amntrans AMNESTY HEARINGS 1997-03-25 BLOEMFONTEIN 2 OUPA KHOTLE https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=54596&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/bloem/bloem1_bloem08.htm MR MTHEMBU Mr Chairman I will call Mr Oupa Khotle. JUDGE WILSON How long will you be, it's now five to one? MR MTHEMBU Not long, but certainly not shorter than five minutes Mr Chair. JUDGE WILSON Right, we'll carry on for a bit. MR MTHEMBU Thank you Mr Chair. OUPA KHOTLE (sworn states) EXAMINATION BY MR MTHEMBU Mr Khotle is it correct that you are a member of the PAC as well as its military wing, APLA? MR KHOTLE Yes it is so Sir. MR MTHEMBU Is it further correct that during or about 1992 you were the high ...(intervention) JUDGE WILSON Before you go on can I clarify something. I understand you have made an application for amnesty. MR KHOTLE Yes that is so. JUDGE WILSON I have not had an opportunity of seeing your application but I have been told that you have not made application in respect of the incidents giving rise to the killing of Mr Fourie in February 1992, is that correct? MR KHOTLE Yes it is so. JUDGE WILSON Have you any objection to giving evidence in connection with that incident and the matters surrounding it? MR KHOTLE I don't have a problem. JUDGE WILSON Thank you. Carry on. BLOEMFONTEIN HEARING AMNESTY/FREE STATE MR MTHEMBU 143 O KHOTLE MR MTHEMBU Thank you Mr Chair. Mr Khotle it's further correct that during or about 1992 you were the commander responsible for the Botshabelo area within the realms of APLA and the PAC? MR KHOTLE It is so. MR MTHEMBU Now do you know the four applicants before this Committee, that is Mr Leeuw, Magoda, Nkwegdi and May? MR KHOTLE I know all of them very well. MR MTHEMBU Were they members of the organisation, is that how you know them? MR KHOTLE They were members of the PAC until they were transferred to the task force. It was one of the units that advocated the struggle of the Africans against oppression that we lived under from these people that are referred to as Whites. In that way being members of the PAC also being a person responsible and I identify people who were to advocate the armed struggle then I picked them out as important people these honourable men and Africans who came here for amnesty. They did undergo a crash course. The important thing here is that APLA as any other organisation has got a chain of commands and task force was a unit outside APLA. However, it was part of PAC to advocate the armed struggle. I can explain this manner about the task force. It had specific duties to carry out, however, the commander of this force has the authority to designate duties for them to carry out which were in the name of the organisation itself. The duties of task force was to defend and/or protect the organisation against I can say infiltration or attacks from other organisations or vigilantes who were against the organisation. As I have said its commander has got the BLOEMFONTEIN HEARING AMNESTY/FREE STATE MR MTHEMBU 144 O KHOTLE authority to designate duties except these that I have just explained. For example duties to go and attack or offensive tasks to carry out. The commander has got such authority and as we have observed as from the eighties the year was referred to as the year of intensification or revolution, the time of Uncle Zefanye Matupeng. In 1990 this year was referred to as the year People's Offensive. We established this that we refer to as the Great Storm. Great Storm was established because of the people's offensive against oppression, exploitation and social depression. That's what happened, it's a fact. The late comrade John Showa, who was one of the seniors in APLA and who was responsible for the task force operations being a person that I am well known to because I was a member of APLA. He requested me to identify people who can be important to take our struggle forward. Our armed struggle forward. I did that job. I can tell this Commission that these Africans who are here explaining their deeds are not the only ones that I have identified and let them meet seniors within APLA to come and undergo this crash course so that we take our struggle forward. There are some of them who might appear before you. Our struggle was not dependent on colour, it was a struggle against the oppressors, against the attackers of Africans, briefly I could refer to them as Whites, they were part of this operation. When the Africans received this crash course I was present even though I was not charged with the duties of the task force I was charged with the duties of APLA. However it was my duty because APLA was not what I could refer to as an organ that can take the struggle forward alone. The task force and the community was part of the struggle and we observed that they are what BLOEMFONTEIN HEARING AMNESTY/FREE STATE MR MTHEMBU 145 O KHOTLE we refer to as mass protest and demonstrations. There are political actions that can be taken up by the community. On the other hand APLA involved arms struggle which we can refer to as military operation. Task force, even though it didn't have the training that APLA members received did have this privilege of taking forward the struggle because it's history and no one would say it doesn't know that Africans were oppressed at that time. So these Africans were trained because every member of the crash course who would be recruited will be asked questions and we would want to see whether this African does he have understanding of the country's political situation. If we are satisfied that they do have the understanding, great understanding of politics within the country it is only then that we can treat them as fit and proper people to take participation in the task force and undergo a crash course. It has two parts, ideological and political, then follows the military part of it, weapon handling, battle formations and such other things. Due to the limited time and place where at that time we were not able to render, especially at the locations, proper training to these members because the enemy was all over looking for us. They were given important facts, those that were necessary to take the struggle forward. ADV DE JAGER As far as this present case is concerned did you give any orders to the four applicants? MR KHOTLE As I've explained the one who was responsible for the task force was the late comrade Showa. He is the one who gave out the order that the farmers be attacked. Let me explain briefly around that point. The farmers, we must understand they are part or they form part or they were BLOEMFONTEIN HEARING AMNESTY/FREE STATE MR MTHEMBU 146 O KHOTLE part of the oppressors at that time because the farmers you could actually define them they are twofold. They can be police reservists or army reservists. They are the people who were always ready for call-ups either in the army or in the police force, they were always alert to come and do national service. That is a known fact, it's not a secret. And Mr Fourie who was murdered or rather attacked, I don't think he was attacked because he was Mr Fourie or he did something to somebody, he was attacked because he formed part of oppression towards the Africans. To testify on this I want to bring to the attention of the Commission that in most cases you will find that the farmers have a lot of artilleries or firearms and you would ask yourselves if they are referred to as soft targets or civilians, what about these firearms that you find in their houses, because you cannot have firearms that you cannot use in your house. So I want to explain that Mr Fourie was attacked as he formed part of the oppression. He could be an army reservist or police reservist. You must also recall that in what ever country where there is a political struggle the one who is in power if the country's economy is not stable would not be able to govern for a long time. So the farmers by forming agricultural production did a lot of participation to support the government of oppression with everything they can so that it goes forward and oppresses the Africans because they have been oppressed for more than 300 years and the National Party you would observe that from 1948 up till now it is because of their agricultural unions that supported it and some of them which are foreign to this country. MR MTHEMBU But Sir you do not know if Mr Showa gave an BLOEMFONTEIN HEARING AMNESTY/FREE STATE MR MTHEMBU 147 O KHOTLE order to these four comrades they attack Mr Fourie's farm? MR KHOTLE It is - what I can say is that it is true that he was responsible for the task force. I was responsible for APLA. However, I was a link to can recruit which was not an offence because we were engaged in a liberation struggle. If when Africans have been identified it is then that I can assist where he will request me. If he asks me to be part of giving the political situation in our country to can identify the Africans who will be proper for this task force unit, we must remember that he was also a representative of task force. He was my senior. He was amongst the seniors within the high command. If he requested me to offer a certain assistance on weapon handling or give firearms I would not refuse, I would just comply. However, I would not interfere with the duties of that unit that was under his command. So I would like to say the order was given out by Mr Showa because he was responsible for these task force operations. JUDGE WILSON But you don't know, you assume that from what I have just heard you saying? You assume that the order was given by Showa, do you personally know that he did so? MR KHOTLE I personally know he issued the order. JUDGE WILSON Were you there? MR KHOTLE I was present when he issued the order. JUDGE WILSON You were present when this order ...(intervention) MR KHOTLE Exactly. JUDGE WILSON .... to kill White farmers was given. MR KHOTLE To kill the oppressors. JUDGE WILSON And you were there supporting him? BLOEMFONTEIN HEARING AMNESTY/FREE STATE MR MTHEMBU 148 O KHOTLE MR KHOTLE I was part of the struggle. MR MTHEMBU Mr Khotle what Mr Chair is asking you is if you were present when an order to attack the farm of Mr Fourie was given, or you are merely assuming that the order would have been given by Showa because he was in charge of the task force operations ...(intervention) JUDGE MGOEPE He says that he was there, he was present, he says he was there he was present when the order was given, isn't that what he said to a question by Judge Wilson? MR MTHEMBU With due respect Sir, (...indistinct) impression as far as Judge Wilson is - the Chairperson has pursued it further, with due respect. JUDGE MGOEPE The question was - if you want to clarify it frame it in such a way that it is able to clarify. There is no point in repeating exactly the same question which Judge Wilson asked and to which we have got an answer. MR KHOTLE May I be given the opportunity to briefly explain. The important thing here is that I was present when Comrade Showa gave out the order that the farmers be attacked. Whether he gave out the order that Mr Fourie be attacked, I don't know about that. But what I do know is that as there is this unit and unit has got a commander it is clear that the authority to single out a target are in the unit commanders hands who controls this unit at that time and at that place. What I want to say in brief, it is not a secret that I was present when he gave out this order because I already knew that we were engaged in a struggle against oppression. We are in a struggle for liberation. We are in a struggle which is not based on colour because we didn't define it by means of Blacks or Whites. However, some BLOEMFONTEIN HEARING AMNESTY/FREE STATE MR MTHEMBU 149 O KHOTLE of them were enemies against the PAC liberation struggle. ADV DE JAGER Could you then explain please to me why was the motto "Kill a farmer, Kill a Boer, Kill a Settler", "One Settler, One Bullet" if it wasn't directed against Whites? Weren't the Whites the settlers? MR KHOTLE The first point is that one settler slogan has never been a principal a policy of PAC, however, one settler one bullet slogan we can refer it to as a soccer player in the field. When he grabs the ball being known that he is the person who can do tricks with the ball maybe he can refer to as Disco, which can be related to the manner in which he plays soccer. Here we are referring to one settler one bullet slogan because originally as we look back as the President, as the former President Comrade Clarence Makwetu explained that the source, the main cause of this struggle is that when you are engaged in a fight there is no way you can say you feel sympathy for this enemy. One settler one bullet slogan, it is a slogan and a slogan goes along with time, you must understand that. It is not a policy or a principle of PAC. It was a slogan because the Africans were engaged in an armed struggle and we must recall that it is not the Africans who decided to engage in an armed struggle, it was the government of the oppressors who forced the Africans to engage in an armed struggle. This is what happened on the 21 March 1960 where the Boers government banned our organisations, ANC and PAC and then the organisations were forced into exile. This is where our organisations asked themselves if now we are to fight for our freedom in peace or - then these Boers shoot us, shoot at us then we must retaliate in the same manner. It is not for us to be blamed that there was MK or APLA or an armed BLOEMFONTEIN HEARING AMNESTY/FREE STATE MR MTHEMBU 150 O KHOTLE struggle. It is their problem. They are to blame that there was such a thing. We can remember in 1950's there were strikes, those were peaceful way so fighting. MR MTHEMBU Mr Khotle is there anything further that you wish to add? MR KHOTLE What I can say is this. These Africans who came before the Committee they were liberation fighters, fighting for the Africans. Their fight was not of PAC or Nkgwedi or May or ANC, however this was the African's call under oppression. As I have been asked I am just here to testify on that. MR MTHEMBU Thank you Sir, and is that your testimony? Thank you Mr Chairman. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MTHEMBU JUDGE WILSON Do you wish to ask any questions now or do you think we should take the adjournment? MISS THABETHE Can I ask them now so that we finish the matter. Just two questions. I want to know from you, are you saying you regarded all farmers as part of the oppressors, all of them? MR KHOTLE I would like to repeat and say, the farmers, because I cannot recall that there were Africans who were oppressed who owned farms, they formed part of the oppression. MISS THABETHE So you didn't use any criterion in choosing which farmers to attack, there was no criterion? As long as you were a farmer you were being attacked, is that what you are saying? MR KHOTLE If you were a farmer and you formed part of the oppressive regime you were identified as a target with the BLOEMFONTEIN HEARING AMNESTY/FREE STATE MISS THABETHE 151 O KHOTLE understanding that the White community, I would refer to it as a para-military community where a school child, it is a fact, this is not what I say out of my mind, a school child is orientated by military fatigue at school they are taught all these army things. This is not a new thing that I bring up here. This did happen. That is why I say they qualified to form part of the targets that we were aiming at. MISS THABETHE Are you aware though that there were farmers who were not oppressors, I mean was your organisation aware of that fact? MR KHOTLE That? MISS THABETHE That it's not all farmers who were oppressors, was your organisation aware of that fact? JUDGE MGOEPE Who were they Mrs Thabethe? You must be careful with that question. You say to the witness are you aware that there were farmers who were not oppressors, are you aware of them, of the farmers who were oppressors and those who were not oppressors? MISS THABETHE Maybe I am not phrasing the question correctly, what I am trying to say is that ...(intervention) JUDGE MGOEPE No I think re-phrase that question because you entangle yourself into a debate which we don't want to go into. MISS THABETHE Okay I withdraw the question. JUDGE WILSON Is that all? MISS THABETHE That's all. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS MR MTHEMBU No further evidence Mr Chair. WITNESS EXCUSED JUDGE WILSON At this stage as a result of the enquiries which I requested be made this morning, we have been handed BLOEMFONTEIN HEARING AMNESTY/FREE STATE 152 a copy of two affidavits which were obviously prepared for the purpose of the trial, have you seen those affidavits? MR MTHEMBU I have not Mr Chair, I have not seen them. JUDGE WILSON One is by a police officer who gives evidence about where he found a great many items, such as a brown wallet containing quite a lot of money, a card belonging to the deceased which was found in the possession of Mishek May. A gold wrist watch with the deceased's name engraved on the back of it and similar articles. They were found all over the place, in the possession of a number of people. They have all been identified by Mrs May as belonging to herself or the deceased. In these circumstances it seems to me we should firstly make the documents available to you so you can read them, if necessary take instructions and furthermore it would perhaps be desirable to obtain a copy of the judgment at the trial which may deal with all these points. If not we should call these two people. In any event I feel Mrs May should be informed that this application is proceeding. At the time that she made this affidavit she gave an address there. Those people may well be able to find her, and it seems to me we should let the matter stand down for the moment, but it certainly will not be concluded today, depending on the attitude adopted by your clients. They have now committed themselves to one version. It also appears, I may be have misread the affidavit that some of the coins were sold and a cheque for R1 200 was found in the possession of, I think, Mr Leeuw. So perhaps you would like to read them. MR MTHEMBU Thank you for the indulgence Mr Chair, and for BLOEMFONTEIN HEARING AMNESTY/FREE STATE 153 standing down the matter for a short while to take instructions. I am indebted to you and the Committee. JUDGE WILSON You could (...indistinct) to let the matter proceed on that basis, or do you wish to lead evidence at this stage? MISS THABETHE I propose that the next matter be heard. JUDGE WILSON The next matter, yes. Very well. This matter will stand down. When it is convenient to you could you mention it later during the course of the afternoon as to what exactly has happened. MR MTHEMBU I will do that Mr Chair, thank you. JUDGE WILSON Thank you. MISS THABETHE Mr Chair can I say something before you close the matter. I have got reports from the Investigative Unit here and what I heard is that the Investigative Unit tried to get of a putative wife of the victim and they were told that she moved to England. But unfortunately they didn't mention who the putative wife was. I will find that out and come back to you, but I have got a feeling it is Mrs May. JUDGE WILSON I imagine it was and you can see she, one of her possessions that was stolen was a silver watch presented to her late - I presume it was her late husband celebrating 25 years service on one of the mines. It appears that she is undoubtedly connected to the mines, one of the mining companies here who I have no doubt are paying her a pension and will have her address. And when she made that affidavit she was staying at the mine manager's house and I think it was the President Steyn mine but you can look at the affidavit and see to find out what company it is and to find out from them where she is. I have no doubt they will know. BLOEMFONTEIN HEARING AMNESTY/FREE STATE 154 MISS THABETHE May I be excused. I am handing over to.... MISS THABETHE EXCUSED BLOEMFONTEIN HEARING AMNESTY/FREE STATE