amntrans AMNESTY HEARING 1998-04-28 ALIWAL NORTH THABISO JAMES MAKOALA, PHILA MARTIN DOLO AM3485/96 Zastron Mayaphuthi bridge shooting https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=54583&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/aliwal/aliwal1_bridge.htm MR PRIOR May I proceed Mr Chairman? CHAIRPERSON Yes. MR PRIOR Mr Chairman, the matter which proceeds this morning, the 28th April 1998 is the Amnesty Application of Thabiso James Makoala, No. 6026/97 and Phila Martin Dolo, No. 3485/96. The event is the Zastron Mayaphuti Bridge attack on the vehicle of a Mr Griesel and that occurred during November 1992. May I inform the Committee that Mr Griesel was injured in that attack, not fatally, he has subsequently died, he committed suicide, Mr Chairman, if that evidence will be forthcoming - that's why on the schedule before you in brackets "deceased" appears there. The two other victims who were with Mr Griesel at the time were Mr Tladi and Mr Ndeleni have been informed. Mr Ndeleni is present and I understand Mr Tladi had worked night shift and was unable to attend this morning and in no doubt if necessary his presence will be secured. The victim Mr Ndeleni will rely on the services of the evidence leader, that is myself, P.C. Prior. The implicated person Mr Letlapa Mphahlele I understand is present and is informed of the proceedings and the two applicants are represented by their respective attorneys. Thank you Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. MR MBANDAZAYO Thank you Mr Chairman. Mbandazayo's my name, I'm representing Phila Martin Dolo, Mr Chairman. MR MTHEMBU Mr Chairman, Mthembu, I represent Mr Makoala. MR PRIOR Mr Chairman, before we proceed, may the bundle that was prepared be marked "A" and there was a supplementary - there was copies of photographs, that they may be marked "B". Mr Chairman to some extent this is a overrun of the photographs already appearing but to avoid confusion, maybe mark that "B" and I understand that Mr Dolo and Mr Makoala have filed supplementary affidavits to their applications this morning. I think Mr Dolo is going to be kicking off so could that affidavit be marked "C", the affidavit of Mr Dolo and the affidavit of Mr Makoalo, "D". Thank you Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON Now gentlemen do you agree with that numbering? MR MBANDAZAYO Yes Mr Chairman I agree. MR MTHEMBU Correct Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON Right, carry on. PHILA MARTIN DOLO (sworn states) EXAMINATION BY MR MBANDAZAYO Mr Dolo, do you confirm the affidavit which is before the Committee that it was made by you and you abide by it's contents? MR DOLO I do. MR MBANDAZAYO Mr Chairman, as usual Mr Chairman, I won't go to - I'll go to paragraph - I'll start with paragraph 6 of his affidavit, Mr Chairman. I'll read the paragraph - "The target was identified by myself, the armament used in the operation was organised by myself in my capacity as a Regional Commander, I was charged with the task of getting the ball rolling operationally and intelligence wise and I was reporting directly to the Director of Operations regarding my activities and operations before and after they have taken place. I was therefore always having cadres at my disposal as I was involved in training new recruits." Now, Mr Dolo, for the benefit of the Committee, tell the Committee how did you identify the target? MR DOLO As stated in my application, that I was the commander of the unit. I was having subordinates, recruits and some other cadres were under my control. They were involved in information gathering about targets that have to be attacked and that information would be submitted to me and I would make an overall rule of which target do I choose that have to be attacked and which one does not have to be attacked, so I was the one therefore who was identifying the targets and after that I would report to my superiors prior to the attack and after the attack. MR MBANDAZAYO Can you also for the benefit of the Committee, tell the Committee how did you organise the armament, that is the weapons used in the operation? MR DOLO As the Regional Commander, when I arrived in that region or area, the way armaments that were there, the Commander was informed of them, they were under my control so I was the one therefore would be in charge of those arms I will just be ...[inaudible] in that way. CHAIRPERSON You've been asked how you identified the target and you've explained that you got information from people under you. Would you please tell us what target you identified? MR DOLO Like the one we are dealing with it now here? CHAIRPERSON The one you're asking amnesty in respect of. I would like to know what target it was? MR DOLO The one we once dealt about it last week and we're talking about and this one we're dealing with it now. The Zastron Sterkspruit Bridge. MR LAX Sorry are you saying if I understand you correctly that the target was the bridge or was that the target area? MR DOLO The target was on the side of South Africa, when you passed the bridge, that was the area where the target would be targeted. MR LAX So that was the locality, if you like, if you chose to carry out an attack, is that what you're saying when you talk about target, you really - because target could be used in a whole range of different ways. You identified an area where you would launch an attack. I'm just trying to get this clear? MR DOLO My unit or those were under me will embark on reconnaissance and surveillance work - that information would be submitted to me and I would be the one therefore to choose which target is to be attacked. So in this case, we are dealing with the cars which were approaching Sterkspruit from the Zastron side. MR LAX The question really goes to what you are saying now - was it random which cars you would attack or was purely fortuitous that those cars would arrive at that place at that time or would you have specific information that specific vehicles would be arriving at a specific place? We're trying to understand because a target is usually the end product at which you point a firearm - either a vehicle, a person or a something. MR DOLO I was having information about those targets. MR LAX Well expand on that for us please because you're being very quiet about that, tell us more, tell us what information you had, why you chose those targets, what was your objective in relation to those targets. That's what we want to know and unfortunately we haven't had much elaboration on that so far. MR DOLO The targets were from the area of Zastron approaching to Sterkspruit. Some were having businesses around there at Sterkspruit. Some were passing through Sterkspruit to the side of Lady Grey. The one we are talking about now was also from that direction of Zastron to Sterkspruit and the hours they were using to approach that area - it was - they normally used or approached at that area early in the mornings during working hours and the purpose of attacking those were normally or where cars and it's occupants were at that stage - we'll call them settlers or white colonists. The objectives of attacking them were part and parcel liberation of our people and the question of driving them away from the area of Sterkspruit so that we can take it over - Sterkspruit - and as part of liberation of ourselves. CHAIRPERSON It's gradually becoming a little clearer to me. Do I understand you to say that persons using that road at that time of the morning were usually people who worked in Sterkspruit and you wanted to drive them out, drive them off the land there, drive them out of Sterkspruit? MR DOLO That was part of the object. CHAIRPERSON So understandably your people could take over, is that part of the object? MR DOLO Yes. MR MBANDAZAYO May I proceed Mr Chairman? "We were four operatives for the Zastron Mayaphuti Sterkspruit Bridge incident. It was myself, Rogers, Scorpion and then Kleintjie. I was the Commander of the unit, I was carrying R4 rifle. Kleintjie -" Mr Chairman, it's not B8 it's 3.8, Mr Chairman - "3.8 Special, Scorpion also 3.8 Special and Rogers 7.65 Special. At the time of the incident we were staying at Jozannashoek in Transkei." Mr Dolo can you - I know that it has been asked many times - tell the Committee at whose place were you staying at Jozanneshoek in Transkei? MR DOLO I learned a name after all last week, the owner of the house was known by the name of - he was a Chief there of that area - well I think the name was Spitso which was mentioned last week. So we were staying in his house of which we use it as our base. CHAIRPERSON Sorry, could you? MR MBANDAZAYO Speak again? CHAIRPERSON Spitso? MR DOLO Yes. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. MR MBANDAZAYO Thank you Mr Chairman. I'll proceed to paragraph 8, Mr Chairman. "I was the only person who knew what was going to happen and I briefed my unit when we arrived at the bridge on the Zastron side. I deployed the unit on the side of the road. I was laying in ambush and the people who we were to attack, the cars whose occupants who were white." Now can you, before you lay this ambush, before you went to the target to the spot where you lay the ambush, can you tell the Committee, from Jozannashoek how did you manage to be at that particular spot where the incident took place? Can you take the Committee through that? MR DOLO We were four of us as mentioned in my affidavit. We went to Sterkspruit, the town of it, where we went to the house of Viyaphuti and arriving there, it was still dark, early in the morning. We found that the house was - inside it was dark, there were no lights which were litten and we thought maybe we'll be waking them early in the morning so we decided to go to another house of another African person. We went to the house of Nopise, I know him as Nopise I don't know whether he has another name and arriving there the lights were on in his house and we knock and he opened for us and I told him that we wanted to go to Zastron and I asked him whether he would be willing to transport us to that place. He thought maybe we wanted the car so why I told we also need him to transport us, to drive it for us and drop us at the other side of Zastron. After some time he went inside his house and I thought maybe he approached his wife and after some times he come back and he agree that he was going to take us to the other side of Zastron and we went to Zastron, to the side of Zastron and ...[inaudible] to that side of Zastron. MR MBANDAZAYO Yes, now let's go to paragraph, now 8 which I was talking about that where you laid the ambush, are you saying to this Committee that all along when you went to Viyaphuti and you went to Nopise and you were dropped at that spot the other, the members of your unit, they didn't know what was going to happen? MR DOLO Normally due to our modus operandi, when we're going to embark in any operation, that the Commander will be the only person who knew what is going to happen. As in this case, after arriving at the side of the bridge I briefed my unit of what is going to take place and I deployed them in that side of Zastron and we waited for the car. ADV. SANDI Sorry, Mr Mbandazayo, where did the members of your unit think they were going up to the point when you told them what the operation was going to be, where did they think they were going? MR DOLO During that period, we embark on these exercises I once mentioned, training exercises which were partly operations and partly exercise. I don't know what was in their minds, maybe they thought it was part of the exercise. ADV. SANDI When you say you briefed them, what exactly did you say to them? MR DOLO I told them that we are going to wait for the cars whose occupants were settlers and we are going to ambush it, that's what I told them and I deployed them in the ambush formation. CHAIRPERSON Your evidence was you waited for "the" car, was it a particular car that you were waiting for? MR DOLO We, at that stage, we knew that there will be these cars which were coming towards Zastron and anyone that comes will be our target. CHAIRPERSON But where were these - you said you were being dropped at the side of Zastron? MR DOLO Yes. CHAIRPERSON That isn't near this bridge is it? MR DOLO Zastron, I take it to be on the other side of the bridge. CHAIRPERSON Well isn't Zastron some distance away from the river? MR MBANDAZAYO Mr Chairman, just maybe he will answer that. I take it that on the Zastron side of the bridge - the bridge which separates Transkei and the Free State. CHAIRPERSON Yes, that's over the Orange River isn't it? MR MBANDAZAYO Yes Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON And Zastron is what, fifteen kilometres from there? MR MBANDAZAYO It's fifteen kilometres from that bridge but Zastron starts at the bridge, that area is called Zastron from the bridge up to the town. CHAIRPERSON So he doesn't mean the town of Zastron? MR MBANDAZAYO He doesn't mean the town, Mr Chairman, he means the bridge on the Zastron side of the bridge. CHAIRPERSON And you were there to attack any car that came along from the Zastron direction? MR DOLO Whose occupants were settlers. CHAIRPERSON Whose occupants were white. MR MBANDAZAYO Now paragraph 9 Mr Chairman. "A bakkie came and I ordered that we must fire but I was the only one who fired and I realised that the bakkie was driven by an African and I stopped and the bakkie passed." Can you explain that to the Committee? MR DOLO I deployed my unit in the ambush formation. There was someone some distance - whom I deployed a distance away from us to give us early warning in case that there is any car approaching from that direction, he will inform us. I am not sure whom I deployed to be in that position. As there was this car approaching, he informed us, give us a signal that there is a car approaching, the car will be approaching from the curve so we won't be in a position to see the car when it's approaching so that's why I deployed one of my commandants in that position and when this car approached. as I was armed with an R4 I ordered the unit that which was acting as an assault unit to attack as I was part of it and the car approached and I attacked it or I shot at it with an R4. The car was speeding, it was moving at a high speed. As I was shooting with it, it was passing me. To correct something in this case whereby I mentioned that the car was driven by an African - I'm not sure about that but there was an African inside the car and after realising that it was an African inside the car and the settlers, I stopped shooting at the car and the car proceeded to Sterkspruit, to the side of Sterkspruit. MR MBANDAZAYO What signal was going to be given in terms of the plan or what signal was actually given to you? MR DOLO To be honest with the TRC I'm not sure which signal did we use there, normally it would be the raising of the hand. MR MBANDAZAYO You don't remember the exact signal? MR DOLO Yes I don't remember. MR MBANDAZAYO Mr Chairman, I proceed with the same paragraph - "We retreated to our base and the unit handed the arms to me at the base. I thereafter reported to my superiors." Can you explain how did you retreat to your base? MR DOLO After this incident there were other places or one of the places I knew which we could use it as a hiding place for these hours. So we went to this place, it was the area known as Walazi, it's not far away from this border area of Zastron at the other side of Sterkspruit. We went to the house of Mangenene, one of the PAC members who was staying in that area. MR MBANDAZAYO Can you repeat the name Mr Dolo? MR DOLO Mangenene. We stayed at the place until it was afternoon and then we left the place to our base. The purpose, as it was a question of safety measures, after we attacked the vehicle, we thought maybe the occupants of the car would go to the police and report the matter so that's why we decided to retreat to this place. MR LAX Sorry, when you say then after leaving Mangenene's place, just correct me, that was at Walazi you said? MR DOLO Yes. MR LAX From there you went back to your base, was that at Jozannas? MR DOLO That afternoon? MR LAX Yes, but that as your base at Jozanneshoek, is that right? MR DOLO Yes. MR LAX Thanks ADV. SANDI What happened to this car that was shot at? MR DOLO I don't know what happened to it. I take it it went through to Zastron to Sterkspruit to the town of Sterkspruit. We learn it later after some days that one of the occupants went to the hospital there at Sterkspruit. ADV. SANDI So the bullet hit one of the occupants of the car, is that what you're saying? MR DOLO Yes one of the settlers. ADV. SANDI How many times did you shoot at this particular vehicle? MR DOLO I shoot at it as it was approaching to our direction and as it is passing through me and when it passed completely me I stopped shooting as I realised that one of or some of the occupants, one of the occupants was an African. MR MBANDAZAYO I proceed Mr Chairperson. "I thereafter reported to my superiors." Can you tell the Committee, how did you report to your superiors? MR DOLO As it is a procedure that each and after an operation we have to report to our - those who are in charge of us so in this case too, I did report the matter to my superiors through a written report. That's how I reported to my superiors. MR MBANDAZAYO Mr Dolo, is there anything you want to - that you have not mentioned to the Committee relating to this incident, you want to add or you want to say to the Committee? MR DOLO I will say that our struggle was just as our land was usurped by settlers, colonists and we were oppressed as a nation, African Nation by settlers, Europeans and the battle then was drawn between the African oppressed versus the European oppressor, between the African exploited versus European exploiter. So the struggle then, it was between those two nations, between the Africans versus European settlers who came into this country and coming to this case of so called civilians or whites who were normally known by you as civilians, it is well known after all that in South Africa at that stage even I think it is up to now, that there were no civilian whites in South Africa, it was a matter of force that they have to be trained in order to defend themselves against those so called terrorists. They were trained at a stage so we were fighting a nation that was armed and we had to defend ourselves, that's how too we formed liberation armies to defend ourselves, to defend the African Nation against the usurpers of our land. I don't think that will be much. MR MBANDAZAYO That is all, Mr Chairman. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MBANDAZAYO. ADV. SANDI Just one thing Mr Dolo, when you say you reported to your superiors, who is that? MR DOLO To Comrade Hepe. ADV. SANDI Is that Mr - I gather from the documents that I've seen, from previous documents - is that Mr Letlape Mphahlele? MR DOLO Yes. MR LAX Through you Chairperson, you say you presented a written report, can you remember when you sent that report, or did you hand deliver it? MR DOLO I think it was the following day that I wrote the report, if I'm sure. MR LAX Ja, carry on? You wrote it the following day, how did you get it to Mr Letlape Mphahlele? MR DOLO I gave it to another comrade whom I was working with to transport it to Hepe. MR LAX Ja, who was that? MR DOLO He was known by Phila. MR LAX That's the person you took over from, is that right? MR DOLO Yes. MR LAX So he would have taken it to Umtata where Mphahlele would have been at that time? MR DOLO I don't know where he was at that time so I gave to him to give it to Hepe. MR LAX You see in a previous matter you told us that after that operation you phoned Mphahlele? MR DOLO After which operation? MR LAX The one - the next one - the one that we dealt with next week which happened the day after this one. MR DOLO Yes. MR LAX You said in that one that you reported to Mphahlele but you did that by phone on that occasion? MR DOLO Yes. MR LAX So where did you phone him? MR DOLO At Umtata. MR LAX So he must have been at Umtata. MR DOLO I don't know. MR LAX Well if you phoned him there surely he was there? MR DOLO It was not the same day. MR LAX I won't waste my time with this nonsense. Carry on. MR DOLO Sorry, what are you saying? I don't know whether I hear you correctly, you say you won't waste your time with this nonsense? MR LAX Just carry on with your evidence. Mr Mphahlele, please keep quiet, this is none of your business, you're not giving evidence. Please behave yourself, really. MR MPHAHLELE You must behave yourself. CHAIRPERSON If this continues, I will have no option but to ask that you be removed. MR DOLO He won't be removed here. MR LAX Please continue with your evidence. MR MBANDAZAYO Thank you. Mr Chairman, can I just be given a minute just to talk to him? MR LAX What is nonsense with all due respect to all of you, if you want me to explain, is the fact that they phoned the man in Umtata, we know he was based in Umtata, we've heard evidence to that effect. Really, I'm not going to get into an argument with you about the issue, that's all I'm saying. MR MBANDAZAYO Thank you Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON Mr Mthembu, any questions? MR MTHEMBU None Mr Chairman, thank you. CHAIRPERSON You had finished with this? MR MBANDAZAYO Yes Mr Chairman, I've finished with him, thank you Mr Chairman. CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR PRIOR Mr Dolo, just to get it into it's time sequence, this event where you shot at this vehicle, this bakkie, was the 18th November 1992 and the following day was the 19th when you went to the Lady Grey Sterkspruit Road where Mrs Brummer, Mr Tsimani and the other gentleman, the coloured gentleman were killed, is that correct? In other words this matter occurred the day before the Lady Grey Hershel Sterkspruit matter which we dealt with last week? MR DOLO Okay yes. MR PRIOR Okay and in that matter you said following on a question from the Committee you phoned Mr Letlapa Mphahlele informing him of that matter and your evidence a short while ago was that in this matter you wrote to him the following day, that is the day in which you perpetrated that attack on Mrs Brummer and Mr Tsimani and the other gentlemen? MR DOLO By the following day I mean it was early in the morning before we went for this one of Lady Grey Sterkspruit ambush. MR PRIOR Yes, so before you left there you wrote your report and gave it to Mr Phila, that's Power or Ace, is that right? MR DOLO Yes. MR PRIOR I just wanted to get that clear. Why didn't you phone Mr Mphahlele in Umtata? MR DOLO I had to go to another operation that's why I didn't have much time to go to town and phone. MR PRIOR Alright. I just want to refer you to the Amnesty Application of Mr Thabiso James Makoala. If you look at the bundle before you to page 4 and 5 of the prepared papers. Would you agree with that list that those were the attacks carried out in that area and that was during 1992 except for the last one on page 4 which doesn't really relate to the Sterkspruit area - it was Umtata Ikwesi Lukuso attack but...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON It was also in 1994 - so it didn't relate to the time either. MR PRIOR Yes but apart from that one, would you agree that the attacks or the operations that he sets out on page 4 and 5 were all the incidents involving your unit which was housed at Jozannashoek that was during 1992? MR DOLO So what's you question? MR PRIOR No, do you agree that those are the complete number of attacks or operations that you carried out during 1992 when you and your unit were based at Jozannashoek during 1992? MR DOLO I don't agree. MR PRIOR Well he lists the Mayaphuti Bridge which is the one that we're dealing with today. MR LAX Mr Prior, maybe he could just tell us what else or maybe why he doesn't agree and what else he wants to add. CHAIRPERSON Or take off. MR PRIOR Thank you Mr Chairman, I'll do that. Well, in which respects don't you agree with Mr Makoala's list? MR DOLO I don't agree with Mr Prior when he says that I took part in all those attacks. MR PRIOR No I don't say you took part. ADV. SANDI Can I explain your question Mr Prior? MR PRIOR Yes, please. ADV. SANDI Mr Dolo, can you see page 4 and 5? MR DOLO Yes I can see. ADV. SANDI Would you say what appears there is a list of all the incidents and actions your unit was involved in whilst you were based at Jozannashoek? MR DOLO Yes I agree. CHAIRPERSON That is excluding the last one on page 4. MR PRIOR So you're known as Kenny, is that right? Kenny? MR DOLO There were two Kenny - I think Thabiso will be of help to explain to you. MR PRIOR Alright. Is that why you say you weren't involved in all these operations? MR DOLO Yes. MR PRIOR But these people were part of your unit, you would have given them the instruction to go out and do these operations, is that right? MR DOLO These were not the only people who were stationed at Jozanna. MR PRIOR Yes but during 1992 you were the commander, Regional Commander of that unit based at Jozannashoek? MR DOLO That's it. MR PRIOR And if members of your unit had gone out doing attacks the orders would have come from you, that's what I simply want to establish, or are you saying someone else may have given them orders without you knowing about that? MR DOLO I was the Regional Commander there, taking over from Phila as I mentioned before. MR PRIOR I'm happy with that, I understand that. MR DOLO And I was not stationed there at Jozanna later on. MR PRIOR Well maybe we can deal with it this way. You certainly had something to do with the Mayaphuti Bridge, that's the first incident he lists, can we tick that off, we can say you were involved there because that's what you're talking about today? MR DOLO Yes I'm involved. MR PRIOR Then the Zastron farm attack? MR DOLO No. MR PRIOR Can we accept that you never went on any attack with Makoala, Mr Makoala? MR DOLO Involving? MR LAX Sorry can I just come in there. Mr Prior you're putting that question in a very general way. "Can we accept you never went on any attack with him" - it's not - okay - even so, let's try and be a bit more specific so we can - because I understand the problem, I'm only referring to - can I just take over here - as I said earlier, maybe you can indicate to us - what is wrong with this list of attack, what's missing from it, what other acts are there that should be added, are there any that should be taken off that you don't agree happened and then in respect of each one maybe say whether you gave the order or whether Ace Phila gave it or someone else gave it so that we can get some degree of clarity on these issues. ADV. SANDI But, Mr Prior, isn't that exactly what you are trying to ascertain from the witness by going with him through each and every incident that appears on this list? MR PRIOR The purpose of my questioning on this aspect is whether he agrees with the list supplied by Mr Makoala who was a member of his unit at Jozannashoek. Whether he agrees that those were the sum total of operations that were carried out during 1992 while they were based in that area. MR LAX So we already know that's not the sum total from previous evidence we've heard because there were some training attacks they went on and other things they may have done so that's why I'm saying there's a problem with them putting it that way. CHAIRPERSON Well let us just going through them one by one and then asking if there are any others, but before we do that, can you perhaps help me. We've heard about a Kenny Madibula, is that you or is that the other Kenny? MR DOLO That's the second Kenny. CHAIRPERSON That's the other one. Right, you've told us that you did take part in the bridge, Mayaphuti Bridge attack. MR DOLO Yes I did. CHAIRPERSON And do you agree that the people there were the other applicant - Mr Makoala, Roger and Scorpion the other people? MR DOLO I do agree. CHAIRPERSON And can you tell us any other names for them? MR DOLO I know them with those names. CHAIRPERSON Right, then the Zastron farm attack, do you know of that attack? MR DOLO No, I don't know. CHAIRPERSON Do you know that there was such an attack? MR DOLO No, I don't know. CHAIRPERSON You don't know anything about such an attack? MR DOLO Yes. CHAIRPERSON You haven't heard from anybody? MR DOLO I heard it later when we just discussed but not officially. CHAIRPERSON The Sterkspruit Hotel attack? MR DOLO No, I don't know. CHAIRPERSON When quite a lot of - I think that's the one I'm saying - quite a lot of money came back from that. MR LAX Sixty Five Thousand, Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON You don't know about it? MR DOLO Yes. CHAIRPERSON The Lady Grey ambush? MR DOLO I took part in it. CHAIRPERSON And you agree with the people there? MR DOLO Except the name Jabu. CHAIRPERSON Jabu. Then the Lady Grey farm attack? MR DOLO No, I never take part in that. CHAIRPERSON Did you know about it? MR DOLO I heard about it. CHAIRPERSON Did you give any instructions for it? MR DOLO No. CHAIRPERSON And there is a second Lady Grey farm attack? MR DOLO Also, I never take part in this one. CHAIRPERSON Did you hear about it? MR DOLO No, I don't know whether I hear or not, I don't recall. MR LAX Did you - sorry - we can assume you didn't give any instructions for that either? That was the second farm attack in Lady Grey. MR DOLO I never take part in it and I never gave instructions. MR LAX Thank you. CHAIRPERSON And finally, the Sterkspruit Garage attack? MR DOLO I never participated in it. CHAIRPERSON Did you hear about it? MR DOLO Yes I hear about it. CHAIRPERSON Did you give instructions? MR DOLO No I didn't. CHAIRPERSON Now were there any other attacks in that year 1992 by members of this group who were living together? MR DOLO Repeat your question? CHAIRPERSON Were there any other attacks apart from the ones I've just asked you about that were committed by members of your group in 1992? MR DOLO Not in that area of Sterkspruit, Lady Grey, Zastron. CHAIRPERSON In other areas? MR DOLO Yes. CHAIRPERSON Can you tell us about them? MR DOLO It was at Ficksburg. CHAIRPERSON Ficksburg - and was that members of your group? MR DOLO Some of them. CHAIRPERSON And did you participate? MR DOLO Yes I did participate. CHAIRPERSON Any others? MR DOLO Not with that group. That was '93. CHAIRPERSON No, we'll leave that for the moment, other people might ask you about that. There were no others with that group in 1992? MR DOLO ...[inaudible] CHAIRPERSON Thank you. MR LAX Sorry, I just want to be absolutely clear here because you have already given us evidence in another matter of other training attacks that you went on - you remember that? MR DOLO Yes I recall. MR LAX Let's confirm all of those as well because we don't want to get bogged down in semantics later to say well those weren't attacks those were training operations or other things and they surface and then it looks like you're being tricked when in fact - let's rather get as many of those out as you can remember as well. I just don't want to have to let you feel you might be ambushed later around those issues when in fact it's not the intention. MR DOLO I mentioned two incidents prior to, or in the area of Lady Grey Ambush that there were also two attacks that were carried out. MR LAX Are those the only two that you know about? MR DOLO Which involved the enemy whereby it was physically involved. The other attacks - we carried them out in the mountains whereby there would be no settlers as part of the exercise. MR LAX So others weren't - I mean you didn't attack people or vehicles or houses belonging to anybody? MR DOLO No. MR LAX Thanks Chairperson. ADV. SANDI Mr Dolo did you mention something about attacks in the mountains, can you explain that? MR DOLO We were talking about the exercises except the two which I have mentioned, so I come across this question of the mountains whereby we were involved in the exercise. CHAIRPERSON Were these the normal sort of military manoeuvres? MR DOLO Yes. MR PRIOR May I proceed Mr Chairman? Maybe I can help you Mr Dolo - these two other attacks which you now mention, which were partly training and partly operational. The one occurred in March, early in March and that was the vehicle of Mr van Rooyen who was at the bakery. My information is that a petrol bomb was thrown at his bakkie which exploded on the bonnet causing burn areas on the vehicle and he went through that ambush and then went up to Herschel and reported the matter there. Can you recall that whether that would be the case? MR DOLO That would be the case as we had dealt with it last week. MR PRIOR And you see there was a motorist that followed behind it, a Mr Franscisco, who also worked at the bakery and when he was about four minutes behind Mr van Rooyen and he still saw the petrol bomb burning on the road and he drove past, he wasn't effected at all so you confirm that this was the first attack early in March? MR DOLO There were two attacks in that area before this one of the ambush of the area of Lady Grey - one involved the one you are mentioning and then there would be another one. MR PRIOR I'm trying to put a time frame on it - the one we are talking about now with - my information is Mr van Rooyen, you obviously didn't know his name or you may have known his name. He worked at the bakery. That occurred in March. The Lady Grey ambush with Mrs Brummer and Mr Tsimani occurred in November - it was eight months later. MR DOLO So which one are you telling about, the one that occurred in March? MR PRIOR Yes. MR DOLO No, I was not part of it. MR PRIOR Are you saying that shortly before the Lady Grey Sterkspruit where Mrs Brummer was involved, there was also a training/operational exercise on that same part of the road where a petrol bomb was thrown at a vehicle? MR DOLO Yes. MR PRIOR And exploded on the vehicle? MR DOLO When it was mentioned last week here by I think it's Thabiso, he said the petrol bomb never exploded, I think so. MR PRIOR Yes, you see there was one after this Lady Grey matter - I don't want to confuse the witness - it was after the 19th, about a week later, there was an incident on that road just beyond the bridge going up towards Sterkspruit, when Mr Franscisco's vehicle was shot at by a passing taxi or from out of a passing taxi. Do you know anything about that? MR DOLO If you can explain it again broadly? MR PRIOR The only other incident that we are aware of after the 19th November, that is the ambush we spoke about last week - Mrs Brummer, Mr Tsimani's matter - about a week after that there was a shooting incident on that same stretch of road on Mr Franscisco who also worked at the Sterkspruit Bakery or the bakery in Sterkspruit and his vehicle was shot at from a passing Hi-Ace taxi on the way to Sterkspruit. MR DOLO I know no Hi-Ace issue where he was but, maybe a week as you say it happened a week prior to that one of the ambush, there was two attacks that we were involved in it. MR PRIOR But those two attacks on your description they involve Molotov Cocktails, there was no shooting there? MR DOLO There were guns. MR PRIOR But there was no shooting? MR DOLO I don't recall. MR PRIOR Alright. What I want possibly just try and elucidate from you was that you were sent - you were deployed in that area, as I now understand your evidence, to get rid of the white people that were working in or had business interest in Sterkspruit, is that correct? MR DOLO Repeat again? MR PRIOR You were deployed in that area, Jozannashoek, Sterkspruit, to drive off or drive away or kill or get rid of the white people - as you call them the settlers - in that area, you wanted them out of Sterkspruit? MR DOLO That was part of the mission. MR PRIOR And that command, that order came from Mr Letlapa Mphahlele, is that correct? MR DOLO That was part of the instructions. MR PRIOR To drive out any white person in Sterkspruit, is that right? MR DOLO Yes. MR PRIOR And the intelligence that you gained was that most of the people that worked in Sterkspruit, lived either in Lady Grey or came from Zastron from either the Free State or from the Eastern Cape side, is that right? MR DOLO Yes. MR PRIOR And was also your intelligence that they always drove on that road at a certain time of the day in other words 7 o'clock, half past seven? MR DOLO Yes. MR PRIOR And is that why you planned the ambushes for that time? MR DOLO Yes. MR PRIOR Did you also have further intelligence that certain of these individuals drove particular motor vehicles, for example - Mr Griesel drove a bakkie, Mr Smit drove a motor car, the bakery had a certain vehicle, the furnishers, Score Furnishers had a certain vehicle - was that the type of intelligence that you had? MR DOLO Yes, but the names of the owners of the car we not know about. MR PRIOR So you were looking out for particular motor vehicles at that specific time? MR DOLO Yes. MR PRIOR Did you have for example makes and colours of vehicles? MR DOLO Yes, they were known, the cars. MR PRIOR And those were your specific targets - as I understand your evidence - you were looking out for those particular vehicles because they were connected very properly to Sterkspruit via the owners who were the white settlers. MR DOLO Yes. MR PRIOR I just need to know from you how it occurred that on this particular day the 18th November 1992 when you attacked this vehicle - how, as I understood your instructions last week, was that no vehicle where an African person was either riding on, passenger or driving was to be attacked? How that mistake could again have occurred on this occasion -sorry, I'll rephrase it - how that mistake arose on this day, the 18th November - you shot at a vehicle where in fact Mr Ndeleni who will later be called to give evidence was in fact a front seat passenger? MR DOLO The data I heard about those cars was never mentioned that there will be African people. MR PRIOR So did this come as a surprise to you on that day that you saw an African person? MR DOLO Yes. MR PRIOR So there was no need - there wasn't any warning given by whoever was waving his hat or his hand? MR DOLO No there was no warning. MR PRIOR So in fact the warning was simply that a vehicle was approaching? MR DOLO Yes. MR PRIOR The signal that was given had nothing to do with the occupants of that vehicle, is that correct? MR DOLO It was with the car as they know the car, the type of the car which was approaching. MR PRIOR Now Mr Griesel, I understood, worked in Sterkspruit, I think he was an electrical contractor or he worked for Eskom, he was laying cables there, did you know that? MR DOLO No, I didn't know. MR PRIOR So on that particular morning, what was your specific information about this vehicle, what were you to expect? MR DOLO The person I deployed to give us the early warning knew about those cars so he was in the position to identify the cars. MR PRIOR Alright, you say you didn't know the identity of the driver or the owner of the vehicle. Were you expecting more than one vehicle on that occasion to come through over the bridge? MR DOLO I was expecting more than one. MR PRIOR How many? MR DOLO More than one will mean two or three. MR PRIOR Well what was your information, would there be three vehicles at that time in the morning or was it - were you just going to take a chance? MR DOLO I was expecting more than one, I didn't know how many would there be. MR PRIOR And you were going to attack all those vehicles as they came across the bridge? MR DOLO If at the time ...[inaudible] MR PRIOR When you started shooting at this bakkie, how far away was it from you? MR DOLO It was a distance away from me. MR PRIOR Can you point out that distance from where you are sitting as you can see in the hall? CHAIRPERSON If that doesn't help you can go outside and point it out outside, it may be a more realistic distance. MR DOLO Don't you have pictures of that area? MR PRIOR Yes, go to page 53 of the bundle, 54, 56, 57, 58. Mr Chairman, unfortunately I don't have the originals of all those photographs. I do have an original of I think the photographs in bundle B. Yes, could you also maybe look at the bundle B which is also photographs of that bridge? Can I possibly ask you this question first - did you attack the vehicle, shoot at the vehicle as it was approaching the bridge or after it had crossed the bridge? MR DOLO Before it approached the bridge. MR PRIOR Right, if you look at page 53, photograph 1, it's a photocopy but it's fairly clear. There's a point A which indicates an arrow, in other words the vehicle was driving towards the photographer, do you agree with that? MR DOLO Yes. MR PRIOR And all those points B, H, J, G, and you can see there's two vehicles parked in the background. Is that where the shooting occurred, from that direction? MR DOLO I think if you can use page 54, I think it's a clear one. MR PRIOR Okay, that's the direction from which the vehicle was travelling, from Zastron towards the bridge, Sterkspruit? MR DOLO And I take point A to be the first bullet where it started the shooting. MR PRIOR Sorry, no, point A just gives you the direction of the vehicle. All the other points where cartridges were found, all along that area, starting from point J towards the bridge? MR DOLO The shooting started when the car was from this area of point A. MR PRIOR Alright, can you see there's a white car on the left hand side, looking at page 54? MR DOLO Yes. MR PRIOR I don't want the exact spot, was it more or less from that area that the shooting started, when the vehicle was in that position? MR DOLO It was more or less from point A. MR PRIOR Okay and it was shot at as it was driving towards the bridge? MR DOLO Yes. MR PRIOR And when it passed you did you then run after it firing your R4 rifle? MR DOLO No. MR PRIOR Did you stay in one position? MR DOLO Yes. MR PRIOR And did any of your comrades further up towards the bridge, did they also fire at this vehicle? MR DOLO I didn't notice that. MR PRIOR Okay. MR LAX I understood your previous evidence to be that once the vehicle had passed you, you realised there was an African in it and you stopped firing? MR DOLO Yes. MR LAX So you didn't continue shooting after it had passed you? MR DOLO Yes. MR LAX Okay, I just wanted to clarify that because your last answer made it seem as if you might have carried on shooting after the vehicle passed you. ADV. SANDI Let's have a look a page 54, that's photo number 2, where were you, were you on the gravel road or are you able to indicate the point where you were when you opened fire on this vehicle? Where were you in relation to this photo? MR DOLO I was just next to the bridge. ADV. SANDI Next to the bridge would be, if we can use annexure B, photo 2. MR LAX Were you standing at the point where he is pointing to? MR DOLO I was around there. MR LAX Somewhere in that vicinity? MR DOLO Yes. MR LAX Were you behind that barrier or in front of the barrier? MR DOLO I was behind it. MR LAX Were you on the other side of the fence or - see there's a fence there - behind the barrier a bit further back there's a fence that runs. MR DOLO No I don't think I was behind it. MR LAX So you were between the fence and the barrier? MR DOLO Yes. MR LAX Somewhere in that vicinity? MR DOLO Yes. MR PRIOR Mr Chairman, I've been passed a note by the caterers that tea - can tea be served, it's twenty to twelve. CHAIRPERSON Well I was just wondering, we started late but I'm aware that some people may have been here waiting for some time and whether they would like a short adjournment. MR PRIOR I think just from their side because they have after the tea, they have to start to preparing the lunch which is quite - so that's the note that's been passed so can we take the adjournment now? CHAIRPERSON I'm prepared to agree to a tea adjournment provided it takes about ten minutes, we don't have the normal long dragging on. Right we'll adjourn now and come back at ten to twelve. MR PRIOR Thank you Mr Chairman. COMMITTEE ADJOURNS EXAMINATION BY MR PRIOR (cont) Thank you Mr Chairman. Mr Dolo, you are unable to tell us who else in your unit whether they fired or not? MR DOLO (s.u.o.) ...[inaudible] MR PRIOR There was no report made to you after this operation by the other members as to what they did during this operation? MR DOLO I don't recall what did they say. MR PRIOR I just want to just deal finally with the one aspect that I dealt with before the tea adjournment. You confirm that your specific instructions or your specific command was to attack settlers, white people who had interests, business interests or had worked in Sterkspruit - they had to be attacked specifically in this area? MR DOLO They didn't have any knowledge about those settlers we had specific interest in that area of Sterkspruit. I only told them that we would be attacking certain cars whose occupants would be settlers. MR PRIOR You see, why I ask you that, it seems out of all the APLA matters that I'm aware of and this is a very general question, your operations in that area seem to be the only operations that targeted a specific community, a specific business community unlike the other attacks which seem to have been more of a random nature. MR DOLO Do I have to say something? MR PRIOR I just want to know can you comment on that? There seems to be a different pattern that emerges in your unit's operations during 1992 in the Sterkspruit area, that a specific interest group was targeted rather than random targets throughout the country as it occurred? MR DOLO It occurred that way. MR PRIOR The suggestion that was put last week and I must put it again in fairness to you, were you possibly protecting any particular person's interests in the Sterkspruit area? A business man for example? MR DOLO No. MR PRIOR Who may have had sympathies towards PAC, who was a PAC supporter? MR DOLO I said no. MR PRIOR The three persons that you mentioned, their names I think it was Pitso, Buyafuti and I there was another person that you mentioned who stayed in the ....[intervention] MR LAX Nopise was his name. MR PRIOR Nopise. Do you know whether those were business people, whether they had business interests in that area? MR DOLO Buyafuti I know him as a business person and Pitso we were using his house as our base and Nopise I knew him that he was an Africanist and he was having a car. ADV. SANDI Mr Dolo, should we understand you to say that of the three names that you've mentioned, that is Buyafuti, Pitso and Nopise only Buyafuti was a business man - is that what you're saying - and not Pitso and Nopise? MR DOLO To my understanding, Pitso, I don't recall whether -I never heard that he was having any businesses around Sterkspruit. ADV. SANDI Just to get clarity on one aspect of the matter here, let us go back to this day of the attack. If a white person unknown to you driving a vehicle unknown to you had driven past the point where you were planning to be attacking from, would this person have been attacked? MR DOLO The person I deployed to act as a early warning was familiar with the cars that were travelling during those hours so he knew which cars he was going to give signs to that we have to attack. MR PRIOR Could I maybe try and illustrate that a bit further by an example? If for example a tour bus with white people were driving over that bridge, would you have attacked that bus? MR DOLO I take it we would have attacked it if it were having settlers, occupants. MR PRIOR Even though they were unconnected to Sterkspruit? MR DOLO I take it so. The initiative it would be depending on me. MR PRIOR I see, so that would be the decision you'd make on the ground then and there? MR DOLO Yes. We were there for those specific operations. MR PRIOR Yes but you were there to attack vehicles that were going to Sterkspruit specifically? MR LAX Mr Prior, what he said, his evidence so far is that the person whose job it was to provide the early warning knew exactly which vehicles what was intended to attack. MR DOLO Yes. MR LAX That's you evidence as I understand it? MR DOLO Yes. MR LAX Presumably he wouldn't have given you a signal if a vehicle wasn't amongst those came past. He would have only have given you a signal if it was the vehicles that were part of your reconnaissance and part of your information gathering process and your intelligence. Those would have been the vehicles you would have attacked? Do I understand it correctly? MR DOLO Yes. MR LAX Thank you for the clarity, I'll leave it there. MR PRIOR I just need to put this to you. Mr Griesel, the white man, who was in the vehicle, he was in fact the driver. He was injured in the upper body, the shoulder area and he went to the Sterkspruit hospital. You don't disagree with that? MR DOLO Yes, I don't disagree. MR PRIOR He certainly wasn't fatally injured he had flesh wounds which were treated and he was later discharged. I need to put to you that Mr Ndeleni was also injured, that is the black man. Do you accept that? MR DOLO I don't deny that. MR PRIOR And in fact when you noticed it was a black man in the vehicle, you called off or stopped the attack, is that right? MR DOLO Yes. MR PRIOR And you allowed the vehicle then to pass over the bridge? MR DOLO Yes. MR PRIOR Thank you I have no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR PRIOR CHAIRPERSON Re-examination? MR MBANDAZAYO None Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Sorry, just one point I wanted to clarify. It is correct is it that you went there about June, July 1992? MR DOLO Yes. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. WITNESS EXCUSED MR MTHEMBU Mr Chairman, I will call Mr Makoala to the witness stand. THABISO JAMES MAKOALA (sworn states) EXAMINATION BY MR MTHEMBU MR MTHEMBU Mr Makoala is it correct that EXHIBIT D is your affidavit? MR MAKOALA That is correct. MR MTHEMBU And is it further correct that you have read Mr Dolo's affidavit and you wish same to be incorporated into your affidavit? MR MAKOALA That is correct, I read it and I would like it to be incorporated into mine. MR MTHEMBU And you also confirm Mr Dolo's evidence in the main? MR MAKOALA Yes that is correct. MR MTHEMBU Now would you please tell the Committee what role you played in this attack, did you fire any shots or not? MR MAKOALA I did not shoot in this attack. MR MTHEMBU Is there anything further that you wish to tell the Committee or is that your testimony? MR MAKOALA I would like to say to the Committee we were engaged in the armed struggle and I was also a soldier and I took orders from my commander. I was committed because we were really fighting for the liberation of the Africans. Comrade Dolo explained already that the war was between the Africans and the Settlers, in other words the oppressors. It was a fight between the oppressors and the oppressed. I am not sorry for what I did. MR MTHEMBU And is that your evidence? MR MAKOALA That is correct. MR MTHEMBU Thank you Chairperson, I have no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MTHEMBU MR PRIOR Mr Mbandazayo? MR MBANDAZAYO No questions Mr Chairman. CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR PRIOR Mr Chairman I take it what he said last week is also relevant to these proceedings because - thank you. Mr Makoala were you also on this occasion as you were in the Lady Grey Hershel Sterkspruit ambush where Mrs Brummer was killed, were you also the person who gave the signal of the approaching vehicle? MR MAKOALA Which attack are you referring to sir? MR PRIOR This one that you've asked the amnesty for today, the Sterkspruit Mayaphuti Bridge on the Zastron Sterkspruit border. MR MAKOALA No it was not myself. MR PRIOR Who gave the signal of the approaching vehicle? MR MAKOALA I do not quite remember who gave the signal because these incidents took place long time ago and I was involved in many incidents, I do not remember very well. MR PRIOR Is this incident fairly vague in your memory, this particular one? MR MAKOALA Can you repeat your question sir? MR PRIOR Is this particular incident fairly vague, you can't remember much detail about this incident? MR MAKOALA There are parts where I remember and some I do not remember. MR PRIOR Well what weapon did you have with you? MR MAKOALA I had a 3.8 special. MR PRIOR And did you use it on that occasion? Did you fire any shots at this vehicle? MR MAKOALA No, I did not use it. MR PRIOR Why not? MR MAKOALA Comrade Dolo was the commander of the unit and he ordered that we should not shoot. I followed an order, I did not shoot. MR PRIOR Was he the only person who shot on that occasion? MR MAKOALA That is correct. MR PRIOR I want to suggest something to you. If you had managed to stop that vehicle, in other words caused it to come to a standstill, was the 3.8 used to then execute or finally shoot the people, occupants? In other words the coup de grace? MR MAKOALA Repeat your question please? MR PRIOR I want to suggest something to you because it seems to have happened in the application that we will hear later on, that the R4 would be used to shoot at the vehicle while it was moving, if that was then brought to a standstill by that shooting, the 3.8's in other words the handguns would be then used to finish off the occupants of the vehicle? Was that the part of the plan? MR MAKOALA Yes, it was part of the plan but an order was issued out and I was a soldier just following the orders. I would not do anything that was not ordered by my commander. MR PRIOR But you knew that while you were standing on the road waiting for a vehicle to approach that you would then go and finish off the occupants with your handgun? MR MAKOALA Please elaborate on your question sir? MR PRIOR I am trying to understand the role that you were to play there because it seems that you were just standing there, you did absolutely nothing. Was your role to be the following - if the vehicle had been brought to a standstill by, after it had been shot at with the R4 rifle, your job was then to go and finish off the occupants with your handgun? MR MAKOALA I was deployed in the assault group that's correct, I was going to attack that car, the occupants of the car. MR PRIOR Are you saying you would have only have attacked once orders had been given you to do specific things or did you know beforehand what your role was to be or your task was to be? Is that clear to you? MR MAKOALA I was deployed and I had to wait for an order from my commander. If he said shoot I would have shot. MR PRIOR Look at bundle B. These are photographs, photograph 1, 2, 3 and 4 which were taken on the 27th May 1995 during a pointing out that you did, do you agree that that is the spot where the ambush took place? If you look at photographs 2, 3 and 4 where you are pointing out certain things, are those the positions that your units were in during the ambush? MR MAKOALA That is correct. MR PRIOR Did you notice who the occupants of the vehicle were at the time when the ambush commenced? CHAIRPERSON It's a very difficult question Mr Prior. When did the ambush commence in your opinion, when the man signalled? MR PRIOR Well once the shooting started, maybe I should be more specific, once the shooting started were you able to see who the occupants were? MR MAKOALA I realised that some of the occupants were the Boers. After the car had passed Comrade Dolo issued out an order and we realised that there was an African in that car. MR PRIOR When you talk about a car was it a pickup, a bakkie? MR MAKOALA It was a bakkie. MR PRIOR Was there anyone on the back of the bakkie that you remember? MR MAKOALA Yes, there was someone. MR PRIOR And who was he, do you know who he was? MR MAKOALA No. MR PRIOR Was it an African person? MR MAKOALA I explained already that I do not remember whether it was an African or not but I do remember there was a person at the back of the bakkie. MR PRIOR How did you get to that position, that is at the Mayaphuti Bridge, on that morning? How did you arrive there? MR MAKOALA An African man, Nopise, drove us. MR PRIOR And after the attack where did you go? MR MAKOALA MR PRIOR And thereafter? MR MAKOALA In the afternoon we went back to our base at Jozannashoek. MR PRIOR I want to refer to page 4 of the bundle, that is the annexure to your amnesty application. According to your list, the only two matters where your two co-applicant Mr Dolo says he was involved was the Mayaphuti Bridge, that's the first one you list and the Lady Grey ambush, do you confirm that? MR MAKOALA Yes I confirm that. MR PRIOR When you mention the Sterkspruit Hotel attack, the Kenny that you refer to there, who are you referring to? MR MAKOALA I am referring to Kenny Mudibula. MR PRIOR I want to refer you to page 34 of the bundle, it's an English translation of the Sotho handwriting or the statement from page 17 to 31. Obviously you've been through this with your attorney? Just for your comment, under Sterkspruit Hotel, Moleko Hotel, you said "I was myself, Kleintjie, T.J. Mokala, Kenny Peledolo, Jabu Dr Zamzam - I don't know his real names - and Tembu Okapi." MR MTHEMBU Mr Chairman, I'm not sure whether these statements have since been cancelled as part of a bundle or not because ...[inaudible] I have has a stripe right across. MR PRIOR Yes that's so, it doesn't make it any less a document, it was simply crossed through for the purposes of this application. MR MTHEMBU But now if they have been cancelled would it be fair to ask the witness all those issues, it didn't form part of this bundle. CHAIRPERSON But the document has been available at other hearings hasn't it, where they hadn't been crossed out. Everything has been crossed out on this one except what is relevant to the Zastron Bridge incident. MR MTHEMBU Correct Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON That is merely to confirm that that is what we should read now. But now counsel is cross-examining on other matters. MR PRIOR Mr Chairman, I'll leave it, I'll raise it at a different time because that other matter is coming up again. CHAIRPERSON Well if it is going to be raised surely you should raise it with the witness now? That he said it not once but three times as I think? MR PRIOR But I'll raise it, he can ponder it, he can formulate an answer and give it to us because this matter, the Lady Grey matter, is going to be put on the role again Mr Chairman, it's been adjourned to a date to be arranged so obviously that matter will be raised again at that stage. I've no further questions. Any re-examination? MR MTHEMBU None Mr Chair, thank you. FURTHER CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR PRIOR Just one thing, according to the evidence of Mr Dolo you had no knowledge of this operation until you got there to the scene where this attack was going to happen, is that right? MR MAKOALA That is correct. MR PRIOR So how did you know the orders for this operation were issued by Mr Mphahlele? MR MAKOALA Can you repeat your question please. MR PRIOR How did you know then if you had no prior knowledge of this operation until you got there, how did you know that the orders were issued by Mphahlele? MR MAKOALA Mr Mphahlele was the director of operations and I knew that all the operations were issued out by him even though we had other commanders working under him. MR PRIOR So was this just an assumption on you part or did you have direct knowledge of that? MR MAKOALA It was my knowledge of the things. MR PRIOR Well how did you acquire that knowledge, who spoke to you, who told you, did you speak to Mphahlele yourself, how did you personally acquire that knowledge? MR MAKOALA We had political classes during our training and it was explained about the chain of command and how the chain of command worked and I got it from those classes. Now it was within me, it was something within me, it's something that I knew - that's shortly my answer. MR PRIOR So you knew that Mphahlele was a director of operations, is that what you're saying? MR MAKOALA That is correct. MR PRIOR And therefore you made the assumption that because you knew the line of command that this command must have emanated from him? MR MAKOALA According to me yes, there was no operation that could be conducted without his knowledge. MR PRIOR Thank you. After - you've heard the evidence of Mr Dolo that he says after some days they had heard that one of the settlers had been taken to the hospital at Sterkspruit, do you remember he said that? MR MAKOALA I remember. MR PRIOR Did you hear that as well? MR MAKOALA I also heard. MR PRIOR Did you hear whether the African person was also injured in that attack? MR MAKOALA No. WITNESS EXCUSED MR PRIOR Mr Chairman may I just enquire - is the Committee satisfied with the photographs and the plan and the distances - I have Mr van Vuuren who took the photographs at the pointings out, if there's nothing unclear then I will....[intervention} CHAIRPERSON Nothing really hangs on the distances do they? Now we have a version which is, as I understand it, uncontested. MR PRIOR And it's consistent with what Mr Griesel's affidavit says - I just want to enquire from my learned friends for the applicants that they're not challenging the general thrust of Mr Griesel's affidavit, he's no longer with us and it seems to be consistent with what the applicants have said as well as the photographs. MR LAX Just refer us to the page Mr Prior, of Mr Griesel's affidavit? MR PRIOR 72 - basically in two paragraphs - paragraph 1, 2 and 3 - he sets out the facts that he was travelling towards Sterkspruit, he saw three men at the bridge, he heard shots, he felt a burning sensation in his arm and his passenger went forward, the windows were shot out and he drove to the police station. He then describes his injuries. MR LAX Gentlemen, any objections to that? You've presumably read it? MR MBANDAZAYO Mr Chairman I have read it myself, I don't see any reason you cannot - I don't have any objections Mr Chairman. MR LAX I couldn't see any reason why you would object to it. CHAIRPERSON You have no objection to that affidavit going in and that therefore there's no need to call any supplementary evidence in that regard. Thank you and Mr Mthembu? MR MTHEMBU No objections Mr Chairman. MR PRIOR Yes I have one of the victims Mr - I've actually put it to one of the witnesses that he would be called - Mr Ndeleni who is present. Mr Chairman I propose to call him, he will be very short evidence, just to satisfy the requirement that the victims have also been given an opportunity to address the committee. I call then Mr Ndeleni, please. Is Mr Ndeleni present? MR LAX I remember seeing him down the passage - oh here he comes. MR PRIOR The statement appears at page 65. THOMAS NDELENI MJALI (sworn states) EXAMINATION BY MR PRIOR: On the 18th November 1992 you were travelling in a bakkie being driven by Mr Griesel and you were driving from Bloemfontein towards Sterkspruit, is that correct? MR MJALI That is correct. MR PRIOR And you had another person with you, is that right? MR MJALI That is correct. MR PRIOR Do you remember his name? MR MJALI Petrus Tladi. MR PRIOR And was he at the back of the bakkie? MR MJALI That is correct. MR PRIOR Was it an open bakkie or was it a bakkie with a canopy? MR MJALI It had a canopy. MR PRIOR And I understand from your statement that you made to the police way back in 1992 that you had left Bloemfontein at about 3 o'clock in the morning? MR MJALI That is correct. MR PRIOR I want you just to pause there and just tell us were you working for Mr Griesel at that time? MR MJALI Yes, we were working for him. MR PRIOR And what line of work did Mr Griesel - was Mr Griesel? MR MJALI He was an electrician. MR PRIOR Sorry, I suggested to one of the witnesses that it may have been Eskom but my understanding was that you were laying cables, electrical cables in the Sterkspruit area, is that correct? MR MJALI That is correct. MR PRIOR Was that for Eskom or was that a totally different contract? MR MJALI It was a different contract. MR PRIOR Thank you, alright. So that was the purpose of you driving from Bloemfontein to Sterkspruit at that time. Can you tell the Committee what occurred as you approached the Sterkspruit Mayaphuti Bridge, that is the bridge over the Orange River? MR MJALI When we approached Mayaphuti Bridge we saw four men approaching from the sides. When we approached the bridge they pulled out their firearms and they shot at us. I was in the front with my boss and he said to me 'sak' your head we're being shot at. Because he was a person who usually trained, he went on driving, the rays were shattered and I could not see. MR PRIOR You say the windows - the glass was shattered? MR MJALI Yes. MR PRIOR Yes? MR MJALI A bullet hit him on the head at the bridge. God was with us because we managed to drive past the bridge. Peter was sitting at the back of the bakkie. He said these people pointed at us and said we were lucky to escape. My boss went on driving until...[intervention] MR PRIOR Did you drive through to Sterkspruit? MR MJALI Yes that's correct, Sterkspruit. MR PRIOR Did you report there to the police station? MR MJALI We went straight to the police station sir. MR PRIOR And from there to the hospital? MR MJALI Yes. MR PRIOR Is it correct you were also injured in that shooting? MR MJALI Yes I was also injured. MR PRIOR And were you examined by the District Surgeon? MR MJALI That's correct. MR PRIOR It looks like Dr Du Plessis? MR MJALI That is his name. MR PRIOR What injuries did you have? MR MJALI The glasses cut me on the face. MR PRIOR They were described as one centimetre abrasions on the top of the head. MR MJALI Yes even on my head. MR PRIOR And the opinion that was expressed, I just ask you for your comment that this was caused by shrapnel or glass? Is that possible? Pieces of the bullets that hit inside or wherever the vehicle or the glass that was broken, that caused your injuries? MR MJALI Yes I was told so by the doctor. MR PRIOR Just one aspect - you said four men, you noticed four men at the bridge and you said they started shooting, can you be a bit more specific, is that your general impression or are you able to say each one of those four men fired shots? MR MJALI All these people were armed but I did not see whether they all shot. MR PRIOR So if you said that it's just your impression that they were all shooting, you can't say with any certainty? MR MJALI I think so sir. CHAIRPERSON Are you sure that they were all armed? INTERPRETER The speaker's mike was not on. MR PRIOR The question was are you sure that they were all armed? MR MJALI They were all armed. MR PRIOR Mr Chairman that appears also from Phila Dolo's affidavit at page 7, he indicated that they were all armed. CHAIRPERSON Well I'm not reading his affidavit. At page 65, paragraph 5 "ek het op geen stadium 'n geweer of pistool gesien by die swart man nie" MR MJALI Can you please repeat the question. CHAIRPERSON In the affidavit that you made on the 18th November 1992 you said "At no point did I see a pistol or a weapon in the hands of the black men." MR MJALI I saw them with guns, maybe I was scared when I gave this statement. MR PRIOR Yes that's clear from his statement, Mr Chairman, I think it doesn't take the matter any further, the applicant's confirm they were all armed. CHAIRPERSON Okay. MR PRIOR Thank you I have no - that's the evidence. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR PRIOR CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MBANDAZAYO Thank you Mr Chairman, only one question, the Chair has already asked the other one. Also somewhere in paragraph 3 of the first sentence- "When we were about 30 minutes from the bridge I saw two black people on the right-hand side of the bridge next to the barriers" Then the last paragraph, before I ask the question, paragraph 6 - not the last paragraph Mr Chairman, "During the incident I didn't notice any other person in the immediate vicinity except for the two black people at the bridge and a white Isuzu Bakkie." My question is, today you are telling the Committee that you saw four people and in your affidavit you talked about two people only - you saw on the day in question. Can you explain that to the Committee? MR MJALI When we went to the bridge I saw four people - two on the right and two on the left. These people were four. MR MBANDAZAYO Thank you Mr Chairman, I have no further questions now. CHAIRPERSON You not only said two, you described the two people that you saw? Can you explain that? MR MJALI I saw four people, two on the left side and two on the right side. MR LAX Mr Mthembu? CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MTHEMBU Thank you Mr Chair. Mr Mjali, is it correct that when you made this statement the events or the incident were still fresh in your mind? MR MJALI Yes, it was fresh. That is why I couldn't even think properly, I was shocked. MR MTHEMBU Thank you Mr Chair, no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MTHEMBU FURTHER EXAMINATION BY MR PRIOR Mr Mjali, how long did you work for Mr Griesel at that time? MR MJALI It was about a year and nine months. MR PRIOR And how long was that contract that you were working on in that area. How long had you already been working in Sterkspruit for at that time? MR MJALI I really do not remember for how was the contract when we worked at Savilles, but we had worked from the foundation of the building until we finished. MR PRIOR So were you wiring a house? MR MJALI It was at Savilles Furnishers at Sterkspruit? MR PRIOR Savilles? MR MJALI Savilles, yes. MR PRIOR And you're not sure how long you'd been in the area for at the time the shooting happened? MR MJALI I do not remember. MR PRIOR Thank you. CHAIRPERSON Did you usually drive there each day or did you got and stay at Sterkspruit? MR MJALI We travelled every day. CHAIRPERSON So you arrived at this bridge early in the morning every day? MR MJALI Every morning sir. MR PRIOR There's just one question arising, through you Mr Chair, if the witness is able to say what time approximately this occurred? MR MJALI I think it was between half past five and five. MR PRIOR Thank you Mr Chairman, that's the evidence that I have in respect of this matter. WITNESS EXCUSED CHAIRPERSON Gentlemen it seems that this matter is similar to the other ones that we have discussed, that there may be additional evidence available particularly in the light of the statement which I've showed you both this morning that the PAC APLA will be issuing a statement to the Amnesty Committee which will enable us to reach finality on the matter and it seems to me that we can merely at this stage adjourn the matter through a date to be arranged if that suits you gentlemen? MR PRIOR Mr Chairman, may we adjourn at this stage, I don't know if lunch is ready and maybe reconvene earlier, say at half past one and commence with the matter the application of Mr Gqomfa? CHAIRPERSON Well is everybody here for that? MR PRIOR Well Mr Chairman, Mr Wagenaar who knows about the matter who has been in communication with us hasn't arrived yet, I don't know whether I should make enquiries? CHAIRPERSON I suggest you do from what we've heard in the last few weeks, things happen to people on the road in this part of the country and something may have happened to delay him. MR PRIOR I will do so, thank you Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON We'll now adjourn - I don't think half past one is very realistic Mr Prior, I think quarter to two will enable the staff to handle the matter better. We'll adjourn now till quarter to two. COMMITTEE ADJOURNS ON RESUMPTION MR PRIOR Good morning Mr Chairman. Mr Chairman, may the matter which stood over from last week, that is the Lady Grey, Sterkspruit attack where Mrs Brummer et al were involved. The applicants were Martin Phila Dolo and Mr James Makoala. May that be adjourned at this stage Mr Chairman, I do have members of the family of Mr Tsimani present, I'd like him to get away. The initial indication is that the allegations made by the Tsimani family need to be properly investigated. I would not like to comment on the state of those preliminary investigations at this stage but in my view I think the matter needs to be fully canvassed and we'll require some time. May the matter then stand adjourned, sine die, with the date to be arranged with all the legal representatives and the interested parties as soon as those investigations have been completed? CHAIRPERSON Anything to say gentlemen? MR MBANDAZAYO None Mr Chairman. I'm in agreement with what Mr Prior is saying, that it must be fully investigated if it need be. Thank you Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON It also appears to me that this may be one of the cases which may be effected by information which is to be supplied by the PAC and APLA which will be a general application and this seems to fall into that category. MR MBANDAZAYO Yes Mr Chairman, it falls in that category. CHAIRPERSON Mr Mthembu do you agree? MR MTHEMBU I have nothing to say Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON Very well. Do you request that the matter now be adjourned to a date to be arranged and to a venue to be arranged. MR PRIOR Thank you Mr Chairman. COMMITTEE ADJOURNS