amntrans AMNESTY HEARINGS 2000-10-25 JOHANNESBURG 3 PHUMAYAKHE MOSI MYAKA https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=54564&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/2000/201025jb.htm PHUMAYAKHE MOSI MYAKA (s.u.o.) CHAIRPERSON Mr Mapoma? MR MAPOMA I was also finished cross-examination. CHAIRPERSON Any of the members? ADV SIGODI I have no questions Chairperson. MR SIBANYONI I've also got no questions Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON The Induna's Mr Msomi and Shwala and Ngema, what were their functions at the hostels? MR MYAKA Will you please repeat the question Sir? CHAIRPERSON What were the functions of the Indunas you've mentioned, Mr Msomi, Mr Shwala and Mr Ngema? MR MYAKA They were responsible for co-ordination and briefing people about financial status of the organisation. CHAIRPERSON Which organisation? What was the name of this organisation you're talking about? MR MYAKA That was the IFP. CHAIRPERSON And you said that Mr Shwala, I think, was the leader of the boys, is that the youth, or what was his position really? MR MYAKA He was a leader, he would lead people and attend to the problems of the gentlemen at the hostel if there were rallies. CHAIRPERSON And Mr Ngema, was his deputy, so he had the same functions I believe. MR MYAKA Yes, that is correct, they were assisting each other. CHAIRPERSON And the rallies you're talking about, what rallies were they? MR MYAKA Whenever there was an IFP meeting or rally, Judge Goch hostel or Jabulani Hostel, they would help there. CHAIRPERSON Yes. Were you involved in many fights or battles against political opponents? MR MYAKA Yes that is correct. CHAIRPERSON And were you regarded as a brave man, or were you in the front, or why do you think you were picked to do this job? MR MYAKA It was so easy to get hold of us and it would be easy for us to deliver the message, if we are given a message. CHAIRPERSON Did you know Mr Msomi well? MR MYAKA Yes. CHAIRPERSON From where did he come? MR MYAKA He was coming from Nkandla, KwaZulu Natal. CHAIRPERSON And you? From where are you? MR MYAKA I am also coming from Nkandla, but we did not know each other at Nkandla, but we only first got to know each other at the hostel. CHAIRPERSON I see and you've told us that they promised to contribute to your bail, or that they in fact contributed half of the amount. Did they contribute, or did they only promise to contribute? MR MYAKA They gave me half of that R5 000. CHAIRPERSON Did they give it to you, or to whom did they hand over the money? MR MYAKA My father was present at the time, coming from my home, the money was given to him. CHAIRPERSON And where did they get the money from, do you know? MR MYAKA It was not necessary for me to ask them where they got the money from. CHAIRPERSON Do you know whether the IFP members contributed, or how did they raise the money? MR MYAKA On my mind, I thought that this money was coming from the IFP members. ADV SIGODI Why did you think that? What basis do you have to think that? MR MYAKA It is solely because I knew that they cannot pop out such an amount of money from their pockets, that was coming from the organisation's money. ADV SIGODI But wasn't it the way of the IFP to go and rob and get the money? MR MYAKA Excuse me? ADV SIGODI Okay, let me rephrase that question. Do you know if there were any other previous robberies before you committed this robbery? MR MYAKA In our area, I had never heard of such robberies. ADV SIGODI I mean robberies which were directed or by the Induna Msomi. MR MYAKA It was not easy for me to get that information, because even what we did on that day was not something that would be published. ADV SIGODI Why did you think it was necessary for you to follow the orders of Mr Msomi to commit a crime? MR MYAKA It is because of the situation prevailing at the time, because I was also uncertain about the elections and we knew that we might lose our place of residence or we might even die during or after the elections. ADV SIGODI What made you think so? MR MYAKA It was because of the situation prevailing at the time. ADV SIGODI What situation? MR MYAKA The violence. ADV SIGODI Why didn't you join the IFP? MR MYAKA The reason for me not to get the membership card, the situation was so tense, to such an extent that it was decided that the membership cards would be obtained after the elections because the cards were not enough for the people. ADV SIGODI Who said that the cards were not enough for the people. MR MYAKA It was Mr Msomi. ADV SIGODI Do you know why Mr Msomi is not here today? Why is he not here to verify what you are saying? MR MYAKA I do not know because since I was imprisoned I couldn't get hold of him. ADV SIGODI Has he ever been to see you in prison? MR MYAKA I last saw him when I was out on bail. ADV SIGODI And what did he say to you when you were out on bail? MR MYAKA What he said ...(indistinct) Konondo and Mr Shwala, they said I shouldn't be surprised by the situation that I found myself in, but they would be on my side all the time. They promised that they were going to be on my side all the time. ADV SIGODI Did they go to court? MR MYAKA Yes, Mr Shwala was present in court. ADV SIGODI Who represented you at your criminal trial? MR MYAKA Mr Steyn. ADV SIGODI Who paid for your legal fees? MR MYAKA The legal fees were paid by my father. ADV SIGODI In other words, you had to make your own arrangements, you didn't get a lawyer from the Legal Aid, or someone from the State? MR MYAKA I could not look for the State legal representative because Mr Steyn was already there. ADV SIGODI So you had to find your own way of paying your own lawyer? MR MYAKA That was my father's idea, when he came from home, when he discovered that I was in prison. ADV SIGODI And whilst you were in prison, are there any IFP people who have been to visit you? MR MYAKA Yes. ADV SIGODI No, I mean IFP officials. MR MYAKA No, no-one ever visited me from the IFP officials. ADV SIGODI Is there anybody who came to recognise that what you had done, you were doing for the organisation? MR MYAKA ...(not translated) ADV SIGODI That the crime you had committed you were doing for the organisation, is there anybody who came to recognise that or say that to you in prison and give you some assurance that look what you have done you were doing for the organisation and that the organisation would perhaps look after you? MR MYAKA I had that on my mind, that what I did I did for the IFP, therefore they had to stand by me. ADV SIGODI Did they stand by you? MR MYAKA I cannot say they did that because since I was imprisoned, no one of them ever visited me. ADV SIGODI Thank you. CHAIRPERSON The attorney, Ms van der Westhuizen, did you organise her or how did she come to visit you? MR MYAKA I made an application to the TRC. CHAIRPERSON And Ms van der Westhuizen was appointed by the IFP as a person to help - I don't think the TRC. Mr van der Heyden, were you involved, do you know how it came about that she's been appointed? MR VAN DER HEYDE No Mr Chairperson, but I was also involved in the beginning when the TRC process started, to go to all the hostels and to do groundwork, to find out who of their people are in jail for political offences and we then as sort of a legal team, which involved Nel Kotze and van Dyk Attorneys from Pretoria at that stage, Mr Koos van der Merwe has his own lawyers firm, ...(indistinct) van der Merwe attorneys, in conjunction with Mrs Alina van der Westhuizen from Johannesburg ... CHAIRPERSON Which van der Westhuizen is the Chief Whip of the IFP? MR VAN DER HEYDE Mr Koos van der Merwe, yes. CHAIRPERSON And we will refer to, you said Mr Zizi. MR VAN DER HEYDE He's also a member of Parliament. CHAIRPERSON Were they involved in arranging representatives for the IFP members? MR VAN DER HEYDE Yes, Mr Zizi was in fact very instrumental in this. He made the arrangements for us to go to the different prisons that were here in Gauteng. I did not - I cannot speak in this specific case, I did not take part in ... CHAIRPERSON Yes, I know Mr van der Merwe came and saw members of the TRC at that stage and he said that Mr Zizi would be the person who would co-ordinate things and at that stage Ms van der Westhuizen was also involved in representing IFPs. MR VAN DER HEYDE Yes, she's still involved in the ...(indistinct), actually she's well-known as a, I don't want to brand her, but as an IFP lawyer. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Any further questions? RE-EXAMINATION BY MR VAN DER HEYDE Yes, Mr Chairperson. I just one to clear one thing with you Mr Myaka. The issue of being an IFP member or supporter. Can you tell me what the difference is between being an IFP member and what is the difference between that and being an IFP supporter? MR MYAKA I cannot see the difference, because I was involved in all the IFP activities. I would be told from time to time or updated about the IFP activities, therefore I cannot see the difference between the member and the supporter. MR VAN DER HEYDE Now you said that you are from Meadowlands Hostel. Is Meadowlands and Mzimhlope Hostel, is it the same hostel? MR MYAKA Yes, that is correct. MR VAN DER HEYDE Is Meadowlands Hostel, is it known as an IFP hostel? MR MYAKA That is correct. MR VAN DER HEYDE What would happen if you were an ANC member and you were living in that hostel? Did something like that ever occur? MR MYAKA You mean being an IFP member, anything would happen. MR VAN DER HEYDE No, I asked, what would happen if you stayed in Meadowlands Hostel and it became known that you are an ANC member, would that ever have happened? MR MYAKA If you happened to be an ANC member, you wouldn't be told to leave, you would make a choice, you would decide to leave, no one would tell you to leave, you would decide, that is why I was also not told. If I would be found among ANC members I wouldn't be told to leave, but I would make a choice. MR VAN DER HEYDE Would it be difficult for an ANC member to live in a hostel that was predominantly an IFP hostel? MR MYAKA During those time, it would be difficult. MR VAN DER HEYDE The people that lived with you in this Meadowlands Hostel, did they perceive you as being an IFP supporter? MR MYAKA They used to regard me as an IFP member, not a supporter. MR VAN DER HEYDE Did the Induna see you as an IFP member? MR MYAKA Yes, that is correct, because that is why he told me that we mustn't worry ourselves about the membership cards, those would be organised after the elections. MR SIBANYONI I'm sorry Mr van der Heyden, can I just ask the question so that if there's something arising, you can get an opportunity to clear that up? Tell me, they gave you half of the bail money. What happened after you were convicted with that bail money they gave you? I cannot tell because I was promised to get the other half later on. When I was in prison no one ever contacted them because even from my own home, there was no one who would talk to them because during the time of my imprisonment, my mother had passed away, my brother had passed away and my father is missing. There was no other person who would be a contact between me and those people. MR SIBANYONI So you are saying they in fact offered to pay the whole bail money at one stage? MR MYAKA Yes, that was the agreement, that they were going to pay back the money that I had paid for the bail, but they only gave me half of that amount. MR SIBANYONI And they never claimed that money back, or you are not sure, you don't know what eventually happened to the bail money? Who paid the bail? MR MYAKA Mr Msomi came up with the money, but I do not know where he got the money from. MR SIBANYONI But finally, didn't you ask them to organise you a lawyer, instead of your father taking care of that? Didn't you ask the IFP to provide you with a lawyer? MR MYAKA My father came and he wanted to get a legal representative. They told him that there was an IFP lawyer. They said it was necessary for me to be represented by the IFP lawyer, because I was arrested for the IFP matters. MR SIBANYONI So it's your father who declined the services of that lawyer? MR MYAKA No, he did not decline. As a person who was a pensioner, he came and he did not know what was happening here and then he decided to get a legal representative, but he was told that there is an IFP lawyer and he said there was no money, but they said it's not a problem. They told him that there was no money, but he said: "Money is not a problem". That's what my father told them. MR SIBANYONI Thank you. MR VAN DER HEYDE At the Meadowlands Hostel, did they hold regular meetings at your hostel which everybody had to attend? MR MYAKA There were days, perhaps on weekends, that meetings would be convened, but if there were emergency matters, people would be called together and a meeting would be convened. MR VAN DER HEYDE Did they discuss politics at these meetings? MR MYAKA They would discuss about violence, what was happening at places, people who would be killed in violence and so on. MR VAN DER HEYDE Were you one of the men who stood up and talked about this violence at such meetings? MR MYAKA Yes, if I had an idea, I would stand up and tell the people about my idea. MR VAN DER HEYDE Now after you have talked about the politics at such meetings, do you, as a hostel, do they take political decisions there, what to do with these problems? MR MYAKA If it was necessary to take a decision, that would happen so. MR VAN DER HEYDE So it was not necessary first to go and ask the top leadership of the IFP what actions would be taken. If you took, you as a hostel, if you took a decision, then you followed that decision, am I correct? MR MYAKA Please repeat the question. MR VAN DER HEYDE When a decision has been taken by your hostel to do something with a political problem that you had, did you have to go and ask the top leadership like Mr Buthelezi, if you could proceed with this action, or did you just proceed with this action in your own hostel? MR MYAKA I know Mr Buthelezi as an IFP leader, but I never had an opportunity to talk to him. MR VAN DER HEYDE Okay, no that's fine. I just want to raise another issue with you. You said yesterday that at the liquor store your gun would not work. Now did you point, just tell me again, did you point the gun at somebody and try to pull the trigger and it did not work? MR MYAKA Yes, I did that. I pointed to the Security Guard, but the firearm failed. MR VAN DER HEYDE Is it so then that with this - okay, no first. Were you convicted of attempted murder in Court? MR MYAKA No. MR VAN DER HEYDE Now is it so that you want to apply for amnesty for attempted murder as well? MR MYAKA Yes. CHAIRPERSON I think you could argue on the facts whatever offence would be applicable to the evidence before us. MR VAN DER HEYDE Alright, I will leave it. That's then all, thank you Mr Chairperson. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VAN DER HEYDE CHAIRPERSON Thank you. ....(indistinct - mike not on) MR MAPOMA Just some, Chairperson. FURTHER CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MAPOMA What position did Mr Msomi have in the IFP, if you know at all? MR MYAKA I knew him as one of the Indunas inside the hostel. MR MAPOMA Do you know who the Chairperson of the IFP in that hostel was? MR MYAKA It was Bongnkosi Dlamini. MR MAPOMA And who was the Secretary? MR MYAKA I do not know his secretary, because most of the time I was not part of that, I was only checking on other problems inside the hostel. MR MAPOMA Now did you father visit you in the prison? MR MYAKA Yes, it was in January 1995 while I was in Johannesburg prison. As an elderly person, he couldn't come back again because there were other problems at home. I last received a letter that my father had since disappeared. MR MAPOMA Are you saying your father disappeared? MR MYAKA Yes. MR MAPOMA Now we know from you that you have never heard of any robbery conducted by the IFP before yours. Why did you not ask Msomi about this new exercise of robbing now? MR MYAKA I was not in a position to ask him about that because I did not have another plan that could be devised to get firearms. If I had a choice of getting a firearm or an alternative, maybe I would be able to ask that question. ADV SIGODI Did you know how many weapons there were in the hostel, how many guns there were? MR MYAKA No, I cannot tell, because I was not keep them. ADV SIGODI But you knew there were some guns in the hostel? MR MYAKA Yes, that is correct. ADV SIGODI And you also had some guns which were given to you by the Induna? MR MYAKA Yes, that is correct, I had one that was with me, that I would use during the patrols. Even if I was suspecting something during the night, I would use that. ADV SIGODI Now why did you believe that you had to go and get some more weapons? MR MYAKA It is solely because we were uncertain about the future after the elections and we did not have enough at the time because some of the firearms had disappeared and other people, some of the firearms were confiscated while other people were arrested. MR MAPOMA Thank you. I have no further questions Chairperson. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MAPOMA CHAIRPERSON Thank you. WITNESS EXCUSED CHAIRPERSON Could you call the next applicant. MR VAN DER HEYDE Mr Chairperson I call Mr Smanekwa Mhlongo.