amntrans AMNESTY HEARINGS 2000-11-21 PRETORIA 2 ENOCH MOESENG MASHOALA AM7078/97 https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=54572&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/2000/201121pt.htm CHAIRPERSON Mr Mapoma, what is next? MR MAPOMA The next matter, Chairperson, is that of Mr Mashoala. CHAIRPERSON Do you need a few moments or are you able to just proceed? MR MAPOMA I think we can just proceed, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Very well. We'll then excuse whoever wants to be excused. MR MASHOALA Mr Mashoala CHAIRPERSON If you'll just give us a few moments, we're just waiting for the bundles to come down then we can start. Yes, I think we're ready to proceed. The next matter on the roll is the application of Enoch Moeseng Mashoala. The amnesty reference number is AM7078/97. The panel is constituted as would be apparent from the record. The Leader of Evidence is still Mr Mapoma. I am going to afford an opportunity to Mr Joubert to put himself on record on behalf of the applicant. MR JOUBERT Thank you Honourable Chairperson and Members of the Committee. H P Joubert from Pretoria Bar on behalf of the applicant in this matter. CHAIRPERSON Thank you Mr Joubert. Do you want your client to be sworn in? MR JOUBERT Honourable Chairperson yes, he will testify under oath and he will choose to testify in Swana. CHAIRPERSON Yes, we do have the interpreter available. ENOCH MOESENG MASHOALA (sworn states) EXAMINATION BY MR JOUBERT Thank you Honourable Chairperson. Mr Mashoala, you have applied for amnesty and your application is contained on pages 1 to 7 of the bundle of documents presently before the Committee, is that correct? MR MASHOALA That is correct. MR JOUBERT Now if we turn to page 1 of the application, you will note at the top of the page there is an inscription there that says "Note - this is not the original amnesty application form" there's a little cross or star, "1-19 additions made to application, April 2000 after the date of commission of the application." Were certain further additions made to the initial application by yourself? MR MASHOALA Yes. MR JOUBERT And those are those additions which are marked in this application everytime with a little star and a number next to them, is that correct? MR MASHOALA That is correct. MR JOUBERT Now on page 1, the only issue that has changed there is your address as such, the rest of the page you confirm as correct? MR MASHOALA Yes, it's only the address that has changed. MR JOUBERT You are presently in the employ of the South African Defence Force, is that correct? MR MASHOALA That is correct, I am a member of the South African National Defence Force. MR JOUBERT Thank you. Now if we turn to page 2 where you refer - that will be paragraph a(i) where you refer to the acts, the omissions and the offences. In your initial application were you assisted at all by a legal representative or did you complete it on your own? MR MASHOALA Not at all, on my own. MR JOUBERT And these additions that you made to the application were they made at the request of the Truth and Reconciliation Commission? MR MASHOALA That is correct. MR JOUBERT Did you have any assistance when you made them? Legal assistance? MR MASHOALA There was no assistance, I did it on my own. MR JOUBERT Now you are aware that there have been amnesty applications prior to this by inter alia Mr Thoka Pitsi Maleka and those are the applications referred to from page 45 onwards in the bundle of documents? MR MASHOALA Yes I am aware. MR JOUBERT These applicants here, were they members of a unit that served under your command? MR MASHOALA These members, Thoka who had direct contact with him and then the rest of the other members, they were under Thoka. So it was none of our business as to whether they are having those members under them or not except that we only termed those units under certain names. MR JOUBERT You did not attend the hearing of their applications? MR MASHOALA Not at all, I was not present. MR JOUBERT You were not present, you were not advised? MR MASHOALA I was not advised also, also not informed. MR JOUBERT And up to today you still have not had any sight of the proceedings there, you do not know what was specifically testified, is that correct? MR MASHOALA Definitely. MR JOUBERT Now, on page 2 where we refer to the acts and omissions, you say that "The units which we commanded from Botswana, one under the command of Mainstay, attacked a shebeen in Mamelodi where four policemen were reportedly killed. The other one in Tembisa, attacked Municipal offices, no casualties were reported" and you give dates '87 and '88. Are you hundred percent sure of those specific dates? MR MASHOALA I'm not hundred percent sure on that. For an example later on after I've contacted Thoka I learnt that in fact that operation which was carried out around Pretoria area it was in fact in Atteridgeville not in Mamelodi. MR JOUBERT So this, where you refer to Mamelodi is a mistake on your part? MR MASHOALA It is a mistake on my part because there are a lot of operations which were carried out by the very same units also in Mamelodi. MR JOUBERT Now your duty as chief of staff, stationed in Botswana, what did that entail, your duties? MR MASHOALA My duties? It entailed facilitating movement of trained personnel, that is inside the country, the reconnaissance of borders, the establishment of contacts around the border areas, to facilitate that movement as well as the supply of members with both the material in a form of a sketch or actually giving them the hard material as well as taking care of the transport which we were utilising in Botswana. MR JOUBERT Now if you refer now to the people that you were assisting, are those MK soldiers and cadres that were infiltrated into the Republic of South Africa? MR MASHOALA Come again? MR JOUBERT The people that you refer to, are those the MK cadres that were infiltrated into South Africa? MR MASHOALA That is correct, mainly MK cadres and nobody else. MR JOUBERT And you were a member of MK yourself? MR MASHOALA I was a member of MK and I was a member of the Botswana Regional Command in terms of military operations. MR JOUBERT And is it correct that you served - who was your superior officer? MR MASHOALA My superior officer, it was Naledi that is Patrick Mvundla who was attacked in one of my houses in 1988 together with the three Botswana Naledis and they died. MR JOUBERT Would that be Naledi Molefe to whom is referred ...(intervention) MR MASHOALA This was his combat name but his real name, it was Patrick Mvundla. MR JOUBERT And that is the person referred to on page 48 of the bundle of documents? MR MASHOALA That is correct. MR JOUBERT In paragraph 2, Honourable Chairperson. Now you carry on to say on page 2 of your application that - or let me first put this to you, the unit in Tembisa that you referred to, was that a different unit from the one of which Thoka was a commander? MR MASHOALA It was a different unit from the one of Des Mabida's structure. MR JOUBERT And do you know if any of the members of that unit had applied for amnesty at any stage? MR MASHOALA They have applied for amnesty. MR JOUBERT Were you present at those proceedings? MR MASHOALA I was not present at those proceedings. MR JOUBERT So you don't know whether there was any reference to you at all? MR MASHOALA I'm not very sure whether there was any reference. MR JOUBERT Now your duties entailed, as you indicated, would you also convey or would you receive instructions from superior officers and convey this to your insubordinates? MR MASHOALA That is correct, most of the cases it's either a member of the leadership would arrive in Botswana, let's say for an example the retired Lt. Gen. Maloi or the late Chris Hani whereby I would actually sit down and discuss in terms of what is it that is supposed to happen with regards to the intensification of the armed struggle. Or in some cases when we have been arrested by the Botswana Police, would actually be deported back to Lusaka and that will afford us an opportunity to once more consult with the military HQ in terms of the main direction in terms of escalating the armed struggle. MR JOUBERT The armed struggle. Now this would be conveyed to your insubordinates and the operatives on the ground. Would they be given a discretion at all in the way in which to operate? MR MASHOALA Definitely. The type of a training we're first giving to former members of uMkhonto weSizwe, it was such that if a member has been sent inside a country, he should be in a position to act independently and use his own discretion because in terms of the security situation it was not allowing them to some sort of contact us or consult for their approval because moving up and down, operating illegally, it will compromise them. So the type of a training is such that us from Botswana would actually give him instructions in a order perspective, that for an example you've got to identify targets like policemen, SADF members, those individuals perceived to be collaborating, colluding with the apartheid system. The councillors, we then regarded them as legitimate targets. So it's upon individuals, when inside the country, that they can identify those targets, reconnoitre those targets and when they are satisfied, they attack them at will. The only thing they will do is to report back to us that such and such a target has been attacked. MR JOUBERT And you were at no stage personally, physically involved in the carrying out of any operations, is that correct? MR MASHOALA Definitely I was not involved. MR JOUBERT You indicate on page 2 that your only physical involvement was pertaining to the reconnaissance of the border in the Garapeng, is that correct? MR MASHOALA I said that but you see in fact all what I was trying to say here is, as the chief of staff and the person responsible for the routes of infiltration and exfiltration, before we can actually utilise any crossing point, it was my duty to actually go to the border area, check that border physically, establish like we managed to establish contact with Mr Dawana Moelema in Garapeng, would then assist us with certain people from inside the country with whom we can actually utilise this, for them to ferry people inland. So the physical aspect part of it I'm referring to is in that fashion. Not necessarily meaning that at all times I will be involved because under my command I had also people who were responsible for the border reconnaissance. So for the initial, I would actually go there an then when the bases have been laid, I would actually introduce like for an example Noga, who would at times if I don't go to the borders, he'll go there in terms of infiltrating members. MR JOUBERT Now you said that the different units and people had a measure of discretion to identify targets. There was a broad indication, was that given to them to what would be a legitimate target? MR MASHOALA That is correct. Like I have indicated earlier on, policemen, the army, councillors, those people who tend to be askaris. They were legitimate targets and those individuals who were perceived to be aiding the apartheid system in one or the other, we regarded them as legitimate targets. They would also be eliminated. MR JOUBERT Now if an operative were to identify a target and then act against this target, this operative or this unit would then report back to command in Botswana where you were stationed, is that correct? MR MASHOALA They reported back not physically most of the time. You see like for an example specifically with this unit of Mabida unit, we had a box number in Moegoditsane which was manned by the girlfriend to Thoka. Then whenever there's an operation which has been carried out they will communicate with that lady, Sidi. Sidi then in turn she will give us the message. Then at my place I had a preplanned communication which then I'd take that message and decipher in terms of what does it mean. For an example it would indicate that there's an operation, maybe four ladies then it would mean maybe four policemen. MR JOUBERT Yes. MR MASHOALA And then maybe attacked. MR JOUBERT Yes but the essence the result of any attack would be conveyed back to command centre? MR MASHOALA That is correct. That was also another way of actually monitoring because if units are inside the country they were given also monies. Now they had to account in terms of what happened to the monies. MR JOUBERT Okay. Would each and every attack that happened, would that have been reported to you personally or would you have only got to know of certain of the attacks or certain of the issues and would others have gone to other superior people? MR MASHOALA That was reported directly to us but like for an example not in all cases one will be in Botswana. There are situations whereby you are being arrested and deported. Like for an example in the case after the attack of the four policemen, when my house in Botswana was attacked I was not in Botswana, in that I left with one of the members who was injured to take him across to Zimbabwe for him to be addressed. MR JOUBERT Yes. MR MASHOALA So that situation it was a ...(indistinct) situation. You find that in the meantime certain units inside the country they are carrying out operations then they'll report to other members like Naledi. MR JOUBERT Yes so you would not necessarily know of each and every operation? MR MASHOALA No, we didn't know of each and everything. MR JOUBERT When you refer to the attack on the policemen and the person who was injured, was that Pitsi? MR MASHOALA That is Pitsi. MR JOUBERT To whom reference is made in the decision from page 45 onwards? MR MASHOALA That is correct, when they were attacking the policemen specifically. MR JOUBERT Specifically? MR MASHOALA Yes. MR JOUBERT Now can you recall each and every operation, names, places that had been attacked or had happened? MR MASHOALA I would be lying, I cannot. To the best of my ability like I'm saying some of the other operations you will know, some you'll not know. It will also depend whether you are available or you are not available. MR JOUBERT And insofar these units had acted under your command or had received any command from you personally, do you accept responsibility? MR MASHOALA Definitely I do. MR JOUBERT Now you've had the opportunity to peruse the documentation made available to us including this decision enclosed from page 45 onwards where reference is made to inter alia a Juicy Lucy bomb blast, the attack on the policemen, various incidences that happened, for example a handgrenade attack during which a small child, baby of 14 months had been killed and more specifically, let's say also the attack at Juicy Lucy which was on the pavement. Would that have been in accordance with your instructions? MR MASHOALA No, definitely that wouldn't be in accordance in terms of the police of the ANC like I've earlier on, you know, elaborated. As to what could have happened I don't know. I regret the fact that they had to attack a target whereby a baby was killed as well as just putting a limpet mine in a busy street in Pretoria without necessarily directing it to policemen or the members of the former SADF. MR JOUBERT Yes, so an operative on the ground would have a bit of discretion and if they had acted outside your orders you would have had no control over that prior to the action, is that correct? MR MASHOALA Prior to the action we wouldn't have any control over that. MR JOUBERT Where operatives had acted and gone beyond their instructions, was there any disciplinary action taken? MR MASHOALA Definitely, we'll actually call the members of the unit in Botswana and actually explain to them that that is not the policy principles of the African National Congress in terms of actually attacking innocent civilians or people who have got nothing to do in terms of, you know, the apartheid system because the apartheid system, we never regarded it as every White South Africa. It's for that reason specifically we gave them instructions that all those who were aiding the apartheid system they must be targeted. MR JOUBERT Yes. MR MASHOALA Like for an example we wouldn't agree in terms of an attack in Wimpy unless if an explanation would be given as to why that particular target had to be attacked. MR JOUBERT For example it was frequented by Defence Force members. MR MASHOALA If it was frequented definitely by high-ranking Defence Force members, definitely it was a legitimate target even though there may be certain individuals who would - innocent individuals would get hurt. It's unfortunate, we regret but it would be legitimate. MR JOUBERT Yes, you were aware that innocent civilians may be injured during certain actions but the instruction was that they had to prevent this as far as possible? MR MASHOALA As far as possible and why it is not possible, we regret that such things had to happen. MR JOUBERT Then on page 3 of your application and in paragraph 3(iii) under the names and addresses of victims there's written "In Mafikeng one of our members, Stoffel, attacked police in Mafikeng manning a roadblock and four policemen were killed in 1988." Do you state this as a fact or is this something that you got to know of or is it just hearsay? MR MASHOALA I was not physically there and I must submit that that is hearsay. What has actually happened, maybe to elaborate on that, is that Stoffel and Tabando actually sent inside the country. The main object of them going inside the country was to go and reconnoitre a military base for former Bophuthatswana which was then, according to our plans, the intention was to attack it with explosives. So the first day the two members actually went there, then I was made to understand that the second day they couldn't because there were roadblocks in Mafikeng. So the person who was assisting them, or who harboured them, indicated to them that it won't be advisable for them to be moving around, they should stay put. MR JOUBERT Yes, if I could stop you there? This is all information that you received, this isn't a fact that you know first hand? MR MASHOALA No, not first hand. As I'm saying it's just hearsay. MR JOUBERT Just hearsay? MR MASHOALA Yes. MR JOUBERT Okay. On the same page, on the bottom of the page where you state your political objective sought to be achieved in any actions that you may have taken, you say there "It's to bring about a new dispensation in the R.S.A." MR MASHOALA So that each and every, you know, citizen, irrespective of their race, religion, gender and colour, could have an opportunity to participate as equals in the administration of our country and eradication of apartheid system. That was our main objective. MR JOUBERT And this is in accordance with the main objective of the African National Congress, is that correct? MR MASHOALA That is correct. MR JOUBERT Now insofar as you haven't elaborated in detail regarding political objectives etc, pertaining to the ANC, you are aware that there were detailed submissions made to the Commission on various occasions and do you wish that to be incorporated as part of your application? MR MASHOALA That is correct. MR JOUBERT On page 4, more or less the middle of the page is your reference to Mamelodi and 1987 to which you earlier testified, it should actually read Atteridgeville? MR MASHOALA That is correct. MR JOUBERT And you would request that that amendment be made so it reads Atteridgeville? MR MASHOALA That is correct. MR JOUBERT Am I correct in stating that any order that you gave out to your insubordinates were orders that you obtained again from your superior officers? MR MASHOALA That is correct. From Lusaka. MR JOUBERT From Lusaka? MR MASHOALA Lusaka also it was the same, they wouldn't be telling us that we've got to attack this or that or that other target except in the case of special operations, were also being given that latitude to exercise our mind in terms of advising, that is in terms of the instructions. From there they will then be interpreted and then be given also to soldiers who would be given a latitude to exercise their minds. MR JOUBERT Yes, were any of the actions that you partook in in giving these instructions did you receive any personal gain or financial benefit for that? MR MASHOALA We were volunteers, we were not being paid. We only received stipend amounting to R200 for basically buying food which was also insufficient but we understood because we were in the struggle. MR JOUBERT Yes but all your actions were taken in promotion of the armed struggle? MR MASHOALA That is correct. MR JOUBERT Do you otherwise confirm the content of your application as contained with the amendments as true and correct? MR MASHOALA I confirm. MR JOUBERT Then with reference to the decision contained from page 45 onwards. We have noted that it is alleged that the members would or the cadres would report to Botswana each and every time prior to acting against a target. Would that be completely correct? MR MASHOALA I think that is incorrect. Like I have earlier indicated that would actually jeopardise the members' security. We'd rather prefer if members are inside the country, that they can have maybe couriers to contact us. So a situation whereby a member has got for each and every operation prior to the execution to actually inform us to get an approval, that was not our modus operandi purely for security reasons because the other thing is, it wouldn't be safe for those members, as well as for us. Say for an example if I can be kidnapped because the South African Police Services as well as the Special Forces as well as SADF, they did conduct cross-border operations, meaning that if I know that a certain target is going to be attacked from the security point of view by method that I know, that I would actually jeopardise the operation. So it wouldn't, from the security point of view, be advisable that prior to them executing an operation they come and tell us. It's none of our business, it was their own business. MR JOUBERT Thank you. Now the incidences referred to in that decision, can you recall whether any of those were ever directly reported to you or can you not specifically recall? MR MASHOALA They were reported after, after I mean the operations were carried out. All what we did, we gave them like I earlier on indicated a broad overview of the situation in terms of which targets specifically must be attacked and then we supply them with a sketch. How they distribute that material amongst other sub-units, it was their own business. All what we wanted to see is the utilisation of that material of which they did then in the first sketch. MR JOUBERT And then just to return to a certain issue on page 53 of the decision - page 9 of the decision, it's page 53 of the paginated papers near the end of the second paragraph, it's indicated that "Ramadite was told to target SADF members but he was not told where precisely to place the limpet mine. This was a general order and he was warned to avoid to hitting civilians." MR MASHOALA That is correct. MR JOUBERT Would that have been the gist of all your orders given to your insubordinates? MR MASHOALA That is correct. And that the other thing which I must also stress is these orders would be given to Thoka and Mensti whilst Mensti was still living. How they disseminate that information amongst the members of the unit, that was their own business. All what we knew is that there is Mtetindaba, Kwelekwele, Dabulamansi. As to the names and the proper names of those names we never knew. ...(indistinct Mamelodi, it was none of our business. ADV SANDI Sorry, just for clarity on their names. Mainstay, would that be? MR MASHOALA Ugeli Mapoenya. MR JOUBERT Is there anything else that you would like to add, that you would like to say to any victims, although there are no victims present today? Any statement you would like to make in this regard? MR MASHOALA The only thing I would like to say is that I regret that during the process of executing our revolutionary duty that we had, some innocent civilians caught in the crossfire. Unfortunately, in any war situation, is does happen. But I must say to the families of the - the bereaved families, that we feel saddened that such an unfortunate situation happened and we don't wish that such a situation should repeat itself in our country. MR JOUBERT Thank you Honourable Chairperson. At that stage I have no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR JOUBERT CHAIRPERSON Thank you Mr Joubert. Mr Mapoma, any questions? CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MAPOMA Just a few Chairperson. Mr Mashoala, you are saying this unit would report to "us", that's how you put it. Whom do you refer to when you say you? MR MASHOALA To us I mean myself, the late Naledi ...(indistinct), that is Patrick Mavundla. There was Petwala and there was also Cheogara. MR MAPOMA So am I correct when I'm saying that you were a command structure of MK? MR MASHOALA We were a command structure and then a command structure was not consisting only of two people. It was myself - it was Naledi, it was myself, it was Petwala and then it was Cheogara at a later stage. But you see the way we were operating, not each and everybody will be handling units expect in a situation whereby another member is late or is not in the region. So if you are handling the units like Mabida Unit you will specifically be handling those units. Not any other members of the structure. The other members of the structure they had contacts or people with whom they were having dealings with. MR MAPOMA Now the Mabida unit, is it the one which was led by Thoka? MR MASHOALA Firstly it was led by Udilila Maponya and after the incident of Sterland we then appointed Thoka as the commander and then we reinforced him with Liverpool as the second in command and then with Webster as the person responsible for security after having realised that they were multiplying themselves. MR MAPOMA Then the Tembisa unit, do you know of any names of the operatives in the Tembisa unit? MR MASHOALA The Tembisa unit, the commander it was Mangnani, I've forgotten his surname and then the second in command it was Lawrence Mahlangu and then there was also Thabiso Gadebe. MR MAPOMA Then to your knowledge, what acts are they that they applied for amnesty for? MR MASHOALA They applied for amnesty for having planted a mine at the municipal offices as well as possession of illegal firearms and then as well as the ambush which was laid for Municipal Police. MR MAPOMA Thank you Chairperson, I have no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MAPOMA CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Panel? ADV BOSMAN Thank you Chairperson. Mr Mashoala, I'm afraid I am rather confused in regard to the application form. If you can just assist us there? It seems to have been filled out by two different people. Did you fill in the original form? If you look at the handwriting in paragraphs 1, 2, 3 and 4, it seems to differ from the rest, from 5 onwards. Did you fill out where your name appears and the address? MR MASHOALA Definitely I did. ADV BOSMAN And the rest also? Is it just that your handwriting changed? I don't understand. MR MASHOALA Which rested - all depends, you know, whether I was comfortable but this is my handwriting. ADV BOSMAN Everything in the form is written by you? MR MASHOALA Everything is written by me. ADV BOSMAN Okay and then how did it come about that you make these additions? Exactly when did you make them? Were you asked for further particulars? MR MASHOALA Definitely. I was contacted. You see firstly, we applied for amnesty, that is the blanket amnesty. ADV BOSMAN General blanket, yes. MR MASHOALA Then later on it was said that no, we've got to apply as individuals. That's when I was contacted by the TRC. ADV BOSMAN To give further particulars? MR MASHOALA To give further particulars and ...(intervention) ADV BOSMAN So all this information marked with an asterisk you regard as further particulars? MR MASHOALA That is correct. ADV BOSMAN Okay and let me just see if there's anything else? And was that done during the course of this year? MR MASHOALA I should think last year. ADV BOSMAN Last year? MR MASHOALA I should think last year, not during the course of this year. ADV BOSMAN And you don't know what happened to your original application? MR MASHOALA No I don't know. ADV BOSMAN Okay. MR MASHOALA But I'm saying the original application, it went to Pretoria but then I later on received a letter to the effect that that is insufficient and I must also indicate, as an individual, exactly what am I applying for. ADV BOSMAN Alright and do I understand it correctly now that insofar as all these incidents are concerned, you learnt of it happening in each instance only afterwards? MR MASHOALA Only afterwards. ADV BOSMAN Okay, so you were in - well, it's perhaps for your lawyer to argue, but you were an accessory after the fact, you never participated prior to any of these incidents? Except for general commands ...(intervention) MR MASHOALA For general orders but I never participated physically except for them to inform us such and such an operation has been carried out. Like I'm saying we'd have a communication that is prepared for them to indicate. If it's for policemen it would be indicated but the message they are going to send to that post box, it would be reading something but then it's for us to decipher that message. ADV BOSMAN Yes. MR MASHOALA So whether they have thrown a handgrenade somewhere else we'll learn thereafter that a handgrenade has been thrown. ADV BOSMAN Alright. Now I understand, thank you. ADV SANDI Just one question from me. Did it ever happen that anyone of the group of Thoka and company got recalled for committing an irregularity? MR MASHOALA No, the only time they came back to Botswana is not because they committed any irregularities. They only came after the incident of Sterland where the commander was killed. Now we wanted to get an explanation from Thoka as to what transpired, what happened and then two, we actually proposed to Thoka that it will be advising for all the units under Mabida to withdraw to Botswana so that we can observe the situation being at a ...(indistinct) but they hold us out and insisted that the situation is still okay, they can actually go back. Then it's for that reason then we called in Liverpool and Webster to reinforce then send them inside the country only to find that before they can exhaust the second sketch, they were then arrested. So our suspicions were confirmed when the whole structure got rounded up. ADV SANDI Just one last question. In that group of Thoka, Thoka was the only person you were in contact with? MR MASHOALA Initially we were in contact with Thoka and Udilila Maponya. Then when Maponya passed away externally trained members were Liverpool as well as Webster whom then were requested from Lusaka and then we bought Thoka also together to be acquainted with these other new members and then we brief them together as they were going to work together then we infiltrated again inside the country. ADV SANDI Thank you. Thank you Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Any re-examination Mr Joubert? MR JOUBERT It's hard to single aspects so ...(intervention) MR MAPOMA Excuse me Chairperson? CHAIRPERSON Yes? MR MAPOMA Before re-examination? I'm sorry I didn't raise this before with the Committee, I have got this gentleman here, he says that his combat name was Stoffel and he's and implicated person so to speak now and he wants me to put it to the applicant - in fact in page 3 of this bundle, Chairperson, the Mafikeng incident where police were killed, the applicant says that Stoffel, that is himself, was involved in this operation. Now his name is Mr Edward Magisi Sesane. CHAIRPERSON Is he indeed - is he the one that's referred to here or do we have to ascertain that first from the applicant? MR MAPOMA Perhaps Chairperson. MR JOUBERT Honourable Chairperson yes, no it's exactly the same person there's no ...(indistinct) MR MAPOMA Now he asks my assistance to clarify this with the applicant. CHAIRPERSON Yes, do you want go ahead? CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MAPOMA Yes Chairperson. Mr Mashoala, Stoffel is here. He says he was not involved in that operation where police were killed. Do you know that he was involved at all? MR MASHOALA Like I've indicated there, Mr Mapoma, that this was hearsay. What has happened is, Stoffel was sent together with Thabang in Mafikeng, specifically to go and reconnoitre military base of the former Bop. The report we received from Thabang, who was the commander, because Stoffel was assisting him in terms of his knowledge of the area, that is Mafikeng and of those areas. For that reason he said he should accompany him. We had a sister who was assisting us based in Mafikeng as well as Botswana. The reconnaissance had to be cancelled after the incident. Now we wanted to know as to what happened. They then said the second day when they were supposed to go for a reconnaissance, roadblocks were manned and that Thabang and Stoffel were advised not to move around but from Thabang he then alleged that whilst they were still sitting, Stoffel then took his AK-47 and said "I'm not going to sell you out" ...(intervention) MR MAPOMA No, sorry, before - I just want to interrupt, I'm sorry for that. You see, what he says and despite your narration, what he says is that in fact he was not involved in this incident. Are you able, for you personally to say he was? MR MASHOALA No, I'm not able. What I'm saying what I got it was just a hearsay. MR MAPOMA Yes. MR MASHOALA So if he's saying he was not involved then I accept that. ADV SANDI Sorry, just one bit of detail here? I seem to recall a matter where applicants applied for amnesty for an incident in the nature of the description you have given. Is that the incident where they robbed a vehicle before carrying out this attack on the Police? MR MASHOALA Not at all, not at all. This was a separate incident. What was alleged was that one of my members, for them to have come back to Botswana and then cancelling, that mission of reconnoitring that specific military base, it was because of this incident because now they had to be taken out of the country to Botswana in a hurry. ADV SANDI But you know you say you're talking hearsay, you don't have personal knowledge of all this, this is what you are told? MR MASHOALA This is what I was told definitely I agree. MR MAPOMA Chairperson, that is all relating to the actual implication. CHAIRPERSON Just this one allegation in the application? MR MAPOMA Yes Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON That was of concern to the gentleman? MR MAPOMA Yes Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Alright, good. Re-examination Mr Joubert? NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MAPOMA RE-EXAMINATION BY MR JOUBERT Thank you Honourable Chairperson. Mr Mashoala, I just want to confirm one thing. The detail contained in the charge sheet and the decision enclosed in this documentation. This detail, when did this only come to your attention? MR MASHOALA I believe only yesterday. MR JOUBERT When the documents were made available to you, is that correct? MR MASHOALA Yes. MR JOUBERT You now apply for amnesty for conspiracy to murder, conspiracy to commit murder, any malicious damage to property, all contraventions under the Firearms and Ammunition Act and the Explosives Act, defeating the ends of justice insofar that no information was ever made available pertaining to crimes that may have been committed, any offence relating to the illegal crossing of the border of the R.S.A. and Botswana and then any other offence and or delict covered by the evidence and the facts that may support a confident verdict, is that correct? MR MASHOALA That is correct. MR JOUBERT I have no further questions, thank you Honourable Chairperson. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR JOUBERT CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Mr Mashoala, thank you, you're excused. WITNESS EXCUSED CHAIRPERSON Is there any other evidence? MR JOUBERT No, no other evidence. CHAIRPERSON Is that the case for the applicant? MR JOUBERT That's the case for the applicant, thank you. CHAIRPERSON Mr Mapoma is there any other evidence? MR MAPOMA There's no other evidence Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Mr Joubert, have you got any submissions on the merits of this application? MR JOUBERT IN ARGUMENT May it please you Honourable Chairperson and Members of the Committee. I would submit that the applicant has complied with the requirements of the Act and that pertaining to a political objective as such it is my respectful submission that it is clear from the manner in which he acted, the post which he occupied and being a member of MK that the political objective issue has been addressed sufficiently. I will not labour the record any further with that specific issue. As pertaining to full disclosure, I would submit, with respect, that the applicant has made a full disclosure within his - or as far as he is capable, he is not capable of giving specific detail pertaining to incidents that occurred as he had not been involved in them personally but he has made a full disclosure as to his own involvement or insofar as he may have had any involvement in giving any orders to any actions that were taken. I would submit that the applicant has disclosed all the relevant facts at his disposal and that in this regard the Committee should find that he has made a full disclosure. It is furthermore my respectful submission that pertaining to proportionality etc, the orders given by the applicant in his post as chief of staff who were to attack legitimate targets, military installations, police stations, etc, and in this regard these orders would suffice for the proportionality test as to what transpired thereafter. Everything taken into account and unless you want to hear me on a specific issue, I feel that, with the greatest respect, the applicant has come to the fore, he has given his full disclosure, he has given his full cooperation. Unfortunately for the applicant, he was not given the opportunity to be heard during the other applications and may have served to refreshen his memory in certain regards and would have been able to give more detail. But given the circumstances, I would submit that he has complied with all the requirements and that amnesty should be granted to him for the issues which I indicated during his evidence. ADV SANDI Thank you Mr Joubert. One of the offences in respect of which Thoka and company were granted amnesty is escape from lawful custody and if I recall the evidence was to the effect that they had been assisted by their commanders from outside the country. Maybe I should have put the question to the applicant. Was he in any way involved in facilitating that escape? MR JOUBERT No, as far as my instructions are, Adv Sandi, he was not involved in that, in the escape as such and the assistance there. ADV SANDI Thank you. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Mr Mapoma, any submissions? MR MAPOMA I've no submissions, Chairperson, thank you. CHAIRPERSON Thank you Mr Mapoma. Yes, that concludes the formal proceedings in this matter. The panel will consider the application and will take time to formulate a decision which we will endeavour to do as soon as circumstances permit in which event we will then notify all of the parties with an interest in the matter once that decision is available. But for the moment the decision in the matter is reserved. Mr Joubert, we thank you for your assistance in this matter and if you wish to be excused we will gladly do so. MR JOUBERT Thank you very much, Honourable Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Mr Mapoma, shall we take the adjournment at this stage? MR MAPOMA Indeed Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON And then we've got the other matter ready for this afternoon? MR MAPOMA Yes Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON We'll adjourn and reconvene as soon after 2 o'clock as it's convenient. COMMITTEE ADJOURNS