amntrans AMNESTY HEARINGS 2000-10-25 JOHANNESBURG 2 PHUMAYAKHE MOSI MYAKA AM4440/96 https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=54562&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/2000/201024jb.htm CHAIRPERSON We'll then proceed with the application of Mr Myaka and Mr Mhlongo, applications numbers 4440/96 and 4449 of 1996. Mr van der Heyde, you're appearing for the applicants and Mr Mapoma you're still the evidence leader. Are there any appearances for the victims? MR MAPOMA There are no appearances for the victims Chairperson, but the notice was served to the owner of the bottle store and the indication from him was that he is not willing to come to attend the hearing, but he expressed a view that he regards that as a pure criminal act, but he - that's what he says. CHAIRPERSON Right. Could you proceed Mr van der Heyde? MR VAN DER HEYDE Mr Chairperson, may my client be sworn in? CHAIRPERSON Yes. PHUMAYAKHE MOSI MYAKA (sworn states) EXAMINATION BY MR VAN DER HEYDE Mr Myaka, are you a follower of the Inkatha Freedom Party? MR MYAKA Yes. MR MYAKA During the period preceding the 1994 elections, were you staying at the Meadowlands Hostel in Soweto? MR MYAKA That is correct. MR VAN DER HEYDE Who was your Induna at this hostel? MR MYAKA Msomi was the Chief Induna. MR VAN DER HEYDE Did you as a person who was staying in the hostel, have to listen to each command that he gave to you? MR MYAKA Correct. MR VAN DER HEYDE Now before the elections, I think it is a given fact that there was a lot of violence going on between the ANC and the Inkatha Freedom Party, is that correct? MR MYAKA That is correct. MR VAN DER HEYDE And it is a fact that you were attacking and defending yourselves on a quite regular basis between the IFP and the ANC? MR MYAKA That is correct. MR VAN DER HEYDE And is the fact that your hostel, during that period, was attacked by the ANC? MR MYAKA That is correct. MR VAN DER HEYDE Did you at a certain stage before the 94 elections ... INTERPRETER May you please continue? MR VAN DER HEYDE Did you at a certain stage before the 94 elections receive instructions from Induna Msomi to go and rob a liquor store? MR MAPOMA No, no, Chairperson, I must object at this stage. This is a ...(indistinct) of the matter, so to speak and this question is leading, that's what I'm saying. CHAIRPERSON Ja. Mr van der Heyde, it's contested that this had anything to do with politics and I think it would also be contested that he in fact acted on instructions, so please refrain from asking leading questions. Allow the witness to tell us what happened and why he did it. MR VAN DER HEYDE I will continue on such basis. During the period of 94, you robbed a liquor store, is that correct? MR MYAKA That is correct. MR VAN DER HEYDE Can you tell the Committee why you did that? MR MYAKA Yes, I can explain. MR VAN DER HEYDE Please continue. MR MYAKA The reason for the robbery was because we were short of money, now that the 1994 election was underway, we did not have enough arms and ammunition and we didn't know what was going to happen during the elections, so that Mr Msomi then came up with a suggestion that for us to get some money to purchase firearms, he then instructed me and Mr Mhlongo and Mr Mkwanazi and Mr Shelembe to go and rob a bottle store at Denver. CHAIRPERSON ... he instructed you and Mr who? MR MYAKA Mr Mhlongo. CHAIRPERSON Mr Mhlongo and who else? MR MYAKA Mr Shelembe. CHAIRPERSON Yes. MR MYAKA And Mr Mkwanazi. CHAIRPERSON Yes, the four of you? Were there four of you involved? MR MYAKA Yes, there were four of us. CHAIRPERSON Now before you proceed, what happened to Mr Shelembe and Mr Mkwanazi? Were they also arrested or not? MR MYAKA Mr Shelembe was fatally shot but a Security Guard. CHAIRPERSON So Mr Shelembe was killed during this robbery, is that correct? MR MYAKA Yes that was a time when we were leaving the bottle store. CHAIRPERSON Ja and what happened to Mr Mkwanazi? MR MYAKA He disappeared on our way, as we were fleeing. I don't know where he disappeared to. CHAIRPERSON You haven't seen him since? MR MYAKA Never ever. CHAIRPERSON And could you help us with Mr Msomi, what happened to him? MR MYAKA I saw him last when I was out on bail. MR VAN DER HEYDE Mr Chairperson, if I may intervene here. Mr Msomi is still an Induna of the Meadowlands Hostel. CHAIRPERSON He's still an Induna at Meadowlands? MR VAN DER HEYDE Yes. CHAIRPERSON Does he know about this hearing? MR VAN DER HEYDE Yes, he does. CHAIRPERSON He's been notified that he will be implicated? MR VAN DER HEYDE Yes. CHAIRPERSON And he didn't make any attempt to attend, or... MR VAN DER HEYDE No he refused to give any comment. CHAIRPERSON Mr Mapoma, do you know whether he's been notified by the TRC? MR MAPOMA Chairperson, just bear with me. Chairperson we did not manage to get him personally, but what we did we sent a notice through Mr Abraham Zizi who used to assist the TRC in locating the IFP personnel and then he took it upon himself to serve him with the notice. CHAIRPERSON Well you tried to notify him. You've notified the representative of the IFP dealing with amnesty applications and we've got the statement from Mr van der Heyde representing the members here, that Mr Msomi knows about this and he informed you that he wouldn't like to attend. MR VAN DER HEYDE Yes, Mr Chairperson, that's in fact precisely that. I also notified the IFP Regional Offices in Johannesburg about the amnesty application of these two people and they have not responded as well. CHAIRPERSON So they didn't respond, but Mr Msomi, did he respond to you, or ... MR VAN DER HEYDE I specifically notified Mr Msomi about this and he did not bother to get in contact. CHAIRPERSON Ja, Mr van der Heyde, I just want to have it clear in my own mind. Did you speak to him? Did you write a letter to him? What was his response? No response, or did he in fact get in touch with you and give you certain information? MR VAN DER HEYDE Mr Chairperson, I spoke to him by telephone. CHAIRPERSON I see. Okay, thank you. MR VAN DER HEYDE Now, Mr Myaka, can you just tell me, Mr Shelembe, Mhlongo and Mkwanazi, were they also staying at the Meadowlands Hostel during that time? MR MYAKA Mr Mhlongo and Mr Shelembe resided at the hostel yes, but Mr Mkwanazi is one person that I'm not sure of. I only came to know him when I came back from home, that's when we received the instruction to the fact that we had to go and rob. MR VAN DER HEYDE Now did you plan this robbery beforehand? MR MYAKA Yes, we did after we had received the instructions, we had to put our heads together. MR VAN DER HEYDE Now, who was attending that planning of the robbery? MR MYAKA Mr Msomi and Mr Shwala as well as Mr Ngema and us, the people who were to carry out the robbery. MR VAN DER HEYDE Can you tell the Committee who Mr Shwala and Mr Ngema are? MR MYAKA His name is Botha Shwala, Ngema is Konondo Ngema. CHAIRPERSON Now what positions did they have in the IFP or at the hostel, or where did you come to know them? MR MYAKA Shwala was the leader, or the Induna of the boys. Mr Ngema was his deputy. MR VAN DER HEYDE Who told you to go and specifically go and rob - how did it come that you decided on robbing this liquor store? MR MYAKA As I have explained, I had been at home for about two weeks and when I came back Mr Msomi had this information about the bottle store and I could not see him, though I went to the bottle store myself, Mr Mkwanazi and Mr Themba, Themba Shelembe that is. MR VAN DER HEYDE Can you tell us how did it come that you ...(indistinct), what happened on the specific day of robbing the store? Will you start telling us about that? MR MYAKA About the bottle store? MR VAN DER HEYDE Yes. How many people were there that were going to rob the store that day? How many people were you? MR MYAKA There were four of us. MR VAN DER HEYDE Four. And who were they again? It was you and? MR MYAKA Myself, Mr Mhlongo, Mr Shelembe and Mr Mkwanazi. MR VAN DER HEYDE Okay. At what time did you go to the store? MR MYAKA In the morning. We got there before it was opened and we waited at the next street. We waited for something that could have been about fifteen minutes, then once they were at the door, we came. MR VAN DER HEYDE Alright. When they opened the door, did you then enter the shop? CHAIRPERSON Ja. Could you tell us in your own words now what happened from there on? You've waited, you've heard them coming and now they've opened and you're there. What happened next? MR MYAKA When we came back for the second time, they were opening and we approached them and two of them got inside and one of them remained outside, opening the grilles at the windows and we pretended to be buying liquor until the one who was still outside came in and when he came in, that's when we drew our firearms and we held them. MR VAN DER HEYDE What did you request of them? MR MYAKA We wanted money. MR VAN DER HEYDE And did they give you the money? MR MYAKA Yes, they showed us the money in a safe which they opened on instruction. MR VAN DER HEYDE And after you took the money, what did you do with the people that were in the shop, that were attending the shop? MR MYAKA We put them in a storeroom full of cases and we said Mr Mkwanazi should leave with the bag full of money. MR VAN DER HEYDE And what happened then? MR MYAKA And as we were closing the door behind them in the storeroom, they apparently left through a back door that was hidden by a curtain which we did not notice. MR VAN DER HEYDE And then, what happened then with you? What did you do then next? MR MYAKA We were still inside, actually when they fled through the back door and apparently they came across Mkwanazi outside who came running to inform us that these people had fled. MR VAN DER HEYDE So how many of you were then at that stage still inside this shop? Was it just Mr Mkwanazi that was outside the shop at that stage? MR MYAKA There were two of us inside the shop and Mr Mhlongo was standing at the door. MR VAN DER HEYDE And who had the money with him at that stage, was it still Mr Mkwanazi? MR MYAKA Will you please repeat that. MR VAN DER HEYDE Who had the money that they had stolen, at that stage? MR MYAKA Mr Mkwanazi. MR VAN DER HEYDE What happened then? MR MYAKA On leaving, these white people were now close to the security people. We attempted to shoot, but my firearm failed. MR VAN DER HEYDE And did they shoot at you then, the security people? MR MYAKA Yes, that's when the exchange of gunfire started. MR VAN DER HEYDE What did you do? They were shooting upon you now, what did you do? MR MYAKA I tried to bridge my firearm. I kept trying to bridge my firearm. I couldn't, until Mr Mhlongo managed to fire. MR VAN DER HEYDE So you did not fire then? MR MYAKA Yes, my firearm jammed. MR VAN DER HEYDE And then what did you do after that? MR MYAKA There was now traffic all over and the traffic lights were red. I turned around the corner and tried to fix my firearm. That was at the time when Themba Shelembe got shot, whilst he was in possession of the money. CHAIRPERSON Were you travelling in a car or where you pedestrians? MR MYAKA We were travelling by taxi. CHAIRPERSON So at this stage, you say, there was traffic all over. Did you get into a taxi to escape, or what happened? MR MYAKA I am talking about the street on which we were, that's where the traffic was. There were no taxis there that we could ride. CHAIRPERSON So you were running at that stage, or walking in any event. MR MYAKA We did not have time to run because when we got out of the building, the shooting had just started. We only started running later. CHAIRPERSON And did you manage to escape or did they arrest you there on the scene? MR MYAKA We did not succeed. You see, I was wearing red clothes. When the police came, they were told that one of them is wearing red clothes, that is why when these people came towards the Denver hostel they saw these people, one of them was wearing red clothes. That's how ... CHAIRPERSON But who had the red clothes? MR MYAKA Myself. CHAIRPERSON And did they arrest you at the hostel, or where did they arrest you? MR MYAKA Next to the hostel, not on the premises. CHAIRPERSON Right. And where did they arrest Mr Mhlongo? MR MYAKA We were there, the two of us. CHAIRPERSON And Mr Mkwanazi, did he turn up at the hostel, or what happened to him? MR MYAKA Mr Mkwanazi did not go to Denver hostel, he managed to flee until he got a taxi back to the township. CHAIRPERSON How do you know that he got a taxi, did you see him later? MR MYAKA No I did not, that's the information I got when I was out on bail. They told me that they got to know about our arrest because of him. CHAIRPERSON I see. And Mr Shelembe, he was killed at the scene, is that right? MR MYAKA That is correct. CHAIRPERSON And now what happened to the money? MR MYAKA Mr Mkwanazi dropped the money during the shooting. Mr Shelembe came to pick it up and he got shot as he was picking up the money, CHAIRPERSON So in fact in the long run, you didn't succeed in getting any money? MR MYAKA Yes. CHAIRPERSON Now after you'd been arrested, what did your, Mr Msomi do, did he assist you in your trial? MR MYAKA When we started attending court in Jeppe, Mr ...(indistinct) was sent apparently by Mr Msomi to follow the Court proceedings. CHAIRPERSON Were you represented at the trial by a legal representative? MR MYAKA My parents secured a legal representative for me. CHAIRPERSON And your political organisation, did they assist in any way or did they come and say: "Well, we're sorry what happened", or how did they react after your arrest? MR MYAKA Yes, they did come to apologise. They contributed by way of saying they were going to give me the, should I say part of the money that I used for bail and they gave me R5000 thereof. CHAIRPERSON Who gave you the R5 000? MR MYAKA They gave me part of that money. CHAIRPERSON Ja. Okay the part that they'd given, who gave you the money? MR MYAKA Mr Msomi gave me the money. CHAIRPERSON And you mentioned two other Indunas, the Induna of the boys and his deputy who were part of the planning. What happened to them, did you see them again, Mr Shwala and Mr Ngema? MR MYAKA I was with them all along whilst I was still out on bail. CHAIRPERSON Did they say anything about ... MR MYAKA No, they told me not to worry, they would take care of the situation. CHAIRPERSON Now you know the policy of the IFP, or not? MR MYAKA Even though I cannot profess to know all the policies, yes. CHAIRPERSON But why do you say that the IFP have been involved in this and that they in some way got involved in the instructions or condoned what you've done? MR MYAKA I'm saying this because it was as a result of the IFP Induna, Msomi, that we committed this offence. CHAIRPERSON Did you believe that Mr Msomi had the right to instruct you to commit this offence? MR MYAKA I so much believed in that, such that we accepted everything that he said without dispute. CHAIRPERSON Why would you accept that he had such a strong position in the IFP, that he could order you to commit crimes? MR MYAKA He was an older person and he would talk about things that were also obvious to us. CHAIRPERSON But wasn't he perhaps a person who thought that this would be an opportunity to send you to commit a criminal offence and he could have the money for himself? MR MYAKA That did not occur to us because the situation that we were facing, as I've explained earlier, we were heading for the 1994 elections and we did not know what to expect during the elections. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Sorry Mr van der Heyde. Anything else you want to...? MR VAN DER HEYDE No, there's nothing further, all I want to clear up with you is, after you had been arrested you went to court and you have been found guilty and sentenced on these offences, is that true? MR MYAKA That is correct. MR VAN DER HEYDE What have you been sentenced, what were the offences that you were found guilty of? MR MYAKA The offence of robbery and the possession of firearm. MR VAN DER HEYDE And that is what you seek amnesty for today? MR MYAKA That is correct. MR VAN DER HEYDE Do you believe that what you did was to help the IFP to protect themselves against the ANC at that stage? MR MYAKA Excuse me? CHAIRPERSON Why did you do this? What was the reason for you to go and rob this business? MR MYAKA I have explained the reason for the robbery. CHAIRPERSON What would you have done with the money? MR MYAKA I have explained that we were going to give it to Msomi who would in turn distribute it or make use of it for the purchase of firearms and ammunition to protect the IFP members. MR VAN DER HEYDE Thank you Mr Chairperson, that's all. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VAN DER HEYDE CHAIRPERSON Mr Mapoma. CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MAPOMA Thank you Chairperson. Were you ever a member of the IFP? MR MYAKA Would you please repeat? MR MAPOMA Were you ever a member of the Inkatha Freedom Party? MR MYAKA I am a follower of the Inkatha Freedom Party. MR MAPOMA You have not answered my question. Please answer my question. Were you ever a member of the Inkatha Freedom Party? MR MYAKA I am saying I am a follower of Inkatha Freedom Party. ADV SIGODI But the question is not whether you were a follower, the question is were you a member? Do you have a membership card? MR MYAKA I am saying I was a follower because I do not have a membership card. ADV SIGODI You did not register with the party? MR MYAKA No. MR MAPOMA So is it correct that you were never a member of the IFP? CHAIRPERSON Ja, I think that's clear. You weren't a member but you say you were a follower and what do you mean by saying you're a follower? Did you support the IFP, did you work for the IFP, did you attend their meetings, did you vote for them, or what did you do? MR MYAKA I was involved in everything that the IFP was doing, in all the attacks that the IFP received, I was present. MR MAPOMA Who completed your application form for amnesty? MR MYAKA I am in prison, I therefore do not know what's happening outside the prison premises, I only know what's happening inside prison. MR SIBANYONI Mr Mapoma is referring to the application for amnesty. Who helped you to apply for amnesty by completing this form? MR MYAKA I don't quite understand. CHAIRPERSON Can you tell us, could you show him the form perhaps Mr van der Heyde. MR VAN DER HEYDE Excuse me Mr Chairperson, I just want to make it clear that my client cannot read or write at all. CHAIRPERSON Can you perhaps assist us? Do you know anything, who completed the form, who helped him, who assisted him? MR VAN DER HEYDE Mr Chairperson I do not specifically want to put my head on a block, but as far as I know Mrs Alina van der Westhuizen, from van der Westhuizen Attorneys here in Johannesburg, was assisting these applicants, that she was appointed to be their representative here at the TRC and that she withdrew but a few days ago, she said she could not attend it and I know her quite well and I do not specifically want to confirm this, but it actually looks to me like her handwriting as well. CHAIRPERSON I see in any event, he signed a power of attorney, for what it may be worth, appointing her firm to do everything on his behalf. MR VAN DER HEYDE Yes, Mr Chairperson. MR MYAKA Correct. CHAIRPERSON Right thank you. MR MAPOMA Thank you. What is the name, the first name of this Induna Msomi? MR MYAKA I would not tell a lie, I only know him as Mr Msomi. MR MAPOMA Where was he resident at the time? MR MYAKA At the hostel, at the Meadowlands Hostel. MR MAPOMA What's the name of the hostel? MR MYAKA Meadowlands Zone 11 Hostel. MR MAPOMA ; Is that the same hostel in which you were residing? MR MYAKA Yes. MR MAPOMA How far was that hostel from the Denver Hostel? MR MYAKA Quite a distance, because the one hostel I'm talking about is in Soweto and Denver hostel is in town. CHAIRPERSON I would say it may be more than Denver from Soweto, perhaps somebody else could help us here who is more familiar with it. Perhaps Mr Jafta could help us, but I think it may be up to say 10, 15 kilometres. MR MAPOMA Thank you Chairperson. MR MYAKA It's actually a long distance, even though I'm not in a position to give you the exact distance in kilometres. CHAIRPERSON I think we've got somebody who's more ... What would you say? 40? So far? Ja it's further even that I estimated. It seems to be about 40 kilometres. MR MAPOMA Thank you. CHAIRPERSON Mr Mapoma, where were you arrested, at the Denver Hostel or at the Meadowlands Hostel? MR MYAKA We were arrested next to the Denver Hostel. CHAIRPERSON You didn't go back after the robbery to your own hostel, you tired to go to the Denver Hostel, is that correct? MR MYAKA We tried to flee to Denver Hostel because we had lost one of us, so we were trying to hide away. CHAIRPERSON And the Denver Hostel, was also a hostel occupied by IFP members? MR MYAKA Yes. MR MAPOMA You have mentioned a number of people who were present when this plan was made. You said it was Botha Shwala, Konondo Ngema, Msomi and yourself. Is that all of you who were there? MR MYAKA Yes. MR MAPOMA And where was Simelani? MR MYAKA I don't know Simelani. CHAIRPERSON Wasn't it Mr Shelembe, wasn't he present at the planning too? MR MYAKA Yes, actually Mr Shelembe is the one who came to fetch me saying Mr Msomi required my presence. MR MAPOMA Mr Myaka, the IFP was asked by the Truth Commission to tell the Truth Commission whether you were members or supporters at all of the IFP and whether your action was in line with the IFP policy and the IFP has not confirmed your actions. MR VAN DER HEYDE Mr Chairperson, I just have to interfere here. The IFP has also not rejected it, they have not given any answer. I, as well after that have spoken to a Mr Peter Magwaza who is the Secretary of the IFP at the Regional Office in Johannesburg. I have also requested the same from him and he has not come back to me. CHAIRPERSON Ja, I think that's all Mr Mapoma was saying. He said they've been requested to confirm or deny and they didn't reply to that. MR MAPOMA Yes, they have not confirmed that. What is your comment to that? MR MYAKA There's nothing much I can comment on because the entire IFP knows about our, should I say not the entire IFP, knows about our offence. MR MAPOMA You see why I'm asking this question is because I want to put it to you that your actions had nothing to do with the IFP, what do you say to that? You were doing your own thing for your personal benefit. MR MYAKA Why are you saying that? MR MAPOMA I am not here to answer question. I'm here to ask you questions and you have the responsibility to answer those questions. I am saying I put it to you that what you did had nothing to do with the IFP. The IFP has not confirmed that what you did was in line with their policy. What do you comment to that? MR MYAKA There's nothing else I can say, except for what I have already testified about. MR MAPOMA Did you make means to advise Mr Msomi that you are applying for amnesty for what you did? MR MYAKA I tried several times, but I did not know the address nor the telephone numbers. MR MAPOMA You see Msomi himself has not confirmed what you are saying. What do you say to that? MR MYAKA That is not strange because nobody wants to be in prison. ADV SIGODI Why did he pick on you? Why do you think he picked on you to go and commit a robbery? MR MYAKA I think it's because he trusted us. ADV SIGODI Why did he trust you? MR MYAKA I think it's because even if he would wake us up at night to say we have a corpse in our midst, we would wake up and do what we were supposed to do. ADV SIGODI And do what? What would you do with a corpse? MR MYAKA What corpse? ADV SIGODI No but I heard you say that he would wake you up and even if ... INTERPRETER Chairperson, may I please come in? I think he said "ethnic" and I interpreted it as a corpse instead of an emergency. ADV SIGODI Oh. Alright, that was an interpretation problem. You say that he trusted you because he would wake you up even if you had an emergency in the night. MR MYAKA Correct. ADV SIGODI But then what would make him to trust you? What would you do about the emergency? MR MYAKA Say somebody had been shot and injured, if there was an injured person such as being shot, you see ...(indistinct) to hostel dwellers were attacked, but when there was such an emergency where we had to come in, we would help escort the vehicle to take the person to hospital. ADV SIGODI Alright I can understand that, but now the situation was different. Here Mr Msomi wants you to go and commit a crime. He's not asking you to go and help somebody who has been injured. Why would he choose you in the group to go and commit a crime. You were not even members of the IFP, were you? MR MYAKA As I've already explained, I do not think there is any other way that I would be able to explain this situation. ADV SIGODI So you do not know why he chose you? MR MYAKA I have explained. I have already explained the reason for that. ADV SIGODI Have you committed other crimes with Mr Msomi before? MR MYAKA I once escorted a kombi after a bomb explosion of Pongola children at the hostel and the driver did not want to go alone, but I decided myself, only myself, to escort that kombi. ADV SIGODI But that was nothing criminal, or was it? Escorting a kombi is nothing criminal, it's not a criminal act, is it? MR MYAKA Yes, that is correct. ADV SIGODI But now when you are called to go and commit a robbery, that is a crime, isn't it? Is it not? MR MYAKA Yes, that is correct, but I am giving you the reason to partake in that incident. ADV SIGODI Yes I understand the reason you are putting forward to us but my point is what I would like to find out from you is you were not a member of the IFP, were you? you were only a supporter or a follower of the IFP and not a member of the IFP. MR MYAKA That is correct. ADV SIGODI Now what reason did he have to call you to go and commit a crime on behalf of the IFP, when you are not even a member of the IFP, because IFP now will not take responsibility for your action. MR MYAKA I have already mentioned that as the IFP was attacked, I was always on the side of the IFP because I was a Zulu speaking person. I associated myself with IFP. ADV SIGODI I'll leave that question. I see you don't want to answer why Mr Msomi chose you. Now when he chose you, tell me, what were the circumstances? Did he just call the four of you out of the blue? MR MYAKA He called the four of us because we were always together. ADV SIGODI Were you employed at the time of this robbery? MR MYAKA I was selling meat. ADV SIGODI Where? MR MYAKA In the township. ADV SIGODI How much money were you making from selling meat? MR MYAKA I would make a profit of R500 to R600 but that income was fluctuating, it would depend on weekends and month end. ADV SIGODI But you were not in full-time employment, it was just your own business that you had. MR MYAKA Yes, that is correct, because I didn't want to run short of money. ADV SIGODI Okay. Now the identification of the target, who identified the target, this bottle store that had to be robbed? MR MYAKA Mr Msomi had the information about this bottle store, but to me that was not important to know who gave him that information. What was important to me was to get the money to buy firearms and ammunition. ADV SIGODI Do you know who the owner of the bottle store was? MR MYAKA No. ADV SIGODI And I presume you didn't know which political party he belonged to? Because you didn't know him, I presume you did not know which political party he belonged to? MR MYAKA Yes, that is correct. ADV SIGODI So if he were IFP, what would you have done? If he was a supporter of your political organisation, then what would you have done? MR MYAKA We were not going to ask questions as to his affiliate, we were going to do the job, we were not interested in that. ADV SIGODI So you were not interested in robbing a person of an opposing political organisation, you were just interested in robbing this person, for whatever reason, whether he belonged to which political organisation didn't matter? MR MYAKA No. ADV SIGODI And in the - what else did you take from these people? I know you did not manage to get away with the money, but you had already taken it away. What else did you take? MR MYAKA On my way out, I took the keys to the bottle store and a watch. After I was arrested, they were found in my pocket, the pocket of the duster coat that I was wearing. ADV SIGODI Yes and why did you take the watch? MR MYAKA It is because there was money value that was attached to the watch. ADV SIGODI No but those were not your instructions to go and take the watch. MR MYAKA Yes, that is correct. ADV SIGODI Why did you take the keys? MR MYAKA When I took the keys, my intention was to lock them inside. ADV SIGODI Who gave you the guns and the ammunition? MR MYAKA They came from Mr Msomi, he gave them to Mr Shelembe. MR MAPOMA Thank you. When you left, after you took the money from the bottle store, what - did you do anything to the persons who belonged to that bottle store? MR MYAKA No. CHAIRPERSON Except that you tried to lock them up in a storeroom. MR MAPOMA Yes, that is correct. CHAIRPERSON And they escaped and then you were confronted outside by security guards and were those people also there, the bottle store people? MR MYAKA As they used the back door to escape, I think there was a security guard at the back, because when they appeared again, they came together with the security guard. There were four of them now. CHAIRPERSON And then a shoot-out started between - you tried to shoot at them and they shot at you? MR MYAKA That is correct. CHAIRPERSON So in fact, Mr Mapoma asked you what did you do to them, in fact you tried to shoot them, is that correct? Yes you. MR MYAKA I did mention that I'm the first person who wanted to shoot first but my firearm failed, until Mr Mhlongo fired and he was followed by Mr Shelembe. CHAIRPERSON No, we've heard that, yes. MR MAPOMA Is it correct that you locked them in the fridge? MR MYAKA No, that is not true. MR MAPOMA You see I'll tell you, there is a statement which was made by the owner of the bottle store, Mr Jose deFreitas on page 45 up to page 47 of the bundle. On page 46 in particular in paragraph a(2) of that page, I will read to you what he says. Chairperson, I think it's the 10th line on that second paragraph. What he says, he says "They locked us into the fridge. While we were in the fridge we heard some shots fired outside. We struggled to open the fridge as they put crates full of beer behind the door." This is what the owner of the bottle store says, what is your comment on this? MR MYAKA If we had locked them inside the fridge, they wouldn't be able to get out. They would need someone to come and take them out of that fridge. MR MAPOMA Do you still deny that you locked them into the fridge? MR MYAKA Yes, I deny that. CHAIRPERSON I wonder whether there's some confusion about a fridge and it might have been a cool room, because I don't think you'll manage to get three people into a fridge, the ordinary fridge, so I think perhaps we're talking about a sort of cool storeroom where they stored the liquor. Mr Mapoma, I see it's four o'clock, if you want to continue tomorrow or if you finish within the next minute or two - well I don't want to interrupt you. MR MAPOMA I was about to wrap up, Chairperson. Actually, this was my last point. I understand he's denying this fridge story. I'll leave it there Chairperson. That's it. Thank you. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MAPOMA CHAIRPERSON Ja, if perhaps you want to ask something else tomorrow morning, you could still continue. We'll now adjourn until 9.30 tomorrow morning. Would that suit everybody? Thank you. COMMITTEE ADJOURNS