amntrans AMNESTY HEARINGS 2000-10-23 JOHANNESBURG 1 DANIEL LIONEL SNYMAN AM3765/96 PLANTING OF HANDGRENADE IN VEHICLE OF MKs https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=54558&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/2000/201023jb.htm DANIEL LIONEL SNYMAN (sworn states) EXAMINATION BY MR CORNELIUS Thank you, Mr Chair. I think for your own convenience, I see your application has been drawn up in Afrikaans, would you then prefer to give your evidence in Afrikaans? MR SNYMAN Yes, please. Thank you. MR CORNELIUS Your application is reflected from page 12 of the documents and then on page 17 you give your full background and training in the Police Services, is that correct? MR SNYMAN That is correct. MR CORNELIUS Do you confirm the contents from page 17, 18, 19, 20 and 21, insofar as it has regard to your background and your Police career? MR SNYMAN That is correct, Chairperson. MR CORNELIUS At the time of the shooting incident in Smit Street in approximately 1990, where were you stationed? MR SNYMAN At that stage I was stationed at Vlakplaas, Chairperson. MR CORNELIUS What was your rank? MR SNYMAN I was a Warrant Officer. MR CORNELIUS And if you refer to Vlakplaas, you refer to Vlakplaas ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON Could you go a little bit slower please, I think we've got problems in translating and taking down the evidence. MR CORNELIUS Thank you, Judge, I apologise. If you refer to Vlakplaas, do you refer to Vlakplaas as the Vlakplaas that has been submitted to the Commission in documents? MR SNYMAN That is correct. MR CORNELIUS And we all know that it had functioned and sometimes you performed general services right through the country. MR SNYMAN That is correct. MR CORNELIUS During this incident in Smit Street ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON I think you're still going a bit fast, because the Translators they've got to wait for you to finish and then translate and then we can take it down. MR CORNELIUS I will slow down. Thank you, Judge. During this incident in Smit Street, is this when you were rendering general services in the Police Force? MR SNYMAN That is correct, Chairperson. MR CORNELIUS Who was your Commander during this incident? MR SNYMAN At that stage it was Capt Klopper who was in command of our group, who worked in the Johannesburg area. MR CORNELIUS You obtained information from a so-called askari, is that correct? MR SNYMAN That is correct. MR CORNELIUS It was reasonably late in the night. I cannot say whether it was an askari or whether it was an SAP member, but it was one of the black members who was attached to the group that was working there. MR CORNELIUS And what was that information? MR SNYMAN They had information that there was an MK who would hand over firearms to an askari who had contacted them in the Smit Street area. MR CORNELIUS Did you then receive any instruction to participate in an operation? MR SNYMAN At that stage the blacks were still busy in Johannesburg. I was on my way back to Krugersdorp and I ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON Mr Snyman, please go somewhat slower, we are going through three phases and it has to be interpreted and then it has to be interpreted to us and we have to write down. You received information from a member of the Force, a black member, that there was an MK that would hand over weapons? MR SNYMAN That is correct. CHAIRPERSON Yes. MR SNYMAN The members, the askaris and the police then went to the specific point where they would meet the MK member to receive the weapons from him and where they would then arrest him. MR CORNELIUS How many motor vehicles were there at the scene? MR SNYMAN Motor vehicles, it was myself, I stopped a distance away from them, because it wouldn't be right if they saw a white person sitting the vehicles, waiting there. There was the vehicle that the black members were in and then there was one or two vehicles, I'm not sure if there were more vehicles of the MK members. MR CORNELIUS Could you see the vehicle in which the askaris were sitting in? MR SNYMAN No, I could not see it. MR CORNELIUS While you were sitting in the vehicle, what happened? MR SNYMAN While I was sitting in my vehicle a woman crossed the road in front of my vehicle and she was approached by four blacks who grabbed her handbag and robbed her. This incident had not happened in Smit Street, it was in Quartz Street, quite close to the next corner. MR CORNELIUS What did you do then? MR SNYMAN When they robbed her I got out of my vehicle, I tried to apprehend them, I fired shots and I wounded two of these robbers. I managed to arrest one of them and this one was being loaded into the ambulance. CHAIRPERSON The one that you arrested, or the other one? MR SNYMAN No, it was two that I shot at. I know that I wounded the one and he got away, the other one that I wounded I found him hiding just around the corner. I can't remember which street it was, but it was a block away from Smit Street. MR CORNELIUS What did you do then? MR SNYMAN While this person was being loaded into the ambulance a shooting started and took place in Smit Street, between the black members, askaris and the MK members. MR CORNELIUS Could you see it, or could you hear it? MR SNYMAN I could only hear it, I did not see anything of it taking place. MR CORNELIUS The initial planning, was that to shoot the MK members, or to shoot them? MR SNYMAN It was to arrest them. MR CORNELIUS What happened then? MR SNYMAN I ran up to Smit Street. At Smit Street I saw that one of our black members was wounded, two MK members were wounded and there were about six civilians, I think, that were also injured at some stage or other. I don't know who did the shooting at all. MR CORNELIUS What did you do then? MR SNYMAN The investigating department of the Security Branch of Johannesburg was called out and they took over the scene for further investigation. When I arrived at the scene where the shooting had taken place, I just briefly looked into the vehicle that was supposed to have been the MK's vehicle. I couldn't find any weapons, or did not see any weapons in the vehicle at that time. Due the fact that Chappies Klopper had given me a handgrenade to keep for in case the black members would get into some or other trouble at some stage or other, I gave this grenade to one of the black members to put in the vehicle in case there would be a problem due to their actions that had taken place. MR CORNELIUS So what you're saying is that you were fearful that they wouldn't find any weapons in the cars? MR SNYMAN That is correct, Mr Chairman. MR CORNELIUS So you supplied this handgrenade to plant in the vehicle? MR SNYMAN That is correct. MR CORNELIUS Was it an East-bloc handgrenade? What type of handgrenade, can you remember? MR SNYMAN It was an Eastern-bloc handgrenade, but exactly which type I cannot remember. MR CORNELIUS What happened then? MR SNYMAN The people from Johannesburg Security Branch took over the scene, they did the investigation further and apparently during the searching of the vehicle they did find other weapons of Eastern-bloc, of the MK members, which were also in that vehicle, under which the handgrenade was also there. But I don't even know ... MR CORNELIUS But you don't know? MR SNYMAN I didn't know whether it was the specific grenade which I handed to the black members. MR CORNELIUS So there were weapons found? MR SNYMAN There were weapons found. Except for the possible grenade that may have been placed there, other weapons were also found in the vehicle. MR CORNELIUS Do you have any knowledge of what happened further with this particular investigation? MR SNYMAN I did not hear anything further about this investigation, as it was taken over by Johannesburg branch. MR CORNELIUS And the wounded MK members, what happened to them? MR SNYMAN Everybody that was injured was attended to by an ambulance service and taken to hospitals. And that, I think was arranged by Johannesburg Security Branch as well. MR CORNELIUS I see. CHAIRPERSON What time of the day did this incident occur? MR SNYMAN It was midnight, Mr Chairman. MR CORNELIUS Did you act under the instructions of Klopper? MR SNYMAN Yes, the instructions which I acted on from Mr Klopper was that he gave me the grenade in case there would any incidents, to justify any actions that may have caused some problems. MR CORNELIUS Was Klopper at that time with Vlakplaas? MR SNYMAN Klopper at that time was with Vlakplaas and as I said, he was in charge of the group that was working in Johannesburg. CHAIRPERSON And was his instructions in fact to plant this handgrenade in the vehicle, or was it given to you for another purpose? MR SNYMAN It was given to me for the purpose of doing a cover-up should any of the black members end up in a problem, not specifically for this case, but it was possible as it did happen sometimes that they sometimes overreacted, especially in townships and so on. But the grenade was given to me specifically for the use of covering up if something had gone wrong anywhere. CHAIRPERSON So this wasn't a specific instruction, it was sort of a general instruction which you had to carry out whenever there should be a cover-up of some kind or other? MR SNYMAN That is correct, Mr Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON So it was in fact policy of the Vlakplaas people, at that stage, to create such cover-ups? MR SNYMAN To create a cover-up should there be any problems that, well especially that the askaris would be involved in. MR CORNELIUS And you would agree, that would seriously obstruct the normal course of justice, because people would then be arrested that normally would not have been arrested? MR SNYMAN That could be, Sir. MR CORNELIUS You have disclosed all the facts that you have available to yourself regarding this specific incident? MR SNYMAN That's correct, Sir. MR CORNELIUS And you apply that the Amnesty Committee grants you amnesty for obstructing the course of justice by supplying and planting this handgrenade? MR SNYMAN That is correct. MR CORNELIUS The specific askari that you gave the handgrenade to, was he under your command? Did he have to carry out your instructions? MR SNYMAN Yes, I don't know whether it was an askari or whether it was a black SAP member himself, but they would have been under my command at that time if Chappies Klopper had not been there. MR CORNELIUS And you knew that the people that you were acting against, did you feel they were enemies of the country at that time? MR SNYMAN Yes, they were, because I later found out that these specific persons from the MK members were supposed to have left the country the previous day already, because they were from the people that were apparently allowed amnesty into the country, to come and sort out some or other problems and so on. But their time of amnesty that they were granted had already expired as well. MR CORNELIUS But prior to acting, did you believe you were acting against the enemy of the so-called State at that time? MR SNYMAN That is correct, because that was the information I received. CHAIRPERSON What was the date? MR SNYMAN I have got no idea what the date was, Mr Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Yes, but round about, was it in the '80s, in the '90s? MR SNYMAN I think it was in the early '90s, or during '90.., perhaps in the year '90 or so. MR CORNELIUS Mr Chair, on page 22 we indicated approximately 1990. Thank you, Chair. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR CORNELIUS MR SIBANYONI I think what you are referring to was the indemnity and not amnesty which was given to people to come and make negotiations. MR SNYMAN That's correct, Mr Chairperson. MR SIBANYONI Thank you. CHAIRPERSON Mr Mapoma. CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MAPOMA Thank you, Chairperson. Now this askari who was supposed to be given weapons by these MK cadres, was he from Vlakplaas as well? MR SNYMAN Yes, all the askaris and black members were all from Vlakplaas. MR MAPOMA Yes. What was his name? MR SNYMAN I think the one - I cannot remember any of the people's names, the only person's name that I can remember was Tebogo, because that was the one that was wounded at that time. MR MAPOMA Now when you arrived at the incident after the shooting had taken place, you must have asked from your operatives what exactly happened. Didn't you ask? MR SNYMAN Yes, I asked them what happened and what was going on, how did it happen and they explained to me that the persons involved with the handing over of the weapons from the MK's side to the specific askari that would have taken possession of the weapons, apparently a shooting started. I cannot remember exactly how it happened. As I can recall, I think they started to run away, the Vlakplaas people started shooting, the other people returned fire and in the process the people were wounded there. At that time I then had a look in the car to see whether there were any weapons in this vehicle which they said was the vehicle of the MK members. MR MAPOMA Will you be in a position to dispute the suggestion that those MK cadres were trapped, so that they can be shot by your unit? MR SNYMAN No, I don't think they have done that because they specifically wanted to arrest the people to find more weapons. MR MAPOMA Now you say this grenade that you had, you gave it to somebody to place it in the motor vehicle. MR SNYMAN That is correct. MR CORNELIUS Why did you not place it yourself? MR SNYMAN Because I was not involved, I should not have been there at the scene at that moment because there were too many people standing around there and it was the black people that were, the group under me, they were involved in it and I just told that specific person: "Here's the grenade, if you have any problems use it". MR MAPOMA And who is that person that you gave that grenade to? MR SNYMAN As I say, I cannot remember who it was. The only person's name that I can remember on the scene was Tebogo, because he was the person that was wounded that night. I cannot remember any of the other members that were present. Thinking about it now, there was one bloke by the name of Andries, I think he was a policeman, but he was with me at the scene where they were loading the wounded robber. MR MAPOMA Thank you Chairperson, I have no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MAPOMA CHAIRPERSON We had two shooting incidents, two different ones, you were shooting at the robbers, is that correct? MR SNYMAN That is correct. The incident of shooting the robbers took place, I think in Quartz Street, about a block away from Smit Street. While I was still attending to the shooting incident where I had shot the robbers, the shooting incident in Smit Street between the members of Vlakplaas and the MK members took place. CHAIRPERSON So your shooting took place before the other shooting? MR SNYMAN That is correct, it was completely two separate incidents. CHAIRPERSON Didn't your shooting cause the other shooting? MR SNYMAN No, it was - as I said, the ambulance had already arrived ... as a matter of fact, when my shooting took place I thought oh, well the operation isn't going to take place now, where the weapons would be handed over by the MKs to the askaris, but apparently at that time these people were still in a night-club somewhere there, so it apparently had no effect on the plans of the Vlakplaas, black Vlakplaas members, on their operation which they were busy with. CHAIRPERSON So was there quite an interval between the two shootings? MR SNYMAN I would say it must have been at least about 10 minutes or 15 minutes or so. As I say, the local police uniform branch had already arrived to investigate or to come and attend to my shooting incident of the robbers and during that time when the police were there, the ambulance had already arrived, we were busy loading the robber that we had arrested into the ambulance when the other shooting only took place. Well it sounds funny, but while we were still busy in the Smit Street in the shooting taking place between the askaris and the MK members, another shooting took place in Smit Street about two blocks further as well, which had nothing to do with us. CHAIRPERSON So people weren't perturbed by the shooting? MR SNYMAN Apparently they're not worried about it. CHAIRPERSON Because I find it strange that the MK soldiers would come into an area where they could see the police, they heard shooting or might have heard the shooting, and still continue with negotiations about the weapons. MR SNYMAN As I say, the time lapse must have been that when my shooting took place these people were apparently still in a night-club and they only came out later. They could also not have seen where we were busy because it was around the corner and almost a block away where we were busy loading the injured into the ambulance. MR SIBANYONI So your application for amnesty is in respect of? MR SNYMAN The handing over of the grenade. CHAIRPERSON You're only applying for defeating the ends of justice? MR SNYMAN That is correct, Mr Chairperson. ADV SIGODI Do you have knowledge who the MK soldiers who were wounded were, the names? MR SNYMAN I've got no idea, I cannot remember who they were. As I said, I was at that scene there and then the Johannesburg Security Branch took over the investigations further. ADV SIGODI Do you know who was responsible at the Johannesburg Security Branch to take over? MR SNYMAN Sorry? ADV SIGODI Who was responsible at the Johannesburg Security Branch who took over? MR SNYMAN I could not - I have at two or three times tried to find out, but I can't. I can't remember who it was and I did try and assist the investigators to try and get further, but I cannot remember. I don't know the person that took over the investigation either, from Johannesburg. CHAIRPERSON This wasn't an incident also known as the Gogh Street incident? MR SNYMAN No, no. CHAIRPERSON Was that different one. Thank you. Any further questions? Any re-examination? NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR CORNELIUS MR MAPOMA No further questions. CHAIRPERSON Any further witnesses? MR CORNELIUS No further witnesses, that concludes the case for the applicant, Mr Chair. MR MAPOMA There are no witnesses, Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON Could you address us then? MR CORNELIUS ADDRESSES Mr Chair, it's my submission that the applicant's application complies with Section 18 of Act 34/95. It is further my submission that the applicant is an applicant as envisaged in Section 20(2)(b) and 20(2)(f) of the Act. It is furthermore common cause how the operations of Vlakplaas did function, that they did general services and general apprehension of criminals, this type of thing, which was his duty at that time. It is clear that he definitely did obstruct the course of justice in supplying the handgrenade, in that it would, if he was successful, it would have resulted in that the people would have been arrested for being in illegal possession of this East-bloc handgrenade. It is clear that the handgrenade was supplied to him for this type of action and as we have heard in the past in previous applications heard before this Committee, it was in fact done on a regular basis, that weapons and guns and AKs were placed in vehicles to effect an arrest if they made a hit and there were no weapons in the specific motor vehicle. There was no disciplinary action taken against him. It is my submission that he made a full disclosure and that he would be entitled to be granted amnesty for obstructing the course of justice in this specific matter. Thank you, Mr Chair. CHAIRPERSON Mr Mapoma. MR MAPOMA I've no submissions Chairperson, thank you. NO SUBMISSIONS BY MR MAPOMA CHAIRPERSON Thank you. We'll reserve judgment. The applicant may be excused. MR CORNELIUS Thank you, Mr Chair. WITNESS EXCUSED CHAIRPERSON ... applicant, any outstanding applications still? MR CORNELIUS That is what we're discussing at the moment as a matter of fact. There's only various other wide blanket incidents indicated in this application regarding shootings in townships, but there are no victims, there's no indication of where, what, when, names, so I think it's futile to proceed with this application on that basis. There is a sort of blanket clause added in at the end of his amnesty application, which has now been added in here. CHAIRPERSON We can't grant a general amnesty. Unless he's in a position to give us particulars as to a date or an incident or names of victims, we won't be able to grant a blanket amnesty. MR CORNELIUS No, I agree with you, Mr Chair. May I just take instructions on one aspect here Mr Chair, thank you.