amntrans 46 MR MOIKABI, AMNESTY HEARINGS 1997-03-27 BLOEMFONTEIN 1 M J MOIKABI https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=54592&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/bloem/bloem1_bloem03.htm MR MPSHE Mr Chairman the next applicant is Mr Moikabi. Mr Chairman and members of the Committee before I request that the applicant takes an oath, I want to inform the Committee as follows pertaining to this applicant. That the applicant was enroled last year in the Kroonstad hearings whereat he formally appeared and he was represented by Mr Oupa Matsepe, together with the other applicants. And at that hearing his application, I don't know which word to use, either was removed from the roll or withdrawn, but it did happen in Kroonstad. Mr Chairman as I went through the application, the application form itself, and the statement made by the applicant, the applicant is denying involvement in this whole thing. But with that background I did canvass this point with him and the fact that it was withdrawn first in Kroonstad and in this application again it is a denial. I've made him aware of the provisions of the enabling Act in the presence of Mr Matsepe who is present here today, and I have asked him to remain in attendance to confirm that this is what transpired between me and the applicant, and if he confirms or if the Committee doesn't deem it necessary for him to confirm I would like to leave this in the hands of the Committee because I tried to explain to the applicant the implications hereof. Thank you. JUDGE WILSON The application before us is one that cannot BLOEMFONTEIN HEARING AMNESTY/FREE STATE MR MPSHE 47 ADDRESS be granted, you agree Mr Mpshe? MR MPSHE I agree Mr Chairman, very fully, and I told him again because of the application as is, he does not even have a leg - he cannot even be heard by this Committee. This I did convey to him. JUDGE WILSON And there's no application, he doesn't want to lodge a new application or change it, is that what I understand from you? This is his attitude? MR MPSHE Mr Chairman I must admit during lunchtime he would, he was going to say that he was present, but I made him aware that we have got to be honest with the Committee, Mr Matsepe can confirm that. JUDGE WILSON Mr Moikabi is there anything which you wish to say in relation to your application? MR MOIKABI Could you repeat the question please. JUDGE WILSON Is there anything you wish to say in relation to your application? MR MOIKABI Yes there is. JUDGE WILSON Well say it. MR MOIKABI In regard to my application we have come before the Truth and Reconciliation Commission to explain about the truth which I know and how I am affected by this murder and what has put me in prison. JUDGE WILSON In your application you have repeatedly said you were not guilty, you didn't know anything about the attacks. MR MOIKABI That's true Sir. JUDGE WILSON You confirm you were not guilty in this, you had nothing to do with these attacks? MR MOIKABI That's true Sir, that is my evidence which I confirm, that I had nothing to do with this matter, but I am BLOEMFONTEIN HEARING AMNESTY/FREE STATE JUDGE WILSON 48 MR MOIKABI a fully-fledged comrade, I am a member of the ANC. JUDGE WILSON Mr Mpshe is there anything further you wish to say, he appears to have confirmed the correctness of what is set out in his application? MR MPSHE Mr Chairman I have nothing further to say, I leave it in the hands of the Committee. JUDGE MGOEPE Mr Moikabi in terms of the Act we only hear applications for amnesty by people who, even on their own version, did in fact commit the offence in which they seek amnesty, you understand? MR MOIKABI Yes I understand. JUDGE MGOEPE We are not here sitting as some kind of a court of appeal trying and overturn what you may consider to have been a wrong judgement against you, do you understand that? MR MOIKABI Yes I understand that. JUDGE MGOEPE So at the position, as the Act tells us we cannot therefore consider your application, in other words it falls outside our area of function and indeed jurisdiction. MR MOIKABI I understand but I wanted to show something under my personal circumstances, and before the Truth and Reconciliation, that very shortly, that you should know me what kind of a person I am. JUDGE MGOEPE Well you have told us that you are a comrade and a member of the ANC, is there anything more that you want to tell us about? ....(tape ends) MR MOIKABI .... leader who was Veks Mayekiso. In that meeting we were supposed to talk about the civic issues. Comrade Mayekiso informed us about the killing of White people where he said the organisation is not responsible and BLOEMFONTEIN HEARING AMNESTY/FREE STATE JUDGE MGOEPE 49 MR MOIKABI it's distancing itself from this, that act. We as the residents we were surprised by this incident, as White people were seen as people who were coming closer to the Black people. On that day it was heard on the radio that two people were arrested and investigations are still going on. In regard to my arrest ...(intervention) JUDGE MGOEPE Just a minute, just a minute, just stop a little bit. JUDGE WILSON We have heard what you say the residents felt after the killing, that is not relevant towards the application for amnesty. We are sitting here as a Committee to decide applications for amnesty and I do not think it is in any way relevant to our function to continue to hear what you have to say about your feelings after the killings became known. We appreciate that you people found it unpleasant. I think that is sufficient. Is there anything of any importance you have to say? MR MOIKABI Yes I have which I want to explain. JUDGE WILSON Carry on. MR MOIKABI I was a comrade for a long time in Kothlanong township. It is true that rumours was heard that Inkatha and the Russian gang were coming to attack the comrades. JUDGE MGOEPE Just - sorry let me interrupt you, you see you, precisely because you were not, strictly speaking you are not an applicant before us, you did not take an oath, you remember that, you didn't take an oath. And if you are going to go on and say things which may possibly prejudice other applicants you must decide whether you want to be a witness in this case, take an oath and be cross-examined because you can't just go on saying things which possibly may prejudice other applicants when in fact you are not an BLOEMFONTEIN HEARING AMNESTY/FREE STATE JUDGE MGOEPE 50 MR MOIKABI applicant before us. You can't just say things for the sake of saying things, do you understand that? We have people who have applied here for amnesty and if you want to get into - you must decide whether you want to be a witness, then take an oath and then those other people must come and cross-examine you where they do not agree with you, because you are not an applicant strictly speaking. We thought we were going to give you the opportunity to say a few things and summarise yourself, but you seem to be going into the details of the incident. Now you must decide whether you just want to summarise the point that you want to make or you are going to be a witness and then we must make you take an oath so that the other applicants can cross-examine you, because some of the things which you said may possibly prejudice the applicants before us. MR MOIKABI I ask to take an oath so as I will be able to testify other applicants. JUDGE MGOEPE Well that being the case this Committee will decide whether they want you to come and testify as a witness or not and then we will treat you on that basis. ADV DE JAGER Mr Moikabi could I try to explain to you. The Act says if you've committed an offence or - and that offence was committed with a political motive, then you could ask for amnesty. But if you've done nothing then you couldn't have done it with a political motive where a murder is concerned. Now if you could tell us by doing nothing, what did you want to achieve politically? MR MOIKABI It is true, I understand what you are trying to explain. JUDGE WILSON Well you have told us you were not there at all on the Saturday, you were at home, so you cannot tell us BLOEMFONTEIN HEARING AMNESTY/FREE STATE JUDGE WILSON 51 MR MOIKABI anything about what happened on the Saturday, what is it you now wish to give evidence about? Don't tell me the whole thing, summarise briefly what it is you wish to give evidence about and why you think it important we should hear it. MR MOIKABI Just explain a little bit the last part of your sentence. JUDGE WILSON What do you want to give evidence about and why do you think it's important that we should hear your evidence, what is the relevance of it? MR MOIKABI I agreed to testify. JUDGE MGOEPE But what are you going to tell us because you say you were not there at all at the scene, you say you were not there at all when this thing happened? MR MOIKABI That's true, I was not there I was not present ...(intervention) JUDGE MGOEPE Well then ...(intervention) MR MOIKABI But in terms of the situations I know ...(intervention) JUDGE MGOEPE ...is that document, that document which you have in front of you is it important? MR MOIKABI It is important Sir. JUDGE MGOEPE Well will that be of comfort to you if you we ask you to give it to us then and - or make copies and give those copies to us? Because we, there are people who are waiting to have their applications heard, and who admit that they committed these offences, who are within ambit of this Act and they are anxiously waiting on us to call on them to come and testify, people who were there when these things happened. There isn't such a great need for us to listen to somebody who wants to tell us about something BLOEMFONTEIN HEARING AMNESTY/FREE STATE JUDGE MGOEPE 52 MR MOIKABI which happened when he was not there. MR MOIKABI What I wanted to explain to testify about was, it is true that I was not present, but the situation surrounding this killing I know, truly but I don't know about the killing, I know about the situations leading towards the killing, I know the situation of where I am staying. JUDGE MGOEPE Alright, the applicants have told us about that. MR MOIKABI If that is the case I have no words Sir, thank you. JUDGE WILSON Anything you wish to say Mr Mpshe? MR MPSHE Mr Chairman may Mr Matsepe be allowed to place himself on record and to confirm what I have just conveyed to the Committee, that is all he has to do. JUDGE WILSON Place himself on record as what? MR MATSEPE Mr Chairman if I could explain, I was telephonically instructed by the Legal Aid Board to appear on behalf of Moikabi today and indeed after consultations I realised that I am in this predicament, I can't go on with this application, I advised him as such and I confirm what Advocate Mpshe has indicated to the Committee and I just wanted to be excused. JUDGE WILSON Well he has confirmed it himself, Moikabi has. Thank you for having taken the trouble to tell us that though. MR MATSEPE Thank you Sir. JUDGE WILSON Anything else you wish to say? Very well you may go. WITNESS EXCUSED MR MPSHE Mr Chairman then that rounds up the application BLOEMFONTEIN HEARING AMNESTY/FREE STATE MR MPSHE 53 ADDRESS of the two applicants. As I have indicated right in the beginning there are no next of kin to the victims. That is the end of the matter. JUDGE WILSON Do you wish to say anything in support of the applications? MR MPSHE Mr Chairman may I make a request that I be given an opportunity to address the Committee on this whole application later? JUDGE WILSON Alright. Carry on with the next matter. BLOEMFONTEIN HEARING AMNESTY/FREE STATE