amntrans AMNESTY HEARINGS 1997-05-12 BLOEMFONTEIN J.J. DE RU https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=54601&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/bloem/bloem2_deru.htm TRUTH AND RECONCILIATION COMMISSION AMNESTY HEARING SUBMISSIONS - QUESTIONS AND ANSWERS DATE 12-05-1997 NAME: J.J. DE RU DAY 1 <HR SIZE=0></B>JUDGE WILSON Before we commence the hearing of the De Ru case, there are certain questions I would like to ask. Firstly I understand that the evidence that we have heard up to now, has been transcribed. MS THABETHA Yes, it has. JUDGE WILSON As far as I know, none of the members of the Committee have been given a copy of that transcription. Can you tell me why? MS THABETHA JUDGE WILSON But what are we, the whole purpose of the transcription is to enable the hearings to proceed smoothly, so we will know what happened at the last one. You think it is not necessary for the Committee to know? MS THABETHA JUDGE WILSON Have you never appeared in a court where there has been an adjourned trial? Where the judicial Officer is given a copy of the transcriptive proceedings? Very well, I trust copies will be made available. MS THABETHA JUDGE WILSON None of them? And the interested parties who have been named by the applicant? MS THABETHA I spoke to Adv Madasa for the interested parties and he reassured me that there were no interested parties, but what I did is I ... JUDGE WILSON That there were what? MS THABETHA JUDGE WILSON How can we say there are no interested parties? MS THABETHA Can I request Adv Madasa to explain what he explained to me? JUDGE WILSON MS THABETHA Because I spoke to him about this. JUDGE WILSON Yes, but it is not his job to notify interested parties. MS THABETHA I did notify the relevant parties to this matter. JUDGE WILSON Hm? MS THABETHA I did notify the relevant parties to this matter, but after speaking to him, he said ... JUDGE WILSON You did notify the interested parties? MS THABETHA I did speak to them over the phone. JUDGE WILSON Hm? MS THABETHA I did speak to them over the phone. JUDGE WILSON All of them? MS THABETHA Not all of them because some ... JUDGE WILSON Who did you speak to? MS THABETHA JUDGE WILSON MS THABETHA JUDGE WILSON MS THABETHA Not all of them, but after speaking to Adv Madasa, he said it was for background information. They were not implicated as such. JUDGE WILSON So Mojafa you say you have notified? MS THABETHA Yes. JUDGE WILSON Of the time of the hearing and that he is implicated? MS THABETHA I said he had been implicated, yes. JUDGE WILSON Did you tell him in what way? MS THABETHA No. JUDGE WILSON As I understand the Appellate Division has requested? MS THABETHA No. JUDGE WILSON And Colonel Voigt? MS THABETHA Colonel Voigt is deceased. Like I say ... JUDGE WILSON And Mr Brand, the Regional Magistrate? MS THABETHA Mr? JUDGE WILSON Mr Brand the Regional Magistrate, the District Commandant, Colonel Mouton, Brigadier Geldenhuys, all of whom phoned him up so he said and wished him luck after he had murdered this one man? MS THABETHA JUDGE WILSON So practically nobody has been notified? MS THABETHA No. JUDGE WILSON Right, thank you. I see the applicant is Mr De Ru. I take it we are proceeding with his matter now. MS THABETHA JUDGE WILSON Have other applications been lodged on his behalf? MS THABETHA They have been lodged. JUDGE WILSON They have been? MS THABETHA Yes. I would hand then over to Adv Madasa to proceed with the submission if it is okay? ADV DE JAGER Can we perhaps be informed, I see that there was an agreement that no other applications or no other incidents will be dealt with now, but can both you and Mr Madasa tell us why was this agreement reached because as far as I could see the Attorney General said that he is postponing a case against the applicant on the condition that amnesty, an application for amnesty be made before the 10th of February and if it is not being made, he is proceeding to prosecute the applicant. Now it is, I can understand that you could agree that a matter will be postponed, but now we will have to come back at some stage or other, to hear the same applicant, perhaps the same legal representative or others and a whole new hearing will have to be convened, while it was an opportune moment to deal with all the matters and get rid of them? MS THABETHA As you aware Members of the Committee, that Adv Mpshe dealt with this matter. He is the one who spoke to the applicant telephonically so maybe I can ask the applicant to explain further because Adv Mpshe and the applicant spoke about this and they agreed. ADV DE JAGER I believe Mr Madasa will be in a position to tell us why we are not dealing with the matter as a whole and why we should deal with it piece meal. ADV MADASA As the Committee pleases. This hearing was adjourned specifically to conclude this particular application which has been dealt with partially before. At the previous hearing it was agreed between myself and Mr Mpshe not - to separate the applications for the simple reason that it transpired at that hearing that a number of interested parties had not been notified in terms of the requirements of the Act and with a view to avert further delay in the case issues were separated, I mean rather the applications were separated, that is why even today we are still proceeding with the very same application, not adding other additional matters. ADV DE JAGER ADV MADASA Indeed, new applications have been lodged. They were withdrawn at that stage for convenience, but a new application has been lodged. ADV DE JAGER In fact a totally new application had been lodged? ADV MADASA That is correct. ADV DE JAGER ADV MADASA I confirm the arrangement. JUDGE WILSON Those applications relate, I take it to acts performed by the applicant whilst a member of the South African Police Force. ADV MADASA That is correct. JUDGE WILSON When a great many of the factors which he has set out in the documents before us, are relevant? The pressures he worked under, the what he was taught in the course of his training, all that will have to be repeated then to a, perhaps a new Committee. ADV MADASA That is correct. JUDGE WILSON ADV MADASA Mr Chairman, if I may restate what I said. At that stage there was a problem about interested parties not being notified. JUDGE WILSON Yes, but how long ago was that? ADV MADASA At the previous hearing. JUDGE WILSON ADV MADASA From my side, all I can say is that the other application is not ready Mr Chairman. JUDGE WILSON Hm? ADV MADASA I cannot take the matter any further. The other application which we are talking about is not ready at this stage. MS THABETHA Can I say something Mr Chairman? JUDGE WILSON Yes. MS THABETHA JUDGE WILSON ADV MADASA Mr Chairman, I am not in a position to tell the Committee what is going to happen on the 6th of June. JUDGE WILSON Are you appearing in this case on the 6th of June? ADV MADASA No, I am not appearing Mr Chairman. JUDGE WILSON I thought there was a case adjourned to the 6th of June, it is in the correspondence. ADV MADASA Mr Chairman, I have no instructions regarding that matter. JUDGE WILSON ADV MADASA JUDGE WILSON ADV MADASA Mr Chairman, if I may begin. The applicant is not going to call any further evidence. I will be making submissions on the evidence already before the Committee. JUDGE NGOEPE Does the evidence propose to lead any evidence? MS THABETHA JUDGE WILSON You are at liberty if you wish to put any further questions, you could do so. MS THABETHA I will proceed to ask my questions. Mr De Ru, before killing the victims did you have any knowledge of their political affiliation? ADV DE JAGER Before answering, Mr De Ru, you are still under the previous oath. JAKOBUS JOHANNES DE RU (still under oath) MS THABETHA Mr De Ru, before killing the victims did you have any knowledge of their political affiliation? MR DE RU No. MS THABETHA Did you subsequently find out if they were indeed political activists? MR DE RU I believed so, Your Honour. MS THABETHA And can you tell the Committee members what political organisation did they belong to or what their political affiliations were? MR DE RU Your Honour, I believed that they were members of APLA. JUDGE NGOEPE I am sorry to interrupt. I thought the question was did you subsequently find out whether they had any, well say, political affiliations and then your answer as I understand it, was I believed so, but really it is not an answer to the question, the question is did you subsequently actually find out whether they were affiliated to any political organisation? MR DE RU No, Your Honour, I did not check this myself. MS THABETHA So it would be correct to say that you killed the victims on the basis of your believe that they were, they belonged to a political organisation? MR DE RU That would be the case, Your Honour. MS THABETHA Thank you, no further questions. JUDGE NGOEPE Any re-examination? ADV MADASA Yes, yes Mr Chairman. Mr De Ru, according to what you told the hearing, the Committee at the hearing before that your believe that the suspects belonged to a political organisation were based on the information you received from Colonel Voigt? MR DE RU That is the case with regard to the crimes committed, that was the information made available to me. ADV MADASA Colonel Voigt ... CHAIRMAN Did he really say that, or are you asking a leading question on that? Did he say that he believed that they were associated with a political organisation as a result of information he received from Colonel Voigt? ADV MADASA CHAIRMAN Well, let us ask him. Why did you believe that the deceased were affiliated to any political organisation? You can repeat the answer you gave last time, if you did give an answer last time. MR DE RU Your Honour, as I have mentioned at the previous occasion, the persons who were responsible for these crimes were politically inspired by the statements of their political leaders, the statement of "Kill a farmer, kill a boer." The nature of the crime committed and the cruelty of the crime, I have already explained on the previous occasion at the previous sitting of this Committee. ADV MADASA I have no further questions. JUDGE WILSON Did Colonel Voigt identify the people or did he merely tell you that there were people who had this policy and you believed that the deceased was one of them? MR DE RU Your Honour, I believed this myself. JUDGE WILSON MR DE RU Your Honour, I did not hear the entire question. The interpreter did not hear it entirely. JUDGE WILSON MR DE RU No Your Honour, not with regard to the first incident. There was information with regard to the first incident. JUDGE WILSON Thank you. ADV MADASA Sorry Mr Chairman, with your permission may I ask a last question following up on the question that was just asked? JUDGE WILSON Certainly. ADV MADASA Mr De Ru, can you again tell the Committee as to how you, under what circumstances did you receive these two suspects? Under what circumstances did you receive the two suspects, from whom and what were you told about them, that is the question. MR DE RU With regard to the first one Your Honour, I received the information from Colonel Voigt. ADV DE JAGER Could you refer to their names if you could remember this? MR DE RU I will Your Honour. With regard to Jonas Rampalile, the Kroonstad incident, I received him from Colonel Voigt after he called me up to do the identifications. ADV DE JAGER Could you repeat that? MR DE RU JUDGE WILSON Have you got Exhibit A in front of you? The annexure to your application? Not Exhibit A, Annexure A to your application for amnesty. What pages do these appear on? MR DE RU Your Honour, I will provide this information to you. It starts on page 136. JUDGE WILSON Yes. ADV DE JAGER The attached memorandum. JUDGE WILSON Annexure A. MR DE RU ADV DE JAGER Annexure A is 11, 12, 13, marked up in the top right corner. Annexure A starts on page 10. MR DE RU JUDGE WILSON Is this page 15, page 6 of Annexure A? MR DE RU Yes, Your Honour. My pages are marked differently from the pages before you but it begins on page 15, the last paragraph. JUDGE WILSON That is the first piece and the second incident is on page 17, is that correct? MR DE RU That is correct. JUDGE WILSON These are the two matters to which you are referring MR DE RU That is correct, thank you Your Honour. CHAIRMAN The victim in Sasolburg, was he also a farmer? MR DE RU The victim in Kragbron. It was a older person, I can describe to you. Kragbron is a small place that mainly was constituted of an electrical power station and the houses there were rented by aged person at a very low rate. 90% of the people who live there are very old people. ADV MADASA Yes, but he was not killed on his farm? MR DE RU That is correct, he was not killed on a farm. ADV DE JAGER On what grounds did you believe that the murder at Kragbron was a political murder or did you not consider this a politically related murder? MR DE RU It was because of the statement "Kill a farmer, kill a boer, one settler, one bullet". The attacks were against aged persons and farmers. ADV DE JAGER The Kragbron incident, however, was not a farmer. In that case the slogan of "Kill a farmer, kill a boer", would be not apparently applicable in this case? MR DE RU Not as such in that particular case, but the slogan of "One settler, one bullet" - this was the same claim and this was an aged person who was killed. The intention was to murder aged persons and farmers. ADV DE JAGER MR DE RU Sacharia Mofokeng. ADV DE JAGER No, the deceased. MR DE RU Mr Meiring. ADV DE JAGER Mr Meiring, on what grounds did you believe that the murder on Mr Meiring or the killing of Mr Meiring was a politically motivated act? MR DE RU As I presented to you, the fact that this was the killing of an old person, an aged person and that the person was attacked with a knife, there was a firearm taken. It is part of my information that these people were particularly looking for firearms to be able to continue with further acts of political acts. Why I would differentiate between this act and a common criminal act - to commit a merely criminal act one would look for a younger victim, this was an old person. A person of considerable age, a weak person in relation to any person who might attack him. The selection of victims of people who were attacked, were politically motivated. Just as the attack on the farmers, these were people who were far away from the people immediately in their environment. JUDGE WILSON Who said that these had to be older persons? MR DE RU This was their own statement that they had to kill farmers and older persons. These were people who were easily killed. JUDGE WILSON This is as it is happening in Natal at this moment, they are killing farmers, the old farmers. MR DE RU That is a fact Your Honour. JUDGE WILSON But this is not APLA, these are mere criminals? MR DE RU Your Honour, I cannot make a statement in this regard, because I am not involved in those investigations. But my knowledge at that time and in that period of time from 1988, 1989 through to 1992, these acts were generally seen to be committed within this particular milieu, environment where these are politically motivated people. JUDGE WILSON This is what you believed? I therefor believed, is what you say, that everyone of these kinds of criminals were simply members of the ANC/PAC or APLA? MR DE RU That is in fact the case Your Honour, that is exactly what I believed. ADV DE JAGER Mr De Ru, what we are trying to ascertain is whether this conviction of yours, what were your grounds for this believe? It might indeed be that a common criminal and a common murderer as one finds today and as one had it in the past, would also seek out the simplest target, the easiest place to kill or murder, what made this particular criminal act appear different to you from common criminal acts? MR DE RU I understand your question Your Honour. I am asking you to understand this in the light of the period where this occurred. I understand the statement by the Chairman, but the situation in the present time is not the same as during the period 1988 to 1992, there was a heightened campaign against farmers and older people due to politically motivated slogans and convictions. The impact of the statements of leaders on these people, it might well be that there would have been crimes committed previously that would have been seen differently, but I am asking you to see this in the light of the circumstances of that time, the statements by political leaders, the impact of that on people and that is why I believed that these were politically motivated acts. ADV DE JAGER I have problem with this, I can understand that there would have been several such murders or more of these murders, but during that particular period the common criminal did not entirely disappear. For you to have taken a step as drastic as this, you justify this on the grounds that this was a politically oriented or motivated murder, what I want you to do is to distinguish for us what happened to the common criminal. There must have been crimes committed at that time that were not politically motivated and you must explain to us why you considered this act to have been politically motivated. What were your grounds for this conviction? MR DE RU I believed that the crimes committed and the murders on these, the cruel murders on the farmers and on aged persons, I understood as being committed by politically motivated persons. ADV DE JAGER Was there any particular fact about the method that was used in the murder that would have distinguished it from a common criminal act? MR DE RU Yes, the cruelty of the murder. The shock that it had to generate the chaos that it had to create - so the cruelty of the murder and the impact that that would have had on aged people and on farmers, that is what I believed. CHAIRMAN Is that all you wish to ask? ADV MADASA MR DE RU Your Honour, I can say that in terms of the targets, these were farmers and older people. ADV MADASA Just one more, last question. These people you have talked about who lived in that place, did you have any information of their relationship with the farmer community generally, were they related, were they relatives, were they people coming from Free State or what? MR DE RU Your Honour, many of these were retired workers or farm people who retired and came to live on this place because it was a small community. CHAIRMAN What about the deceased himself, did you know whether he had such connections? Not the deceased you killed but the victim of the person you killed? MR DE RU Mr Meiring, are you referring to Mr Meiring? CHAIRMAN Yes. MR DE RU Your Honour, no, I cannot make comment in this regard. ADV MADASA I have no further questions. CHAIRMAN It may well be that after we have heard evidence on the other applications that we wish to ask the applicant further questions about this and one has heard his motives for performing the other acts, what they were based on. Do you understand now the relevance of hearing all the applications? Do you not pose to lead any further evidence now you said? ADV MADASA No, Mr Chairman. CHAIRMAN I have been informed that the Chairman of the Free State Agricultural Union, Mr Gouws is present in the hearing and I do not know whether he would be prepared to consult with the two persons leading evidence and to give evidence if either of them wish to call him. Would he be prepared to consult with them, very briefly now? I offer you the opportunity, both of you, to consult with him as to whether he can give evidence as to the circumstances existing at the time in this regard and we will adjourn shortly to enable you to do so. MS THABET Thank you Mr Chairman. COMMITTEE ADJOURNS - ON RESUMPTION CHAIRMAN Have you had an opportunity of consulting with the gentleman? ADV MADASA Yes, Mr Chairman, we have had an opportunity to consult with Dr Gouws, whom I am calling as a witness for the applicant. CHAIRMAN Very well. ADV DE JAGER Mr Gouws, your full names please. PIETER JAKOBUS GOUWS (sworn states) ADV DE JAGER Doctor, you are welcome to give your testimony in Afrikaans or English, whichever you prefer. We had thought that you might want to use German, that would be difficult. ADV MADASA As the Committee pleases. Dr Gouws, is it correct that you are the President of the South African Agricultural Union? DR GOUWS No, I am President of the Free State Agricultural Union. ADV MADASA Where do you live at the moment, where do you live? DR GOUWS I am living, actually most of the time in Bothaville as a Member of Parliament, I am also you know a certain period of the year, I am spending down in Cape Town, but I am farming in the Bothaville and Bultfontein areas. ADV MADASA Do you know the applicant next to you, Mr De Ru? DR GOUWS ADV MADASA Mr De Ru has lodged an application before this Committee wherein he is asking for amnesty in relation to certain acts which he committed and presently serving sentence. He told the Committee that he committed those acts with a political motive and he told the court that the victims, his victims were allegedly APLA members. Now, I would like you to tell the Committee if you can, as to in accordance with your knowledge what was the relationship between the police, that is security forces and the farmers in the Free State concerning security issues? DR GOUWS And very often this question of security in the rural areas came, you know, as one of the pertinent questions, then secondly based on the strong viewpoint I had on security and other matters relating to the rural areas, I was elected President, no, I was not elected, I stood for President of the Free State Agricultural Union in 1990, I was not elected and then I was elected on that basis in 1991. So, the point I am trying to make is that security during that period of time and specifically security of the farming community, the older people in the farming community and then in the more rural communities, was stressed by me and by a number of other people. The reason for that is that we have had political slogans doing the rounds, like for instance Mr Peter Mokaba would come on TV so often and say "Kill the Boer, kill the farmer", and then I am talking about Boer with a capital "B", implying actually to my mind Afrikaners and farmers would indicate the farming community as such, in other words to my mind he referred to Afrikaners and the Afrikaners who would be in most cases then farmers as such. But during this period of time, and I am referring during 1989, 1990, 1991 specifically, we put a tremendous lot of pressure on the police force. I, at many, many occasions said that the murders of the farmers, the attacks on the farmers based on the brutality of the attacks, based on the fact that most cases only weapons were taken, and thirdly that in most cases that we have been told or that I heard, very little else had been removed out of these homesteads, out of the farming communities. ADV MADASA Sorry Dr Gouws, if you could go a little bit slower please. DR GOUWS Sorry. Chairman, perhaps I should switch to Afrikaans then I could go slower. I will do it, but perhaps then that would make the translation a little bit more difficult, perhaps it is better that I should continue in English. Is there any specific ruling in this regard or preference? No preference. JUDGE WILSON I think it might be easier from the recording point of view if you stayed in one language, but if you feel uncomfortable and want to change ... DR GOUWS So you can understand the total pressure that was building up in the community during this period of time. And Chairman, lastly I would like to say that the senior police as far as I am concerned, never really played open cards with us. When I am talking about senior police, I am talking about the people in charge, like for instance here in the Free State, in stead of playing open cards with us, really briefing us on the detail what was going on, they even go in political battles with us. I had a political battle with General Calitz through the newspaper at one stage regarding you know, the safety and security aspect of the farms. So to summarise Chairman, I think from a farming community side where I have been involved as a politician as well as a leader of the farming community and specifically referring to the years 1989, 1990, 1991, we accepted based on the information available to us and the perceptions created, that the political force or forces have been involved with the specific design to disrupt economic activities in the rural areas, to murder out farmers or by doing, by murdering out farmers, by the brutality of their acts, and I may add, during this period of time we called on all the old farmers to please move from the farms and to settle in towns or in areas where they are protected because they would be the first targets. It became evidence that in most cases, these attacks would be directed towards the older members of the farming community and we asked them at numerous occasions through press releases and other statements, we asked them to protect themselves, but in the final analysis please leave the farms. We also put tremendous pressure through the political channels and through organised agriculture on the police force and I am talking about police force at local levels too and I am honest with you today if I say that we perhaps helped to create an atmosphere during that period of time, that we were under siege, that we were under attack and that political forces being applied against us had one purpose in mind, that is really to take our land, to wipe us out as economic force or to destroy our political influence. We even went so far to try to install a manned radio in every single farm homestead and I think that helped to a certain extent. But Chairman, though perhaps a little bit elaborated, but I do think it was necessary to draw a better background for what actually happened during the period 1989 to 1991 as far as I am concerned, in the Free State rural areas, thank you. ADV MADASA DR GOUWS JUDGE WILSON And did you have the problem that we had elsewhere that they were all short of vehicles? DR GOUWS ADV MADASA And were you able to distinguish between attacks of a political nature on the farmers and or Afrikaners in the Free State and attacks of a criminal nature? DR GOUWS ADV MADASA You say some of the attacks were indicative of a pre-planned attack? What features did you observe or were you told about which indicated that the attacks were planned by trained people? DR GOUWS ADV MADASA In one of the cases in which the applicant is applying for amnesty, a White person was killed at a residence which apparently was occupied by older people. Now you have made reference to such an arrangement. What I want to know is whether personally or by information are you aware of any security arrangements which we done to protect such people which you had called to organise themselves in such places? DR GOUWS CHAIRMAN Sorry, but Dr Gouws it is not clear to me whether you are saying that Kragbron was also one of those as you put it certain villages that were bought by the farmers or arranged for by the farmers for people? DR GOUWS No. CHAIRMAN It was not one of them? DR GOUWS ADV MADASA DR GOUWS ADV MADASA Right, can you give perhaps more clarity as to the difference or similarity between the White Boer and boer? What do you mean by that? DR GOUWS ADV MADASA Can you explain to the Committee what do you mean by the fact that there is a distinction between the Boer and the boer? DR GOUWS Yes, this is a political debate, political parties make their live out of this one, but in general Boer is referring to the Afrikaner in a broader context, in other words what would be politically, by certain political parties be implied as pure bred Afrikaners that should be, you know have certain rights on whatever land, whatever the case may be, in other words we talk about Afrikaner as you would find it in text books. Then boer would refer to the farming community as such, which may be Afrikaners but which may be some other people too. Now in the Free State the two are basically synonymous because most and at that stage specifically, now you have a small number of commercial Black farmers too, but here during 1989, 1991 probably ninety some percent of the farming community in the Free State would be Afrikaner people, in other words Boers and then farmers, boers and very few of them would be English speaking people. ADV MADASA So the call to attack Boers, did you perceive it to be a call to attack Boers or boers? JUDGE WILSON DR GOUWS Yes. And Chairman, I would like to repeat that in the Free State those two things are synonymous, they are the same. If you attack the Afrikaner here you attack the farmer basically and it will be the capital B and the small B. ADV DE JAGER If you make a call "kill the Boers, kill the farmers", it would include the Afrikaner and the English speaking farmer or even if there were Black farmers they would be included under the criteria of farmers? DR GOUWS Yes, I think I said that precisely at the beginning. We read it, I personally read it this way and I think most of the farming community read it this way that it would mean the Afrikaner and then secondly specifically reference is made to the farming community, the farmers as such in other words the commercial farms we are talking about here and those farmers would be in most cases the Afrikaner too, but it could be some English speaking people too, even some Black farmers. But as I have said we have very few of them in the Free State. ADV MADASA Now the attacks you referred to as brutal, were they prevalent prior to 1989? DR GOUWS ADV MADASA Right, you have said the way attacks prior to 1989 and they escalated later on, now my question is those who occurred prior to 1989, were they brutal and similar in nature as those which occurred later on? DR GOUWS ADV MADASA You said you put pressure on the police to act, what sort of pressure did you put? DR GOUWS We went so far to say if we would get some of these murderers before the police, we would hang them. ADV MADASA Were there members of security forces who were also members of political organisations? DR GOUWS Yes, and this is one of the reasons I started out with the political scene right in the beginning in 1989 because in this whole Northern Free State I think the political awareness during that period up to 1994 was tremendous, or immense I should rather say, it was immense and it worked through to the security forces and to the policemen and I would say they were under a lot of local pressure from the local communities and amongst the people that they operate and they would deal with everyday, there would have been a tremendous amount of pressure being placed on them and they probably would have been in certain cases, might have been members of specific political parties - for that I cannot vouch, I do not know, but independently if they were members of any of the different political parties, on all of them would have been a lot of pressure. ADV MADASA Do you know or are you aware if the members of the security police were recruited from the farming community? DR GOUWS I can refer back to when I was a young person, I grew up as a poor White as they called us because the Afrikaners from my age used to be, or most of them were very, very poor people and in those days it was one of the biggest honours to become a policeman, it was really something to become a policeman because that was one of the ways in which you could get somewhere in life. And I would guess in later years probably up to a couple of years ago, many, many Afrikaner people, Afrikaans speaking but let us say, Afrikaner people, farming people would have entered the police force, yes I think amongst many, many families, farming families you will find members of the police force. I had an uncle myself, Commissioner of the police, General Gouws some time ago, quite 30 years or something like that, 20 years ago, so yes within the farming community it was a recruiting ground for police force and for the armed forces. ADV MADASA I have no further questions Mr Chairman. CHAIRMAN Any questions? MS THABET Just one. You refer to farmers, Afrikaners joining the police force. I am interested more in Mr De Ru, did you have any knowledge of Mr De Ru being part of that group of you know, farmers or Afrikaners, so in other words what is your knowledge in as far as Mr De Ru is concerned - was he part of that group Afrikaner group even though he was a policeman? DR GOUWS MS THABET Thank you. Thank you. JUDGE WILSON I think implicit in what you have just said is that in smaller communities the police are much more members of the community and subject to much more pressures. DR GOUWS Yes. Chairman, they are basically part and parcel, it is not an abstract relationship, it is a housefriend type of relationship existing there. I do think that it is much more personal and emotionally you probably get involved, I see it in my own personal smaller community too. CHAIRMAN You are a lawyer, so I am going to ask you to look at a rather unpleasant picture. Will you look at the, I am showing you from Exhibit 1, photographs 6 and 7. I think you referred in your evidence to violent attacks, is that the type of attack you envisaged? DR GOUWS Chairman, this is absolutely ghastly, it is brutal, this is what I am referring to. May I add to this I spoke for instance, I would give you another example, to the widow of a person who had been killed near Vredefort, Grootkop, and I was at the funeral that specific day and that lady became totally hysterical and she grabbed my arm and she said when they kicked her and they were pulling her around by the hair, all the way around through the house, they said those specific people said, we will kill you all. That is now her words I am relating, we have come to kill you Boere. And I became so emotional that day, I am supposed to be a person who is a little bit, who should be abstract looking at these things, I became so emotional that day that I felt like if I get hold of one of those people, because it is a defenceless person, it is a tiny little woman, to treat her, kick her, jump on her and those type of things, if I have found those people, I probably would have committed a crime myself. JUDGE WILSON CHAIRMAN Dr Gouws I do not understand you as saying that every attack during that period on a farmer on a boer or on a farmer was necessarily politically motivated, I do not understand you to be saying that, or are you saying that? DR GOUWS CHAIRMAN You are a lawyer yourself, would I be right to say that each case then would have to be looked on his own merits and in the light of its own facts and circumstances? DR GOUWS CHAIRMAN Yes, no I was not actually saying that you said so, but I was trying to get your evidence be properly contextualised. DR GOUWS Yes. CHAIRMAN DR GOUWS Chairman, that is possible, I am not able to judge that. I as a outsider, who is not sitting in judgement now but trying to relive a period of time when you see leading political figures going on TV telling their followers to kill the Boers, to kill the farmers, I think it is creating a scene in your mind that you easily connect what is going on with a political orientation, because my experience is and as a leader of persons too, that through what you say and what you kind of indicate through saying it and the way in which you are saying it, your followers may interpret it as a direct order, very, very easily and they may not even be trained followers, they may be even people sitting on the sidelines - may see this as a ... (tape ends) it is part of the total goal, the total broader goal, they are a very minor part of. CHAIRMAN I just wondered though, there were a number of murders around the Verkeerdevlei area? DR GOUWS Yes. CHAIRMAN DR GOUWS Yes, Chairman, with all due respect to Judges, you also know Judge Erasmus, what he found years ago. We and I am perhaps a little bit on dangerous ground now ... CHAIRMAN DR GOUWS JUDGE WILSON Would it be convenient for us to take a short adjournment at this stage? COMMITTEE ADJOURNS - ON RESUMPTION CHAIRMAN On page 2 thereof, the paragraphs starting "gesien teen hierdie" etc, etc, I think it is the third paragraph, the last sentence thereof in that paragraph "in hierdie uitvoering van sy opgelegte taak moes hy mense wat die apartheidstelsel omver wou werp, seker elimineer. DR GOUWS Seker elimineer? CHAIRMAN Yes, "seker elimineer". Now, I - am I correct in saying that the support is being given to Mr De Ru and understanding being given of his situation by the Union on the basis that the people he killed would have been people who were - who would have committed the crimes in the process of trying to overthrow the Government, in other words political? Is it on the understanding that the people he killed were, shall I say, terrorists or people who were trying to overthrow the Government? DR GOUWS CHAIRMAN DR GOUWS Chairman, no I would like to address this point. I do think in a farming community you will see that in many, many cases like for instance this slaughter of this little girl in Ficksburg, I cannot remember her name, she was killed, shot through the window and the people just disappeared, and if you talk to her parents today or to that community today, they would be glad if anyone gets hold of that criminal, that political criminal, because they see it as a political deed and there has not been forgiveness in that community, there is not reconciliation in that community, they still see it as a political act that got away unpunished, so I must convey to you that amongst the farming community, there would be tacit support, if not open support for political murderers to be dealt with extremely harshly, whoever gets hold of them. CHAIRMAN DR GOUWS I can turn the question around Chairman, that no ordinary criminal in his right mind would go into a house knowing that those people are extremely heavily armed, that they are vigil and that they would kill on sight, they would shoot on sight, so my argument would be, the way I look at it reasonably, would be that you must be an extreme case when you go in with these odds stacked against you. CHAIRMAN Thank you. ADV DE JAGER DR GOUWS I just wanted to call on the Chairman, because it is very quickly. My apologies Adv De Jager, Mr Fourie was a retired engineer and the visit had to do with activities concerning planning that he had done on the particular farm and in his conversation with me, he extensively discussed the security situation with me, he was deeply concerned about his personal experience of the worsening situation. ADV DE JAGER DR GOUWS I had heard and this is hearsay, I know that Mr Fourie was considered to be a very liberal person, I think he was a member of the Democratic Party, that is what I had heard. I never personally asked him about his political affiliations. CHAIRMAN Just a minute, sorry to interrupt you Mr De Jager, is Mr Fourie one of the victims in this case or is it a different Fourie? ADV DE JAGER A victim in a different case, in the Verkeerdevlei case. CHAIRMAN DR GOUWS CHAIRMAN Thank you. DR GOUWS Thank you Chairman. MS THABET No further questions, Mr Chairman. ADV DE JAGER Just one thing. Doctor, you had mentioned that you had negotiations with senior police Officers but that it was never clearly said to you, you had the impression that they had not fully informed you with regard to circumstances. Before I ask this question, I want to make the statement that we have had testimony for instance from General Van deer Mere which indicated that at certain points the situation was of such a nature that it was of a critical nature, people were not informed about the situation because it might have caused people to become panicky about the situation. Do you want to make comment in this regard? DR GOUWS JUDGE WILSON Thank you very much for having agreed to come and give evidence here, I am sure everyone is obliged to you for your assistance and thank you also for your offer to appear at any further hearings that we require your assistance. DR GOUWS Thank you Chairman, I hope I was of some assistance, I appreciate it. CHAIRMAN Does that conclude the evidence now? ADV MADASA Yes, it does Mr Chairman. CHAIRMAN ADV MADASA CHAIRMAN Very well. ADV MADASA CHAIRMAN MS THABET Thank you Mr Chairman. ADV DE JAGER Sorry before we adjourn, would there be any other case going on today, is there anything ready to go on? MS THABET Yes ... ADV DE JAGER Are the applicants present, are the witnesses present, are the representatives here? MS THABET CHAIRMAN As we might be able to do something else, then I think we take a slightly shorter adjournment and we adjourn until a quarter to two, does that suit you. COMMISSION ADJOURNS - ON RESUMPTION CHAIRMAN Right, what is the position now? MS THABET The position Mr Chair is that Adv Madasa will not make any further submissions, he prefers to make them at the end of the second matter if and when it is heard. I have consulted with the Investigators that they will give me submissions and as soon as they are there, I will make a copy to Adv Madasa and I will make a copy to the Committee Members. JUDGE WILSON MS THABET That will be done, Mr Chairman. ADV MADASA May I be excused Mr Chairman. CHAIRMAN MS THABET I will do that Mr Chairman. ADV MADASA May I be excused Mr Chairman? Thank you. MS THABET JUDGE WILSON Where are they coming from? ADV MTHEMBU From (indistinct) prison, locally Mr Chairman, but I have spoken to the warder in charge, he said to me that they should be here any minute from now. JUDGE WILSON ... further enquiries to be made as to whether in fact they are on their way or what has happened, and some explanation as to why they were not here on time? Carry on. MS THABET Mr Chairman, we are proceeding now with the matter of Nkgwedi, Magoda, May, Leeuw which was part-heard and I will hand over to my colleague, Mr Mthembu. ADV DE JAGER MS THABET There should be a copy in Cape Town, I can ask them to fax it. ADV MTHEMBU Thank you Mr Chairman. Mr Chairman, you will recall on the last occasion the Committee as in view of the fact that the loot or the items regarding this incident was found in the possession of various of the applicants, that the Committee would like an explanation as to why they were found at various places, am I correct Mr Chairman? CHAIRMAN Yes, in a sense, you are referring to a statement or a document which was handed in which told us that these item, such and such items were found in the possession of such and such an applicant, etc, etc. ADV MTHEMBU That is correct sir. CHAIRMAN And then we invited the applicants if they so wished to comment on those allegations. ADV MTHEMBU That is correct sir. CHAIRMAN ADV MTHEMBU CHAIRMAN I am trying to locate my own copy of that document, do you have an extra copy perhaps or ... ADV MTHEMBU I do sir. Thank you Mr Chairman. Mr Chairman I will call Mr Leeuw to the witness stand. CHAIRMAN MR LEEUW Yes. HENDRIK LEEUW (sworn states) ADV MTHEMBU Mr Leeuw, at the time of the arrest, where were you residing? MR LEEUW I would prefer to give my testimony in Sesotho. ADV MTHEMBU My question was at the time of the arrest, where were you residing? MR LEEUW I stayed at Section K, number 337. ADV MTHEMBU Now according to a statement handed in by Officer De la Rey, who was a policeman in charge to investigate your matter, he says that there was certain articles that were found at the house of one Lisbeth Ntlana, who apparently is your mother-in-law and these are the following items. Mr Chairman, the contents of this statement is in Afrikaans, now I am not certain if I should read the articles as they have been numerated in Afrikaans on the document? CHAIRMAN There are translation services, they will translate from Afrikaans into his language, but which paragraph are you actually ... ADV MTHEMBU MR LEEUW They were all recovered at Section K, number 337, they found them at my place where I reside at K Section. ADV MTHEMBU What is the number, 3 what? 337. MR LEEUW 337,337, Section K. ADV MTHEMBU But the statement says they were found at 496? MR LEEUW These articles were found w here I stay, I do not know about the number you are referring to. ADV MTHEMBU Why would then Officer De la Rey contend that these articles were found at 496 E, in stead of 337 K as you now are telling this Committee? MR LEEUW It is because Officer De la Rey stated so so that this case could not be in our favour, they were found at 337. ADV MTHEMBU The same page, Mr Chairperson, paragraph 20. ADV DE JAGER He was accused 1, is that correct? ADV MTHEMBU Number 3, sir. ADV DE JAGER Number 3? TRANSLATOR 2 is English, can you hear that? Can you hear 2, 2 for English, nothing? Can you hear nothing at all on channel 2? Can you hear anything on channel 2, nothing on channel 2? Judge Wilson, can you hear on 2? ADV MTHEMBU I will refer to the next paragraph, Mr Chairman, paragraph 20. Mr Leeuw, do you know one Alice Nglakani of 1766, C Section? MR LEEUW Yes, I do know her. ADV MTHEMBU What is she to you? MR LEEUW She is my wife. ADV MTHEMBU MR LEEUW Yes, I do have. All of the above mentioned were not found where you stated, they were found at K Section. There are others that I gave to Petrus and Daniel Magoda, cameras and eight ball point pens and a calculator. We set them aside, all those that you mentioned were found at 337, at Section K. ADV DE JAGER MR LEEUW I gave them to Daniel Magoda. ADV MTHEMBU Mr Leeuw, there is a request from the translators that you should speak at least a little bit louder. Now, thirdly do you still recall which articles you gave to Mr Magoda? MR LEEUW I do, I can recall those that I gave to Mr Magoda were two plastic - bank plastics which contains coins, bank calculator and a shaver included in those articles. ADV MTHEMBU Are you referring to the articles listed on page 5, paragraph 21, which according to this document was "one yellow plastic bag containing one Pentax camera, one grey bag containing an injector ... CHAIRMAN Sorry, sorry, but these were not found from this gentleman. ADV MTHEMBU Yes, sir, these articles are those that he says he gave to Mr Magoda. CHAIRMAN All right. ADV MTHEMBU One small bag for glasses containing a Tedelex calculator, three shaving devices, makes Braun, Hitachi and Remington, one black container containing eight pens, two plastic bank bags containing old and foreign coins. Are these the items that you say you gave to Mr Magoda? MR LEEUW Yes, they are the articles that I gave to Mr Magoda. ADV DE JAGER Could we just have clarity on this - Mr Magoda was he accused 4 at the trial? MR LEEUW Yes, that is correct. ADV DE JAGER Who was accused 2, who was accused 2? MR LEEUW He was Petrus Nkgwedi. ADV DE JAGER Was he number 2? MR LEEUW Yes, that is correct, he was the second accused. ADV DE JAGER Number 1? MR LEEUW: Mishak May. It was Mishak May. ADV DE JAGER And number 3 then would be Hendrik Leeuw. MR LEEUW Yes, that is so. ADV MTHEMBU MR LEEUW The purpose of separating these articles was that the police should not confiscate these articles at my place, we have to separate them in three groups. Some were left in the car with Mishak May, some were left with me so that when our Commander arrives, I give them to him. JUDGE WILSON MR LEEUW We could not do so because I was the one who separated all those articles. Some of them were with me. JUDGE WILSON MR LEEUW There are those that I handed to Daniel Magoda, so that I could get them from Magoda and then thereafter sell the coins so that we get the money before the Commander arrives. ADV DE JAGER When did you expect the Commander, on what date? ADV MTHEMBU JUDGE WILSON MR LEEUW We were arrested after two days. JUDGE WILSON MR LEEUW JUDGE WILSON MR LEEUW ADV MTHEMBU With regard to the motor vehicle, do you have any explanation to make? MR LEEUW Yes, I have an explanation. As I have explained before, we took the car, we were supposed to sell the car either in Swaziland or Lesotho so that we can take the money to the Commander, so that we will help the APLA army to continue with their objective. ADV MTHEMBU And do you have any comment to make about the allegations here or the submissions made by Officer De la Rey regarding the whereabouts of these articles or where they were found? MR LEEUW ADV DE JAGER MR LEEUW ADV MTHEMBU Mr Leeuw, do you have anything to add before this Committee or is that your explanation regarding these articles? MR LEEUW ADV MTHEMBU Are you finished sir? MR LEEUW Yes, I am finished, sir. ADV MTHEMBU Mr De la Rey says on paragraph 22, he says that as a result of information he received from accused 2 and 3 which I believe 3 is yourself, the following items were handed to him: one brown documents bag containing a black handled hunting knife in a brown leather bag. This was handed to him by yourself, he claims. Did that in fact happen? MR LEEUW ADV MTHEMBU MR LEEUW There was a knife which belonged to the deceased and there was a knife which belongs to my house or to my family. ADV MTHEMBU Well, the one with a black handle to whom did it belong? MR LEEUW ADV MTHEMBU There is reference to a black handled hunting knife, to whom did it belong? MR LEEUW That was my - my knife was given, that knife in court, then I took it home. ADV MTHEMBU MR LEEUW Those were with Nkgwedi, they took them from the house. ADV MTHEMBU Thank you. ADV DE JAGER MR LEEUW That is correct, the car that they used was from town. They did confiscate this at number 337. ADV DE JAGER Yes, they say it was confiscated from 1766 C? MR LEEUW That is not so, they found them at 337, Section K. ADV DE JAGER MR LEEUW That is where my mother-in-law stays. ADV DE JAGER MR LEEUW ADV DE JAGER MR LEEUW ADV DE JAGER MR LEEUW I cannot explain about the articles in the car, because I cannot tell what was left in the car. Things that we took were those that we can sell, so that we get money to help our struggle. ADV DE JAGER MR LEEUW ADV DE JAGER MR LEEUW They were still at K Section where I stayed. ADV DE JAGER What did the police find on your person? MR LEEUW What the police found was the cheque to the value of R200-00 and two Krugerrand coins. Some of them I had already exchanged them for money so that when the Commander arrives, we would use the money I got out of selling these coins. He found the amount of R500-00 that the police took from me. De la Rey took the money from me. JUDGE WILSON Were you supposed to sell these goods or were you supposed to give them to your Commander? MR LEEUW I was supposed to sell them so that I can give the money to my Commander. He had to refuel his car. JUDGE WILSON But you just told us he found a cheque for R200-00 on you? Was that correct? MR LEEUW Yes, that is correct. JUDGE WILSON Where did that cheque come from? MR LEEUW I cannot recall the place where we exchanged the cheque. JUDGE WILSON What sort of place was it? MR LEEUW The place was in Bloemfontein, in Maitland Street along the right side of Maitland Street in Bloemfontein. JUDGE WILSON What sort of place was it, you say where we exchanged the cheque? MR LEEUW It was at a jewellery shop. JUDGE WILSON MR LEEUW It was the one that I received after having exchanged the coin. CHAIRMAN Where was it? MR LEEUW Are you referring to the cheque? CHAIRMAN Yes. MR LEEUW They found it on my person, in my pocket. JUDGE WILSON Now, he talks of a cheque for R1 200-00 not R200-00. MR LEEUW I am referring to the cheque to the value of R1 200-00. JUDGE WILSON Well, up to now you have been talking to me about R200-00, R200-00. When I asked you if it was R200-00, you confirmed it was. Do you now say it was R1 200-00? R1 200-00? MR LEEUW I did not understand you properly. JUDGE WILSON MR LEEUW Maybe I erred in that. ADV DE JAGER Were there two cheques involved, one for R200-00 and one for R1 200-00? MR LEEUW There was only one cheque. ADV DE JAGER MR LEEUW The cheque was supposed to be taken on Monday for - to be cashed, so I was told to come back on Monday to cash the cheque. INTERPRETER ADV DE JAGER For what amount was that cheque you were supposed to take back on Monday? MR LEEUW It was to the value of R1 200-00. ADV DE JAGER And you received that for selling what coin, what kind of coin was sold? Or was it different coins sold? MR LEEUW There were two Krugerrands coins, one was bigger, the one was a bit smaller in size. ADV DE JAGER And were they both sold for a total of R1 200-00? MR LEEUW Yes, that is correct. ADV MTHEMBU Mr Leeuw, do you have anything ... (tape ends) Is that your case? MR LEEUW ADV MTHEMBU Thank you then sir. MS THABET MR LEEUW These articles that were found there, they were the ones that we took from the house. Those that they took from my house there where I stayed. However, they took extra articles that belonged to me from my house. MS THABET INTERPRETER He is not saying that. MS THABET What is he saying? INTERPRETER MS THABET Thank you. No further questions. ADV DE JAGER Which articles were your personal belongings that the police confiscated or took with them? MR LEEUW There was a silver radio player that the police took and money to the value of R500-00 and some washing rags that they took along with. ADV DE JAGER Sorry, how - what was the amount of the money? MR LEEUW It was R500-00, bank notes. JUDGE WILSON All they took that belonged to you was the silver radio, money to the value of R500-00 and some washing rags? MR LEEUW Yes, that is correct. JUDGE WILSON MR LEEUW CHAIRMAN MR LEEUW Yes, I recall that. This knife was handed to me during the trial or at court. They did give it to the police afterwards. CHAIRMAN MR LEEUW The police took these things whilst they were at my place. They took these things when they arrived at my place, not that I gave them information where they would find these things. CHAIRMAN Well, they said you gave them information. They went there and you handed it over to them. MR LEEUW I gave nothing to the police. They out of their own will took these things from my house. ADV DE JAGER MR LEEUW Yes, that is correct. ADV DE JAGER MR LEEUW ADV DE JAGER MR LEEUW JUDGE WILSON What was it doing in your house? MR LEEUW We found this knife amongst the clothing or articles that were in the car. The things that I took from the car and put them in my house where the police found them, were I found Mishak May. CHAIRMAN So you found the knife in the car and you took it to your house where you hid it somewhere? Is that the position? MR LEEUW That is so. ADV MTHEMBU Thank you Mr Chairman. Now we will call Mr May, Mr Chairman. INTERPRETER ADV MTHEMBU Mr May, where were you arrested for this incident in terms whereof you are now applying for amnesty? MR MAY I was arrested in Section D. I have since forgotten the number where they found articles that were in the car, together with the car. ADV MTHEMBU MR MAY Yes, there is something I can add to that regarding articles found in my possession. I remember when Mr De la Rey ordered me to take off my jacket and this husky wallet. I cannot recall but I had R10-00 and some coins. The rest were found but not on my person, they were found in that suitcase bag which was brown, it had a zipper on. The rest belonged to the deceased and they were in this suitcase at D Section where they found the car. ADV MTHEMBU But I see on page 6, paragraph 23, Mr De la Rey goes further and says that at house number 1187 F, the following articles were handed to him by yourself: one bottle of lemon juice, one packet containing a cake mix, one roll of yellow paper, one ice brick. And he goes on to say this was stored in a cupboard in a zinc house on the property. Do you have any comment to make? MR MAY Yes, there is. What I recall is that I took Mr De la Rey to 1187 where I stay so as to get the gun that killed the deceased. We did not recover this firearm like he thought. He took the toilet roll in the house, that is the only thing I can remember. The ice brick that he is referring to is one thing that I can recall in that bag belonging to the deceased. It was not found at home where I stayed, because we went there specifically to look for the firearm. ADV MTHEMBU MR MAY ADV MTHEMBU Now this house number 1663 D, whose house is this? MR MAY The house belong to Mpo. ADV MTHEMBU How is Mpo known to you? MR MAY She was my girlfriend. ADV MTHEMBU But can you still recall during the investigations whether Mr De la Rey did visit this house or not? MR MAY Are you referring to the investigations? ADV MTHEMBU Yes, sir. MR MAY Well, I cannot recall. ADV MTHEMBU What was your answer? MR MAY I do not have knowledge, broad knowledge as to the investigations he did. ADV MTHEMBU (Indistinct) do you ever recall having taken Mr De la Rey to house number 1663 D? MR MAY Mr De la Rey found me at the same house when I was arrested. ADV MTHEMBU And was anything found in your person other than items found in the vehicle which was parked outside this house? MR MAY Yes, there are some articles. It was my lumber jacket and my husky wallet. But all of these things were handed over to me at court. ADV MTHEMBU Sorry Mr Chairman, I am just trying to see - in paragraph 13 Mr May, Mr De la Rey says he found one brown wallet containing R180-00 in cash consisting of three R50-00 notes, one R20-00 note and ... ADV DE JAGER Sorry, paragraph? CHAIRMAN 13. ADV DE JAGER 13? ADV MTHEMBU 13, page 3. JUDGE WILSON ADV MTHEMBU Have I? JUDGE WILSON Yes. ADV MTHEMBU I am sorry Mr Chairman. So purse you are referring to that was found in your person and belonged to you, is that the purse mentioned in paragraph 13.2 "one blue denim husky wallet containing R7-18 in cash"? MR MAY Yes, that is the purse I am referring to which belonged to me, it was found on my person in my pocket. JUDGE WILSON But what about this brown wallet? MR MAY It was inside the bag together with a gold wrist watch and plastic, bank plastic bags with coins. JUDGE WILSON Did you put it in there? MR MAY JUDGE WILSON Did you put the wallet in the bag? MR MAY Yes, I did. JUDGE WILSON: Where was the bag kept? MR MAY The bag was kept in the car, it was a suitcase bag. JUDGE WILSON With all this money, coins, all kept in the car? The car parked with no number plates on it? Is that what you are telling us? MR MAY Yes, that is so. JUDGE WILSON Why was it kept in the car where anybody could break in and steal it? MR MAY JUDGE WILSON MR MAY I never thought of that. JUDGE WILSON You never thought of it, thank you. ADV MTHEMBU Mr May, what else was found in your person? MR MAY Nothing was found on my person. ADV MTHEMBU But now would then Mr De la Rey make a statement to the effect that the articles mentioned in paragraph 13 were handed to him, or he found them in your person? MR MAY I think that is just to strengthen his evidence. I have no knowledge to that effect why he did such a thing. ADV MTHEMBU Was he further strengthening his evidence when he says the items mentioned in paragraph 23 was handed over to him by yourself? MR MAY I cannot recall the articles referred to in paragraph 23. ADV MTHEMBU One bottle lemon juice, cake mix, roll of paper and an ice brick. MR MAY ADV MTHEMBU And these that I mentioned in paragraph 24, the one beige trousers, etc? He says those articles also were handed to him by yourself. MR MAY No, it is not correct. ADV MTHEMBU But now why would Mr De la Rey make this allegation, can you think of any reason? MR MAY Briefly I can say upon my arrest Mr De la Rey found me in a (indistinct) condition, however, that gave him the privilege to take such actions, knowing very well that I could not recall what took place the previous day. JUDGE WILSON These things, paragraph 24, you say they were in a brown case - but this was in the car? Is that what you say, or that is what you said in your evidence a few minutes ago? MR MAY Yes, that is what I am saying. JUDGE WILSON So you left these in the car as well? You never thought of taking them into the house, is that so? MR MAY Yes, that is so. JUDGE WILSON And Mr De la Rey said when he found the car parked behind the house, the doors were not locked and there was nobody in the house. What have you got to say about that? He said the car was not closed and there was nobody at the house. MR MAY I agree with him that the car was not locked. The next thing that there was nobody in the house is not the truth. JUDGE WILSON So you leave all these valuable things outside in an unlocked car? Is that what you want us to believe, things you had stolen for the Party and you left them there in an unlocked motor car? MR MAY I was still around at that time, I was not far from my house. ADV DE JAGER Were you arrested in the house or not? MR MAY I was at the gate together with my friends the time when I was arrested. ADV DE JAGER MR MAY No, that is not so. ADV DE JAGER Did you in fact give the information to De la Rey where you friends are, your co-accused? MR MAY Yes, that is true. ADV DE JAGER And you took him to the respective houses, pointed them out to the police? MR MAY That is true. ADV DE JAGER MR MAY ADV DE JAGER Anything under your bed? MR MAY No sir, nothing. ADV DE JAGER Who was staying at number 1187 F? MR MAY I was staying there. ADV DE JAGER And at 1663 D? MR MAY That is Mpo, who is my girlfriend. ADV DE JAGER MR MAY ADV DE JAGER MR MAY ADV DE JAGER MR MAY No, sir. ADV DE JAGER MR MAY ADV DE JAGER MR MAY I remember only Mr Magoda who was having a camera. ADV DE JAGER And Mr Leeuw did he have anything coming from the farm? MR MAY I was handcuffed under the chairs when Mr Leeuw was arrested, so I was not aware. ADV DE JAGER MR MAY Pardon me? ADV DE JAGER MR MAY It was all in the car. What Mr Leeuw took, he took them maybe when I was not aware that he had other articles with him, but all the articles were in the car because there were three backs in that car. ADV DE JAGER MR MAY No sir. ADV DE JAGER Who took the, who had the pistol? MR MAY That is Mr Leeuw. ADV MTHEMBU Did he keep it with him? MR MAY That is true. ADV DE JAGER Thank you. ADV MTHEMBU Mr May is that your testimony? MR MAY JUDGE WILSON MR MAY That is true sir. JUDGE WILSON And you then took him to house 337, did you? MR MAY Yes, that is true, I beg your pardon, that is true. JUDGE WILSON And he searched there? Accused 2 and 3, he searched there for them? Did that happen? MR MAY JUDGE WILSON Found Nkgwedi and Leeuw? MR MAY That is true, sir. JUDGE WILSON And then you go to house 1864? MR MAY That is true sir. JUDGE WILSON And did you find Magoda there? MR MAY That is where we got Magoda sir. JUDGE WILSON Now all four of you? MR MAY That is true sir. JUDGE WILSON And then did you go to house 496 E? Where you found Elizabeth Ntlana? MR MAY No, that is not true sir. JUDGE WILSON MR MAY No, sir. JUDGE WILSON And did you go to 1766 C? MR MAY No, sir. JUDGE WILSON And then to 1684 K? MR MAY Yes, we did go there sir. JUDGE WILSON Thank you. MS THABET MR MAY Because as I got instructions that we should wait for 24 hours with that car and those articles, because they should be taken within 24 hours, that is why I put them in the car because I thought that time was very short. MS THABET Who told you that the goods were supposed to be collected within 24 hours? And by whom were these goods supposed to be collected? MR MAY I was told by Commander who is Hendrik Leeuw and that it should be taken by a Commander who has given the whole instructions for the operation. They announced me that he will arrive in 24 hours. I was told by Mr Leeuw when we departed. JUDGE WILSON MR MAY No, I was just there, I was not able to go anywhere else. MS THABET MR MAY The truth is that after the operation within 24 hours the Commander would meet Mr Leeuw to get disposed of the articles and the car because it was important articles for the Organisation. JUDGE WILSON Did Mr Leeuw tell you this? MR MAY Yes, he is the one that told me so sir. CHAIRMAN MR MAY CHAIRMAN MR MAY It was an instruction which explained what kind of articles we should take, but in the actual operation we took even things which were not necessary or were not meant for. CHAIRMAN Why then did you take these things which were not necessary and which were not meant for and which were not covered by the orders - if you were acting, or if you are perporting to be acting in terms of an order? MR MAY As we have taken those articles we knew that we will be able to make money out of those articles and those are the articles which we found in that place. CHAIRMAN You must tell me how you wanted to make money out of lemon juice. MR MAY CHAIRMAN Why did you keep them with you and why did you intend to give them to your Commander if they did not fall within the parameters of the orders or instructions? MR MAY The reason was that whatever we have taken we should see that before we can divide among ourselves. He was the one who decided which one to take and which one to leave and what to do with them. JUDGE WILSON So you would divide the rest between yourselves, would you, after he had seen what he wanted, is that what you just said? MR MAY JUDGE WILSON You just said we divide between ourselves? It cam out of your mouth. MR MAY CHAIRMAN MR MAY I do not concur with what you have just read because I was not in close contact with Miss May. CHAIRMAN Are you a relative of hers? I see you are also a May? MR MAY No sir. CHAIRMAN If no demand for money was made, I wonder why she would say this? MR MAY I have no other reason why she would say that because I could not come in close contact with her at that time. CHAIRMAN Thank you. ADV DE JAGER If you did not say it, were you present when any of your co-accused demanded money? MR MAY No sir. ADV DE JAGER MR MAY I think so and I believe so. ADV DE JAGER In the house - did you enter the house too with the other applicants? MR MAY We entered the house one at a time. ADV DE JAGER Were you present when she was taken to the bedroom and ordered to open the safe? MR MAY I was not present. ADV DE JAGER Who opened the safe? MR MAY I do not know who opened the safe. ADV DE JAGER Did you see whether anything was taken from the safe? MR MAY It was only when these things taken from the safe was shown to me that I could look at them. ADV DE JAGER Now, you tried to take all the valuable things, is that correct in the house? MR MAY Yes, that is so. ADV DE JAGER And according to the evidence you would have sold these valuables in order to get money? MR MAY These articles would be sold where we would not be present as people who committed this act. Our orders were to take these articles and exchange them for cash. ADV DE JAGER But you never asked Mrs May to hand over cash, to hand over money to you? MR MAY No, we did not. ADV DE JAGER MR MAY That would not have been easy. ADV DE JAGER MR MAY It would not be easy because we were not told to get money from that place. JUDGE WILSON Are you seriously suggesting that you would rather steal watches that have got names on, which you would have to try to explain than to take money? MR MAY There was no money in that house and we also believed that we would not go into that house and ask for money or rather look for money. ADV DE JAGER ADV DE JAGER Was it found in the car? MR MAY Yes, that is correct. ADV DE JAGER How did it land in the car? MR MAY I put it in the car. ADV DE JAGER Where did you find it to put it in the car? MR MAY I found it from the deceased. ADV DE JAGER And the Krugerrands, where did you find that? MR MAY I think they were found from the safe, from within the safe. ADV DE JAGER And they were all found in the car? Where was your husky wallet found? Your denim husky wallet, was it also in the car or on your person? MR MAY It was found in the pocket of my trousers that I was wearing. ADV DE JAGER MR MAY No, sir. ADV DE JAGER And the watch? MR MAY It was not on me. ADV DE JAGER Thank you. CHAIRMAN Any more questions? ADV MTHEMBU No, Mr Chairman, thank you. CHAIRMAN Thank you, you can go. ADV MTHEMBU Mr Chairman, Ii will call Mr Nkgwedi. S NKGWEDI (sworn states) ADV MTHEMBU Mr Nkgwedi, is it correct that you were arrested at house number 337, which is the house of Mr Leeuw? MR NKGWEDI I will request you to repeat the question. ADV MTHEMBU I said is it correct that you were arrested at house number 337, which is the house belonging to Mr Leeuw? MR NKGWEDI That is the truth. ADV MTHEMBU And is it further correct that at that time you were staying with Mr Leeuw? MR NKGWEDI Yes, that is so. ADV MTHEMBU MR NKGWEDI What I know is that I was arrested alone and there was nothing whatsoever that was found in my possession. The articles you are referring to, I know nothing of, this is the first time I hear of such articles. ADV MTHEMBU MR NKGWEDI I say myself, Nkgwedi, I was arrested alone. This is a new thing to me that a pair of brown shoes was found in my possession. I was arrested alone, without any articles. ADV MTHEMBU MR NKGWEDI When this White thugs arrived they found me sleeping. They woke me up kicking at me and pointing a gun at me when they arrested me, this thugs. ADV MTHEMBU Mr De la Rey says that that white pillow and those brown shoes were found in a bedroom. Was it perhaps not the bedroom that you said they found you sleeping in when you were arrested? MR NKGWEDI They found me in the lounge because as Africans you will find that we live to a number of thousand in a shack. They found me in the lounge because our houses are very small. They are referred to as small houses. ADV MTHEMBU But then why would this De la Rey allege that he found this white pillow and this brown shoes in a bedroom and in fact that you handed over these two articles to him, taking into cognisance that more articles were stolen other than this pillow and just a pair of brown shoes? MR NKGWEDI I have already explained that I was arrested alone in that house, the rest are just fabrications by this White thug who is a policeman. What I know is that I was arrested alone. This is just a part on him to strengthen his case or get a promotion or a better rank, we know that white Boers have a legislation that they created like this White thugs of the TRC that you followed orders that you shoot that kaffir, they had a system of promoting themselves through the ranks and they were referred to as policemen. This was the system that the Boers used to promote themselves through the ranks. ADV DE JAGER Is it possible that there could be a misunderstanding in the interpretation, when he says he was arrested alone. As I understood it he was arrested with ... ADV MTHEMBU Accused number - Mr Leeuw. ADV DE JAGER ADV MTHEMBU I would assume so sir. That as he said I was, as a person, but he felt any articles, having found in my possession or in the vicinity wherein I had been sleeping or arrested. ADV DE JAGER I see. Could you kindly clear that up. Was he arrested with somebody or was he arrested alone as a single person? ADV MTHEMBU Mr Nkgwedi, you said you were arrested alone. Now do you mean you were arrested alone without any items or articles in your possession or were you arrested with someone else, could you please clarify that point for the Committee? MR NKGWEDI JUDGE WILSON Was anybody else arrested in the house at the same time? In house 337? MR NKGWEDI At that time I will repeat this, I was asleep in the lounge. Leeuw slept in his bedroom because our houses are very small, we could not sleep in that one bedroom all of us. When these thugs arrested me, they took me to the car alone and Leeuw followed, being cuffed to the car. JUDGE WILSON Did you say Leeuw followed? ADV MTHEMBU MR NKGWEDI Yes, that is so. ADV MTHEMBU Mr Nkgwedi, do you have anything more to say or is that your testimony? MR NKGWEDI I do not believe this is all I have to say. There are others that I want to say, however, some of them I cannot say. All this mess was done on us by these Boers. I want us to take me on this matter. In 1652 on the 6th of April when you arrived here, did you come here with your wives? On the 6th of April when you arrived in Azania did you have wives of your own, please answer me in honesty. I will pick the one who will respond, Judge Wilson, you are supposed to speak the truth. JUDGE WILSON I am not here to answer questions from you, if you have no further representations to make to the Committee as regards your application for amnesty, you can go back to your seat. Has he any further, do you wish to ask him any questions? MS THABET No questions. MR NKGWEDI ADV MTHEMBU Mr Nkgwedi, if you have nothing more to add regarding your submission today, please say so and you must give the Members and evidence leader a chance to ask you questions on your evidence. Thank you. ADV DE JAGER Mr Nkgwedi, did you kill Mr Fourie because he was a White thug? MR NKGWEDI Well, you said so, I have never said so. It is you who stated that statement, but you (indistinct) in the question. I have never said such a thing. ADV DE JAGER MR NKGWEDI ADV DE JAGER MR NKGWEDI JUDGE WILSON No, I do not think that that happens, with any regularity. There have undoubtedly been incidents of violence in prisons, but if there were I would expect you to have told your lawyer, he could have brought it to the attention of people to investigate, not for you to have tried to make a public performance out of such tragic incidents. If you have information that prisoners were killed, were put into a boiler, I have no doubt whatsoever that the Advocate appearing for you, will take the utmost steps to ensure that it is properly investigated. And I think that you should, if you have any interest in that, any real bona fide interest in those people, you would do that, rather than put on the performance you are doing now. MR NKGWEDI Now you are making conclusions that I am making a public performance here. I am not playing here, you are thinking that Nkgwedi is playing. JUDGE WILSON Have you l looked at your colleagues and seen what they are doing? MR NKGWEDI I am not a colleague, I am not referring here to the colleagues, I am Nkgwedi. When you talk to me you must know that I am Nkgwedi. Never refer to my colleagues, talk to me personally, I am an APLA soldier, you must never forget that. ADV MTHEMBU MR NKGWEDI ADV MTHEMBU What are the other prisons that you mentioned? Grootvlei and which prison? You mentioned Grootvlei? MR NKGWEDI MS THABET Mr Chairman, can I say something? I am not sure what is the relevance of what the applicant is saying to his application and can I ask a question? Mr Nkgwedi, why did you apply for amnesty? MR NKGWEDI Are you referring to my application for amnesty? Would you repeat your question please? MS THABET Why did you apply for amnesty? MR NKGWEDI MS THABET Mr Nkgwedi. ADV MTHEMBU Mr Nkgwedi, with due respect sir, what you are saying now has no relevance on your application sir. We still have Mr Magoda who is to testify as well. MR NKGWEDI All right. ADV MTHEMBU If you have nothing more to say which is relevant to your application, sir, I would ask Mr Chairman to excuse you, if there are no questions. CHAIRMAN You may be excused. ADV MTHEMBU Thank you Mr Chairman. Mr Chairman, I will call Mr Magoda. CHAIRMAN Before you call Mr Magoda. Mr Nkgwedi, I, if you an just listen to what I am about to tell you now, the interpretation will come through. If there are other things which are worrying to you, with regard to the maltreatment of people in prison or in any way that you feel there had been some gross violations of human rights by whoever, you can let us know and tell us whether you will be keen to make statements so that we should arrange that members of the Truth and Reconciliation Commission can come and visit you in prison, consult with you, take down all those complaints and then investigate them properly. Do you want us to do that? MR NKGWEDI You have pleased me by saying that. I am relieved now, I will do so. I will expect you. CHAIRMAN All right, we will try to make that kind of arrangements, thank you. ADV MTHEMBU I thank you. JUDGE WILSON Is there someone here from the prison? Is there someone here from the prison? Do these, what time do you have to return these prisoners. "Daar is geen tyd"? T MAGODA (sworn states) ADV MTHEMBU Mr Magoda, is it true that you were arrested at house number 1684 K Section? MR MAGODA No, I was not arrested in Section K, I was arrested at block M. ADV MTHEMBU MR MAGODA ADV MTHEMBU Now do you have anything to say about the one tin of mussels and one tin of oysters? MR MAGODA With regards to this tin of mussels, I cannot comment that I have any knowledge of such articles. I know of these things that I have told you about. I know about the yellow plastic that was - and the two plastic that contained the coins which were in the lounge. Others that he says that were groceries, I know nothing of because I am not a person who usually scouts around for groceries in the house. ADV MTHEMBU Mr Magoda, I want to know from you if the cans of oysters and mussels, were they found in one of your kitchen racks or not? MR MAGODA ADV MTHEMBU The grey pair of tackies with blood on them, do you know those tackies. Mr Magoda, can you explain the tackies first? MR MAGODA Those belonged to me, the overall and the running shoes, which were stained with blood. ADV MTHEMBU And the white glove that was found in one of the back pockets of the overall? MR MAGODA Yes, they were mine, I used them. ADV MTHEMBU Mr Magoda, do you have anything further to add to your submission? MR MAGODA Briefly I would say the police at that time as I, we hear from the statement, they are supposed to say, tell such things, they worked in close harmony with the previous regime which oppressed us. They were in trouble through their acts they committed, that is as far as I would go. ADV MTHEMBU Now, why were these yellow plastic bag, why did Mr Leeuw give it to you and the two bank plastic bags containing those coins? MR MAGODA ADV MTHEMBU Is that your evidence sir? I am saying is that your evidence or your submission? MR MAGODA Yes, that is as far as I would go. ADV MTHEMBU Thank you Mr Chairman. MS THABET No questions Mr Chairman. ADV DE JAGER MR MAGODA ADV DE JAGER MR MAGODA He did not explain whether he would come and collect these articles to sell them or do whatever with them. As a Commander he knew what he was supposed to say to me and what not to say to me. ADV DE JAGER When you took these articles - for what purpose did you take it? MR MAGODA I kept them as that was the order. ADV DE JAGER What was your motive in killing Mr Fourie, partaking in the killing of Mr Fourie? MR MAGODA At that time we were involved in the struggle, fighting for our land. It was not because I hated Mr Fourie, it was a time of war. ADV DE JAGER But what was your political motive, what do you want to achieve by killing Mr Fourie? MR MAGODA The objective was to get the land that was taken from us by the Boers, they removed us from fertile areas like the farms, they took this land from us where they started farming. Furthermore we could not continue with our farming activities since we were removed from those farms. ADV DE JAGER So is it correct then that you wanted to scare the people or to chase them away from the farm so that you could reoccupy the farms? MR MAGODA According to the statement that we have already put, as there was a call to establish the great storm from Commander (indistinct). ADV DE JAGER Yes, what was the great storm, what did he actually tell you, what was the operation great storm, what was he trying to achieve? MR MAGODA It was intended to get the land to its rightful owners, the Africans. ADV DE JAGER And on going there, am I then correct it was a war to get back the land? MR MAGODA Yes, that is correct. ADV DE JAGER MR MAGODA We wanted to get their firearms ... (tape ends) ... or other arms and ammunitions. ADV DE JAGER So you had two objectives actually, to get weapons and to get the land? Or did you only have one objective, what was the position? MR MAGODA The weapons were meant to be used when we fought for the African land. ADV DE JAGER Why did you take his car? MR MAGODA ADV DE JAGER MR MAGODA ADV DE JAGER And the watches? MR MAGODA We just took at random articles that could generate money for us so that we could continue with the struggle. ADV DE JAGER And who was responsible for selling the articles? Would you sell it yourself, those that were with you or why did you divide the articles between you? MR MAGODA ADV DE JAGER And would you hand over all the articles to the Commander? MR MAGODA Yes, that is correct. CHAIRMAN Could you be sure that the applicants are here by 09h30? Thank you. COMMISSION ADJOURNS