amntrans AMNESTY HEARING 2000-11-20 IDASA CENTRE, PRETORIA 1 KEVIN MABALENGWE MANDLAKOMO https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=54570&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/2000/201120pt.htm CHAIRPERSON ...(inaudible) logistical and otherwise due to matters which were beyond our control and we apologise for not having been able to start at traditional time. But be that as it may, we will now hear the application of Mr Mandlakomo. I'm going to ask the legal representatives to put themselves on record starting with Mr Koopedi. MR KOOPEDI Thank you Chairperson. My name is Brian Koopedi. I am appearing for the applicant, Mr Kevin Mandlakomo, in this matter. CHAIRPERSON Thank you Mr Koopedi. Ms Moloisane? MS MOLOISANE Thank you Mr Chairperson. My name is Lisago Moloisane from the Pretoria Bar, I'm representing the victim's family, that is Mr Sipho Ngema's family. CHAIRPERSON Thank you, Ms Moloisane. Mr Mapoma? MR MAPOMA Thank you Chairperson, my name is Zuko Mapoma. I'm the Evidence Leader for the Amnesty Committee. CHAIRPERSON Thank you Mr Mapoma. Mr Koopedi, is there anything that you want to put on record or do you want your client to be sworn in? MR KOOPEDI There's nothing to put on record at this stage, Chairperson. We're ready to proceed and my client can be sworn in, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. KEVIN MABALENGWE MANDLAKOMO (sworn states) EXAMINATION BY MR KOOPEDI Thank you Chairperson. Mr Mandlakomo, is it correct that you are an applicant in this matter which relates to the killing of Sipho Ngema during 1988? MR MANDLAKOMO Yes. MR KOOPEDI I'm going to ask you to speak up because I'm not sure they're hearing you. Is that correct? MR MANDLAKOMO It is correct. MR KOOPEDI When this killing happened, were you a member of any political organisation? MR MANDLAKOMO Yes, I was a member of the ANC. MR KOOPEDI Were you also a member of it's armed wing? MR MANDLAKOMO Yes. MR KOOPEDI When did you join ANC?? MR MANDLAKOMO 1981. MR KOOPEDI Where did you join the ANC? MR MANDLAKOMO It was in Lesotho. MR KOOPEDI Did you undergo any military training? MR MANDLAKOMO Yes. MR KOOPEDI Where did you undergo military training? MR MANDLAKOMO Angola and Germany. MR KOOPEDI Now after your military training you were at some stage deployed in Swaziland, is that correct? MR MANDLAKOMO Yes that is correct. MR KOOPEDI When were you deployed in Swaziland? MR MANDLAKOMO It was in 1987. MR KOOPEDI And what were you to do in Swaziland? MR MANDLAKOMO Actually our comrades were being harassed by askaris and hit squads from the South African Government and we were to counter that. MR KOOPEDI And what exactly do you mean by that, they're countering this harassment by askaris and hit squad members? MR MANDLAKOMO We were to identify them first, why it is needed to eliminate them. MR KOOPEDI Now you refer to "we", who is this "we". Did you belong to a unit? MR MANDLAKOMO Yes I belonged to a unit but unfortunately all of them passed away. MR KOOPEDI Can you remember how many of you were in the unit? MR MANDLAKOMO We were four. MR KOOPEDI You were four? MR MANDLAKOMO Yes. MR KOOPEDI Can you name the people who were in your unit? MR MANDLAKOMO It was Shezi, Thabiso, Dumele and myself. MR KOOPEDI Are all these travelling names, MK names or were these their real names? MR MANDLAKOMO The other one is his real name and the two the combat names. MR KOOPEDI Which one are you referring to when you say it's his real name? MR MANDLAKOMO Dumele. MR KOOPEDI Dumele. Do you have a surname? MR MANDLAKOMO Xiniya. MR KOOPEDI X-I-N-I-Y-A? MR MANDLAKOMO Yes. MR KOOPEDI Right. Now let's go to the events leading to the death of Mr Ngema. What ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON Sorry Mr Koopedi. Who was the commander of this unit, Mr Mandlakomo? MR MANDLAKOMO On the scene of this it was Thabiso but Shezi was the commander but he wasn't there. CHAIRPERSON So Thabiso in this operation, Thabiso was commanding? MR MANDLAKOMO Yes. CHAIRPERSON But the unit was under the general command of Shezi? MR MANDLAKOMO Yes. CHAIRPERSON Sorry, thank you Mr Koopedi. MR KOOPEDI Thank you Chairperson. Now let's go to the events of that day. What happened, what led to the killing of the late Mr Ngema? MR MANDLAKOMO Initially, Mr Ngema was one of us and he defected. MR KOOPEDI When you say one of you, what do you mean? Was he a member of MK? MR MANDLAKOMO He was a member of MK. MR KOOPEDI Thank you. Please proceed? MR MANDLAKOMO And he defected us and he started his actions of identifying our people and they were harassed. MR KOOPEDI Okay, please go on? MR MANDLAKOMO Well I will not have something to say like saying he was harassing us by doing this but I was made to understand that he's one of the people who is harassing our people so he must be eliminated. So I got those orders that he should be eliminated. MR KOOPEDI From whom did you get the order, was that from within your unit or from somewhere else? MR MANDLAKOMO No, it was within the unit. MR KOOPEDI Do you remember who precisely gave you that order? MR MANDLAKOMO It was Thabiso. MR KOOPEDI And what was the order, the precise terms of the order? MR MANDLAKOMO The order was to kill him. MR KOOPEDI Now how did you - did execute this order? MR MANDLAKOMO Yes I executed the order. MR KOOPEDI How did you go about doing it, where did you find the deceased and how was the order executed? MR MANDLAKOMO It was in a restaurant, a Mozambique Restaurant in Manzini. MR KOOPEDI Manzini, that is in Swaziland. MR MANDLAKOMO In Swaziland, yes. MR KOOPEDI Yes and what happened in this restaurant? MR MANDLAKOMO You know, people were drinking, some were eating and we found him. He was seated in a corner. MR KOOPEDI And what did you do? Did you say anything to him? What happened? MR MANDLAKOMO No, I just told him to identify himself to confirm that he was Sipho and he did. MR KOOPEDI And thereafter? MR MANDLAKOMO I shot him. MR KOOPEDI How many times? MR MANDLAKOMO Four times. MR KOOPEDI Where on his body did you shoot him? MR MANDLAKOMO At the chest and head. MR KOOPEDI And after shooting him what did you do? MR MANDLAKOMO I left the restaurant. MR KOOPEDI Who was with you when this happened? Who was with you? MR MANDLAKOMO I was with Dumele. MR KOOPEDI And Dumele, is it the same person, a member of your unit? MR MANDLAKOMO Yes. MR KOOPEDI Or who was a member of your unit. MR MANDLAKOMO Thabiso was driving. MR KOOPEDI So you had a get away car so to speak? MR MANDLAKOMO Yes. MR KOOPEDI And Thabiso was outside? MR MANDLAKOMO He was outside. MR KOOPEDI And did you go into the car? MR MANDLAKOMO Yes we went into the car. MR KOOPEDI And where did you drive to? MR MANDLAKOMO Mbabane. MR KOOPEDI Did you report this to anyone after? MR MANDLAKOMO I did not report it to anyone. MR KOOPEDI Were you made to believe that this matter was reported? Did Thabiso say he will report this matter to Shezi for instance or any person? MR MANDLAKOMO No, he did not indicate that. MR KOOPEDI Okay. Now in the bundle of documents that are before this Honourable Committee you have referred to Mr Vusi Mavembele as having been in some kind of authoritarian situation. Can you briefly explain what was Mr Mavembele's role if any in this matter? MR MANDLAKOMO Well he was the head of the RPMC in Swaziland. MR KOOPEDI When you say RPMC are you referring to the Regional Political Military Council? MR MANDLAKOMO Yes. MR KOOPEDI Of the ANC? MR MANDLAKOMO Yes. So his involvement in the unit I don't know, never seen him, members of the unit. MR KOOPEDI What you basically are saying is that he was the most senior ANC person in the region as far as you were concerned? MR MANDLAKOMO I was made to believe that. MR KOOPEDI Okay. Now is there anything that you think is relevant or you know to be relevant to this matter that you have left out? MR MANDLAKOMO Not that I know of. MR KOOPEDI This killing, was it politically motivated? MR MANDLAKOMO It was. MR KOOPEDI Can you explain what the political motivation is? MR MANDLAKOMO The political motivation is that Swaziland was our transit for our people to go home, so when there is a unit of this nature like the Sipho's and others that will block that way, then we find it necessary that we should counter their actions. MR KOOPEDI Okay. Did you benefit anything materially, personally? Did you benefit anything? MR MANDLAKOMO Personally, no. MR KOOPEDI And finally, this killing, were you party to a decision that was taken or were you just ordered to proceed and kill Mr Ngema? MR MANDLAKOMO Well I was ordered to do that. MR KOOPEDI Thank you Chairperson, no further questions at this stage. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR KOOPEDI CHAIRPERSON Thank you Mr Koopedi Ms Moloisane? CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS MOLOISANE Thank you Chairperson. You told this Committee that at the time of the killing your commander was Thabiso, is that so? MR MANDLAKOMO Correct. MS MOLOISANE When did he actually issue the instruction that Mr Ngema should be eliminated or killed? MR MANDLAKOMO When we saw him in Manzini at the restaurant. MS MOLOISANE Yes, but how long before the actual killing did he issue this instruction? MR MANDLAKOMO Well I would not remember that but it was some time. MS MOLOISANE Yes, but what I need clarification on, how long? Was it days before the actual killing or a few hours before the actually killing? MR MANDLAKOMO Days before, yes. MS MOLOISANE But then on this particular day you told the Committee that at the time of the killing Thabiso wasn't there. Initially in your evidence, that's what you say? MR MANDLAKOMO Sorry, come again? MS MOLOISANE Initially in your evidence you told the Committee that at the time of the killing Thabiso was not there? MR MANDLAKOMO I said Shezi wasn't there. MS MOLOISANE You say Shezi was not there? MR MANDLAKOMO Yes. MS MOLOISANE But then when as you were driving away from the scene immediately after the killing you told this Committee that you were with Shezi and Thabiso was driving? MR MANDLAKOMO I said I was with Dumele. MS MOLOISANE I'm sorry, Mr Chairperson. I've nothing further Mr Chairperson. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS MOLOISANE CHAIRPERSON Thank you, Ms Moloisane. Mr Mapoma any questions? CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MAPOMA Thank you Chairperson. Mr Mandlakomo, Shezi was a unit commander, that's your evidence. Is it so? MR MANDLAKOMO Yes. MR MAPOMA And now did he know of this mission to eliminate Sipho? MR MANDLAKOMO I think as a unit commander he knew. MR MAPOMA Yes. Now who was going to report this to the unit commander that this mission of elimination of Shezi? MR MANDLAKOMO Well I should think it was the responsibility of Thabiso who was in the scene. MR MAPOMA Yes, now to your knowledge did Thabiso convey that message or that report to the unit commander? MR MANDLAKOMO Not that I know of. MR MAPOMA You know, I'm asking this question because if this was an operation of the unit naturally the unit commander might have been made to know that the mission has been accomplished, the mission which is supposed to have been instructed by him as a unit commander. If that did not happen, ones impression would be that you were doing your own thing, not that of the unit? MR MANDLAKOMO Well it was not my responsibility to report, it was the responsibility of Thabiso to do that so if he wrote the report he wasn't going to show me. MR MAPOMA Now you say he defected from the ANC. What do you mean by that? MR MANDLAKOMO I was made to understand that he defected. He was a member of MK. MR MAPOMA Yes? MR MANDLAKOMO And all of a sudden he wasn't, that's what I was told. MR MAPOMA Did he defect to serve the enemy for instance? MR MANDLAKOMO That's what I was made to understand. MR MAPOMA Thank you Chairperson. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MAPOMA CHAIRPERSON Thank you Mr Mapoma. Would that be the Security Forces of South Africa? MR MANDLAKOMO I was made to believe that. CHAIRPERSON That he had joined the Security Forces? MR MANDLAKOMO Yes. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Has the panel got any questions? ADV SANDI Thank you Chairperson, maybe one or two. Did you know Sipho Ngema before this incident? Had you worked with him before as MK members? MR MANDLAKOMO No. ADV SANDI So that explains the reason why you asked him if he was Sipho Ngema and he said yes then you shot him? MR MANDLAKOMO Well I knew he was Sipho Ngema because I'd seen him Swaziland after he had defected. ADV SANDI Yes, but why did you have to ask him? MR MANDLAKOMO It was a confirmation. ADV SANDI Was he the only person who was killed on the basis of this suspicion that he was working for the other side? MR MANDLAKOMO It's only him that I know of. ADV SANDI Do you know if any attempt was made to eliminate other suspects as well? MR MANDLAKOMO Not that I know of. ADV SANDI Yes, I'm asking this question because I want to establish if we're not dealing here with perhaps an isolated incident, who may have been killed for some other reason? MR MANDLAKOMO Well maybe there are other incidences but I was only involved in this one and this is the one what I know of and I was just a subordinate in the unit, so I might not have been briefed of other missions because of security reasons. ADV SANDI Were you told when he had defected to the other side? MR MANDLAKOMO It was around '86, if my memory serves me well. ADV SANDI Were you given any specifics as to the kinds of actions he was involved in the capacity of furthering the interests of the other side against the ANC and MK? MR MANDLAKOMO Yes. ADV SANDI What specifics? MR MANDLAKOMO It was identifying our people to the hostile elements. ADV SANDI Who had he identified at that stage? MR MANDLAKOMO Well I didn't ask that but we were so many in Swaziland, who I was believe he knew of. ADV SANDI Did anything happen to the people you've referred to as the result of him having pointed them out? MR MANDLAKOMO I'm sorry, come again? ADV SANDI What happened to the people he pointed out? MR MANDLAKOMO I was made to believe that he identify Mr Kersias Make who was killed from the airport but I don't know how far true is that. ADV SANDI Thank you. Thank you Chairperson. ADV BOSMAN One question, Mr Mandlakomo. From whom or from where did Thabiso derive his authority to give you an order? He was not the unit commander? MR MANDLAKOMO Well I was made to understand that they were reporting straight to the head office in Lusaka. ADV BOSMAN Who was reporting straight to the head office, Thabiso? MR MANDLAKOMO Thabiso and Shezi, they were ...(intervention) ADV BOSMAN Yes but did Thabiso hold a particular rank within the unit, was he the second-in-command or what was his position, why could he give ...(intervention) MR MANDLAKOMO He was second-in-command, yes. ADV BOSMAN Okay, thank you. CHAIRPERSON Re-examination Mr Koopedi? MR KOOPEDI Nothing in re-examination, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Yes, thank you Mr Mandlakomo, you're excused. WITNESS EXCUSED MR KOOPEDI Chairperson, we are not calling any other witness and that will be the applicant's case. CHAIRPERSON Yes, thank you Mr Koopedi. Ms Moloisane are you ...(inaudible)? MS MOLOISANE No evidence to be led, Mr Chairperson, thank you. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Mr Mapoma? MR MAPOMA No further evidence, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Thank you Mr Mapoma. Mr Koopedi, have you got any submissions on the merits of this application? MR KOOPEDI IN ARGUMENT I do Chairperson and it's a very brief submission. Chairperson, Honourable Committee Members, it's my submission that this applicant has complied with the requirements of the Act that enables yourselves to consider granting amnesty. It's my submission, Chairperson, that this killing was politically motivated. According to the evidence that is before you this applicant was given information by his superiors and the information was that the deceased was an askari, an institution well known to the - acting on the other side of the ANC and uMkhonto weSizwe. It is my further submission, Chairperson, that this applicant who was a subordinate in the unit or what we normally refer to as a foot soldier, this applicant was ordered to proceed and execute the late Sipho Ngema and in compliance with the orders so given to him, he proceeded and did that. I wish to submit further, Chairperson, that it is evident that there was no personal or material gain there on the part of the applicant. He didn't receive anything. And finally, Chairperson, it's my submission that all the relevant facts have been put before yourselves and I would ask that you favourably consider this application. Thank you Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Thank you Mr Koopedi. Ms Moloisane, have you got any submissions? MS MOLOISANE Yes Honourable Chairperson and Committee Members. In response to what my colleague has just said now, Mr Chairperson, we have a problem as far as the requirements of Section 21C are concerned, that the applicant has made a full disclosure of all the relevant facts. When the applicant was cross-examined by my learned friend, Mr Mapoma, he says when asked who was going to convey the message to the overall commander, he says - the answer he gave - I mean, he was asked who was the person who was going to convey the message to the overall commander and the answer was "not that I know of" and he was again asked why - let me rephrase this one Mr Chairperson. He again told this Committee that he was made to understand that the deceased in this matter, Mr Sipho Ngema, was serving the enemy. He hadn't by himself established whether Mr Ngema was serving the enemy. He was just operating on what his immediate commander was telling him, he did not even verify with the overall commander whether this was true or not or whether this was just an isolated incident of settling his course between, you know, people from the same place, serving in the same organisation or serving in the armed wing of the ANC. ADV BOSMAN Ms Moloisane, would one in the normal course expect a foot soldier to question the order of his commander and to verify that the order is based on some justifiable course? MS MOLOISANE Ms Committee Member, in certain instances it has actually happened and it does actually happen for one to verify whether indeed the action that you have commit the act that you have to commit is in accordance with a command that comes from the top structure of the organisation. So if I understand what the applicant is saying, what he's saying is that he did not know, he had no knowledge. All that he did was just to eliminate, to kill the deceased, Mr Ngema. I have nothing further to submit, Mr Chairperson and Committee Members, thank you. CHAIRPERSON Thank you Ms Moloisane. Mr Mapoma, any submissions? MR MAPOMA Chairperson none, except just to respond a bit from what has been raised by my learned friend Ms Moloisane. Whilst Chairperson, the applicant did not know whether the order was given was reported back to the unit commander. One needs to understand, Chairperson, that this Thabiso who gave the order was a commander in his own right from the version of the applicant and generally in all the force matters, the operatives, foot soldiers, theirs was to execute an order and not ask questions. I mean that's the general trend that has been gathered throughout these hearings of this nature. Thank you Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Thank you Mr Mapoma. Mr Koopedi, is there anything else that you wanted to add? MR KOOPEDI IN REPLY Perhaps a brief reply to what counsel has said in her address. I submit, Chairperson, that there is no evidence whatsoever that this was a personal matter or a matter of settling scores as it was put by counsel. I also submit, Chairperson, in reply that there was no way that the applicant could have had the discretion whether to or not to carry out the order. He was given an order and as a foot solider he simply had to comply be it wrong or right. And finally, I wish to add, Chairperson, that the applicant was not even present when the decision was taken. He therefore had no knowledge whatsoever and did not even participate in the decision making or in confirming whether or not the deceased was an askari. Thank you Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Thank you Mr Koopedi. That concludes the application. The panel will consider the application as well the submissions that were made to us and we will produce a decision in the matter once we are ready to do so. So in the circumstances the decision will be reserved. We thank the legal representatives for their assistance in this matter and we also thank the widow for having attended the proceedings again. So in the circumstances we will notify all of the parties with an interest in the matter once the decision is available. Mr Mapoma is there anything else? MR MAPOMA Chairperson, I understand that the deceased was a married person and we have his wife here. I would recommend, Chairperson, that her name be referred to the Reparation and Rehabilitation Committee. MS NGEMA My name is Zanele Ngema, presently residing in Swaziland. ADV BOSMAN Are you a South African citizen there? MS NGEMA Yes, I'm a South African by birth but I've got Swazi citizenship. My address is 214 Manzini. I have a son who is 18 years, presently 18 years old now, at school doing Standard 10. CHAIRPERSON Is he born of the marriage with the deceased? MS NGEMA Yes, that is true. CHAIRPERSON Is that the only child? MS NGEMA That is the only child. CHAIRPERSON Yes, the address that you gave us, 214 Manzini, is that your physical address? MS NGEMA We don't have physical addresses in Swaziland, we use postal addresses. CHAIRPERSON So is this a postal address? MS NGEMA That is correct. CHAIRPERSON So is this box? MS NGEMA P O Box 214. CHAIRPERSON Okay, thank you. Thank you very much, we've noted that and we have noted the request that was submitted to us by Mr Mapoma. Yes thank you, you will then be excused if you so wish Ms Moloisane and your client as well and Mr Koopedi and your client if you want to. Mr Mapoma is there anything else that we have on the roll? MR MAPOMA Chairperson, that is the only matter that was ready for today's roll. Well, the remaining matters as things are now will only be hearable tomorrow. CHAIRPERSON Very well. We are then going to adjourn the proceedings. I intend to start at 9.30, would that be in order? MR MAPOMA That would be in order, Chairperson, yes. CHAIRPERSON Very well we'll then adjourn the proceedings and we will reconvene here tomorrow morning at 9.30. We're adjourned. COMMITTEE ADJOURNS