amntrans AMNESTY HEARINGS 1998-04-28 ALIWAL NORTH LUYANDA GQOMFA 0949/96 Zastron Mayaphuthi bridge shooting https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=54584&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/aliwal/aliwal1_bridge.htm MR PRIOR Thank you Mr Chairman. Mr Chairman we proceed now with the amnesty application of Luyanda Gqomfa, application 0949 of '96. The appearances are as in the previous matter, except that Mr Mthembu is no longer appearing, Mr Mbandazayo appears for the applicant. He is the only applicant in this matter. Mr Chairman may the bundle that's been prepared be marked "A", and I have put up a second bundle of namely photographs as "B". They indicate the points of relevance in my view, relevant to this particular amnesty application, and my I place on record Mr Chairman, that I have conferred with my learned friend, Mr Mbandazayo, who has taken instructions on the bundles, particular bundle "B", and by consent the bundle "B" can go in as being an accurate reflection of the various points which are depicted on those photographs. CHAIRPERSON Will Mr Gqomfa's affidavit the be "C". MR PRIOR I omitted to say that. Yes, his affidavit will been "C". Mr Chairman, may I just for the record place the following on record, the notices were sent out, the section 19 notices, to victims. The deceased in this matter was a Mr Smit who died during this operation, during this attack. His widow was informed, and she obtained the services of Mr Jan Wagenaar, attorney with Wagenaar, Muller and Du Plessis of Pretoria. My I place on record, Mr Chairman, that Mr Wagenaar had certain difficulties. This matter was set down for hearing for last week, but we accommodated him and set it down for today onwards. I, he is not present and I phoned him at the luncheon adjournment and he indicated that he would not be appearing because of certain difficulties he had had in obtaining funding of his client through the Legal Aid. Mr Chairman, I don't think this is the time to go into the merits of what Mr Wagenaar told me, I accept what he has said to me there. I know that there was some difficulties that he had, or some objections that he had voiced to the TRC, and those were taken up with the relevant officers there. Suffice to say that he is not appearing. His client has been informed about the position and there is no appearance from the widow of Mr Smit. I indicated to him nevertheless that this matter as in the case of the other matters would be postponed to hear evidence from the PAC or APLA High Command, and he indicated that at that stage he my well have been properly instructed and my appear at that stage, but that decision would be made at a later time. The other victims that were involved was a Mr Deon Maartens who was in the vehicle driven by Mr Smit, unfortunately he has since passed away in a motor accident unrelated to this event. A Mr A Franzsen who is present today and a Mr B Maliehe, he has been given notice, but we've had no feed back from him as to whether he wants to appear in the matter or not. The implicated person is as in the other matter, Mr Mphahlele and he is present. Thank you Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON Mr Mbandazayo, do you wish your client to be sworn in? MR MBANDAZAYO Yes, Mr Chairman. MR PRIOR Thank you, Chairperson. LUYANDA GQOMFA (Duly sworn in, states). EXAMINATION BY MR MBANDAZAYO Thank you, Mr Chairman. Mr Gqomfa, do you confirm that the affidavit before the Committee was returned by you and that you abide by its contents. MR GQOMFA That's correct. MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Chairman, I will leave the other paragraph, I'll start with paragraph 10 which read thus, "With regard to this incident, it was on the 18th of March 1992 during the white referendum. I was deployed in Sterkspruit by Letlapa Mphahlele and the late Temba Ntapayi. On this day Happy came to me with the ...(indistinct). They took me to a certain place in Sterkspruit where plans were made to get a car for an operation" Now, just before I finish the paragraph I would like you to explain to the Committee what transpired when Happy Letlapa Mphahlele came to you and it was decided that you get a car for operation and what type of operation was that one? MR GQOMFA Shortly I can say, on that particular day, it was on the 18th of March 1992. It was a day of the referendum as Mr Mbandazayo had said. When this Comrade came, Comrade Happy, and the other two Comrades, he was the third one. There was another Comrade who was providing us with transport that was at Datsun. It was blueish in colour, greenish in colour. We took the direction to Zastron, from Sterkspruit to Zastron. I think we took the right-hand route. We stopped at about 10 - 15 kilometres. We alighted from the Datsun, and the Datsun went back. After which a bakkie, Isuzu, came from the Biscuit Bakery. The colour was cream, the colour of the bakkie was off-white. There was only one occupant in that bakkie. We decided not to shoot the people who were in that car because we didn't have a reason, we didn't have a grudge, we didn't hold a grudge to other Africans but we wanted their car. We had no reason to shoot at that person. All we wanted from them was transport. We wanted to use their transport. We took the car from him. We gave him a R20 note. We told them to go to the Police Station to report that the APLA cadres took his car. We ensured him that he would get his car in the same condition. We left that Comrade there. MR MBANDAZAYO Can you, Mr Gqomfa, explain to the Committee how did you approach him? Were you having your firearms pointed at him, how, can you explain to the Committee the manner in which you managed to take the car from him? MR GQOMFA What happened is this, this car was approaching us. There were three or four of us. We had our pistols. There was only one person who was holding a pistol. It was Comrade Mphahlele. When they came he shot in the air, the Comrade shot in the air. As he was an elderly person he was shocked and he stopped. That's when we took his car. CHAIRPERSON Before you go on, I don't know, I would like some guidance from the Interpreters, but it seems to me it might be better if the microphone was a little bit further from the applicant. Thank you. MR MBANDAZAYO Thank you, Mr Chairman. I will proceed to paragraph 11 Now, you are explaining in this paragraph how you were deployed, how you were armed. Can you tell the Committee, at the time you were deployed, were you aware what type of operation are you going to embark on in that area when you went there? MR GQOMFA Before we could go to that place we didn't know where the operation was, but as cadres we knew that if we were deployed inside the country, we knew what type of job we would perform. I'm not sure if you're satisfied with my answer. MR MBANDAZAYO Tell the Committee, at what stage did you become aware of the target? MR GQOMFA When we took the transport, we didn't know what we were going to do, but we knew that there should be an operation and the details of the operation. We only knew that we were taking the arms where we alighted from the vehicle. MR PRIOR Sorry, you haven't answered the question. The question was, at what stage did you become aware of the target. It's really quite a simple question. Do you not understand the question? I'm just trying to help, because your own lawyer is asking you the question and you seem to have difficulty answering it. MR MBANDAZAYO My question is, at what stage did you become aware of the target. You have explained to the Committee that as a soldier you were aware that there is an operation which was going to take place. Now my question is, tell the Committee at what stage did you become aware of the target? MR GQOMFA It is like this, we got to know about the operation when we taking the guns. We were not told about the target, because according to the nature of the operation - as there were cars that were going up and down, he with was the one who would tell us about the ambush. He was the one that was going to shoot first and the car that he would be shot at that be the one that would be identified as the target. MR MBANDAZAYO Can I explain to the Committee, you talk about the arms, you became aware when you were taking the arms. Can you explain to the Committee this process, at what stage did you have to go and take arms, was before you took the vehicle, the bakkie, or after that? Can you explain to the Committee? MR GQOMFA When we were taking this gentleman's transport, as we came using this bakkie, we were approaching the road to Zastron - to Sterkspruit, but still in the Transkei area. It's where we met with this bakkie, the one that took us back to the place were we took the vehicle. That's where we got this ammunition from this bakkie taking them to another bakkie. It's where the briefing took place. MR PRIOR ...(inaudible) that you got? What was said to you during that briefing? MR GQOMFA As this Comrade was also the Commander of the unit and the Director of the operation that same time. We were on our way to perform an operation, that was going to be an ambush, that's the type of operation. As he would be the Commander of unit, he would be the one who would spring the attack. Automatically when he starts shooting we would follow INTERPRETER May the speaker please repeat the last phrase. MR GQOMFA That's where we would take our guns as I have explained earlier on. MR PRIOR So he would - just to clarify this - he would know which vehicle to shoot at, and on his opening fire you would follow suite? MR GQOMFA That's correct. MR PRIOR Thanks. That's much clearer, thank you very much. MR MBANDAZAYO Can I proceed Mr Chairman? Mr Chairman paragraph 12 he has already covered is the first line, I will start with the second, "When Letlapa shot we shot this car. It was a white Toyota Corolla 16V. There were four occupants in the car. This car stopped. Three of the occupants climbed out of the car and ran away. One did not survive. When came close to this target so we find this person. Van was pointing a firearm to him. Letlapa came and said we must shoot him and I shot him - Mr Chairman - I shot him with an R5 rifle in his chest. After that Letlapa shot him in the head with .38 pistol. After finishing we petrol-bombed the car with all it's contents, then we left the scene." Now, you are saying in this affidavit there were four occupants of the car and they ran away. You also said in the affidavit one did not survive. Can you explain that to the Committee, what do you mean by that? MR GQOMFA What I mean is this. Our aim was to kill everybody in that car except the African who was there, but unfortunately the way they were doing these things they could - it shows they were trained people, more especially the two of them, the whites. That's the people I had my focus on, but they were so fortunate that they escaped. We didn't have a problem with the African, the third one was there, we got him there. There was no chance for him to survive, because that would be a clear betrayal. If we would let him live whereas we went there for a operation. That will mean taking our struggle two steps backwards. MR MBANDAZAYO Can you tell the Committee when you arrived at this person who was there, was he injured or was he still nothing happened to him, he was okay? MR GQOMFA I assumed that he was injured. He had some bullets, some bullets striked him, because he was outside the car, he was out of the car. He was sitting down outside the car, out of the car. MR MBANDAZAYO Can you for the benefit ...(inaudible) or was he laying down? Can you just explain to the Committee? MR GQOMFA As the car was facing the Sterkspruit direction, this African was just across the road just between the transport and the fence, he was in a sitting position, he was sitting on his buttocks facing the car, because as we were approaching him he was looking at us, he was facing us. MR MBANDAZAYO Okay, can you tell the Committee what was holding him there to sitting there, was there somebody there, with him, or not? MR GQOMFA I'm not sure whether he was injured or not, but there was another African who was there, then Comrade Ben, the one who was pointing a gun at him, because when we saw him sitting down there he was with Ben pointing him with a gun. MR MBANDAZAYO ...(inaudible) did not shoot him? He was just pointing him with a firearm? MR GQOMFA We could see his problem. Firstly he was not yet militarily trained, he was not yet used to the firearms and maybe as he was still fiddling with the gun, with the weapon. He didn't even know how to use it, maybe the cassette from the firearm fell. He was not in a position to shoot him at the time. MR PRIOR The interpretation was cassette, do they actually mean magazine? MR GQOMFA Yes sir, I'm referring to the magazine. MR MBANDAZAYO Now, the last paragraph of 12,. "After finishing we petrol-bombed the car with all it's contents, then we left the scene". Can you tell the Committee what was the reason for you petrol-bombing the car? MR GQOMFA Let me put it this way - can the speaker please repeat the first part of the answer? As there was a plenary session at Umtata for members of the High Command, we were told that we should make sure that our operations are different from those of criminals. That is why we decided to burn the car - it was not part and parcel of the plan that we should take their cars, but we were after there lives as they knew the nature of our battle from long ago, from the time of our ancestors. They knew that the enemy was powerful. That is why we were forced to take over in the battle, because our great grandparents were defeated. It is because their firearms were so powerful and there's were outdated. Irrespective of how armed are you, there is nothing that you cannot take away from the nation, it's the power to go on. The fire to go on in your battle, you can take the firearms, but you can not take the fire, the burning spirit from the person to go on, the fire. MR PRIOR Sorry, you still haven't told us why you burned the car. It's is not clear to me at any rate. MR GQOMFA I think I've explained that. I said, it was necessary that our operation should be different from the pure criminal operations. MR PRIOR But you could have left the car there and not taken it. Why was it necessary to burn it, that's what I'm trying to understand? You didn't have to steal it, but that would have shown that you weren't stealing anything. Why did you have to burn it, that's what I'm trying to understand? MR GQOMFA You mean you don't get my reason? MR PRIOR I wouldn't be asking you if I did? So I really don't understand. You didn't have to steal the car, you didn't have to steal anything, you wouldn't have been seen as criminals, that's what you said. You wanted to distinguish between yourselves and criminals? MR GQOMFA Yes. MR PRIOR So, where does the fire come into it - why did you have to burn the car? MR GQOMFA I said to you white man, the directive that we got is that our operation should be unique, it should be different from purely a criminal, therefor if we involved the element of fire - and another thing is this, as we are fighting the powerful enemy as I have already referred you to the history of our great grandparents. If the nation can make fire it's automatically obvious that nation can liberate the country. That's why we decided to destroy everything that belongs to them. MR PRIOR ...(inaudible) you said that you were powerful by using fire and burning the vehicle and so on. No, I just understand now, it's fine. MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Chairman I will proceed to paragraph 13, "On coming over the bridge we drove almost 2 - 3 kilometres from the bridge and abandoned the car undamaged with it's keys. Then we went to our RV for briefing and we handed the arms to Letlapa and went back to our respective places of residence as I was residing in Jozannas". Now can you explain the to Committee where was your RV, please, where you had your briefing? MR GQOMFA Let me put it this way, when you are talking about the RV, are you referring to our meeting place? MR MBANDAZAYO Okay. MR GQOMFA After we had finished, after we had accomplished your mission we went back driving in a car. We abandoned the car on the other side of the bridge. We went to the bus-stop, that's where we were waiting for the car. We had out debriefing there, because even this other Comrade was there because we were staying at different places. MR MBANDAZAYO Mr, Chairman, last point at paragraph 14, "The transport we were using as a getaway car was a bottle-green Datsun 1600. In this attack one person died. The Commander of this operation was Letlapa." Can you explain the transport you were using as a getaway car was a bottle-green Datsun. What do you mean by that? Did you have a getaway car? Can you explain this paragraph to the Committee, paragraph 14? MR GQOMFA It is like this, when we left the scene of the operation we moved to the bus-stop where we were going to meet. The other Comrades that I was not staying with, they were going to take the firearms with them. As I was staying alone I would take a taxi, that's why I am referring to a getaway car. MR LAX That's the same car you referred to earlier in your evidence that took you to the place where you obtained the vehicle that you then drove to the bridge, is that right? CHAIRPERSON Who was driving it? MR GQOMFA There was a Comrade called KK, Oupa, I don't know his other name. It's not Xhosa, Mr Chairman. MR LAX ...(inaudible) Khotle, who we've heard about in other matters? MR GQOMFA It's not Xhosa. It's not Khotle, it's Oupa KK. MR MBANDAZAYO Mr Gqomfa, what else do you want to tell this Committee? Anything that you have left out regarding this incident, what happened during this operation? Is there anything maybe you have left out, you want to mention it to the Committee? MR GQOMFA There's one thing I would like to clarify concerning this operation. I'm sure everybody knows the way we were oppressed as a nation, more especially the Africans. There are many things that took place, more especially the Africans at large, things that were ...(indistinct) by the Government of the day. If people can remember there were even laws that were passed where the Africans would be placed in the reserved areas, the remote areas. With the aim of surplus labour for the farmers and the other industries that were in there. And another purpose was to make sure that they subsidise the wages of the migrant workers. In order for them to control the influx of the Africans, as they made the Africans strangers in their own land, they were saying that the Africans cannot stay in this land because the land was too hot and they cannot go the Heaven, because Heaven is too far also. The industrial areas called BIC or RIC were established, Border Industrial Corporations or Reserved Industrial Corporations. There was a law that was passed that a white man will always be a manager and a black man will work under him, but when you look at this thing, this person was actually managing the oppression of the Africans, because the Africans, the aim was to keep the Africans away. We were doing those operations, my political understanding is that we were doing those operations due to those reasons, those factors. Concerning the families of the deceased, it would be painful if they are not here today. I sympathise with them because of such actions, because when a person dies, it's quite a big thing, and we know that it's very easy to destroy a life of a person. It's very difficult to bring the life of a person back. I would request the gentleman to pass that message to the families, the mother and the children and the relatives. I shall end there. MR MBANDAZAYO That is all, Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON Mr Prior? CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR PRIOR Thank you, Mr Chairman. Are you saying - I hear you saying now at the time that you killed Mr Smit there near the Mayaphuti Bridge that you have the same feelings for him, or did you have no feeling for him at that time - I just want to get this clear in my mind - at the time that you killed him, did you have those same feelings, but you were just carrying out our instructions, or did you have no feeling for him because of your political objectives, beliefs and your ideologies? MR GQOMFA I'm detecting from the principal ...(inaudible), but I'm also a person and all the cadres are also people. I'm passing this message as a human-being. MR PRIOR At the time that you fired into his body with your R5, while he was sitting there, did you feel, well, look he's also a human-being, I sympathise with them, but I'm doing my job as a soldier, or did you have no feeling for the man when you shot him through the body? I'm trying to understand where you're coming from. MR GQOMFA Where I'm coming from, how? MR PRIOR What was in your mind, what was going through your mind at the time that you shot this man? He was sitting there in front of you, he couldn't go anywhere. MR GQOMFA Let me put it this way. My feeling was that I was very angry. How? First of all, is that the two people survived. If they can lead - I'm an African, my life had no value in this country. Anyway, that today, as an African, my life is in their destiny. What I had at that time, is what I'm telling you. That's what happened at that time. MR LAX Sorry, we're having great difficulty hearing the translation. There's a lot of feedback. Solly, I see you at the back there trying to sort something out. The feedback is really quite difficult to hear what the translator is saying. Just talk please translators, let's just hear you say a few words. TRANSLATOR Can you hear me now? MR PRIOR Thank you, Mr Chairman. I just want to know at that time, were you simply carrying out the orders of Letlapa Mphahlele when you shot this man sitting on the ground, or did you do so because you wanted to kill him, as a white man you saw him as the enemy, you had hatred towards him, you had no respect for him? That's what I am trying to distinguish - were you simply carrying out an order, or are you saying because of your political beliefs or feelings towards the white oppressor, those were the reason why you shot and killed him. Do you understand what I'm driving at? MR GQOMFA ...(no English translation). MR PRIOR It's between the two choices I'm giving you. MR GQOMFA I ...(indistinct) problem about this white which you are using, but let my try and accommodate you as you understand the way you do. Firstly, there is a difference between hatred, killing a person because you hate him, because we hate him as he is. There's also a difference when you kill a person because you associate him and at the same time he takes part in the situation at the time. When I explain it further about your question whether a white, we were not killing this person because we hated him as a white person per se because the nature of our struggle was not a racial struggle, but the orientation of whites is that because they were the ones who were killed, they thought that it was a racial struggle, because we didn't define in any ...(indistinct) because her or his colour as it is written in our books that you do not hate the "sjambok", but you hate the man who is using it. You can't say that you are hating the "sjambok", not the person who is using the "sjambok", because if the "sjambok" is just laying down there, it is harmless, but the source of pain is the person who takes that "sjambok" and hits you with it. On the question of obeying orders, in each and every operation - I'm sure Mr Lax is aware of this, because it seems as if he has a military background - that in each and every operation there should be an order. An element of order was there and also an element of commitment. MR PRIOR Finished? MR GQOMFA Yes, I'm finished. MR PRIOR He was killed, Mr Smit was killed, are you saying because he represented the oppressor, or what the oppressor stood for, or is that not close? You say you never killed him because he was just a white man, you killed him because of something else, was he part of - did he represent the oppressor to you in that situation? MR GQOMFA Mr Chairperson, let us put it this way, I would like you to follow me in all these angles. I've given you the political background and the historical background, that firstly, politically, how was this person a victim, that he was the manager of the unjust laws. MR PRIOR Alright, he was the manager of unjust laws. MR GQOMFA Of unjust laws. I'll go back, I think I have explained that when you take this back from the forced removals when the land was taken from the Africans by people like you at the time, we were taken as people who did not belong here. We were Bantu's and we were taken to the Bantu areas or the so-called reserved areas. This South Africa was for the whites. Even if you stayed twenty or thirty years, or you were born in that area, you did not belong there. If you were Xhosa speaker you would go to Transkei or Ciskei, if you were Sotho speaker, you were taken to Qwa-Qwa. What happened is that the whites tried that they were - there was a competition at the time of black unskilled labourers, because they were also unskilled labourers. But because the capitalists who were building the factories, they found out that the pressure that was exerted by whites because these people were supposed to be given high wages, because of their status - there is something that they call the colour-bar. They say "my kleur is my val" - that my colour is my status. The African whether he is qualified, he will remain a Kaffir. They said that these people had to be taken to the reserved areas so that they cannot come to South Africa, so that they can build industries in the areas that these people are staying, or near to them, because there would be a surplus of a work force and they would get low wages. That is an exploitation, because the capitalist was more interested in profit. A white man was supposed to be in a managerial position. Even when a black person is educated, but a white man would be a manger. When I am saying that they were administering the unjust laws, they were administering the influx laws. The question would come now, that at the time the apartheid law was crashed, the law was crashed in the books, but practically it was not removed. As the Africans were not fighting against apartheid per se, but were fighting against our land for the whole nation. I don't know whether you understand it. On a military point view, the time I was killing these people, these people were trained personnel, even though before the operation I did not have their profile, because it was not part and parcel of the recognisance of the target. MR PRIOR At the time Mr Smit was killed, for the reasons you have now given ...(intervention) MR GQOMFA Yes. MR PRIOR You say although you never saw the profile of the people in that car, you accept that your superiors who had done the intelligence work would have had that profile that Mr Smit and his colleagues in that vehicle were all militarily trained, is that what you're telling us? MR GQOMFA No, don't misinterpret me. MR PRIOR Are you saying you accepted that Mr Smit and the other occupants of that vehicle, the white people there, were all militarily trained? MR GQOMFA When you say all of them, how many were there? MR PRIOR Four, and one was an African man - a black man. So we're excluding him, because you excluded him. The three other occupants, the white people that were in that vehicle, are you saying you accepted that they were militarily trained? MR GQOMFA I'm saying that before I did not know that they were trained, but at the time we were shooting ...(intervention) MR PRIOR Do you accept in you mind, although you never knew the detail of their profile, did you assume, did you accept that they must have been militarily trained? MR GQOMFA I don't understand your question. MR PRIOR I don't know how other to put it, Mr Chairman. Maybe the Committee can assist. ADV SANDI Okay let me, can I come in then? Mr Gqomfa, did you personally know these people who were in the car, these white people? MR GQOMFA No, I did not know them. ADV SANDI Did anyone say to you he knew those people, that is before you went to this operation? MR GQOMFA No. ADV SANDI You had no information whatsoever about these people, is that correct? MR GQOMFA Yes. ADV SANDI Does that answer you, Mr Prior? MR LAX It doesn't answer what Mr Prior was putting to him, and he himself in his earlier answer implied that the people who were his Commanders in the attack and who had done the reconnaissance would have been aware, that's how he put it, they would have been aware of the profile of these people, and that they were militarily trained, that's how he put it. So, that's why Mr Prior asked him did he know that that was their profile - he said "no". The next logical question was, did you assume that they were militarily trained, and that's the answer we're waiting for. MR PRIOR Thank you, Mr Chairman. MR LAX Have I put it correctly, Mr Prior. MR PRIOR Yes, precisely. MR GQOMFA Don't put words in my mouth. MR LAX Mr Gqomfa well then help us, if you think, if you say we're trying to put words in your mouth, put the position correctly. MR GQOMFA I'm saying that I did not know the profile of these people. What I was telling you was my understanding. Before the operation I was not given the background of these people, and as I have already said, I was not part of the reconnaissance of the target, but when I was shooting them at that time it was when I took a conclusion that these people were trained because of the way they were manoeuvring from the fire that was directed to them. MR PRIOR Well, on your version as you've put out in your amnesty application, and your affidavit, and the affidavits of the occupants of the vehicle that survived, it seems to me that these people at some stage just got out of the vehicle and started to run away, isn't that the position? Getting away from the danger, the shooting, is that correct? MR GQOMFA Where is the difference to what I've just said? MR PRIOR Alright. It would seem from the photographs Mr Smit had at some stage been shot at the back of the calf, at the back of the leg - I think if you look at photograph, in bundle "B", photograph 47. Do you see that? MR GQOMFA Yes. MR PRIOR If you turn to photograph 10, that is the vehicle in which he was a passenger and where the people in the foreground are foraging in the veld according to they key, which you've agreed to, that is the position in which they found Mr Smit's body after he had been killed. CHAIRPERSON Not where they're foraging, Mr Prior. They found the body didn't they, as I understand, at point "G". Where they are foraging, is where they found five 5.56 cartridges - that's at "H". MR PRIOR Yes, Mr Chairman, if you'll just give me a moment. Sorry, I'm looking at the wrong photo. Sorry, I can't make out point "G". Oh yes, sorry, that's the person on the right-hand side ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON Yes, sitting. MR PRIOR Yes, within a metre or two. CHAIRPERSON The three foragings where they found a number, not just one, where they found five cartridge cases. MR PRIOR Yes. That's 5.56. Yes, thank you for clearing that up, I was a bit - I couldn't see point "G" for a moment, I now see it. Please look at photograph 10. I want to just try and sketch the position to you, can you see there are three people together, close together and somewhat to the right-hand side there's a single person, or solitary person sort of crouching down? That point has been given as "G", where the body was found of Mr Smith. And where these three people are, that point has been marked "H". The Police found five 5.65 cartridges in that position. Did you shoot Mr Smith at least five times from that position, or near that position? MR GQOMFA I don't know how many cartridges, I did not count. MR PRIOR MR GQOMFA Yes. MR PRIOR Well then tell us in your own recall ...(intervention) MR LAX Before you ask him to do that, isn't it worthwhile finding out where he was on this photograph first and where he shot from, and then we'll move to the next phase, which is the killing of Mr Smit. MR PRIOR Thank you, Mr Chairman. Can you possibly just assist us and put yourself on the scene, where you were when you shot Mr Smit with your R5? MR GQOMFA I would not be sure, but it's between "G" and the Police transport. I can just estimate, though I'm not sure that when we first shot we were in that position. MR PRIOR Is that the Police vehicle that one sees on the extreme right-hand side of the photograph? MR GQOMFA Yes. MR PRIOR That's when you first shot at him? MR GQOMFA Not at him. I was standing in that position. MR PRIOR The people were in your way, or fleeing the scene? MR GQOMFA This is like this, when we first shooting, I was in this other side. I was shooting the car and the people when they were coming out of the car, when they were running out of the car I was running after them. MR PRIOR And you were firing at them? MR GQOMFA Yes, I was shooting. MR PRIOR And there were three of them that alighted from the car? MR GQOMFA Yes. MR PRIOR That was two white men and one black man? MR GQOMFA Yes. MR PRIOR Because in your affidavit you say, "Three of the occupants climbed out of the car and ran away. One did not survive. When we came close to this target, we found this person." I'll come back to that. So, at this stage the three people jumped out of the car, you shot in their direction? MR GQOMFA Yes. MR PRIOR Were you aiming at anyone in particular? MR GQOMFA I was facing the people who were manoeuvring. MR PRIOR Were they moving from side to side as they were running away? When you say manoeuvring, what do you mean by that? MR GQOMFA When they got out of the car, one of them got out and he was bread-falling and he met another one. I didn't see them when they were crossing the fence, jumping over the fence, but I saw them while they were on the other side of the fence, but at the distance they then ran away. MR LAX You indicated with your fingers - which direction did they run in? They came from where the car is - in which direction did they go? MR GQOMFA In the direction of the four people here. MR LAX So they ran in the direction of the person who would be taking this photograph? MR GQOMFA Yes. MR LAX And then, is there a whole lot of veld on this side, presumably there's a fence, you said there was some sort of fence? MR GQOMFA Yes, there was a fence. MR LAX At this point in time, you were standing somewhere on the other side of the road. You said somewhere midway between the point "G" and that Police vehicle you can see, is that right? MR GQOMFA Yes. MR LAX I notice there's a gate entrance near where the Police vehicle is. Would it be somewhere near that? MR GQOMFA No, I didn't see a gate. MR LAX How far would you estimate that point from the burned out vehicle to the Police vehicle, approximately? MR GQOMFA I cannot estimate, because I didn't think that I would come here and I would be required to estimate the distance. MR LAX Well, I'll estimate it for you. It looks no more than 30 or 40 metres. Have a look at the photograph. Maybe 50 at the most. MR GQOMFA I cant' be sure. MR LAX We're just trying to get a sense of where you were standing then, but you were on the other side of the road, anyway? MR GQOMFA Yes. MR PRIOR May I be of some assistance, Mr Chairman. In terms of bundle "B" at page - on the second page, page 2 of bundle "B", there's a measurement which says "from the burned out motor vehicle to the furthest cartridges". If one looks at photograph one, I think the further cartridge is marked exhibit - at "Z", that whole area, the distance is 1,76 metres. That may just give an idea the distance over which the incidence took place. Can I move on, Mr Chairman. Mr Gqomfa, let me just try and understand, from the time that you started firing at this vehicle, had the vehicle got past your position, in other words, were you firing at it as it was moving away from you? MR GQOMFA No, we were firing as it was passing. MR PRIOR And then you continued firing at it until it came to a standstill? MR GQOMFA Yes. MR PRIOR Did you then move from your position closer to the vehicle? MR GQOMFA Yes, we moved when I changed my magazine. MR PRIOR And were you firing - did you continue to fire as you were moving forward? MR GQOMFA Yes. MR PRIOR I'm just trying to understand you. Then people got out of the car, three people on your version, got out of the vehicle and then moved towards the fence and got through the fence, and ran away, is that correct? MR GQOMFA Yes. MR PRIOR And you fired shots in their direction? MR GQOMFA Yes. MR PRIOR Were you aiming at anyone in particular? MR GQOMFA These people, the whites were apart from the African ...(intervention) MR PRIOR You weren't shooting at the black man, you were shooting at the other two? MR GQOMFA I was shooting at them. MR PRIOR Were you shooting out of the hip, or not aiming in particular at any specific point, or just shooting in their general direction - I'm just trying to establish that - as you were moving forward? Or did you stop, take aim and fire in their direction? MR GQOMFA I don't understand your question. MR PRIOR From what I understand, as you were moving forward, you changed your magazine, people were running away from the car that had come to a standstill. Did you continue -you said the black man was apart from the two white people, and you shot in their direction. Did you simply take aim at them as they were running, or did you just fire in their general direction, without particularly aiming at anyone specifically? MR GQOMFA Let me put it this way. It's not that I was aiming, because I could not aim at that position, I was changing a position. I was either in a hip or shoulder position. I was shooting as I was moving. MR PRIOR Then you came up to the motor vehicle, is that correct? MR GQOMFA Yes. MR PRIOR Did you find the deceased, Mr Smith, that's the man who was eventually shot, was he still in the vehicle? MR GQOMFA No, he was outside the vehicle. MR PRIOR Do you know how he got out the vehicle? MR GQOMFA No, I don't know, because two people came out of the other side if I'm not mistaken, or it was one person, I'm not sure. MR PRIOR When you saw him for the first time, or when you got close to him, was he in the position "G" on photograph 10, that is where the Policeman, or the person is crouching to the right of the photograph? Or was he closer to the car when you first saw him? If you can indicate to us and be of assistance, can you maybe mark on photograph 10 on your copy, where you found the deceased, or Mr Smit - I'm referring to him by that name, because he's the person that died - in relation to the burned out car. Are you able to do so? MR GQOMFA I cannot be sure of the specific place, but he was on the left side of the car. MR PRIOR So as far as where the people are looking in the grass, or was he a bit closer to the vehicle? MR GQOMFA That would be difficult, because things were happening in a split second, so I cannot be sure. MR PRIOR When you got to him, you said Ben, one of your Comrades, was standing with him, or near him, pointing a fire-arm at him. MR GQOMFA Yes. MR PRIOR Where was Mr Letlapa Mphahlele? MR GQOMFA As I've already said, he was on the left side. He was a distance from them. He then came at the time when we were with this white man. MR PRIOR Mr Smit was sitting in a sitting position, is that right? MR GQOMFA Yes. MR PRIOR He was breathing, obviously, he was alive. MR GQOMFA Yes. MR PRIOR Did you speak to him, did you say anything to him? MR GQOMFA No, because I was not there to speak to him. MR PRIOR So, you never spoke to him. Did Ben or Mr Letlapa Mphahlele speak to him at all? MR GQOMFA I don't know why they would speak to him. MR PRIOR Mr Smit, the deceased, did he speak at all? MR GQOMFA I don't know whether he spoke, because I was not interested in what he was saying. MR PRIOR We're finding out, or trying to find out because we weren't there, was he pleading for his life, asking you not to shoot him, not to kill him? MR GQOMFA Even if he said something, I could not record that because I was not interested in what he was saying. MR PRIOR What were you interested in, if you were not interested in what he was saying? MR GQOMFA I was interested in what I was there to do? MR PRIOR And that was to kill him? MR GQOMFA Yes, that is correct. MR PRIOR Do you agree that in the position that you found him, he must have been injured at that stage, because he couldn't get away from you there? MR GQOMFA It might be so. MR PRIOR Did you see any injury on him, or blood on his clothing that would indicate that to you at that stage? MR GQOMFA No, I didn't notice any blood. MR PRIOR Can you say whether he had his hands up, put his hands up towards you? MR GQOMFA I was not interested in what this white man was doing. MR PRIOR Tell, us, you were there, and we need to know everything that happened there. Did he raise his hands as if to show that he had nothing with him, he was unarmed? Did he, or didn't he? MR GQOMFA I can say that, but I cannot remember clearly, but even if a person is going to be killed, he'd lift his hands. MR PRIOR You could have taken him prisoner, is that right? MR GQOMFA Unfortunately we were not to take any prisoners. MR PRIOR Who told you that, and when was that said to you? MR GQOMFA I'm sure that in the history of PAC you did not hear about that. Where would we keep him, because we were not there to take him. Where would we keep him? MR PRIOR Yes, I hear that answer, and the reason why I asked that question is that because we've seen the 15 points of attention that have been brought to our attention by APLA, that have been submitted in many of these hearings, and are you familiar as a trained soldier of APLA, with the 15 points of attention? MR GQOMFA Yes. MR PRIOR Can you tell us what point 14 says, out of your own, or would you like me to read it to you? MR GQOMFA You can read it. MR PRIOR It says "do no ill-treat captives or anyone in your charge". Are you familiar with that point of attention? MR GQOMFA Yes. MR PRIOR ...(inaudible) analyse that, Mr Smit as he was there, he had been shot, or injured, he wasn't going anywhere. You said he may well have had his hands up, in that circumstance was he not your captive or in your charge? MR GQOMFA Are you referring to the 15 points of attention? MR PRIOR ...(inaudible) and you've heard me well on that. MR GQOMFA My answer is that you must look at who wrote the 15 points of attention, under which conditions how are we adopting this, because the 15 points of attention are referring to the people in liberated areas. MR PRIOR Well I don't know what captives the 15 points of attention refer to, but be that as it may, we'll leave it there. How many times did you shoot Mr Smit with your R5 rifle while he was sitting in front of you? MR GQOMFA I could not count because the firearm was in rapid, so I could not count. MR PRIOR And then after you had shot him, did he fall down, was he laying on the ground? MR GQOMFA Yes. MR PRIOR Mr Letlapa Mphahlele then came with the .38 special revolver, is that right? MR GQOMFA Yes. MR PRIOR ...(inaudible) his head? MR GQOMFA Yes. MR PRIOR In the back of the neck or the front of the head? MR GQOMFA It was in the head. MR PRIOR At very close rang? MR GQOMFA Yes, it was in a close range, because this white man was sitting here and while I was shooting him he was sitting right here. MR PRIOR I want to establish, after you had shot him, did he fall over, or was he still sitting when Mr Letlapa Mphahlele shot him in the head? MR GQOMFA He fell. MR PRIOR Was he still alive at that stage, or was he dead, or was he moving, or what? What was the position? MR GQOMFA I'm not sure that he would have been alive at that time. MR PRIOR Do you know why Mr Letlapa Mphahlele took his revolver and shot him in the head at that time, do you know why? Did you know why he did that? MR GQOMFA No, I don't know the reason. MR PRIOR When you were satisfied that he was dead, you then burned out the vehicle, is that right? MR GQOMFA Yes, that's right. CHAIRPERSON You didn't want to shoot him, did you? MR GQOMFA How, Mr Chairperson? CHAIRPERSON I'm asking you, is it true that you didn't want to shoot him, or did you want to shoot him? MR GQOMFA I can't say I did not want to shoot him, because I've already shot at the others. CHAIRPERSON I'm reading from your own application for amnesty, do you remember what you said there? MR GQOMFA Yes. CHAIRPERSON Page 11, this is a traumatic part to myself "We found this guy sitting. Letlapa asked us why it seems as if we do not want to kill these people. I was ordered to shoot him. As the first clause in APLA code of conduct states, obey orders in all your actions. Honourable Commissioners, I regret to say that I shot the person and Letlapa finished him with a 38 pistol, shooting him in the head." Is that true so far? MR GQOMFA Yes. CHAIRPERSON You say here, "I regret to say that I shot the person", did you regret it? MR GQOMFA Yes, as I've already said that if you kill a person, you do have feeling, but you have killed a person. CHAIRPERSON Would you say that you're being a pacifist and this act, you had to do it, as you had no alternative as the situation prevailed at that time. If you did not, you hope anything would have been possible. MR GQOMFA Yes. CHAIRPERSON But you are making the case there that you were unwilling to do what you did, but you were ordered to do so. MR GQOMFA That is your own interpretation, but I don't think I was sending that message. MR PRIOR Well, what did you try and tell us when you wrote those words in this application? What were you trying to say to us? MR GQOMFA Everybody if you kill a person you do have that feeling that you have killed a person. And firstly the thing that we have killed people, we were not born as killers, but the oppressors forced us to do these acts and all of us, the Africans, we are a very peaceful nation. But these people forced us and we ended up being killers. When I'm saying that the consequence, I'm referring to the fact that this thing will torment me for the rest of my life, because I would have betrayed my conscience and my protocol confession. MR PRIOR Thank you Mr Chairman. When the vehicle went past you did you notice that there was a black man, black person, in the rear of the vehicle in the passenger, rear seat passenger? MR GQOMFA No, I did not notice. MR PRIOR You noticed that when he alighted from the vehicle and was running away? MR GQOMFA Yes. MR PRIOR You never shot at him? MR GQOMFA No. MR PRIOR We know now that Mr Smit worked at Frasers at that time, it now became Score Furnishers, but he was the manager of the furniture store in Sterkspruit and the other two gentlemen were also working there, Mr Franzsen and Mr Maartens. Mr Franzsen also worked at the furniture's and Mr Ben Maliehe was also working at the furniture's. You never knew that? MR GQOMFA No. MR PRIOR Sorry, just before that, before that incident when you shot at the Corolla 16 valve, I seem to recall you saying there were other vehicles that had - one vehicle or more vehicles had gone past before the shooting had occurred. Is that correct? MR GQOMFA I think there were cars, if I remember well. MR PRIOR Do you know why these cars weren't attacked or shot at? MR GQOMFA No I don't know. MR PRIOR And can you help us, were these cars driven by white people or black people, or can't you say? MR GQOMFA What I'm trying to say it that there was not much hope to look at the cars or who was driving the car. MR PRIOR You said that you were staying at Jozannas Hoek is that right - at the time of this operation? MR GQOMFA Jozannas Neck. MR PRIOR In who's house were you staying at? MR GQOMFA I was staying alone, there was no one else. I was doing everything for myself. MR PRIOR Where there no other members of APLA at that house? MR GQOMFA No. MR PRIOR And Ben, where was he staying at that time? MR GQOMFA I don't know were they were staying, because I was placed in that area. I don't know were they were staying. MR PRIOR Can I just ask you this question? Did you ever go to Johannas Hoek - Jozannas Hoek, sorry, during that period, that is March of '92? MR GQOMFA I did not go to Jozannas Hoek. My instruction was that, when I was going out, I was going out following the instructions. MR PRIOR So, you've said to us that you were staying alone at this house, at Jozannas Neck, but you still haven't answered the question about whose house it was. Whose house was it that you were staying in - whose woozy or kraal or whatever? MR GQOMFA I said that I was placed in that house, there was no one there when I got there. It was one house. MR PRIOR So, you don't know who owned that house? MR GQOMFA No, I don't know the owner. I was not interested in knowing the owner of the house. MR PRIOR Who pointed out that place for you to stay at? MR GQOMFA Comrade Mphahlele. MR PRIOR That was the only operation you carried out in that area, Sterkspruit-Zastron area? MR GQOMFA Yes, that was the only operation, except for the farm. MR PRIOR I just want to - did you have any knowledge at that time that there was a unit in Jozannas Hoek? We heard evidence last week and earlier on that Martin Phila Dolo had a unit in Jozannas Hoek. Were you aware that close by to you there was a APLA unit? MR GQOMFA This is like this, I did not know that, but I knew that there were Africans around that area. MR PRIOR You were just deployed, it would seem to me from your evidence, for this one operation, and you were given the R5 rifle. Were you particularly expert with that weapon? MR GQOMFA As I've already said one African, his rule was to drive. He was not trained to use a weapon. The other Comrade was internally trained. I was given an R5 because I was familiar with it, because I was coming from outside. MR PRIOR I just want to know I maybe used the wrong word "expert", but were you fairly competent at using that R5 rifle? I mean were you able to shoot accurately, was that - I mean there must have been a reason why Mr Letlapa gave you the R5, and not anyone else. MR GQOMFA The reason is what I've already told you, that one Comrade was internally trained. As I was familiar, because I was coming from outside, maybe that was the reason for them to give me this weapon because it was a powerful weapon. MR PRIOR Can you tell us what your code-name was, or your chimirenga name was? Sorry, we didn't hear the interpretation. Please repeat what your chimirenga name was. MR GQOMFA Mtami. MR PRIOR Thank you. ADV SANDI Did you have any other code-name, Mr Gqomfa? MR GQOMFA There were a lot of names, some would call me Bruce, Zuko. MR PRIOR ...(inaudible) Bruce and Zuko, those were other ones you mentioned. What else, any others? MR GQOMFA That's all. MR PRIOR I want to put to you finally as a proposition, that you had successfully launched this attack, this operation. You had managed to shoot up the vehicle, could have still burned the vehicle, you had injured Mr Smit. I want to suggest to you that you could have made the same political statement by leaving him alive that by killing him, because he could have conveyed the message to those authorities, to the people that - the political party to which he belonged. Do you agree with that, he could have given a more powerful message to them having survived this attack than being killed, as you killed him? In other words, I'm suggesting to you that you had an alternative, you had an option open to you, and it wasn't necessary to kill this person to achieve your political objective. MR GQOMFA Would you like me to answer? MR PRIOR Do you agree with that, or don't you agree? You can say yes or no, I don't need a long discussion about whatever. Do you agree with that, or don't you agree? MR GQOMFA I don't agree with that. MR PRIOR I've no further questions, Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON Re-examination? MR MBANDAZAYO None, Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Is that the applicant's case? MR MBANDAZAYO Correct, Mr Chairman. MR PRIOR Mr Chairman, as I've indicated to you, I only have one witness to call, that's Mr Franzsen. CHAIRPERSON I think that I should make it clear that on each occasion when I have said today, "is that the applicant's case" and the applicant's attorney has agreed, it is subject to the reservation that if the further information becomes available, he will be entitled to re-open this case. MR MBANDAZAYO Thank you, Mr Chairman. MR PRIOR Mr Chairman, may I likewise indicate that this matter also falls within the same areas as the broader allegation which has been investigated, and should anything be forthcoming, it would be presented. CHAIRPERSON It will be dealt with in the same way. It does appear that although we had what was treated as separate matters last week, it may well be that the same principle is involved in all of them. MR PRIOR Thank you, Mr Chairman. I call Mr Franzsen. Would he come forward please. Mr Andrew Lategan Franzsen. MR FRANZSEN (Duly sworn in) MR PRIOR Mr Franzsen is it correct that in March of 1992 you were employed at Frasers Furnitures in Sterkspruit and you were employed as a Credit Manager? MR FRANZSEN That is correct, yes. MR PRIOR On the 18th of March 1992 it is common cause that whilst you were driving in a motor vehicle, or were you a passenger, in a motor vehicle being driven by, is it Mr Maarten? MR FRANZSEN That's correct. MR PRIOR Together with Mr Fanie Smit, the deceased, and one Ben Maliehe. There was - your vehicle was shot at near the Mayaphuti crossing, that's about 30 kilometres from Zastron? MR FRANZSEN That's correct, yes. MR PRIOR Is it correct, as a result of that incident you made a statement to the Police at Zastron on the 18th of March 1992? MR FRANZSEN That's also true. MR PRIOR That statement was made in Afrikaans, is that correct? MR FRANZSEN That's correct, yes. MR PRIOR And signed by yourself? MR FRANZSEN Yes. MR PRIOR You read the statement again this morning, is that correct? MR FRANZSEN Yes, that's 100% correct yes. MR PRIOR And do you confirm the contents of that affidavit? MR FRANZSEN I confirm the contents, yes. MR PRIOR And you adhere to the contents of that affidavit? MR FRANZSEN That's correct, yes. MR PRIOR You've now listened to the application of Mr Gqomfa in this matter, you followed the evidence that he has given. Is there anything that you wish to say, or any remarks or comments you wish to add to, or to say in respect of what he has told this Committee, regarding the incident that has ...(intervention) MR FRANZSEN Well, what I can say is, if we also had the same weapons to defend ourselves, then I think it should have been a different ball-game, but that was not the case at that time, and I can only say we were very shocked and devastated by what had happened on that specific day. MR PRIOR Were you armed at all on that day? MR FRANZSEN Not at all. We were not allowed to take weapons into Sterkspruit, and we were not allowed to, as were the Company policies, to take weapons into the stores. MR PRIOR Can you say whether this was known generally in the area, or not? MR FRANZSEN It was not known in the area, no, because of special permits that you were supposed to have from the Sterkspruit Government. MR PRIOR So, in other words, if you had carried a firearm, you'd have to get a special permit at that time from the Transkei Government? MR FRANZSEN That's correct. MR PRIOR And the Police at that time? MR FRANZSEN That's correct. Afterwards we applied for those after this incident happened, but we never knew about it before the time. MR PRIOR As far as the shooting is concerned, can you maybe just take us through that incident, as best you can, from the time that you were aware that you were being shot at? MR FRANZSEN Okay. Okay, right, what happened was that we were on our way to Sterkspruit. We were approaching this junction where, Mayaphuti junction, and then we - from the position I was sitting, I saw the two people at the Mayaphuti junction, and as we went past, I just heard the gunshots and I ducked down below - onto the seat. And then from - I could hear there was something wrong with the vehicle ...(intervention) MR PRIOR Just stop there. You were sitting in the rear of the vehicle? MR FRANZSEN Yes, behind the driver, yes. MR PRIOR And Mr Ben Maliehe was sitting? MR FRANZSEN Next to me, on the left-hand side. MR PRIOR On the left-hand side, and where did the shooting come from, the left or the right of the vehicle? MR FRANZSEN From the right-hand side. MR PRIOR Please continue. MR FRANZSEN Okay. And then from there we were - I just heard they said that we went through a Police blockade. MR PRIOR Sorry, who said that? MR FRANZSEN That was the driver, Mr Maarten. And then we - as I said, well, we'll have to keep on. He said to us that he can't, he can't go further, the car's engine has been shot, and we pulled over behind the bakkie that was parked about 400 metres from the junction, on the left-hand side of the road. MR PRIOR Just stop there, I want to show you a photograph. Mr Chairman, I refer to bundle "B", photograph 37. Can you say whether that was the vehicle, or a similar-looking vehicle? MR FRANZSEN Yes, that was the vehicle, but I can't remember the railings on the back of the bakkie. MR PRIOR So it was a bakkie type? MR FRANZSEN It was a bakkie, and it was a CAC registration number. I couldn't remember the whole of the registration number, but it was a CAC. MR PRIOR In paragraph 4 of your affidavit to the Police which appears at page 26 of bundle "A", you said that you fell flat on the seat. Mr Marten reduced speed. You said something that you thought it was a Police roadblock. You said because you saw one black man in a Police uniform, it was like a camouflage type uniform. MR LAX It's field dress, not camouflage. MR PRIOR I beg your pardon "velddrag". Can you maybe just expand on that? MR FRANZSEN Yes, we were - as we went past we saw that one of the people were dressed in the field dress of the SA Police. MR PRIOR SA Police, or? MR FRANZSEN SA Police, yes. It was the same - similar type of dress that they were using. That was to, as we were thinking afterwards, it was to confuse us, that ...(intervention) MR PRIOR Did Mr Maarten actually slow down? MR FRANZSEN He slowed down, yes. He actually left some marks on the road, some skidmarks as he hit the brakes? MR PRIOR And then? MR FRANZSEN And then we just moved up to the - where the car went slower, and we moved off the road on the right-hand side, and then I was looking to the back to see what was going on, and I saw the two people coming - running towards the vehicle from the bottom side, from the junction. MR PRIOR Can you say whether anymore shooting occurred whilst these two people were running towards you? MR FRANZSEN There were more shooting, yes, as they were running towards the vehicle. As I was looking in front of me, I saw the one black man in front of the car, standing right in the front of the - at the bonnet of our vehicle, pointing a 9mm pistol at us, and at that junction I was - I ducked again onto the seat when I heard the shot went off, and that is when Mr Maarten was shot through the finger. And then he said we had better run, we must get out and we must run away. So from there he went out of the car, went around the vehicle, I didn't know he was shot at that point, and then I followed him, left the door open to keep the door between me and the guy with the pistol, so I went on my - on my hands and feet, I went around the vehicle to keep the vehicle between me and the guy that was shooting, and I went for the fence and went over the fence and then we just ran off into the field. As the shots were firing, I was just rolling and going off like we were trained in the Army. MR PRIOR To avoid being shot? MR FRANZSEN To avoid being shot. MR PRIOR Do you know what happened to Mr Maliehe? MR FRANZSEN Afterwards, when we - I just saw him behind me, but afterwards we, in the conversation he said he thought, okay the same thing is going to happen to him, he will also have to flee for his life, and then he followed exactly the same as what I did, he did the same thing. MR PRIOR So, in other words, were you aware of him following you in the same direction as you were running away from the scene? MR FRANZSEN Yes, he went in the same direction. MR PRIOR But, was he behind you, or ...(intervention) MR FRANZSEN He was behind me, yes. MR PRIOR When you got away from the scene, did the shooting stop, that was the shooting in your direction? MR FRANZSEN They were shooting until we reached the second fence and we went over the fence, then the ground was going down, so they couldn't see us anymore, and then the shooting stopped. MR PRIOR And did you see Mr Maarten at that stage had an injury? MR FRANZSEN Yes, that was just as we got over the second fence, he was talking to me. He said to me "I've been shot", and I just said to him "keep on going". MR PRIOR Did you notice his injury, can you just tell us? MR FRANZSEN I could see his injury at the back and then as he turned around, I could see it was in the front as well, just below the belt it came out, and he had blood on his shirt. MR PRIOR So you noticed his injury from his back, and had exited just under his belt in the front? MR FRANZSEN In the front, yes. MR PRIOR And you say his finger had been shot? MR FRANZSEN Yes, his finger was shot. MR PRIOR Was it shot off, was it just cut, or what? MR FRANZSEN No, just took off the nervous system and the fingernail from the pinkie and the ...(intervention) MR PRIOR You indicate the left hand. MR FRANZSEN The left hand, yes. MR PRIOR So you say his pinkie - was the top of his pinkie taken off? MR FRANZSEN Yes, the nail part. MR PRIOR The nail and part of his ring finger? MR FRANZSEN Yes, that's correct. MR PRIOR Did - I understand that Mr Maarten, that's Mr Deon Maarten, he subsequently died in a motor accident, can you confirm that? MR FRANZSEN That is correct, yes. MR PRIOR Did you know him? MR FRANZSEN Yes, I knew him well. MR PRIOR How long after this incident did he die? MR FRANZSEN That was about three years after the incident. MR PRIOR I see, just one last aspect on Mr Maarten, did he go - did he receive medical treatment for his injury? MR FRANZSEN Lots of times he was in and out of the hospital having operations on his left hand, and eventually they put off the ring finger. MR PRIOR Did they amputate his finger? MR FRANZSEN Yes, amputated it. MR PRIOR Did you know if Mr Maliehe was injured in any way? MR FRANZSEN No, he was uninjured as I was uninjured. MR PRIOR So you and he were uninjured? MR FRANZSEN Yes, both of us. MR PRIOR Alright, once the shooting had stopped were you able to - did you hear anything further, or were you able to see anything from your position as to what happened to Mr Smit? MR FRANZSEN Yes, as we were carrying on moving away from the scene we went below the dam that was just to the, also to the left of the road and we heard a final shooting going on, and then the car burning. Then we saw the smoke in the window just coming out in the sky. MR PRIOR Were you able to reach help at that stage, did you get to a farmhouse or a farm? MR FRANZSEN No, we were not close to any farm, we were moving in the field and going up to where we could meet the road again. I was actually - we were thinking of going to the farmhouse there, but I said it was too close to the shooting and maybe there's some more members of whoever shot at us - maybe took over the farm and they were hiding there as well waiting for their buddies to come along. MR PRIOR Alright, eventually I take it, you got help and assistance and so forth. MR FRANZSEN Yes, the Police came by and they picked up there. MR PRIOR Are you unable then, as I understand your evidence, to say what precisely happened to Mr Smit? MR FRANZSEN Yes, we actually thought maybe he was thinking for himself to spread the fire, then he went maybe another way. That's what we were thinking at some time till we got back to the scene. MR PRIOR Alright, did you go back to the scene? MR FRANZSEN Yes, the Police took us back to the scene and we were waiting there for the ambulance to arrive. MR PRIOR And did you see Mr Smit there? MR FRANZSEN I could see him lying there, I was - I lost my watch and everything and I was looking for it, so I saw him lying on the grass. MR PRIOR I just - just for completeness sake, I'll show you photograph 10 of bundle "B". Point "G" on photograph 10, is that more or less the position you found Mr Smit? MR FRANZSEN Yes. MR PRIOR And when you had moved out of the vehicle towards the fence, did you move more or less in that direction? MR FRANZSEN More to the corner of where the fence made - had a corner where ...(intervention) MR PRIOR To the left or right of the photograph? MR FRANZSEN Yes, if you look at photograph - there towards the guy sitting on the right-hand side. MR PRIOR So you moved from the back of the vehicle behind the person crouching at point "G"? MR FRANZSEN That's right. MR PRIOR And Mr Smit, was he there at that stage, or not? MR FRANZSEN No, I've got no idea where he was stage ...(intervention) MR PRIOR Or how he got there? MR FRANZSEN No. MR PRIOR Thank you. There's just one last aspect, Mr Franzsen, how long had you been working in Sterkspruit for Frasers? MR FRANZSEN Before or after? MR PRIOR Before this incident. MR PRIOR Before the incident, okay, I started there on the 20th of January '92. MR PRIOR So you had only been there two months, roughly? MR FRANZSEN Yes. MR PRIOR And Mr Smit, do you know how long he had been Manager at Sterkspruit - at the Frasers Furnishers? MR FRANZSEN I think also same as what - I think December '91. MR PRIOR Where you aware at that time of any problems regarding your safety or the people working in Sterkspruit safety, particularly the white people? MR FRANZSEN No, we had no idea what's going to happen there, because everybody at the shop were very friendly and nobody had indicated anything that there is danger, or has pointed out anything out to us there, nothing. MR PRIOR Just generally, a general question, how was the relationship between Frasers - your staff at Frasers and the community there - I want to know was Frasers a well supported business, or was it - did it have difficulties in selling its stock, or what is the position? MR FRANZSEN No, we had no difficulty. It was a very friendly staff, we were very helpful. Our aim was to train these people to uplift them and uplift the standard of these people - to eventually get them into the Management position, because that was the aim of the whole Rusfurn group at that point in time, was to get the people trained. MR PRIOR Are you able to - sorry, so you did have black personnel at that time? MR FRANZSEN Yes, it's only the three white Management that was there to run the show. MR PRIOR And you say Rusfurn at that stage - is that the controlling company? MR FRANZSEN Yes, that was the controlling company. MR PRIOR And their policy was to uplift the black people, particularly in that area, in order for them to take over eventually and run the shop themselves? MR FRANZSEN That's correct, yes. MR PRIOR Thank you, Mr Chairman. ADV SANDI Sorry, Mr Prior, maybe just one important point you may have forgotten to ask him about this. What is you reaction to what you have heard from the applicant today? MR FRANZSEN Sorry, I can't hear you that well. ADV SANDI Did you hear Mr Gqomfa, the applicant, what he had to say today about this matter? MR FRANZSEN Yes, I did hear what he said. ADV SANDI Do you have any reaction that you would like to express in regard to what he said today? MR FRANZSEN No, I've got no knowledge of his side of the story, I just heard what he was saying today, and my opinion was that I think he had also a chance in life to say yes or no, he wants to do this or he wants to do that. CHAIRPERSON Mr Mbandazayo? MR MBANDAZAYO Thank you, Mr Chairman. Just one question, but just before I - just for clarity - just before I ask that, I would like to say to you that accept my sympathy for what you went through during that day, the 18th of March 1992, but just a few - you said to the Committee that if you had similar weapons it would have been a different ball-game. Can you elaborate on that? MR FRANZSEN Okay, to elaborate on that, I mean, if you take war, the two sides are fighting and they've got equal weapons or some is maybe more sophisticated than the other one, but at least the ones who are attacked has also got a chance to the attacker, and I'm saying, I mean, if we also had the same kind of weapons then we could have - it should have been something different. MR MBANDAZAYO Okay, maybe just to add to that, may I say for instance different ...(indistinct) any other person possibly it would have not been a different ball-game if, even if he had weapons or because they don't know anything about weapons. Are you trying to tell the Committee that you have a knowledge of using a firearm, or you were trained in using firearms? MR FRANZSEN Well I was trained during 1978 to 1980, I was trained in the Army. That was fourteen years before the incident, so it was a long time ago, but it's something you never forget. MR MBANDAZAYO Thank you, Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON As everybody else asked questions, I want to ask some general questions about Sterkspruit. How big is it, or how big was it then? MR FRANZSEN It's the same size, Mr Chairman. It's the same size as it is now at this point, we've got a few furniture shops there, and a few supermarkets, a hotel, grocery stores and so on. It's quite a big community. CHAIRPERSON And who owns those businesses now? MR FRANZSEN It's still owned by your company, it still owns businesses there, two shops. CHAIRPERSON And are there still white people working there? MR FRANZSEN We've got still a white Manager, still working there, and as the other furniture shop as well, they've got also white Managers, and then furniture shops from other companies, they've also got still white Managers there. CHAIRPERSON And I notice that in those days, or rather when you came to make your affidavit, you were living in Zastron. MR FRANZSEN That's correct yes. CHAIRPERSON And Deon Maarten was living at Wepener. MR FRANZSEN That is also correct. CHAIRPERSON Did you drive to and from work everyday? MR FRANZSEN Yes, he came from Wepener and picked me up in the mornings, and then Fanie Smit as well, and we go thought to Sterkspruit where we do our daily job. CHAIRPERSON And were there other people doing to same thing? MR FRANZSEN Other people were doing exactly the same thing, yes. CHAIRPERSON So you were coming in early in the morning, a lot of white people worked at Sterkspruit, drove into Sterkspruit early in the morning? MR FRANZSEN That is correct, yes. CHAIRPERSON And anybody who wanted to make enquiry or ...(indistinct) would have found this out? MR FRANZSEN Yes. CHAIRPERSON And I presume your cars - your vehicles would have also been recognisable? MR FRANZSEN That's correct. CHAIRPERSON If they were used - there were also used day after day. MR FRANZSEN The very same vehicles, yes, I mean, they know that. CHAIRPERSON Thanks. MR FRANZSEN Okay. MR PRIOR Thank you, Mr Chairman, that's all for today, and all for this session. CHAIRPERSON Is this matter also going to be adjourned now to a date to be arranged and a venue to be arranged, conditional upon receiving the representation which the PAC have undertaken to make and any further which we may obtain of the people - implicated parties. I would like to stress that we would be extremely grateful to the implicated parties if they are able to deal with the question of the positions they held and the instructions they gave to the applicants and other young people who might have been convicted of offences which they were - which they committed what they believed to be in the interests of the Party and the Country, and if that is the position, we would like to clarify that as soon as possible, so from that point of view we would like the implicated parties who have been mentioned to realise just how important their contribution can be towards ensuring that the process is carried out as quickly as possible. Thank you. MR MBANDAZAYO Thank you, Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON Well, we now adjourn this sitting. Sorry, before we leave, could I on behalf of the members of the Committee thank Solly for what he's done, the translators for what they have done, the attorneys who have appeared before us, and all those in Aliwal-North itself who have done so much to make the hearings proceed smoothly, and in that we obliged to the Police Force for having made their facilities available for us and to the Correctional Services for having ensured that the applicants are here when needed, that their attorneys have had a chance to consult with them in matters of that nature. We are very conscious of all that all of you have done, thank you. COMMITTEE ADJOURNS