amntrans AMNESTY HEARING 2000-10-23 JOHANNESBURG 1 NICOLAAS JOHANNES VERMEULEN AM4358/96 SWAZILAND OPERATIONS - MK BROWN AND MK GEORGE https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=54557&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/2000/201023jb.htm CHAIRPERSON Good morning. It's Monday the 23rd of October 2000, and we're here to hear the applications of, inter alia, Mr Vermeulen. I believe we'll start with that application. I'll ask the Members of the Panel to put themselves on the record. I am Chris de Jager. ADV SIGODI Advocate Sigodi. MR SIBANYONI I'm J B Sibanyoni, Member of the Committee. MR CORNELIUS Wim Cornelius, I'll be acting for the applicants, Nicolaas Johannes Vermeulen, Andries Johannes van Heerden and Lionel Snyman. Thank you, Mr Chair. MR MAPOMA Thank you, Chairman. I'm Zuko Mapoma, the Leader of Evidence for the Amnesty Committee. CHAIRPERSON Anybody appearing for the victims? Do you know whether anybody is appearing for victims in the Vermeulen matter? Let me start with that one. MR MAPOMA Not in this particular matter, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. We wish to apologise for starting late, unfortunately one of my colleagues had problems with the traffic and robots not working, but we hope that we'll continue right through until 1 o'clock at least, with the hearing now, we won't take a tea break. Mr Cornelius, could you start. MR CORNELIUS Thank you, Judge. I call Nicolaas Johannes Vermeulen. CHAIRPERSON Mr Vermeulen, will your evidence be in Afrikaans or English, or what language? MR VERMEULEN Afrikaans, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Do you swear that the evidence you will give in this matter will be the truth, the whole truth and nothing else but the truth? NICOLAAS JOHANNES VERMEULEN (sworn states) EXAMINATION BY MR CORNELIUS Thank you, Chairperson. Mr Vermeulen, you have completed an application on Form 1 in terms of Section 18 of the Act, which has been submitted to the TRC, is that correct? MR VERMEULEN That is correct, Chairperson. MR CORNELIUS During the incident that took place to which we will refer to, were you in the service of the South African Police, as defined in Section 20(2)(b) and 20(2)(f) of the Act? MR VERMEULEN That's correct, Chairperson. MR CORNELIUS You say these incidents took place in 1976, where were you then, which section of the Police? MR VERMEULEN At the Special Task Force of the South African Police, Chairperson. MR CORNELIUS And just for clarity for the Committee, I understand there has already been an application by your other comrades of the Task Force, but you were not subpoenaed to attend that. MR VERMEULEN That's correct, Chairperson. MR CORNELIUS I understand you also contacted the TRC people in Cape Town and enquired why you were not subpoenaed. MR VERMEULEN That's correct, Chairperson. MR CORNELIUS And what were you informed? MR VERMEULEN That I was not involved there, Chairperson. MR CORNELIUS I see. But you were involved there, that is why you applied? MR VERMEULEN That is correct, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON You're referring to the application of, inter alia, Brig Viktor and Wandrag and the hearing that was held here in Johannesburg, I think during the period the 3rd to the 31st of May, and I think this particular one was heard on the 7th and 8th day and I don't know whether a decision has already been publicised in this matter. I don't know whether the Evidence Leader could help us in this regard. MR MAPOMA Chairperson, I have made some enquiries from Cape Town, but unfortunately at this stage, the Evidence Analyst was still trying to find out what the outcome of that application is. CHAIRPERSON Yes I think you'll be able to find out from Mr Coetzee's office, because I believe there was a decision given in the matter of Wandrag, and the hearing was referred to as: "MK Brown and MK George Hearing". Right. Could you continue, Mr Cornelius. MR CORNELIUS Thank you, Mr Chair. You are now applying on the same merits as the Judge has referred to now, is that correct? MR VERMEULEN That is correct, Chairperson. MR CORNELIUS Your was your direct Commander? MR VERMEULEN Gen Wandrag, Chairperson. MR CORNELIUS And under whom did you serve? MR VERMEULEN Under Capt Strydom, Chairperson. MR CORNELIUS Where did this incident take place? MR VERMEULEN It was in Swaziland, Chairperson. MR CORNELIUS Close to the border post? MR VERMEULEN That is correct, Chairperson, Oshoek. MR CORNELIUS What were your instructions? What did you have to do? MR VERMEULEN My part of the operation was, as I understood it, that I would act as a backup if there were any problems, Chairperson. MR CORNELIUS I see. Were you issued with a firearm? MR VERMEULEN Yes, Chairperson. MR CORNELIUS What type of firearm? MR VERMEULEN An RPD, Chairperson. MR CORNELIUS Is this a weapon from Eastern origin? MR VERMEULEN That is correct, Chairperson. MR CORNELIUS Was that standard issue? MR VERMEULEN Yes Chairperson, for that operation, yes. MR CORNELIUS Can you briefly tell the Committee what happened at the scene. MR VERMEULEN What I can recall Chairperson, we more than once went in. I think the first time we came out because there was no-one there and the second time they called us back we went back in. MR CORNELIUS When you say you went in, you mean you went over the border? MR VERMEULEN That is correct, Chairperson. MR CORNELIUS Did you cross the border legally? MR VERMEULEN No, we crossed the border illegally. MR CORNELIUS You went in once and then came out again and then you went back in? MR VERMEULEN That's correct, Chairperson. MR CORNELIUS What happened then? MR VERMEULEN Then the vehicle arrived there. There was a shooting. I did not participate in the shooting. MR CORNELIUS How many people were there in the vehicle? MR VERMEULEN As far as my memory serves me, I think there were two persons, Chairperson. MR CORNELIUS Were those the targets? MR VERMEULEN That is correct, Chairperson. MR CORNELIUS Did everyone shoot at the vehicle? MR VERMEULEN The ambush group, yes, they fired at the vehicle. MR CORNELIUS Was this vehicle led into an ambush? MR VERMEULEN Yes, Chairperson. MR CORNELIUS You say you did not fire shots? MR VERMEULEN That's correct, Chairperson. MR CORNELIUS Were the people then killed? MR VERMEULEN Yes, the people were killed, Chairperson. MR CORNELIUS What happened then? MR VERMEULEN We withdrew and we went back over the border and we went back to Pretoria. MR CORNELIUS Did you see the vehicle exploding or being set alight? Did you see this yourself? MR VERMEULEN As far as I can recall Chairperson, I only heard about it, I was not at the scene myself. MR CORNELIUS But the vehicle burnt? MR VERMEULEN Yes, Chairperson. MR CORNELIUS And you say in your application that petrol was thrown, is this an inference you draw or did you see this personally? MR VERMEULEN I did not see them setting the vehicle alight, but I know some of the members took petrol along with them. MR CORNELIUS So you do not have any personal knowledge that the vehicle was burnt? MR VERMEULEN No, Chairperson. MR CORNELIUS You did not participate in the setting alight of the vehicle? MR VERMEULEN No, Chairperson. MR CORNELIUS Did you then move back to the Republic? MR VERMEULEN That is correct, yes. MR CORNELIUS And did you have a debriefing afterwards? MR VERMEULEN We just withdrew to Pretoria, Chairperson. MR CORNELIUS Against whom did you think you were acting? MR VERMEULEN Against the ANC soldiers, Chairperson. MR CORNELIUS I see on page 9 of your application you say "I later heard at Vlakplaas" Were you then transferred to Vlakplaas later? ...(transcriber's interpretation) MR VERMEULEN That's correct, Chairperson. MR CORNELIUS And what did you hear there? You just heard later that they were attached to the ANC. MR VERMEULEN That's correct, Chairperson. MR CORNELIUS You apply for amnesty for conspiracy to commit murder of the two persons. MR VERMEULEN That is correct, Chairperson. MR CORNELIUS Your participation therein. MR VERMEULEN That is correct, yes. MR CORNELIUS The damage to property, the vehicle. MR VERMEULEN That is correct, Chairperson. MR CORNELIUS And the illegal crossing of the country's borders. MR VERMEULEN That is correct, Chairperson. MR CORNELIUS And all delicts or offences which might flow from there. MR VERMEULEN That is correct, Chairperson. MR CORNELIUS You at all times, I assume, just carried out your orders? MR VERMEULEN That is correct, Chairperson. MR CORNELIUS Were disciplinary steps ever taken against you for your participation in this incident? MR VERMEULEN No, Chairperson. MR CORNELIUS You believed that you were acting in the interest of your country? MR VERMEULEN That is correct, Chairperson. MR CORNELIUS You did have any personal malice towards the victims? MR VERMEULEN No, I did not, Chairperson. MR CORNELIUS And you have disclosed all the facts according to your knowledge? MR VERMEULEN That is correct, Chairperson. MR VERMEULEN Did you receive any reward except for your salary? MR VERMEULEN No, Chairperson. MR CORNELIUS Thank you, Chairperson. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR CORNELIUS CHAIRPERSON Mr Cornelius, you apply for conspiracy to commit murder, but in fact people were killed, so it went further than a conspiracy, the result was in fact murder. MR CORNELIUS You're quite correct, Judge. The conspiracy and the murder itself of the two persons, because he was part and parcel of the operation. CHAIRPERSON Ja, but if he would, for instance, if we would consider it to be murder and we would give amnesty for murder, that would include the conspiracy already. MR CORNELIUS Yes, I think that is true. It's splitting of hairs to add the conspiracy. I agree, Judge. Thank you. CHAIRPERSON Who gave you the order to act in this matter? MR VERMEULEN The initial order came from Capt Strydom, that was ... CHAIRPERSON Was he the operational Commander? MR VERMEULEN That's correct, Mr Chair. CHAIRPERSON But in charge of the whole operation? MR VERMEULEN Gen Wandrag. CHAIRPERSON Did Gen Wandrag enter Swaziland, or what was the position? MR VERMEULEN No, he didn't enter Swaziland, Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON So he stayed at the border and Strydom and the other people went into Swaziland? MR VERMEULEN That's correct, Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON Can you remember who accompanied you into Swaziland? MR VERMEULEN It's difficult to recall all the people, but I know for a fact it was Capt Strydom, I think there was a Capt Fourie and the other people are very vague to me, Mr Chair. CHAIRPERSON How many people went across the border, approximately? MR VERMEULEN I think there were about 10 people, Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON How long have you been a member of the Task Force? MR VERMEULEN I was - as it started, I was a member, in '75, Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON And you stayed in the Task Force up to when? MR VERMEULEN Till '85, Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON Were there any other policemen present as far as you can remember? MR VERMEULEN The only other one that was not from our unit was Mr Viktor, I think at that time he was in charge of the Security Branch, Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON Did he go into Swaziland, or did he also remain at the border? MR VERMEULEN He also remained at the border, Mr Chairman. CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MAPOMA How did you know that you were going to meet with these MK soldiers? MR VERMEULEN We received the message from Mr Strydom that we had to cross the border, Mr Chairman. MR MAPOMA Yes, what I want to find out is, you as the Task Force, how did you happen to know as the Task Force, that there are MK operatives who can be met at that point where you met them? MR VERMEULEN I think that information must have come from Mr Viktor and that went to Gen Wandrag and then from Wandrag to Strydom and then to us, Mr Chairman. MR MAPOMA You are not aware as to whether that information came from the MK ranks at all? MR VERMEULEN No, Mr Chairman. MR MAPOMA You are not aware whether there was an informer from MK who was involved in giving this information to the Task Force? MR VERMEULEN No, Mr Chairman. MR MAPOMA You see I'm asking this question because there is a statement which was made in the Human Rights Violations Committee, which suggested that a certain Victor, who was an askari, gave information to the South African Police about the car that was going to travel there. MR VERMEULEN That could have been so Mr Chairman, but at that stage we were uniformed branch people, just working on instructions, so we wouldn't have been involved with the collection of any information, Mr Chairman. MR MAPOMA Thank you. Thank you Chairperson, no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MAPOMA CHAIRPERSON Anybody appearing for the victims in this matter? No. MR SIBANYONI Mr Vermeulen, do you still recall who amongst your members was having petrol? MR VERMEULEN It is difficult to recall that Mr Chairman, because the first time we went in some people might have carried it, it is very difficult to say specifically some person carried the petrol, but I must say, I think it would have been the people that was involved in the shooting of the car. MR SIBANYONI If you can still recall, was the team consisting of only white members, or were there both white and black members of the Special Forces? MR VERMEULEN That was only white members, Mr Chairman. MR SIBANYONI Thank you Mr Chairperson, no further questions. ADV SIGODI The route that you took into Swaziland, you say you crossed the border illegally? MR VERMEULEN That's correct, Mr Chairman. ADV SIGODI And did you come back illegally at all the times that you went in and out of Swaziland? MR VERMEULEN That correct, Mr Chairman. ADV SIGODI Did you have passports just in case you were caught? MR VERMEULEN No, Mr Chairman. ADV SIGODI And where did you cross this border? MR VERMEULEN It must have been nearby Oshoek, because we went down to Oshoek. ADV SIGODI And was there a road there, or how did you cross it, how did you get across and how did you get back across the border? MR VERMEULEN We walked in from wherever. I can't remember if we started from a certain spot. What I can remember is we got off the vehicles and then we walked and we crossed the fence. ADV SIGODI And was there a car waiting for your on the other side? MR VERMEULEN No, Mr Chairman. ADV SIGODI And how did you get to the place where the victims were? MR VERMEULEN It wasn't very far to walk, it was about two or three kilometres that we had to walk in, Mr Chairman. ADV SIGODI And you came back on foot as well? MR VERMEULEN That's correct, Mr Chairman. ADV SIGODI Okay. Thank you, Chairperson. MR SIBANYONI Just one, Chairperson. Mr Vermeulen, are you also known as Snor Vermeulen? MR VERMEULEN That's correct, Mr Chairman. MR SIBANYONI Okay, thank you. CHAIRPERSON Were tracers also fired? MR VERMEULEN Not as far as I know Mr Chairman, I don't think so, no. CHAIRPERSON Mr Vermeulen, according to the previous evidence, Viktor was in fact, General or Brig Viktor was in fact at the border, also Brig Wandrag, Strydom and I think Visser, two Visser members, Schalk Visser from Middelburg Security Police and another Visser. I think he was stationed somewhere on the Eastern Rand or somewhere. Can you remember then? MR VERMEULEN Now that you mention Mr Visser, yes Mr Chairman, I can recall that very vaguely, because I hadn't had any chance to refresh my memory with any of the other people that were present there, Mr Chair. But if, I would say Mr Visser from Middelburg, ja he could have also been there, 'cause that was their area that they worked. CHAIRPERSON Just for the record, the Task Force wasn't a Force involved in the Security sector of the Police? MR VERMEULEN No, Mr Chairman, in the beginning it was and when Gen Wandrag took over we were sent back to the Uniform Branch, Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON And what kind of work did you do in fact? MR VERMEULEN At that stage we were mostly training people and I think that was one of our first operations or task that was given to us. It might be the second one, I'm not sure Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON The Task Force, as far as the evidence we had previously, was in fact a Force used for emergency cases such as the Silverton Bank Robbery, for instance. MR VERMEULEN That's correct. CHAIRPERSON Where hostages were taken. You were involved there and I think, earlier on even when the hostage was taken here in Johannesburg, this Riley hostage. MR VERMEULEN That's correct, Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON Ja. Any further questions? MR MAPOMA Nothing, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Is he only applying for this one incident? MR CORNELIUS ; It's only for this one incident according to my instructions. CHAIRPERSON The Chesterville incident has already been heard? MR CORNELIUS That's been finalised, Mr Chair. CHAIRPERSON Ja. Are there any other outstanding matters where Mr Vermeulen is involved in? MR CORNELIUS There might only be one matter which is the Supply of Weapons to Inkatha, but I understand from the TRC that has not been enrolled, or ... CHAIRPERSON Well I don't know, isn't Mr van Heerden applying for that? MR CORNELIUS I think most of my applicants will be applying for that, but that will be one of the things I will address in the letter to your good self. CHAIRPERSON So that's not on the role for this hearing? MR CORNELIUS It's not on the role for this hearing, Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON Okay, thank you Mr Vermeulen, you are excused. WITNESS EXCUSED MR CORNELIUS I have no further witnesses and that is the case for the applicant. Thank you, Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON Any other witnesses to be called? MR MAPOMA There are no other witnesses, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Right. We'll reserve judgment and give a decision as soon as we can manage to do so. MACHINE SWITCHED OFF ON RESUMPTION CHAIRPERSON Perhaps I should give you the opportunity to address us. MR CORNELIUS ADDRESSES Thank you, Mr Sibanyoni. I'll be very brief. It's my submission that the application complies with the necessary statutory provisos in terms of Section 18 of the Act. It is my submission that my applicant made a full disclosure to all the facts within his knowledge. It is clear that he had an instruction which came from high up in the Police Force. He carried out his instructions and he was at all times acting with a political motive, in that he was acting against so-called enemy of the government of the time. And it is clear that there were no disciplinary actions taken against him at any time and he wasn't paid any remuneration or bonus for his acts. So it's my submission that he fully qualifies to be granted amnesty. Thank you, Mr Chair. Thank you, Mr Sibanyoni. CHAIRPERSON Mr Mapoma? MR MAPOMA I have no submissions to make Chairperson, in this particular incident. NO SUBMISSIONS BY MR MAPOMA MR MAPOMA But Chairperson, having said so, I'm just looking at this application, I understand the Act of Supply of Weapons to the IFP is a chamber matter and it is my view, Chairperson, that if perhaps the Committee would hear evidence in as far as that is concerned, that would assist in expediting that incident as well, because now we have to write a request for further particulars to the applicant and then he has to write back in response thereto, but if now the evidence can be led and be heard now, perhaps that can be saved, time can be saved on that. CHAIRPERSON Mr Cornelius, what would your point of view be? MR CORNELIUS I would have loved to have assisted the Evidence Leader in this respect, but the problem is you would note, as far as Vermeulen is concerned, it's not bound into this application, so I didn't consult on it, so I didn't prepare anything on it. As far as the other applicants are also concerned, I felt and I understood that this would not be heard at this hearing, so I did not prepare. But what I do suggest, if there's any particulars that my learned colleague would want, I'd gladly supply it. CHAIRPERSON Could you perhaps consider it during lunchtime and if there's time, whether you could consult and see whether we could dispose of that as well? MR CORNELIUS I'm prepared to do that, Mr Chairman, thank you. CHAIRPERSON Right. Okay then this could stand down and we'll consider it after lunch, whether we'll be able to hear the Supply of Weapons application, and could you then proceed with the next applicant. MR CORNELIUS Thank you, Mr Chair. I wish to call Daniel Lionel Snyman.