amntrans AMNESTY HEARINGS 2000-11-15 BLOEMFONTEIN 6 ANTHONY JAGGA https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=54569&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/2000/201115bl.htm ON RESUMPTION CHAIRPERSON Good morning everybody. It's still the continuation of the applications of Mr Anthony Jagga and three others. Mr Visser, we've just finished with your third applicant. The ball is still in your court, the fourth application rather. MR VISSER Yes, Chairperson. I was going to conclude by referring you to some attempts which were made by ourselves to try to obtain more information which could shed light on some of the issues that had been raised in cross-examination here, particularly in regard to the incident which took place and which Mr Jagga confirmed that he had heard about from the Lesotho police, that there was a shooting on a road somewhere and Chairperson, although we haven't got copies, may I read to you a letter written by my attorney, Wagener, on the 8th of November and it is a letter directed to the Commissioner of the Royal Lesotho Mounted Police, Maseru, Lesotho and it says "Dear Sir, I represent a number of ex-members of the South African Police in their applications for amnesty to the Truth and Reconciliation Commission and this letter is addressed to you on behalf of such clients, in a matter that is at present partly heard and which will proceed in Bloemfontein on 13 November 2000. A dispute has arisen regarding an incident which took place during 1987 within your jurisdiction, namely the following: (1) towards the end of 1987 and near Mafikeng, members of your department set up an official road block, (2) the driver of one vehicle failed to act correctly and a shoot-out followed killing one passenger and wounding another, (3) the wounded, a certain Atwell Maqhekeza was taken to the Queen Elizabeth II Hospital in Maseru for treatment, (4) however the following day the said injured passenger was shot and killed inside the hospital, (5) the exact date and particulars of the said incident are now in dispute. In view of the aforesaid, you are kindly requested to forward me on an urgent basis, the following particulars: (1) the date of the incident, (2) I am told that someone was later arrested and charged for the murder in the hospital, particulars thereof are also required, (3) the particulars of the road block, if available, are also required. I look forward to your kind assistance herein." Mr Jagga, as I am now told it is pronounced, Chairperson, took this matter up with the Lesotho police and discussed it with someone there, I don't know with whom and he was told that a letter has to be written in which the information was formally required and it is for that reason that this letter was addressed to the Commissioner. Now I'm sad to inform you, Chairperson, that there has been absolutely no reaction and no result. Mr Jagga, is still attempting to pursue the matter and I've understood from what Mr Malindi said yesterday, that they have also made attempts to pursue the matter, so it seems that the sign on the wall is, the writing on the wall is that we're not going to get an information and it's sad that that is so, because that could have established one way or the other, objectively some part of the evidence which we're now obviously going to have to do without, Chairperson. That being so, that is the evidence which we propose to present to you in support of the applications of the four applicants for their amnesty in the present incidents and so to speak, that's the case for the applicant. CHAIRPERSON Thank you Mr Visser and you convey the indebtedness, which the Panel appreciates, from the efforts made by your attorney, please convey those sentiments. Then it would be for the victims, but to have a better record, Mr Malindi you indicated that you are also making attempts to get certain information, since Mr Visser took the initiative, could you just complete that phase before you tell me what you propose to do next? That refers to you as well Mr Koopedi. MR MALINDI Thank you Chairperson. Chairperson, we have also tried to make further investigations on various aspects of this matter. At this stage, Chairperson, we prefer not to divulge which annals of this case we are investigating. A little bit of progress has been made, but we have not been able to finalise consultations with the people who could help in those aspects of this matter. I may just indicate that we are forming a view and if our opinion is correct, at one or another stage we will, depending on whether we obtain the information we are endeavouring to get, we will bring an application for the re-opening of this matter, that's if in these proceedings it's permissible, but we see no reason why in the normal criminal and civil trials, such provisions are possible and failing which, we will follow other procedures to make sure that whatever we uncover is used for the benefit especially of the victims in this matter. So the short and long of it Chairperson, is that our ...(indistinct) was, we are unable to divulge even to the Committee at this stage, except if we are required to do so in Chambers. CHAIRPERSON Thank you Mr Malindi. I think we can take it up at a later stage, but what you have just alluded to, it's your right and the victim's right, but may I just bring to your attention that whatever you propose to do in future, you have this at the back of your mind, the last time the Amnesty Committee had a meeting, is that this is the last month where hearings are conducted and in terms of the Act that brought us into being, is that we've got to write a codicil, finalising all the process of the TRC per se and such process or the writing of the codicil, will be completed by March next year and the following month, or the same month, I'm not now very certain of my facts, is that it would be presented to the President and that would be announcing our death in terms of the Act and should there be some process or something whilst this is in process should happen, take into account that in December I'm assuming duties at the TPD, my Judge President is impatient with me, so effectively I'm with the Amnesty Committee up to the end of this month, so I want you just to be aware of some of these things and it is your right, I wouldn't bear upon you or put pressure upon you to divulge what you think is confidential and you are still doing investigations, but I should thank you as well, together with your attorney, that I'm most indebted to you, to the legal representatives, they have approached this matter with all diligence and trying to assist where there are deficiencies, that is most appreciated by my Panel. Thank you. Mr Visser has finished. The ball is now in your court, I don't know what you propose doing. MR MALINDI Thank you very much Chairperson. Thank you also for bringing to our attention certain of the aspects relating to the life span and other things about the Amnesty Committee. Chairperson, today we propose to call members of the families of the four people that disappeared in this matter. Chairperson, they are going to be very short witnesses, I don't propose to make an opening address because the purpose of their testimony will come out of their own evidence. Briefly, it is just to establish that contact was maintained, though erratic, between the disappeared and their families and that from December 1987 none of them made further contact with their families and our submission will therefore be that were they returned into Lesotho, they would have made some contact as they used to before and that is the basis on calling the witnesses and I hope that it is necessary, we believe it is necessary to call them, Chairperson. Chairperson then in as far as Ngulelo Ngono, the evidence that will be led will indicate that he had contact with his family post December 1987 and that our submission in that respect will be that he was not taken to Ladybrand in December, but his disappearance was as a result of subsequent operations and not related to the other three. Thank you Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON So are you going to call the families as we have it on record, in other words starting with Ms Betty Boom, Nomasonto, Tax and then lastly Ngono? MR MALINDI Chairperson, not in that order. I propose to call Mrs Mokhele first. SIPOLOLO MARIA MOKHELE (sworn states) CHAIRPERSON Thank you, you may be seated. MR MALINDI Thank you Chairperson. EXAMINATION BY MR MALINDI Mrs Mokhele, could you tell the Committee how you are related to one of the people who disappeared in this matter? MRS MOKHELE The person who disappeared is my son's child. It happened that in 1987 two male persons arrived with a car at my house and I was outside. They brought the child and a suitcase. I was outside. They entered through the gate. They greeted us and inquired as to whether it's Mokhele's place, then we said yes. They said: "We've come here." Then I made them to enter the house, then I called Mr Mokhele to inform him that there are guests. He greeted them. They gave us a letter, then I gave it Mr Mokhele, he read the letter. The letter - they said that ...(indistinct) wanted us to have the baby, then we welcomed the child. Then the second letter was produced, that we should give it to Mr Mashiya, then we told them to take the letter themselves. They left to Mr Mashiya's place. MR MALINDI Mr Mokhele do you remember the date on which the child was delivered at your place? MRS MOKHELE It was on the 24th of December. MR MALINDI Did you yourself read the letter? MRS MOKHELE My husband read the letter. I ...(indistinct) the letter, even when my son arrived, I showed him the letter to read. MR LAX Sorry, please just repeat that, you cut off the first part inadvertently. We can't hear you. MRS MOKHELE After my husband read the letter, ... INTERPRETER I'm repeating the same answer, I asked her to repeat. MRS MOKHELE After my husband had read the letter, I put the letter aside and then when my son arrived I showed him the letter to read. That is all. MR MALINDI The son that you are referring to, who is that? MRS MOKHELE That is Tsietsi. MR MALINDI When you say when he arrived, where did he arrive from? MRS MOKHELE He was from exile. MR LAX Sorry, when did he arrive from exile? MRS MOKHELE If I'm not mistaken it was somewhere in 1993 during Chris Hani's funeral or death. MR MALINDI Thank you Chairperson, no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MALINDI CHAIRPERSON Thank you Mr Malindi. Mr Visser any cross-examination? MR VISSER Thank you Chairperson. CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR VISSER Mrs Mokhele, who do you regard as the person who is representing you at these hearings, or the persons representing you at these hearings? Who is speaking on your behalf? MRS MOKHELE I don't understand the question. MR VISSER Who is your representative here? Listen carefully Mrs Mokhele, the question is, there are two legal counsels whom you are sitting between them, who is representing you between the two? MRS MOKHELE The one who is on the right-hand side. CHAIRPERSON But she's indicating with her left-hand, am I correct. INTERPRETER Yes, indicating to the left, but actually she is saying on the right-hand side. CHAIRPERSON Show us by hand. MRS MOKHELE The one I'm pointing at. CHAIRPERSON Pointing at Adv Malindi. MRS MOKHELE Yes, Malindi. MR VISSER And also Mr Koopedi, he's your attorney, not so? MRS MOKHELE Yes. MR VISSER And Mr Mapoma, is he representing you? MRS MOKHELE Yes. MR VISSER So did you tell all three these representatives what you know about this case? MRS MOKHELE I hope I told them. MR VISSER Did you tell them that there were two letters that you know about? MRS MOKHELE Yes, there were two letters. MR VISSER And the fact that that was never put to any of the applicants, I take it you have no explanation for that not happening? MRS MOKHELE I believe they knew, because I told them. MR VISSER Alright. What precisely - well you were asked, the first question you were asked in your evidence today was that you were related to one of the persons who disappeared, do you remember that? MRS MOKHELE Yes. MR VISSER But you never told us who this person was that disappeared. Who was it? MRS MOKHELE Sonti Mashiya. MR VISSER And is that your son's child? MRS MOKHELE Yes. MR VISSER You see I think there's a little confusion, may I try to assist you? Isn't what you're really saying that Nomasonto Mashiya was your son's wife and your son's child is the child that was brought to you by the two unknown male persons, is that not really what you're saying? MRS MOKHELE Yes, that is true. MR VISSER Alright. Now this letter that these two gentlemen - incidentally, did you know them from before, the two gentlemen that came with the child? MRS MOKHELE I did not know them Chairperson. MR VISSER Did they tell you where they were from? MRS MOKHELE They told me that they are from Lesotho. MR VISSER Did they tell you what work they did? MRS MOKHELE They said they were comrades. They were sent by Sonti to bring the child. MR VISSER Yes. And they gave you two letters, I understand, is that correct? The one letter you accepted and the other one you said you must take that to Mr Mashiya yourself, is that correct? MRS MOKHELE That is correct, Chairperson. MR VISSER Now we're just going to talk about the one letter that you took from them. This is the letter that you said Mr Mokhele read. Now that Mr Mokhele is not your son, that is your husband? MRS MOKHELE Yes. That is correct, that was my husband. MR VISSER How did he read it? MRS MOKHELE He has since died. MR VISSER Aright. How did he read it? Did he read it out aloud or did he read it for himself? MRS MOKHELE He was reading the letter aloud. That is where the letter was saying that Sonti is sending the child home and the child's name was Mosana Reginald and then even then the child's age appeared, you know, was read from the letter. If we were not at home, he should be taken at Mashiya's place. MR VISSER Mrs Mokhele, in what language was this letter written? MRS MOKHELE In Sotho. The letter was written in Sotho. MR VISSER Did your husband understand Sotho? MRS MOKHELE That's correct, Chairperson. MR VISSER Now you've already started telling us about what the letter said, but I want to deal with that in more detail. First of all, had you seen this child ever before that day? MRS MOKHELE I saw him for the first time. MR VISSER So you didn't know this child at all? You never saw him before? MRS MOKHELE That is correct, Chairperson. MR VISSER Why is that? Not seeing your son's child for two years, because he was apparently two years old at the time, wasn't he, in December 1987? MRS MOKHELE They were in exile. MR VISSER Had you see photographs of him before? Was a photograph sent to you of this grandchild of yours? MRS MOKHELE I hadn't seen photos before, that was for the first time I saw him. MR VISSER In fact it seems that there was no contact, either between you and your son, while he was in exile, or between you and Nomasonto Mashiya, while she was in exile, is that correct? MRS MOKHELE My son was in Russia. MR VISSER That's not my question. I've put to you that it would appear that there was no contact in any way, between your son and yourself or Nomasonto Mashiya and yourselves, while she was and he was in exile. MRS MOKHELE It was during that time, you would not be able to communicate through post or through letters. MR VISSER So do you agree with me that there was no communication? MRS MOKHELE That is correct, Chairperson. MR VISSER Did you then accept that this child was in fact your son's child when you got the letter? MRS MOKHELE Yes, Chairperson, I accepted. MR VISSER Because there was no way in which you could either confirm that it was so, or confirm that it wasn't so, not so? You had no contact with your son or with Nomasonto. MRS MOKHELE Yes, I just accepted that child as my grandchild. MR VISSER Where is this child at the moment, is he still alive? MRS MOKHELE Yes, he's still alive. MR VISSER And where is he, where does he live? MRS MOKHELE He is staying with me. We came with him in Johannesburg. We were not able to come with him here because he's writing exams. MR VISSER I didn't want you to bring him here, the point is you have been looking after that child ever since? MRS MOKHELE We were helping each other, myself and ...(indistinct) family. MR VISSER Yes, alright. Now when your son returned from exile in 1993, did he recognise the child and confirm that it was his child and that of Nomasonto? MRS MOKHELE Yes, he confirmed, but we were still waiting for Nomasonto to return. MR VISSER Alright. Now this letter, you say the letter stated how old the child was, did you say that? MRS MOKHELE Yes, the letter stated that he was just about to finish the second year. MR VISSER Did the letter say anything about inoculations that the child has to receive, or injections? MRS MOKHELE Yes, Chairperson, the letter stated, because the letter was no accompanied by a clinic card, so it was stated in the letter. MR VISSER And when you refer to a clinic card, I take it you refer to those certificates which are issued by the clinics, which is a printed form, to say on this date he received that inoculation and the next inoculation he must receive will be on that date, is that what you're referring to? MRS MOKHELE Yes, that is correct, Chairperson. MR VISSER And the child's clothes were also brought by these two unknown gentlemen to you? MRS MOKHELE That is correct, Chairperson, it was clothes and nappies. MR VISSER What did you think was going on when this child arrived on your doorstep? INTERPRETER Can you start again, I missed the first part. MR VISSER What did you think was going on when this child arrived on your doorstep with two strangers? MRS MOKHELE I was scared and surprised, because I was surprised why the child would be brought by male people. MR VISSER Did you ask the two gentlemen what their names were and what was going on? MRS MOKHELE We asked their identity, but the names are out of my memory. They said that they were sent by Sonti to bring the child home and that they were comrades. MR VISSER You still had this letter in 1993, according to your evidence. MRS MOKHELE Yes, the letter was there in 1993. MR VISSER So where is it now? MRS MOKHELE We searched the letter and we couldn't find it. MR VISSER Didn't you put it away in a safe place, it was an important letter, wasn't it? It was the last time and in fact the only time that you heard from Nomasonto since she went into exile. MRS MOKHELE I put it on a safe place, then I gave it to my son, so I don't know what happened thereafter. MR VISSER Alright, where is your son, Tsietsi? MRS MOKHELE He's there. MR VISSER He's there, but he's not here today. MRS MOKHELE He is present today. MR VISSER So perhaps he will give evidence and we might be able to ask him a whole lot of things. Now, who is this Mr Mashiya? MRS MOKHELE He is present today. MR VISSER Who is he? Where does he fit into the picture? MRS MOKHELE He's Sonti's father. MR VISSER I see. So are you saying that there were two letters. The one was addressed to yourself and your husband to look after the child and if you either did not want to or if they could not find you, there was a second letter to Mr Mashiya and I take it to his wife that they must look after the child, is that a reasonable inference to be drawn from your evidence? MRS MOKHELE Yes, because when we looked at these letters, they were written the same way. All of them were contained in pink envelopes. MR VISSER Yes and it would make sense then that the contents of the letters would have been the same, or similar, the one addressed to you and the one addressed to them, because it would deal with the requirements of the child. MRS MOKHELE Yes, much of the details were similar. MR VISSER Yes, I understand. How well can you remember the details that were set out in this letter? Do you have a clear memory or is your memory vague about it? Because if you say you have a clear memory, I'm going to ask you some more questions about the contents of this letter. MRS MOKHELE I have forgotten some of the facts which were contained in the letter. MR VISSER Fair enough, it's thirteen years ago, not so, it's a long time ago that this happened. Do you agree? One tends to forget things. MRS MOKHELE Yes, that is correct. MR VISSER One of the things that I have to ask you about is this, we were given to understand that there was a wedding and at this wedding an unknown female person arrived who gave you certain information about Nomasonto, did that ever happen? MRS MOKHELE In regard to that marriage, I was not present, I learnt about the discussion during that wedding, after my son had returned from the Mashiya's family, so they would say much about that. MR VISSER I see. I understand what you say, but then it cannot possibly be correct if somebody stated that you went to Lesotho to go and look for Nomasonto. MRS MOKHELE No, I didn't go to Lesotho. MR LAX Just on a point of clarification, you said the wedding was in the Mashiya family, not in her family. MR VISSER Well, that's the point, I'm just clarifying, so it must have been her own parents that went and not this person. And that's all you can tell us about this whole story? That's all you know about the disappearance of Nomasonto Mashiya? MRS MOKHELE That is all, Chairperson, I can tell in regard to her disappearance. MR VISSER Well, then I have no further questions, thank you Chairperson. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VISSER CHAIRPERSON Thank you Mr Visser. Mr Mapoma, may I just confirm that I believe you are part of the team that is representing the victims? MR MAPOMA Chairperson, I thank you for that opportunity. In fact that's an issue that I wanted to raised before the Committee and everybody involved at these hearings. Chairperson, it is not correct that I am acting for the victims in this particular matter because there are legal representatives who have been appointed by the TRC to act for the victims in this particular matter. My duty is that of a Leader of Evidence and I consider my responsibility, Chairperson, as to assist the Committee by making sure that whatever evidence is available it is brought before the Committee. I must, Chairperson, explain that in the process I do speak to the victims. In fact they come to me to ask for some questions regarding the process itself and in that process then I do communicate to them. It is not correct to say that I consulted with the victims with a view to presenting evidence from them, that has not happened. All I did was to answer questions that come from victims regarding this matter. MR VISSER Chairperson, may I be allowed to say something? It just occurred to me that Mr Mapoma might quite rightly think that I was criticising him, but that wasn't the point at all, although I must tell you that we've been constantly surprised by the way in which the Amnesty process has happened, that you find yourself confronted with multiple opponents for the same victims, but we've let that go by, Chairperson, we haven't made any point and nor are we making any point about it today. The only point here was that on what seemed to be a crucial issue, among all these people, nobody ever put it to anybody and that is the only point which I was trying to make, it was not meant as criticism against Mr Mapoma. In any Commission of Inquiry, you always have a Leader of Evidence whose duty, as we understand the law, has always been to assist the Committee either for or against the applicant, although I must say in this process it's always against the applicants, but be that as it may, but I am certainly not criticising Mr Mapoma in the role that he played here and I hope that that will be accepted as not having been criticism about him. CHAIRPERSON We all are in the legal profession. We execute our duties and whatever obtains during a trial, we take it that it is not referred to me per se, it's just for the execution of the duties. We appreciate that. I think you accept that too, Mr Mapoma. MR MAPOMA Chairperson I did not at all take it as a criticism on me, but the import of it Chairperson, what I want to correct, is an impression that is going to be given that the evidence that is given by the victims here is an evidence that is as a result of consultation between the victims and myself ...(indistinct) persons. I want that to be clear Chairperson, that is not the case. CHAIRPERSON I do appreciate, because we are so to speak in the same stable, I do appreciate that, but would you want to ask some questions here, Mr Mapoma? I was approaching it actually from that angle because you will recall that the witness Mrs Mokhele, when she said legal representatives, you were in that stable as well, so I just wanted to be absolutely certain. MR MAPOMA Yes, I appreciate that Chairperson, thank you for that. CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MAPOMA Mrs Mokhele, before the child was brought to you, did you have any contact with Nomasonto? MRS MOKHELE No, Chairperson, there was no contact. MR MAPOMA When last did you have contact with Nomasonto, if at all you did have contact with her? Okay, let me do it this way - sorry Chairperson. Let me ask you like this. After Nomasonto left South Africa, did you ever have contact with her? MRS MOKHELE No, Chairperson. MR MAPOMA And after the child was brought to you, did you ever have contact with her? MRS MOKHELE No, Chairperson, there was no contact. MR MAPOMA Thank you Chairperson, no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MAPOMA CHAIRPERSON Mr Malindi, any re-examination ? MR MALINDI None Chairperson. NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR MALINDI CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Members of the Panel, do you have any questions for the witness? MR LAX Just one, Chairperson, from my side. Did you find out about the child's birth when the child was born, or after the child was born, of after the child was born, before the child was brought to you? MRS MOKHELE No, Chairperson. MR LAX So did you not even know that Nomasonto had a child? MRS MOKHELE I did not know Chairperson. MR LAX So it must have been a very big surprise to you when two unknown men arrive at your house with a child and they say: "This is your son and daughter-in-law's child"? MRS MOKHELE Yes, Chairperson, that was a surprise. CHAIRPERSON Mr Sibanyoni. MR SIBANYONI Was your son married to Nomasonto? MRS MOKHELE They were not married legally. MR SIBANYONI But you were aware of the relationship between them? The relationship between Tsietsi and Nomasonto? MRS MOKHELE Yes I knew, Chairperson. MR SIBANYONI When these two men brought the child to you, didn't you ask them why they don't take it to the mother's parental home? MRS MOKHELE I just accepted the child. MR SIBANYONI Thank you no further questions, Mr Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Mr Malindi anything arising from what the Panel asked? MR MALINDI Nothing Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Mr Visser, anything? MR VISSER No thank you Chairperson. NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR VISSER CHAIRPERSON Mr Mapoma? MR MAPOMA Nothing, Chairperson, thank you. CHAIRPERSON Thank you Mrs Mokhele, you are excused. WITNESS EXCUSED CHAIRPERSON Who is your next witness, Mr Malindi? MR MALINDI Chairperson, I beg leave to call Mrs Mashiya. CHAIRPERSON She may take her place next to you. NOSGATI NORAH MASHIYA (sworn states) CHAIRPERSON Mr Malindi, you may proceed. MR MALINDI Thank you Chairperson. EXAMINATION BY MR MALINDI Mrs Mashiya, are you the mother of Nomasonto Mashiya? MRS MASHIYA Yes, Chairperson. MR MALINDI Who is one of the people who are subject of this hearing who disappeared since they went into exile? MRS MASHIYA That is so. MR MALINDI I would like you to tell the Committee when Nomasonto left South Africa for exile. MRS MASHIYA In 1987, I have forgotten, it can be around 1977. MR MALINDI Since she left for exile, were you able to communicate with her whilst she was outside of South Africa? MRS MASHIYA Yes, with a letter. MR VISSER I'm terribly sorry, Chairperson, I didn't get the question. Could it possibly be repeated for me? CHAIRPERSON Could you do that please, Mr Malindi? MR MALINDI Sure, Chairperson. Since Nomasonto left South Africa for exile, were you able to communicate with her? MRS MASHIYA Yes, Chairperson, through letters she was writing to me, she was writing to us. MR MALINDI Do you remember how often she used to write to you? MRS MASHIYA It could have been about four to five times. MR MALINDI When was the last time that she communicated with you? MRS MASHIYA I do not remember, but she wrote to us. I don't know whether it was when she wanted to come back, that's when she told us that she was pregnant. MR MALINDI As far as you can remember, was the last communication when she told you that she was pregnant? MRS MASHIYA Yes, she did write to us after that. She continued writing to us, that was not the last time. MR MALINDI Then you knew that she was pregnant and did you ever meet the child, if the child was born? MRS MASHIYA No, I did not meet with the child. I met a woman who came to tell us that Sonti has told her to tell us to go and fetch the child at a certain hotel. MR MALINDI Can you tell the Committee more about this woman who came to tell you to fetch the child? When did she come and what did she tell you and what did you do as a result of what she told you? MRS MASHIYA This woman came to us on a Saturday, but I forgot the month. She told us that she'd been told by - that she's been sent by Nomasonto. She came on Saturday and left the following day, on Sunday. Sonti had told her that we should go and fetch the child at a certain hotel. I told her that we do not have the passports, but she told us we can manage to go there using our I.D.'s. We left the following day, we left to Lesotho and it was the first time that we went to Lesotho. When we arrived, we could not enter the country using our I.D.s, we were told that we need to use our passports but we ...(indistinct) there, that is at the border gate. MR MALINDI After you were not allowed in, what did you do? MRS MASHIYA We went back home. When we arrived at home the two male people arrived with a car late in the afternoon and when they arrived, they told us that they had been sent by Sonti to bring the child and they told us that they have left the child at Mokhele's place. She had told them that if they were not present at home, they should take the child to the Mokhele family. They told us that they were sent by Sonti. We left that night to Mokhele family and when we arrived there, we found the child there and we were also give the letter which was sent together with the child. MR MALINDI Who gave you the letter? MRS MASHIYA These two people gave us the letter. MR MALINDI Did you read the letter before going to the Mokhele family? MRS MASHIYA We read the letter, I gave it to my daughter to read it for me. MR MALINDI And what did the letter say? MRS MASHIYA It was written in Zulu, but it was read by my daughter. She's the person who can explain what was written in that letter. MR MALINDI Did you yourself see the letter? Did you see the writing in the letter? MRS MASHIYA Yes, I did. MR MALINDI And do you personally know Nomasonto's handwriting? MRS MASHIYA I cannot read. MR MALINDI And then you say you then went to the Mokhele family after these men had been to your house? MRS MASHIYA Yes, Chairperson, that is myself and my husband, we went to the Mokhele family to see the child. MR MALINDI And then when you got there, did you find the child? MRS MASHIYA Yes, Chairperson, the child was there. MR MALINDI After the child - sorry Chairperson, may I rephrase? The day that these two men came to your house and they gave you this letter and told you that they had left Nomasonto's child with the Mokhele family, did they say they left the child on the same day, or on another day? MRS MASHIYA Yes, Chairperson, because we had just arrived from Lesotho, they arrived after our arrival from Lesotho. MR MALINDI After this child was delivered to the Mokhele family and there had been these meetings between the two families, did Nomasonto ever communicate with you to ask maybe whether you received the child or not? MRS MASHIYA No, Chairperson, she never wrote us a letter after that. MR MALINDI To this day you have not heard from Nomasonto? MRS MASHIYA Yes, Chairperson, we have never heard anything from her. MR MALINDI Thank you Chairperson, no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MALINDI CHAIRPERSON Thank you Mr Malindi. Mr Visser any questions? MR VISSER Yes please, thank you Mr Chairman. CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR VISSER Are you Zulu speaking? MRS MASHIYA Yes, but I do understand Sotho. MR VISSER And your husband, is he Zulu? MRS MASHIYA Yes, Chairperson. MR VISSER Is your family Zulu speaking? MRS MASHIYA Yes, Chairperson, we are Zulu. MR VISSER Was Nomasonto also a Zulu? MRS MASHIYA Yes, Chairperson, she was my daughter. MR VISSER Now you say that Nomasonto left, as I heard you, for exile in 1987, but it could have been around 1977, is that what you said? MRS MASHIYA I said 87, not 97. MR VISSER Now in 1987, was there a relationship that you knew about between her and Mr Tsietsi Mokhele? MRS MASHIYA Yes, I did know. MR VISSER I see. And were they then both, Tsietsi as well as Nomasonto, were they then both still in South Africa? MRS MASHIYA Yes, when I knew about their relationship. MR VISSER Did Nomasonto have trouble with the police while she was in South Africa? MRS MASHIYA No, I don't remember. MR VISSER Did the police ever come to your home and harass you at your home? MRS MASHIYA They did not arrest her, but they were looking for her. They used to come looking for Nomasonto, that is after she had left. MR VISSER After she had left? MRS MASHIYA Yes. MR VISSER And did they then search your home? MRS MASHIYA Yes, they would come and search in all the bedrooms. MR VISSER Were they looking for letters? MRS MASHIYA They told us that they were looking for Nomasonto. MR VISSER Were they also looking when they were searching, were they looking for letters? MRS MASHIYA They said that they were looking for Nomasonto, they did not lift up the property while they were searching. MR VISSER Did you know that the police intercepted mail during those times when they were looking for people? Did you know that? MRS MASHIYA No ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON It would be difficult, she's unlettered. It would be difficult for the witness, she's unlettered. MR VISSER I'll accept that Chairperson. Perhaps it's a matter more for argument, if necessary, than for cross-examination. When Nomasonto wrote to you, you say you can't read, I take it you also can't write then. MRS MASHIYA Yes. MR VISSER Did you reply to Nomasonto's letters through someone else? Did your daughter write on your behalf to Nomasonto? MRS MASHIYA No, we did not reply, because we were afraid of the police, we were just receiving the letters from her, we never answered her letters. MR VISSER So you were aware that there was a danger in writing letters because of the police, is that correct? MRS MASHIYA Yes. MR VISSER Now did I understand you correctly to say that after Nomasonto left South Africa to exile, she wrote to you four or five times? Am I correct in what I heard you say? MRS MASHIYA Yes, that's correct. MR VISSER And then at one stage you said, you later corrected it but at one stage you said the last time you received a letter from her was when she was pregnant, do you remember that? MRS MASHIYA No, that was not the last letter, she wrote to us after that. MR VISSER Okay, that's how you corrected it later, but my point is this, were you first informed of the fact that she was present in a letter written by her to you? MR LAX Sorry, you used the word present, do you mean pregnant? MR VISSER Pregnant, I'm sorry, did I say present? Pregnant. Let me repeat it for you, I don't want to confuse you. Did you hear for the first time that Nomasonto was pregnant from a letter that she wrote to you telling you that she was pregnant? MRS MASHIYA Yes, that was the first time that she wrote to us. MR VISSER How certain are you that she left in 1987? CHAIRPERSON I don't think the answer elicited by Mr Malindi was that she was certain, she mentioned a date and said: "I am not sure". MR VISSER Yes, Chairperson, that's why my first question to her was how certain is she when Nomasonto left, because she also said 77. CHAIRPERSON Yes, that's right, you may proceed. MR LAX Just while you're on there, she also said in reply to your question: "It wasn't 1997" and you never even said 97, so as far as I can see, she's totally confused and you haven't cleared it up with her. She used 97 when you said 87 or 77, so just as puzzled. MR VISSER Well let me try to clear that up. Can you tell us today from your own recollection, with certainty, when Nomasonto left South Africa to exile, to go into exile? MRS MASHIYA I think it's 1987. MR SIBANYONI Maybe I should ask you this question, ... CHAIRPERSON Could we just have order from audience, she's not being put into a trap and we don't want - I wouldn't and I resent it that when a witness is talking, that the audience would participate or try to correct the witness, please let's have order. These proceedings are not different from the Court proceedings and I don't want to exercise my rights because this is a different process, but should I be forced to, I think I will. MR SIBANYONI Thank you Mr Chairperson. Mrs Mashiya, are you able to recall years? MR VISSER The question is ... MRS MASHIYA I do not remember, this happened many years ago, I do not remember. INTERPRETER During what year is it presently? MRS MASHIYA Now? I don't know. I don't know. MR VISSER Thank you ...(indistinct). Look, the point is simply this, that Nomasonto's child must have been born around 1986 for him to be almost two years old. 1985 in fact, to be two years old in 1987 when he was brought to Mrs Mokhele, isn't that so? She must have been pregnant in 1985, that's what I'm putting to you. MRS MASHIYA Well I don't know. MR LAX Perhaps this might help. Do you have any idea how long it was that she was in exile when the child arrived? In other words, how long had she been in exile when the child arrived, how many years was it? MRS MASHIYA It was many years. I don't know how many years, but she had been in exile for many years. MR LAX You see, as far as we understand, the child arrived in 1987 and if she'd been in exile for many years, then she must have left many years previous to that. MRS MASHIYA Yes, I don't know the years, really. MR VISSER I'm going to step off this issue, Chairperson, it's not that important. What did she write to you about when she wrote to you, can you remember? MRS MASHIYA She wrote to us telling us that she was pregnant, but those letters were read to me by my daughter. MR VISSER Yes, what did she in those letters? MRS MASHIYA I do not remember, because I was not the person who was reading those letters. MR VISSER No, with all due respect to you, whether you read it yourself, or whether somebody else read them to you, that's not the issues. The point is you knew what was in those letters, isn't that so? MRS MASHIYA Yes, I did know then, but I have forgotten. MR VISSER That's also fair enough. Let me try to prod your memory. Did she write to you and say to you that she had undergone military training? MRS MASHIYA No. MR VISSER Did she ever tell you that she had joined MK and that she was an MK soldier? What's the answer to ... MRS MASHIYA Yes. MR VISSER What did MK soldiers do? What do you think they did? MRS MASHIYA I don't know they were working there, I don't know what they were doing there. MR VISSER Weren't they planting bombs in a country and blowing up places? MRS MASHIYA She did not tell me about that, I don't know. MR VISSER Didn't you know that from your own knowledge? MRS MASHIYA No, I don't even know a bomb. MR VISSER Are you serious? Are you absolutely serious that you didn't know that MK was involved in a struggle in this country and that they were fighting a war, didn't you know that? MRS MASHIYA I knew that they were fighting for liberation, but I did not know about the bombs. MR VISSER Alright. So you say on a Saturday a stranger, a woman arrives, I take it at your place? MRS MASHIYA Yes. MR VISSER And she says that Nomasonto says you must come and fetch her baby from a hotel in Lesotho. MRS MASHIYA Yes. MR VISSER You then didn't even know that there was a baby that was born, that was alive, you only heard the last time from her that she was pregnant, is that right? MRS MASHIYA Yes. MR VISSER Were you surprised? MRS MASHIYA Yes, I was surprised. MR VISSER Did you inquire from this lady what this was about? Did you ask her: "What did Nomasonto say, why must I come and fetch the child?" MRS MASHIYA She said she wanted to go back to school. MR VISSER Who? Nomasonto? MRS MASHIYA Yes. MR VISSER But what has that got to do with where the child is? MRS MASHIYA She wanted to bring the child back home, because she wanted to go back to school, that is what this lady said to us. MR VISSER Let me ask you this, were you satisfied with that explanation? MRS MASHIYA Yes, I did, because I didn't know anything. MR VISSER Alright. And you then leave for Lesotho, did you go with your husband? MRS MASHIYA Yes, that's correct, with my husband. MR VISSER And you're absolutely certain that you had to fetch the child from Lesotho, not from the Free State, from Ladybrand for example? You had to fetch the child from Lesotho. MRS MASHIYA She said in Lesotho, that's what the woman said to us, at a certain hotel in Lesotho. MR VISSER Did you take the particulars of this person that came to tell you this, in case something went wrong, so that you can contact her again? MRS MASHIYA No, we did not. MR VISSER Didn't it occur to you that due to these strange circumstances, that it's important to know where you could contact this person again? MRS MASHIYA We were happy that we were going to fetch the child in Lesotho at an hotel. MR VISSER Alright. You say she came on a Saturday, she left on a Sunday, you can't remember the month? MRS MASHIYA Yes, I do not remember the month. MR VISSER Do you remember the year? MRS MASHIYA I said it was 87. MR VISSER On what day did you leave for Lesotho? Not the date, just tell me, was it Monday, Tuesday? MRS MASHIYA This woman arrived on Saturday and left on Sunday. We left on Monday. MR VISSER Are you quite sure of that? MRS MASHIYA Yes. MR VISSER Is that something you remember well? MRS MASHIYA We left on Sunday, I think. MR VISSER The Sunday or the Monday? MRS MASHIYA She left on Sunday, we also left on Sunday. MR VISSER All that I'm asking you is, is this something that you remember well and that you're reasonably certain about, that's all I'm asking you. MRS MASHIYA I have forgotten about it, but this is what I think, I can't remember. MR VISSER Oh I see. Alright. Well let me put it to you that as we know the facts, also from Mrs Mokhele's evidence, the child was brought to her on the 24th of December. The 24th of December was a Thursday and you told us, you told this Committee today that the child was brought on the very same day that you came back after you'd gone to Lesotho. Do you understand what I'm saying? MRS MASHIYA When we came back from Lesotho, when we arrived at home the child was already there. MR VISSER Alright. How did you go to Lesotho? What form of transport did you use? MRS MASHIYA We used the long distance taxi. MR VISSER And you were on your way to an hotel? MRS MASHIYA Yes. MR VISSER Give us the name of the hotel. MRS MASHIYA She told us from the long taxi we will see the hotel, it's not far from the taxi rank. We will see that hotel, that's what she told us. MR VISSER Alright, so it's an hotel close to the taxi rank, is that what you're saying? MRS MASHIYA Yes. MR VISSER Did she tell you and did you ask her what Nomasonto was doing at this hotel? MRS MASHIYA She told us that she was there with a baby. She was waiting for us there for us to fetch the child there at the hotel. MR VISSER Just staying at the hotel or working there? MRS MASHIYA She was not working there, she said we'll find her there. MR VISSER Any time you arrived, day or night, you will find her there? MRS MASHIYA Yes. That's what we were told. We left because we knew that we would find her there. MR VISSER Did you infer from that Nomasonto was living at the hotel? MRS MASHIYA She was not staying in that hotel, she just said that we'll find her there at the hotel. This woman told us that Nomasonto was staying at her place in Maseru. MR VISSER Why didn't she say: "Go to Nomasonto's place in Maseru" to pick up the child there? This is a strange situation, don't you agree? CHAIRPERSON It would be difficult for Mr Visser, this is relayed to her. I think that question would be slightly unfair to her that somebody comes and we should - she should imagine what Nomasonto said to this lady and why she should think that should happen, I think that's unfair. That's an unfair question, I won't allow that question to this witness. MR VISSER As it pleases you Mr Chairman. Anyway, you made no further inquiries from this person, you just accepted at face value what she told you and you went off to this hotel? MRS MASHIYA Yes. MR VISSER I want you to think back and to tell this Committee when the last time was when you received the four or five letters from Nomasonto which you gave evidence about. When was the last time that you received a letter from here, can you tell us? MRS MASHIYA After the child was brought to us, she never wrote to us. MR VISSER When was the last time, can you tell us? If you can't just say so. When was the last time that you received an letter from Nomasonto while she was in exile? MRS MASHIYA I don't remember, I can't. MR VISSER Yes. But am I correct in drawing the inference from your evidence, that she didn't correspond with you regularly, it happened very seldom over the period of time that she left for exile, is that correct? It was seldom that she corresponded with you. MRS MASHIYA She was writing to us regularly. MR VISSER With all due respect, five letters over many years, what does that signify to you? That's all on your evidence. MRS MASHIYA Yes I think it could be five letters. MR VISSER Over many years, you said many years. MRS MASHIYA Yes, she was writing to us because we used to keep those letters. We burned those letters after we were being harassed by the police because we realised that they would put us in danger, that's when we burned those letters. MR VISSER Why didn't you then concede that when I asked you whether the police were looking for letters? When I asked you that, why didn't you say: "Ja, we burned the letters because we were afraid that the police would get hold of them"? MR MALINDI Chairperson, before the witness answers, I don't know if the question is fair. The witness doesn't know what the police are looking for and I think that was the gist of her answer. They came looking for Nomasonto mainly and they searched the house. She doesn't know what they are looking for. It's not fair to say: "Why didn't you tell me that they were looking for letters". MR VISSER Chairperson, I asked her specifically whether they were looking for letters, there was no issue about it, no question about it, I asked her specifically that question. CHAIRPERSON I do not recall, but I remember, I'm subject to correction, what I remember is that when you said that police were intercepting letters, I said it's unfair, this witness wouldn't know that, but I'm not saying you did not, I'm not staying that, you may restate your question. MR LAX Sorry, the other thing she did say in her answer was that they didn't look under beds and cupboards, what have you, they were just looking for her, that's what she said, so it was clear from her evidence that she didn't think they were looking for letters. MR VISSER The point I was trying to make and the issue that the whole line of questioning was directed at, was that there was a danger connected to corresponding with a person for whom the police were looking. MR LAX Yes, but that was her corresponding with Nomasonto, not Nomasonto corresponding with her. That was the context within which the letter was asked. MR VISSER Chairperson, with great respect, ...(intervention) MR LAX I'm busy speaking, please don't interrupt me. When I'm finished then you can say your point. CHAIRPERSON Let's just have some order. Yes, just finish off. MR LAX Sorry, my mike just got cut off and I couldn't finish what I was saying. The point I'm trying to say is that her evidence on this issue was in relation to the searches, then you went on to a question of did she write back to her and she said: "No, we didn't write back to her because we were afraid of the police", that's where the issue of the fear then arose, so the two weren't said in the same breath, in the same way. That's why I'm backing up what the Chairperson says. CHAIRPERSON Mr Visser rather than talking about this a lot, I would say, let's start, let's have a build-up to that, I think it would do us more good. MR VISSER Chairperson, I'm going to make it easier than that, I'm going to leave that because there's enough on record for the point that I've wanted to make. It's already on record, in my submission, because how a letter written by this witness to Nomasonto could ever have been a danger is something I don't understand. One would imagine that it is common sense that if the police came into the house and found a letter written by Nomasonto, the very person for whom they were looking, that would have represented the danger, but Chairperson, I'm not going to go on with that and frankly Chairperson, I have no further questions for this witness. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VISSER CHAIRPERSON Thank you Mr Visser. Mr Mapoma, do you have any questions for the witness? MR MAPOMA Just a few Chairperson. CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MAPOMA Ma'am where were you born? MRS MASHIYA I was born in the Free State. MR MAPOMA Where, actually? MRS MASHIYA I don't know, but I was born in the Free State and I grew up in the Transvaal, but I was born here in the Free State. MR MAPOMA Where in the Transvaal did you grow up? MRS MASHIYA At the farm. MR MAPOMA Did you ever go to school? MRS MASHIYA No, I used to look after my father's cattle. MR MAPOMA Yes. When you left for Lesotho to look for - I mean to fetch the child from Nomasonto, did you return on the same day? MRS MASHIYA Yes. MR MAPOMA Thank you Chairperson, no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MAPOMA CHAIRPERSON Thank you Mr Mapoma. Any re-examination Mr Malindi? MR MALINDI Thank you Chairperson, just two questions. RE-EXAMINATION BY MR MALINDI Mrs Mashiya, you testified that you knew of the relationship between Nomasonto and Tsietsi. MRS MASHIYA Yes, I did know. MR MALINDI Did you know that Tsietsi went into exile? MRS MASHIYA Yes, I knew after that he left for exile after. MR MALINDI In relation to Tsietsi leaving for exile, when did Nomasonto leave? How soon after Tsietsi or how long before Tsietsi, or did they leave at the same time? MRS MASHIYA Nomasonto left first. MR MALINDI Thank you Chairperson, no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MALINDI CHAIRPERSON Panel Members, Mr Lax any questions for the witness. MR LAX Thank you Chair. There was just one question. I was puzzled by one of your answers to Mr Visser where you said that the letter that you got telling you that she was pregnant, was the first letter. Those were the words that were translated, did I understand that correctly? MRS MASHIYA Yes. MR LAX So are you saying that before she fell pregnant, you didn't get other letters from her? MRS MASHIYA I said this was the last and she wrote to us thereafter. MR LAX Yes. But I've just asked you, was this the first letter? You said yes. MRS MASHIYA Yes. CHAIRPERSON Mrs Mashiya, before Nomasonto fell pregnant, did she write to you? MRS MASHIYA Yes she wrote to us while she was in exile and told us that she was pregnant. MR LAX Sorry, I'm now even more puzzled because the question was before she became pregnant, did she write to you. You said: "Yes, she wrote to us when she became pregnant". Did she write to you before she became pregnant, or was that the first letter you got from here? That's what I'm trying to understand. MRS MASHIYA Before she told us that she was pregnant, she sent us a Christmas Card. MR LAX And before the Christmas Card, had you had any other letters from her? MRS MASHIYA Yes, we used to receive letters from her. MR LAX Thank you Chairperson, that just clarifies that for me. CHAIRPERSON Thank you Mr Lax. Mr Sibanyoni. MR SIBANYONI Thank you Mr Chairperson, I've got no questions. CHAIRPERSON Mr Malindi, anything arising from questions from the Panel? MR MALINDI Nothing Chairperson. NO FURTHER RE-EXAMINATION BY MR MALINDI CHAIRPERSON Mr Visser? MR VISSER No thank you Chairperson. NO QUESTIONS BY MR VISSER CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Mr Mapoma. MR MAPOMA No thank you Chairperson. NO QUESTIONS BY MR MAPOMA CHAIRPERSON ...(not translated) WITNESS EXCUSED MR MALINDI Chairperson, I beg leave to call Thobeka Ngono. MR MAPOMA Chairperson, may I ask an indulgence? May I ask for a short adjournment, a call of nature is just demanding some ... COMMITTEE ADJOURNS ON RESUMPTION CHAIRPERSON Thank you. THOBEKA MARTHA NGONO (sworn states) CHAIRPERSON Martha, that's the middle name, I did not get the surname. MS NGONO Ngono. CHAIRPERSON Mr Malindi, you may proceed. MR MALINDI Thank you Chairperson. EXAMINATION BY MR MALINDI Ms Ngono are you related to Mbulelo Ngono? MS NGONO Yes. MR MALINDI Who is one of the people that disappeared in Lesotho and whose case is a subject of this hearing? MS NGONO That is correct. MR MALINDI How are you related to Mbulelo? MS NGONO I am his sister. MR MALINDI Can you tell the Committee when Mbulelo left home to go into exile, if you can remember? MS NGONO Mbulelo left in 1980. MR MALINDI Since 1980, after he left, was the family in a position to know where he was? MS NGONO Yes, we knew where he was. MR MALINDI How did you come to know? MS NGONO He wrote us a letter when he was in the Transkei and my mother paid him a visit. MR MALINDI Do you remember when that was? MS NGONO It was in 1985. MR MALINDI Was the family able to communicate with him in any other manner? MS NGONO My mother visited him in 1985 while he was in Transkei. MR MALINDI Was this the first communication between your mother and Mbulelo since he left in 1980? MS NGONO They used to phone each other. MR MALINDI Who used to phone who? MS NGONO My mother would phone Mbulelo. I beg your pardon, Mbulelo would phone my mother. MR MALINDI And where would Mbulelo phone your mother? Was Mbulelo phoning your mother at the house where your mother stayed? MS NGONO We never used to have a telephone, he would get a message from the house of a relative. MR MALINDI After ...(intervention) MR LAX Sorry, it was translated as "he would get a message from a house of a relative". INTERPRETER I beg your pardon, I was supposed to say she would get a message from the house of a relative where they used to communicate. MR MALINDI And are you able to tell the Committee over which period, in terms of years or months, this communication took place between Mbulelo and the family? MS NGONO He phoned in 1985, before my mother could pay him a visit. I cannot remember the month. MR MALINDI And after 1985 when your mother saw him in the Transkei, was there any further communication? MS NGONO They again met in Lesotho. MR MALINDI Do you remember when that was? MS NGONO It was in 1987. MR MALINDI And was your mother alone when she went to see him in Lesotho? MS NGONO He was in my sister's company, Bukelwa Ngono. MR MALINDI Chairperson, may we correct the gender again, the translation came as "He was with my sister", it's supposed to be: "she was with my sister." CHAIRPERSON Yes, could we correct that for the record. I'll switch over to English because I've been listening to Xhosa. I'll also switch over to English. Could you repeat that please, for the record. MS NGONO She went to visit my brother in Lesotho, my mother that is, she was in my sister's company. MR MALINDI Thank you Chairperson. You yourself, did you ever speak to your brother directly, or meet him directly? MS NGONO In 1987 I was schooling in Lesotho, we used to meet. MR MALINDI ; When did you go to Lesotho? MS NGONO January 1987. MR MALINDI Was that the first time, in 1987, that you met him directly? MS NGONO Yes, that is correct. MR MALINDI Did you meet him only this once in 1987? MS NGONO No, we met more than once, up until September 1987, when I did not know where he had gone to. MR MALINDI And then after September 1987, was that the last time you saw him? MS NGONO I saw him again in February, the following year. MR MALINDI Was that 1988? MS NGONO Yes, that is correct. MR MALINDI When you saw him in February 1988, did he tell you if anything extra ordinary had happened to him? MS NGONO Yes, he told me, he came to my school, he told me that he had a narrow escape and he believed that he will never die again. MR MALINDI Did you know what he was referring to when he said he had a narrow escape and if he didn't die, he would never die again? MS NGONO He didn't explain in details. I just assumed that he was in some kind of trouble. MR MALINDI Did he tell you that he was arrested by the South African Police or the South African Special Branch? MS NGONO No, he never mentioned that to me. MR MALINDI After you met him in February, did you hear anything again relating to him, or not? MS NGONO As I used to visit them frequently in Roma, they told me to stop visiting them after February, because the situation was tense there in Roma. I remained where I was. Lindelwa's sister came to me in March, telling me that Mbulelo was arrested. MR MALINDI Do you know Lindelwa's surname, the Lindelwa who came to tell you that Mbulelo has been arrested? MS NGONO Yes, I know, the surname is Mabece. MR MALINDI And do you know Lindelwa's sister's name? MS NGONO Yes, I know her name, her name is Nandipa. MR MALINDI Who did she say arrested Mbulelo? MR VISSER With all this hearsay evidence, Chairperson, I will expect at lest my Learned Friend to indicate to you that this person is going to be called. CHAIRPERSON What is the position Mr Malindi, because this has what has been related to her. Are you going to call ...(indistinct)? MR MALINDI Chairperson, Lindelwa and Nandipa are some of the witnesses that we have not been able to make available for the hearing. I will submit Chairperson, that this kind of hearsay evidence be allowed on the basis that I will lay through the witness, that these witnesses, we've been unable to make available to the Committee. CHAIRPERSON Mr Visser. MR VISSER Chairperson, as we understand the law, a Commission of Inquiry in terms of the Commission's Act, has a very wide range of powers and authority. They may even hear evidence, although the evidence is hearsay. We're well aware of that, but when it goes to the crux of the matter, Chairperson, one would expect to hear first-hand evidence. If one accepts this evidence that this witness is going to give on the basis of which it's tendered as pure hearsay evidence and it is regarded no higher than that, then perhaps I shouldn't have an objection, but certainly, Chairperson, if it's going to be used against the applicant, then we submit that you would require some better evidence. CHAIRPERSON Obviously the test would kick in Mr Visser. MR VISSER Perhaps I should just leave it and let the witness give the evidence, Chairperson. After all we're here to reconcile, as your banner says, and to find out what the truth is of the matter, so perhaps we should just leave it. CHAIRPERSON You may proceed Mr Malindi. MR MALINDI Thank you Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON The question was, did she tell you which Police it was. MR MALINDI Thank you Chairperson. Did she tell you which Police arrested Mbulelo? MS NGONO Yes, she told me. MR MALINDI As a result of the information that Mbulelo had been arrested, were any steps taken by the family? MS NGONO I went to the offices of the United Nations. MR MALINDI With what purpose? MS NGONO I wanted them to assist me in looking for Mbulelo. MR MALINDI Were you or the family ever then brought to a situation where you found out what happened to Mbulelo? MS NGONO No we never heard a thing thereafter. MR MALINDI Where your brother stayed, did you know who else he stayed with or not? MS NGONO He was staying with Mbilo Makwageza and Fana. MR MALINDI And after you got this report that he was arrested, you never heard anything - or did you hear anything from him ever again? MS NGONO We never heard anything. MR MALINDI Thank you Chairperson, no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MALINDI CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Any cross-examination, Mr Visser? MR VISSER Thank you Mr Chairman. CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR VISSER Mbulelo left in 1980, is that correct, to go into exile? MS NGONO That is correct. MR VISSER The purpose was that he was joining, as you say in paragraph 4 at page 35 of the bundle "To join the African National Congress in exile", is that right? MS NGONO That is correct. MR VISSER Do you know whether he joined Umkhonto weSizwe and became a soldier? MS NGONO Yes, I know that. MR VISSER While he was in Lesotho, what was his function there? What was he doing as far as Umkhonto weSizwe was concerned? MR NGONO As a person who is not a member, I was not in a position to know his activities. MR VISSER Would you accept that he was planning to execute attacks on, well attacks in South Africa, would you accept that? MS NGONO If it was their duty to do so, maybe that is correct. MR VISSER Yes. It was put here by somebody that he was involved in an attack on police in the Transkei. Do you know about that? MS NGONO I heard that. MR VISSER Do you also know that he was arrested by the South African Police in Qwa-Qwa, as it was put here to one of my applicants? MS NGONO No, I do not know that. MR VISSER He never told you about that? MS NGONO No, not at all. MR VISSER Chairperson, my attorney is just telling me that I might be again, and this is the third time, confusing K K with Tax, so I withdraw that question. CHAIRPERSON Forget the question that was asked and as well as your answer Ms Ngono. You may proceed, Mr Visser. MR VISSER Thank you Chairperson. Now as I understand your evidence today, Ms Ngono, you said that since he left in 1980 there was contact with him in 1985 when your mother went to visit him in the Transkei, is that correct? MS NGONO That is correct. MR VISSER Now I don't quite understand this. I thought you said he left the country, that is South Africa, to go into exile. Did he then leave for the Transkei in 1980? CHAIRPERSON He was in the Transkei in 1985. MR VISSER That's why I'm asking her whether he left in 1980 to go to the Transkei. Where did he go to in 1980, as far as you know? MS NGONO He went to exile. MR VISSER Where? MS NGONO I have never been to exile, I don't know where he had gone to. MR VISSER Yes, you see, exile isn't a place, you go into exile to a place to get away from another place. You don't know where he went? MS NGONO I do not know where he went to. MR VISSER Alright. Did your mother not tell you in 1985 that she was going to visit Ngono in the Transkei, or did she tell you? MS NGONO She told me. MR VISSER You see then I don't understand your paragraph 5. First of all, can the bundle page 35 to 37 be shown to you please and I want to ask you whether you recognise this document at all. MS NGONO Yes, I know this document. MR VISSER Is this a statement that was made by you? MS NGONO Yes, that is correct. MR VISSER On the 8th of March of this year, 2000? MS NGONO That is correct. MR VISSER And who was this person, Mr Mbete that says he took the statement? Who is he? Where does he fit in? MS NGONO This was a TRC investigator. MR VISSER Alright. And did you tell him what is contained in this document? MS NGONO Please repeat your question. MR VISSER Did you tell him that which is contained in this document? Is that what you told him? MS NGONO That is correct. MR VISSER And was the document then typed after you told him what you know of this matter? MS NGONO Yes, that is correct. Perhaps it was typed thereafter. MR VISSER Yes. Was it read back to you to confirm that he got his notes of what you said, correctly? MS NGONO It was never read to me. MR VISSER Well let me ask you this then. You signed this document that is contained at page 35 to 37, did you sign any statement? MS NGONO After the document was typed, I was never given a chance to sign. As he was taking the statement from me, he was writing on a rough paper. MR VISSER Now if this document says: "We never heard from him", that's Mbulelo and I'm adding since 1980 when he left for exile, "until 1987, when my later mother, Nancy Miseka Ngono, visited him in Lesotho, would that be correct? MR MALINDI Chairperson, the witness has just indicated that there's a problem with her translation. MR LAX She must take her hand off the front of that thing. If she closes those two buttons there won't be any sound. MR VISSER Let me repeat the question to you, if the document which purports to be a statement made by you, says in paragraph 4, read together with paragraph 5, that after 1980 when Mbulelo left for exile to join the ANC, you never heard from him again until 1987, would that be correct? MS NGONO No, that statement is not true. MR VISSER Because of what you told us today, that your mother went to visit him in 1985? MS NGONO That is correct. MR VISSER Who is this relative who brought the message to you about the telephone call from Mbulelo? MS NGONO It's back at home. MR VISSER Alright. Now please explain this to me, because I don't quite understand. Did you receive letters from Mbulelo after 1980, either you or your mother or your sister. MS NGONO He once wrote a letter to my mother, but most of the time he would call her. MR VISSER Right, through this relative? MS NGONO Yes, that is correct. MR VISSER And when did these calls start? Can you remember? After 1980, when did he start calling your mother? MS NGONO I think he started in 1985. MR VISSER 1985. Yes. So is it fair to say that since he left in 1980, there were long periods of time that you heard nothing from him? MS NGONO Yes, there was a time when he was very quiet. MR VISSER In 1987 who visited him in Lesotho, that is Mbulelo? MS NGONO It's my mother and my sister. MR VISSER Not yourself? MS NGONO I was already in Lesotho at that time. MR VISSER Listen to my question please. You are telling this Committee about a visit that took place in 1987 where your mother went to visit Mbulelo, is that correct? MS NGONO Please repeat your question. MR VISSER You're telling this Committee about an occasion in 1987 when your mother visited Mbulelo in Lesotho, is that correct? MS NGONO Yes, that's correct. MR VISSER And you say she was accompanied by your sister on that visit, on that occasion, is that correct? MS NGONO Yes. MR VISSER Now I'm asking you, did you visit with your mother and your sister, Mbulelo, on that occasion? MS NGONO Yes, I was also present. MR VISSER Why didn't you tell the Committee about that, that you were also present? You told us that only your mother and your sister went to visit him. MS NGONO I used to see him all the time, I didn't see the point of mentioning that again. I have already mentioned that I was in Lesotho at the time of their visit. MR VISSER Well, seeing that you were there, what was talked about with Mbulelo at the time, between your mother and him, your sister and him, yourself and him? What did you talk about? MS NGONO They were just looking at him. They just went there to visit him. MR VISSER Did they talk about normal things, family matters and so on? MS NGONO He was asking them about family matters, because he hasn't seen them for a very long time. MR VISSER Was he telling them and yourself about what he was doing? MS NGONO No, he never mentioned that. MR VISSER But you knew he was an MK soldier and he had been military trained, not so? MS NGONO Yes, we knew that. MR VISSER When in 1987, did this visit take place, can you tell us? MS NGONO Though I cannot remember well, I think it was during the month of June. MR VISSER June. Did he mention at all his intention to go away from Lesotho at that time? MS NGONO No, he never mentioned that. MR VISSER Yes. So were you surprised in September when you didn't hear from him again? MS NGONO He just disappeared but I didn't inquire, but his other comrades were around and I would see them all the time. MR VISSER That's not the question. When you didn't hear from Mbulelo in September 1987, did that surprise you? MS NGONO No, I was never surprised. MR VISSER Yes, because he was going on missions and he would leave without telling you where he was going, isn't that the reason? MS NGONO Yes, that is correct. MR VISSER Yes. You see the one thing I don't understand, you must please tell us whether this is right or wrong, paragraph 7 of this statement of yours, at page 36 of the bundle, says "After that visit," now we know that's in June 1987, "we never saw him again until we learned in 1988 that he had disappeared." Is that statement correct? MS NGONO No, that is not true. MR VISSER Can you explain why this has been put into a statement that pretends to be your statement? Can you explain that? MS NGONO I'll read it to you "After that visit we never saw him again until we learned in 1988 that he had disappeared in Roma and Lesotho." MR LAX Sorry, the question is, can you explain why that appears in your statement, it's been a long time since the question was asked. MS NGONO I think it is an error a misprint. MR VISSER Well, alright. And while we're at that paragraph, if you read on it says "Where he was together with his girlfriend, Lindelwa Mabece", do you see that there? Is that correct, or is that also wrong, a misprint? MS NGONO On the day of his arrest, he was with Lindelwa Mabece, that is true. MR VISSER Is that what you were told by Mabece's sister in that conversation which you told us about earlier? MS NGONO She told me that it was herself, Lindelwa Mabece, Nandipa Mabece and Mbulelo. MR VISSER Yes. Is that why you stated that in this paragraph, it's because of what she told you? MS NGONO I don't understand when you are saying that. MR VISSER Well you know it's very simple really, you don't have personal knowledge of this, do you? MS NGONO They came to tell me. MR VISSER That's what I'm asking you. Thank you. Now you don't intend to say in that paragraph that Mbulelo was living with his girlfriend, do you, or are you saying that? MS NGONO Mbulelo was staying in so many places. MR VISSER Thank you. Because you see, the reason why I ask you is there seems to be a bit of confusion here as to whether he was living with his girlfriend or whether he was living in another house. Can you tell us what the position was? You also said today that he was living with Mbilo and Fana, as I heard you, is that correct? CHAIRPERSON May you repeat your question Mr Visser? MR VISSER Perhaps to make it brief, as far as you're concerned, Mbulelo lived with Mpilo and what I heard you to say, Fana, is that right? MS NGONO Yes, that is true. MR VISSER As far as you're aware, he wasn't living with Lindelwa Mabece? MS NGONO All I know is that he used to visit Lindelwa as his girlfriend. MR VISSER I'll take it that that's an affirmation. Now, you see this misprint is very confusing in paragraph 7 because you see it says "after that visit in 1987, we never saw him again until we learned in 1988 that he had disappeared" and today you told this Committee that after February 1988 you were told by them to stop visiting them, I take it that them is Mabece and Mbulelo, am I correct? MS NGONO Please repeat your question. MR VISSER Did you give evidence today to say that after February 1988 you were told by them to stop visiting them? MS NGONO He did not say that in February, and it was not himself and Lindelwa, Lindelwa was just a girlfriend, she was not involved in Mbulelo's activities, it was himself and Mbilo who told me to stop visiting them in Roma. MR VISSER Alright. He told you that personally, face to face? He didn't send a message to you, you spoke to him and he told you that, is that correct? MS NGONO Yes, they told me so. MR VISSER Would you agree with me that if that is so, this sentence cannot be correct? "After that visit in 1987, we never saw him again until 1988", that's in direct conflict, do you agree with me? MS NGONO What I disagree with is the fact that you say we never heard of him after 1988. I saw him in February of 1988. MR VISSER Yes. CHAIRPERSON I don't think you follow. If we have regard to page 35, what counsel is asking you, that if you look at paragraph 5 up to paragraph 7, there's no flow. Would I be correct, Mr Visser? MR VISSER Well there's no mention of her seeing him at all, yes. MR LAX Just to put it a different way, what's being suggested to you is that this paragraph is incorrect, in other words, what it reads is as if you never saw him from 1985 ever again. In other words - sorry, I beg your pardon, from 1987 ever again. Okay? And clearly on the strength of what you've told us that's not correct. MS NGONO That is not true. MR VISSER You see there's also another possibility and that is that what you said in your statement was in fact true and that you thought of this visit in 1988 afterwards, that that's an afterthought. MR LAX Sorry, what visit? MR VISSER The visit where she was told by him and Mbilo not to visit them any further or any longer in Roma. MR LAX When you used the visit, she was at school in Maseru at the time. MR VISSER I asked her specifically whether he'd sent a message or whether this was a face to face meeting with Mbulelo where she was told not to visit him any longer, and she said: "He told me personally". MR LAX You're taking offence far too quickly, we're talking at cross-purposes. We're on the same page actually, we're saying the same thing. CHAIRPERSON I think the way you put it, it's correct thus far, up to this sentence. You may proceed Mr Visser, I'm with you. MR VISSER I just want to be careful not to be misleading as far as the witness is concerned. Frankly I don't understand what the problem is, we are certainly at cross purposes, I'm not quite sure. Let me make it as simple as possible. You told us that Mbulelo told you in 1988, after February 1988 not to visit him any more or any longer in Roma, is that correct? MS NGONO That is not true. MR VISSER Well then would you please explain to us what that evidence of yours means? Did you receive an instruction not to visit him any longer in Roma after February 1988, or didn't you? MS NGONO In 1987, from 1987 up to 1988, there was this raid in Lesotho where the helicopters were always surveiling the place and then they told me not to visit them, but Mbulelo disappeared in September, I did not see him during that period. MR VISSER Now ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON I don't think that's what counsel asked you. You said in September he disappeared and reappeared in 1988 and you visited him regularly thereafter. Somewhere, we don't now when, in 1988 he said you should not visit them again because the situation was bad. You see, it's after the return from 1987, September, when he left, he came back, you saw him in February 1988 and you visited him and at some stage he told you: "Don't visit us any more, the situation is bad", that's where you are asked about. Just put that out of your mind. He says, in 1988 after February, when Mbulelo reappeared in Lesotho, you visited him again and there he told you that: "Do not come again, do not visit us", I don't know who is the us, "the situation is bad". Do you follow what I'm trying to explain to you? MS NGONO Yes, I understand that. The problem with Mr Visser is that I was no longer visiting him, but Mbulelo came to me in February after his reappearance. CHAIRPERSON No, he's got no problem, he's merely asking you questions. Don't take it that he's got a problem, we just want to clarify certain things which are not clear to him, so don't take it as a problem. You are under my protection. If he can come with something which is not right, I'll protect you and Mr Malindi too, he's there, so you've got double protection, so don't worry, just answer what he's asking you. Okay? MR VISSER Let's try again. Let me start off by saying, Ms Ngono, that I have an understanding that is difficult to remember what happened 13 years ago and I have sympathy with a person that tells me that he can't remember finer detail and dates etc., I am not criticising you, if there are things that you can't remember. Do you understand that? MS NGONO Yes. MR VISSER You see the problem which I have here, which I don't understand, is I have a document in front of me which is supposed to be a statement which you made, do you understand that? MR LAX Sorry, if you nod your head... MS NGONO Yes, I understand. MR VISSER And that document is in conflict in some respects with what you told us today, do you understand that? MS NGONO Yes, I understand that. MR VISSER What I'm trying to do is to give you an opportunity to explain what the true situation was, if you can remember. Do you understand that? MS NGONO Yes. MR VISSER Will you please tell us if there's something that I ask you which you can't remember? Will you do that? MS NGONO Yes. MR VISSER Fine. This request by Mbulelo that you must not visit them in Roma any longer, could he have given you that request before he left in September, 1987? I'll tell you why I ask you that, so that you understand, it's because if your answer to that is yes, then your paragraph 7 is also correct, then it's not wrong, that's why I'm asking you that question. MS NGONO No. MR VISSER So your no, does that mean it was not before September, but it was after he had left in September 1987 that he requested you not to visit them any longer? How certain are you - let me put it this way, I see that you're confused. How certain are you that the request was made to you in 1988 and not in 1987, not to visit them any longer in Roma? MS NGONO It is solely because I'm the one who was told. MR VISSER Is that the best answer you've got? Alright, let's go on. MR LAX Sorry, she hasn't really answered your question. MR VISSER I'm asking her whether that's the best answer she's got because I don't understand the answer. MR MALINDI Chairperson, the answer may not have been adequate, but the answer was: "Because it was said to me, that's why I remember it." I don't know if that was translated, I was listening to the Xhosa. MR LAX That's why I remember it wasn't translated, but anyway ... MR VISSER Perhaps we can just let the ritual of the bell tolling go past before we go on Chairperson. I don't know whether I didn't count all the tolls this time, but it went very quickly this morning, it seems. The question is this. I'm going to put it to you again. How certain are you that the request and you know which request I'm talking about, was made to you in 1988 and not in 1987? MS NGONO It is because before his disappearance in September, I used to see him frequently, there was no problem. MR VISSER Are you, as you are sitting here today, convinced that you saw Mbulelo Ngono in Lesotho, alive and well, in February 1988? Is that your evidence? MS NGONO Yes. MR VISSER He - was it at that time that he told you that he had a narrow escape? MS NGONO Yes, that was during that period. MR VISSER Do you know of an incident where he was involved at a road block in Lesotho where he was shot at, fired upon? MS NGONO I heard so. MR VISSER Do you think that's what he was referring to? MS NGONO No. MR VISSER Do you have any idea what he was referring to? MS NGONO No, I have no idea. MR VISSER But the fact is that things were in your words, or as it was translated, were tight in Lesotho for members of MK at the time, isn't that correct? MS NGONO Yes, I said so. MR VISSER Was that because the Lesotho police and the Lesotho Defence Force were weeding out the MK members in Lesotho? Were looking for them to export them - deport them? MS NGONO I do not think they were trying to deport them. MR VISSER Well, Ms Ngono, with great respect, you were friendly with members of MK such as Mpilo and your brother. Do you really want to tell us that you don't know that supporters or refugees, supporters of the ANC and refugees from South Africa were not deported from Lesotho after December 1986? Is that what you're telling us? MS NGONO I do not understand what you are saying. MR VISSER You don't know of members of MK that were deported from Lesotho in 1987 when you were there? MS NGONO Untrained members. MR VISSER Pardon? MS NGONO Untrained members. Perhaps that was referring to untrained members. MR VISSER Well, let's not confuse the issue. Do you know of any supporters of the ANC who were deported, and I'm not asking you whether you know the people, I want to know whether you know of the fact that ANC supporters were deported from Lesotho in 1987? Do you or don't you? MS NGONO I never heard such. MR VISSER Never heard about it? Okay, never heard about it. Do you know that the Lesotho police arrested ANC supporters in Lesotho? MS NGONO Yes, I know that. MR VISSER And what did they then do with them? MS NGONO What I know of the people that I saw being arrested, they were later released. MR VISSER And there was a military government in Lesotho in 1987, I was just wondering whether I was correct with my dates, but it is confirmed, it was 86, 87 until the end of 1988 thereabouts. I think it's a fair question. There was a military government in Lesotho in 1987, isn't that correct? Do you know that? MS NGONO I know nothing about those governments. MR VISSER Alright. In fairness to you, can I ask you this, it seems as if you weren't terribly interested in the politics of the time, would that be correct? MS NGONO That is correct. MR VISSER Alright. Fine, then I won't ask you any further questions about that. You see the only reason why things had become, I think your translation was tight, or as the Chairman said bad for MK members in Lesotho, I'm putting it to you, was because the military government in Lesotho was well-disposed to the then South African Government and they worked together to try to locate and arrest MK members and that's why things were tight for them, or bad for them, do you agree with that? MS NGONO I agree with you. MR VISSER From your own knowledge how many times was Mbulelo arrested by any police force? MS NGONO I heard for the first time that he was arrested in March. MR VISSER You hadn't heard of him being arrested in the Transkei for example? MS NGONO I did not hear because Mbulelo would not tell me that he was arrested, but he would tell me that he escaped from something, but he would not explain or give me the details. MR VISSER Alright. Do you know on how many occasions Mbulelo escaped from something, as you put it? MS NGONO When I arrived in January, he told me that he was about to die, I must study and then he disappeared in September and when he came back he told me that since he did not die at that time, he will never die again, because he had this narrow escape. MR VISSER But he didn't tell you what the narrow escape was? MS NGONO No, because he was very secretive and he was loyal to his organisation. MR VISSER And you didn't ask him? MS NGONO No, because he would not trust me even though I am his sister. He would not tell me the ...(indistinct) about the organisation. MR VISSER Where exactly did you see Mbulelo in 1988, where was it that you saw him? MS NGONO He came to me at school MR VISSER Where was this school, in Maseru or where? MS NGONO In Masithe? MR VISSER How far is that from Maseru, is it some distance away or is it close to Maseru? MS NGONO It is some distance away, on the way to Mafikeng. MR VISSER So you say you go to the offices of the United Nations, I take it that's in Maseru? MS NGONO Yes. MR VISSER And you asked them to assist you to look for Mbulelo? MS NGONO Yes. MR VISSER Did you know what Mbulelo's MK name was? MS NGONO Yes, I knew. MR VISSER Well will you tell us what it was? MS NGONO Msizwa and K K . MR VISSER Msizwa and K K. When did you go to the United Nations Offices? MS NGONO In March but I cannot remember the date. MR VISSER Now I'm going to ask you this. Why did you go to them in March 1988? What made you go to them in March 1988? MS NGONO It is because I knew by then that he was arrested. MR VISSER Who told you that? I'm sorry, is that because the sister told you that he was arrested, is that the reason? The sister of Mbece told you that he was arrested. MS NGONO Yes, she told me that he was arrested. MR VISSER And that's why you went to the United Nations offices, am I understanding your evidence correctly? MS NGONO Yes. MR VISSER Why didn't you go to the police? MS NGONO It is because Lindelwa went to the police and she asked for a record of the people that were arrested on that date and Mbulelo's name was not on that record. MR VISSER Now did Lindelwa tell you that? How do you know that? MS NGONO There were other cadres that were around in Lesotho and they would tell me. MR VISSER So you can't remember who told you that, is that what you're saying? MS NGONO His name was Mamawa then, but I do not know his real name. MR VISSER On the strength of what he told you, you decided not to go to the police, the Lesotho police, but to the United Nations, is that what your evidence is? MS NGONO They said that they would send Lindelwa to go and look for him at a police station in Lesotho and I must go to the United Nations Offices. MR VISSER So was it then because of that agreement that you went to the United Nations offices, is that the reason why you went there? MS NGONO They said it would only be a mother that was able to go to the police and look for her child, so I must not go there because the police were cruel, they were able to kill the members of the family, so they did not want me to go to the police. MR VISSER Do you know a person by the name of Buthelezi? Well, if I ask you that of course you're going to say yes, because there are plenty of Buthelezis. I don't know his name, but his initials are B B Buthelezi and there's a document of confidential comments which he made which is at page 53. Do you know who that person is? MS NGONO I do not know that person. MR VISSER Oh, I see. ...(indistinct) I see on the last page, I missed that, my client has just pointed it out. Busisiwe Benedikatha Buthelezi, do you know him, Major? MS NGONO No, I do not know that person. MR MAPOMA Chairperson, if I may just correct? This Busisiwe name, is a female name, it's a Xhosa feminine gender name, this must be a female, this Major, just for the record. MR VISSER Well, Chairperson, now we know that as well. Do you know such a lady person with that name? MS NGONO No, I do not know her. MR VISSER I'm indebted to my Learned Friend, Mr Mapoma. Now I want to proceed to page 37 and paragraph 13. Where were you in 1990? MS NGONO I was at home. MR VISSER Will you tell us where that is? MS NGONO Port Elizabeth. MR VISSER Where is the Louis le Grange police station? In which town is that situated? MS NGONO In Port Elizabeth. MR VISSER Now you didn't give any evidence about that, but it's in this document which professes to be your statement, that a certain Bulelo visited you at home and he told you something, now is that correct or not that such a person visited you in 1990? MS NGONO Yes, that is correct. That person came to see my mother. MR VISSER Alright. Were you there? MS NGONO Yes. MR VISSER Did you hear what was said by Bulelo to your mother? MS NGONO This person did not want us to hear what they were talking about with my mother, but when this person left, my mother told us that this person had Mbulelo's photo and this photo was shown to my mother and he did not want us to see this photo, he said that Mbulelo was arrested and he was in the Transkei. MR VISSER In 1990? MS NGONO Yes, it was in 1990. MR VISSER Mbulelo was in the Transkei in 1990, is that your impression of...? MS NGONO In the Transvaal. MR VISSER Oh. As far as you are concerned therefore, can we accept that as far as your information that you got from your mother is concerned, Mbulelo Ngono was in the Transvaal in 1990, is that what you're telling us? MS NGONO According to what that person said. MR VISSER And there was a photo of him that your mother told you about that was shown to her? MS NGONO Yes. MR VISSER And did he also tell your mother that there was a file of Mbulelo at the Louis le Grange police station? MS NGONO Yes, he said so. MR VISSER So if you were to be asked what the purpose of the visit of Mr Bobelo to your mother was, would you say that the purpose was to come and tell her that Mbulelo Ngono is alive and well and he's in the Transvaal? MS NGONO Yes. MR VISSER Can I ask you this, Ms Ngono, are you opposed to amnesty being granted to the applicants in this case, in terms of the Act? MS NGONO Yes, I'm opposed to the application. MR VISSER Why? MS NGONO It is because they did not tell us the truth. These are our people, we are looking for them, we want them. If they are killed we want them, we want to know what happened to them. At home we are left alone and there are three of us, we want our people. MR VISSER Why do you say are they not telling the truth? MS NGONO It is because ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON Ms Ngono please, just hold it for a second. I say I'm now becoming cross about these cell phones. Those who are interested to be in this hearing, must please ensure that it never triggers off and if people feel that they've got to receive some messages whilst here, they should do so outside, wait outside until they get such messages. It's very distracting because we are listening to very sensitive evidence here. MR VISSER From my side, Chairperson, your comments are highly appreciated. I understand your anxiety and I understand the depth of your feelings about your loved ones, I'm not asking you about that. I would like to know why you think that these people have lied to this Committee. They say they took those people, including Mbulelo, from Lesotho. Those people became informers, they're not even sure whether Mbulelo did become an informer, they took them back to Lesotho and they would have heard from them again. You say they're lying. Your evidence is that you saw him in February and you never heard from him again. Nobody is saying you're lying. Why do you say they are lying? That's what I want to know from you. MS NGONO The reason why I'm saying that they are lying is because these dates that they mentioned, Mbulelo was not in Lesotho at that time. They say that they took him in December and Mbulelo was not in Lesotho in December, Mbulelo came back to Lesotho in February and the Mafikeng incident happened and I heard that he was arrested in March and I never saw him again, that is why I'm saying that they are lying. MR VISSER How do you know that he wasn't in Lesotho in December? MS NGONO I used to visit where he was staying, even when he was not there, I would go there and visit Mpilo. MR VISSER You see nobody has ever suggested, on the part of the applicants, that Mbulelo was not arrested in February or March 1988, they never said so, in fact they conceded that its possible, so we're not arguing about that, we're not saying that you're wrong that he was arrested in February or March. What they are saying is that they took him, they abducted him in December. You say he wasn't there in December. I ask you why you say so, you say because you regularly visited and he wasn't there, you didn't find him, is that the picture? MS NGONO Yes, I know the last time I saw him was in September and even when he was not there, I would visit that place where he was staying and I would find Mpilo and Mpilo would have told me if anything happened to Mbulelo. MR VISSER You see that's why I asked you this question before. Would you be told if Mr Mbulelo had been arrested by any police force and you said he was very secretive, he wouldn't tell you, remember that? MR LAX The question was, would Mbulelo have told you, not would Mpilo have told you. MR VISSER I know that, I know that Chairperson, with respect, I'm not being unfair to this witness. you remember that I asked you before whether Mbulelo would have told you if he'd been arrested by any police force, do you remember that I asked you that? MS NGONO Yes, I remember. MR VISSER Do you remember that you said that he wouldn't have told you because he was very secretive. MR MALINDI Chairperson, that is not how I remember the evidence. The answer was: "He never told me he was ever arrested", except this incident that she testified about. The secretiveness of Mbulelo comes to his other activities as a member of MK. MR VISSER I'm not going to argue about that Chairperson. I believe that I'm correct, but I'm going to let it ride. The point is you now say that if something had happened to him, Mpilo would have told you, is that what you're saying now? MS NGONO Yes, that is what I'm saying. MR VISSER Well, alright. What did he tell you where was Mbulelo in September 1987? MS NGONO Mpilo would not tell me about their operation, but he would tell me only if Mbulelo was taken by the police. MR VISSER Well you know, with all due respect to you, why wouldn't he tell you that your brother Mbulelo is not in Lesotho, he's in the Transkei or wherever, why wouldn't he tell you that? MS NGONO Because I was not a member of the MK. MR VISSER No, that's not good enough, with respect. why would he tell you that he was arrested, but tell you nothing else about your brother? MS NGONO Because if he was arrested, that would mean that the family would be involved. CHAIRPERSON Mr Visser, I don't know where this is going to. If we have to accept that the police operated on a need to know basis and we would question a witness and say a witness was not a member of any organisation, they would tell about what happens to them, what they do on a daily basis, then I'm going to find it difficult even to believe the applications that some of the things they did, they wouldn't know. I would find it very difficult. MR VISSER Point taken, Chairperson. I will leave that. Point taken. Were you ever told by anyone of other times when Mbulelo was arrested by any police force anywhere, apart from the time that Lindelwa's sister told you of his arrest while he was with Lindelwa? Were you ever told of any other arrest? MR LAX Sorry, the name is Lindelwa. MS NGONO Can you please repeat your question? MR VISSER How many times were you told of arrests of Mbulelo? MS NGONO In March? MR VISSER Any time, your whole life, how many times was he arrested that you know of? MS NGONO I do not know how many times Mbulelo was arrested. What I know, he just told me that there was this narrow escape, but I don't know when he was arrested. MR VISSER After he left in 1980, can you tell us how many times you know of that he was arrested? MS NGONO I do not know. MR VISSER Alright. You see, you say in paragraph 8 of your statement at page 36 that the Ngono family is strongly opposed to the granting of amnesty to the applicants because "We understand that they are lying." Do you read it there? MS NGONO Yes. MR VISSER What do you mean by that? MR MALINDI Chairperson, the applicants are applying in terms of the criteria laid out in an Act and it is our responsibility as legal representatives to argue whether full disclosure has been made in terms of the requirements of the Act. I don't know how this witness is going to be able to answer questions as to whether the requirements of the Act have been satisfied. I think basically that is what lay persons state that they want the truth and if their loved ones are unaccounted for, then there isn't full disclosure. Maybe Mr Visser should leave that to argument. MR VISSER May I respond to that Chairperson? CHAIRPERSON Ja, certainly. MR VISSER I'm not asking her for a legal recital of - I'm asking her on what factual basis she is saying that. How does she understand that. There's nothing wrong with that question and frankly, I don't believe that my Learned Friend should interfere with it. CHAIRPERSON I'll allow the question Mr Visser. MR VISSER What do you mean when you say "We understand that they are lying"? Do you have an answer to that? MS NGONO Yes, I do have an answer. MR VISSER Alright, will you give it to us please? MS NGONO As I was listening to them giving evidence, they did not tell the truth and things that they said, they do not correspond. MR VISSER You see this statement was taken on the 8th of March 2000, when you hadn't heard them speaking, or giving evidence, so that can't be the answer. Let me ask you this, how or from whom did you understand that the applicants are lying? Who told you so, if any one? MS NGONO Nobody told me that. CHAIRPERSON What led you to make such a statement? On what facts would that have been? MS NGONO Mr Visser ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON No address me first, my question first, it takes precedence over Mr Visser's question. My question is, when you made this statement in paragraph 8 on page 36, under what circumstances and what facts did you have to make that statement? MS NGONO The TRC investigator, when he came to us and told us about this case and about the investigations and he explained to us that these people told him that they arrested Mbulelo and they took him back to Lesotho, so they don't know what happened, that is why I wrote this statement like this. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. You may proceed Mr Visser. MR VISSER Thank you Chairperson. The last issue I want to raise with you is this, you told this Committee about a photograph that was brought by Mr Bobelo and shown to your mother, that's what you said today, isn't that correct? MS NGONO Yes, that is correct. MR VISSER Did you see the photograph? MS NGONO I've already said that he showed my mother this photo. MR VISSER So what you say in paragraph 14, this is your statement, is wrong, where it says "Mr Bobelo even showed us a photo of Mbulelo", that would be wrong? You'll have to say something. Either yes, or no, or I don't know, or whatever. CHAIRPERSON If you look at the tenor of that evidence and the us, which is used about twice, in reading it, it means you were present as well and you have just told us that it was shown to your mother, but if you read the us, it tells that, if I say for instance, I listened to you, we listened to you, I'm including my two Panel members if I say we, rather than if I say I listened to you. It makes a hell of a difference and that's what you are asked upon, that the us there has the connotation that you were present when the photograph was shown. MS NGONO We were there at home, but he spoke to my mother. CHAIRPERSON And you did not see the photograph? MS NGONO No, I did not. MR VISSER Thank you Chairperson. Did your mother tell you about the photograph? MS NGONO Yes. MR VISSER Did she say anything about that photograph to you, apart from the fact that she was shown a photograph? MS NGONO She told me that Mbulelo had a scar on his face and the last time I saw him, he did not have a scar. MR VISSER I see. Now that's what I want to ask you about because if I'm correct, and I stand to be corrected, but I recall that Ms Mbece, or someone, I'm sure it was Ms Mbece, also referred to the scar, may I just check this Chairperson? Yes, at page 50, she says ... MR MAPOMA Sorry can I just correct? It's not Ms Mbete, it's the girlfriend to Bulelo. Ms Mabece, Mr Mbete is the investigator for the TRC, it's Lindelwa Mabece. MR VISSER I'm referring to a person with the name of Lindelwa Mabece. MR LAX Yes, you said Mbete. Ja. MR VISSER That's part of my strategy, not to listen to myself, because I can't stand my own voice. So I do say some things that I think I say something else. I do apologise Chairperson for being at cross-purposes on such a silly issue. Mabece. She says at page 50, the second line "The abduction was not enough. They went to the family in Port Elizabeth, brought his photo" Then she says this: "I was shown this photo when I visited them on their request" What do you say about that? Did that happen? MS NGONO Lindelwa visited us at home. MR VISSER No, that's not the question, did you show her the photograph? MS NGONO No. MR VISSER So she's lying when she says that? MS NGONO It is my mother who was shown this photo, maybe this happened. CHAIRPERSON No, no, the import of what has been read to you, it would appear the photo was left behind, hence Lindelwa says she saw the photo, do you get the drift? What you are asked about is that in this statement Lindelwa says she came to your home, she was shown this photo with Mbulelo having a scar on his face. MS NGONO I am sure this is a mistake. Maybe she was told about this photo. CHAIRPERSON No, what is here, it's unlike your statement, this is hand-written. Yours has been written by longhand and thereafter typed, but this one, unless Mr Mapoma tells me otherwise, it would appear it's the same person who wrote it. MR MAPOMA Yes, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Mr Mapoma has confirmed that this is the handwriting of Lindelwa Mabece. MS NGONO Maybe it's Lindelwa who can be able to answer to that. CHAIRPERSON Was the photograph left at home by Bobelo? MS NGONO I did not see it. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. You may proceed, Mr Visser. MR VISSER Thank you Chairperson. But as far as you're concerned, she's clearly wrong when she says that? As far as your knowledge goes, because you don't know anything about this photograph except that it was shown to your mother. MS NGONO Yes, it was shown to my mother. MR VISSER And it would be strange if the photograph was left there, that your mother didn't show you the photograph of your brother, wouldn't it be strange? MS NGONO Yes, that would be strange. MR VISSER Thank you. Now I'll tell you what is even stranger. She goes on to say "I pointed out to the family that he had no scar on his forehead when I last saw him." Now as far as we know, the last time she saw him, according to this statement, was on the day that the Lesotho police took him away when there were four people present and she never saw him again after that, whenever that was. MR LAX Sorry, what's strange about that? MR VISSER I'm coming to the strange part. I'm just putting it to you that she says that when she saw him the last time, was when he was taken away by the Lesotho police. MS NGONO Yes. MR VISSER You see, the strange thing is this, if the applicants are lying, one would have the situation that on the alternative, if Mbulelo is taken away and given to these applicants by the Lesotho police, they inflicted an injury on Mbulelo's forehead and they took a photograph of it and they circulated it to another police station. now I know this is very technical and it's really argument, but I'm putting it to you that if there was a photograph of Mr Mbulelo Ngono with a scar on his face which he sustained while in custody of the police, it refers to a different arrest than to the one to which these applicants are testifying. CHAIRPERSON Have you heard what was put to you? MR VISSER It might be unfair to expect this witness, Chairperson, it was really just a point made more for the sake of argument than anything else, I wouldn't expect her to make any comment about this, unless she wishes to. CHAIRPERSON I think I must still give her the opportunity to respond if she has any. Do you have any response to what was put to you? MS NGONO I am not interested in all of this, but what I'm saying is that after Mbulelo was arrested in March, we never saw him again and he was taken by the police. We never saw him again. The fact that he had scars on his face or anything else, we only want to know what happened to him after he was taken by the police. MR VISSER And we've got no argument at all with you about any of that. Now when you talk about a scar, would that refer to an old wound, or what do you mean when you refer to a scar? MS NGONO I have already said that I did not see the photograph. MR VISSER That may be so, but you referred to a scar. Now how did you understand, what did you understand that to be? Was it a mark of an old wound, or what did you understand that to mean? MS NGONO The last time I saw him, he did not have a wound or a scar. MR VISSER Page 37, lastly, Chairperson, of the bundle, I want to put to you the last portion of this statement seems to suggest that a written statement was taken from you and that what we have before us here, is a typewritten record or copy of that hand-written statement and that it was signed by you on the date specified here, what do you say to that? You referred to notes which he was taking, I'm suggesting to you that he took a written statement from you, Mr Mbete. MS NGONO Yes. MR VISSER So I'm asking you again, did you sign that written statement, sign it? MS NGONO Yes. MR VISSER I heard you earlier to say that you didn't sign it, but alright, you signed it. And that statement will be in the possession of the TRC, wouldn't it? MS NGONO Yes. MR VISSER As far as you're concerned. Thank you Chairperson, no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VISSER CHAIRPERSON Thank you Mr Visser. Mr Mapoma, any questions? MR MAPOMA I have no questions, Chairperson, thank you. NO QUESTIONS BY MR MAPOMA CHAIRPERSON Mr Malindi, any re-examination? MR MALINDI As the Committee pleases. RE-EXAMINATION BY MR MALINDI Ms Ngono, if Bulelo had been arrested in December 1987 and was returned to Lesotho, where would he have stayed? MS NGONO I think that if he had collaborated with them, maybe he was not going to go back to the ANC, but I'm sure he would have come to me. MR MALINDI Where did you know him to stay during the time that you used to see him? MS NGONO In Roma. MR MALINDI Is that the place that you used to visit frequently to see him and his other comrades? MS NGONO Yes. MR MALINDI If after December 1987, he had gone back to that place, would you have seen him? MS NGONO Yes, I would have seen him because I used to go there. I used to go to Roma. MR MALINDI And is it your evidence that if he was in Lesotho or around Roma in December 1987, you would have seen him or his comrades would have told you? MS NGONO His comrades would have told me because they came to me as they used to guide me on what to do, so they came to me and said that: "Thobeka, if Bulelo would have collaborated with them, the police would have raided our houses, so it's either they have killed him there and then." CHAIRPERSON What period are you talking about, if he had collaborated, is this after receiving, or is this after you were visited by the TRC investigator, or was this whilst you were in Lesotho, what the comrades were saying about this collaboration with the police? MS NGONO It was when I was in Lesotho. They came to me and said that there were no raids in their houses, which means that Bulelo did not co-operate with them. If he did, the police would have raided their houses. CHAIRPERSON No, I don't follow, because the only time we know about Bulelo collaborating with the police is when these applicants made an application for amnesty. How did you come about collaboration there? I want just to follow that. MR MALINDI I heard this in Xhosa, it means more co-operation than collaboration. Perhaps the interpret can assist, because the way she puts it in Xhosa, is that if Bulelo had co-operated with them at the time they arrested him, then they would have been raided, whatever. Perhaps the witness can once again explain it. That was how I understood it. CHAIRPERSON No at some stage I was listening to Xhosa and it was not talk of assistance to the other, rather say to my Panel, and then I had to switch over to English so that if there is not something proper I should hear it English, so I missed out altogether on what was said in Xhosa, but could she repeat herself? Because what I - whilst repeating yourself, I say what I do not understand is this, if there was co-operation or collaboration with the applicants, the police, that could have only been known after they had made their applications. This is my understanding, don't say I'm putting it to you, but I just want to understand you properly. And if you speak of co-operation with police whilst you were at Lesotho, I want to know the circumstances that gave rise to a discussion of that nature. Do you follow me? MS NGONO Yes. I'm talking about the cadres. They said to me that if it happened that Bulelo was arrested and he co-operated with the police, their houses would have been raided, so because that did not happen, it means that if we did not find Bulelo, he was killed. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. I just wanted that clarification. I'm sorry Mr Malindi. MR LAX Sorry, can I just clarify one thing, because I'm a bit puzzled. This conversation with the cadres, when did that happen? This conversation you're talking about? MS NGONO After he was arrested in March, after Bulelo was arrested in March. MR LAX Sorry, Mr Malindi. Please continue. MR MALINDI Thank you Chairperson. Mr Ngono, after Bulelo was arrested in March 1988, there obviously was concern about his whereabouts. MS NGONO Yes. MR MALINDI One of the concerns may have been that he was killed. MS NGONO We did not think that. MR MALINDI One of the concerns may have been that if he is arrested, the police will squeeze information out of him and they may come back to Lesotho to arrest some of his comrades. MS NGONO Yes, what we thought was that if they wanted information or if they got information from him, they would go back to Lesotho and arrest others. MR MALINDI After some time had passed and there were no raids, was there relief amongst yourself and other comrades that it means he has not collaborated with the police? MS NGONO Yes. MR MALINDI Was it in that context that the question of possibly collaborating or non-collaborating arose in Lesotho? MS NGONO Yes, it was in that context, because they counted the time since he was arrested and there were no raids, so they concluded that he did not co-operate with the police and they would not just keep him, perhaps they have killed him. MR MALINDI Thank you Chairperson, no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MALINDI CHAIRPERSON Thank you Mr Malindi. Any questions from the Panel? MR LAX Just one from me, Chairperson. After September and before February, you said that you would visit the house where he had lived from time to time. What was the purpose of those visits? MS NGONO Sometimes I would help them out and do their washing. MR LAX So you didn't go there specifically to ask where your brother was, or if they knew anything about your brother? MS NGONO I saw that he was not there because I visited there several times and I did not ask them where my brother was, I did not ask the cadres. MR LAX Now if he had returned in the late part of December, or January, up until the time that you did actually see him, where do you think he would have gone? MS NGONO He would have gone to Roma. MR LAX ; Do you think he would have visited Lindelwa? MS NGONO Yes. MR LAX Did you ever ask her whether she had seen him during that time? MS NGONO Yes, and she told me that she does not see him, she doesn't even know where he is. MR LAX ; Now when did you return to South Africa? MS NGONO December 1988. MR LAX And you returned to Port Elizabeth? MS NGONO Yes. MR LAX And in that time you've only had this one visit that you know of of this person who works at Louis le Grange, or some other policeman who might have visited there with any information regarding your brother? MS NGONO Yes, my mother was also in detention at that time, so when my mother was in detention, she said that they asked her whether to bring Bulelo so that he can be a State witness in their case. MR LAX When was your mother detained? MS NGONO March. MR LAX Which year? MS NGONO 1988. MR LAX And do you know why she was detained? MS NGONO She was working with the cadres. MR LAX And in March 1988, your mother was told by a certain policeman that they were going to bring Bulelo to be a State witness against her? MS NGONO They said in this case, in this particular case - they said that they can bring Bulelo to be a State witness in that case, in my mother's case and then my mother said that that depended on him. MR LAX Did your mother ever have a case? MS NGONO Yes, the one she was detained for, for co-operating or working together with the cadres. CHAIRPERSON Was she prosecuted when she was detained for working with the cadres, in other words, appeared in court, charges put to her, that kind of thing? MS NGONO Yes, she appeared in court. MR LAX ; Did the case proceed against her so that witnesses were called and so on? MS NGONO There were no witnesses because all of them were arrested with the cadres that she was working with. MR LAX And Bulelo never testified in that case? MS NGONO No. CHAIRPERSON Finish off the sentence. No, they did not bring him. MR LAX Thanks Chairperson, I have no further questions. MR SIBANYONI Thank you Mr Chairperson, just one question. Were you told why you were excluded from the discussions when Mr Bulelo visited your mother? MS NGONO No, he did not tell us. MR SIBANYONI Also do you know why the photo was not shown to you in person? MS NGONO I do not know. MR SIBANYONI Thank you. No further questions, Mr Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Mr Lax, you said you had something else. MR LAX Thanks Chair, sorry I just forgot the one aspect and that was, this Mr Bulelo, is he still around? MS NGONO Yes, he is still around, he's still alive. MR LAX And is he still a policeman, or does he still work there? I don't know if he's a policeman or not, but does he still work at Louis le Grange police station? is he a policeman? Let me ask you that question. MS NGONO He is on retirement. MR LAX Thank you. But you know where to find him if you have to? MS NGONO Yes, I know. MR LAX Thank you. CHAIRPERSON Just lastly. When did your mother die? MS NGONO January 2000. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Anything that arises from the questions from the bench, Mr Malindi? MR MALINDI Just two, Chairperson. FURTHER RE-EXAMINATION BY MR MALINDI Ms Ngono, while you were at school in Lesotho, did you develop friendships with other cadres who were known to your brother? MS NGONO Yes. MR MALINDI Is that part of the reason why you visited frequently to where they stayed? MS NGONO Yes. MR MALINDI In 1990 when Mr Bulelo came to your house and spoke to your mother, how old were you? MS NGONO I cannot remember, maybe I was 27 years old. MR MALINDI May your age have been a reason why Mr Bulelo only wanted to speak to your mother? MR VISSER Chairperson really, that's ... to put to a witness. CHAIRPERSON Rephrase your question. MR MALINDI Chairperson I'll leave it at that, nothing will really turn on it at the end of the day. Thank you Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON ...(indistinct) MR MALINDI I say Chairperson, nothing much will turn on it at the end of the day, I'm prepared to drop it, thank you. MR LAX This statement says that you're 34 years old, is that correct? MS NGONO Yes. MR LAX So obviously in 1990, you would have been 24 years old. CHAIRPERSON He is good in Arithmetic, he revised it last night. MS NGONO You remember he went terribly wrong yesterday. He said in a week, ...(indistinct) out of five days, I said: "Oh, how many days does a week have?" You may proceed, or are you finished, Mr Malindi? MR MALINDI No further questions Chairperson. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MALINDI CHAIRPERSON Mr Visser anything arising? MR VISSER Yes, Chairperson, there are a few issues that now arise, with your permission. FURTHER CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR VISSER Let me perhaps start this way, you say that you made friends with cadres who were friends of your brother, Bulelo, while you were in Lesotho in 1987, that is correct, isn't it? MS NGONO That is correct. MR VISSER Did you have a relationship with any of them that was more than just a friendship? And I want to tell you that I'm not prying into your private affairs, what I want to know is whether you sometimes went to the houses where your brother lived, not to visit him, but to visit someone else, did that happen? MS NGONO No, it was not beyond friendship. MR VISSER But did you sometimes go and visit the cadres without specifically intending to go and visit your brother? MS NGONO The reason why I went there was because of my brother. MR VISSER Well you see, you also told us that you went there to go and help them out, to do their washing, isn't that so? MS NGONO Yes, that is so. MR VISSER So that's a reason why you went there, which wasn't specifically to visit your brother, isn't that correct? MS NGONO Even when I did not have money, I would go there. MR VISSER Well alright, whatever that means. But is it true that you told this Committee earlier today that your brother stayed in many places when he was in Lesotho? MS NGONO Yes. MR VISSER Does that not mean that he didn't have a fixed home where he stayed most of the time, he was moving around? MS NGONO He did not have a fixed place. MR VISSER Was he moving around a lot? MS NGONO Yes, he would go to the university and he'd move around. MR VISSER And would it be fair to say when you went to visit him you never knew whether you would find him where you went, or whether you wouldn't find him there? MS NGONO Yes, but I knew that I would see him because he would visit Lindelwa. MR VISSER So did you always go to Lindelwa? MS NGONO Yes, I would go to Lindelwa. MR VISSER Was that the only place where you visited your brother? MS NGONO Even the place that he was staying, I would visit there. MR VISSER So you went to visit your brother at two places, is that your evidence, in Lesotho? MS NGONO Yes. MR VISSER How did the whole issue of either collaboration or working with the police, come to be discussed with you by the cadres in Lesotho in 1988? How did it come about? MS NGONO It was when we were looking for him, when he was arrested. MR VISSER Did somebody then say: "Perhaps he's turned, perhaps he's become an informer of the South African police"? Is that what happened? MS NGONO They knew that people were tortured and when you were being tortured you divulged certain information. MR VISSER I see. Alright. Now you see you said when Commissioner Lax asked you questions, I made a note of one of your answers and that is the reason why I'm asking you all these questions. You said between September and February, when you say your brother wasn't there, when you visited the house where he lived, you were asked what was the purpose of those visits, do you remember that? Do you remember you were asked that? MS NGONO I said that sometimes when I did not have money I would go there, even when Bulelo was not there, they would give me some money and they would visit me even when Bulelo was not there. MR VISSER Ms Ngono, please listen to my question. Do you remember that Mr Lax asked you, between September and February when you visited the house where he lived, your brother lived, what the purpose was of those visits, do you remember that? MS NGONO Mpilo was there in that house, so I would go and visit him. MS NGONO You would go and visit him, not your brother? You weren't looking for your brother, you went to look for Mpilo, is that what you're saying? The purpose was to go and visit Mpilo, is that what you're saying? MS NGONO Yes. MR VISSER And you also said that you did not ask the cadres where your brother was. MS NGONO I did not ask them. MR VISSER Lastly, we never heard before about this piece of evidence that Bulelo was going to be used against your mother as a State witness. Is that something you told your legal representatives about? MS NGONO This came up because there are a lot of questions now that I've been asked. I don't remember telling my legal representative. MR VISSER What was - did you hear about this threat to use Bulelo against your mother, at the time? Did you know about that at the time, when this threat was issued to your mother, when your mother was in detention, or was it something that you heard about later? I just want to know when you heard about it. MS NGONO When we went to visit my mother, she told me about this. MR VISSER You see that's the thing, when did you go to visit your mother? MS NGONO I went home in December and I visited her in December 88, but that was said to her before. MR VISSER Did you go home for the school holidays? MS NGONO Yes. MR VISSER And did you also go home for the school holidays in 1987 in December? MS NGONO Yes. MR VISSER Well, Ms Ngono, with great respect to you then, I don't understand your evidence at all. I have no further questions. CHAIRPERSON It would be fair, Mr Visser, to say what you don't understand. Probably it could be cleared up. You cannot just say: "I don't understand" and stop there, it wouldn't be fair to the witness. MR VISSER Perhaps I should be fair to her then. If you had gone home in December 1987, which you just said you did, home means to Port Elizabeth, is that correct? MS NGONO Yes. MR VISSER What does your evidence mean about you going to the places where your brother lived in Lesotho and visiting Mpilo and helping with the washing and all that evidence that you gave, while all the time you're sitting in Port Elizabeth? CHAIRPERSON Well I suppose first thing we should establish when the holidays were. It wouldn't be fair, again. MR VISSER Thank you Chairperson. When did the school holidays in Lesotho commence, the December holidays, when did they start? MS NGONO I went home in December and I went back to Lesotho in December. MR VISSER When did the school holidays commence in Lesotho? MS NGONO I cannot remember the date. MR VISSER Was it from the beginning of December that the schools closed? MS NGONO No, it was not the beginning of December. MR VISSER Well from when in December? The middle of December, when? MS NGONO I cannot remember. MR VISSER Why not? You were at school there. Were you attending school over Christmas, for example? MS NGONO You said that if I do not remember something, I should say so. MR VISSER Fair enough, I stand corrected. Well, can we assume that the schools would have closed before Christmas? MS NGONO Yes, they were closed before Christmas. MR VISSER And you then went home? MS NGONO Yes. MR VISSER To Port Elizabeth? MS NGONO Yes. MR VISSER And the school started when in the new year, somewhere in January? MS NGONO Yes. MR VISSER Is that when you came back, went back to Lesotho in 1988? MS NGONO Yes. MR VISSER So at least from before Christmas until January, you are not able to tell us whether Bulelo was in Lesotho, or whether he wasn't there, isn't that correct, not from your own knowledge? MS NGONO I can tell you because I went back to Lesotho in December, I was sent to go to Lesotho and Bulelo was not there. MR VISSER Who sent you? MS NGONO My mother. MR VISSER To do what? MS NGONO My mother was working with the cadres that were in Lesotho. MR VISSER To do what? Why did your mother send you to Lesotho? MS NGONO She gave me a letter, but I don't know what was written in that letter. Maybe she was asking for money. MR VISSER A letter addressed to whom? MS NGONO I have it to two girls that were in Roma. MR VISSER And that's why your mother sent you to ... MS NGONO So I spent December holidays in Lesotho, Christmas day I was there in Lesotho. MR VISSER So actually it wasn't correct to say that you spent the Christmas, or your spent - you were in Port Elizabeth in December, you were actually in Lesotho in December. CHAIRPERSON She said she came home in December and went back to Lesotho again in December, that's what she said. Now it is now quite clear when she went back. MR VISSER So you were there at Christmas, on Christmas day you were in Lesotho? MS NGONO Yes, I was in Lesotho on Christmas day and to follow up from what the Chairperson just stated, you can't tell us when you left Lesotho to go to Port Elizabeth, that date you can't remember, is that what you're saying? MS NGONO Yes, I cannot remember. MR VISSER it could have been a week, it could have been two weeks, you don't remember? MS NGONO Perhaps it's three weeks, but I cannot remember when the school holidays started. MR VISSER Would you bear with me a short moment Chairperson? I know it's gone way past one o'clock already. I have no further questions, thank you. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VISSER CHAIRPERSON Thank you Mr Visser. Mr Mapoma. MR MAPOMA Nothing Chairperson, thank you. NO QUESTIONS BY MR MAPOMA CHAIRPERSON Thank you Ms Ngono, that concludes your evidence. You are excused. WITNESS EXCUSED CHAIRPERSON We will adjourn. We'll take three-quarters of an hour for lunch, back at a quarter-past two. COMMITTEE ADJOURNS ON RESUMPTION CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Mr Malindi, you were still playing the back-hand. MR MALINDI ; Thank you Chairperson. Chairperson, I beg leave to call Phyllis Seyoe. CHAIRPERSON I did not have my ear phones. MR MALINDI I beg to call the next witness, Phyllis Seyoe. PHYLLIS DIPHUMOCOE SEYOE (sworn states) CHAIRPERSON Mr Malindi. MR MALINDI Thank you Chairperson. EXAMINATION BY MR MALINDI Mrs Seyoe are you related in any way to Betty Boom? MS SEYOE That is correct, that's my sister. MR MALINDI And you are familiar with these hearings. Could you please tell the Committee when she left for exile? MS SEYOE In 1979. MR MALINDI From 1979 when she left, was the family able to keep contact with her or not? MS SEYOE No, Chairperson, we were not able to be in contact with her. We were supposed to meet in 1986 in December. MR MALINDI Could you please repeat your answer, I couldn't get it. MS SEYOE We contacted her for the first time in 1986, since she left in 1979 in December. MR MALINDI How did you contact her in December in 1986? MS SEYOE We contacted her telephonically. MR MALINDI ; Who spoke to her on the phone? MS SEYOE I contacted her myself. MR MALINDI Did you phone her yourself, or what was the position? MS SEYOE She's the one who used to contact us through telephone. MR MALINDI And did you know where she was contacting you from when she phoned? MS SEYOE She told me that she's around Free State, but she did not mention a particular place. MR MALINDI Besides this telephonic contact that you had in December 1986, was there any other form of contact within the family and Betty Boom? MS SEYOE Yes, she used to contact me then she would tell me a place where we'd meet and then I will go there and meet her and have a discussion. MR MALINDI ; Can you give the Committee the period during which you had these subsequent meetings with her? MS SEYOE We met on ten occasions where we met, or she would contact me through the phone. MR MALINDI Which year was this? MS SEYOE Up to 1987. MR MALINDI Do you remember more or less the date on which you last met her place to place? MS SEYOE I don't remember the particular date, but it was somewhere towards the end of November or towards the beginning of December 1987. MR MALINDI And was that the last contact you had with her? MS SEYOE That is correct, Chairperson. MR MALINDI You have heard the evidence being led here. If Betty was arrested at one stage and released in December of 1987, from your knowledge of her, is she a person who would have contacted you or not afterwards? MS SEYOE Yes, she could have contacted me. MR MALINDI And is your evidence that from about the end of November, beginning of December 1987, you never heard anything from her? MS SEYOE I never had contact with her since then. MR MALINDI Thank you Chairperson, no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MALINDI CHAIRPERSON Thank you Mr Malindi. Mr Visser, any questions? MR VISSER Just a few, thank you Chairperson. CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR VISSER I'm sorry, I didn't understand exactly what dates you were referring to. Is it correct, first of all, that you made a statement which might be shown to you at page 40 of the bundle, apparently a type-written copy of a statement which you made to a Mr M M Mbete? MS SEYOE That is correct, Chairperson. MR VISSER Do you recognise that as a true type-written copy of the statement which you made to him? MS SEYOE That is correct Chairperson. MR VISSER And has this statement been shown, or read to you, before you came to give your evidence here today? MS SEYOE I saw the statement previously, Chairperson. MR VISSER Right. You see, in paragraph 4 you said "Betty Boom left the country" that is the Republic of South Africa, "in 1979." Is that correct? MS SEYOE Correct, Chairperson. MR VISSER And you say in paragraph 6 she was working hard for the ANC. MS SEYOE Correct, Chairperson. MR VISSER Did you also know that Betty Boom was trained in military warfare and that she had become an MK soldier? MS SEYOE I knew, Chairperson. MR VISSER Did she tell you that? MS SEYOE Yes she did. MR VISSER And were you aware that what she was doing in Lesotho, was organising for raids or missions into South Africa for attacks? MS SEYOE I did not know that chairperson. MR VISSER I see. Now from 1979, did I understand you correctly that the first time that you made contact, or you made contact with each other since that was in 1985, of did I misunderstand you? 86, sorry, in December 1986. That was the first time since 1979 that you made contact? MS NGONO That is correct, Chairperson, that was for the first time. CHAIRPERSON Where was she in December 1986, Betty Boom? MS SEYOE She informed me that she was in the Free State, but she did not mention a particular place where she was. MR VISSER 1986. MS SEYOE Yes. MR VISSER Did you know, or did she tell you at any stage that she was going for military training somewhere outside the country? MS SEYOE She did not tell me that Chairperson. MR VISSER Did you know or were you told by anyone at any stage that she was at some stage in Lusaka in Zambia? MS SEYOE I don't know that, Chairperson. MR VISSER Now I want you please to explain and that's why I'm asking these questions to you, you say that you met or had telephonic contact with Betty Boom on ten occasions up to 1987, is that what you said? MS SEYOE Yes, that's what I said. MR VISSER And is that since 1979, or is that since December 1986? MS SEYOE From 1986, that is when we started to contact one another. MR VISSER And you said, if I'm not mistaken, that when she contacted you in December 1986, she was somewhere in the Free State? MS SEYOE Yes. MR VISSER And where were you then? MS SEYOE I was at home. MR VISSER Where is that? MS SEYOE In Rocklands. MR VISSER Where in Rocklands? MS SEYOE 6601 Rocklands, Free State. MR VISSER Now you see, that's the point. Your sister contacts you after seven years, being away for seven years, she says to you: "I'm somewhere in the Free State". Didn't you want to know why she didn't come and see you? MS SEYOE The way occasions were, I met her personally. MR VISSER No, no, please Ms Seyoe - how do you pronounce your surname? MS SEYOE Seyoe. MR VISSER You hadn't seen her for seven years, we've established that clearly. Out of the blue in December 1986 she contacts you. Were you happy to hear from her? MS SEYOE Yes, I was happy. MR VISSER She tells you that she's somewhere in the Free States. MS SEYOE Yes, she did tell me that. MR VISSER Don't you ask her: "Where are your, are you in Bloemfontein, where are you?" MS SEYOE I did Chairperson, but she told me that she's somewhere in the Free State and thereafter we met personally, after that first telephonic conversation. MR VISSER Did she come to your house to meet with you? MS SEYOE No, she did not come at home. We made an appointment to meet somewhere, we did not meet at home. MR VISSER Alright. Where is this somewhere where you met? MR LAX The question was, where did you meet? MS SEYOE At time she would be at the corner next to the tarred road, then I would go there and meet her. MR VISSER I'm sorry, where? MS SEYOE The third street from where I was staying. MR VISSER I see. Alright. So obviously for security reason I assume, she didn't come to your house and you met secretively somewhere on a road, is that your evidence? MS SEYOE That is correct. MR VISSER Alright. Now did that occur from December 1986 onwards? MS SEYOE That is correct, Chairperson, but there were times when - we were not meeting, you know, on a daily basis. MR VISSER Well, you're a person that can remember that you met her exactly ten times. Will you please tell us, did you meet her in January 1987? MS SEYOE I'm not able to recall, Chairperson. MR VISSER February 1987? MS SEYOE I don't recall when did we meet after she phoned in 1986 December. MR VISSER Did you meet her at any stage on the street before September 1987? MS SEYOE I think we met before September. MR VISSER How sure are you of that? Remember you said you met her ten time. MR LAX She didn't say she met her ten times. She said she had contact with her, including the meetings, ten times. MR VISSER That - I stand corrected, quite correct. you had ten contacts with her. Let me ask you this then - you're absolutely correct, Commissioner Lax, I do apologise. These ten contacts that you had, both on the telephone and meeting her, how many times did you actually meet her, of those ten contacts? MS SEYOE I'm not able to tell how many times did we contact on the phone, so our personal contact is plus or minus ten times, but I don't remember how many times did we contact each other telephonically. MR VISSER Are you now saying that you had personal meetings with her on ten occasions since December 1986? MR LAX No, she said telephonic. CHAIRPERSON The ... and clarify that the interpreter said there were ten personal contacts and telephonically. Did I hear you .... INTERPRETER She says they met personally more than ten times, but she's not able to recall how many times did she have a telephonic contact with her. MR VISSER Thank you. INTERPRETER She doesn't remember how many times they had telephonic contact, but personally, they met more than ten times. MR VISSER Well that's almost what I heard, but I didn't hear the more than ten times. I only heard ten times, there were ten personal contacts, that's what I heard, I don't know whether the translation was correct or not. CHAIRPERSON That's what I heard through the translation Mr Visser. MR VISSER Well perhaps to be fair to you, can I just ask you again, did you actually meet personally with your sister Betty Boom on ten occasions since December 1986? MS SEYOE We met personally ten times, but I'm not able to recall how many times did we contact each other telephonically. MR VISSER Alright. Is what you're really saying perhaps this, I'm trying to be as fair as I possibly can, that when you talk about personal contact, you talk about meeting her and telephone calls? MS SEYOE To meet, we met more than ten times, but through the phone, I'm not able to remember how many times. MR VISSER Alright, this more than ten meetings that you had with her since December 1986, did any of those meetings take place in South Africa before September 1987? MS SEYOE I don't understand the question. MR VISSER Did you meet with your sister Betty Boom personally since December 1986, before September of 1987? MS SEYOE Yes, we met. MR VISSER So if somebody was to say that she left Lusaka only in September - I'm sorry, I stand corrected. Can I rephrase my question? Did you meet Betty Boom since December 1986, before August 1987, I'm sorry, I had the date wrong, before August 1987? So between December 86 and August 1987, did you meet her personally here in South Africa? MS SEYOE Yes, we met. MR VISSER Are you quite sure of that? MS SEYOE Yes I do. MR VISSER So if somebody was to say that Betty Boom left Lusaka in August or September of 1987, that can't possibly be correct? MS SEYOE I don't know. MR VISSER No, how can you say you don't know, because you say that you met her here in South Africa before then. MS SEYOE I met with her, but not everyday. MR VISSER Alright. Do you know a person - was your maiden name Boom? MS SEYOE Yes, that is correct, that's my maiden surname. MR VISSER Do you know a person by the name of Sam Booms? Sam? MS SEYOE I don't know. MR VISSER He was also apparently known as Mazebuku, Isaac Melusi Mazebuku, that's not a person that is related to you, is it? MS SEYOE I don't remember that person, Chairperson. MR VISSER Chairperson, it's not a secret, the reason why I'm asking that appears in the August 1996 statement of the ANC to the TRC at page 98 where that name appears as a person who died in exile as number 13 under Angola. We were just wondering whether there was some connection. And you say the last contact with Betty Boom was either the end of November or the beginning of December 1987? MS SEYOE That is correct. MR VISSER On that occasion did she phone you, or did you phone her, or did you meet personally? MS SEYOE She phoned me. MR VISSER Now will you please tell the Committee, were you aware that Betty Boom was in Lesotho around November/ December 1987? MS SEYOE I did not know where she was, when she telephoned me. MR VISSER And you don't know whose house it was, or where the telephone was that you used to phone to talk to Betty Boom, is that correct? CHAIRPERSON I suppose we should establish that who phoned who first. MR VISSER Ja, evidence-in-chief was that they phoned each other, Chairperson, but I can perhaps revisit that issue. Did you at times phone your sister Betty Boom wherever she was? MS SEYOE No, Chairperson, I did not, she was the one who was phoning me. MR VISSER I see. Alright, well then I heard it incorrectly, I'm sorry. You see, you say in paragraph 7 of your statement "She used to send messages to us at home with other comrades who used to go to Lesotho." MS SEYOE That is correct. MR VISSER But why do you mention Lesotho, if you didn't know that she was in Lesotho? MR LAX She never said she didn't know she was in Lesotho, what she said was she didn't know where she was phoning from. That was your question and that was her answer. MR VISSER Let me ask the same question I asked before. Did you know that Betty Boom was in Lesotho in November or December 1987? I asked you this before. MS SEYOE I did not know where she was because at times she would just say she's in the Free State. MR VISSER That's right. So why do you mention in paragraph 7, why do you mention Lesotho? MS SEYOE I said so because here I was not saying that at that time in November/December 1987 I knew that she was in Lesotho, I was just saying that she was in Lesotho at any particular time, which I did not know when. MR VISSER You know, I don't understand why you're not just being frank and I'll tell you why I make this allegation. In paragraph 5 you explicitly said that you last saw her in 1987 when she was in Lesotho. MS SEYOE Yes. MR VISSER So why do you deny that you knew that she was in Lesotho? I don't understand it. But let's go on. MR LAX Let her explain. If you ask her a question, let her explain. MR VISSER Can you explain? MS SEYOE In times she would be in Lesotho, yes, but other times she would be in the Free State, but not knowing where, so I would not know when she would be in Lesotho or when she would be in the Free State. MR VISSER When you say in paragraph 7 that when she sent messages to you, she never seemed to be disillusioned about the ANC, do you see that in paragraph 7? MS SEYOE Yes, that is correct, Chairperson, she seems not to be disillusioned with the ANC. MR VISSER Why did you make that statement in your document? MS SEYOE Because I knew that she had more problems with the ANC. MR VISSER That's not the answer to my question. The question is what prompted you to make that statement in your written statement? MS SEYOE I wrote this statement in this way because the person who was taking the statement asked me questions to that regard as to whether - what was her well-being. MR VISSER Yes. The person who took the statement from you, didn't he tell you what Mr Jantjie said in his amnesty application? MS SEYOE No, Chairperson, she did not tell me, because I did not even have Jantjie's Statement. MR VISSER In any event, you see, I also don't understand your evidence compared to your statement, because in your evidence you talk about ten personal contacts with her and in your statement you never refer to personal contacts, you only refer to messages. Why is that? MS SEYOE Perhaps I forgot when I was writing this statement. MR VISSER Yes. MR MALINDI Chairperson if regard is held to paragraph 5, then the statement is not that accurate that has been put to the witness. MR VISSER What is the problem Chairperson? Paragraph 5 says "I last saw her in 1987 when she was in Lesotho". MR MALINDI It means that there was contact with her besides the messages that are referred to in paragraph 7. MR VISSER Oh, I see, alright, fair enough. Let me put it this way then. You did not refer in your statement to the fact that you saw Betty Boom often, personally, do you agree with that? CHAIRPERSON What would ten occasions mean personally? We're talking about December 1986, what would ten occasions because I think the evidence that she saw the sister more than ten times, that's her evidence, from December 1986 when they made personal contact. MR VISSER I'm just asking the witness - perhaps I could put it this way, is there any particular reason why you didn't say that in your statement, you didn't refer to these personal contacts in your statement? CHAIRPERSON There's not reason, Chairperson. MR VISSER Who's Ms Semang, that you refer to in paragraph 9? MS SEYOE He's one of the ANC members from Johannesburg. MR LAX ; Sorry, is it a he or a she because it says Ms here? MS SEYOE She's one of ANC members. MR VISSER And she told you that Betty Boom was dead, she told you this in 1997. INTERPRETER May you please repeat the question ...(indistinct) MR VISSER Alright. In paragraph 9 of your statement, you alleged that the family first learned about Betty's disappearance in about 1997 when told by Ms Semang that Betty was dead. Is that statement correct? MS SEYOE That is correct, Chairperson. MR VISSER Were you present when the family was told this? MS SEYOE I was present. MR VISSER And who is Ms Semang? MS SEYOE I said she's one of the ANC members from Johannesburg. MR VISSER Did you ask her what the circumstances of Betty Boom's death were, as far as the ANC knew? MS SEYOE We asked her. MR VISSER What did she tell you? How did she know that Betty Boom was dead? MS SEYOE She informed us that it was learned that Betty Boom was killed in Ladybrand. MR VISSER Did she tell you by whom? MS SEYOE She did not say, Chairperson. MR VISSER Did you ask her what had happened to Betty Boom's remains? Where is she? MS SEYOE We were informed that Betty Boom's remains were buried somewhere in Ladybrand in one of the farms, but she did not know the particular farm. MR VISSER Do you oppose the applications of the applicants for amnesty? MS SEYOE Yes, I am against the application. MR VISSER Why is that? MS SEYOE They applied for amnesty but the statements they submitted did not state what happened to Betty Boom and others, they just stated that they abducted them from Lesotho and returned them to Lesotho, but they did not tell us the end. MR VISSER What is the end? What end is that? I don't follow you. You say they didn't tell you what? MS SEYOE They stated that they left them at the taxi rank. MR VISSER Yes, so they did tell you what happened to them. MS SEYOE They did not. MR VISSER I see. So you don't believe them, do you? MS SEYOE I don't believe them because I don't see the reason why they should take Betty from her house and then when they return her to Lesotho, why they don't take her direct to where they took her. MR VISSER Is that the reason why you don't believe their evidence? MS SEYOE That is correct. MR VISSER No further questions, thank you Chairperson. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VISSER CHAIRPERSON Thank you Mr Visser. Mr Mapoma, any questions? MR MAPOMA I have none, Chairperson, thank you. NO QUESTIONS BY MR MAPOMA CHAIRPERSON Mr Lax? MR LAX No questions, Chair. CHAIRPERSON Mr Sibanyoni? MR SIBANYONI I have got no question Mr Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Any re-examination? The other way round, I wanted when there is any everything must be covered because of time. I do apologise, that's not the procedure, but I had that in mind, even though I did not vocalise it. MR MALINDI I understand Chairperson, there's no re-examination. CHAIRPERSON Ms Seyoe, we thank you very much. That is the end of your evidence. WITNESS EXCUSED CHAIRPERSON The ball has always been in your court. MR MALINDI Thank you Chairperson. Chairperson, I beg leave to call Mrs Sejanamane. MARIA DIJENG SEJANAMANE (sworn states) CHAIRPERSON Mr Malindi, you may proceed. MR MALINDI Thank you Chairperson. EXAMINATION BY MR MALINDI Mrs Sejanamane, how are you related to Tax Sejanamane? MS SEJANAMANE Tax Sejanamane is my son. MR MALINDI Did your son at any stage leave home to go into exile? MS SEJANAMANE Yes, that is when he went to Lesotho. MR MALINDI Are you able to tell the Committee when it was that he went to Lesotho? MS SEJANAMANE The last time I saw Godfrey Thebogo Sejanamane in 1980, that is when he was still harassed by the police. They used to come and detain him. They used to fetch him from school. MR MALINDI Then after he had gone into exile, did you know where he was staying? MS SEJANAMANE Yes, I did know. MR MALINDI Where was that? MS SEJANAMANE He was at Upper Thamai in Lesotho at his wife's sister. MR MALINDI Was he staying with his wife's sister? MS SEJANAMANE He had a room there. They were not staying together in the same house. MR MALINDI You mentioned his wife, where was his wife? MS SEJANAMANE She was also there at Upper Thamai. MR MALINDI At a different place to where Tax was staying, or not? MS SEJANAMANE Yes, that is where they got married. MR MALINDI And do you know which year Tax was staying with his wife and the wife's sister's place? MR VISSER Chairperson, with respect, that's not the evidence of this witness. The evidence of this witness has been specific now that she stayed at a place different from where Mr - unless I've missed out on something. CHAIRPERSON That is correct. First they stayed at different places, unless I misheard, but I'll give you an opportunity Mr Malindi, I think I heard what Mr Visser heard. MR MALINDI Thank you Chairperson. I'm a bit confused then and maybe I should cover the ground again. CHAIRPERSON You are welcome to do that. Thank you Chairperson. Give us a moment, the interpreter is coming to get something right. MR MALINDI Ms Sejanamane, could I please ask you to clarify something? I may have been confused. You testified that Tax was staying at his wife's sister's place. MS SEJANAMANE Yes, that is correct. MR MALINDI Did he stay with his sister-in-law in the same house? MS SEJANAMANE No, they had their own room. MR MALINDI When you say they had their own room, who are you referring to? MS SEJANAMANE I mean Tax and his wife. MR MALINDI And was their own room on the same premises as his sister-in-law's house? MS SEJANAMANE That is correct, Chairperson, they were in the same yard. MR MALINDI Chairperson, if I've clarified, may I proceed again? CHAIRPERSON Then you may proceed. MR MALINDI Thank you Chairperson. Which year was it when Tax and his wife were staying in a room on the same premises where his sister-in-law's house was? MS SEJANAMANE If I recall, in 1982 they were still staying there. MR MALINDI While Tax was in exile, was the family able to communicate with him? MS SEJANAMANE Yes, we had contact. We used to go and see him there because we heard from the people that he was in Maseru, so I wanted to go and see him there. MR MALINDI At one stage the ANC and other organisations were unbanned. Did you get to meet your son thereafter? MS SEJANAMANE I have never met with him. MR MALINDI Have you been able to get any information about his whereabouts? MS SEJANAMANE When I attended a funeral at ...(indistinct) I heard from a person call Zakariah and he told me that he was - he attended Philip's Sejanamane's funeral in Tanzania, then I asked him where Tax was and he said to me Tax was not there. MR MALINDI You said that Tax was staying with his wife and the sister-in-law on the same property. Have either his wife or the sister-in-law told you what happened to Tax? MR VISSER Chairperson, I must object to this blatant hearsay. Why can't the wife and the sister be called to come and tell you? No foundation has been laid to show that this is the best evidence available to the victims. If it's important evidence to them and they want to give hearsay evidence, they've got to lay a foundation and the foundation can only be that this is the best evidence they've got. Now we know that the sister and the wife are the people who can come and say this. We don't know whether they're alive or dead, but if they're dead, well that's a different matter, but surely some foundation has to be laid. CHAIRPERSON What's your response to that, Mr Malindi? MR MALINDI Chairperson, I will ask one question which will determine the status of at least one of the two women. Since the unbanning of the ANC, have you been able to meet Tax's wife? MS SEJANAMANE I have never met her. MR MALINDI Do you know if she ever came back from Lesotho or not, Tax's wife? MS SEJANAMANE Her family told me that they were still looking for Dimakatzo, that is my son's wife and they don't know where she was. Then I also told them that I'm also looking for my son. MR MALINDI Ms Sejanamane you say Tax was being harassed, if I remember well, before he went into exile, by the police? MS SEJANAMANE That is correct, that is so, they used to harass him. MR MALINDI Do you have anything that you can give to the Committee to show that indeed he was harassed by the police before he went into exile? MS SEJANAMANE I do have some papers with me, even the day they detained him from his room at my place. MR MALINDI Chairperson at a stage I beg leave to hand up some newspaper cuttings which I have not had an opportunity to go through except to peruse them quickly. I think one of them does not have a date, because the family cut the clipping without putting a date or pulling out the whole page. Chairperson, I don't know how you would like me to do it. I could either quickly go through the relevant portions and put them on record or I could hand them up to the Committee to put them on record. CHAIRPERSON Has your opponent seen them? MR VISSER Chairperson, I would also like to say something. I don't want to interrupt you but I'd also like to say something about this at a convenient time. I don't know whether now is a convenient time. The question is simply, how is this relevant, Chairperson? How is this relevant to this application whether he was arrested or harassed as the witness says or not. I don't see the relevance. CHAIRPERSON Mr Malindi, are you wanting to say that he went into exile through the harassment, the continuous harassment, the detention, because the tenor of the evidence we heard from the applicants is that he was an MK member away from home, that's basically what it is, so that he was detained, the newspapers might say that, it's neither here nor there, because he was actually away from home. MR MALINDI Indeed Chairperson, except that we may submit at the end of the hearing that Sejanamane was not the kind of person who would have sold out so easily after having borne harassment, gone into exile, maybe he could have sold out before even going into the ...(indistinct) of going into exile. That is the only basis upon which we will submit that reports are relevant at a stage, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON I think there should be foundation as well before I accept that. MR VISSER Chairperson, can I try to make it easy for my Learned Friend here? If my Learned Friend assures you that the newspaper reports show harassment other than just a normal arrest and detention, then I believe that he should then have the right to hand it up to you. CHAIRPERSON Or wouldn't you want to see them first, or they can come directly, ... MR VISSER Perhaps we should just look at them first, Chairperson, but I'm just concerned about the relevance. We've heard so much irrelevance in this hearing and we know we're short of time, as I'm told, so I don't want to prolong the matter, I'd rather prefer to shorten it and if its going to be irrelevant, well the obviously it shouldn't be allowed. CHAIRPERSON You may hand them up to us Mr Malindi. How many are they? MR MALINDI Chairperson, may I establish that from Mr Koopedi? CHAIRPERSON I have copies in my possession which have been handed up. The Newspaper is the Friend, Bloemfontein Tuesday January 13 1981 and the headlines are, there is a picture of a man, written Mr Thebogo Sejanamane and the head lines that: "Azapo man flees" and written by Seroto Seroto. I will mark that A and the second one is in Afrikaans, I don't know form which newspaper, is that: "A funeral..." and the third paragraph of this paper cutting says "Three members of the Bloemfontein branch of AZAPO, Tax Sejanamane, Matata Lesapo and A. Sekware were taken into custody before the funeral" That would be marked B. MR VISSER Chairperson, may I remind you that we've already got an A and a B, so this would have to be C and D respectively. CHAIRPERSON Oh yes and the small one would be D and the last one would be E. It's also from the Friend, Bloemfontein, Wednesday 14 May 1980. The headlines: "Manaung teacher is detained" it says "The Treasurer of the Bloemfontein branch of the Azanian People's Organisation, (AZAPO) and a teacher at ...(indistinct) Higher Primary School, Mr Thebogo Godfrey Sejanamane, was detained by the Security Police last weekend." I would force Mr Joe Jafta to just make copies, if we have such facility here, that everybody would be in possession of these three and for the interim, could you give the list to Mrs Sejanamane, whilst you get Joe Jafta? You may proceed Mr Malindi. MR MALINDI Thank you Chairperson. Ms Sejanamane, it has already been read onto the record that your son was a teacher, do you confirm that? MS SEJANAMANE That is true. MR MALINDI Besides the incidents of harassment that are contained in the newspaper clipping that have been handed up as exhibits, were there other incidents that you know of? MS SEJANAMANE I do not understand. MR MALINDI You have just given the Committee some newspapers that show that your son was an activist and was harassed by the police. MR VISSER With great respect Chairperson, my Learned Friend keeps on saying harassed, harassed. What the news clippings show, that you have read to us, show that he was arrested. Now unless my Learned Friend wants to argue that arrest is the same as harassed, I would ask him not to use the word harassed, because at that stage, those arrests may have been lawful, I don't know whether they were or weren't, but he can't just assume that they were harassment. INTERPRETER The speaker's mike. CHAIRPERSON ...continual arrest does not suggest harassment, it might be lawful or unlawful, so we don't know the circumstances, unless you lay a basis for that. MR MALINDI Chairperson, I'll refrain from using the word harass or harassment. Mrs Sejanamane, except the incidents in the newspaper clippings involving your son and the police, were there other incidents that you know of? MS SEJANAMANE Yes. MR MALINDI Were they also carried in the local newspapers or not? MS SEJANAMANE No they did not appear in the newspapers, that is when he came back from a detention, at my home. MR MALINDI Thank you Chairperson, no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MALINDI CHAIRPERSON Thank you Mr Malindi. Mr Visser, any questions? MR VISSER Thank you Chairperson. CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR VISSER Mrs Sejanamane, I'm not sure I understood what you said. You were asked by your counsel whether you had contact with Tax Sejanamane when he was in Lesotho. Can you just tell us again what your answer was to that? MS SEJANAMANE The contact that we had was at a wedding, that is when he married the ...(indistinct) daughter, that is when I first saw him in Maseru. MR VISSER Can you remember when that was, what the date was, of that marriage ceremony? MS SEJANAMANE If I'm not mistaken, it can be around 1982 when they got married. MR VISSER Did you ever see him again after that? MS SEJANAMANE No, I never saw him again, the only person I met was my daughter. MR VISSER Who's your daughter? MS SEJANAMANE That's Margaret. MR VISSER What's she got to do with anything? Who is your daughter, what did she do? CHAIRPERSON That's the one that saw him again. MS SEJANAMANE She visited there. MR VISSER Your daughter Margaret, did she go to Lesotho to visit Tax, is that what you're saying? MS SEJANAMANE I don't know whether she visited Tax, or she just visited the place, I don't know. MR VISSER Well, I'll give you an opportunity to explain, I'm at a loss to understand the relevance of Margaret, unless I've missed out on something. MR LAX Did Margaret see Tax when she was in Lesotho? MS SEJANAMANE Yes, she told me that she saw him. MR VISSER Is that perhaps what you refer to in paragraph 6 of your statement at page 38 of the bundle when you say that you later learned, that's after he left the country to go into exile, that Tax had been seen in Maseru in the mid eighties? Is that what you learned from Margaret, is that what you're saying? Or from whom? MS SEJANAMANE No that one I heard from Zachariah. MR VISSER Alright, but the fact is you actually saw him in 1982, not so, in Lesotho? MS SEJANAMANE Yes, that's correct. MR VISSER Now let me just ask you this again to make it absolutely clear. After the wedding in 1982, did you ever see Tax again in Lesotho? MS SEJANAMANE No I haven't seen him MR VISSER Thank you. Those newspaper reports, appear to suggest that Tax was a supporter of AZAPO, does that accord with your knowledge? MS SEJANAMANE Well, I don't know, I did not understand politics then. MR VISSER Yes. Because you say in your statement in paragraph 5 "Tax left the country", that's the Republic, "for exile, to join the ANC in 1981", that's how you understood it. Is that correct? MS SEJANAMANE When he arrived at Maseru, he was welcomed by Zachariah Skwera and he told me that he was a member of the ANC. MR VISSER Alright. Fine. Now you referred to a funeral in Tanzania. Is it the newspaper report that referred to a funeral? MR LAX No, no, you're right, she spoke about a funeral. MR VISSER I believe you spoke of a funeral where Tax was not present. MS SEJANAMANE That is so. MR VISSER When was this funeral? MS SEJANAMANE I don't know the year, but it was at a place called Freedom Square, here in Bloemfontein. MR VISSER The funeral was here in Bloemfontein? MS SEJANAMANE Yes. MR VISSER Alright and whose funeral was it? MS SEJANAMANE We used to call her Old Maid Sejanamane, but she got married to Blom family. MR VISSER I'm sorry. You know I'm trying to make it easier, but it seems I'm making it more complicated as I go along. The person who died, was that a relation of yours? MS SEJANAMANE Yes, it's my husband's family. MR VISSER I see. And where did he die, or she die? MS SEJANAMANE Here in Bloemfontein at a place called Freedom Square. MR VISSER Alright. Was it a man or a woman? MS SEJANAMANE She was a woman. MR VISSER I see. You see, what confuses me and I'll tell you immediately what confuses me, is didn't you also have another close relation ... MR LAX Can I clear it up for you, Mr Visser? MR VISSER Please do Chairperson. MR LAX You see when she testified in Chief, she said that at this funeral at Freedom Square, she spoke to Zachariah who told her about something that happened somewhere else in Zambia, of another funeral in Zambia and that's where you're getting confused. MS SEJANAMANE That's correct. MR VISSER I accept what Commissioner and what the witness has confirmed. Now I want to refer you then to page 39, paragraph 8. That says that your second son, Philip Nkuntsi Sejanamane, also left for exile in about 1983/1984, is that correct? MS SEJANAMANE That is correct. MR VISSER Yes and I apologise to you, but I was confused, I thought that you were referring to his funeral in Tanzania, that's why I couldn't understand, for the life of me, how you got to Freedom Square in Bloemfontein. But thank you. Now are you sure that he died or were you told that he died in Tanzania in 1989? MS SEJANAMANE I got this telegram that I have but it was not sent at my own address, I received it from this address that appears on the envelope. MR VISSER Would you mind terribly if we had a look at that telegram because we're very interested to see what that telegram says? MS SEJANAMANE I do not have a problem, Chairperson. MR VISSER Chairperson, perhaps to save time, could I ask for a short adjournment for us to look at the newspaper reports to see whether there's anything we have to put to this witness and to look at the telegram. It may shorten proceedings. CHAIRPERSON Certainly. We'll take a short adjournment. COMMITTEE ADJOURNS ON RESUMPTION MARIA DIJENG SEJANAMANE (s.u.o.) CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Mr Visser, have you looked at the newspaper cuttings and the telegram and I suppose this fax? MR VISSER Yes, Chairperson, I have. We received a copy. Could I suggest that you accept this as Exhibit F and I do have just one or two questions on this document to the witness. Mrs Sejanamane, oh let me just put on my headphones, otherwise I might not understand what you're saying. You say you received this telegram, is that correct? MS SEJANAMANE That is correct. MR VISSER And the dates on this paragraph in the fourth line on the left-hand side from the top appears to be 08/18 which, if that is the date, it would mean the 18th of August, is that how you read it? You see, because I can't make out from my copy of Exhibit F, what the date stamp on the round stamp is, I'm not sure whether it will appear from the original. CHAIRPERSON Mr Malindi establish, because he's next to the witness. MR MALINDI ...(indistinct - speaking simultaneously) MR LAX Do you have the original? MR VISSER There might be a date on the envelope, Chairperson. I seem to recall in past years when I received telegrams that there was a date on the envelope itself. CHAIRPERSON No Mr Mapoma, give it to young eyes, they will be able to see. MR MALINDI It's definitely in 89. MR VISSER Alright. CHAIRPERSON ... a month or a day there, no, no, on the envelope. MR MALINDI On the envelope Chairperson, what appears is 18/invisible figure and then 1989. MR VISSER Thank you Chairperson, I think nothing much turns on it, but I think we can assume prima facie that this telegram is either dated or was sent on the 18th of August 1989. What I want to ask you, Mrs Sejanamane, is do you know who the person is that signed or sent this telegram? It appears to me a person with the name of Sidiso Mefenyana. Do you know who that person is? MS SEJANAMANE I don't know him. MR VISSER But he gave his address, or a contact address as a P O Box in Lusaka. You noticed that in the telegram didn't you? MS SEJANAMANE Yes, I do. MR VISSER Who did you assume sent this telegram to you? Did you assume - let me ask you straight out, did you assume this was a telegram sent to you by the ANC from Lusaka? MS SEJANAMANE I did not understand. MR VISSER Well, who else would have sent you this telegram? Your second son went to join the ANC not so, in exile. Isn't it reasonable to assume that it's on behalf of the ANC that this telegram was sent to you? MS SEJANAMANE I think the person who could send me the telegram was his brother, because they were two. MR VISSER Hang on I don't understand this, whose brother are you talking about? MS SEJANAMANE I'm referring to Godfrey Tax. MR VISSER Tax's brother? MR LAX No, what she's trying to say is that she assumed that the other brother, in other words Tax, had somehow made sure the telegram came to her. MR VISSER Is that correct? Is that what you thought? You thought it was Tax that had the telegram sent to you? MS SEJANAMANE It is not Tax, as it appears, but the only person I thought who could send me a telegram after his brother's death, could be Godfrey, that is Tax Sejanamane. MR VISSER Thank you, I understand. MR LAX Mr Visser, just for the record, I looked at the envelope and the original. The date is a Roman 8, in other words (viii), and that's why, because it's not in ordinary numerals, but if you look at it carefully, that's what it is. MR VISSER Yes, I'm not concerned about the date any longer, it's more or less August 1989. MR LAX Yes, I'm just confirming that it is in fact August. It is a Roman 8, that's why it wasn't that visible. MR VISSER Thank you Chairperson. Were you concerned when you got this telegram? You obviously were distressed, not so? MS SEJANAMANE Yes, I was. MR VISSER And this telegram invited you and your husband to obtain further details if you contacted the sender of the telegram at a P O Box number in Lusaka. You understood that? MS SEJANAMANE Yes, that's correct. MR VISSER Did you write to that P O Box number, to this person, to request for details of the death of your son? MS SEJANAMANE No, we did not write. MR VISSER Was there any particular reason why you didn't follow that up? MS SEJANAMANE I did not do that because my husband was sick with a stroke. MR VISSER You told the Committee, well I'm not even going to ask you that. You said in paragraph 11 at page 39, that could possibly be shown to you, that you're opposing the granting of amnesty to the applicant, is that correct? MS SEJANAMANE That is correct. MR VISSER And you said the reason was because you are not convinced by their story about the disappearance of Tax, is that correct? MS SEJANAMANE That is correct. MR VISSER What story is that that you refer to? MS SEJANAMANE I am not satisfied because they are applying for amnesty, but I don't know in regard with what, I don't know what they did. MR VISSER You said in March of this year, 2000, you said you were not convinced by the applicants' story. To what story are you referring? MS SEJANAMANE That is when they say they are applying for amnesty, that's when they say they apply for amnesty. MR BIZOS But that's not a story, that's an application. What is the story you're talking about? MS SEJANAMANE That is their application for amnesty. Can you really apply for amnesty if you haven't done anything? You have to explain why you're asking for an amnesty. MR VISSER And how did you know that the applicants did not explain why they were applying for amnesty in March of this year? MS SEJANAMANE I learned that they were applying for amnesty through the TRC. Kaiser Mbatha had a form from Maseru. MR VISSER So you really don't know why you're opposing this application, is that what it boils down to? MS SEJANAMANE I am against their applications because I want to know where my children are, as they were arresting my kids. I just want to know where my kids are. MR VISSER And if they can't tell you because they don't know, what then? MS SEJANAMANE How will I forgive them, if they don't tell me where my sons are? MR VISSER Mrs Sejanamane please, if they don't know where they are, how can they tell you? Are you assuming they must know, is that the point? MS SEJANAMANE How do they apply for an amnesty? MR VISSER I have no further questions. Just a moment, Mr Chairman. My attorney believes that I should just explain some of the questions Chairperson. It's really argument and I can't ask the witness, but we will refer you in argument to the statement of the ANC to the TRC from which we will show you that the name of Philip who died allegedly of natural causes in Tanzania, is also not mentioned in the list and we will make certain submission to you in that regard. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VISSER CHAIRPERSON Thank you Mr Visser. Mr Mapoma, any questions? MR MAPOMA Thank you Chairperson, I have no questions. NO QUESTIONS BY MR MAPOMA CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Any re-examination Mr Malindi? MR MALINDI None, Chairperson. NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR MALINDI CHAIRPERSON Thank you Mr Malindi. Any questions from the Panel Mr Lax? MR LAX Sorry Chair, I omitted to ask the others this question and it suddenly struck me as a relevant one. Mrs Sejanamane, do you know whether Tax or his wife had any children? MS SEJANAMANE I don't know. MR LAX Thank you Chairperson, that's all I wanted to ask. MR SIBANYONI Thank you. I've got no questions Mr Chairperson. MR LAX Mr Malindi and Mr Koopedi, would you follow up with your clients with regard to the other people and the other families, just so we can have a clear picture of who the relatives and dependants are in case it becomes a relevant issue in due course? MR MALINDI We shall do so, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Thank you Mr Lax. I don't think there's anything that arises from what members of my Panel said. Before - this brings us to the conclusion of the matter. As I discussed with counsel in chambers, ... Forgive me Mrs Sejanamane, we have finished with your evidence. You can be released and go back to your seat. WITNESS EXCUSED CHAIRPERSON As I discussed with counsel in chambers, I am worried when listening to the evidence in this matter, there are certain people who have been here and since they have not been called and because I am interested, I take it upon myself that these people should be subpoenaed. I have identified some, as I look at the bundle of papers here. They would be Bulelo, who allegedly came with the photograph of K K and I would say to you, Mr Mapoma, take advantage of the presence of Ms Ngono who testified before me to get full particularity regarding that person. MR MAPOMA It's Bulelo, Chairperson. INTERPRETER The speaker's mike. CHAIRPERSON ... Major Busisiwe Benedikatha Buthelezi. This would appear, it's faxed from the South African National Defence, it's easy to trace that person. I am interested in Nathaniel Mona Mtunya. It is my view also in addition to what I said to counsel in chamber that Tsietsi Mokhele is apparently alive and somewhere around, I want to hear him as well. I don't know from these which I have identified, that is Khadi Lindelwa Mabece and Trevor James Tsepo Pitso, if any of the legal representatives would be interested in those people, but I have identified them at least for anybody, other than the people you would come with. What I want us to do and I've implored the legal representatives, that time is of the essence, that if there is a legal representative who wants somebody to be subpoenaed by the TRC, please do so as soon as possible. As matters stand, we have now established that this matter, there won't be argument, this matter will be further heard between the 4th and 8th December 2000 at JISS Centre, Joe has undertaken to make all the logistical arrangements, but apparently a venue which he could obtain is JISS Centre, Mayfair Johannesburg where we actually started and it will continue from the 4th to the 8th. I'm mindful that there are the municipality elections on the 5th and if that is declared a public holiday, people are free to go and vote, I don't want to stand in the way of anybody's constitutional right to case his vote for whichever party he prefers. And because I have mentioned a few people, could we have an agreement that on the 4th we start at 9.00 a.m. at Jiss Centre, on the 4th of December 2000? So this matter will stand adjourned to the 4th of December at JISS Centre, but I must firstly say and I want to say this to the people of this church, that thank you very much for the venue and the treatment we have received. I have to start doing exercises because I'm bulging because of the nice food here. Thank you very much it is most appreciated. Thank you to the legal representatives. I may have been quiet most of the time, but your assistance has been invaluable. That is highly appreciated and I'm also indebted that this is done in the spirit in which it is done normally and that is gratifying to me, speaking for myself. I want to thank the translators. I think you thought you would go home early for the Christmas holidays. I'm sorry to call you back on the 4th, but thank you for your assistance and if I have stretched you, it was not intentional it was because I was busy with what I had before me and time was, in most instances, not my priority and that is my biggest weakness, I don't look at time when do you finish work, but bear with me, take it that I was not punishing you, your assistance is highly appreciated. To the victims, I would say, you have been at JISS Centre, you came here and you stayed throughout in attendance. Thank you for the attendance. The rest I will conclude with a JISS Centre when we are concluding this matter because I know for now, there is a gripe that we don't know what happened to our victims, but it is not time for me now to comment on that at this juncture. I am not forgetting the applicants. Thank you for coming in and Mr Robertshaw, you showed great interest. You stayed in throughout. Thank you, if we have taken you away from your work, we thank you for your co-operation you've shown. We will adjourn now until the 4th of December 2000 at JISS Centre. MR VISSER Chairperson, just before you rise, it's not that I want the last word, but there are just two issues that I have to raise with you. The first issue is that we did not seem to get the fourth name that you mentioned. You mentioned Mr Buthelezi, Mtunya and Bulelo, but we didn't hear the fourth name that you mentioned. CHAIRPERSON ...(indistinct) MR VISSER Mokhele? CHAIRPERSON ...(indistinct - mike not on) MR VISSER Pietsi? CHAIRPERSON ...(indistinct - mike not on) MR VISSER Tsietsi? Yes, I'm sorry, that's the person at page 30 of the record. CHAIRPERSON . ..(indistinct - mike not on) those are the applicants. MR VISSER Thank you Chairperson. Let me just place on record, we have no interest in people like Khadi and so on, in fact we would have argued that his evidence was irrelevant to this application anyway, so we would not add to that list as present advised. Chairperson, there remain two things, one is through the efforts of Mr Mapoma, for which we thank him, he has obtained a photocopy, or rather a fax from which photocopies have been made of the original statement taken from Ms Thobeka Ngono and for completeness of the record, could we ask you to accept that as Exhibit G? My Learned Friend Mr Mapoma, has assured me that he's compared that statement to the statement which appears in your bundle, and it's identical, so it is handed to you for you to check for yourself, if you wish and then lastly Chairperson - Oh if there aren't copies, please take mine. Chairperson last issue is we would obviously need a record because it's most helpful, particularly during Argument and it often serves as to avoid arguments as to what witnesses said or didn't say. Could you perhaps use your auspices in order to ensure that we might be able to get a record of these proceedings for these past two days as soon as possible, so that we can be properly prepared when we appear before you again on the 4th of December? CHAIRPERSON Thank you for that reminder. It's actually of great assistance because you know after some time, sometimes your notes don't even make sense to yourself, who you took and if we have this transcription now - Mr Mapoma I would revert to you. Please I am not in Cape Town next week, I'm in a hearing. Utilise next week that that must be ready and I say when I get to Cape Town on the 27th of this month, I want to see that transcript. You can even phone Adv Martin Coetzee that it is a direct tip from me, that on the 27th I want to see that transcript on my desk, not that it is being readied, I must walk in and find it on my desk. MR MAPOMA As the Chairperson pleases. COMMITTEE ADJOURNS