amntrans AMNESTY HEARINGS 1998-04-20 ALIWAL NORTH 1 PHILA MARTIN DOLO 3485/96 Zastron Mayaphuthi bridge shooting https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=54585&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/aliwal/aliwal1_dolo.htm MR PRIOR Thank you, Mr Chairman. Mr Chairman, we commence with the applications of Phila Martin Dolo, application 3485/96 and Thabiso James Makoala - 6026/97. Today being the 20th of April 1998. Mr Chairman, there were delays, the Committee was aware of those delays. I don't know if you want anything placed on record. There seemed to be a series of problems that we encountered this morning. Firstly relating to the attendance of Mr Mokoala, who came very late in the morning, due to a confusion between the jail authorities and the South African Police, and also the ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON He was as I think you've told us outside the hearing, sent to the wrong place and they had to go and fetch him and bring him back here. MR PRIOR That is correct, Mr Chairman. Unbeknown to the TRC, we were dealing with it on the basis that he was a sentenced prisoner and yet he was not. He was awaiting trial, and there was, therein lay the confusion, Mr Chairman. But, however, we're in the position to commence. All the interested parties have been notified. Possibly just to place myself on record. Advocate P C Prior, Evidence Leader for the Amnesty Committee. Both applicants are represented. MR MBANDAZAYO Thank you, Mr Chairman. Mr Chairman, I confirm that I represent Phila Martin Dolo in this matter, thank you. CHAIRPERSON Your name please. MR MBANDAZAYO Thank you, Mr Chairman. My name is Mbandazayo, representing Phila Martin Dolo. Thank you, Mr Chairman. MR MTHEMBU Thank you, Mr Chairman. My name is Mthembu. I represent Thabiso James Makoala. CHAIRPERSON The Committee consists of myself, Mr Sibanyoni, Mr Sandi and Mr Lax. MR PRIOR Mr Chairman, may I indicate that there were several victims. All were notified. Those, Mr Tsemane, the deceased of the matter has his family who are present. Mr Schroeder, his wife, or his widow, was notified timeously on the 27th of March. She's not present, however I understood that her, the deceased's brother or brother-in-law would be attending. I have not yet seen them Mr Chairman, but contact was made with the Amnesty Committee and that family. Mr Brummer, that is Mrs Brummer's husband, will not be attending. He has indicated and communicated that to the Committee. The implicated persons, Mr Leemisa has been notified. I understand that there is no representation by him today and the other implicated person, Mr Modiboloa is some confusion or some doubt as to whether he is still alive at this time. He was unable to be traced Mr Chairman. Mr Chairman, having said that, the matter is ready to proceed. CHAIRPERSON Who is there senior officer? MR LAX Perhaps I could help there. My recollection was that they received their instructions via Mphahlele. CHAIRPERSON That is my recollection. Has he been informed? MR PRIOR Chairman, according to Dolo's application he says he was carrying out orders from APLA and Comrade Sibelo Palma had given him orders in Harare. So as far as his application strict is concerned there was no, I speak under correction, and for that reason there is no Commander who is notified. Let me just check the other one. MR LAX If I could be of assistance here, if you look at paragraph 5 on page 2 of Mr Dolo's affidavit he makes it clear that he was deployed in that area by Lethlapha Mphahlele on the instructions of Sibelo Palma. In essence page 2 of the new bundle you have given us, sorry, I beg your pardon, Mr Chairman, that was only received this morning. Yes, no, we understand that, but obviously we need to, I mean Mr Mbandazayo you can correct me if I am wrong, but... (intervention) MR MBANDAZAYO Correct Mr Chairman, I wanted to just to clarify that point Mr Chairman. The only thing its not a question of order ... (indistinct) is that he was deployed in that area by Comrade Lethlapha Mphahlele. MR PRIOR Yes. But in any event you're in touch with Mr Mphahlele and we're hoping to hear from you tomorrow in that regard. You can just draw this one to his attention as well. MR MBANDAZAYO Thank you Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON Well page 10 of the application by Makoala, paragraph 11(b) he said the orders were issued by L Mtashlela. He showed he is clearly an implicated person. Will you draw his attention to it. MR PRIOR Mr Chairman may the initial bundle be marked "A", where the index runs 1 - 9 and the supplementary bundle "B"? CHAIRPERSON Right, that will be done. MR PRIOR Mr Chairman, I don't know if it's necessary to briefly summarise the matter before we commence? CHAIRPERSON I think it may be as the first deposition you will hear will be that of the applicant, and it might be better if there is at least agreement as to the order in which events happened and how they happened. MR PRIOR May I then refer to page 41 of the supplementary bundle. It sets out the summary, Mr Chairman, of the events that occurred on the 19th of November 1992 on the Sterkspruit Lady Grey Road. That incident relates to the deaths of three people; Mr Peter Schroeder, Mrs Shirley Brummer and Mr Tsemane on that day where their vehicles were attacked. Shots were fired and they sustained fatal injuries. There was also an attempted murder of Mr Douglas Selly, who drove past. May I just place on record Mr Selly lives permanently in England for the last three and a half years, Mr Chairman, I understand that he hasn't been informed of the matter, and at the same time in an Isuzu bakkie, two ladies, Mrs Dlephu and Mrs Booysen, teachers, who also came under attack on that same day after the shooting of the three earlier people that I mentioned. And their vehicle was in fact taken by the applicants and their Comrades. Thank you, Mr Chairman. MR LAX Sorry Mr Prior there were three ladies in that vehicle, the third one being Mrs Molungwana. MR PRIOR Yes, I noticed that. CHAIRPERSON There were four according to Mrs Booysen. In Page 11 of bundle "B" she said "I was travelling with three passengers, Mrs Busosewe Dlephu, Mrs Nonsekolelo Ngepe and Mrs Molungwana." MR PRIOR Quite correct Mr Chairman, thank you. CHAIRPERSON Could you perhaps tell us Mr Prior, I have been endeavouring to work out what must have happened. It might clarify things a little if we are told, presumable evidence will be lead. We have been given such graphs in the bundle "B" and we have been given a key which merely says "pointed out by Warrant Officer Gomada and Sergeant Adonis." What were these points? In photograph 3 what are they pointing out? In photograph 4 what are they pointing out? MR PRIOR Yes, I'll able to clarify that. My understanding is that I think photograph 3 is where the body of Mr Schroeder was lying and 4 was were the bakkie left the road, but that is subject to confirmation, Mr Chairman, and I will certainly be leading evidence. But that seems to be the case. CHAIRPERSON Mr Prior, 4 was a place well away from the road, photograph 4, it may be where the bakkie came to rest, not where it left the road. MR PRIOR Came to rest Mr Chairman, yes. And those correspond with the places we see, or where photographs 23, photographs on 23 and 24, Mr Chairman. Sorry after the second bundle, Mr Chairman, of "B". CHAIRPERSON Right. Perhaps one last point to make the reference easier. We have the photograph no 1 on page 19, 17 of the new bundle, bundle "B". Does that show the road leading to Sterkspruit at the top of the photograph? MR PRIOR That's right Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON And Lady Grey at the bottom? MR PRIOR That's correct Mr Chairman. And one can see the bridge almost in the middle, slightly less than the middle of the page from the top with a wear, there's a wear apparently on the right hand side, Mr Chairman, and that is the place depicted on page 20 onwards. And that's where the bakkie apparently came to rest in that area. CHAIRPERSON Would, that would be on the left hand side of the road going towards Sterkspruit? MR PRIOR No, the right hand side of the road. CHAIRPERSON Where is the wear Mr Prior? MR PRIOR Chairperson, you can see it quite clearly as there is a solid line to the right of the bridge on that photograph. CHAIRPERSON Is that the weir? MR PRIOR Yes. Mr Chairman if one looks at page 20 of the new bundle, those bundled "B", the second photograph marked 4(a), one has a better picture of what the ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON Is that what one sees in paragraph 17. MR PRIOR Yes, Mr Chairman. There seems to be quite a drop from that position. The weir one sees on the right hand side of the photograph at page 20. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. MR SIBANYONI: Mr Mbandazayo are you ready to start? MR MBANDAZAYO Yes, thank you Mr Chairman, we are ready to start, Mr Chairman. May the applicant, Phila Martin Dolo be sworn in? MR SIBANYONI Okay, just to start off with one practical point, channel 2 will be English and channel 3 will be Xhosa. So can you assist Mr Mbandazayo to make sure that he is on channel 3. Channel 4 will be Sesotho. I understand Mr Mbandazayo, your client is Xhosa speaking, am I correct? MR MBANDAZAYO Yes, Mr Chairman, that is correct. And he's on channel 3, he is already on channel 3, Mr Chairman. MR SIBANYONI We will now swear him in. PHILA MARTIN DOLO (Duly sworn in) MR MBANDAZAYO Mr Dolo, do you confirm that this affidavit which is before the Committee has been made by you and you abide by its contents? MR DOLO Yes. MR MBANDAZAYO Mr Chairman, as usual, Mr Chairman, I want, I'll take you to certain paragraphs of his affidavits for the explanation of the Committee and I'll immediately jump page 1 of the affidavit and go to page 2 which is paragraph 5, Mr Chairman "I was the Regional Commander of APLA and I was deployed in the Sterkspruit-Zastron Lady Grey area by Lethlapha Mphahlele on the instruction of Sibelo Palma." MR MBANDAZAYO Can you for the benefit of the Committee explain what do you mean when you say that you were "Regional Commander" and also that "you were deployed in that area on the instruction of Lethlapha Mphahlele on the instruction of Sibelo Palma"? MR DOLO Firstly I will start with where I was stationed at Sterkspruit and with its surrounding areas of Zastron and Lady Grey that area regarded as a region when we divide South Africa. So, all that area was under my command and second we come to the question of Lethlapha Mphahlele and Sibelo Palma. The time I was entering the country of which I was once in Zimbabwe I met there Comrade Sibelo Palma who gave me instructions to get inside the country and engage Settler's Colonies in continuing for the liberation of our people. And when I arrived inside the country, I met Comrade Lethlapha Mphahlele who instructed me that I have to be stationed at this stated area there of Sterkspruit of which I would be the commander of that area. MR MBANDAZAYO Thank you Mr Chairman. Mr Chairman I am proceeding to paragraph 6 "The target was identified by myself. The armaments used in the operation was organised by myself. On my capacity as a Regional Commander I was charged with the task of getting the ball rolling operationally and intelligence wise, and I was reporting directly to the director of operations regarding my activities an operation before and after they have taken place. I was therefore always having Cadres at my disposal as I was involved in training new recruits" Now I have read this paragraph I would like you first to start with the first sentence and tell the Committee how did you arrive at the target? How did you identify the target? Can you explain to the Committee? MR DOLO As the Commander or the Regional Commander of that area, there will be soldiers who are under my command. They will be engaged in surveillance work and recognisance work and all that will be brought under my command. Then I will decide out of that information or out of that data in what target or which target we have to attack. Then whatever operation that took place in that area it was then under my command. I was the one therefore that we targeting the targets and identifying targets which ones have to be attacked. MR MBANDAZAYO Now, "the armaments used in the operation was organised by myself". Can you explain that to the Committee? How did you organise the weapons which were used? MR DOLO When I arrived in that area of Sterkspruit there were arms that I found that they were there already. They were handed over in my command. In that way I was the one therefore in charge of those arms. And further if there has to be other arms that has to be transported in our area and they will needing my identification and my approval. I will briefly state it that way. MR LAX Sorry, who did you take over from? MR DOLO Sorry, repeat the question? MR LAX Who did you take over from when these arms were handed over to you when you took over command? Who handed them to you and who did you take over from? MR MBANDAZAYO Sorry, Mr Chairman just I want because we speaking in English I think the best way is to put it ...(intervention) MR LAX On channel 2. MR MBANDAZAYO Channel 2. MR LAX Sorry just to repeat the questions. There are really two or three different questions in one. So let me do them separately. Who did you take over command from in that area? Who was the commander before you in other words? MR DOLO Before I arrived? MR LAX Yes. MR DOLO It was another guy by the name of, I think it was his Sotho name, by the name of Phila. MR LAX Phila? MR DOLO Aha. MR LAX I know you use chimarengan names, but do you know Phila's proper name? MR DOLO I know him as Phila. MR LAX No other chimarengan name? No other code name? MR DOLO I take it that would be his chimarenga. MR LAX And who handed over the arms to you? MR MBANDAZAYO Sorry Mr Chairman, I just want to, it seems as if you don't get each other. I'm sure there's a problem with his microphone. MR SIBANYONI Yes, but he is supposed to be on channel 2 there. If he addressing the Committee in English. Is he on channel 2? What does it say there on this thing? Does it show a 2 like this? MR MBANDAZAYO Yes, it's okay now, Mr Chairman. MR LAX Just for your benefit on the right hand side of this unit is a volume control. If you push it downwards it will increase the volume. So, just to repeat in case you didn't year me, you only knew Phila's chimarengan name, you didn't know any other name of his? MR DOLO No I didn't know any other name. MR LAX He didn't use any other chimarengan names? MR DOLO There was also another name. MR LAX Yes, what was that? MR DOLO Sipawa. MR LAX Now, you took over from him as you said. Who handed over the arms to you? MR DOLO It was him. MR LAX And what arms did he hand over to you? MR DOLO I have R4 rifles. MR LAX How many? MR DOLO Two. MR LAX Carry on. MR DOLO Pistols. MR LAX How many? MR DOLO I don't recall. MR LAX What sort of calibre? MR DOLO 9mm and a revolver and grenades. MR LAX How many grenades? MR DOLO I don't know how many grenades. MR LAX What sort of grenades? MR DOLO M24. MR LAX Any other firearms? MR DOLO I don't recall. MR LAX Ammunition? MR DOLO There was ammunition for all these weapons I have mentioned. MR LAX Roughly how much per weapon or are you unable to say? MR DOLO I would say for the rifle was a lot, but for the pistol we were short of ammunition for the pistols. MR LAX What was the calibre of the revolvers? MR DOLO It was an R4, which is ...(intervention) MR LAX Sorry, the revolvers. MR DOLO Oh, the revolver. 38 Special. MR LAX Somewhere in these papers and it might not necessarily be in yours, I might be confused, mention is made of a shotgun. Did anyone have a shotgun? MR DOLO No, it was a handgun, not a shotgun. MR LAX Okay. MR DOLO There was a stand, maybe that's why the word shotgun was used, but a stand I think qualify with the submachine pistol or submachine guns. MR LAX When you say "a stand" you are referring to some sort of a tripod? MR DOLO No, it would be a stand. MR LAX Sorry. MR DOLO Stand, submachine gun. MR LAX Okay, I'm with you. MR MBANDAZAYO You may proceed, Mr Chairman. MR LAX Last question, where did Phila go to after he left this area? MR DOLO I went to Lesotho. MR LAX You went to Lesotho? MR DOLO Yes. MR LAX Carry on Mr Mbandazayo. MR MBANDAZAYO Thank you Mr Chairman. Mr Chairman now I'll go to the last sentence of paragraph 6. CHAIRPERSON Before you do that, can I ask a question. Who was the director of operations you reported directly to? MR DOLO It was, we normally know him as Happy. Then he is known as Lethlapha Mphahlele. MR MBANDAZAYO May I proceed, Mr Chairman? Thank you Mr Chairman. "I was therefore always helping cadres at my disposal as I was involved in training new recruits". Can you explain that to the Committee? MR DOLO The area was used for training cadres, cadres, people who came for training, maybe from Transkei at Umtata or around other areas of Transkei. Some were sent to my area for training, so I will be responsible for that. I will take part as an instructor, I also acted as an instructor. I would conduct classes, military classes. MR MBANDAZAYO Can you explain what you do with those cadres after you have trained them to the Committee? Can you explain that? MR DOLO Some I will be imported them in some other operations and others I won't be involved with them. They will be sent to, I will send them maybe to Transkei where they will be redeployed into other areas. MR MBANDAZAYO Paragraph 7, Mr Chairman "We were four operatives for the Lady Grey Herschel Ambush. It was myself as a Commander, armed with R4 rifles", Mr Chairman. "Kleintjie, armed with 38 Special", Mr Chairman. Mr Chairman, for the purposes of the Committee Kleintjie is Thabiso James Makoala, the other applicant in this matter. "Roger armed with Special .38 Special, and Scorpion armed 9mm short" At the ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON While you are supplying names, can you supply names for these other people? MR MBANDAZAYO Mr Chairman, I am supplying those I can, I will ask to ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON Could you ask him if he can? MR MBANDAZAYO I have read that paragraph you have heard Mr Chairman. Can you tell us what was the real name, do you know the real name of Roger armed, who was armed with .38 Special and Scorpion armed with 9mm short? MR DOLO I don't know even of, I started to know it when I met even this one of Kleintjie. I know him all along as Kleintjie. I met him I think '96 at Grootvlei at Bloemfontein. I started then to know his real name. They also ...(inaudible) two Comrades. I don't know their real names. CHAIRPERSON Will you please ask your client to speak into the microphone. He is leaning right across, speaking across it, looking at us understandably it makes it very difficult to hear him. MR MBANDAZAYO Made to repeat. CHAIRPERSON So he doesn't know the names of Roger and Scorpion? MR MBANDAZAYO Yes, Mr Chairman. MR DOLO At the time of the incident, the time of this incident we were staying at Jozanna's Walk in Transkei. MR MBANDAZAYO "At the time of this incident we were staying at Jozanna's Walk in Transkei" Will you be able to, can you explain to the Committee how far this area you were staying, this Jozanna's Walk to where this incident took place? MR DOLO I will say it was very far. MR LAX Are you able to give us an estimation in kilometres, or MR DOLO A couple of miles. Take it to be more than 10 plus. MR LAX So not more or more than? MR DOLO It's more than. I take it to be. MR LAX More than 10 kilometres, sorry. MR DOLO Let's say miles. MR LAX Miles. So that would be sixteen kilometres? MR DOLO We hiked on a truck to this spot and the arms were in the bag. I was the only person who knew what was going to happen and I briefed my unit when we arrived at the spot. MR MBANDAZAYO Now, the question is for the benefit of the Committee, whether when you were travelling to this spot, did the other Comrades not know what was going to happen and whether they did not now whether you are carrying weapons in the bag? Can you explain to the Committee? MR DOLO The, my Comrades, they knew where we are going, that is we are going to an operation, but they did not know what form of an operation and the kind of an operation that we are going to embark on it. MR LAX Sorry, but they knew the area you were going to? MR DOLO Yes. MR LAX Continue, Mr Mbandazayo. MR MBANDAZAYO "I deployed the unit on the same side of the road. I told them that we were to attack cars whose occupants were white." Now, my first question would be, do you still remember which side of the road you deployed with the Comrades? MR DOLO I'm not sure about which side. I don't recall it now. I think my fellow Comrade who has also applied for this case maybe will help me in this. MR LAX Have you looked at the photographs in the new bundle? MR DOLO Not yet. MR LAX Maybe you should have a look at the photograph on page 17. MR MBANDAZAYO Which bundle Mr Chairman? MR LAX The new bundle, bundle "B", in other words. This is a photograph taken from the air and Sterkspruit area is on the top and Lady Grey direction is at the bottom. Maybe you can indicate to us on that photograph on the left or the right. MR DOLO I think we were on the, in which direction do I have to position myself when I look at it? MR LAX Well, if you are on the bottom of the photograph, looking towards the top of the photograph, you are looking in the direction of Sterkspruit. MR DOLO Okay. MR LAX I have made available the original photograph for clarity for the witness. MR DOLO I'm not sure about that, which side I was on it. MR LAX Please continue, Mr Mbandazayo. MR MBANDAZAYO Thank you. Now, my same paragraph, Mr Chairman, "I told them that we were to attack cars whose occupants were white" Can you explain that to the Committee? I will repeat again, "I told them", paragraph 9, Mr Chairman "that we were to attack cars whose occupants were white". Can you explain that to the Committee? MR DOLO As a APLA Cadre, also as a member of the PAC we were engaged in the struggle to liberate this country, which was usurped by whites or normally ...(indistinct) Settler's Colonists. So our struggle was therefor for a liberation of mankind and of the overthrow of those Settlers, and the orders that I have from Mr Sibelo Palma, who is late current, gave us, my orders that I have to engage Settlers and continue with the arms struggle. And also, with the situation which emancipated around started 1990's whereby we find that African people civilians were being killed. The APLA structured High Command decided that we have to attack settlers whether they were normally known as so-called civilians in as a question of reprisal and in also as a self-defence as our people were being killed in cases like Boipathong, the question of the trains and etc. CHAIRPERSON So are you saying it was the APLA High Command policy at that time to attack whites, whoever they might be? MR DOLO If you read APLA's submission to the TRC, it made it clear there that they were, they gave orders to the killing of so-called white civilians as a question of reprisal and a question of self-defence. So, I was keeping those orders by the High Command of APLA. MR LAX With the greatest of respect, the submission by APLA to the TRC, and I was present during that submission, makes it quite clear that there is a question of proportionality involved here. MR DOLO Yes. MR LAX You remember that? MR DOLO ...(indistinct) explained those questions of proportionalities. MR LAX Yes, it does. It talks about proportionality in relation to both political objectives to be achieved, in other words, a political implication of the attack that might be carried out and it goes from a sense of proportionality in terms of the sense you have used it as one of reprisal. In other words, if the regime was to hit us, we would hit back at the regime. MR DOLO As it was happening. MR LAX Precisely. So, what, what were you engaging in reprisals for? MR DOLO I have mentioned a few examples, the case of ...(intervention) MR LAX The Boipathong was much later than this. MR DOLO It was in line therefor. MR LAX But it happened after this event. Had not yet happened. MR DOLO If you read it broadly the statement, submission of the ...(intervention) MR LAX Yes, I want to know what specific acts where you in reprisal against? MR DOLO I have mentioned the question of Boipathong. CHAIRPERSON How could you be in reprisal against something that had not happened? MR DOLO Which had not happened? CHAIRPERSON Yes. MR LAX What did not happen? CHAIRPERSON Boipathong had not happened at this time, had it? MR DOLO It was ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON When you launched this attack? MR DOLO When did it happen, Boipathong? MR MBANDAZAYO I'm sorry, Mr Dolo, my understanding as I was listening to you, are you not mentioning Boipathong as an example of the tragedies that were happening there at the time. MR DOLO Yes. MR MBANDAZAYO You went on to talk about train shootings and I understood you to say that it was in that context that this policy was adopted. MR DOLO Yes. MR LAX I'm just wanting to know what specific incidents you in your own mind when you formed the intention to carry out these reprisals. MR DOLO I generalise all those attacks which were committed against African civilians. MR LAX So you didn't have any specific attack in mind? MR DOLO You may use the one I already used. MR LAX Well, either you did or you did not? If you generalised it then you did not have a specific in mind. If you had a specific in mind then say which specific you had in mind. MR DOLO I mentioned the question of Boipathong as a specific one and I add that ...(intervention) MR LAX Sorry, I beg your pardon? MR DOLO I said I add, I made an addition to the question of the shootings that took place in the trains. MR LAX So, by attacking random white motorists, are you listening? MR DOLO Can you say again? MR LAX So by attacking random white motorists, you were in some way hoping to achieve a reprisal for the sorts of attacks that Boipathong and the train violence symbolised? MR DOLO And etceteras, etceteras. MR LAX Well what are the etceteras and etceteras? MR DOLO I think I have to go to these medias and organise from them their reports of the killings that took place in our townships committed by whites. MR PRIOR You see, you formed an opinion and you formed an intention and you formed an objective. We need to know from you in order to measure that objective for proportionality. What went through your mind? It's no good you going to read the newspapers now. We want to know what went through your mind then. Do you understand my question, I'm not trying to be unfair to you, but at the same time, you were the Commander, you chose the target, you formed an opinion. We want to know what motivated you. Not in general terms. MR DOLO The question of the attacks, the question, sorry, the question of the trains whereby people were being killed on the trains that was one that motivated me a lot. MR LAX You see, the train violence, just as a matter of interest, was in a general third force capacity. Even to this day, no one knows exactly for sure who did that. MR DOLO I take it we the Africans knew who committed such acts, those atrocities. MR LAX But they were totally random. That's the point we're trying to make. People were killed randomly regardless of their political affiliations. MR DOLO We are dealing here with the question of the reprisals. MR LAX Yes, I'm trying to understand a random attack against all and sundry. How could your attack against whites be any reprisal for that? MR DOLO I have mentioned some few incidents whereby our people were being killed. MR LAX Well, you have mentioned Boipathong and you have mentioned general train violence. MR DOLO And I say etceteras. MR LAX Yes, but etceteras is not good enough for us. We need to know what you thought of in your head. MR DOLO The death also of our people in prisons. I forget also the name of this Comrade. One of the APLA Commanders who was also killed in prison. MR LAX Was it contemporaneous with this? MR DOLO Those, all those things, all those killings of our African people, they all, all come together and that's how I formed this opinion. MR LAX So, are you taking three hundred years of history and using that as a basis for reprisal? MR DOLO You may take it that way. MR LAX No, I am not going to take it anyway. I want to know what you want me to do? MR DOLO Then I am saying to you take it that way. MR LAX No. MR MBANDAZAYO Mr Chairman, ... (intervention) ADV SANDI Sorry Mr Mbandazayo. Mr Dolo, you have given to us what seems to have been the general context as you understood it at the time in question. Now, can I ask a question? You have referred to murderous assaults which were being perpetrated on the African people at that time. Were you holding the white population in any way responsible for that? MR DOLO Yes. ADV SANDI Can you explain that please? MR DOLO It was generally known that the people that committed such acts where white and APLA take a decision then that if there would be such atrocities against our people, they will be engaged in revenge or as I mentioned reprisal, and also in self-defence. ADV SANDI Are you sure that all these acts where being committed by whites. Don't you think you need some explaining to do on that one? MR DOLO That will be the work of the Police to give us who committed those acts, but we, we the people the limit we generally know that those people who committed acts where white. MR LAX You see, to this day there is not one shred of evidence that a white person went onto a train and killed and shot and threw and stabbed anyone off the train. Those were black people who did those things. So they didn't commit them as white people. That's what I am trying to understand from you. That's a fact that everybody accepts in this country. No matter whose side you're on. Whether the orders might have been issued by whites that's a different issue, but you are saying those acts were committed by whites. They were not. The facts at the moment, and we've delved very deeply into this as the Truth Commission show that they were committed by black people. MR DOLO And were said by whom to commit such acts? MR LAX Well, that's a different issue, but you're saying they were committed by white people. You didn't say they were sent by white people. MR DOLO They are collaborators. MR SIBANYONI When you refer to whites, Mr Dolo, are you doing so without drawing any distinction between the white population and the white government which we all know was in place at the time? MR DOLO Come to what? MR SIBANYONI Do you draw any distinction there? When you talk about whites on the one hand. Is there any difference between the white government which we all know existed at the time, between the whites you are talking about? MR DOLO We find it as PAC members that there was no difference between whites and the white government. It was there because of those whites. They were the one who were voting, so they were part and parcel of that government. They benefited a lot from it. MR SIBANYONI You didn't draw any distinction between the two? MR DOLO I didn't draw any distinction. MR MBANDAZAYO Mr Dolo, through you Mr Chairperson, you said when you left Zimbabwe coming into the country, you received orders from Sibelo Palma to say, engage the Settlers. What did you understand by the word "engage". What did it entail? MR DOLO That I would be the Commander. The fleet Commander on the ground and I would be physically be involved in attacks of whites. MR MBANDAZAYO Thank you. MR LAX When exactly did you come back from Zimbabwe? MR DOLO '92. MR LAX And Sibelo Palma gave you this order in 1992? MR DOLO No. MR LAX When? MR DOLO '91. I think so. MR LAX In 1991? But you see, up until 1993 there was still a very clear distinction between attacking whites generally and attacking people connected to the Security Forces, farmers and people connected, or in some way who were black collaborators with the State. There was a very clear distinction right up until 1993 on that issue. It was only when the year of the Storm was declared in 1993 that that distinction ceased to exist. So I want you to explain how come you could have got such an order in 1991. MR DOLO Firstly I take it that I was not the only one who was given such an order, to come inside the country and engage the Settlers. And it was to their decision, the High Command of when to unleash such attacks against the Settlers. Then they decided that they are going maybe to, they started after 1993 that started 1992 if you recall a lot of some operation of which APLA was involved in it. MR LAX You see the point at which the High Command acknowledged that they ceased to differentiate was when Operation Storm started, and that was in 1993. That was the point at which the High Command decided, and Sibelo Palma in particular, decided that we now have to make whites understand that if they won't change they are going to suffer like our people are suffering. There will be no safety. They will not be able to sit in the quiet white suburbs and not suffer. That was the thrust of that whole Operation Storm. Do you conceive that? MR DOLO I'm sure if you are going to give maybe an order, such as that one that was given by Sibelo Palma in 1993 of the Great Storm that had been ...(intervention) MR LAX Yes. MR DOLO Great Storm. You have to know that as a Commander maybe you have deployed to people inside the country as like myself, the question of myself. I don't know if you get me? MR LAX You see, Mr Dolo APLA was deploying people from way before 1990. They were deploying people continuously for ...(intervention) MR DOLO For specific operations. MR LAX Not only for specific operations, in preparation for other operations that might come. When you create an army you don't just deploy it on an ad hoc basis. You build up your troops on the ground, you build up your cadres on the ground, you build up your lines of communication. The situation is not static. It changes. We understand that, we've all studied history. MR DOLO So, do you have a question? MR LAX Yes, I'm saying to you, you weren't simply deployed for Operation Storm two years prior to it. The material conditions on the ground determined when Operation Storm should happen. MR DOLO The Great Storm never specifies that it was only then that we have to attack so-called civilians, so-called ...(inaudible) that were being attacked by APLA. So, we don't have portray a line between these things that by attacked took place in 1992, as if it was contrary to what APLA's decision or that of the High Command of attacking whites. MR MBANDAZAYO Mr Chairman, I think we will run around assessments of what was understanding of the orders given to Mr Dolo. How do we interpret them? How he interpreted them, and how this Committee interpreted the submissions of APLA, and I don't think we would be in a position to get any common ground on that aspect, on the understanding or interpretation of this. MR LAX I agree, let us press on. I was just trying to understand where your client was coming from, and the broader context within which these things happened. I can see we are going to have to agree to disagree for the moment. These things will become clearer as we go on anyway. You know we've sat through three weeks of hearings, so we have a much broader picture of other APLA commanders' outlooks and of their perceptions as well, not just your, this particular client. But let's move on, I agree. MR MBANDAZAYO Thank you, Mr Chairman. "Because it was" - paragraph 10, Mr Chairman, "Because it was in the morning, it was difficult to see the occupants of the car at a distance. I ordered Kleintjie to stand at a certain point and warn us of the occupants". Can you tell us how Kleintjie was going to give the signal? MR DOLO He was wearing a hat on his head. If he see a car which, of which its occupants were white, he is to raise it up and make it a sign out of it. MR SIBANYONI Would you mind, Mr Dolo, to repeat that, I did not follow you on that? MR DOLO I say Kleintjie was having a hat on his head. Then if he see a car whose occupants were white he was, I ordered him to raise the hat as a sign. MR MBANDAZAYO "A white", same paragraph, Mr Chairman, "a white bakkie came with white occupants and Kleintjie gave a signal and", sorry can I repeat that Mr Chairman, my mike was off? "A white bakkie came with the white occupants and Kleintjie gave a signal and I ordered the Comrades to attack it, and it lost control." Whilst you were there, can you tell the Committee who was the first to shoot when you ordered that the car must be attacked? MR DOLO As a Commander I gave orders that we had to attack the car which was approaching us. At that stage I was armed with a rifle and the other Comrades were armed with pistols and a revolver. We all attacked it. To be precisely speaking I think all on this case if Kleintjie was in the position to see us, he would be of help, but I also took part in attacking that car. To be specific in who started the attack I don't, I don't was to misinterpret myself. EXAMINATION BY MR MBANDAZAYO (cont) "The occupants came out of the car and ran away. They hiked a taxi and I shot the taxi and it fell on the bridge. When we arrived at the bridge we find the driver of the taxi and a white woman dead". Can you take the Committee through that? When you saw them running and taking and hiking the taxi, can you take the Committee step by step as what actually took place? MR DOLO After Kleintjie gave his signal of the approaching car I moved closer to the road trying to be inside the road, to stop it. I started shooting and also other Comrades were also shooting at that stage, but the car managed to pass through us as it was, Kleintjie was not far away from us and it was speeding. So it passed through us and we continued shooting it until it stopped and the occupants of the car managed to get out of it. And as they were running to the direction of Herschel or Sterkspruit there was an approaching car to their direction and it stopped for them and it made a U-turn and they entered the car and they moved or ran to the direction of Herschel. I continued shooting with an R4 rifle until the car capsized to the bridge. MR MBANDAZAYO Yes, can you continue until you find ...(intervention) MR DOLO After that we continue our pursuit. As we passed the bridge we saw these two occupants who were in the car, the driver of the car and this white lady and we chased those who managed to escape out of the car. We managed to get one person and as I was behind the Comrades I, they left him there lying on the road. He was shot, and I also shot him. MR LAX How did you shoot him? MR DOLO I shoot him with the rifle. I was next to him and I ...(intervention) MR LAX Where did you shoot? MR DOLO I blow his head. MR LAX Sorry? MR DOLO I blow his head with an R4 rifle. MR LAX You actually put it up his neck here and shot him, is that right? MR DOLO I think it was in this part somewhere. MR LAX Sorry? MR DOLO I think it was somewhere here. CHAIRPERSON He's indicating the back of his head. The driver was a black man, was he? MR DOLO Yes. MR MBANDAZAYO Can I proceed, Mr Chairman. "The other occu...." paragraph 11, Mr Chairman, "The other occupants were not there, Scorpion saw them and gave a chase. He shot one and I also shot him and the other one disappeared" Can you tell the Committee how did this happen? MR DOLO That's what I ...(intervention) MR LAX Sorry, he has already. He's told us already. MR MBANDAZAYO Thank you Mr Chairman. MR SIBANYONI You know maybe he's got something more to add on that. Is there anything you would like to add, Mr Dolo? MR DOLO There is nothing to add. MR MBANDAZAYO "We stopped a Toyota bakkie which was driven by two women and we requested them to borrow us their car and we told them that we will drop it in Sterkspruit". Can you tell the Committee how did you do that, requesting them to borrow them, to borrow you their car? MR DOLO We were retreating to our area and we were using our foot, we were not having any car. On our way as we are moving the road to Herschel we saw this approaching car and there was this scene, it appeared when there was this scene of the shooting of this person who was lying on the road. So out of panic they reduced the speed of their car and then we managed to stop them and requested them to borrow them, borrow us, their car. And they did borrow us their car. MR LAX Did you do anything else to try and make them stop? How did you make them stop? MR DOLO I went into the road and I used the hand to stop them. CHAIRPERSON Went into the road and did what? MR DOLO And I used a hand to stop the car. MR LAX Just for the record, you indicated that you held up your hand, as one would normally say "stop". MR DOLO Yes. MR SIBANYONI But, Mr Dolo, these people did not know you, did they? MR DOLO Yes, they don't know me. MR SIBANYONI Yes, but how could they have allowed a stranger to borrow their car? MR DOLO As I say they appear when this scene was come to its, when after all this things has happened. I'm sure they heard the shots on their way and as they were approaching us then there was this dead person in the road, and I take it maybe out of the situation as it was apparent to them they reduced the speed of the car, and it was easy for me to stop them. ADV SANDI Can I infer from what you have just said that these people were acting out of fear, with the utmost fear that prevailed? MR DOLO Normally, as you understand it the occupants of the car were females, and I take it that in that situation, normally, they would be feeling some sort of, feeling threatened by the scene. CHAIRPERSON Did you all have guns in your hands? MR DOLO At the time I was talking to them I was having an R4. CHAIRPERSON Mm? MR DOLO The time I was talking to them using my right hand ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON Yes. MR DOLO I was holding an R4 with the left hand. CHAIRPERSON And the others, what were they doing? MR DOLO I did not notice them. CHAIRPERSON So you held them up at gun-point and took their vehicle? MR DOLO When you're holding a person at gun-point, I take it that you point a gun on them, and that's ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON Or you hold your gun ready to use, as you did. MR DOLO I was not, I don't use a left hand to shoot. I used my right hand to stop them so meaning I was not holding them at gun-point. MR SIBANYONI But you were talking to them with a dangerous weapon in your possession and you were wanting that they hand the car over to you. MR LAX You don't seriously want to suggest to us that the firearm did not play any role in them stopping? MR DOLO No, I didn't suggest that. It may have played a role. MR LAX It probably played the biggest role because they knew that if they didn't stop they might get shot. Isn't that right? MR DOLO We were not going to shoot them. MR LAX But they didn't know that. MR DOLO Out of them maybe, maybe, but they were having their minds. CHAIRPERSON And you say there were two of them? MR DOLO Sorry, will you repeat again CHAIRPERSON You say there were two of them. MR DOLO I think so. CHAIRPERSON Mm? MR DOLO I think there were two occupants. The driver ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON From the statements we're given, we've been told there were four. MR DOLO I'm not aware of that. CHAIRPERSON Do you dispute it? MR DOLO I don't dispute it. CHAIRPERSON So you took these four people out of their car and left them there where the body was? Is that the position? MR DOLO We took them out of the car, they after all came out of their car. CHAIRPERSON And you left them there with the body, well there more, there were three bodies there, weren't there? MR DOLO How, what I say? CHAIRPERSON There were three bodies there, one lying on the road, and two in the ...(indistinct) had fallen off the road. MR DOLO The other two, the one who were on the bridge, I take them to be a distance away from the one who was lying on the road. MR SIBANYONI Thank you, Mr Chairman. I move to paragraph 12. "When we were inside the car we noticed a white 4 X 4 driven by a white person. It was in front of us, almost blocking our way. I ordered Kleintjie to shoot it and it reversed. We drove away and we saw the other white man hiking along the road. I tried to run him down and he ran away. I decided to leave" now just before I finish the paragraph, can you explain to the Committee how was this 4 X 4 almost blocking your way, before you ordered Kleintjie to shoot it and it reversed? MR DOLO After we have this bakkie I was the one who was going to drive it. I went to the driver's seat and as I went making a turn, and as the car was on the, turning around the road then there was this car which could not allow me to make a complete turn. Then when I noticed the occupant of the car, I found out it was a white person and the person who was closed that window of the side of the window to the road, it was Kleintjie and he was armed with the rifle which I was using. Then I ordered him to shoot at the car, to shoot at the occupant of the car. MR SIBANYONI Can you tell the Committee, did you manage to shoot the occupant of the car? MR DOLO He managed to release I think three shots, not more, I don't know how many shots, but he managed to shoot. MR SIBANYONI Can you tell the Committee what happened to the occupants of the car and to the car, the 4 X 4? MR DOLO The occupant of the car, after he heard the shots, he managed to reverse the car and on that time I was also making this U-turn and he were on the other side of the road and it were on the other side of the road. Then we forget about it. Then we drove off. ADV SANDI I'm trying to get a clear picture in mind as to what was happening here, did you go, did you both go in the same direction with this occupant of the car you are talking about? MR DOLO He was going to Herschel and we were going to Herschel too, so we reversed the car and made this turn to Herschel. MR LAX Say that again. He was going to Herschel, you were going to Herschel, you reversed the car and went to Herschel. That does not make sense. MR DOLO The car was not faced to Herschel the one which was taken by me, this, er ...(intervention) MR LAX Ladies. MR DOLO Ladies. So I made this turn to so that it can face to Herschel. MR LAX Right. MR DOLO As it was coming to that direction. That's what I did. MR LAX But you said he was going to Herschel, he reversed and then he went to, he made a turn and went to Herschel. Did you make the turn? MR DOLO I was the one who was making the turn. MR LAX Okay. Did he not turn and drive the opposite direction? MR DOLO I don't know about that. MR LAX So he managed to reverse out of your range and you left him? You were more interested in getting away, in retreating? MR DOLO Yes. MR SIBANYONI You also said "we drove away and we saw the other white man hiking along the road. I tried to run him down. He ran away. I decided to leave him." Can you tell the Committee whether when you tried to run down this white man, did he recognise that you are the same people who attacked him when he was hiking? MR DOLO I don't think he noticed us as the time we are attacking the car we were moving on foot, that's why maybe he made this hike. I don't think so, he noticed that we were the same people who were attacking that car. CHAIRPERSON I'm getting very confused on this. You say this car was travelling towards Herschel? MR DOLO Yes. CHAIRPERSON That means it would have been coming from Sterkspruit. MR DOLO No. CHAIRPERSON Is Herschel in the same direction as Sterkspruit? MR DOLO It's directional to Herschel. CHAIRPERSON But Sterkspruit is the same direction as Herschel. MR DOLO It's the same. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. MR SIBANYONI: "We dropped the car before we reached the town because we ran out of petrol. We travelled by foot to our base, and when we arrived the Comrades handed the weapons to me. I thereafter reported to my superiors." Can you tell the Committee the name of the Superiors you reported this incident to after it happened and what was their reaction? MR DOLO I referred to Comrade ... (indistinct) operation, that is Lethlapha Mphahlele as my Superior. MR SIBANYONI Can you tell the Committee what was his reaction after you reported to him about this incident? MR DOLO He encouraged me to continue further attacks on Settlers and he was happy about that. ADV SANDI We have seen in other cases that in these types of incidents the report would be given in writing. In what form did you report this to Mr Lethlapha? There was no written report, you just told him what had happened? MR DOLO The question of the written report would take a lot of time. It will require maybe three days to reach their place. Sometimes I have to go there and report in myself, in my person in front of them. Sometimes I have to use the phone as there, as it is a fast way of communication. So, in this incident, I used the phone. ADV SANDI Did you give him what you would consider to be a detailed report? How detailed was this report? MR DOLO It was not detailed. It was totally not detailed. It was not detailed. MR SIBANYONI Could you tell the Committee did you subsequently make a written report regarding this incident? MR DOLO I do, repeat the question again, sorry. MR SIBANYONI Did you subsequently, after reporting to them, to him telephonically, did you subsequently make a written report? MR DOLO Yes, I do, I do. In some other incidents, depending to the type of the operation, whether they need further clarity to it. But, as a modus of operandi of the APLA, we do written reports. CHAIRPERSON Did you make a report, written report, in connection with this incident? MR DOLO With this one I went to Umtata, later. I don't know when. I don't recall when, to give them a written report. MR SIBANYONI Now, Mr Dolo, is there anything that you maybe, you have not told the Committee regarding this incident, you want to add regarding this incident? MR DOLO All the particulars of this incident I will talk about the operations that I have been involved in, as well as some of the operation I was involved to that they were all politically motivated. They were having the blessings of the "Commissariat" Department and we all acted on Commanders of the High Command. Orders of the High Command and they were justified by our ...(indistinct), that is the PAC as if you to their objectives of the PAC, the aims and objectives of the PAC that will be clause no 2 where they talk of the overthrow of the of the Settler's Colonies in all its forms and whereby an arms struggle was adopted as to be a main form of the struggle. And further, the piece goes further to mention our struggle, that it was the struggle of the oppression of the nation that it will be an African nation oppressed by Settler Colonists from Europe and our struggle was between these nations and we were not fighting in abstract. We were not merely fighting apartheid as an abstract as, after all, apartheid started 1948. Our struggles continue since the arrival of the Settlers in 1652. So, we were fighting the people, like in each and every struggle if you go through history, people don't fight in abstract, they compromise all those things and fight it, the oppressor. Be he then in South Africa, the white person, they were fighting such people. MR SIBANYONI That is all, Mr Chairman. MR LAX Mr Mthembu. CHAIRPERSON Mr Mthembu? MR LAX Hello, Jerome? MR MTHEMBU I have no questions, Mr Chairman. MR LAX Mr Dolo, what you have just told us, and if I try and understand what you have been telling us, was this part of your political training, that you were taught that the white man had from 1652, the very time that he put his foot in this country, he was the enemy. He was the enemy of the black man. Is that, is that the training, the type of training, ...(intervention) MR DOLO I started to be familiar with the politics of the PAC in 1984 and if you go through to history, when they arrived in 1652, that year there was war between the Africans and the Settlers, and one of the kings of the Africans was killed in one of those wars. MR LAX Yes, we've heard all of that, but are you saying part of your political training was that you were taught that the white man was an enemy from the moment he settled in the country? MR DOLO Yes. MR LAX And, there was in your mind, was there no room for the white man in South Africa and Azania? MR DOLO I mean if you are a visitor, you have to ask the occupants of the house ...(intervention) MR LAX Do you understand my question? In your mind was there any room for the white man in your Azania? MR DOLO They give themselves a room without the occupants of the house. MR LAX Do you want to answer the question? MR DOLO Do you want to repeat it again? MR LAX The question is quite simple, and really you are avoiding the question with your quite clever answer, but it's a very simple question. Is there room for white people in South Africa in terms of your philosophy? Yes or no? MR DOLO At that stage ...(intervention) MR LAX Not at that stage, at any stage. MR DOLO Whether there is a room for whites ...(intervention) MR LAX Even now, do you think that white people are legitimately in this country or not? MR DOLO As long as they recognise themselves as whites and as oppressors, then there is no room for them. MR LAX So, was your training that all white people were oppressors? It that what you were taught by you, your leaders and your instructors? MR DOLO It goes further than that, that there will be those so-called whites who want to associate themselves with the cause of the oppressed people ...(intervention) MR LAX Answer my question please, Mr Dolo, then we will finish this matter very quickly ...(intervention) MR PRIOR Sorry, he is trying to answer your question, he is saying there would be some whites who would identify themselves, let him finish. Who would identify themselves with the African people and their struggles, carry on, finish it. MR DOLO We were warned about, against those people, that they were there only to direct our struggle and to thwart it and to make sure that we didn't achieve our just objectives of a genuine liberation. MR LAX So any white person who showed any sympathy for the black people was simply a charlatan who was trying to undo, derail your struggle? MR DOLO It think that it the right word, a Charlatan. MR LAX So, in other words, all white people, whatever they, all white people, even those who appeared to oppose the apartheid regime, were also regarded as the enemy of the African people, is that correct? MR DOLO Yes. MR LAX It might surprise you to know that there were a number of white members of the PAC, even one of APLA. How was that possible on your, the theory you have just said to us? MR DOLO I didn't get it. MR LAX Well, we're saying to you there are white members of the PAC, there are white members, and were white members of APLA. Your High Command told us about that when they made a submission to us. On your version that is absolutely not possible. MR DOLO I was not aware of that. MR LAX Your instructions during 1992 to engage the white man, or the white Settlers as you put it, that came before the year of the Storm, the Great Storm, which was proclaimed in 1993, is that correct? I just want to understand you. MR DOLO Repeat is again. MR LAX Your instructions to engage, in other words attack and kill, the white man wherever you might find him, that was the policy or the instructions you were given by your APLA Commanders before the year of the Great Storm that was announced in 1993. MR DOLO Yes. MR LAX You were versed in the 15 rules or 15 aspects of discipline of the, of APLA, is that correct? MR DOLO Yes. MR LAX Did you know them all? MR DOLO If you can recall them, you will ...(intervention) MR LAX Sorry, please just come a bit closer to the microphone, again you are leaning right back. We can't hear you. Thanks. MR DOLO You were talking about 15 rules? MR LAX The 15 points of attention, as they were called. MR DOLO Yes. MR LAX Yes, were you familiar before the attack in November 1992 with all these rules, or points of attention? MR DOLO Yes, I was familiar. ADV SANDI Should one understand you to say that when you were trained, where those 15 rules incorporated with the main point of this training? MR DOLO They were part of the training. MR LAX Was there any special reference to captives or people that have captured, or people in your charge? Were they to be treated in any specific way? MR DOLO We were not subscribed to this Geneva agreement whereby there would be prisoners of war and they would be given such treatment. We never abided to that. MR LAX Were you actually instructed not to take prisoners? MR DOLO Those were my orders. MR LAX Did you hear of any commands or Comrades being given to take prisoners? MR DOLO Repeat again. MR LAX Did you ever hear of any commands given by APLA High Command to actually take prisoners? Let's say for interrogation purposes? MR DOLO I know we do interrogations. MR LAX Of white people? MR DOLO People would be captured and be interrogated. MR LAX Did you ever capture people? MR DOLO On myself, I never captured a white person interrogating. MR LAX But you know of instances where that was done? MR DOLO I take it that such things happened. MR LAX Do you just accept that it happened, or do you know of any incidents where that happened? MR DOLO I don't have any specific incident. MR LAX Thank you. Any, if you are taking property from the general population, and I am referring specifically to the black population, is there any particular way that you have to conduct yourselves? MR DOLO Yes. MR LAX Can you maybe just mention to the Committee how did you, how were you to go about obtaining property from the black population? If you had to use it for your purposes? MR DOLO I don't get you. You talk of a property that we have to get it from the community. MR LAX Yes. MR DOLO What? MR LAX Well, for example a motor vehicle or money or food or clothing. Was there any specific way that you had to approach the population or the public in order to acquire that property that you wanted? MR DOLO It goes with the environment to find the stuff you need. It will be governed by the terrain what conduct you applied. MR LAX Sorry, I didn't year the first part of your answer. Can you just repeat that? Now you are sitting a bit too close to that microphone, I'm sorry. That's, thanks. Just repeat that again. I couldn't, it was a bit distorted in my earphones. MR DOLO I am asking my lawyer what did I say. MR LAX Let me help you with the question. The question was, how were you to go about getting people to assist you with property or material, assets or vehicles, whatever it might be, in terms of those points of attention? The specifics in that points of attention, directing you as to what you should do, and how you should treat fellow black people if you needed to use them for anything or use anything of theirs. MR DOLO I think I say it would be governed by the terrain. ADV SANDI Yes, but what was the general rules? In what way, to put the question differently, in what way were you expected to conduct yourselves when dealing with a member of the community, from whom you want assistance, say in the form of getting his or her vehicle? How were you expected to go about interacting with that person? MR DOLO As I think I'll be broader in answering this. We believe that APLA got the mandate to continue to struggle from it's mandate from the Azanian people, the one we are talking about, and it goes further than that we have to be neighbourly when we are dealing with such people and we have to be kind and I think we have to add also what I have said that things will be governed also by the, as to give us a portion whereby we have to allow that what I am saying of the question of the terrain that will be governed also by the terrain. ADV SANDI Is that to say that, that being the rule, to be neighbourly as you have said, to be kind to this person. Should one understand you to say that it is not say that you would stick to those rules in a rigid fashion? MR DOLO So, you are putting aside what I have added after that, that the question of the terrain? ADV SANDI You will have to explain what you mean, Mr Dolo, by the terrain. MR DOLO If circumstances like the one I find myself in it involving this case, I take it all this question revolving around the way after all, whereby I was having a rifle on my left hand and there was this civilians, African people were approaching us, and I have to stop them to in request of the car. The manner of the approach I use, I use PAC decorum. I was governed after by it, which demands that we have to be, as I mentioned that we have to be neighbourly and that we have to be kind to our fellow Africans. MR LAX Mr Prior? CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR PRIOR Yes. MR LAX I want to read to you what, what I see in Mrs Booysen's statements at page 11 of bundle "B". She was the driver of this blue Isuzu van with a white canopy that you stopped. She was driving with three passengers, Mrs Dlepu, Mrs Ndepe and Mrs Molongwana. They were all schoolteachers. She said " When we were at Dipona, I saw a van parked near the road on the left, facing Sterkspruit. On the curve there appeared four black men on right of the road armed with firearms. The two armed with rifles and handgrenades, the other two armed with pistols and they carried a blue striped bag " Is that correct so far? MR DOLO Is it not correct, in terms of empowerment. It talks about rifles, I don't know how many rifles ...(intervention) MR LAX Two MR DOLO Apparently two rifles ...(intervention) MR LAX Two? MR DOLO There were no two rifles and further there were no grenades. MR PRIOR Well you said in your begining of your evidence you had two R4's and F24 and stick grenades. MR DOLO Where I was based ...(intervention) MR LAX Just for the record, this is on page 11 of the second bundle, just so we are all on this. MR PRIOR I go on, "They pointed us with the firearms ordering us to stop. I immediately stopped the van. I heard them say "no" many times, and by that time we were all screaming. The other man instructed Mrs Dlepu to alight the van and ordered me to drive to Sterkspruit" Is this correct? MR DOLO I don't get it. It's no first, then we were ...(intervention) MR PRIOR Alright, before the no, did you point your firearm at them? MR DOLO I even showed the court, this hearing, how I approached them, that I used my right hand to stop them as I was having the rifle in my left hand. MR PRIOR Alright, so obviously ...(intervention) MR DOLO I was not aware of the other Comrades, of what they were doing at the stage. MR PRIOR So, as far as you are concerned, no firearms were pointed at these ladies? MR DOLO I am talking about myself. MR PRIOR As far as he is concerned, as far as he is aware, no firearms were pointed at these women. MR DOLO Who? MR LAX What he is saying is that he doesn't know what the others were doing, as far as he is concerned, he didn't point the firearm. MR DOLO That's what I am saying. MR LAX It's quite conceivable the others might have, but he doesn't know, he didn't see. MR PRIOR Is it correct that you instructed the driver to drive to Sterkspruit? MR DOLO I think firstly, I instructed her to drive us to Sterkspruit, but after that I changed again. MR PRIOR She says she was afraid of the weapons. She couldn't drive. I gain the impression from this that she must have been terrified. MR DOLO I was not in her mind of what, why she, what was she afraid of? MR PRIOR As far as you could see, did she behave as if she was terrified? Incapable of even driving the vehicle? MR DOLO If, when we were inside the car, we were able to conceal the weapons so the question of being threatened, it's put that all aside. MR PRIOR Alright, if I understand your evidence then, you were on your best behaviour in the true PAC/APLA fashion dealing with these people of your own community, requesting her in a very civil and neighbourly way her vehicle, is that correct? And because of that courteous request they allowed you to enter and board upon the vehicle and eventually drive off with the vehicle, is that correct? MR DOLO Repeat again. MR PRIOR Because of your manner, your gentle manner, your neighbourly manner, your courteous manner, you were able then to obtain the vehicle and drive away with it, is that right? MR DOLO Yes. MR PRIOR Where did you take the vehicle to? MR DOLO I don't know the place, I forgot the area where we drop it. MR PRIOR Where, in Sterkspruit? MR DOLO When we ...(inaudible) towards the town of Sterkspruit or the surrounding ...(intervention) MR PRIOR Did you leave it there? Did you abandon it there? MR DOLO We drove to, we left towards Sterkspruit that's the whole area. MR PRIOR Did you go where you were meant to go, your destination? MR DOLO We didn't reach our destination, due the lack of the fuel of the car. MR PRIOR So you ran out of fuel? MR DOLO Yes. MR PRIOR And you just left the car on the side of the road? MR DOLO Not on the side of the road, there were this area next to it then I drove to one of the schools there, then I left the car there. MR PRIOR And left the keys in ...(intervention) MR DOLO I left the keys inside the car. MR PRIOR Do you know if the owner got the vehicle back? MR DOLO As we noticed, when we were driving to our area there was a roadblock which was mounted by the police, inside the Sterkspruit. I take it out of their investigation the car will be discovered sooner and they would be able then to receive their car. MR PRIOR I see. So you knew the police had mounted an investigation who were looking for you? MR DOLO Who? MR PRIOR The police. MR DOLO Were looking? MR PRIOR For you people, your unit. MR DOLO I take it the roadblock was there for that. MR PRIOR Now, I just want to ...(intervention) ADV SANDI Mr Prior, sorry. How far was this roadblock from the point were you left this vehicle? MR DOLO There was a hill which we had to go to it and the roadblock was mounted when you pass through this hill. There was this question of the fuel of the car and since I see the hill and decided I don't think we will make it. Then I decided to park the car next to the school. As we were moving not far away from this roadblock then that's how we noticed it. MR PRIOR Now your objective there was to kill white people driving on that road. MR DOLO Yes. MR PRIOR To put your evidence in a nutshell. Now you arrived at that spot by truck you had obtained a lift there. MR DOLO Yes. MR PRIOR Was that the first time that you had get to that spot and been at that area? MR DOLO Yes. MR PRIOR I don't, could you maybe explain in the light of that reply your evidence at par.6 of your affidavit, page 2 of the new bundle "B". You said, "the target was identified by myself". Yes, on the 11th of November, my understanding is that was the first day, or the first time that you had gone to that particular area or that particular part of the road. MR DOLO I am still searching for this. MR PRIOR Page 2 of bundle "B", par. 6 of his affidavit. First line of that paragraph. MR DOLO If you take it from my affidavit as the one who gave target, that's how we came about that, that I was the one who gave the, who ordered and gave which target has to be attacked. MR PRIOR It's just interesting, you'd get the instructions from Sibelo Palma, and Mphahlele. You then go on to say "the target was identified by myself". Do you mean from that, that you had at that stage identified the Herschel Road, that Sterkspruit Lady Grey Road as your target, your intended target for this operation? MR DOLO As the Regional Commander we, I talk about myself, I was given powers, to put it, and further as a guerrilla army of which it is not a regular army, we were using initiative in deciding which attack needed to be carried out. So, out of the data I had about the target which has to attacked then I shoot this one and I informed my Superior about which target I had to, I am going to attack and after the attack. MR PRIOR Before the attack you identified this particular piece of road as being the place where you were going to go and kill white people driving in vehicles, is that right? MR DOLO Yes. MR PRIOR Are you saying that you then communicated that to your Superiors? MR DOLO I communicated that there was going to be an attack. MR PRIOR Is that all you said? MR DOLO Yes. MR PRIOR You never gave any details of who you were going to attack, how you were going to attack and where you were going to attack? MR DOLO I told that I, we were going to attack whites as they were the target. MR PRIOR And you got approval from Lethlapha Mphahlele to go and do that? MR DOLO Sorry, what did you say? MR PRIOR You obtained approval to go and do that? MR DOLO Yes. MR PRIOR And then you launched this particular attack on the 19th of November 1992 ...(intervention) MR DOLO Yes. MR PRIOR With your unit? MR DOLO Yes. MR PRIOR Had you done any surveillance of that area before the 19th of November '92 when you actually carried out this attack? MR DOLO I was on that road before that attack. I knew the area and I don't know whether I have my submission here to the TRC. There is something I want to read. If you can go through my application to the TRC ...(intervention) MR PRIOR Just refer us to which page of it in the bundle or paragraph. MR DOLO That will be page 2. MR PRIOR Yes. MR DOLO It's dealing about places. MR PRIOR Yes, I can see it. It's paragraph 9(a)(iii). MR DOLO There is also mention of Lady Grey that places ...(intervention) MR PRIOR Yes, you say there Diepkloof, Orlando, Ficksburg, Lady Grey, Zastron ...(intervention) MR DOLO Yes. MR PRIOR And Eikenhof. MR DOLO By Lady Grey and also I made this attack also, I never specify it was meant only to this attack. We attacked cars even before this one in the road. CHAIRPERSON You say "we attacked cars before this one on that road". When was that? MR DOLO I don't know how many days before that one. CHAIRPERSON And what was the result of the attacks? MR DOLO We never heard anything in relation to question of a death or people who were wounded. CHAIRPERSON Did you damage the cars? Did you hit them? MR MBANDAZAYO Mr Chairman, I think one of them is going to be subject of hearing if I am not mistaken. ADV SANDI Which one do you have in mind, Mr Mbandazayo? MR MBANDAZAYO Can you come again Mr Chairman. ADV SANDI Which particular incident are you referring to, are you able to point out the ...(intervention) MR MBANDAZAYO I am saying, Mr Chairman, if I am not mistaken as he correctly put it, that it was not the first time, there is in this area, if I am not mistaken, Mr Chairman, which is going to the subject of hearing, unless I am mistaken, I am not sure. MR PRIOR Well, let him tell us about it, Mr Mbandazayo. CHAIRPERSON He said it was on that road. "We attacked cars before this one on that road". That's what he told us a moment ago. We are asking him to tell us about it. MR PRIOR You started off saying a couple of days before this attack ...(intervention) MR DOLO Yes. MR PRIOR You attacked some other cars. MR DOLO Yes. MR PRIOR So tell us a bit more about that. MR DOLO I ...(intervention) MR PRIOR What did you, who went with ...(intervention) MR DOLO I think it was the same unit. I was with it. I think so. I was with the same unit. I am ...(intervention) MR PRIOR Did you have the same weapons? MR DOLO There were then no R4. Instead of a R4 there will be a stand submachine gun and there will be no pistols, instead there will be a, what we normally called molotovs, which were petrol bombs. And others will be armed with knives. MR PRIOR Just to clear up this thing about pistols. MR DOLO A pistol? MR PRIOR I understood your previous evidence what, that you had revolvers, not pistols. MR DOLO Can you say, what are you saying? MR PRIOR Well, which pistols did you use in this, in the first. So there was one revolver and one pistol. MR DOLO Sorry, for the correction of the record, it was, I think it was a .38 special, not a pistol. MR PRIOR Okay. MR DOLO Only one and this stand submachine gun and petrol bombs, and I think others will be armed with knives. CHAIRPERSON What is a 9mm short? Isn't that a pistol. MR DOLO It is a pistol. CHAIRPERSON Well, that's what you said in your affidavit. A 38 special and a 9mm short. MR MBANDAZAYO Mr Chairman, I think he's answering about the other incident, what were they armed with. Not in this one, Mr Chairman. MR PRIOR So the pistols wasn't there, but the revolver was, is that what you're saying? MR DOLO I think so, yes I think so. MR PRIOR No, because when you said pistols in the plural I was puzzled, because I thought there was one .38 special, which is a revolver and one 9mm. CHAIRPERSON How many cars did you attack on this previous occasion? MR DOLO More than one. CHAIRPERSON How many more? MR DOLO I don't know how many, but I don't think it would be more than three. CHAIRPERSON Did you throw the molotovs? MR DOLO Yes. I was there at the road instructing them of how to attack and how to lay ambush. MR PRIOR So was this a training operation, not an operation per se? MR DOLO It was an operation and partly a training exercise. MR PRIOR Where these reinforced molotovs or just ordinary molotovs? MR DOLO What happened? MR PRIOR Where these reinforced molotovs or just ordinary ones? In other words did you wrap them around with extra nails and all that sort of things, or were they, just ordinary ones? MR DOLO We're talking about petrol bombs? MR PRIOR Yes, molotovs. MR DOLO They can't be wrapped with nails. MR PRIOR Some of the ones we've seen have had extra stuff wound round the side. MR DOLO Then they were not reinforced, these ones. MR PRIOR I'm just interested to follow up briefly on the fact that the attacks that you launched a few days before the 19th of November, that is this matter Herschel, was partly a training run. I that, do I understand you correctly? MR DOLO Partly that of training. MR PRIOR To what, did you have to see how the molotovs would explode or how the, your unit would react? Just explain that to me, why was it necessary to do this training on that piece of the road? MR DOLO It was to orientate the recruits and it goes further that a question of orientation and also in that a part, it was that of operation. MR PRIOR How did you get that, if I can refer to it as the training attack? I differentiate it from the attack we are now dealing with. How did you get there, did you also get a lift there to that? MR DOLO No, we travelled by foot as part of training. We have to travel many kilometres. MR PRIOR Through the veld? MR DOLO Through the road and through the veld. MR PRIOR And did you retreat back to your base before you came again on the 19th of November. MR DOLO Yes. MR PRIOR And you say, it was the same unit that you used? Scorpion, and ...(intervention) MR DOLO Yes it was the same unit. MR PRIOR Roger and Kleintjie? Now ...(intervention) MR LAX Before we go on, Mr Prior, how many, you said there were other attacks that you committed, other operations. This is just one you have told us about. What other ones were there? MR DOLO I think it was the third time when we carry out this one. We were there on two occasions before we embark on this one. MR PRIOR Okay, so you said this one was a few days before the ...(intervention) MR DOLO The other one. MR PRIOR The fatal attack. When was the one before that? MR DOLO They were just a day, we attacked this day and then go again the second day to do the same thing. MR PRIOR So you travelled more than 16 kilometres on foot? MR DOLO Yes. MR PRIOR To the site of this place? MR DOLO Yes. MR PRIOR You hadn't attacked. You went back the next day, you travelled all the way back again. MR DOLO Yes. MR PRIOR You went back ...(intervention) MR DOLO As part of exercise. CHAIRPERSON Did you go back to the same place? MR DOLO Yes. CHAIRPERSON But surely you must have anticipated the police being there, if you carried out attack after attack at the same place on the road? MR DOLO Lucky for us there were no police to pursue us. MR PRIOR Why haven't you told us about these matters in your amnesty application? MR DOLO As it is written in my application, I mentioned just Lady Grey. I thought I will be asked at length what I was referring to a later degree then specifically to this one. MR PRIOR Well why didn't you mention it in your affidavit? MR DOLO The TRC requested only in this attack. They never asked me at length. MR PRIOR Well they didn't know about the other ones. Why didn't you mention them in your ...(intervention) MR DOLO So how did they know about this one? MR PRIOR Because this one was in your application, and the police also knew about this matter being investigated. MR MBANDAZAYO Mr Chairman, I don't think it was also, it was in their application just said Lady Grey, Mr Chairman, and I think after that they asked him what does he mean about that and he replied to that. I don't know whether it's here, but here in the application is only written Lady Grey. CHAIRPERSON In this application he says one "Lady Grey and Zastron I ambushed white persons" MR PRIOR You see, Mr Mbandazayo, this is the first anyone has ever heard about this thing. These additional attacks. MR DOLO I was referring to injuries and if they were also dead, that's why I mentioned that in one Lady Grey. As I believe prior that in the other attacks there was no, it was never mentioned in the media, or we never killed any persons, I take it that. MR PRIOR But you don't know that. It's quite possible you injured some people. They just never mentioned it in the media. MR DOLO I don't think so we injured any person. MR PRIOR You see the format at point 9(a)(i) doesn't say injuries or murders or anything like that. It says acts, admissions or offences. You understand? MR MBANDAZAYO Please Mr Chairman. MR PRIOR Form 9(a)(i) on the actual form doesn't specify people who were injured or not. It just say acts, omissions or offences and there are some acts, omissions and offences you have not told us about. You understand Mr Mbandazayo? MR MBANDAZAYO Yes, Mr chairman, I could see that, but Mr Chairman, I have request the Committee because the problem here is that, you know, the way these forms are filled it's such that it's, for instance the date, it's May 1993 and I don't think all these things happened in May 1993, Diepkloof, Orlando, Ficksburg and Lady Grey. So, there is no sufficient details, Mr Chairman. I wish the Committee to bring the ones did last year that people who are filling these forms are unassisted and they are filling their own, they don't understand technicalities involved in what they are expected to do, most of the times. CHAIRPERSON And what was the affidavit expected to do? Wasn't it requested months ago by the TRC? MR MBANDAZAYO I was, the only time I became aware of this, that they wanted to form this, this hearing was scheduled, and they were just referring to certain incident and I want to obtain for that the particular incident. I thought that the others, because I knew that he is involved in other operations and I have been told also now today, told by the TRC, that I have to make affidavit in certain incidents. Some other, they are still going to be scheduled, as is also the case with other applicant. CHAIRPERSON Well, if he hasn't applied for amnesty in respect of other incidents, they won't be scheduled, will they? He won't be granted amnesty. MR MBANDAZAYO I agree with you, Mr Chairman, if that's the case, Mr Chairman, but that's the matter we are looking into because he is telling me that there was a fax which was sent, requesting certain particulars regarding certain incidents, but unfortunately, Mr Chairman, I think my understanding is that it was, it was sent to the prison authorities, and prison authorities sent it to the PAC offices in Port Elizabeth. I haven't heard, I haven't received it, what is actually they wanted regard with which incident, But I've had to tackle this one because this one, it was already scheduled. So, I don't know whether in those, these they appear. I'm not sure about, Mr Chairman. MR PRIOR Mr Chairman, maybe if I can just assist Mr Mbandazayo, it is correct. He came in at a fairly late stage, that he was, that it was indicated that he was acting for Mr Dolo in this particular matter and to that end, knowing that this matter was scheduled in Aliwal North, undertook at his earliest convenience, given the logistics involved and his involvement in East London, was to obtain an affidavit from Mr Dolo on this specific matter. CHAIRPERSON There was no enquery made before for further details for the amnesty application. MR PRIOR I understand there was, but I don't have those details now. He did them to the Committee, the evidence analyst is here, who prepared the matter, and I am no doubt her file is available, Mr Chairman, and I can present those if they are necessary. CHAIRPERSON Well, as has been pointed out, there is a number of incidents refferred to, but only one date, May 1993. I would have certainly thought that there would have been some attempt to clarify that. MR PRIOR Mr Chairman, I may say that Diepkloof, Orlando, Ficksburg, Eikenhof form the subject matter of amnesty hearings in other provinces. Lady Grey and Zastron, well, I don't know if this witness is referring to Zastron, because there was certainly two attacks that form the subject matter of these hearings at the Sterkspruit Mayaputi bridge, which is a substantial, well, it's a distance away from this present locality. So, I don't know if this witness is being getting confused with those matters. There certainly, petrol bombs were used or at least one incident a petrol bomb was used. So, I don't know if he is getting confused with the matters that occurred in the Lady Grey district and those matters which occurred in the Zastron district. MR MBANDAZAYO I was trying get that, Mr Chairman, and then it seems if it's not what we are talking about, Mr Prior, it's that it's not one which is subject of the hearing of the Committee, he is talking about the same place, Mr Chairman. MR PRIOR Mr Chairman, I will simply place on record that I have consulted with the investigators involved and this is the first time we, I have knowledge, or bear knowledge now, having heard from the applicant, of other attacks at the same locality on the Sterkspruit Lady Grey bridge. Anyway, I will make enquiries Mr Chairman. MR SIBANYONI Mr Prior, have you noted that the, these were said, the applicant has voluntarily disclosed that information anyway. You didn't know about it, we didn't know about it. MR PRIOR Yes, I'll have to check its veracity. It may, it is so that he is now coming out with it in reply to a question regarding training, but I will certainly have to check on it to see whether in fact that fact occurred. So, you went to a spot on a number of, well, at least two occasions, three occasions. Now when you went on the 19th of November did your unit not know then that what you were going to attack were in fact vehicles and white people in vehicles? MR DOLO As a commander, I am the one who has to inform them of what to attack, and what not to attack. MR PRIOR But you were going there repeatedly to attack vehicles driven by white people. You had been there on three previous occasions. I beg your pardon, two previous occasions. MR DOLO Maybe on their mind they thought maybe it's still the process, the continuation of this training. MR PRIOR You see, I don't quite understand why you said that when you arrived there, you informed them that they were to attack whites. MR DOLO Yes. MR PRIOR But they had already know that on two previous occasions. MR DOLO That was the orientation. MR PRIOR Alright. MR LAX Sorry, Mr Prior. I mean your evidence previously was that you had never been to that place yourself. That was your previous evidence. Now you are telling us you went there two times before. Please explain this for us. MR DOLO Where is it stated, where I say I never been there? MR LAX In your testimony to us this afternoon, earliest part of your testimony, you said didn't know that place, you hadn't been there before. It was your first time to go there. MR DOLO I arrived at Sterkspruit 1992, around, I think around June or July I'd been in that place since then. Up to ...(intervention) MR LAX Let's leave it, the record will speak for itself, I'm just putting it to you. MR PRIOR Thank you, Mr Chairman. Now the vehicle, the first vehicle that came along you gave the instruction to attack, to attack. Is that correct? MR DOLO Yes. MR PRIOR Could you see the, who the occupants were in that vehicle from where you were positioned? MR DOLO Not properly. MR PRIOR What was obscuring your view? MR DOLO I won't be sure when I saw the car. MR PRIOR Where they to far away from you? MR DOLO They were in the curve, the car would be approaching us from the curve. MR PRIOR And the, sorry, who was the lookout? MR DOLO It was Kleintjie. MR PRIOR Was he on the hard ground, was he on a hill somewhere? MR DOLO He was just next to the road. MR PRIOR And where were you people, were you not next to the road? MR DOLO We were also next to the road, but far away from him, a distance for him. MR PRIOR So you were ahead of him? MR DOLO Yes. MR PRIOR Or behind, Mr Chairman. MR LAX Can you just estimate the distance for us, how far was he from you? MR DOLO I say around a distance of about, hundred meters. MR LAX Same as a soccer ground? MR DOLO Yes, that would be a hundred meters of ground. MR PRIOR So when he waved his hat in the air as you had the pre-arranged signal, you knew that this was now the target? MR DOLO Yes. MR PRIOR Were you surprised to see that Mr Schroeder, I think he was the driver at that stage, he was a coloured man? MR DOLO I learned that when I arrived Thursday at Goedemoed from one of the wardens there, who was also a coloured person that's what he told me. All along I didn't know. MR PRIOR Well, presumably Kleintjie can tell us, our co-applicant, can tell us what he saw, what you, you acting on his signal. MR DOLO That's it. MR PRIOR You didn't allow that vehicle to came close enough for you to make a positive identification? MR DOLO That was not part of the plan. MR PRIOR If you had seen this was a Coloured man driving the vehicle would you have attacked it? MR DOLO It is difficult to say. MR PRIOR Why is it difficult? Your plan was to attack white people, if you saw a Coloured man there who is clearly not white would you have still shot that vehicle? MR DOLO We have two kinds of Coloureds, so called Coloureds, after all. We have Coloureds who look like me, we have Coloureds who look like you. MR PRIOR Would you kill the Coloureds who look like me? MR DOLO If the ...(intervention) MR PRIOR Answer the question. MR DOLO As the signal was given and it was difficult to notice the person, but he, how differ is he from you? MR PRIOR Please answer my question. Would you shoot a Coloured person that looked like me, that was your words? MR DOLO In that incident, as it happened, yes. MR PRIOR And someone that looked like you, a Coloured person, would you not shoot that person? MR DOLO I don't think so. MR LAX Is it not so that it wouldn't have made any difference, if you saw the signal you would have shot anyway, regardless what was in the vehicle, because you would not have had time to decide whether to shoot or not? MR DOLO We would be in the position to see the occupants, as they would be closer to us, so if they were black people I would be in a position to see them. MR LAX So that if Kleintjie had made a mistake, you could still countermand it, is that what you're saying? MR DOLO Yes. MR PRIOR Is it correct that Kleintjie only gave you the signal that a vehicle was approaching? MR DOLO And the signal was also for the occupants of the car. MR LAX The signal was that if a vehicle with white occupants approach, they would shoot. That was the signal. MR PRIOR So you would not be in a position to see who the occupants were before you shot? MR DOLO Repeat again. MR PRIOR You were not in a position to see who the occupants were before you opened fire. MR DOLO Yes, I wont be in a, I was not in a position. MR PRIOR That vehicle came to a stop, is it correct, and the occupants got out. The female and the driver. MR DOLO It passed through us as it was speeding. Then from a distance as we were shooting to it, then it stopped. MR PRIOR Alright, you ran up to that vehicle. MR DOLO Yes. MR PRIOR Were you shooting all the time? MR DOLO Yes, from the car. MR PRIOR And then who, the female person got out. We know that was Mrs Brummer, and Mr Schroeder, the driver, he also got out of the bakkie. Is that correct? MR DOLO Yes. MR PRIOR Then you could see he was a Coloured man? MR DOLO No. MR PRIOR But you could see it was a female, a white female? MR DOLO They were from a distance, I say, I would say more than hundred metres. MR PRIOR But you were chasing them all the time. MR DOLO The time I was shooting them I have to stopped so that I could aim. MR PRIOR And they were running away? MR DOLO They were running away. MR PRIOR They weren't posing any threat to you? MR DOLO Yes. CHAIRPERSON I would just like to clarify something. Mr Prior has been asking you about Mr Schroeder and Mrs Brummer. Were they the only two people who got out? MR DOLO I could not see. The time when they were stopping the car, there was this approaching car. It was not, when it stopped, the approaching car it was not far from them, where they stopped. So that's how they were able to get to the second car. CHAIRPERSON But how many of them were there that got out? MR DOLO When we reached the car that they abandoned there was no one inside it. CHAIRPERSON How many got out. It's an easy question. MR DOLO All the person were on the car? CHAIRPERSON Yes, how many were there? MR DOLO I don't know how many were there. CHAIRPERSON As I understand it, one was the woman who was dead in the other vehicle, right? One was the man who was shot, left lying on the road, right? MR DOLO Yes. CHAIRPERSON Then there was another man who you later passed as he was going along the road. MR DOLO Then I will say maybe, I would take it ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON Is that no so ...(intervention) MR DOLO That there were three. CHAIRPERSON Don't you know how many people got out of the car you were shooting at? MR DOLO I, I only ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON Didn't you pay attention? MR DOLO The time they were stopping the car and they were getting out of it, there was this approaching car which was not far from them and it stopped for them, and they get inside that car. CHAIRPERSON But only one of them got into that car, didn't they? MR DOLO Sorry? CHAIRPERSON Only one of them got into the approaching car, didn't they? MR DOLO All of them. CHAIRPERSON Who of them got into the approaching car? MR DOLO I think so. MR PRIOR Couldn't you see the driver of that car was an African person? MR DOLO From their position, from their position, I was not able. MR PRIOR Well then how did you know you were shooting at which people if you couldn't see, even recognise the difference between a white person and a black person? MR DOLO I trusted my Comrade who gave me the signal. MR PRIOR So then to go back to my previous ...(intervention) MR DOLO In passing through me I noticed that they were white occupants inside the car. MR PRIOR Okay, let's leave it, it's irrelevant. So when that vehicle passed your position, you saw that there were white people in the vehicle? MR DOLO Yes. I take it they were white people, those were inside it. MR PRIOR You just accepted they were white? MR DOLO Yes. MR PRIOR You see, we know Mr James Tsemane was a black man, I mean he stopped to assist these people who you were intent on killing there. MR DOLO That was not the car that passed us. MR PRIOR Now the vehicle that stopped to assist the female person, Mrs Brummer, running away and Mr Schroeder, presumably. MR DOLO We learned that when we approached the car and we passed through it, that one of the dead person was a African one. MR PRIOR Yes, but he came from the opposite, he came from Sterkspruit? MR DOLO Yes. MR PRIOR He had to stop. MR DOLO Yes. MR PRIOR The female got into the vehicle. Did you see that? MR DOLO Yes. MR PRIOR That wasn't a taxi, it was a bakkie, it was an open bakkie, sorry, with a canopy. If you look at the photographs, bundle "B", page 23 and 24, 23 and 24, Mr Chairman. But maybe the situation needs clarification. The first vehicle, the vehicle that you attacked, having received the signal from you co-applicant, Kleintjie, came to a standstill, is that right? MR DOLO Yes. MR PRIOR The occupants then got out and ran away. MR DOLO Yes. MR PRIOR You followed after them, shooting at them? MR DOLO They went to another car. MR PRIOR We getting there. You followed after the shooting? MR DOLO As they were running, we didn't shoot them. We were chasing them. MR PRIOR I see. A vehicle then approached from Sterkspruit. MR DOLO It was not far from them. MR PRIOR Is that the vehicle we see on photograph, at page 23? MR DOLO I think it's the one. MR PRIOR A bakkie. MR DOLO Yes. MR PRIOR A pick-up. MR DOLO I think it's the one. MR PRIOR That vehicle then stopped and you say all, both people got into the vehicle? MR DOLO I think so. MR PRIOR I want to suggest to you only Mrs Brummer got into the vehicle. MR DOLO Okay. MR PRIOR And I'll tell you later, a little, a little while later, I'll tell you why a little later. That vehicle then turned around, is that right? It did a U-turn and then went towards Sterkspruit? MR DOLO Yes. MR PRIOR And you shot at that vehicle? MR DOLO Yes. MR PRIOR That's the vehicle that Mr Tsemane was driving? MR DOLO Okay. MR PRIOR That vehicle then went off the road and then went down the bank, is that correct? At the bridge, is that right? And you say you went up to that vehicle and saw the driver was dead and the female was dead? MR DOLO Yes, I presume. MR PRIOR You never went close, you looked from the road? MR DOLO Yes, I presume that they were dead. MR PRIOR You never went down to the vehicle? MR DOLO I was in the position to see. MR PRIOR From the road way, from the bridge? MR DOLO Just next to the bridge and as I'm passing through the bridge. MR PRIOR Yes, you never climbed of the bridge and went down to where the vehicle was lying? MR DOLO Yes, yes. MR PRIOR And then you saw Mr Schroeder in the road? MR DOLO Yes. MR PRIOR And was he still alive at that stage? MR DOLO I couldn't say. MR PRIOR Well why not? Was he breathing? MR DOLO I didn't listen to his pulse. MR PRIOR But when you went up to him, was he lying on his face, on his back or what? MR DOLO I think he was having full of blood in his face. MR PRIOR And was he struggling, was he moving, was he quiet? MR DOLO He was motionless. MR PRIOR Who had shot him just before that? Had anybody shot him? MR DOLO I think it was Scorpion. MR PRIOR So, was that before you, was that after you had observed the vehicle that had gone off the road, you've said you presumed they were dead, the two occupants of that vehicle. MR DOLO What I say? MR PRIOR You said you observed from the road way, from the bridge you could see that the people inside the bakkie that went of the road, that was Mrs Brummer and Mr Tsemane, they were dead. MR DOLO Yes. MR PRIOR You then paid attention to the other person, that's Mr Schroeder, Schroeder. I'm just giving them names, the man lying on the tar, the surface? MR DOLO He not so closely to the car. MR PRIOR Okay, but you then went to him? MR DOLO Yes. MR PRIOR And you say he'd already been shot by Scorpion? MR DOLO Yes. MR PRIOR Had you heard that shots? MR DOLO Yes. MR PRIOR Have you seen where Scorpion was shooting? MR DOLO I was not forget the immediate stage. MR PRIOR Was that, that person running away as well? MR DOLO Which one? MR PRIOR The man you eventually shot in the back of the head. MR DOLO Was he running away? MR PRIOR Yes. MR DOLO The time they were shooting him? MR PRIOR Yes. MR DOLO Yes, they were chasing him. MR PRIOR And shooting him in the back? MR DOLO They were chasing him, I don't know where they shoot him. MR PRIOR So, when you then paid attention after you had looked at the bakkie you went to where Scorpion was, and the others presumably, and the man lying on the ground. MR DOLO Yes. MR PRIOR Why did you then put your rifle at the back of his head? MR DOLO I was making sure that he was dead. MR PRIOR Because he was still living? MR DOLO I don't know. MR PRIOR Then why was it necessary to shoot him in the head if he was dead? MR DOLO I was making sure. MR PRIOR Was that with a R4 rifle? MR DOLO Yes. MR PRIOR And as you put it you blew his head, is that right? MR DOLO Yes. MR PRIOR And then what did you do? MR DOLO I call on my Comrades. MR PRIOR Sorry, was this now the attack was over, this was, did you regard the attack as being successful? MR DOLO Yes. MR PRIOR Now you had to retreat? MR DOLO Yes. MR PRIOR Why didn't you simply as you did in your training, on the two previous occasions, simply run away or move away on foot? MR DOLO We decided to use the car. MR PRIOR You decided to obtain a vehicle by force, is that right? MR DOLO Not by force. MR PRIOR And that when the teachers came on the scene? MR DOLO Yes. MR PRIOR And there was dead bodies lying on the roadway, and you were with fire-arms, and then you obtained their vehicle and you shot at the other person in the 4 X 4? MR DOLO I didn't shot at the person. MR PRIOR But ordered that he be shot at? MR DOLO I ordered. MR PRIOR And you could see he was, what, a white man, black man ...(intervention) MR DOLO He was a white person. MR PRIOR And why was he to be shot? MR DOLO Because he was a white person. MR PRIOR Not because he was blocking your way? MR DOLO Not because he was blocking our way. MR PRIOR But, you never pursued him? MR DOLO We never pursued him. MR PRIOR Why not? MR DOLO I decided not to pursue him. MR PRIOR Why not, he was your target? MR DOLO It was the question of time. MR PRIOR But you were going in the same direction? MR DOLO He reversed his car so we going the same direction. MR PRIOR You could have followed him quite easily and killed him, is that right? MR DOLO That was not part of the plan. I decided that we withdraw. CHAIRPERSON Mr Prior you will be some time, will you? MR PRIOR ...(indistinct) I need to canvas, I need to ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON Yes, and we will be sitting, we started very late today. We will be sitting late, what time? MR PRIOR I'm in the hands of the Committee, up to the translators as well, the jail has no problem. CHAIRPERSON The jail has no problems, then I think we should take a short adjournment now. The translators have been working very hard for a couple of hours or more and we will take a short adjournment of 15 minutes, no longer than 15 minutes and then we'll then carry on till we reach a suitable stage. MR PRIOR Thank you Mr Chairman, will you all please rise. HEARING ADJOURNS ON RESUMPTION MR PRIOR Thank you, Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON For the information of members of the public we intend to adjourn at 17h00 this afternoon and to commence at 09h00 tomorrow morning. MR PRIOR Thank you, Mr Chairman. Mr Dolo, I refer to paragraph 11 of your affidavit, page 3 of bundle "B". You said: "The other occupants were not there." That's after you had found the driver you say of the taxi, and a white woman dead. "Scorpion saw them and he gave chase and he shot one, and I shot him. The other one disappeared." MR DOLO So what do you want to know? MR PRIOR Are you saying there were four people that were initially travelling, sorry, there were four people that had been attacked on that occasion? MR DOLO Yes. MR PRIOR And was the fourth person the person you tried to run down? MR DOLO Yes. MR PRIOR That you referred to in paragraph 12? MR DOLO Yes. MR PRIOR Well, why didn't you simply shoot him? MR DOLO I was not having a gun. MR PRIOR Well, you had your R4? Why did Kleintjie shoot him? MR DOLO I tried to run on him and I stated in my affidavit. MR PRIOR He was on the road? MR DOLO He was not on the road, he was just next to the road. MR PRIOR And you, well, he was running alongside the road. MR DOLO He was not running alongside the road. MR PRIOR What was he doing? MR DOLO He was making a hiking. MR PRIOR Was this someone else? You see, on our information, Mr Schroeder and Mrs Brummer were travelling from Lady Grey to Sterkspruit. They were shot at, they left their vehicle. Mr Tsemane came along and picked up Mrs Brummer, leaving Mr Schroeder behind. You then shot at that vehicle, Mr Tsemane's vehicle which then left the road and went down off the bridge. There was no fourth person. MR DOLO There was a fourth person. MR PRIOR Was he just someone else that was just hitchhiking along that piece of road? MR DOLO There was a white person as we were approaching Herschel who was making a hike, hiking through us. MR PRIOR Oh, I see, this was on, this was someone who wasn't in the bakkie? MR DOLO I'm not sure about that. MR PRIOR But he was some distance away from where the bakkie had left the road? MR DOLO Yes. MR PRIOR I see. ADV SANDI Mr Prior, sorry, Mr Dolo, I understand amongst many people this is a very common way of speaking when a person is speaking to show him that you are listening and you are following him and you just keep on saying "yes, yes, yes". I think you can end up running into problems with that. Do you hear what I am saying to you? MR DOLO Yes, I understand. MR PRIOR Mr Dolo, I just need clarity, because the situation might become confusing. So this person that you refer to in paragraph 12 was a white person hitchhiking, but he was a distance away from where the attack had taken place? MR DOLO That's what it is. MR PRIOR Well, and he wasn't injured. You simply tried to run him down, and he moved away or ran off and you left him. MR DOLO Yes, that's it. CHAIRPERSON Could I just, I may have originally been responsible for this. Was this the fourth or the third person, Mr Prior? MR PRIOR I understand from the witness now there was a fourth person. CHAIRPERSON Why? It says there was Mrs Brummer, there was Schroeder who was shot by the two of them, and the other person disappeared. Where does the fourth one come in? If you look at paragraph 11 of his affidavit. MR PRIOR In paragraph 10 he says: :We found the driver of the taxi and a white woman dead" CHAIRPERSON Yes, so that's one occupant. MR PRIOR It's two. CHAIRPERSON The driver of the taxi is the person who picked her up. It's not the person ...(intervention) MR PRIOR We are talking about people on the scene, Mr Chairman, at this stage. CHAIRPERSON I thought you were talking about who came out of the bakkie. MR PRIOR It says the other occupants were not there, occupants refers to two others. CHAIRPERSON Yes. MR PRIOR Scorpion gave chase, shot one, the other one disappeared. CHAIRPERSON Yes, the one who got shot was Schroeder. MR PRIOR So, the white man hiking, sorry I was under the impression that the white man hiking was, was ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON Mr Schroeder. MR LAX It could be the third, it could also be someone else, we don't actually know what happened to that person, sorry. What I'm trying to say in order to clarify this is it doesn't help to take it any further. He doesn't know who this person is, the applicant doesn't know this. He assumed it might be that person that ran away, but it could just as easily have been anyone else hiking on the road. MR DOLO Yes, that's it. MR PRIOR I, I understand now, and I accept that, I don't pursue the matter. CHAIRPERSON It seems to me extremely improbable, but if it was another passenger in the bakkie who was hiking along and had escaped, that he didn't go to the Police and make a full report to them. MR PRIOR Yes, thank you Mr Chairman. I just need you to describe in a little more detail how you shot Mr Schroeder, and I think we must accept that it is Mr Schroeder that you shot in the back of the head. Could you maybe just describe to the Committee what, what happened there? MR DOLO As I was approaching him, I find him to be, he was lying there on the road and I think his head was in my direction and when I come to him and he was motionless, and I took the rifle with using my right hand side and I shoot him on the head. MR PRIOR You see, why I ask you that, Mr Dolo, is that at page 31, it's not a very clear copy, it's the post mortem report on Mr Schroeder, and in (v) the pathologist recorded that death had occurred, sorry, that the cause of death was, "where the wounds passing from the neck into brain", that looks like causing, MR LAX "Causing severe brain damage" MR PRIOR "Caused death." Understand what I'm putting to you? MR DOLO Yes, I understand. MR PRIOR So all the other injuries were there on the body, the shot wherever he, we know he was shot elsewhere, but it seems that the cause of death must have been your gunshot as you say, on the back of the neck here, in the head, which penetrated his brain. MR DOLO That may be so. MR PRIOR Do you accept that? MR DOLO I don't have any problem with that. MR PRIOR That, that it wasn't a question of him being dead already, or you not being sure. MR DOLO I just thought it that to finish ...(intervention) MR PRIOR Finish him off? MR DOLO Yes. MR LAX Sorry, Mr Prior, there are two wounds here that you can see. One goes straight through the neck, he's not sure, but he says, if you look at page 35, he says "wound through the neck" and he points to the one that goes through the neck. MR PRIOR Yes. MR LAX There's another one that passes through into the back and he points to this one that goes into the brain. You see that? MR PRIOR Yes, I see that. MR LAX Different injury. MR PRIOR Yes. MR LAX So there were probably a number of injuries. MR PRIOR Okay. Is there any reason why you did not go down to the vehicle that had left the road? MR DOLO I finded that there is no need. MR PRIOR But from you vantage point you said you could see that the driver was dead. That you say in your affidavit. MR DOLO I presume. MR PRIOR No, you said in paragraph 10 "when we arrived at the bridge, we found the driver of the taxi and a white woman dead". MR DOLO I'm not a doctor. I just presumed that they were dead. MR PRIOR But you were close enough to see the driver, who the driver was. MR DOLO Not so enough. MR PRIOR Did you see that he was a black person? MR DOLO Yes. MR PRIOR And? Was that also part of the plan? MR DOLO As I stated it that it was not part of the plan. MR PRIOR Was it just his bad luck that he was there on that day? MR DOLO It was his bad luck day. MR PRIOR And it would seem on your version and what we know that this gentleman Mr James Tsemane risked his life as he, well then, gave his life, to assist people who you were attacking? MR DOLO So what is your question? MR PRIOR Was that not the reason why you killed him, is because he was assisting your target? MR DOLO The time he was making the U-turn I was in the position not to notice that he was a black person or what. MR PRIOR You said it in your affidavit it was a taxi. How could you have made that mistake. MR DOLO I, a taxi in this case, I didn't mean to the kombi. MR PRIOR What did you mean? MR DOLO I mean a car, just a ordinary car. ADV SANDI Why do you call it a taxi then? MR PRIOR And not a bakkie? MR DOLO I take it maybe he was using it as a, as a taxi as he helped those people. ADV SANDI What was your attitude to him trying to help the people you had shot MR DOLO Which one? ADV SANDI The black man Mr Prior has referred to. MR DOLO The time of the shooting I was not in the position to see him. I was not in a position to see him, that I was shooting at one of the occupants was a black person. CHAIRPERSON I don't care whether you say him or not, what was your attitude towards the driver of this vehicle who was picking up the people you were attacking? MR DOLO After I saw that it was a African person, then I feel pity for him. ADV SANDI Did you, did you wish anyone to try and help these people you had shot? MR DOLO It was not in my mind at that stage. I was not think about that, that someone come and help them. I didn't have any thoughts about that, whether I wish or I don't wish. ADV SANDI Yes, but if one puts it to you that he was shot because he was assisting these people, would you dispute that? MR DOLO I would say I was shooting at the car to kill the white people who were inside the car. That there was also an African person that was come later to my knowledge. MR LAX So in essence you were making sure these people you attacked did not get away? MR DOLO Yes. MR LAX And if someone appears to be picking them up you were going to stop them no matter what? MR DOLO I was trying to kill the white occupants who was inside the car. MR LAX Yes, but whether it was a blue, black, brown or yellow person in that car would have made no difference to you? MR DOLO You mean the driver of the car? MR LAX Yes, would you have held your fire if you knew that was a black person? MR DOLO I think so. MR LAX And you would let the whites get away? MR DOLO I would have change, maybe we would try, as I was shooting at the car I concentrated on the tyres of the car. But it happened then that I, the driver of the car was get hurt. MR PRIOR Well you used a lethal weapon, a high powered rifle, a military rifle, an R4 that shoots a high explosive bullet at a vehicle that was very close to you? MR DOLO It was not very close. MR PRIOR Well estimate for us. When you were shooting at Mr Tsemane leaving, who had just picked up Mrs Brummer and they had done a U-turn. How far was that vehicle from you? MR DOLO MR PRIOR Isn't the truth of it, Mr Dolo, that you just didn't worry who you killed on that day? MR DOLO That is not the truth. MR PRIOR And you saw this white woman who was now getting away from you, and that was you actually shot at the vehicle to stop her getting away? MR DOLO I learn about that it was a white woman when I saw, I was passing her to the bridge that one of the occupants was a white woman. MR PRIOR And you were intent on killing her? MR DOLO Yes. MR PRIOR Because that was part of your instruction and your plan and your objective? MR DOLO Yes, that ...(intervention) MR PRIOR But now she was getting away, you hadn't injured her, she had run out of the vehicle, that had stopped, she got picked up by the second vehicle and now she was getting away? MR DOLO The time she was running out of his car to the coming car, out of her car to the approaching car, I didn't shoot. We tried to chase them. MR PRIOR Why not? MR DOLO We were chasing. We thought we would be able to reach them if they are out of the car. MR PRIOR So you weren't worried that she would escape at that stage? MR DOLO Then when they get inside the car then it was obvious that we not going to be able to reach them. MR PRIOR So in other words she was going to escape now? MR DOLO Yes. MR PRIOR And that's why you stopped, you stopped the vehicle from leaving? MR DOLO Yes. MR PRIOR And then to deal with, if they were living you would have killed them then? MR DOLO Yes. That was the aim. MR PRIOR So you knew she was white before you saw her from the bridge in the car? MR DOLO From the signal I get from my ...(intervention) MR PRIOR Yes. MR DOLO Trusted Comrade. MR PRIOR Don't tell us you only saw she was white when you looked down from the bridge. MR DOLO I, saw her on the bridge she, she was a female. When the car was passing us I was ...(intervention) MR PRIOR The question wasn't that she was a female, Mr Dolo. The question was that she was white. MR DOLO That, yes I knew ...(intervention) MR PRIOR And you said well I only saw whether she was white when I looked from the bridge. MR DOLO No, I didn't say so. MR PRIOR Yes, you did your will say that the transcript will show that, but anyway let's leave it and move on. I just need to ask you this question, sorry I'll pass on this one, it's more argument than anything, Mr Chairman. You seem to have simply whatever vehicle arrived on the scene, just given instructions to your Comrades or yourself simply to have opened fire, except on the schoolteachers? MR DOLO Because they were African people. MR PRIOR From that do I understand that it, it didn't even concern you whether people who were not African people, black people, whether they opposed the government or not, the apartheid government, it didn't make any difference to you? They would be killed simply because of the colour of their skin? MR DOLO Here in South Africa we have two kinds of people at that stage. We have the African people and the so- called Coloureds, the Indians and the blacks people, were all those people African people. Then the other group was the Settlers of which were the targets. MR PRIOR I'm just trying to understand the tragedy of, that you created on that day, because we don't know that Mrs Brummer we understand worked, had worked in Sterkspruit, which was predominantly a black area, is that right? She worked in a shop there? And that she would travel from Lady Grey to Sterkspruit virtually on a daily basis. Let me just find out, Sterkspruit is a black area? MR DOLO Yes. MR PRIOR And she, that was her work, she went to work in that area to serve that community? MR DOLO To enrich herself. MR PRIOR Well she worked there, we don't know how wealthy she got. CHAIRPERSON She worked in a shop selling things there, I don't think you can by analogy say that is to serve the community. MR PRIOR Well the shop was there for the benefit for the community. MR DOLO The shop there to enrich themself. MR PRIOR Well then with respect the people had to buy furniture or had to use furniture, I don't know. I leave that point, Mr Chairman. MR LAX Mr Prior, it's a matter for argument. At the end of the day all black, all white people were the enemy as far as he's concerned, that, that's the end of it. MR PRIOR Thank you. I don't have any further questions. I need to indicate to the Committee that the family wish to have an opportunity via the elder brother, or the eldest son of the deceased to put questions to the applicant. CHAIRPERSON Which family? MR PRIOR The victim's family. CHAIRPERSON Yes, well there was at least three victims. MR PRIOR Mr Tsemane's family. I said the eldest son of Mr Tsemane. Mr Chairman, I understand that Mr Daniel Tsemane has some questions and he also indicated that the last question, if that could be asked by one of the other sons. There's a particular sense to it, I don't know. CHAIRPERSON Very well, carry on. MR D TSEMANE Thank you Mr Chair. My name is Daniel Tsemane. I'm from Sterkspruit. I want to hear from the applicant where exactly in Jozanna's Hoek where they based. The family that host them in Jozanna. MR DOLO Who are you asking, me? Whom are you asking? MR PRIOR You, Mr Dolo. Who do you think he's asking questions to? MR DOLO I think it is mentioned in my affidavits where ...(intervention) MR D TSEMANE Well, answer him, he hasn't read you affidavit. Just answer him. You don't need to get aggro with him, just answer him. MR DOLO I stayed at Jozanna's Hoek. MR PRIOR Yes, he said with which family did you stay at Jozanna's Hoek? MR DOLO I forget the person who owned the house. I take it, my Comrade would be of help in this one. MR D TSEMANE I would be pleased to hear the exact family where you were, where you were staying with. Then the other question is, when you, when you arrived from your operation, how did that family who host you, feel or react when they hear, when they hear that Mr Tsemane was no more alive? MR DOLO The family you are talking about, we, was not informed of anything of what we are involved in it. After ...(indistinct) particular family, the house was our base. The people that were inside the house, it were us, APLA cadres, who occupied the house. MR D TSEMANE Mr Dolo, I think you are not the person who's staying in Jozanna. In Jozanna the house that you were staying in it, it was belonging to the other family whose in Jozanna. MR DOLO If there was such, or if there is such a person who owns the house he was not living with us at that stage. The house was under our own control. We used it as our house. MR D TSEMANE Thank you Mr Dolo, but as you said, your Comrade will assist you with the name of that family. I would be pleased to hear that, thank you, Mr Chairman. ADV SANDI Mr Dolo, are you saying you were the only people who occupied this house at that time? MR DOLO The house was under our control. CHAIRPERSON Will you answer the question. Were you the only people who occupied the house at that time? MR DOLO There was one Comrade, whom I believed later that he was once the owner of the house, or, after we left he was the owner of the house. ADV SANDI Would I be correct to say that, from this answer you have just given me, you mean to say that there was no other person there who was not part of your group. MR DOLO Except the person I have mentioned, the owner of the house. ADV SANDI The house was used specifically for housing APLA members? MR DOLO At that stage it was specifically for, it was our base. ADV SANDI Thank you. MR DOLO At that stage it was specifically for, it was our base. MR TSEMANE Thank you. CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR D TSEMANE Through you, Mr Chairperson, through you, Mr Chairperson, Mr Dolo ...(intervention) MR PRIOR Please be quiet. MR D TSEMANE Mr Dolo, I don't understand you properly. You say the house was under control, except for the person who thereafter appeared to be the owner. Was that person staying with you at the time you were staying in that house? MR DOLO He was not sleeping at that house. MR D TSEMANE Where was he sleeping? MR DOLO I don't know where he was sleeping. MR D TSEMANE Did he frequently come to the house? MR DOLO At some other times he'll come. MR D TSEMANE Thank you. MR L TSEMANE Thank you, Mr Chairman. I am Leshonolo from the Tsemane family. I just want to know from the applicant who exactly was the owner of that house, because he claims that that owner frequently came to see him, and definitely you cannot stay with someone who doesn't, who you do not know. MR DOLO To be of help to you, I take it you understand, you know where Jozanna is. Do you? MR L TSEMANE Yes I do. MR DOLO Do you know the school there at Jozanna? MR L TSEMANE Yes. MR DOLO The High School which is there at Jozanna? MR L TSEMANE Yes. MR DOLO The house I am talking about, it's next to the, to the school, it occupies the corner. MR L TSEMANE Do you mind disclosing the name please, of the owner. MR DOLO I don't know the name of the person, the owner of the house. MR L TSEMANE I suppose you were taken there by some people. Possibly people who are based in Sterkspruit. Can you tell us who they were, or who they are? MR DOLO Repeat the question. MR L TSEMANE I am sure, like you said, you only came to the Sterkspruit at around July 1992. That means, well then it means that you did not know the area. So definitely someone must have taken you up to Jozanna. MR DOLO Yes. MR L TSEMANE To the area as it were, the area in question. Do you mind telling us who actually showed you to the place? MR DOLO Yes, it was Phila. MR L TSEMANE Is, okay, is Phila, where does he stay? Is he from around? MR DOLO You mean now? MR L TSEMANE Is he a person from Sterkspruit, that's my question? MR DOLO He was also an APLA Cadre. MR L TSEMANE And you say, you said initially, you do not know his real name. MR DOLO The other name I gave the house, was of Pawa. MR L TSEMANE Pawa, okay. And you are saying you were sent by Sebelo Palma and Mphahlele. I'm sure they do not know the place, I mean they don't know Sterkspruit. Some people might have identified places for you. People who took you around to show these are target places and things like those. Can't, won't it be fair for you to please tell us who those people were? MR DOLO I, in my affidavits, I mentioned that I was the Commander in charge of the operations and the intelligence work in charge in collecting information about the targets that have to be attacked, and the people who were involved in that were those who were my subordinates. MR L TSEMANE Who are understandably also not from Sterkspruit. You mean, I mean the people you were together with are not from the area, from Sterkspruit as it were. MR DOLO Some I find them there, some knew the area more that I. MR L TSEMANE Thank you. My second last question, how do you feel, what do you say after having, after having killed my father, to be exact? MR DOLO It worried me a lot. I ...(intervention) MR L TSEMANE I'm asking this question because you are some kind, you displayed some kind of pride in all you were doing, you didn't look like a person who was exactly coming to ask for amnesty. Instead you were proud here, not feeling sorry for all the filthy things, deeds or acts you did. Thank you. MR DOLO I cam here to talk about what happened and to give the house what happened. The truth about it. MR L TSEMANE Thanks, Mr Chairman. ADV SANDI Mr Dolo, did you say a moment ago, the owner of this house was not aware of what you gentlemen ...(intervention) MR DOLO I was not reporting, I was not reporting to him. MR PRIOR Well, because you were not reporting to him doesn't mean he wasn't aware of what you were doing. That's a very big, there's a huge difference in meaning, if you hear me? MR DOLO He was aware that we are APLA cadres. CHAIRPERSON Re-examination? MR MBANDAZAYO None, Mr Chairman. ADV SANDI Thank you, Mr Chairperson. Mr Dolo, you said you were under the impression that the, the vehicle picking up the people, was a taxi. Did you make that impression at that time as that the vehicle was picking up the people? The vehicle which has stopped to pick up the lady there? MR DOLO I'm not sure. Maybe at that stage or after that. I'm not sure. ADV SANDI Right. I, may I ask you, may I put it to you that normally taxi's are owned by black people. MR DOLO It was not a taxi as normally known as a taxi. ADV SANDI Yes. MR DOLO As it was a small car. ADV SANDI But I understood you saying the fact that it was picking up those people, you were under the impression that it was a taxi. Then, my question is normally taxi's are driven by black people. Would you agree with me? MR DOLO I will agree with you. ADV SANDI Therefore you would be, you would know that the person driving that, the vehicle was a black person, an African, to use your word. What do you say about that? MR DOLO At that stage I was not aware that it was an African, but normally taxi's are driven by African people. The big ones, the Kombi, taxi's. ADV SANDI No further questions, Mr Chairperson. MR PRIOR Thank you Chairperson. CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR PRIOR These, these ladies that you stopped in this vehicle, that you then "borrowed" as you put it, did you not tell them that you were part of APLA, and that you were borrowing their vehicle as part of your operation? MR DOLO I don't recall what I said in relation to that that I was an APLA cadre. MR PRIOR You see, we've from countless other people who are members of APLA, who all say that when they took things from African people, they tried to make them understand what they were doing and why they needed the vehicle. They said it was common practice to tell those people that "don't worry, we're part of APLA, we're not going to destroy your vehicle. You will get it back". They would even try and get phone numbers and arrange to leave it with them, and tell them where they would leave it. MR DOLO I might have said so, because I promised her that they would find their car. MR PRIOR Where did you tell them they would find their car? MR DOLO Where, you mean where they would find their car? MR PRIOR Yes, at what place would they have found their car? MR DOLO At Sterkspruit. I didn't specify where specifically. MR PRIOR Well, it's quite a big area. Where, surely you ...(intervention) MR DOLO It's not so big, Sterkspruit. It's a small town, Sterkspruit. MR PRIOR Oh, in the town. MR DOLO No, I don't specifically mean the town. I mean the whole area of Sterkspruit, it's not so big. MR PRIOR MR DOLO That is not a big thing, 40. MR PRIOR How would someone know where to find their vehicle in that area if you left it in a forest or you left it somewhere else? How would she know where to find it? MR DOLO It's a take them, those people to be very concerned about their neighbours and they will report whatever happened in their neighbours. So, if I left the car maybe next to any house, they found that there are not occupants inside the house. Then the authorities next to them would be notified about that, and in that way they will receive their car. MR PRIOR Now, you never actually got to Sterkspruit, you ...(intervention) MR DOLO The car was ...(intervention) MR PRIOR The car ran, the car ran out of petrol along the way. MR DOLO We never reached the town of Sterkspruit. MR PRIOR Yes. So what effort did you make to get hold of those people and tell them, "listen, your car is somewhere here or there, or anywhere"? MR DOLO Where we left it we take it they will reach it or some way of help will reach it. MR PRIOR The fact is you made no effort to really do that, did you? MR DOLO I never made any effort. ADV SANDI Why did you not make any effort to do that, Mr Dolo? MR DOLO We have to travel those few kilometres to reach our base and we have to keep on hiding, as generally the house was known to be an APLA house, and we expected that maybe if we travel around and we where known around in our area, so it will attracted the Police that and that would lead to our arrest. ADV SANDI You were running away from being apprehended from the Police? MR DOLO You may say so. MR PRIOR That's it, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Now, you've told us about the first car that came and the signal you were given and that it sped past you. Do you remember telling us that? MR DOLO Yes. CHAIRPERSON And you then opened fire. The car came to a stop, and the people got out and another car came. MR DOLO Yes. CHAIRPERSON And you then traced the people. MR DOLO Yes. CHAIRPERSON Did you examine this car? MR DOLO Which one? CHAIRPERSON The first car. MR DOLO Myself, I never examined it. CHAIRPERSON Why not? There was a car abandoned near you. Why didn't you examine it? MR DOLO What for? CHAIRPERSON To use to get away. MR DOLO We were still chasing people. CHAIRPERSON Yes, but after that you decided rather than examine this car, to steal somebody else's car. MR DOLO After we shot the second time we were far away from the first car, so there was no need to go back and take the second car. CHAIRPERSON You weren't that far away. You may have been a hundred yards away. MR DOLO Whether it was a hundred yards away, to us it was, it was not our destiny. We were going forward to Herschel. CHAIRPERSON But the car was there. Empty, available. You didn't have to steal from others and cause more people ...(intervention) MR DOLO It never comes to our mind that we have to go and take the car. CHAIRPERSON Why not? MR DOLO It never came to our mind. We were chasing those other people. CHAIRPERSON The people who owned that car where all dead. MR DOLO And we were far away from it at that stage. CHAIRPERSON You were a hundred paces away. MR DOLO It take it to be more than hundred. CHAIRPERSON And you never went to look at it? You never went to drive it away. You rather steal from four women? MR DOLO What I say? CHAIRPERSON You would rather steal another car from four women that walk these few yards. Have you forgotten you told us how you liked the exercise, how you marched 13 kilometres, or 16 kilometres there and 16 kilometres back? MR DOLO The whole exercise ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON And now you say you couldn't be bothered to go and look at this car. Are you telling me the truth, Mr Dolo? MR DOLO I think you have to give me an allowance to answer you. CHAIRPERSON Well do. Why did you not go and examine the car that was sitting there? MR DOLO It was not part of our plan to go and take that car. ADV SANDI Mr Dolo, just look at paragraph 6 of your affidavit. The first sentence, are you there? Can you see it, Mr Dolo, paragraph 6. MR DOLO Must I read it? ADV SANDI Where it says, I will read it to you: "The target was identified by myself" Then you go on to tell how you went about organising weapons etceteras, etceteras. As I understand your evidence, you were implementing a policy of doing these things which you told us about. Am I correct? MR DOLO Yes, you are correct. ADV SANDI And the targets you identified where so identified in line with that policy or a mission of APLA to attack whites, am I correct understand this? MR DOLO Yes, you are correct. ADV SANDI Where you in any way part of the decision that whites in general should be attacked? MR DOLO That lie to the hands of the High Command to take such decisions. ADV SANDI All you had to do in that context was simply to implement or execute those orders as you understood them? MR DOLO Yes, that's correct. ADV SANDI Thank you, Mr Dolo. CHAIRPERSON It is now 16h52. I do not think it would be practical to start a new witness at this stage. We will not take the adjournment till 09h00 tomorrow morning, and I ask all interested parties please to try to be here and ready to start at 09h00. HEARING ADJOURNS