you aware of that through your informers? MR JAGGA No, Chairperson. MR MALINDI And his sister says she last saw him about February 1988 and he was very nervous, wouldn't say what was wrong and all he said was: "If I did not die this time, I will never die." You don't know about that? MR JAGGA Chairperson, what was the date again, I beg your pardon? CHAIRPERSON 1988. MR JAGGA 1988. Chairperson, then this is clear proof. We took the man in December back to Lesotho. His sister saw him in February of 88, then I don't know, Chairperson. MR MALINDI And I would like to refer you to page 57 of your bundle, to a statement by Nathaniel Mona Ntunya. You can see from paragraph 10 to paragraph 17, it's a description of a shoot-out in which Ngono was involved according to Ntunya. MR JAGGA Yes, Chairperson. MR MALINDI What I would like to suggest to you is that when Ngono said to his sister: "If I did not die this time, I will never die", he must have been referring to this incident. MR JAGGA I cannot comment on that Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON How long after the three were abducted, was Ngono abducted? MR JAGGA Within a day or two, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON And if you read from paragraph 10 up to 17, it would appear that two weeks later, according to Ntunya, Ngono was still in their presence. MR JAGGA It would appear so, Chairperson. MR LAX Sorry, the other thing that I wanted to just point out was that this is the Mpilo who you say died in December, who is still alive here. MR JAGGA That is what is strange to me, Chairperson. MR LAX And the very same Mpilo who then is killed in the hospital a few days after this incident. MR JAGGA That is strange Chairperson. MR LAX The very same Mpilo who Mr Khadi says Jantjie killed. MR JAGGA I don't have an answer Chairperson. MR LAX Is it not possible, as I've said to Mr Jantjie, that in the last 13 years, you're making a mistake and you've telescoped something that happened a few weeks later, after Betty Boom and these people, into one continuous incident, whereas it may have been separated by a bit more time? MR JAGGA No Chairperson, it's definitely as we told it. MR LAX Sorry, Mr Malindi. MR MALINDI The family says Joe Mapumolo phoned the family about March 1988 and told Mrs Ngono to go to Lesotho in order to demand her child from the Lesotho police because he had been arrested by them. You don't know about that? MR JAGGA I don't know about that Chairperson. MR MALINDI But on the day you abducted Ngono, you went via the police station in Lesotho, is it not so? MR JAGGA That's how I understand it from Jantjie's evidence Chairperson, but I was not involved. CHAIRPERSON It was Tulo and Jantjie who abducted KK. MR JAGGA Thank you Chairperson. MR MALINDI And this sounds true because anyone who would have seen Ngono being abducted would have thought that it was Lesotho policemen, because they were co-operating with you and you went to the police station, actually. MR LAX Well not you, you keep saying you. MR MALINDI Your unit. MR JAGGA Correct, Chairperson. MR MALINDI And I would like also to put it to you that at the time Ngono was abducted, he was staying with Lindelwa, who was his lover and her sister called Nandipha. MR JAGGA I don't know, Chairperson. MR MALINDI Chairperson, if the Committee may bear with me for a second? CHAIRPERSON Okay, Certainly. MR LAX Just while you're looking, if I may. You said you got information about Ngono from an informer. MR JAGGA Correct, Chairperson. MR LAX Did you not keep him under surveillance for a few days before you'd abduct him? MR JAGGA Not I myself, Chairperson. MR LAX Not you? Did Jantjie do that? MR JAGGA I cannot recall, Chairperson, I cannot recall that. MR LAX But surely that would have been your modus operandi. You get information about a person, you go you want to recce the place, you want to make sure that if you are going to do anything, you know the area, you know what his movements are, you know who his associates are, to make sure that your information is confirmed. MR JAGGA That is possibly so, Chairperson. MR LAX Because I would want to suggest to you that even if you personally weren't involved in that, that your members must have done that. MR JAGGA I cannot recall, Chairperson. I myself never went to Roma, so I'm not able to say. MR LAX So if you never went to Roma, then how did you know where to find him? MR JAGGA Jantjie knew where Chairperson, the information was conveyed and they knew where. I never physically went along with them. MR LAX I see. So you're saying it's possible that Jantjie and Tulo kept him under observation? MR JAGGA It's very possible, Chairperson. MR LAX Surely they would have done that, come to you and Robert Shaw and said: "Listen, we've kept him under observation, we're familiar with the place now, it's safe to do what we want to do" and then when you then discussed the plan, that would have been factors you would have taken into account. MR JAGGA Possibly, but I cannot recall Chairperson. MR LAX You'll concede that it's very possible that that's what you would have done? MR JAGGA Correct, Chairperson. MR LAX Because that's what you did with Betty Boom. MR JAGGA Yes, that's correct, Chairperson. MR LAX And just while we're on this issue, you said that you already knew about Tax? MR JAGGA Correct, Chairperson. MR LAX What steps had you taken to keep him under surveillance? MR JAGGA None, Chairperson. MR LAX Why? MR JAGGA I am not able to say, Chairperson. MR LAX Surely here's an MK, trained member, you've heard about him, he's been acting in other operations, is that right? MR JAGGA Correct, Chairperson. MR LAX Surely you'd want to keep him under observation, make sure what the possibilities are? MR JAGGA I cannot recall, Chairperson. MR LAX You see, if your task was to recruit as many people as possible when he comes to your attention, it seems inconceivable to me that you wouldn't keep him under some surveillance and that you wouldn't try and establish whether here is another guy who is a possible informer. MR JAGGA It's possible that it was done Chairperson, but I cannot recall that it was done. MR LAX Yes, because you see, if it was done, you would have known that he lived with his wife, you would have known his background, you would have got to know a whole lot of information about him. MR JAGGA Correct, Chairperson. MR LAX And it seems surprising that having got information of him before you even knew about Betty Boom, that those avenues either weren't followed up, or that you can't remember anything else about him. You'll concede that? MR JAGGA I don't know, Chairperson. MR LAX Sorry. Have you found your place? MR MALINDI Thank you Sir. Betty Boom's family also says she kept contact with the family and that sometimes she would arrange secret meetings in Bloemfontein. She kept contact with the family. You don't know that? MR JAGGA I don't know about that Chairperson. MR MALINDI And that that family also never heard anything about her after she was abducted by your unit. MR JAGGA I'm not able to say, Chairperson. MR MALINDI And again, if she was working for you, it would have made it much easier for her to keep in touch with the family. She was lonely and homesick and she didn't do it after you abducted her. MR JAGGA I don't know why, Chairperson. MR MALINDI Do you remember which car was used to take Betty Nomasonto and Tax back into Lesotho? MR JAGGA I believe it would have been a double cab 4 x 4, Chairperson. MR LAX What was the registration number of that vehicle, can you remember? MR JAGGA Not at all, Chairperson. MR LAX Was it a police vehicle? MR JAGGA Yes, but it had local registration, it wasn't an SAP registration number. MR LAX It wasn't one of those vehicles that ended with B? MR JAGGA Definitely not, Chairperson. MR LAX And the incident referred to by Ntunya from page 57 talks of a vehicle similar to the one that you have described to the Committee, a 4 x 4 cream-white, tinted windows, from about paragraph 10. MR LAX Very interestingly enough it says the rear windows were tinted, which is what you described, not the windscreen. MR JAGGA What I infer from this Chairperson, it was only the rear windows. My bakkie's right front, left front, the whole vehicle, was tinted, except for the windscreen and here they do not give a colour but I deny that it was us or our vehicle that was here, Chairperson. MR LAX No, no, we know you deny that it was you guys. MR JAGGA Thank you Chairperson. MR LAX Just as a matter of interest, you told us that this incident entailed a road block. However, how it's described here, is not a road block, you'd agree with that? MR JAGGA That is correct, Chairperson. MR MALINDI But it may accord with your evidence, because this statement says they stopped in order to clean the windscreen. They may have stopped some metres from the road block and then an advancement may have been made towards them and they were shot at. MR JAGGA I wouldn't know Chairperson, I went on hearsay here. MR MALINDI I don't know if you've given this evidence before. Are you able to give the Committee the address where Betty Boom stayed? The flat with the high fence? MR JAGGA No, Chairperson. MR MALINDI Of Nomasonto? MR JAGGA No, Chairperson. MR MALINDI Of Tax? MR JAGGA No, Chairperson. MR MALINDI Of the place where Ngono stayed with his lover? MR JAGGA No, Chairperson. MR MALINDI Chairperson, just another minute to take further instructions. Thank you. CHAIRPERSON But do you still remember the places, Mr Jagga? MR JAGGA No, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON So we can't even conduct an inspection in loco then? MR JAGGA No, I would not be able to point it out Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Could it be as described by Mr Jantjie that it could be about 4 to 5 kilometres outside Maseru at Ditabaneng? MR JAGGA That is possible, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Now whilst Mr Malindi is taking instructions, I want to refer you to page 7(d), paragraph 11 "Information that we received indicated that Betty Boom and her comrades worked independently and were apparently not linked up with any other MK cells." MR JAGGA Correct, Chairperson. MR LAX But that's not what you told us about Betty Boom at all. MR JAGGA No, Chairperson but Betty Boom and her comrades did not with other cells, but Betty on her own liaised with the others, that is what I said earlier on. That is how I wanted to convey it, or how I wanted to convey it here, Chairperson. MR LAX But you told us they were going to be part of the Machinery and they would be infiltrated and become part of the bigger group, of at least ten people, you said. MR JAGGA In the Free State, Chairperson, yes, but this incident deals with while they were in Lesotho. MR LAX Your evidence is that they were going to have to work with the other people who were going to be all infiltrated together with those who were already there. You said there were two or three people already in the Free State, so if there were going to be at least ten of them, which is what your evidence was, how were they going to ...(end of tape) if it was Lesotho or not, is irrelevant, as far as I'm concerned. The reason I'm asking you this is they weren't working in Lesotho, were they? MR JAGGA No. MR LAX The issue of them working is that in order for them to work in the Free State, they have to be involved with the other comrades who were also going to be put ...(indistinct) MR JAGGA That's correct and in the Free State they would have worked with other people. MR LAX They'd have to be involved in the planning of what was going to take place, as to where they were all going to go, if they were going to work as a composite unit. MR JAGGA That's correct, Chairperson. MR LAX So therefore it doesn't make sense that they wouldn't have been co-ordinated with those, the rest of their comrades. MR JAGGA As it appears here, I concede Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON And if you could allow me this Mr Malindi. Again if you look at 7(i), paragraph 42 and I would refer you to the second sentence which is about the fourth line "I know that Jantjie informed her that she under no circumstances should go because the organisation probably suspected them as being double agents. He proposed that they come to the RSA where the South African Police could possibly use them as so-called askaris. However, she did not agree to last mentioned, she rejected that proposal." How I understood your evidence was that when they were recruited, this suggestion of askaris was made and Betty was not interested in such a suggestion. MR JAGGA Correct, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON But when I read this paragraph which I've read to you, after they had been recruited, if you have regard to paragraph 41, where contact was made with them and they were now suspected, or not rather suspected, were called back to Zambia, that's when now this suggestion that no, no, no, don't go, come to the RSA, you would be an askari, which she rejected. MR JAGGA Correct, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Are you in a position to continue? MR MALINDI Yes, Chairperson, thank you. Mr Jagga, what I would like to put to you is that yours and Jantjie's version, although there are contradictions between the two versions, is so improbable that the only inference that can be drawn in as far as the disappearance of Betty Boom's unit members and herself and Ngono, is that they were never returned to Lesotho and that they disappeared at your farm in Ladybrand which the Security Branch used for special operations. MR JAGGA That is definitely not the case, Chairperson. MR MALINDI And what I would like to put to you also is that Betty did not voluntarily go to South Africa. Nomasonto did not go to the farm on the mere mention of Betty's name and Tax didn't go there because of a prior telephone discussion between him and Betty, but they were all abducted. MR JAGGA They did go with us, Chairperson. MR MALINDI And of course with Ngono, you accept that he was abducted? MR JAGGA Correct, Chairperson. MR MALINDI Thank you Chairperson, no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MALINDI CHAIRPERSON Thank you Mr Malindi. Mr Mapoma, any questions? MR MAPOMA Just a few Chairperson. CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MAPOMA What is your purpose for applying for amnesty? MR JAGGA To get indemnity from these acts that we committed, the abduction of a person. MR MAPOMA When did you become aware that the persons concerned in this matter, their whereabouts are unknown? MR JAGGA I think and I stand to be corrected Chairperson, that this was in 1985 for the first time. MR MAPOMA 19? MR JAGGA 1995, Chairperson. MR VISSER Chairperson, I don't understand the question. I'm not quite sure what the question means. When their whereabouts became - were unknown. MR LAX The question is, when did you become aware that these people were missing? That's what the thrust of the question was, that they'd never been seen again and he answered it on the basis that it was in 1995. You understood the question? MR JAGGA That's correct, yes. MR LAX In the way I've suggested? MR JAGGA Yes and we found it out from the TRC's Investigative Officers. MR LAX So what you became aware of that there was an investigation into them because they hadn't been seen again. MR JAGGA Correct, Chairperson. MR VISSER Thank you. MR MAPOMA So when you applied for amnesty, you knew already that they are missing? MR JAGGA That is what we heard, Chairperson. MR MAPOMA And these investigators of the TRC when they contacted you, did they suggest to you that you have any knowledge of their whereabouts? MR JAGGA I can only say to you, or inform you Chairperson, that we were questioned in Durban where, I do not recall the Judge, or who was the chairing official and after he was finished he felt that we shouldn't even apply for amnesty. Mr Wagener accompanied us there, Chairperson. MR MAPOMA But despite that, you felt that you want to apply for amnesty? MR JAGGA That is so, Chairperson, on the insistence of our legal representative, Mr Wagener. MR MAPOMA Had you not been contacted by the TRC, would you apply for amnesty anyway? MR JAGGA I believe so, Chairperson. MR MAPOMA Okay let's go to another issue now. In your evidence-in-chief you said that you - I'm asking you about the incident now where Gadebe was killed in a shoot-out in Lesotho. You said that you became aware of that incident, you were informed actually by the Lesotho police after it occurred. MR JAGGA Correct, Chairperson. MR MAPOMA How soon after it occurred were you informed? MR JAGGA I would not be able to say chairperson. MR MAPOMA A day? A week? MR VISSER He says he can't remember chairperson. MR MAPOMA Yes, I mean you may not be able to remember, but if it was a day after that you would remember? MR JAGGA No, I am not able to say, Chairperson, it's difficult. MR MAPOMA Now when you instructed Jantjie and Tulo to make contact with Ngono, were you aware that Ngono was involved in that incident? MR JAGGA I believe so, Chairperson, because we knew about him. MR MAPOMA Now as the Security Branch of Ladybrand, were you making contact with other Security Branches throughout the country when the need arose? MR JAGGA Correct, Chairperson, we did liaise with those people. MR MAPOMA And at the time when you were pursuing Ngono, you were aware that Ngono was involved in some activities in the Transkei, MK operations in the Transkei? MR JAGGA That is what we understood Chairperson. MR MAPOMA ; Did you make contact with the Security Branch of Transkei to find out what kind of activities Ngono was involved in? MR JAGGA No, that was not my function Chairperson. MR LAX May I just interpose here, Mr Mapoma? There was regular information being sent between the different branches. MR JAGGA Correct, Chairperson. MR LAX In all likelihood you had a file on Ngono in your office. MR JAGGA Correct, Chairperson. MR LAX And as bits of information filtered through on the feedback system, you would know that here's a guy called Ngono, AK whatever he was and you would have picked up what his involvements would have been. MR JAGGA That's correct from his file if it was all there, Chairperson. MR LAX So the minute the informer mentions his name, you go and look for the file as the field officer and you say well, what do we know about this guy. MR JAGGA Correct, Chairperson. MR LAX So just to clarify Mr Mapoma's question, there was no need for you to phone Transkei, the information would be in your file anyway. MR JAGGA Correct, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON But were you not tasked to collect information with regard to MK members in Lesotho? MR JAGGA Yes, we were, Chairperson. MR LAX Sorry. The thing I was about to say was that in any event with regard to Ngono, once you heard his name, you would have seen that information and therefore you were aware that when you saw the name, that there were these activities in the Transkei. MR JAGGA Correct, Chairperson. MR VISSER May I just say, Chairperson, to put in perspective, what we know now is that these activities took place in the Transkei in February 1988, so it may or it may not have been there in December when this witness says that he ...(intervention) MR LAX You see, that's why I'm asking him these questions. The time Ngono came to his knowledge, he was aware - when he got the file, he must have known that these Transkei things were there and he's saying yes, he did. Now I wasn't saying to you at what time the Transkei things happened, and the issue that Mr Visser is raising, doesn't help you, because you've already answered the question. CHAIRPERSON No, he hasn't finished saying what he wanted to say. Have you Mr Visser? MR VISSER Chairperson, if it appears that we can draw a file which will show that this incident took place in February 1988 then on this witness's evidence clearly it couldn't have been in the file, that's the only point I'm making. MR LAX ; Or there's another inference that can be drawn, which is that this witness is mistaken about the timing. MR JAGGA No, Chairperson, with regard to the file, if it was in the file during that time, I can say it was there, but if it wasn't there, I cannot say. MR LAX The point is you remember it being there, because that's what I was asking you. When you got this information from your informer and you took out the file, was there anything there about the Transkei? You said yes. So you remember it being there. MR JAGGA ; Then I expressed myself poorly, Chairperson. MR LAX I'm not sure that you did, you see, because that further reinforces the possibility that you might be mistaken about the time. MR JAGGA No, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON You may proceed, Mr Mapoma. MR MAPOMA Chairperson, I think that is all. Thanks a lot. I'm finished. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MAPOMA CHAIRPERSON Thank you Mr Mapoma. Any re-examination Mr Visser? MR VISSER No thank you Chairperson. NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR VISSER CHAIRPERSON Any questions from the Panel for clarity? MR LAX Thanks Chairperson, just a few small things. With regard to your surveillance of Betty Boom, did you ever follow her to her house in Maseru? MR JAGGA No, Chairperson. MR LAX And let's be clear about this, the house, the flat wasn't in Maseru, it was in this place outside of Maseru, Ditabaneng? MR JAGGA Yes, it's a suburb of Maseru. MR LAX But it's not Maseru proper. MR JAGGA It goes through as Maseru, Chairperson. MR LAX And although you kept her under surveillance for quite some time, you never ever followed her to that house? MR JAGGA The second house, or are we referring...? No never, Chairperson. MR LAX You say you followed her and you observed her meeting with members of her cell. MR JAGGA Correct, Chairperson. MR LAX ; You must also have observed her meetings with other people as part of the Command structure? MR JAGGA That I cannot recall, Chairperson. MR LAX It's clear from some of these other documents that she would have had meetings with her Command structure. MR JAGGA It's possible, Chairperson. MR LAX And as the Commander of the Free State Machinery, over a period of a month, she must have had other liaison meetings. MR JAGGA That's probably so, Chairperson, I would not know. MR LAX You never followed her to any one of those meetings? MR JAGGA No, Chairperson. MR LAX So what then confirmed for you that she was head of the Free State Machinery? MR JAGGA Basically from information that she supplied to us herself, Chairperson. MR LAX So you only realised that once you actually had her in your hands? MR JAGGA I would assume so, Chairperson. At this stage I am not 100% sure. MR LAX It's just that your earlier evidence was that that was the information your informer gave you. MR JAGGA If that was my evidence, then it is so, Chairperson. MR LAX You see, I want to suggest to you that if that was your information you would have wanted to confirm that by observing her meetings with the other structures where you would expect the Commander of the Machinery to be at as opposed to simple cell meetings and you'd want to confirm that before you tried to recruit her. MR JAGGA No, Chairperson. MR LAX Now according to these documents, she wasn't seen in Lesotho again after the 16th of December. MR JAGGA That's what I heard, Chairperson. MR LAX Does that date correspond at least to the date you would have abducted her on? MR JAGGA In the beginning of December we abducted her, Chairperson and in the beginning of January, we still had contact with her. She called once and we went to see her again, during the beginning of January 1988. MR LAX So you're adamant that she disappeared before the 16th of December, in the sense that she was missing from Lesotho, at least for some period of time before the 16th of December. MR JAGGA It must be during that time period Chairperson. MR LAX Because she was missing for at least a week, maybe a day or more, or maybe a day or so less. MR JAGGA More or less a week, Chairperson. MR LAX Yes and you say that happened before the 16th of December. MR JAGGA It could only be before that or during then, I cannot place it with conviction in a time period, Chairperson, but it was definitely during the beginning and middle of December, Chairperson, I am sure of that. MR LAX You see, if it could have been in the middle of December, why were you so adamant it couldn't have been on the 16th of December? MR JAGGA No, that could be. MR LAX That's why I asked you the question because then you have your taking her out of Lesotho, roughly coinciding with when her housekeeper says she disappeared. MR JAGGA I don't know Chairperson. MR LAX Well, it's not a question of you don't know, it's a question that it is possible and it fits in with your recollection of events. MR JAGGA It could be possible, Chairperson. MR LAX Now at the time you had her on the farm, and now you're debriefing her, I assume. MR JAGGA Correct, Chairperson. MR LAX In detail. MR JAGGA Correct. MR LAX And at that time you will have established from her that she had regular meetings that she was supposed to attend. MR JAGGA Correct, Chairperson, I would assume that it would have come out. MR LAX And those meetings weren't just with her cell members, but with the other top structures that she was sub - party to. MR JAGGA I would assume so, Chairperson. MR LAX She would have told you that she was a member of the Communist Party Central Committee. MR JAGGA I cannot recall that, Chairperson. Mr lax Well, if you debriefed her, she must have told you that. MR JAGGA I can only recall that she told me that she was trained in Moscow and those things, Chairperson. It's 13 years ago and now you are speaking about finer details. MR LAX You see, it's not such a fine detail, for this reason, that you would have been interested in her political profile, because it was another source of information for you and if she was in the Communist Central Committee, that's a further feather in your cap to get information from a different source, which you would have been very interested in. MR JAGGA I cannot recall that Chairperson. MR LAX But you would concede that that would have been a very important source of information. MR JAGGA I concede and it is quite possible Chairperson, that she might have told me, but I just cannot recall it. MR LAX You see she wasn't just an ANC member, she was a SACP member and they were the hard-liners in the ANC. MR JAGGA I would assume so, Chairperson, but each person ...(intervention) MR LAX Well in your eyes, that would have been the case at the time and that would have been a huge break-through. Here we don't just have an MK who's head of the Machinery but we have the political connection as well, so we can understand the political aspect of the struggle and all those implications, where is the Communist party going, what's it doing, what's its thinking and we get the MK side as well. Isn't that so? MR JAGGA I would assume so, Chairperson. MR LAX And so that's why I find it peculiar that you don't remember that. MR JAGGA I cannot recall it. MR LAX You see, Jantjie didn't recall it either, he would have known that as well, because you both debriefed her. MR JAGGA Chairperson, we've forgotten about all these things years ago and we have distanced ourselves from it. We've forgotten about it. MR LAX Can I say something to you. This is your biggest coup, one of your biggest coups during your career. Isn't that so? MR JAGGA Not really, Chairperson. MR LAX I see. So you had bigger coups than this? MR JAGGA That's correct, Chairperson. MR LAX If Ngono was picked up by other South African Forces, we've ruled out the probability of the ANC because you would have heard about that. MR JAGGA In Lesotho, that's correct. MR LAX Now if he was picked up by any other South African forces and interrogated, or in whatever way dealt with, there would have been security information that would have filtered through about him to you. MR JAGGA Not necessarily, Chairperson, it would depend who it was and what the intention was, then they would never have even informed us of this whole issue. MR LAX So for example if Eugene de Kock and his people went into Lesotho and arrested Ngono and interrogated him and got certain information out of him, you wouldn't have received a report at least with the information, not of what they did with him, but the fact that there was further information about a man? MR JAGGA No, they would not have given any information. MR LAX They didn't feed any further intelligence into the system? MR JAGGA Not back to us. MR LAX I said into the system and from the system to you. MR JAGGA I believe they probably did, Chairperson, I believe they did. MR LAX So you see the point was, you didn't give them information, you gave the system information and the system fed them what they needed to know. MR JAGGA On that basis I would say yes, Chairperson. MR LAX Precisely. MR JAGGA But they would not have informed us and told us: "Listen here, we fetched KK and he's with us". MR LAX Of course they wouldn't have told you that, because that would have breached the need to know basis. MR JAGGA Correct, Chairperson. MR LAX I'm not talking about that. I'm talking about information as part of your system. MR JAGGA I hear what you're saying Chairperson. MR LAX And there if any of them had got it, you would have got that information about him in some way. In other words, let's say "Spesmagte" picked him up and they wanted to try and recruit him or deal with him in some way and they got information from him, that same information would have come through the same information system to you at some point, not that they picked him up but what they got out of him. MR JAGGA No, they wouldn't have said it come from him, they would have said: "Here is unclassified information from a source", that is how it would have arrived at us. There was a built-in mechanism and ways of writing these things to protect the source. MR LAX And if he wasn't a source, but you got the same information about him, for example that he'd been killed, let's say he was killed legitimately in a shoot-out, in a way that wasn't underhand or would have been made to look not underhand, surely it would have made sense that you should have known that a certain MK was dead, because it would have meant that that file could have been shelved. MR JAGGA It would have been circulated, Chairperson. MR LAX Correct. Thank you Chair. CHAIRPERSON Thank you Mr Lax. Mr Sibanyoni? MR SIBANYONI Thank you Mr Chairperson. Mr Jagga, went Nomasonto returned to Lesotho without her child, would not that have caused suspicion or surprise among the people, to be surprised how she managed to send her child home? MR JAGGA I don't believe so, Chairperson. MR SIBANYONI Did you people have informers in Lesotho? That's correct, you said that, but were some of your informers amongst the Lesotho Security Forces? MR JAGGA No, Chairperson, we worked with these people on a colleague basis. MR SIBANYONI But were they giving you some intelligence, some information about members of the ANC ... MR JAGGA After the coup, we contacted them on a daily basis and we were involved in the deportation of MKs and refugees in Lesotho and they supplied lists of everyone who was sent out and everything, Chairperson, and that was done on a very high level. MR SIBANYONI They would obviously inform you on those who remained in Lesotho, who were not deported. MR JAGGA ; Correct, Chairperson, but once again, that's where the problem came in. The people used aliases and MK names, so it was not always the proper name that was attached to a person. MR SIBANYONI This working relationship between Lesotho Security Forces and the team of your unit, was it among others to give you easy operation, in other words that you could operate easily within the Lesotho territory? MR JAGGA The collection of information, yes, Chairperson. MR SIBANYONI Also to follow-up on your targets? MR JAGGA What I mean by that is observation and so further, yes Chairperson. MR SIBANYONI Would it also include turning a blind eye in whatever you do with your targets, you'd abduct them, you'd take them out of Lesotho, that doesn't concern them? MR JAGGA ; Not really, Chairperson. MR SIBANYONI What was de Kock's role in Ladybrand? MR JAGGA I met him a few times, but he never played any role at our office, Chairperson. He didn't play any role. MR SIBANYONI With whom would he meet whenever he was at Ladybrand? MR JAGGA With the Commander, I would assume, Chairperson. He would have gone to report to the Commander if he thought about doing it. Many times these people, chairperson may I just say that like Special Forces, Military Intelligence, Eugene de Kock and them, everyone went to Lesotho and no one informed us about it. Once again it's a need to know basis, so it was not only our responsibility in the area, Chairperson. MR SIBANYONI You are saying there were no joint or combined operations with de Kock's team as well as Special Forces? MR JAGGA Not during my part therein Chairperson. MR SIBANYONI Were you never debriefed about what de Kock was doing in Ladybrand? MR JAGGA Sometimes but not all of the time. MR SIBANYONI What was told to you about de Kock's presence in Ladybrand? MR JAGGA I know of the 85 incident, there I was briefed and thereafter he was there once or twice that they came to handle informers or something, or askaris of them that were in Lesotho, or something, I am not sure Chairperson, but it was not about operations that were executed by them. MR SIBANYONI In some of the Hearings where de Kock testified, he said that whenever his unit was called, was to give a back-up to the Special Branch. Did he ever give a back-up to our Special Branch, Ladybrand? MR JAGGA No, Chairperson. MR SIBANYONI Were you informed about the modus operandi conducted at Vlakplaas? MR JAGGA I later inferred Chairperson, specifically after the 85 incident. MR SIBANYONI Why was it necessary to keep a farm in Ladybrand when you had offices where you could communicate with informers? MR JAGGA The office was situated poorly Chairperson, one could not really take an informer in there without disclosing his identity, Chairperson. MR SIBANYONI Did you work with Special Forces? Did the Special Branch at Ladybrand work with Special Forces? MR JAGGA Only during meetings, but not operations, not that I am aware of, Chairperson. MR SIBANYONI Do you also confirm that Henry van der Westhuizen was at some time in Ladybrand? MR JAGGA He was there but we didn't trust him and our Commander told us not to contact him even after hours, Chairperson. MR SIBANYONI Was he not also collecting intelligence to be shared amongst the Special Branch? MR JAGGA Not with us, or not that I am aware of Chairperson. MR SIBANYONI Thank you Mr Chairperson, no further questions. MR JAGGA Thank you. ...(indistinct) MR LAX Thank you, Chair. Just on the question of the deportations. If I recall correctly, and I may be wrong, I'll concede that, but my recollection of Mr Jantjie's evidence was he didn't know anything about deportations, that can't be correct. MR JAGGA No, he must have known, Chairperson, it was general knowledge. MR LAX Yes, and just my last question and I promise, it is my last question. MR JAGGA I shall appreciate that Chairperson. MR LAX How did you prevent your informers being taken out by these other forces? MR JAGGA It was a problem, Chairperson, I mean these people had a free hand and there was no real reason, or there was no way to prevent it because if Special Forces decided on an operation in Lesotho, then it was there. If Vlakplaas decided they would go, they would just go. There was no way to really ensure the protection of your informer. MR LAX ; Well you see we know that there were co-ordination committees, we know about Trevits, we know that at that level there was clear target co-ordination. MR JAGGA Correct Chairperson, but these under-hand things they did not put on the table. MR LAX Well you see, some of the jobs in Lesotho would have been matters that Trevits would have specifically authorised. MR JAGGA Most of them would Trevits have known of. MR LAX It was the internal targets that were not authorised. That's what we know about Trevits. We have been told that from a range of sources. Do you confirm that? MR JAGGA I only know that Trevits was there Chairperson and some of these things were discussed at Trevits, but I always had the idea that not everything was placed on the table there. MR LAX But surely one of the objects of Trevits was to prevent informers being made targets? MR JAGGA That's correct. MR LAX These people who were your informers, they'd be known to people at that high level because if they came up as target files, there'd be special codes or names or whatever, that would allow them to know that. MR JAGGA We would never have placed an informer's name on the Trevits table because amongst others Hennie van der Westhuizen, we didn't trust people like them. We would never have given them an informer's name. There was no way that an informer could be protected. MR LAX But then why did you concede a short while ago that through Trevits and places like that, informers were protected? MR JAGGA No, what I meant, or I must have expressed myself incorrectly, because through Trevits, certain targets were discussed and tabled. MR LAX So there was no way you could protect your informers? MR JAGGA None whatsoever, Chairperson. MR LAX Thanks Chair. CHAIRPERSON Just two little aspects which I just want clarification. Probably it would hit on the first one. You said and it appeared in your application too, that we should incorporate the application of Jantjie in your application. Are you referring just to the written portion, not to the evidence he gave orally? MR JAGGA Correct Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON And just to know, because it would not be fair to you per se in this instance, but this Mr van der Westhuizen says he spent six months in Ladybrand Security Forces offices. Did you know about his presence there? MR JAGGA I knew that he was there, Chairperson, but he was definitely not there for six months that I can remember and he and I had nothing to do with each other during the day, or in the evening. CHAIRPERSON But could he have met other members of the Intelligence in Ladybrand? MR JAGGA Possibly, but I can only mention Chairperson that he and our Commander, at that stage Frik Fouche, could not take each other. MR LAX They couldn't stand each other. MR JAGGA They could not stand each other, that's correct, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON So he acted like a big boss around there? MR JAGGA That's correct Chairperson and he was not welcome. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Mr Visser, anything arising from what the Panel asked? MR VISSER Yes, Chairperson, there is one matter. RE-EXAMINATION BY MR VISSER You were now asked to answer many questions with regard to Vlakplaas and that is the one thing that I do not want to become involved in, but I think we need to address a few aspects here as far as your knowledge goes today from what you heard, what Mr de Kock and other Vlakplaas members testified before Amnesty Committees. Were they an Intelligence Unit, or what was the position? MR JAGGA No, they were not an Intelligence Unit, they were basically a unit that operated askaris and did all the dirty work. MR VISSER They were also described as the Executive Arm of the Security Branch to eliminate activists. MR JAGGA That is correct, Chairperson. MR VISSER Was that the type of information that you would have expected them to feed into the system? MR JAGGA Not at all, Chairperson. MR VISSER If we look back and take the incident of 19 or 20 December 1985 as an example, were any of the members of Ladybrand present during that raid? MR JAGGA No. MR VISSER Did you receive official information from wherever with regard to the raid itself and what it was about and who was involved? MR JAGGA No, Chairperson. MR VISSER Trevits, you said that it's difficult to protect informants. You also said that your understanding of Trevits was that targets that were considered were placed on the table. MR JAGGA That's correct, Chairperson, but the targets - one should actually say projects. MR VISSER But that's what I wanted to ask you. Did you sit at Trevits? MR JAGGA That's correct, Chairperson. MR VISSER And you with regard to targets, they referred to projects? MR JAGGA That's correct, Chairperson. MR VISSER I think the question that Mr Lax wanted an answer to was, is it not true that if a project was tabled at Trevits and you knew that this could touch on one or more of your informants that you there at Trevits could make alternative proposals, without disclosing the identity of your informer, in order to protect your informer? MR JAGGA That is correct, Chairperson. MR LAX Then why did you say there was no way you could protect your informants? MR JAGGA ; I beg your pardon Chairperson, I saw this in single tunnel vision. I saw this as my informer's names being disclosed and tell them: "Stay away, this is my informer." I apologise. I'm now getting tired. MR LAX We were talking about your informers being taken out, that was the whole context, it wasn't protecting their names, it was to prevent them being taken out. I made that very clear to you. MR JAGGA Correct, Chairperson. MR VISSER And just to indicate that that evidence could never be true, you also sent security reports to Head Office. MR JAGGA That's correct. MR VISSER ; And in those security reports was reference made by the Security Branches to informers by means of their registered names? MR JAGGA That's correct, Chairperson. MR VISSER Indeed, amongst yourselves, as I understand other evidence, you never referred to the names of an informer but to him as RS if it was an agent RS 375, or if it was an informer, then let us say at the Free State OV 37, or whatever the case may be? MR JAGGA That's correct, Chairperson. MR VISSER Thank you Chairperson. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VISSER CHAIRPERSON Thank you Mr Visser. Mr Malindi, anything arising from what the Panel asked? MR MALINDI Nothing Chairperson, thank you. NO QUESTIONS BY MR MALINDI CHAIRPERSON Thank you Mr Malindi. Mr Mapoma. MR MAPOMA Nothing Chairperson, thank you. NO QUESTIONS BY MR MAPOMA CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Thank you Mr Jagga, this brings us to the conclusion of your evidence. You are excused. MR JAGGA Thank you, Chairperson. WITNESS EXCUSED. CHAIRPERSON This bring us to the applications of the four, but having heard two up to today. You might have heard that I said this matter is coming up in Bloemfontein again in the week of the 13th of November to the 17th of November in Bloemfontein. I must just, for the interim, thank all those families and victims who came up from Bloemfontein and other parts of our country to have made it to Johannesburg to attend these hearings, but be informed that the conclusion will take place during the week I have just mentioned, but I must thank you for having made the effort to come here. Thank you very much. I must also thank the applicants who made it and we say, the gentleman next to you Mr Jagga is Mr Robert Shaw, thank you. I apologise that we couldn't come to your evidence, but as things stand, you will definitely testify in Bloemfontein and it would be next to home and for the victims too, it would make it easy for you. It would be next to your homes. Thank you very much. This brings us to the conclusion of this Hearing. It remains part-heard. We adjourn until the 13th of November. ...(end of tape) COMMITTEE ADJOURNS