amntrans AMNESTY HEARINGS 1997-08-28 BLOEMFONTEIN 5 LEOBANE JOHN MAY, V W MXHOSANA 0180/96 ; 0118/96 https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=54611&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/bloem/bloem3_may.htm ON RESUMPTION AT 13H45 MR MPSHE Mr Chairman the next matter is that of Velile Mxhosana, application no. 0118/96 and Leboane J May, 0180/96. Mr Chairman both applicants are here. Just to put on record Mr Chairman inasfar as the victim is concerned Mr Chairman, a police constable Mr Makaloi I was in contact with my colleague in Cape Town, Ms Thabile Thabeta who forwarded to me a copy of the notice served on the victim and the fact that she had telephoned his station and he was told that he was on his way, which thing I also did and I was told that he was on his way. During lunch time, no before lunch time I had requested one of the policeman in this hearing to check if he has arrived but he had not arrived and the policeman took it upon himself to phone the police station and the report he gave me is that they told him that they would look for him to tell him to come. During lunch time, just after talking to members of the Committee in chambers the said policeman came back to me and said that he has phoned again to check from the person he spoke to before and it's now that he got another explanation that this person has left for Bloemfontein but he comes from Aliwal North. CHAIRPERSON When was the notice served on him? MR MPSHE Mr Chairman it is dated the 8th of August, I got a faxed copy this morning. It was actually faxed to him - to 05512315. CHAIRPERSON And when you phoned this morning, or attempted to phone, where was that, to phone where? MR MPSHE I phoned the Bloemfontein Police Station as I thought he was in the Bloemfontein Police Station. CHAIRPERSON And he was from Aliwal North? MR MPSHE He was from Aliwal North as per information, my informer is sitting right behind me now, who spoke to the police. My information is that he spoke to a Sgt Theron who is manning the radio control that contacts all police stations, Sgt Theron. CHAIRPERSON Is that how he learnt that this man is on his way? MR MPSHE That is so Mr Chairman. ADV SANDI The notice to the victim does it not say what time the proceedings will start? MR MPSHE It has been blurred but normally our notices state 9 a.m, yes it is clear 9 a.m. CHAIRPERSON Very well you may proceed Mr Mpshe. MR MPSHE Thank you. MR MTHEMBU That is correct Mr Chairman I will call Mr Leboane John May. LEBOANE JOHN MAY (sworn states) EXAMINATION BY MR MTHEMBU Mr May is it correct that during the commission of this offence that you are now applying for amnesty you were a member of the PAC as well as its military wing, Apla? MR MAY Yes that is correct. MR MTHEMBU When did you become a member of the PAC? MR MAY I became a member of the PAC while it was still banned in 1985. MR MTHEMBU And is it further correct that you were charged with the following offences, attempted murder, malicious damage to property, illegal possession of machine guns, illegal possession of handgrenades and also illegal possession of machine guns and ammunition? And that on the 4th of March 1993 you were convicted and sentenced for these offences to an effective term of 11 years imprisonment? MR MAY Yes that is correct. MR MTHEMBU Now Mr May would you tell the Committee as to where did you receive the orders to participate in these acts? MR MAY Do you mean a person or a place? MR MTHEMBU Who gave you orders to participate in these acts? MR MAY I got orders from my commander Velile Mxhosana. MR MTHEMBU And what was the nature of the orders that you received from Velile Mxhosana? MR MAY I received an order to go and attack the security forces, the police. CHAIRPERSON Where? MR MAY I got an order to go and attack in Mbatu Police Station, here in Bloemfontein. CHAIRPERSON When did you get the order? MR MAY I got this order on the 14th of December 1991. ADV SANDI How was the order given to you? Did he come to speak to you face-to-face? Did he phone you? How did you get the order? MR MAY He came to me and he spoke to me face-to-face. ADV SANDI Was anyone in his company whilst he was talking to you? MR MAY There was one man by the name of Ray who was with him. CHAIRPERSON Carry on. MR MTHEMBU Is it further no correct that you were a member of an Apla unit that was under the command of Mr Mxhosana at the time? MR MAY Yes that is correct. MR MTHEMBU Now will you proceed to tell the Committee about your participation in the acts that you are now applying for amnesty. MR MAY What I can tell the Committee is that I do agree that I was one of the people who were there on this attack on the 14th of December 1991. My participation is that we went to this place, this police station, briefly we had handgrenades and petrol bombs. What happened is that we got to that police station, that is we got near the police station and it was dark, we stood near the police station. It was sunset and we got an order to attack and Mxhosana threw the handgrenade and I followed, I threw a petrol bomb. After that we left because we could see that there was some disturbance there. The petrol bomb which I threw did not go to the right place. CHAIRPERSON It did not go what? The petrol bomb did not go to where? MR MAY I lit the petrol bomb. After that I threw it. It didn't explode but it was - it landed on the right spot but did not explode, then that made us to leave. MS KHAMPEPE What spot are you referring to Mr May? MR MAY I am talking about Mbatu Police Station as it was called. MR MTHEMBU Who had supplied you with the handgrenades and the petrol bombs? MR MAY I found them at the place where we met as the unit, I mean those petrol bombs and those handgrenades. They came from my commander, the leader Mxhosana. CHAIRPERSON Where is this place that you met at? MR MAY There is a location called Pahameng at Vultures. MR MTHEMBU Is Vultures a name of a place or the name of a person? MR MAY Vultures is a person. MR MTHEMBU Mr May do you know if anyone or any policeman was injured or killed during this attack? MR MAY After we have been arrested and went through the court cases it appeared in court, we heard in court that there was a person who was injured who is a policeman who was working at that place in that evening. I am not sure as to whether I am wrong, his name is Makaloi, that is the person I heard about that he was injured because it was said that the grenade, when it exploded, he was hit by the shrapnel from the handgrenade when it exploded. MR MTHEMBU And do you know the nature and extent of the injuries that he sustained? MR MAY I don't remember well as I have explained in the beginning that the shrapnel from the grenade hit him when it exploded so that is the explanation we got in court when evidence was led. What I don't remember well as to whether which part of the body he was hit by this shrapnel, but he was injured by the shrapnel when the handgrenade exploded. MR MTHEMBU Mr May will you tell the Committee what was the reason for this attack? MR MAY Shortly I would say at that time it was the time of war and we were continuing with the armed struggle. At that time the members of the security forces were regarded as targets because we regarded that they were used by the government of that time. Those are the people who were the pillars, if I may use that word, of the government of that day. We regarded them as people who give the previous government power, who sustained the existence of that government that the oppression should continue. That is why we regarded them as targets. MR MTHEMBU What did you and your unit intend to achieve by this attack? MR MAY I would say, as it was a sacrifice for the struggle, was to have liberation for which we were fighting and then we saw that as a problem in our way as Africans that any obstacle should be removed so that we will be able to be liberated. What we wanted to achieve was liberation. MR MTHEMBU Mr May is there any other thing that you wish to add to your testimony or is that your case? MR MAY For now I would say that is my testimony, except maybe if there are questions. MR MTHEMBU Thank you Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON How many handgrenades did your companion have? MR MAY I don't remember well how many handgrenades were there at that time. CHAIRPERSON And how many petrol bombs did you have? MR MAY I had only one petrol bomb with me at that time and one handgrenade. CHAIRPERSON So in addition to a petrol bomb you had a handgrenade? MR MAY That is true, Sir. CHAIRPERSON Did you throw your handgrenade? MR MAY As I explained I didn't throw my handgrenade, I only threw a petrol bomb. CHAIRPERSON And how many of you were together when this attack was launched? MR MAY If I remember well we were quite a number because in our unit we were two and then there were other units who took part in another police station to the one we were attacking, there was another unit again which took part in the attack in town. I think we were six all-in-all. CHAIRPERSON Who supplied the handgrenade? MR MAY I did mention that the handgrenades I was given by my commander who is Velile Mxhosana. CHAIRPERSON Yes thank you. Mr Mpshe are there any questions? NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MPSHE MS KHAMPEPE Mr May in your application if you can just turn to page 11 of your application, at paragraph 10B you have made reference to people like Sebs Pama, Themba Ngaphayo and Tshokolo Gilbert and Lefu, who were these people? Were they members of your unit? MR MAY Yes that's true, those were members of the unit. MS KHAMPEPE A person like Sebs Pama would that not be Sebilo Pama? MR MAY Yes Sebilo Pama was the chief of staff of Apla at that time. He was not a member of that unit but he was the chief of staff of Apla. MS KHAMPEPE Themba Ngaphayo? MR MAY He was one of the members of the high command of Apla. MS KHAMPEPE Now who were members of your unit? Can you give us names of people who were in your unit? MR MAY As I explained that in my unit we were two, that was myself and Mxhosana. And then again there were other people like Lefu who were present. MS KHAMPEPE Was Lefu present when you were given instructions to go and launch an attack on - at Mbatu Police Station? MR MAY What I remember is that we met as units. He was in another unit which was supposed to attack another police station. I found my orders from my commander but he was again in another unit. MS KHAMPEPE Thank you. CHAIRPERSON If he was in another unit he wasn't with you at the time when you threw this petrol bomb? MR MAY He was not present at that time. MS KHAMPEPE At page 12 at paragraph 11B you state that Lefu was the director of operations. MR MAY What I tried to explain is shortly, is that the unit which, our unit consisted of two people in our unit as we were two, Mxhosana was the commander of that cell in the attack. Lefu was a member of another unit which is local again. It seems they were one thing, him and Mxhosana I didn't know as to whether who was senior between the two, but it seems Mxhosana used to contact him time and again. MS KHAMPEPE So you got your orders from Mxhosana? MR MAY That is true. MS KHAMPEPE Thank you. ADV SANDI You heard that the victim of this attack, that policeman whose name you mentioned was meant to be here as well, or he intended to be here as well, is there anything you are going to say to him if he was here? MR MAY Briefly what I would say to him if he was here is about my understanding of the situation we are now today is quite different from the situation which we were at that time of this incident. If we were in that situation I couldn't have regretted. You understood the situation which we were and we were living in and we were engaging in a war at that time and then we understood that that war was legal to him as he was a person I would ask forgiveness mainly because he's an African I would try - or maybe he's aware that he was serving what kind of a system at that time I was intending to ask forgiveness from him as a person because I was not attacking him as a person. I didn't know him as Makoloi at that time as I explained that we were trying to dismantle the system, as he knew that's what kind of a system he worked for. CHAIRPERSON Are there any questions you wish to ask arising out of the questions? NO FURTHER EXAMINATION BY MR MTHEMBU CHAIRPERSON Yes Mr May, thank you very much. You may stand down. WITNESS EXCUSED MR MTHEMBU Mr Chairman I will call Mr Mxhosana as the next witness. VELILE MXHOSANA (sworn states) EXAMINATION BY MR MTHEMBU Mr Mxhosana is it correct that you are one of the applicants in this matter? MR MXHOSANA I do not understand your question Sir. MR MTHEMBU Is it correct that you are one of the applicants in this matter? MR MXHOSANA Yes it is so. MR MTHEMBU Is it further correct that during the commission of these acts you were a member of the PAC and Apla and that you were in fact a commander of the unit that committed these acts? MR MXHOSANA That is true. MR MTHEMBU When did you become a member of the PAC and Apla? MR MXHOSANA I joined the PAC in 1988. I joined Apla in 1989. MR MTHEMBU Is it further correct that on the 14th of December you received certain orders from Apla's high command? MR MXHOSANA That is true Sir. MR MTHEMBU What was the nature of these orders, and where and by whom were they given to you? MR MXHOSANA I found my instructions from the - directly from the high command. The instruction was to attack the police. MR MTHEMBU Was any reason given to you why you had to attack the police? MR MXHOSANA Yes it was explained why we were at training that is (...indistinct). We were shown that the police are the support systems of the oppressive government because the police and soldiers were people who are supposed to be targeted for attacks. MR MTHEMBU But was any reason given why they would be targeted for attacks? MR MXHOSANA I would explain in this way that as we have a big military system and as we have the units, our unit was specifically given that order to attack the police. MS KHAMPEPE Mr Mthembu from his evidence it would appear that the police were identified by Apla's high command as a target. MR MTHEMBU Now Mr Mxhosana is it further correct that on the 4th of March 1993 you were convicted and sentenced for the following offences; attempted murder; malicious damage to property; illegal possession of machine guns - two charges in fact for that offence, and also the illegal possession of handgrenades, and you were sentenced to an effective sentence of 11 years imprisonment. MR MXHOSANA That is true. MR MTHEMBU And it is further true that you were involved in the launch of this attack, in the planning to launch this attack? MR MXHOSANA That is true. MR MTHEMBU Now can you briefly tell the Committee about this planning of this attack. MR MXHOSANA As I was the person who received the instructions directly from the high command we met on the 14th of December, we met at Vulture's place, we were six in number. It was myself, it was Lefu, it was Ri, it was Voyo and Derek and Vulture is the owner of the house. Themba was in the house but didn't take part in the meeting. When we were discussing we came to the decision that this attack should not be directed to only one police station, we should go to various police stations, because if we attack one otherwise we would give them a chance to come and respond to the attack, so that the police would not be able to respond to the attack. MS KHAMPEPE Mr Mxhosana would you please slow down because we are taking down notes and the translators must also be able to translate that which you are saying in seSotho into English. MR MXHOSANA Okay. I want to find out as to how far you were in my testimony. MS KHAMPEPE For my sake I think you can start by, start afresh from what the discussion was all about, that not one police station should be attacked, that's where my notes end. MR MXHOSANA Okay. What I tried to explain is that we sat down, then we agreed amongst ourselves that it would be stupid to attack only one police station and leave other police stations which were near the targeted police station. In agreement we decided that we should divide ourselves. Others would attack a certain police station A, others police station B, it will depend on the number of us. We came to the decision, our agreement, that we should divide ourselves and then we started with - because we were five we had to divide ourselves into two's, and then in my unit I was a commander in the second unit. Vuyu was the commander, the third unit the commander was Themba. Then from there ammunitions were taken out which we needed to use. MS KHAMPEPE Mr Mxhosana we still can't keep up with your speed. If you have slowed down won't you please slow down even further. CHAIRPERSON You say ammunitions were taken out, taken out from where? MR MXHOSANA There were arms or ammunitions which came with Themba Ngaphayo. CHAIRPERSON Yes do carry on. MR MXHOSANA I would try to explain what kind of arms or ammunitions we had then. We had two AK-47's. We had one machine Scorpion, we had three M-26 ...(intervention) MS KHAMPEPE I think the translator didn't get - you mentioned one of the weapons which were about four. You mentioned something after the two Scorpions which the translator was able to translate to us. MR MXHOSANA Four Chinistic grenades, four Chinistic grenades. After that I talked about three M-26, then one M-75. Then we had three petrol bombs. Those are the arms we had. When we divided these arms to various units we divided them equally. The first unit of which I was in we took the M-26, three of them, together with one M-75 and two petrol bombs. The second unit they took two Chinistic handgrenades, one AK-47 with two magazines and one petrol bomb. The third unit they took one Scorpion with two magazines, they took one AK-47 with two magazines and two Chinistic grenades. That's how we divided those arms. The unit in which I was which was supposed to attack Mbatu Location took three M-26 and one M-75 and two petrol bombs. After that we came to discuss about time because we couldn't just do those things whilst we were many and do them at different times. We had to agree on the time which we need to attack. Then we agreed that it should be at 11 o'clock, that is where all these attacks would be done. That is to say these attacks would take place at the respective places. The first one was Municipal, the Park Road Police Station in town, those were the places which needed to be attacked. We did go to our own operation as planned because we agreed that I would be the commander of this unit. On the other side Vuyu would be the commander and he would be accompanied by Ri, then the other one would be the commander of Derek. We went to the police station and when we arrived there we took our positions as planned as we had our explosives. They have a certain limited distance. Where we were standing and the distance between us and the door to the charge office and the walls of the barracks would be approximately 25 metres to 30 metres. That is where we were standing as to the police station. CHAIRPERSON Was that 25 metres from the door of the police station? MR MXHOSANA The distance where they should hit from that place roughly I would say it's the distance of 25 metres to 30 metres. The time we agreed on arrived. At that time then as we were conducting these operations with two watches the police stations which were in the townships were using one watch, the police station which was in town they were using only one watch. It happened that the unit which had this watch were in a certain police station and they were supposed to come and inform us about that the time has arrived, but at 11 o'clock they had to make one gunshot from the AK-47. By hearing that signal I gave the instruction that we should attack. MS KHAMPEPE You heard a shot from a gun and that was to signal to you that it's 11 o'clock? MR MXHOSANA In terms of the agreements there was one watch, then we were supposed to be signalled by a gunshot that would tell us that the time is now ripe for the attack. So I heard that gunshot, immediately thereafter I gave an instruction that this is the time to attack. To be a leader at times it is - I don't know how people understand that, at times you are supposed to die first then I started with what I had to hit the police station. My co-accused took a petrol bomb then threw it. When he threw the petrol bomb I thought he used the handgrenade for me not to hear anything happening thereafter I returned, because even if there's a defect, if that explosive doesn't hit you should examine it because it will be a danger to you and to those you are with, and for me not to hear the sound I gave an instruction that we should leave there because that place is no more safe. Then we left the police station and then we went to the safe house. When we arrived at the safe house we entered the building. We were all together, nobody was left behind and no one was injured. We agreed that we need to disperse because there is nothing we can do so far. We have managed to do what we intend to do. Those who were still in that area they will be the suspects, especially for those who do not understand the language in that area because there were so many incidents that has occurred like shooting, hand explosives, during those time it was not usual. So I thought the people will go in that incident are the people who do not understand the language and the way of life to those people. We agreed that everybody must go in such a way we arranged that we must disperse and the following day we just dispersed and I remained with the first co-accuser, so everybody went away. On the 19th I was arrested while I was sitting doing nothing. It was on the 19th of December 1991. CHAIRPERSON Where were you arrested? MR MXHOSANA I was still at home resting in my bedroom. CHAIRPERSON What happened to the three M-26 and the one M-75 that you took with you? MR MXHOSANA Okay. Concerning the M-26, if I do remember well I threw them away on my way when we retreated, and the M-75 was still in the house but I didn't manage to go back to fetch them. But all the people who were in the house I told them that there were two M-26 and even where they have been thrown. CHAIRPERSON Yes, anything else you want to ask? Where were you arrested, at your house? MR MXHOSANA I was at home where I stayed with my parents. CHAIRPERSON And your companion? MR MXHOSANA I didn't know exactly but according to the information I received he was arrested on the very same day. CHAIRPERSON Any questions Mr Mpshe? NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MPSHE MS KHAMPEPE Was Mr May also from Bloemfontein? MR MXHOSANA Yes. CHAIRPERSON And were these firearms, the three M-26 and one M-75 were they found at your house when you were arrested? MR MXHOSANA No, they have managed to get them where we have thrown them. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. WITNESS EXCUSED CHAIRPERSON Any further witnesses? MR MTHEMBU No Mr Chairman, thank you. CHAIRPERSON Can we enquire Mr Mpshe whether the victim has arrived? MR MPSHE I will check Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON You are not calling any witnesses? MR MPSHE No Mr Chairman, thank you. Mr Mpshe calls - Ephraim Makoloi, Ephraim Makoloi! CHAIRPERSON He is not here. MR MPSHE Apparently Mr Chairman he isn't here. CHAIRPERSON If you go to the application forms, the second applicant received a sentence of 19 years of which eight were to run concurrently, judging from paragraph 12, sub paragraph G, page 6. And the first applicant, page 13, received 19 years, can that be correct? MR MPSHE Mr Chairman if I may clarify you, it is indeed so that they both received 19 years imprisonment, but eight years on some of the charges were to run concurrently, so effective that both to serve 11 years. And then I believe they received either a reduction in their sentences by way of parole and they were released I think some time early this year. MS KHAMPEPE Were they both released? MR MTHEMBU They were both released. CHAIRPERSON In fact they were ..(recording cuts out) MR MTHEMBU That is correct Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON The Committee will make known its decision in due course and notify you accordingly. MR MTHEMBU Thank you Mr Chairman. MR MPSHE Mr Chairman if the Chair allows me just to put some information on record for the convenience of the Chair inasfar as the decision is concerned Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON Please do. MR MPSHE I will not read, I will just refer the Committee to what I perceive to be important. CHAIRPERSON Yes, please do. MR MPSHE I will refer, Mr Chair and the Committee members, to a transcript of the record, page 123 pagination, page 123 line 18 to line 20 Mr Chairman. Just briefly that is where a witness was concerned, a police officer, Mr J J Diedericksen who informed the Court that according to his opinion that this offence was politically motivated. And then I will move again with the Committee, still on the record, page 131 lines 18 up till the end of that page, overlapping onto page 132, lines 1 - 4. To sum up what is said there Mr Chairman and members of the Committee, it is the judgment by the Court and the Court came out very clearly that this was a politically motivated offence and the accused then were Apla members and they acted under the instruction of the organisation. Then I refer Mr Chairman and members of the Committee to the bundle which is the application, page 32 to page 34, that is the letter from the office of the Attorney General endorsing what has been said by the magistrate to the pages I've referred members of the Committee. That is all. Thank you. CHAIRPERSON That is very helpful Mr Mpshe. Thank you very much. MR MPSHE Mr Chairman then it is the end of the roll for the week. CHAIRPERSON The Committee will now adjourn. Thank you very much gentlemen. COMMITTEE ADJOURNS