amntrans AMNESTY HEARINGS 1997-05-16 BLOEMFONTEIN 5 W O THOABALA 3998/96 https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=54609&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/bloem/bloem2_thoabala.htm ON RESUMPTION JUDGE WILSON The witness has been duly sworn. W O THOABALA (Duly sworn, states). ADV TSHONGWENI With your permission, M'Lord, I would like to bring to the attention of the Committee that in terms of the application by the applicant, page 2, this is for the purposes of the record, M'Lord, paragraph 9(a)(I), which was the same problem with ... JUDGE WILSON But I thought we had already dealt with that, and we agreed that the same amendment would be made to both applications. ADV TSHONGWENI As it pleases your Lordship. EXAMINATION BY ADV TSHONGWENI Please state your full name and surname, please? MR THOABALA (Speaker's mike is not on). ADV TSHONGWENI How old are you? MR THOABALA I am 34 years old. ADV TSHONGWENI Where were you born? MR THOABALA I was born in Tamhahole, Parys. ADV TSHONGWENI How long did you live there? MR THOABALA I was born there, I stayed there until I was arrested. ADV TSHONGWENI What schools did you attend and up to what standard? MR THOABALA I went to Lumbethe Primary School, that is where I started and I went to Mmabatho and I did Std 5. ADV TSHONGWENI At that stage were you a member of any political organisation? MR THOABALA I was a member of Tamahole Student Organisation. ADV TSHONGWENI Any other organisations that you belonged to thereafter? MR THOABALA In 1983 I joined the UDF, United Democratic Front and Release Mandela Campaign until I left the country and joined the RMC. ADV TSHONGWENI What is RMC? MR THOABALA RMC, Release Mandela Campaign. I joined RMC and UDF in 1983 and I was arrested and released and then in 1986 I left the country to Zimbabwe for a crash course. I came back in the same year. When I came back I stayed in Sebokeng. I stayed in Sebokeng, East Rand and Vosloorus, and I went back to Tamahole. Just some time in Tamahole a comrade of mine was killed and I went to Johannesburg. In 1988 I skipped the country for Lusaka. From Lusaka I went to Uganda for a course at Dr Nkabinde Training Centre and I was deployed to the camp as a tailor and in 1991 I left the camp, I went to town in Kampala where I went to study for a personnel management certificate, which lasted six months, and I asked amnesty to be allowed to come to the country. In 1992, on the 22nd of April I was given amnesty and I was repatriated and I came back to the country. On my arrival here, that is when I arrived at Jan Smuts Airport, I met one of the comrades I left behind in this country, and I asked him about Benjamin Cholota, that is Benjie. I asked him whether he was still around, and he told me yes, he was working around Johannesburg, and he gave me his telephone numbers and while at the airport I called him. I couldn't find him but I left the message. ADV TSHONGWENI With your permission, Mr Chairman, I beg to submit part of the document which is a list of ANC members who were repatriated at that time. ADV DE JAGER Yes, it is not disputed. ADV TSHONGWENI Thank you, Mr Commissioner. Mr Thoabala, you can continue. Yes? MR THOABALA I called Benjamin Cholota at the attorneys' offices. He was not present and I left a message to let him know that I have arrived. And I left for my home. I stayed a week and I received a call from Benjamin to come down to Johannesburg. I went to Benjamin on a Wednesday and we sat and we talked. He told me about this self-defence unit that was formed around Tamahole. And we discussed and we realised - as we were discussing, we said as the youth needed arms, so we had to go out and disarm the enemy, and we made an arrangement to meet on Friday. On Thursday I went back to Tamahole. Friday came. At about six o'clock in the afternoon, Benjamin Cholota arrived at home and I went to see him. He was washing himself and he sent someone to buy a drink so that while he is busy washing himself, I should drink something. After that we went to Mr Skosana's house and we sat down. We discussed with some of the comrades. It was a welcome party for myself, because I was from exile. I didn't stay long with them to enjoy the party, because we had a mission to disarm the enemy. They stopped me. They said please do not go. The other members of the defence unit were at the forefront, because the people who were with us didn't want us to leave. We said they should leave, we will follow, we will follow after. Then we escaped from the comrades to join the rest of the group. The first place we went to was at Leratong, it is a tavern. We found comrades there and they told us they had been inside already and they didn't find anybody. We left and we went to BJ, that is Black Joint. It is a tavern also, belonging to Sister Mosake. When I entered the tavern I met the people I left in the country when I went to exile. They were happy. They were asking me how it was and I explained to them. At that moment there was a time where I talked to the owner of the tavern and she called her daughter to come and talk to me. She showed me Benjamin, and I left the comrades and I went to Benjamin. I asked Benjamin what was happening. Instead of answering me, he left for the door, and Phule Alusi approached and Benjie grabbed him and I pulled him back. We fell on the ground. I stood up very quickly and I kicked him and I searched him and I realised he was not armed, and we went outside the tavern on the stoep. I gripped him and he fell. I took stones, I wanted to hit him with stones. One of these girls working at the tavern, Sono, stopped me. As she stopped me he escaped and he ran away and I chased him with other comrades. Then we went back. We couldn't catch him. When we got back to the yard, there were many fights going on and a person shouted at me, he said here's the other one, and when I went to see, it was a girl Lesi, and she was fighting with another comrade Benjamin, when I arrived at the scene Benjamin was hitting the deceased with a stone on the chest and I said let us go because our mission is not successful, it is better to leave. That is when we left and we went to Mamma Moloi's place and she washed Benjie's blood and she stopped the blood that was - she stopped the bleeding, and they didn't allow us to leave because they thought we were going to continue fighting. At about 09:10 in the morning we left. I had to pass Benjamin Cholota's place. His father was standing at the gate and he called us and we went to him, and he asked us what did we do, because the police were looking for us. What I said to him, was we fought and he said no, you should know the police were here looking for you, they were looking for you for murder, you have shot a person. And we were surprised how we shot a person because we didn't have a firearm in our possession, and we didn't even have any knobkierie in our possession, and I was surprised that the police were looking for us for murder. Benjamin's father said you should stay and wait for the police. We stayed there until one o'clock waiting for the police but they didn't come. We decided to leave and see one of our comrades. From his place we were actually going to the deceased's family to discuss the incident that took place the previous day and the police approached, they produced their guns and they said hands-up and they arrested me. They asked me where Benjamin was. I pointed Benjamin and they arrested him too. ADV TSHONGWENI Did you at any stage receive instructions from anyone, that is to go and search people in the shebeen? MR THOABALA It is true, the commander of the defence unit, Benjamin Cholota gave an instruction. ADV TSHONGWENI No further questions, Mr Chairperson. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY ADV TSHONGWENI JUDGE WILSON Questions? CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS THABETHA What were your intentions of going to taverns with the comrades? MR THOABALA The main reason to go to taverns as comrades, we were searching our enemy at taverns. There was no other place to search enemy, only at taverns. MS THABETHA What did you intend to do with your enemies when you found them? MR THOABALA Our intention was to assault them, as they were assaulting the comrades and the community. MS THABETHA Maybe I didn't hear you well, but can you explain to the Committee what your role was in the attack of the deceased, and whether the deceased was actually attacked inside or outside the tavern? MR THOABALA I do not know what happened inside the tavern. Benjamin Cholota knows it, because he was inside. I was outside. That is shortly the answer. MS THABETHA So am I hearing you to be saying that you did not take part in the attack of the deceased, which occurred inside the tavern? MR THOABALA I did not take part in the attack. When I came back from chasing Phule Moalosi, they were outside, they were not fighting inside the tavern, they were at the gate. MS THABETHA Did you know whether the deceased belonged to any gang? MR THOABALA I heard later that he belonged to the Noxie gang. I heard this from the commander of the defence unit. JUDGE WILSON Is that Mr Cholota? MR THOABALA That's correct. MS THABETHA One more question. Were you at any stage inside the tavern in this whole incident that occurred? MR THOABALA I had never been in the tavern. I was outside. Benjamin Cholota got me just when I was outside. When I went to him he was already outside the tavern. I had never been inside the tavern. JUDGE WILSON Sorry, I am a little confused. I thought you told at the beginning of your evidence, you went to the BJ Tavern and that when you entered the tavern you met people you knew and they were happy to see you? MR THOABALA That is correct, I said when I went into the yard, that is where I met people who knew me. That was outside the tavern, but inside the yard. JUDGE WILSON The yard. And is that where you met the owner and her daughter? MR THOABALA That is where I met the owner and she told me that she is going to call the daughter. But I didn't see the daughter, I saw the owner of the tavern. JUDGE WILSON And who took you to Benjamin? MR THOABALA She showed me Benjamin and I went to Benjamin. I wanted to ask him what was happening. JUDGE WILSON And you said he left, he didn't speak to you, he left for the door? MR THOABALA As I was talking to him he left. JUDGE WILSON Benjamin who was this? MR THOABALA Benjamin is a fellow comrade. ADV DE JAGER Is that the man who gave evidence this morning, the first applicant? MR THOABALA That's correct. JUDGE WILSON Where did you meet him, where did the owner show you Benjamin when he left for the door? MR THOABALA Benjamin was coming out of the door, I was at the garage with the owner, and when Benjamin got out, she showed me Benjamin and I went to him. JUDGE WILSON And then what happened? MR THOABALA I went to Benjamin, I wanted to ask him what was happening. Instead of answering, he went to the door and as I was asking what was happening, William Moalosi approached and we dragged him, he fell on the ground and I kicked him. I searched him, I couldn't find anything and I dragged him towards the gate, and I picked up some stones to hit him with. And Sono Kale, a girl working at the tavern intervened and he escaped. He ran away. I chased him. I couldn't get hold of him. I went back. JUDGE WILSON So this all took place outside? MR THOABALA This took place outside the tavern. JUDGE WILSON But now we heard from Mr Moalosi this morning, as I understand, when his evidence was led by your lawyer, that he was, as he was leaving the tavern with his friends, Cholota asked if he could search him and they then had a fight and he managed to escape out of the main door. You heard him say that this morning? MR THOABALA I heard him. JUDGE WILSON But that is not true, you say? MR THOABALA Benjamin got hold of William Moalosi at the door, not inside. He asked to search him at the door, not inside the tavern. Because Phule indicated that he was going out, going home. That is where he met him. JUDGE WILSON But he said he was dragged out. That didn't happen, he was outside the whole time, you say? MR THOABALA I dragged him outside and he fell on the ground. He was at the door. JUDGE WILSON Why did you do this? There you were with people who were pleased to see you, they were happy to see you at the tavern, why did you suddenly grab this person? MR THOABALA The people were happy to see me and on the other hand, their happiness meant nothing because they were assaulted. I wanted to remove first this harassment before I could be happy with them. JUDGE WILSON Yes, but why did you grab hold of Moalosi? MR THOABALA Because he was a policeman. JUDGE WILSON A policeman? MR THOABALA Yes, a policeman. JUDGE WILSON Are you sure? MR THOABALA I am sure. JUDGE WILSON Because he told us he served in the prison services. MR THOABALA Even though he was working for the prison services, he was part of the people harassing the comrades. We took him as part of the enemy, not part of the community, because of the nature of his work. JUDGE WILSON You said a minute ago he was a policeman, not that he was one of those harassing the community. You said you attacked him because he was a policeman. MR THOABALA I still maintain he was a policeman, it is true, and the policemen were harassing the community. JUDGE WILSON But you have just agreed he was a prison warder. That's not a policeman. Please ... MR THOABALA According to me a policeman and a prison warder are the same because they did the same duties. He also had a gun and I realised that he had a gun and the main thing I wanted from him was his firearm. JUDGE WILSON How did you realise he had a gun? MR THOABALA I spent a week in Tamahole, I had seen him before in possession of a gun. JUDGE WILSON In the week before? MR THOABALA That was a week before. JUDGE WILSON Because he told us he didn't carry his gun around, as I understood him. MR THOABALA I think I heard him well, but there were times when he would be in possession of his gun, I saw him. JUDGE WILSON And for that reason you assaulted him. MR THOABALA I assaulted him. JUDGE WILSON Yes, and you chased him. MR THOABALA Yes, I chased him, he ran away. I couldn't catch him. JUDGE WILSON Why were you chasing him? MR THOABALA I wanted to hold him a bit and punish him so that he could be in the side of the people. JUDGE WILSON You wanted to assault him. MR THOABALA I wanted to assault him, to put him on the right road. JUDGE WILSON Have you assaulted other people to put them on the right road? MR THOABALA Yes. JUDGE WILSON Thank you. ADV DE JAGER Was it the policy of the ANC to assault people and threaten them in order to put them on the right road? MR THOABALA It wasn't the police of the ANC, but if you were against the ANC, we tried by all means to show you that what you are doing is wrong, everybody had the right. But if we saw you was being against us, we would show you that we would be against you, in any way. ADV DE JAGER So every opponent of the ANC could be assaulted, according to you, to show them the right road? MR THOABALA Not necessarily assaulting them. We would take a person, sit down with him, talk with him, but if he was pig-headed, we would take decisions on our own as comrades. ADV DE JAGER So if they wouldn't agree to vote for the ANC or to support the ANC, you would assault them? MR THOABALA We wouldn't mind for him to support ANC, but we were against him being against the ANC. ADV DE JAGER So all the opponents of the ANC could be assaulted? Is that what you are saying? If they are against the ANC they could be assaulted? MR THOABALA The people who were against the ANC were the police, we had that belief and we had that right to assault him. Those who were against us. ADV DE JAGER But there were many people not being police that were against the ANC, not supporters of the ANC. MR THOABALA If he was not a policeman, he was not a member of the ANC, not supporting the ANC, he was a vigilante. If he is not either a comrade or a police, we would fight against him on the basis that he is a vigilante. We want that kind of a person, a person who doesn't belong to the any party, we didn't have a problem with, but to come against us, we come against you. ADV DE JAGER So you wouldn't attack neutral people? MR THOABALA We never attacked a neutral person, instead we would defend them. ADV DE JAGER No you have searched Moalosi, when you had him on the ground and you realised he had no weapon with him. Is that correct? MR THOABALA That's correct, yes. ADV DE JAGER But you didn't stop then, you attacked him and assaulted him. MR THOABALA I assaulted him because he himself was our enemy. This was not the first person. Some of the comrades attacked him before. I knew that whether we like it or not, he was on the list. ADV DE JAGER Ja, he was attacked before, so that's so. He testified to that effect too. MR THOABALA That's correct. ADV DE JAGER But was he active, doing anything against the ANC? MR THOABALA We called stayaways and he would not take part. Instead of staying away he would go to work. That is why at the end of the day he was attacked by the comrades. In other words ... (intervention). ADV DE JAGER Did you attack any people working for the government at that stage? MR THOABALA I will talk about Moalosi. ADV DE JAGER No, I am asking you would you attack any person working for the government at that stage? MR THOABALA We were not attacking everybody, we were attacking people who were on our list as comrades. ADV DE JAGER Who put them on the list? MR THOABALA My commander knows. The commander of the defence unit. JUDGE WILSON Mr Cholota? MR THOABALA Yes. JUDGE WILSON He knows or did he put them on the list? MR THOABALA I am not talking of a written list. This is a list in our minds, we knew who to attack. ADV TSHONGWENI No further questions. JUDGE WILSON Have you any further witnesses you intend calling? ADV TSHONGWENI No further witnesses from my side, Mr Chairperson. JUDGE WILSON Have you had a chance of talking to the victims? MS THABETHA I have had a chance of consulting with the victims and one of the victims who is present here today is Jane Plaatjies, the sister to the deceased who had been there at the scene and she would like to say something. JANE NONSHABA PLAATJIES (Duly sworn, states). EXAMINATION BY MS THABETHA Jane, you speak Xhosa and you speak Sotho. What language are you going to be speaking? MS PLAATJIES I will speak in Sotho. JUDGE WILSON Could you put the whole of her name on record. MS THABETHA Can you please tell us your name, your full name. MS PLAATJIES Jane Nonshaba Plaatjies. MS THABETHA Where do you live, Jane? MS PLAATJIES Parys. MS THABETHA Whereabouts in Parys? MS PLAATJIES At Tamahole. MS THABETHA Is it correct to say that you are a sister to the deceased, Mr Plaatjies? MS PLAATJIES You are correct. MS THABETHA Where did Mr Plaatjies work? MS PLAATJIES He was working in Sharpeville. MS THABETHA Was your brother a member of any gang, did you have any knowledge of your brother belonging to any gang? MS PLAATJIES He had never been a member of any gang. He wasn't affiliated to any party. MS THABETHA What did your brother do? What kind of work was he doing? MS PLAATJIES He was a mechanic. MS THABETHA Was your brother ever convicted or charged or were there any rumours to the effect that he killed Phapi Qukwa? MS PLAATJIES No, he had never been convicted and the person whom it was rumoured that he killed, was his brother-in-law. He would never do such a thing and he had never been convicted. MS THABETHA What do you mean Peter Qukwa was your brother-in-law? MS PLAATJIES Sorry? MS THABETHA What do you mean that Peter Qukwa was Mr Plaatjies' brother-in-law? MS PLAATJIES Hubert Qukwa was the husband to my sister, he was supposed to marry her in December, and this incident happened before the marriage, and the woman he was supposed to marry was in matric. They were very close. MS THABETHA So am I hearing you to be saying that the wife to Mr Kqukwa is your sister, who is also a sister to Mr Plaatjies, the deceased? MS PLAATJIES Yes, my sister was supposed to be married by Qukwa, now John Plaatjies was his brother-in-law. My sister is here today, she can come here to give evidence. My brother had never been accused of killing any person. MS THABETHA Did you ever find out who was charged with killing Phapi? MS PLAATJIES Yes, it appeared that Noxies group killed him and they were arrested. MS THABETHA Okay. I am taking you now to the incident when your brother was killed. Can you tell us what happened? MS PLAATJIES We went to that place with my brother and my cousin and a visitor to our neighbours, and ourselves, Benjie Mkonsi and Sidiso came in. He was jiving on the stage and they took him with, and there was no indication of any fight that would erupt. And after a few minutes people came in and they said your brother is assaulted outside, and I went outside. I was also hit with bricks and I fell, and I just fell next to him. After a few minutes I stood up and because earlier on I fainted, and when I regained consciousness my brother was lying there unconscious and I ran into the house to go and ask for help. People were already outside and I came back to the scene, and I was trying to raise my brother, because he was cold. Phule took a gun and he shot him. He shot - that is Moalosi. MS THABETHA Okay. I just want us to go a bit, a step back. You say two people came into the tavern? Is that correct? MS PLAATJIES Three. It was Benjie, Sidiso - Sidiso is the brother to Benjie, and Mkonsi. They were three. MS THABETHA Do you know why your brother was assaulted outside? MS PLAATJIES I do not know. They left the tavern with no indication of a fight that would erupt. I do not believe he did something wrong to them. He was a quiet person and he was not around parties at all times. I don't believe there was anything to fight for. JUDGE WILSON Before you go on could I just - you said the three people came in; Benjie - is that Benjamin Cholota who gave evidence here today? MS PLAATJIES Yes, that's him. JUDGE WILSON And Mkuso? MS PLAATJIES Yes. JUDGE WILSON Is that Mr Thoabala who also gave evidence today? MS PLAATJIES Yes, that's him. JUDGE WILSON Thank you. MS THABETHA When they went inside did they - did you overheard what they said to your brother? MS PLAATJIES I didn't hear anything. MS THABETHA You just saw them going outside? MS PLAATJIES Yes. MS THABETHA Thank you, no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS THABETHA ADV DE JAGER Who was the person dancing on the stage? MS PLAATJIES My brother, he was a jiver, he was next to me. JUDGE WILSON Any questions? CROSS-EXAMINATION BY ADV TSHONGWENI Thank you, Mr Chairman. Ms Plaatjies, you say Mr Plaatjies was your brother. Is that correct? MS PLAATJIES Yes, that's correct. ADV TSHONGWENI How close are you to your brother? MS PLAATJIES What do you mean by close, Sir? ADV TSHONGWENI I mean your relationship with your brother. Were you close to him, did he confide other things to you? MS PLAATJIES Yes, he was my brother and I knew everything about him. ADV TSHONGWENI You knew everything about him, you say? MS PLAATJIES Yes. ADV TSHONGWENI How long did Mr Plaatjies work in Sharpeville? You say he was working in Sharpeville. How long did he work in Sharpeville, for how long did he work there? MS PLAATJIES Four years. JUDGE WILSON Four years? MS PLAATJIES Yes. ADV TSHONGWENI Other than the four years you have just testified to, where did he work? Before the four years or after the four years? MS PLAATJIES He went to work at Sasolburg and he worked at Letabo. ADV TSHONGWENI These areas were outside Tamahole, Parys, is that correct? MS PLAATJIES Yes, that is correct, they are outside Parys. ADV TSHONGWENI Did he commute daily to and fro the workplace? MS PLAATJIES No, he stayed where he worked. ADV TSHONGWENI He stayed where he worked. Good. JUDGE NGOEPE Does that include Sharpeville as well? When he worked in Sharpeville, did he stay there or did he commute from home? MS PLAATJIES He stayed there. He stayed where he worked in Sharpeville. I was in Sebokeng, schooling in Sebokeng. We were visiting Parys just for a long weekend when this incident took place. JUDGE NGOEPE Did you stay with him when he was working in Sharpeville? MS PLAATJIES Sharpeville and Sebokeng are very close and we saw each other daily and I was staying at the deceased's home. Because I was schooling in Sebokeng. JUDGE NGOEPE No, that is not clear to me. Did you stay with the deceased during the time when he worked in Sharpeville and while you were attending school in Sebokeng? MS PLAATJIES I used to visit him. At times I would just spend a night there. JUDGE NGOEPE I see. Thank you. ADV TSHONGWENI Ms Plaatjies, could you correct me in this regard. You said he worked in Sharpeville, that is for four years, Sasolburg and what is the other place? MS PLAATJIES Letabo. ADV TSHONGWENI Letabo. In all these places you were staying with him? MS PLAATJIES No, I started staying with him when I was schooling in Sebokeng. But I have told you we were very close for this four years that I have mentioned. ADV TSHONGWENI No, I didn't ask you whether you were close at that time, but anyway. You only stayed with him, only in Sharpeville, when he was working in Sharpeville. Is that correct? MS PLAATJIES While he was working at other places he was staying there and in Sharpeville he was staying there and we were close to each other. ADV TSHONGWENI Ms Plaatjies, is it correct to say that other than Sharpeville, you do not know what your brother was doing, because you were not visiting him regularly as in Sharpeville? MS PLAATJIES During the weekends he came home and we would see him. ADV TSHONGWENI I don't think you understand my question, Ms Plaatjies. I say other than Sharpeville, did you know what your brother was doing? JUDGE WILSON I don't understand the question either. Do you mean did she know what work he was doing, where he was employed? Or do you mean what he was doing outside working hours? ADV TSHONGWENI I mean outside working hours, M'Lord. Thank you, I am indebted to you, M'Lord. MS PLAATJIES He was a soccer player. That is what I know. ADV TSHONGWENI Are you telling this Committee that you only know that he was only playing soccer. You don't know other things that he was doing outside work? MS PLAATJIES There was nothing he could do. ADV TSHONGWENI Ms Plaatjies, let me take you to the scene at the tavern. How old were you then? MS PLAATJIES I was 21 years old. ADV TSHONGWENI Why did you visit the tavern? MS PLAATJIES We were going to enjoy ourselves. ADV TSHONGWENI How did you enjoy yourselves? MS PLAATJIES It was painful after this incident. ADV TSHONGWENI I am not sure if you understood my question. How did you enjoy yourselves in the tavern? You went there with the purpose of enjoying yourselves. In which form or manner did you enjoy yourselves? MS PLAATJIES It was nice, but these people came in and the whole incident turned sour. JUDGE WILSON I don't think you still understand the question. As I understand it, he wants to know what did you do in the tavern? Did you sing, did you dance, did you drink? What happened? We have not been to that tavern. ADV TSHONGWENI Thank you, M'Lord. MS PLAATJIES We were drinking. ADV TSHONGWENI What type of drinks were you drinking, you, in particular? MS PLAATJIES I was just drinking cooldrink. ADV TSHONGWENI You never took any alcoholic beverage? MS PLAATJIES Nothing. ADV TSHONGWENI In your evidence in chief you said you were inside when your brother was taken out by Mr Cholota, is that correct? MS PLAATJIES We were all inside and they took him with. We were together. He was jiving next to me, inside the tavern. ADV TSHONGWENI You didn't hear or see what happened outside? MS PLAATJIES No, I was called by people that my brother is lying outside. ADV TSHONGWENI You didn't see or hear what was happening outside, yes or no? MS PLAATJIES I saw when I went outside. ADV TSHONGWENI What happened outside, Ms Plaatjies, you didn't see or hear. Is that correct? JUDGE WILSON What happened outside before you went outside - she has just told us that she saw what happened when she went outside. You can't then put the question to her that she didn't see what happened. Unless you confine it to a specific period. ADV TSHONGWENI Thank you, M'Lord. I was confining it to the period when she was inside the tavern. MS PLAATJIES When I was in the tavern I couldn't hear anything, because the music was playing. I last saw them going out. It would be impossible to see what is happening outside while you are inside. ADV TSHONGWENI Thank you, Mr Chairman, no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY ADV TSHONGWENI ADV DE JAGER And when you went outside, what did you see? And what did they do to you? MS PLAATJIES They were throwing him with bricks and when I went out I was also thrown with bricks. ADV DE JAGER Was your ... (intervention). JUDGE WILSON What was he doing? MS PLAATJIES He didn't have any chance to do anything. They were many, he was alone. JUDGE WILSON Was he standing up, lying down, what was he doing? MS PLAATJIES I lost - he was standing, but we ended up on the ground, the two of us. I lost consciousness. After I regained it he was still lying there. ADV DE JAGER Did they say anything to you before they assaulted you? MS PLAATJIES They didn't say anything. ADV DE JAGER Did you know the applicants before the incident? Benjamin and William, Mr Thoabala? MS PLAATJIES I knew Thoabala because of the actions he was doing in Parys. He was raping the girls. I knew him because of his activities. ADV DE JAGER Were you acquainted or did you hear of the gangs in Parys? MS PLAATJIES Yes, I heard of this gang. ADV DE JAGER Was there only one gang or several gangs in Parys? MS PLAATJIES There was one gang, it was just one gang. ADV DE JAGER What was the name of this gang? MS PLAATJIES It was called Noxie Gang. ADV DE JAGER And the Noxie gang, what did they do? MS PLAATJIES It was formed as the ANC and they were arrested, Noxie was among them. And the police convinced them, because we realised this when Qukwa was already dead, that some of the police negotiated with the arrested people, because they would not be given food for about three days, and the police convinced them that if you agree to go out and kill the ANC leader, then we will give you food and we will give you a special attention. Noxie and them agreed to that. Now when they were arrested those who gave this - who revealed this, were those who did not agree to what the police was saying. Noxie and them were then released, and they killed Qukwa and those people arrested with him. ADV DE JAGER Was your brother also arrested? MS PLAATJIES He was not arrested, because he was not even around. We went to fetch him after his brother-in-law died. He then came down. He was not at home all along. And he had never been looked by the police at any stage. And this name Peter Qukwa is not the real name, he was Lilibet Skosana Qukwa. His wife is present here. She can come and testify, if necessary. ADV DE JAGER So your brother wasn't ever arrested with Noxie and he wasn't - was he friends with those people that associated with Noxie? MS PLAATJIES My brother had never been arrested in his life and he doesn't know Noxie at all. He was not even present when this incident, when this thing took place. ADV DE JAGER Where was he working at the time when he died; was he working at Sharpeville or where was he working at that stage? MS PLAATJIES He was working at Sharpeville. ADV DE JAGER And you told us that he was working at Sharpeville for four years. MS PLAATJIES Yes. ADV DE JAGER Was that the four years immediately before his death? MS PLAATJIES Are you referring to the four years he worked at Sharpeville? ADV DE JAGER Yes. MS PLAATJIES Yes. ADV DE JAGER Was he married? MS PLAATJIES He was not yet married. ADV DE JAGER Did he have children? MS PLAATJIES No. ADV DE JAGER Was he caring for somebody, did he look after family members or what was his position, was he totally independent? MS PLAATJIES He was the breadwinner because all of us were at school and my mother has been ill since this incident. She was prepared to come today but she couldn't because every time we talk about this incident, old wounds open up. ADV DE JAGER Your father, is he still living? MS PLAATJIES Yes. ADV DE JAGER Who was caring for your mother? Your father? Was he working and caring for your mother? MS PLAATJIES My father lost his job, he is now old. Johannes was looking after us all. ADV DE JAGER Do you know whether any TRC official visited your mother and took a statement from her? MS PLAATJIES Yes. ADV DE JAGER Did they take a statement from her? MS PLAATJIES Yes, they did take a statement from her. ADV DE JAGER Thank you. JUDGE WILSON Do you know what work your brother was doing in Sharpeville, who he was working for? MS PLAATJIES Yes, I know who he was working for. He was repairing cars, he was a mechanic. JUDGE WILSON Yes, but who for? MS PLAATJIES It was his own company, owned by himself and my cousin. JUDGE NGOEPE Earlier than today, any time in the past, did you ever come across this rumour that your brother had killed Qukwa? MS PLAATJIES I heard this the first time today. JUDGE NGOEPE All you heard was that Qukwa had been killed by members of the Noxie gang? MS PLAATJIES Yes, because it appeared even in the newspapers and people were arrested. JUDGE NGOEPE Thank you. JUDGE WILSON Did Qukwa and your sister have any children? MS PLAATJIES Yes, they had a child, the child is present in this hall. JUDGE WILSON So he was accepted as a member of the family, was he? MS PLAATJIES Yes. JUDGE WILSON Thank you. MS THABETHA No further questions. NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MS THABETHA MS THABETHA Thank you, Chair. Mr Chair, can I suggest that TRC R & R take a statement from her and take it further? JUDGE WILSON I think that would be important (indistinct -microphone not switched on). Are you going to call any other relations or ... MS THABETHA No, Mr Chair. ADV DE JAGER Could it be interpreted to the people, whether there is any other of the other, one of the relations, for instance the sister, who want to testify - are the victims present? MS THABETHA No, Mr Chairman. JUDGE WILSON Does that conclude all the evidence that is wished to be put before us? MS THABETHA Yes, Chairperson. JUDGE WILSON Well, are you ready to address us? ADV TSHONGWENI That is correct, Mr Chairman. ADV TSHONGWENI ADDRESSES COMMITTEE ON MERITS OF CASE Thank you, Mr Chairman. With your permission I would like to give a brief address on behalf of applicant No 2, that is Simon Moalosi. May it please the Chairman and members of the Committee. We have just heard evidence by the applicant which its nature is that No 1, he was a member of the Correctional Services which was then called Prison Services. In terms of Section 1 of the Promotion of National Unity and Reconciliation Act, security forces is defined as including members of the Department of Correctional Services. So I will argue that he fits the category of the definition of the Act. He committed a gross violation of human rights, that is killing as defined in the Act, and he has adduced evidence to that effect. The applicant also believed that the ANC supporters were his enemy. He also adduced evidence to this effect that during one of the stayaways, which was called by supporters of the UDF or African National Congress, he did not heed the stayaway call. As a result he was assaulted by ANC supporters, who viewed him as an enemy. The applicant's act, I would argue, that it is associated with a political objective because it was clear that at that time in Parys, Tamahole township, the ANC supporters were hostile towards him, because they viewed him as the enemy. In fact, the act was committed in the course of the conflict between the ANC supporters and those who did not support the ANC. One would appreciate the fact that one, if you are a member of the community at Tamahole, you were either regarded as a comrade or an enemy. Unfortunately for the applicant he fell on the side of the enemy. As a result of this conflict. Although he committed the offence without an order or an instruction as required by the Act, it was clear that if he did not defend himself at that time against his political rivals or opponents, he would have been seriously injured or killed. He didn't know what would happen the following day because there was this tag hanging on him, that he was an enemy. In conclusion, Mr Chairman, I have briefly stated that the situation in Tamahole at that time was that one would be either on the side of the comrades or the security forces, as defined in the Act. The applicant has so identified himself as an enemy, because he never heeded to the calls of UDF supporters or ANC members. With your permission, Mr Chairman, I would like to narrate an extract from the ANC's statement, which was submitted to the Truth and Reconciliation Commission. JUDGE WILSON The first one? ADV TSHONGWENI The first one. I will be grateful if I could give you other copies. I do have a copy. And then I will make reference to that. JUDGE WILSON Is that the book? ADV TSHONGWENI This is the statement which was submitted on the 22nd of August. I do have copies, Mr Chairman. JUDGE WILSON So have I. ADV TSHONGWENI I do have copies, Mr Chairman. JUDGE WILSON So have I. I think I have just sent my secretary to fetch my copy, but I don't have the other ... ADV TSHONGWENI I do have enough copies, Mr Chairman. JUDGE WILSON We will make them available in a moment. ADV TSHONGWENI Mr Chairman, as you would see the yellow or gold copies are the latest which have been submitted on the 12th of May, this year by the ANC. JUDGE WILSON Can we keep these copies? ADV TSHONGWENI You can keep them, Mr Chairman. Mr Chairman, if I can take you to the first statement, which is headed "Statement to the Truth and Reconciliation Commission", a black and white copy. On page 64, first column, paragraph 3, which starts with an extract. On page 64, the left column. JUDGE WILSON Yes? ADV TSHONGWENI: The paragraph which begins with the words "An extract from the ANC's discussion document entitled broad guidelines and organs of people's power". The ANC submitted that it made a call to the communities to defend themselves and take initiatives, where necessary in order to defend themselves. If I may read the code therefrom, which reads: "The forms of armed action and self-defence activity varied. The march revolutionary violence of the people, units to protect leaders of people's committees and democratic organisations. A system of patrolling the streets and warning signals, units to harass enemy patrols, attacks on enemy encampments, alienation of agents ..." And which is relevant to this matter, is - "... procurement of weapons." This was also confirmed in the latest submission where questions were put to ANC leaders as to their role and connection with the SDUs. They confirmed this position, but they admitted that in other instances things went wrong, because these structures were manned by members of the communities themselves. They were not controlled by the headquarters of the ANC. So one would appreciate that in all this conflicts of the past, one would appreciate that number one, there was a conflict of the past. Secondly, when addressing the conflict of the past by either party, something would go wrong, as it has been accused by all the applicants. In short, Mr Chairman, I wanted to highlight that in respect of applicant Nos 1 and 3, they responded to a call made by the ANC, that communities should defend themselves. As to the nitty-gritty and the rules of how one should conduct such operations, it was left to the communities. That is why we are here today, listening to people giving their experiences of the conflict of the past. In regard to applicant No 2, a question was asked to him, whether he still regards applicant 1 and 2 as enemies, and he answered no, because of the changes which took place in South Africa and he thought that the spirit of reconciliation should prevail. Thank you, Mr Chairman. JUDGE WILSON Do you wish to say anything? MS THABETHA I wish to say something. Can you give me one second to complete my sentence. JUDGE WILSON While you are doing that, can I ask something that has nothing to do with this application. When did these become available, these new submissions? ADV TSHONGWENI A limited number of copies were submitted at Cape Town TRC offices there. JUDGE WILSON So they have got them there. ADV TSHONGWENI They are - yes, they do have some of the copies, but it is a limited number. As far as my recollection can take me, only limited numbers were given to the Presiding Commissioners at that time. JUDGE WILSON Do you know if the other submissions are also available, the other parties? ADV TSHONGWENI The National Party submission is available, and today, I want to believe the Freedom Front is making a submission. JUDGE WILSON And the PAC? ADV TSHONGWENI No idea whether they are making a submission or not. JUDGE WILSON Thank you. MS THABETHA ADDRESSES COMMITTEE ON MERITS OF CASE Without repeating what my learned friend has said, I would be brief to say that concerning the matter of Moalosi, I think the big question is, was the murder of Mr Plaatjies associated with a political objective. According to the evidence that the applicant has furnished to us today, it appears that even though he ended up shooting the wrong man, he had aimed at an MK member, who had assaulted him before, for reasons that he was an opponent or that he was an enemy. Concerning the applicant, Mr Cholota and Mr Thoabala. From their evidence it appears that they acted, they assaulted Mr Plaatjies, in furtherance of the ANC as an organisation, and as my learned friend has read the ANC policy, I have no objections to that. I mean, it is an ANC, it is the organisation which has today stated its policy. However, I think the question as well is, was Mr Plaatjies the enemy; was he one of the people who acted against the ANC. Unfortunately we have no evidence to the contrary, to the effect that Mr Plaatjies was not a gang member. We have heard the evidence of the sister, but as she gave her evidence, it became apparent that she can't say with certainty whether what the activities of Mr Plaatjies were. JUDGE WILSON I think her evidence is just as reliable as the evidence that he was a gang member. MS THABETHA That's what I wanted to say, that I think at the end of the day we have got two contradicting evidence, in the sense that the applicant says he was a member, the sister says he wasn't a member. JUDGE WILSON On the evidence we have heard, isn't it overwhelmingly improbable that he would have been any party to the murder that was committed by this gang, that he would have been totally opposed to a member of his family having been killed or a potential member of his family? MS THABETHA I was referring to him being a member of the Noxie gang, not necessarily that the activity of the death of Mr Qukwa who was murdered by the gang. It appears as if as Mr Cholota and Mr Thoabala were acting as members of the ANC and the act was committed in reaction, according to their evidence, the act was committed in reaction to a political conflict, if I may put it like that. In my opinion I have no objections to whatever the Committee decides. I have no objections to them granting amnesty. JUDGE WILSON There is one point I would like to ask you about, which I unfortunately neglected to put to the applicant when he gave his evidence, and this relates to the applicant Moalosi. If you look at his application, the annexure to his application at page 29 of the papers, under the third paragraph, he says "I was under the strong influence of liquor that night". That, his evidence was that they had gone to the tavern to enjoy themselves and that this happened when they were leaving, which I think supports the conclusion that he probably was - are you prepared to accept that he was under the influence? MS THABETHA Yes, I do. JUDGE WILSON Thank you. Anything in reply? ADV TSHONGWENI Thank you, Mr Chairman. I have nothing to reply. ADV DE JAGER I think perhaps one should point out that Mr Moalosi also said "I wanted to stop them from attacking people who did not support them. I wanted to stop them from forcing their will on people who didn't agree with them". Wouldn't that also point to a political objective? ADV TSHONGWENI That is correct, Mr Commissioner. As I have stated there in my address, I said that you were either on the side of the comrades or of the enemy at that time. ADV DE JAGER And enemy or a friend. ADV TSHONGWENI An enemy or a friend, unfortunately, and that is what the Commission has to address. Thanks, Mr Chairman. JUDGE WILSON I think he went a little further even, didn't he? He said he also wanted to protect or stop them attacking people, particularly those working for the government, who had not done them any harm. So it was a very much political, that you support one side or the other, wasn't it? ADV TSHONGWENI That is correct, Mr Chairman. JUDGE WILSON We will adjourn this matter and give our decision in due course. And have you got good news for us now? MS THABETHA That concludes the hearing for the week. JUDGE WILSON Well, before we adjourn, I would like to thank all those who have assisted us in the hearings here. I refer particularly to those responsible for the interpretation, the recording and for the arrangements in the hall and outside the hall. We have been very well looked after. Once we managed to get hearings going, things operated very smoothly and I would like to thank the police, the people responsible for this building and everyone else who has assisted us. Thank you all. We will now adjourn. COMMITTEE ADJOURNS