amntrans AMNESTY HEARINGS 2000-11-28 JOHANNESBURG 2 https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=54576&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/2000/201128jb.htm CHAIRPERSON: Good morning. Today we are proceeding with the application of Mr Erasmus. We adjourned our proceedings yesterday at a time when Mr Nyawuza was required to lead the evidence of a victim in relation to this incident. We shall now proceed to afford Mr Nyawuza an opportunity to lead evidence of the victim. MR NYAWUZA As it pleases the Committee. I'd wish to call upon Mrs Beauty Tsoeunyane. She is one of the victims. CHAIRPERSON Won't you spell the surname for us, Mr Nyawuza? MR NYAWUZA The surname is T-S-O-E-U-N-Y-A-N-E. JUDGE DE JAGER Could you perhaps indicate on which channel would be the English? MS PATEL Two. CHAIRPERSON What language will Ms Tsoeunyane be giving evidence in? MR NYAWUZA She will be testifying in Xhosa, Chairperson. BEAUTY TSOEUNYANE (sworn states) EXAMINATION BY MR NYAWUZA Thank you Madame Chair. Ma'am can you please tell us your full names again? MS TSOEUNYANE I am Beauty Tsoeunyane. MR NYAWUZA And what is your profession? MS TSOEUNYANE I'm a nurse. MR NYAWUZA What are your qualifications, ma'am? MS TSOEUNYANE General nursing, midwifery and family planning. MR NYAWUZA Is it correct that during 1989 you were employed at Alexandra Clinic? MS TSOEUNYANE That is correct. MR NYAWUZA Where were you staying at the time? MS TSOEUNYANE At the nurses home. MR NYAWUZA And where's the nurses home, is it within the Alexandra Clinic here? MS TSOEUNYANE Yes that is correct. MR NYAWUZA Ma'am, a certain incident occurred in 1989 relating in Alexandra. Where were you at the time? MS TSOEUNYANE I was at the clinic. MR NYAWUZA What is it that happened? MS TSOEUNYANE I was woken up by some noise, somebody was screaming and shouting. They said that something was burning. I woke up, I tried to switch on the light to no avail and I went down the passage and there was some smoke and the person - or should I say I peeped through the window and I could see something was burning. MR NYAWUZA And having peeped through the window and seeing that it's burning, what was the next step that you took? MS TSOEUNYANE I shouted something to the effect that people should be woken up because I couldn't run down the passage. MR NYAWUZA And what happened? MS TSOEUNYANE The security guard took a garden chair outside and tried to break the door open but the chair broke and they broke the burglar proofs and I tried to free myself and I was getting injured at the same time. MR NYAWUZA Where were you injured ma'am? MS TSOEUNYANE I injured my legs and my hands and below my feet. MR NYAWUZA Did you ultimately manage to get help? MS TSOEUNYANE Yes. MR NYAWUZA You ultimately got out of the building? MS TSOEUNYANE Yes. MR NYAWUZA And the staff that you lost ma'am, did you lose anything due to the burning of the nurses home? MS TSOEUNYANE Yes. MR NYAWUZA What is it that you lost? MS TSOEUNYANE Everything. My clothing and bedding and my dishes and pots. MR NYAWUZA If you were to put a value to your assets that you lost that night, what amount would you put on that? MS TSOEUNYANE More or less R5000. Some of these items had just been newly purchased. MR NYAWUZA Ma'am, we now come to the kind of work that you did. What community did you serve at this clinic? MS TSOEUNYANE The Alexandra community and neighbouring areas like Bramley and Sandton. People used to come to our clinic when injured or for child birth but mainly we were serving the Alexandra community. MR NYAWUZA Ma'am your political affiliation as regards yourself, did you belong to any political organisation at the time? MS TSOEUNYANE No, I am apolitical and I did not have political organisation even then. MR NYAWUZA How many of you nurses were resident at the nurses home at the time? MS TSOEUNYANE There were eleven of us even though some of them had gone out, they were not around when the incident happened but we were all in all eleven. MR NYAWUZA Ma'am, when this incident occurred, the burning of the nurses home, who did you think was involved in the burning of the nurses home and why? MS TSOEUNYANE I would be telling you a lie. I thought Tim was the one involved because after it was built I knew. We thought he is the one who wanted to take occupation because he was all along telling us to leave the place. MR NYAWUZA Did you take it up with Tim at some stage? MS TSOEUNYANE Not at all but I informed him jokingly when he took out the bottles, I told him "you should tell us if you want us to leave instead of burning down the building." MR NYAWUZA When was he taking out the bottles, was it during surgery, ma'am? MS TSOEUNYANE That was after everybody had vacated the building and others were attended to by the doctor on call and Tim was then called. MR NYAWUZA How many of you were injured, if I were to ask? If maybe you know you can respond to that. If you don't know you can always say you don't remember. MS TSOEUNYANE One person that I still remember very well is myself and Violet Ndeleka who also got out later and she inhaled some smoke and had a problem. There could have been three of us who got injured to the point of being attended to at casualty. MR NYAWUZA Did you get any word, ma'am, as to who might have been involved in this attack? Maybe a day thereafter or four days thereafter? Did you get any word as to who might have been involved here? MS TSOEUNYANE No, we did not pursue the matter because it was thought that it could have been an electricity fault. MR NYAWUZA Ma'am, at Alexandra Clinic do you - at some stage, I believe, the workers around Alexandra and people of different affiliation were at loggerheads. There's testimony to that effect. Did you, at any stage, ma'am turn anybody turn anybody back of any political affiliation? MS TSOEUNYANE No, I cannot recall. At the time I was working at casualty. At the time we used to look at the admission cards and admit people following that. Nobody would be turned away. MR NYAWUZA If somebody, ma'am, were to come to this hearing and say to this hearing you gave treatment to ANC people and you gave sanctuary to them, would that person be correct in so saying that? MS TSOEUNYANE That would be a mistake. MR NYAWUZA At the nurses home were there any, besides the nurses home were nurses were residents, was there any residence where people were resident? MS TSOEUNYANE The doctors' quarters, yes we had the doctors' quarters. They were students and a sessional doctor and that was a staff hostel accommodating the students and the sessional doctor. MR NYAWUZA And that was the only residence besides yours? MS TSOEUNYANE There was another one which used to be a chapel. It's now a dentist consulting room, Dr Barker and his wife used to occupy that building. MR NYAWUZA Ma'am, during that time did you know that Dr Tim Wilson was a son-in-law to Braam Fischer? MS TSOEUNYANE No, I just knew him as Dr Tim. I don't even know his wife. MR NYAWUZA When was this brought to your knowledge or your attention? MS TSOEUNYANE You mean that his is Braam Fischer's son-in-law? I only read about this in the letter that was communicated to us. MR NYAWUZA Do you know Braam Fischer? MS TSOEUNYANE Not at all. MR NYAWUZA Thank you Chairperson, that will be the evidence in chief of Mrs Beauty Tsoeunyane. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR NYAWUZA CHAIRPERSON Mr van Zyl, do you have any questions to put to Mrs Tsoeunyane? MR VAN ZYL A few, Madame Chair, if I may? CHAIRPERSON Yes you may. CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR VAN ZYL Thank you. The nurses quarters at that time, today it is the administration block, I see. Is that correct? MS TSOEUNYANE That is correct. It used to be, that is after it was renovated. MR VAN ZYL Good. At the time before the fire you said eleven nurses stayed in the nurses home. MS TSOEUNYANE Yes. MR VAN ZYL How many nurses could be accommodated in the nurses home? MS TSOEUNYANE Ten of them but two of them sharing. MR VAN ZYL Two of them sharing. So there was only room for ten people yet two shared a room? MS TSOEUNYANE Yes. MR VAN ZYL So are you telling this Commission that there were only ten rooms in that building at the time? Was there only ten rooms in the building? MS TSOEUNYANE Yes. MR VAN ZYL Ablution facilities? MS TSOEUNYANE I beg your pardon? MR VAN ZYL Bathrooms, toilets? MS TSOEUNYANE Yes there were toilets and bathroom as well as a pantry as well as a kitchen. MR VAN ZYL And a kitchen, so those rooms are in addition to the ten bedrooms then? MS TSOEUNYANE Yes. The ten rooms were used as bedrooms. MR VAN ZYL Were there any other rooms in the nurses home that was used for any other purpose perhaps? MS TSOEUNYANE No, except for the sitting room, the kitchen and the pantry. MR VAN ZYL So apart from the nurses nobody used that block at all? MS TSOEUNYANE Yes. MR VAN ZYL Is that correct? Thank you. When you worked at casualty, did you encounter victims with gunshot wounds coming to casualty? MS TSOEUNYANE Yes. MR VAN ZYL Do you know whether that was reported to the Police or not? MS TSOEUNYANE No, I don't know anything about that, we were not concerned about that, we were just concerned about the injured people because when a person has been shot, such person goes to hospital. MR VAN ZYL Thank you Madame Chair, no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VAN ZYL CHAIRPERSON Ms Pillay, do you have any questions to put to Ms Tsoeunyane? MS PILLAY No questions, Madame Chair. CHAIRPERSON Ms Patel? CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS PATEL Thank you Honourable Chairperson. Ma'am, can you please tell us for - the nurses block, I'm sorry, I missed the initial part of your testimony. For how long was the nurses block used as a sleeping quarters? MS TSOEUNYANE I arrived here in 1982 up to the point when the nurses home was burnt down in 1989. MS PATEL Okay and just generally, access to that area, is it quite difficult to get to the section where you slept from the street or is it easily accessible? MS TSOEUNYANE There were two gates. One gate came from the outside section and it would go through casualty. From the first street, Wynberg, you'd go through the dentist and the doctors' quarters. You'd go past the chapel and nurses home. MS PATEL Can I just ask, do you recall whether you noticed any - well outside of your sort of normal patients that would come, whether in the previous few weeks before the incident you had noticed any strange people around who might have been looking at the buildings at all? MS TSOEUNYANE Not at all. MS PATEL Would it have been common knowledge though, given that you were there for quite some time that that specific building was used as a sleeping quarter? MS TSOEUNYANE I have no idea. MS PATEL Alright, thank you Honourable Chairperson. MS TSOEUNYANE About an outsider, I have no idea at all. MS PATEL Alright. Thank you Honourable Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Thank you Ms Patel. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS PATEL MR VAN ZYL Madame Chair, may I ask a further question, something that just my learned friend there asked, that wants me to ask a further question? CHAIRPERSON Ms Patel? MR VAN ZYL Yes. CHAIRPERSON Yes you may. CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR VAN ZYL Thank you. You said in your testimony that Tim, I presume that's Dr Wilson, straight after the fire or immediately after the fire you said to him why doesn't he rather ask you to leave. Were there plans to move out of the nurses homes at the time ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON Mr van Zyl, you don't seem to have put her evidence correctly. That's not what she said and I think what you are putting to her is not as a result of questions that came from Ms Patel. MR VAN ZYL Then I'll leave it at that. CHAIRPERSON I will allow you but I think your motivation was incorrect, that the question was as a result of questions emanating from Ms Patel's cross-examination of Ms Tsoeunyane. I will allow you to put questions to Ms Tsoeunyane because you might not have been in a position to formulate another time when you got an opportunity to do so. MR VAN ZYL As it pleases. CHAIRPERSON But it is not as a result of Ms Patel's questioning. MR VAN ZYL If you say so, Madame Chair, I'll accept it as such. I deduced from your evidence that there were plans afoot to change the nurses home to some other facility. Is that so or not? MS TSOEUNYANE After it was burnt down, when it was renovated it was converted into an admin block. MR VAN ZYL But you did say that after the fire, you said to Dr Tim, you thought that Dr Tim caused the fire, if I understand it correctly and then you said to him that why didn't he rather ask you to leave the building instead of putting a fire to it. Is that what your testimony was earlier? MS TSOEUNYANE I am the one who asked him, jokingly. Not everybody asked him. I asked him why, why don't they tell us to leave if they want us to leave instead of burning. I did not say that he burnt down the building. MR VAN ZYL No, I accept that. What I do ask, were there plans afoot to change the facility to, say, the administration block. MS TSOEUNYANE I don't have that knowledge because we were given accommodation after the place was burnt and it was reconstructed and used as an admin block. As to what plans were afoot I had no idea. MR VAN ZYL Thank you Madame Chair, I have no further questions. CHAIRPERSON Judge de Jager, do you have any questions to put to Ms Tsoeunyane? JUDGE DE JAGER No questions. NO QUESTIONS BY JUDGE DE JAGER CHAIRPERSON Ms Sigodi? MS SIGODI No questions. NO QUESTIONS BY MS SIGODI CHAIRPERSON Any re-examination Mr Nyawuza? MR NYAWUZA No re-examination Madame Chair, that would be the evidence of Mrs Beauty Tsoeunyane. CHAIRPERSON Ms Tsoeunyane, you are excused as a witness. You may step down. WITNESS EXCUSED MR NYAWUZA Madame Chair, we wish to call the last witness, Mrs Violet Ramhitshana. She'll be testifying in Setswana. CHAIRPERSON Who? MR NYAWUZA Violet Ramhitshana, R-A-M-H-I-T-S-H-A-N-A. VIOLET RAMHITSHANA (sworn states) EXAMINATION BY MR NYAWUZA Thank you Madame Chair. Ma'am, can you please repeat your full names again? MS RAMHITSHANA Violet Malebugeng Ramhitshana. MR NYAWUZA And what is your profession? MS RAMHITSHANA I am a nurse, Chairperson. MR NYAWUZA Your qualifications? MS RAMHITSHANA General, medical and surgical nursing, midwifery, family planning including family health and ...(indistinct). MR NYAWUZA When did you start to be a nurse? MS RAMHITSHANA I started in 19... - I don't recall well, but it was somewhere in the '50s, 1950's. MR NYAWUZA Is it correct that at some stage you were employed at Alexandra Clinic? MS RAMHITSHANA That is correct, Chairperson. MR NYAWUZA When were you employed at Alexandra Clinic? MS RAMHITSHANA I worked there earlier when I was transferred from General to Alexandra then I went back to Alexandra in 1979. I worked there eighteen years until my retirement in 1996. MR NYAWUZA Ma'am, where were you resident during your employment at Alexandra Clinic? MS RAMHITSHANA We were staying at the nurses home. MR NYAWUZA And for how long had you been resident there? MS RAMHITSHANA The same period I mentioned, that is eighteen years. MR NYAWUZA And where was your home where you came from? MS RAMHITSHANA From Soweto in Klipspruit, we went to Soweto just for work convenience. MR NYAWUZA Ma'am, a certain incident occurred in 1989. Can you shed light on what happened in 1989 and how you were affected? MS RAMHITSHANA In 1989, I think it's on the 22nd August if I am not making a mistake, or somewhere in July or August, we went to sleep as usual and it was at night. In the middle of the night whilst we were sleeping or towards dawn, I woke up. Whilst I was relaxing I heard something like a cricket in the passage. I don't know if it was thrown through the window or how but it was near. Then I started listening and I heard one of my colleagues say there's fire. After some time I saw a smoke through the passage. Then I said if I can go through that passage towards the corners of the passage and the back side of the kitchen, I won't be able to, so let me go back to my room and sleep so that I would just stand still, not be confused so that the person who will offer us help because I see that there is fire. When I looked through the window I saw a fire coming from - the building was L-shaped, there was a kitchen at the back door. Then at the back there was a washing line and a relaxing lawn. The next block was the student block and the doctors' residence who were coming for the clinical sessions. Then on my left hand side where there was a maternity ward but there was a wall. When I saw women arriving out of the maternity ward, screaming, saying get out, get out of the house and they were crying. I sat down because I saw that we were not able to go out because whoever would come to help you would not be able to locate you to save you so I looked at those women. At the same time the smoke was coming inside and I fainted. A certain person broke the window and then told me to go through the window. So I was not able to climb so I fainted. At the time I had a cut from a glass and then I was bleeding at that time. After some time I regained consciousness. I heard nurses screaming outside, then even the one next door, that is Deleka, Mrs Nonde, who was calling me by name. Then they said they will not be leaving me outside. Others were outside, that is Sister Nqecka was out, Sister Beauty was outside and others were able to go out. But all of them were screaming from outside asking for help. So I peeped through the window and told them not to scream but to call Sandton Fire to come and help because if you just scream you make me awake, don't scream you'll be able to get help but they couldn't believe it because they were so confused. MR NYAWUZA Did you ultimately manage to go out ma'am? MS RAMHITSHANA After some time the security guard came to the window and broke the window with a cutting device to break the burglar proofing and they broke the wall so that I'll be able to get outside. Then the other one opened the window where it was broken. Then from there they lifted me up. Then they helped me to climb the chair. Then from there I was pulled outside. Then I sat on the lawn and I leant against the tree and they were able to help me ...(indistinct). After that I went round. I sat on the veranda relaxing and then the ambulance came, driven by Mr Mautu, telling me that he has come to fetch me to the hospital. Whilst Mr Amos was talking to me I became confused. Then I started to be angry. Whilst Amos was telling me to go to the hospital, I went straight to casualty, running. He couldn't keep pace because I saw that I was not running with my full senses. He grabbed my hand on the other side of casualty towards the gate, then brought me back to the casualty. On the bed I saw Dr Wilson coming. He was called and he came immediately. Dr Getz was on call. He attended to us and reported to Dr Wilson. CHAIRPERSON May I interrupt Ms Ramhitshana? Mr Nyawuza, I think it is your noble duty to lead Ms Ramhitshana when she gives evidence in chief so that only relevant facts are placed before us. You know your duty as a legal representative. If you do not take charge of her testimony in chief, we are going to be saddled with evidence which is not material for purposes of deciding issues which have been raised by Mr Erasmus in his amnesty application. So please, please take charge. I don't want to interfere with her testimony but I'm just compelled to do so because I think the evidence which is being given is not material. MR NYAWUZA Thank you Madame Chair. Ma'am you were injured and is it correct that you went to hospital? MS RAMHITSHANA I didn't go to the hospital, I was treated at the clinic. After some days they sought consultation to General Hospital, that is Johannesburg Hospital. MR NYAWUZA Ma'am, did you perhaps know at the time who was involved in this thing? INTERPRETER Could you please repeat your question? MR NYAWUZA Did you perhaps that somebody - did you know the person that was involved in the burning down of the nurses home? MS RAMHITSHANA: I did not see the person but after the incident when Dr Wilson came to me, I spoke to him and said: "Dr Wilson, what happened? Is there somebody responsible or is there an accident?" Then Dr Wilson said there must have been an electrical fault but I said I suspect that somebody is responsible for the fire because when the security came to see me in the casualty room then he said he was running after somebody who ran through a certain gate. MR NYAWUZA Ma'am, did the security tell you how this person looked like? MS RAMHITSHANA The security said whilst he was running after that person he was able to observe that he's a White person. MR NYAWUZA Ma'am at the clinic and with the time that you spent at the clinic did you treat people of Alexandra and those outside or did you maybe concentrate on people that were from the local community? MS RAMHITSHANA People from the suburbs and Alexandra Township but mainly the population which we were responsible for was the Alexandra community, the neighbouring suburbs and even in casualty we were taking care of people who were injured from Alexandra Township and other surrounding areas. CHAIRPERSON Ms Ramhitshana, were you during your service with the Alexandra Clinic from 1979 until 1989 when this incident happened ever instructed by Mr Wilson or by any of the senior doctors in Alexandra Clinic that you must treat ANC activists who came there for medical assistance? Were you ever given specific instructions to treat this special cluster of persons? MS RAMHITSHANA No Chairperson, our seniors were instructing us that whoever is a patient who comes for help, we should attend to that person so we did not have the right to ask as to whether where does that person come from or from which area. We only knew that we were attending to any other person who is coming for help. MR NYAWUZA Thank you Madame Chair. Ma'am, did you know at the time that Dr Wilson, Tim Wilson, was son-in-law to Braam Fischer? MS RAMHITSHANA To tell you the truth I knew that Wilson because I was ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON Ms Ramhitshana, we'll be pleased if you can answer the question. Did you know that Dr Wilson is related to Braam Fischer? MS RAMHITSHANA No, I did not know. CHAIRPERSON That is all. MR NYAWUZA Did you know Dr Wilson's wife? MS RAMHITSHANA I knew Dr Wilson during social gatherings because I myself had people who knew Dr Wilson and that he was in Soweto Clinics. Then I saw him again in Alexandra. CHAIRPERSON Did you know his wife? Did you know his wife? MS RAMHITSHANA I did not know his wife. MR NYAWUZA Thank you, Madame Chair, that's the evidence of Ms Ramhitshana. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR NYAWUZA CHAIRPERSON Mr van Zyl, are there any questions you wish to put to her? MR VAN ZYL I have no questions. MS RAMHITSHANA She has given evidence which is similar to one given by ...(intervention) MR VAN ZYL No, I have said already I have no questions Madame Chair, thank you. CHAIRPERSON Thank you Mr van Zyl. Ms Pillay? MS PILLAY I have no questions, Madame Chair. CHAIRPERSON Ms Patel? MS PATEL Perhaps just one. Thank you Honourable Chair. CHAIRPERSON Yes you may proceed to put your question. CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS PATEL Besides your professional duties at the clinic, do you know of any circumstance or situation where ANC persons were given, who were not patients, were given shelter or were provided with money who came to the clinic? MS RAMHITSHANA Please repeat your question? MS PATEL Do you know of any circumstance or situation where an ANC person who perhaps was not a patient was given money or was provided with shelter at the clinic? MS RAMHITSHANA I didn't see any ANC person coming for any kind of help or to have a special treatment if I may say so. MS PATEL Thank you Honourable Chairperson. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS PATEL CHAIRPERSON Thank you. JUDGE DE JAGER Do you know of any previous fires before 1989 or any subsequent fires after 1989 at the clinic? MS RAMHITSHANA We only know of some fires in particular offices but because we we're not involved in the clerk's office or clerk's administration we did not know what happened exactly. JUDGE DE JAGER Was that before this fire or after this fire? MS RAMHITSHANA Before this one. We would be informed that the administrative ...(indistinct) are burned so they would be in the administration offices not in the clinic. JUDGE DE JAGER Thank you. CHAIRPERSON Ms Ramhitshana, thank you very much, you are now excused. MR NYAWUZA Thank you Madame Chair, that would be our evidence. WITNESS EXCUSED