amntrans AMNESTY HEARING 1991-09-08 BLOEMFONTEIN 1 & DAY 2 - 3rd WEEK MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI 4031/96 https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=54614&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/bloem/bloem4_motsami1.htm MR STANDER CHAIRPERSON I think everybody agreed that, that would be the most convenient method of dealing with the evidence I think. MR BRINK Might I ask Mr Chairman ...[inaudible] CHAIRPERSON Perhaps if Mr Visser moved down the table a bit now. MR VISSER CHAIRPERSON Is he present? Is Mr Disco Mothege here now? MR BRINK Mr Chairman, I can possibly arrange to see the gentleman during the lunch adjournment. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Right, shall we continue. Is that Mr Disco Mothege coming in now? Mr Mothege, is there anything you wish to say to the Committee? MR MOTHEGE Yes, there is something that I need to - that I want to tell the Committee. CHAIRPERSON Do you want to give evidence or do you want to tell us something? MR MOTHEGE I just want to clear my name and the names of the - and the names of those mentioned by Ngo. CHAIRPERSON What do you want to do, do you want to give evidence? MR MOTHEGE ADV DE JAGER CHAIRPERSON I think Mr Brink, if you could consult with him - if you will when we adjourn ...[intervention] INTERPRETER When we adjourn, if you will consult with Mr Brink - do you see Mr Brink sitting there - and discuss the position with him. MR MOTHEGE I understand. CHAIRPERSON Shall we now proceed? MR MEMANI "The Murder in Melk Street". CHAIRPERSON He has. MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI (sworn states) EXAMINATION BY MR MEMANI: Mr Motsamai, can you tell the Committee about your application as it is stated in the papers before you, 146 - page 146 onwards? MR MOTSAMAI Yes, I can tell the Committee but before, I want to MR MEMANI I think that will be in order. MR MOTSAMAI Now, when there were people that we were to collect after having receiving commands from our officers, we would get files of these people that we were about to arrest or collect, then we would be told that these people must be collected or arrested in the morning. Again, if there were people that were supposed to be collected and brought to the office or maybe we had to target certain houses, we would get their files and we would be given a command. MR MEMANI Now Mr Ngo, will you please tell the Committee - Mr Motsamai, specifically about the murder that took place in Melk Street. MR MOTSAMAI CHAIRPERSON Did he say that you were going to commit murder there? MR MOTSAMAI He asked Mamome to take out the firearm and he showed - he enquired about the bullets, there were six. The gun was already loaded. He said to us: "you can leave, go and do this task but before that, take here this money" - it was R10,00, "you must buy petrol so that after finishing - after you have finished killing these people you will burn the house, set it alight" if possible. Mamome took the R10,00, then we left the office. We left that place where I stayed. He was the one driving the car. We drove down Mosheshwe Street until we reached Cooper Avenue at the corner, we turned to the left. That road led to 4 and 6 section of the location. At the end of Cooper Avenue, he turned left, he parked the car along the road. We got off - I had the petrol and I put it down and then I started putting on hand gloves and I pulled down my face the balaclava that Sergeant Mamome brought along. He also did the same, he even used hand gloves - he put hand gloves. We left the car there. We went down the street on foot, we went up that Melk Street until we reached - we were leading to the corner. He pulled the old man but he grabbed the door and then he started screaming. He was holding the door with his right hand. He was being pulled by his left hand. He gripped the door and he - the door hit him on his chest. Now he just had one choice to get with the old man in the house and then he grabbed the old man on the neck. He tried to pull himself loose but however failed to pull himself loose. I entered the house - I opened the door, it was dark inside. You The house caught fire. We jumped the fence and went back to the car. We got into the car, he drove the car through 4 and 6 section of the location. Now we were going through Bato location. He used the tarred road down there in Bato location and he took me home. He had the gun with him at that time. I gave the gun back to him. I got home - I slept. We went to work in the morning - we were all in the parade, myself, Mamome, Miningwa - at the parade and Mtyala - M-t-y-a-l-a. We were all reported for duty then we reported about the union activities, student activities, COSAS, AZAZCO, AZAZIM. They reported about churches - what is the situation at different churches. We agreed or rather confirmed that we did take out the task. Mamome was left behind - we went for tea. Whilst having tea, he came. I could tell from his expression that he was a bit sad. I asked myself now what error had we done because we took out the order as it was given to us. He said to me, Major Coetzee and Lieutenant Shaw wants to see you. I went to them. As I entered their office, the other one sat on the left hand side and Colonel Coetzee stayed across the - Major MR MEMANI CHAIRPERSON COMMITTEE ADJOURNS ON RESUMPTION MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI (s.u.o.) MR BRINK CHAIRPERSON Page 40? MR BRINK Page 40 of bundle A. DISCO MOTHEGE (sworn states) EXAMINATION BY MR BRINK Mr Mothege, is that how you pronounce your name? MR MOTHEGE Yes, that is the correct pronounciation. MR BRINK Do you see the applicant sitting in the front row of the auditorium behind the camera man? MR MOTHEGE Yes, I can see him. MR BRINK When did you first see him? MR MOTHEGE I first saw him during the testimony of Jack Menega, I think it was around March or April. MR BRINK Of this year? MR MOTHEGE Yes, in 1997. MR BRINK And is it true that you are a school teacher by profession? MR MOTHEGE MR BRINK Did you ever teach at the Matshedisa School? MR MOTHEGE I have never taught at the Matshedisa School. MR BRINK Now, I have referred you to page 40 of the bundle of papers before you where your name appears on a short list of those who are alleged to have been members of an anti-comrade group or organisation, do you see that? MR MOTHEGE Yes, I can. MR BRINK Were you ever a member of supporter of any anti-comrades organisation of group? MR MOTHEGE I have never been a member of any of the gangs. MR BRINK Did you know Jack Menega? MR MOTHEGE Yes, I know Jack. MR BRINK And was it he who drew your attention to the presence of Mr Ngo the applicant, in March or April of this year when Jack Menega gave evidence? MR MOTHEGE MR BRINK Thank you Mr Mothege. JUDGE NGOEPE MR MOTHEGE Yes, that is correct. MR VISSER Visser on record. Mr Chairman, perhaps just by way of clarification, a question or two. In what sense or regard did Mr Menega draw you attention to Mr Ngo, what did he say to you? MR MOTHEGE He said to me that is the person who wrote down the list of your names, this person applied for amnesty and your names appear in his statement. MR VISSER No further questions, thank you Mr Chairman. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VISSER MR STANDER NO QUESTIONS BY MR STANDER CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MEMANI MR MOTHEGE Yes, that is correct. MR MEMANI MR MOTHEGE MR MEMANI And you see Mr, my instructions in fact they come from Mr Ngo, are that he says that you are a member of the anti-comrades group because when you went to Brandfort, Ramosoeu introduced him to inform us - let me say he told him about the informers who were working with the security branch and he mentioned you as one of the persons that they should never shoot at, should the occasion arise for them to shoot at comrades who would be fighting with the gangsters there. MR MOTHEGE I dispute that evidence. MR MEMANI MR MOTHEGE I repeat, I dispute what is being said. MR MEMANI MR MOTHEGE That is not correct. I leaded with all - everybody, even the comrades. MR MEMANI Those are my questions Sir. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MEMANI MR BRINK No re-examination thank you. NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR BRINK CHAIRPERSON Thank you, you may be excused now. WITNESS EXCUSED EXAMINATION BY MR MEMANI (cont) Now Mr Motsamai, you were telling us about the incident regarding the murder at Melk Street. What happened to the firearm that was used? MR MOTSAMAI That firearm, I cannot tell whether it was after three months or four, Sergeant Mamome told me that a man by the name of "Yster" who sold gas cylinders in Rocklands location said to him he needed a gun however, a licensed firearm. Because this man needed a firearm, he took the very firearm in question and gave it to Yster - the very gun that we used to kill this old man. MR MEMANI Now Mr Motsamai, I hope that concludes your evidence regarding the incident of the death of George Musi and may we proceed to deal with the second incident at page 146 ...[intervention] ADV DE JAGER MR MOTSAMAI ADV DE JAGER Do you know whether a licence was arranged? MR MOTSAMAI I do not know, I have never heard that his licence has been arranged - the firearm licence. ADV DE JAGER MR MOTSAMAI Up till today, I do not recall ...[intervention] ADV DE JAGER Repeat the answer? MR MOTSAMAI Up till today, I do not know if or rather Sergeant Mamome never came to me ...[intervention] [Committee has problems with headphones] ADV DE JAGER Could you kindly repeat the answer please. MR MOTSAMAI Up till today he never came to me or I never saw the approval where this man made an application for a licence for the firearm. ADV DE JAGER Thank you. MR MEMANI Now, the next incident is the one involving the burning of the house of Winnie Mandela. MR MOTSAMAI That is correct. MR MEMANI Can you tell the Committee about that incident please. MR MOTSAMAI It was in the morning in this instance, everybody reported about their duties with regards to different organisations that we handled. As we left, Coetzee said to myself and Mamome we must follow him - Lieutenant Shaw was present. Now, they wanted to inform us but they were not sure as what to tell us. ADV DE JAGER Who arrived in a car? MR MOTSAMAI Sergeant Mamome. We went through the veld to the car and I was asking him: "where is the car" because it was dark. He said: "come, you will see where I parked the car". We got to the car and we drove back to Bloemfontein. As we came to Bloemfontein, we reported to Colonel Coetzee - Major Coetzee and Lieutenant Shaw, that we took out our task as ordered. About the files - before I continue, these files - something came out of these files because they had all sorts of information. The files contained all sorts of information about the comrades, what are her movements or his movements. I think if you could find these files, they could be of assistance to the TRC in a certain manner because when we track somebody, we would track you until you die. We must file your death certificate according to the command we received. I wanted that to be recorded. Myself and Mamome were given the command, we were given money, we went upstairs - had tea. We took out our vehicles, worked and we came back - knocked off duty and left for home. I bought the petrol during the night, 2 x 5 litre containers, plastic containers for petrol. At midnight he - they came driving in a Kombi. We went straight and entered. Him, Mamome, told Miningwa and Morakile and Mtyala that: "I want you to look around, if there would be a person who would see what we are doing, you inform me or you deal with that person accordingly" - anyone who would see us. That meant if there be - there was somebody who saw us on that day, this man would do something about that person, that the person might be killed and officers would account to avoid maybe a jail sentence for what we were about to do. The following day at the parade, Coetzee was asking myself and Nzito, not knowing that Nzito brought along his own people ...[intervention] MR MEMANI Who is Nzito? MR MOTSAMAI JUDGE NGOEPE MR MOTSAMAI JUDGE NGOEPE Sorry, did you say Mr interpreter - did you say they nodded their heads or they bowed their heads. INTERPRETER They bowed their heads. MR MOTSAMAI If maybe, before I continue that it may happen, that they say he was of our unit, that would be a mistake and again I hope that they could have forged their papers. He was working with us but he was not of our unit. MR MEMANI To which unit did he belong at this stage? MR MOTSAMAI He was in the investigative unit. MR MEMANI MR MOTSAMAI He left from ... MR MEMANI You may proceed. INTERPRETER MR VISSER INTERPRETER MR MOTSAMAI INTERPRETER MR MOTSAMAI JUDGE NGOEPE MR MOTSAMAI CID, Fuchsware. MR VISSER MR MEMANI And you say he applied to join the security branch whilst working under - already working for security branch? MR MOTSAMAI That is so. MR MEMANI Now you may proceed. MR MOTSAMAI MR MEMANI Now, that concludes the applications in respect of Winnie Mandela. The next one is contained in paragraph 3 at page 146. Yes, may you proceed with that application - the house of Bobby Sebotsa. MR MOTSAMAI MR MEMANI Just one second, are you saying NI or NR? MR MOTSAMAI That is national intelligence which fell under Captain Prinsloo. JUDGE NGOEPE I think the witnesses has actually been saying NI all along but I think the interpreter has been mishearing because the interpreter kept on saying NR instead of NI. MR MOTSAMAI MR MEMANI May you repeat? You said they decided to - that whose house should be burnt? MR MOTSAMAI MR MEMANI Now Mr Motsamai, have a look at paragraph 3 of your application, you say the house that was bombed was his parental house. MR MOTSAMAI Yes, I took him as his parent - they were under his care. MR MEMANI You may proceed. MR MOTSAMAI They took a decision - that is Coetzee and Shaw that this house should be bombed. They wanted to take out money and then we reminded him about the petrol whom we took it from the car. JUDGE NGOEPE How long did you keep this petrol that you had taken out of the Datsun Laurel? MR MOTSAMAI JUDGE NGOEPE You kept it for months? MR MOTSAMAI Yes, before this incident. JUDGE NGOEPE MR MOTSAMAI ADV DE JAGER Which petrol did you use? MR MOTSAMAI ADV DE JAGER CHAIRPERSON Not this time, they reminded them of the petrol. ADV DE JAGER I thought he said - okay, carry on. MR MOTSAMAI I looked for bottles, four bottles - I took sugar ...[intervention] JUDGE NGOEPE Sorry Mr Motsamai, before you come to the bottles and the sugar, maybe you should clear this. Where you given money this time or were you not given money before you reminded them of the petrol from the Datsun? MR MOTSAMAI This time we reminded them about the petrol we stored, then they said to us we should use that petrol but though not all of it. JUDGE NGOEPE Yes, I interrupted you when you were telling us about how you went about making petrol bombs, you mentioned some four bottles - you can proceed from there. MR MOTSAMAI I looked for four bottles which had lids - which had steel lids. I took sugar, I put it in every bottle - white sugar. I took a tube which I cut in pieces and I put them in each bottle. CHAIRPERSON Is that motor car tube? MR MOTSAMAI ADV DE JAGER Who was in the car? MR MOTSAMAI It was Sergeant Mamome, he was the one who was driving. We - only the two of us in the car. MR MEMANI Mr Motsamai, when did you say Mamome arrived? MR MOTSAMAI Midnight. MR MEMANI MR MOTSAMAI MR MEMANI What I want to have cleared up, does he intend on each occasion to say that he arrived at 12 midnight or does he intend saying that he arrived at some time during the night - late night. MR MOTSAMAI Midnight. MR MEMANI Okay, thank you. JUDGE NGOEPE Sorry, what do you mean by midnight? CHAIRPERSON JUDGE NGOEPE What do you mean by midnight? MR MOTSAMAI JUDGE NGOEPE MR MOTSAMAI MR MEMANI You may proceed. MR MOTSAMAI Then we left together with him with the car. We went through Mosheshe Road until we arrived where Kings Street starts then we followed Kings Street, we went outside just in front of the shack houses. Where were stopped we - there are shack houses on the other side of the built houses, then we passed Gala Street, then we passed Mombati Street, then we stopped alongside the road because we have arrived where we were going. Then we arrived at Mbinda Street. For the first time we left the car, both of us after we stopped alongside the road, we examined the situation, we looked as whether there are no people roaming around, then we appeared at Mbinda Street, then there were no people who were walking on the street, people were asleep at that time. MR MEMANI Mr Chairman, before the witness proceeds may the applicants application be amended to include offences which might arise as a result of the presence of the woman? CHAIRPERSON MR MEMANI As the Chair pleases. You may proceed. MR MOTSAMAI When we left, we ran to the car. We left there, the house was burning, the house was in flames. We went into the car, he ignited the engine then made a u-turn, then he took me home. MR MEMANI Did anything appear concerning the incident thereafter? MR MOTSAMAI Do you mean the house or to us? MR MEMANI Amongst the policemen. MR MOTSAMAI They took me early in the morning and we reported what we have done and then Mamome explained what we - that we have accomplished the operation which we were instructed by Colonel Coetzee and Shaw. MR MEMANI The next application is set out at paragraph 4 - the bombing of a house belonging to a businessman, Nicos. MR MOTSAMAI Can I continue? MR MEMANI Yes. MR MOTSAMAI MR MEMANI Carry on. MR MOTSAMAI They informed us - they called myself and Nzito that we should go to this person and visit him. The instruction was that I should attack his house. MR VISSER CHAIRPERSON ...[inaudible] MR MOTSAMAI What is your problem Sir? MR MEMANI Who is Nzito? MR MOTSAMAI That is Sergeant Mamome. MR MEMANI It is better to refer to him as Mamome and not as Nzito. MR MOTSAMAI CHAIRPERSON MR MEMANI I beg your pardon? CHAIRPERSON MR MEMANI MR VISSER Well, I think maybe the witness should just repeat what he has told us because nobody knows what he said Mr Chairman, not you, not I. MR MEMANI Proceed Mr Motsamai. MR VISSER Mr Chairman, if my learned friend refuses ...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON Who told - you said you were instructed to attack the house, who went? MR MOTSAMAI What are you referring to? CHAIRPERSON You have just told us that Coetzee and Shaw who tried to use this man Nicos, said he was troublesome and you were instructed to attack his house. MR MOTSAMAI That is so. CHAIRPERSON Who went to attack his house? MR MOTSAMAI CHAIRPERSON Come to them now please. MR MOTSAMAI He gave us that command, that is Colonel Coetzee. It was myself and Mamome. We were going to use that very same petrol. CHAIRPERSON Who went with you to attack the house. MR MEMANI CHAIRPERSON MR MOTSAMAI CHAIRPERSON MR MOTSAMAI That is Sergeant Mamome, that is Mtyala, Morakile and myself. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. MR MEMANI Now Mr Motsamai, may you go back to the stage where you were being given instructions. You told us that Shaw gave you and Mamome instructions, what instructions were those - rather Coetzee? MR MOTSAMAI That is Coetzee and Shaw. We found two people there, that is Coetzee and Shaw. It was myself and Mamome. It was - we were off duty. I arrived at home and made those petrol bombs as I said before how I made the petrol bombs. This time at this instance, I made six petrol bombs. Mamome arrived at my place - it was at night. He was driving a car. I took those six petrol bombs together with the rags and a knife in the car. After we extinguished the bottles, we used these gloves as they are with our fingers exposed. They will go to the investigators and tell them what to do, how to handle the situation that we found ourselves in. We started from scratch with the bottles - the rags must face down and we set them alight - the four bottles. Mamome had two petrol bombs - the others were not set alight. We were heading for this house running. Mtyala started and then Morakile followed - they - I mean here they threw the petrol bombs. And then Nzito threw the bomb and then after him I followed. We had to take turns again. MR MEMANI Now, may we proceed to the next incident, the incident contained in paragraph 5. MR BRINK CHAIRPERSON MR MEMANI As the Chair pleases. Now the next incident is contained at paragraph 5. Yes? MR MOTSAMAI May I say something here? MR MEMANI Yes. MR MOTSAMAI MR MEMANI Yes, you may now proceed to next incident which is at page 5, rather paragraph 5 - the burning of the motor vehicle of Jani Mohapi. MR MOTSAMAI With respect to this incident, the command was Major Coetzee and Shaw - they had his file to get the command to deal - in respect of dealing with Mr Mohapi, for us to burn his motor vehicle or his house. Coetzee himself tried dealing with this man. MR MEMANI Tried to recruit him. MR MOTSAMAI The first assault or harassment was to go and burn his motor vehicle as a start. With respect to this one, we were given money to buy petrol however we still had petrol, we were given R10,00 to buy petrol. ADV DE JAGER And was the same procedure followed to prepare bombs and to burn the car? MR MOTSAMAI ADV DE JAGER I see. MR MEMANI You may proceed Mr Motsamai. MR MOTSAMAI ADV DE JAGER Could you kindly repeat the name? He was in the company of? MR MOTSAMAI Nelson Ngo. CHAIRPERSON Is he the gentleman sitting in the front row there? MR MOTSAMAI MR MEMANI MR MOTSAMAI He came along with this boy. I had this five litre container - we got in the car - we drove off. My question to him was that now, how does - where does Ngo fit in here? He said: "I went to fetch him" - that is Sergeant Mamome telling me - "because I need somebody to watch the car". Now I asked him, we were told to go and burn the car - the motor vehicle - there are a lot of cars that pass by there. He told me: "I brought along a motor vehicle tyre and some newspaper". MR BRINK CHAIRPERSON MR MEMANI CHAIRPERSON MR MEMANI CHAIRPERSON MR MEMANI How could I have known that he was going to say that next? CHAIRPERSON MR MEMANI But how do you blame me for the fact that he said that. CHAIRPERSON You have not made the slightest attempt Mr Memani, to tell your client to cut down the length of his evidence and to direct it to the relevant details. MR MEMANI I did when he referred to Tswametzi, I brought him back on track. ADV DE JAGER MR MEMANI As the Chair pleases. Now what happened as you were burning the vehicle? Did you ignite the paper? MR MOTSAMAI We stuffed the papers inside the tyre and we poured paraffin over the papers, then we put it underneath the car. We sprinkled the petrol over the car. MR MEMANI Yes, what ...[intervention] ADV DE JAGER Could I just enquire - did you pour paraffin into the tyre? MR MOTSAMAI Petrol. ADV DE JAGER Thank you. MR MOTSAMAI I poured petrol. ADV DE JAGER Thank you. MR MOTSAMAI MR MEMANI Did you report to anyone about what had occurred in the evening? MR MOTSAMAI We reported the incident in the morning to Major Coetzee and Lieutenant Shaw, that we did burn that car and Sergeant Mamome did read to them that Ngo was present. They kept quiet and stared at each other. MR MEMANI Now the next incident is at page 147. CHAIRPERSON Before we go on, can you tell us when this happened? MR MOTSAMAI Are you referring to all these incidents that I have talked about? CHAIRPERSON MR MOTSAMAI CHAIRPERSON And the Mandela incidents? MR MOTSAMAI ADV DE JAGER When did you join the police? MR MOTSAMAI In 1979. ADV DE JAGER And when did you join the security force? MR MOTSAMAI ADV DE JAGER MR MOTSAMAI ADV DE JAGER Can you give us a date? When did you join the security branch? MR MOTSAMAI ADV DE JAGER MR MOTSAMAI ADV DE JAGER Okay, proceed please. MR MEMANI It seems to be a convenient time Mr Chair. CHAIRPERSON Have we finished this incident now? MR MEMANI I guess so. CHAIRPERSON MR BRINK May I suggest that during the adjourn Mr Chairman, with respect my learned friend, not me to tell him how to run his case but he ...[inaudible] his client fully in respect of the remaining incidents so that he knows what questions to put to him so that we can indeed finish. MR MEMANI I think ...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON COMMITTEE ADJOURNS ON RESUMPTION ON 09.09.97 MOHONAESE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI (s.u.o.) MR STANDER Just hand you the list of the victims I represent as at today. CHAIRPERSON ...[inaudible] MR MEMANI Now, did you burn the house of Citi Mzuzwana? MR MOTSAMAI That is so Sir. Here the instruction came from Lieutenant Shaw and from Colonel Coetzee. That is when Citi Mzuzwana was detained at our offices under certain sections of the security legislation. Whilst he was interrogated about ...[inaudible] Youth Congress issues because he was the organiser of the ...[inaudible] Youth Congress and then again he was the one who was organising these signatures for 1.000.000 for the "Release Mandela Campaign". They informed us that we should go there. We went there in the evening. It was myself because Mamome, when we were sent both of us, he would act his own decisions then he brought Lesale and Miningwa. I have already made petrol bombs - there were four in number. We went there - we were driving a Kombi. We parked on a certain street. It was at night. We went on foot through a tarred road and examining as whether we are not watched. Then we started running again and Lesale, he strained his leg. After he strained his leg because I was behind him, Mamome was in front, I took the petrol bomb from Lesale ...[intervention] JUDGE NGOEPE MR MOTSAMAI Yes, we petrol-bombed the house. JUDGE NGOEPE And after petrol-bombing it, what happened? MR MOTSAMAI MR MEMANI From there you went to your respective homes as it was the practice? MR MOTSAMAI MR MEMANI And then the following day, did you go and report? MR MOTSAMAI Yes, we reported in the morning. We explained to the Lieutenant Shaw and Colonel Coetzee that we have accomplished the operation. ADV DE JAGER Was the car also bombed? MR MOTSAMAI Yes, that is true, it was bombed by Sergeant Mamome. MR MEMANI Is there anything you want to say about this particular incident? MR MOTSAMAI No, I would leave it there because I have already explained that two people never participated in the throwing of the petrol bombs and they were supposed to do so. MR MEMANI Now, the next incident is at paragraph 7 - the shooting of Zwelinzima Mzuzwana. MR MOTSAMAI This incident, if I may explain it clearly. I was at home - we knocked off earlier. Sergeant Mamome came to me - it was around past 5 in the afternoon. He informed me that: "Boyzi, I received a telephone message from Lieutenant Shaw which informed me that at the AME church at 4 and 6, there is a meeting which is held by Michael and that the person called Mzuzwana who is the brother to Citi Mzuzwana are present and on top of that the information received from the informers is that Mazgwe, an executive of COSAS - they have knives with them which they want to use them if one of the security police would stop them on the road". We left then from home with a security police car. We went to ...[inaudible] Street and we proceeded to 4 and 6. We looked at the AME church, we found that it is true there is a MYKO meeting there. And then again Sergeant Mamome, he explained earlier that Lieutenant Shaw has given him the instruction that we should do by all means possible to harass Mazgwe. MR MEMANI Who is Mazgwe? MR MOTSAMAI That is the younger brother to Citi Mzuzwana. MR MEMANI Is that Zwelinjani Mzuzwana? MR MOTSAMAI MR MEMANI Did anything happen at the bus? MR MOTSAMAI Sergeant Mamome informed those people that there is a meeting which is held at AME church by Michael and in that meeting it seems they are arranging that police should be stabbed with knives. It was late and it was at dusk if I remember well. I went to the toilet, when I came back that big van was looking at the direction of the road. Then I went inside because I saw that they were waiting for me. I found Sergeant Mamome and they closed the door, then we left. Inside that van Sergeant Mamome informed a certain gentleman who is a policeman, informing how - what kind of people were they and that they were carrying knives. Then he pointed Mazgwe, then he said: "look on his waist". We were able to see that there is a knife on his waist. We went to Kings Street following them, we entered the tarred road. They were walking alongside the road to the direction of Rocklands. We followed them and they were still singing their songs - that is freedom songs. The certain policeman who was next to Nzito alighted from the car, they went straight to Mazgwe. Mazgwe saw that this police is coming to me then he retreated then asking him: "what is happening, are you coming to arrest me or what"? He put his hand inside his pocket. This policeman had a gun, it was a gun which uses rubber bullets - it was a teargas gun. MR MEMANI The next incident is at paragraph 8 - the petrol bombing of the house of Citi Mzuzwana. Now, may you tell this Committee whether you got any instructions for the petrol-bombing of this house and from who? MR MOTSAMAI MR VISSER CHAIRPERSON I think that that is something that should be done, that when he mentions persons, he should mention the names that appear in his application forms such Zwelinzima Mzuzwana and when he mentions Sergeant Mamome, he should mention - use that name and not his first name. MR MEMANI CHAIRPERSON It is not, you have now ...[intervention] INTERPRETER CHAIRPERSON You will kindly use surnames in future. We do not - I support entirely what Mr Visser said. He changes from name to name and incident to incident. I take it you did have discussions with him yesterday? MR MEMANI You may proceed. MR MOTSAMAI MR MEMANI Did the house burn? MR MOTSAMAI Yes, it burnt. MR MEMANI Did you see Ngo again? MR MOTSAMAI ADV DE JAGER MR MOTSAMAI No, he was not present. MR MEMANI Now the next incident is at paragraph 9 - the burning of a motor vehicle belonging to One Thabatha. Now can you tell the Committee about this incident? MR MOTSAMAI MR MEMANI Do you know her surname now? MR MOTSAMAI MR MEMANI I hope in due course Mr Stander will be able to help us. Now will you tell us about the incident. MR MOTSAMAI In this incident Mr Thabatha, he was detained together with Citi. Himself, he was detained about the activities of United Front. He was the main organiser of United Democratic Front at Vulamasango. The instructions given to us - we were supposed to go and petrol bomb his motor vehicle because that was the car he used to travel all over the area for United Democratic Front. The instructions were from Lieutenant Shaw because he was the one who was supposed to handle everything and he want to recruited him so that he must be our informer. Together with Mamome he tried to recruited him so that we must have information about UDF, that is United Democratic Front. MR MEMANI Did anything happen? MR MOTSAMAI We went outside the gate - we lit our petrol bombs. We threw the first one and I was the second to attack and then after that we left - went back. CHAIRPERSON Do you know when this was? What year? MR MOTSAMAI We went back and give the report with Sergeant Mamome to Lieutenant Shaw about the incident. ADV DE JAGER Can we go to the next incident or do you want to add something? MR MOTSAMAI We may proceed Sir. MR MEMANI The next incident involves the bombing of a house of a teacher. May you proceed with that, yes. MR MOTSAMAI This Bholosha is a lady teacher, she taught at Vulamasango. She was a member of UDF working together with Mr Thabatha in that UDF. This particular woman, she was detained in one day. They were trying to recruit her about the incidents of UDF. When we got the instructions is because she was refusing to be recruited. The instructions were from Lieutenant Shaw. We got these instructions together with Mamome and myself so that we must go and petrol-bomb her house. I made petrol bombs - there were four in number. The very night before we attacked, Mamome arrived at my place. When I entered into the car, Morakile was there. We were using a small car - it was fully packed. It was myself, Mtyala, Litseo and Lesale. MR MEMANI Was Morakile present? MR MOTSAMAI After bombing the house we went back to the car, hurried in - we left the area. He took us back to our places. The following day we reported about the incident to Lieutenant Shaw. MR MEMANI The next incident is the bombing of the houses of Kuze and Sekope Mallet. Will you proceed with that application? MR MOTSAMAI MR MEMANI Is it Baba Khuzela? MR MOTSAMAI It is so Sir. The instruction given to us by Lieutenant Shaw - it was myself and Mamome. This guy used to have a file, he was also a student at Vulamasango. He was the main organiser at the executive at Vulamasango of COSAS. Shaw instructed us to go and attack their house so that he must stop organising all these activities. We went to his place - it was myself, Sergeant Mamome. We managed to attack with two petrol bombs. MR MEMANI Before you proceed. Who was with you when you petrol-bombed the house of Baba Khuzela? MR MOTSAMAI We were two, it was myself and Sergeant Mamome. MR MEMANI And did you report to anyone about the incident? MR MOTSAMAI Yes, we did report about the incident to Lieutenant Shaw. MR MEMANI You may proceed. MR MOTSAMAI To go and attack his house - he brought missionaries from abroad to South Africa to come and investigate how Black people live in South Africa. At our offices Lieutenant Shaw said, these people is blackmailing us abroad particularly to the Whites abroad. JUDGE NGOEPE INTERPRETER That is accepted Sir. MR MOTSAMAI MR MEMANI The next incident is contained at page 12 - at 148, paragraph 12. This is the attack on a parish house. May you proceed with that application please. MR MOTSAMAI We make petrol bombs after the writing of the letter, under the instructions of Colonel Coetzee and Lieutenant Shaw so that we must go and petrol-bomb the church because they used to say he was the main influence of scholars so that they must be against the regime of Qwa Qwa. CHAIRPERSON Did they say: "attack the church" or "attack his house"? MR MOTSAMAI When we went to Botshabelo from Bloemfontein we arrived at Botshabelo. That mission is on top of a hill, below there are some furrows and it is easy for people to cross over that area. We have packed our cars below there. It was myself, Mamome - we were ready with our petrol bombs - and Morakile. We left Sesedinyyana in the car because he was the driver and he knew the area where the mission was situated. We went on top through the trenches to approach the mission. When we arrived on top, Mamome lit the petrol bomb - he lit three of them. The fourth one we lit it, I hold it in my left hand - we go and attack. I threw the last one because the house was already burning - the church was already burning. We were moving next - or through the trenches. JUDGE NGOEPE INTERPRETER The applicant is using both words, at times he uses the church and at times, the mission. CHAIRPERSON MR MEMANI As the Chair pleases. Now ...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON What was burning? Did they leave a church burning when they ran away? MR MEMANI Did you burn the church or the mission? MR MOTSAMAI JUDGE NGOEPE Now, you cannot just use these things in such a confusing way because very soon it would appear that you are contradicting yourself. You must decide whether you tell us about the church or the mission house. MR MOTSAMAI JUDGE NGOEPE Keep to that then. MR MOTSAMAI MR MEMANI You then drove away from the scene. MR MOTSAMAI MR MEMANI Did you report about the incident? MR MOTSAMAI Yes, we reported about the incident to Lieutenant Shaw and Colonel Coetzee. MR MEMANI Now, the next incident is the incident relating to the assault and torture of detained and/or arrested political activists. Are you able to tell the Committee about this incident? MR MOTSAMAI MR MEMANI Now, where did the torture take place? MR MOTSAMAI It took place at our office. I would like to tell you, to give you names of all people. MR MEMANI Now, there is a list contained at pages 140 to 141. Now do you want to read the names as they appear on the list. MR MOTSAMAI Yes, I would read the names which appear on the list. MR VISSER MR MEMANI Mr Chairman, I would have expected the names to be read for the record in any way. MR VISSER I withdraw ...[intervention] ADV DE JAGER MR MOTSAMAI Monampule Nthaba. We took him from his home. The same information we received about Makhubalo. He wanted to cross the South African border. He was in Browland Street. We made him to do frog jumps, we made him to do push-ups. Those are the methods we used to harass the people - to torture the people. He was taken by the people who were working in the 4th floor. When I speak of the 4th floor, the unit which is responsible for MK and ANC - they were under the command of Colonel du Plooy. CHAIRPERSON How were you assaulting them? MR MOTSAMAI JUDGE NGOEPE In the Transvaal they call that an aeroplane, you call it chicken piece in the Free State? MR MOTSAMAI It might be so Sir. JUDGE NGOEPE MR MOTSAMAI CHAIRPERSON Can we go back to Baba Khuzela for a moment, is he the one who is mentally disturbed now? MR MOTSAMAI CHAIRPERSON MR MOTSAMAI That is true. MR MEMANI You may proceed Mr Motsamai. MR MOTSAMAI MR MEMANI MR MOTSAMAI This one of Citi Mzuzwana. MR MEMANI Go on. MR MOTSAMAI MR MEMANI I think what the witness was saying was one of persons in respect of whom he had been instructed to go and collect and detain but he was assaulted by other people, not me. ADV DE JAGER Kindly continue. MR MOTSAMAI James Khotsisile Thloloe. This one you used to assault him, even on the streets together with Mamome. In that assault of myself and Sergeant Mamome, he managed to cross borders. He joined the MK or Umkhonto weSizwe. When we used to meet him around the streets, he was supposed to run away because he used to know when we assaulted him, even on the streets so that he must stop all the activities of RMC. He was the one who used to distribute the papers of RMC. They used to use him to distribute pamphlets around the location. It ends there. Jeje. He is under the same category of Oupa. He has done the frog jumps, claps and kicks. He was kicked - we tried to recruit him. White Mohapi. He also falls under the same category under the instructions of Colonel Coetzee and Lieutenant Shaw - Lieutenant Shaw. He has done frog jumps because he was the Chairman of COSAS in Free State. His assaults were greater than the rest of the people so that he must stop this activity - stop organising so that COSAS should develop and grow. I still remember after the frog jumps, he was taken by Warrant Officer Calitz into his office. I was there - it was Calitz, myself and Mamome. MR MEMANI Did you say that you also went to close the window at some stage? MR MOTSAMAI I closed the door - I closed the door which I went through - in the room where they were. Oupa Mokele. He was fetched also but he was taken to 4th floor. Elisha Lefuo and Elia Lefuo. They were also made to do frog jumps and push-ups and they were clapped and kicked but by that time, they were members of AZAZO - that is Azanian Movement. Also they were assaulted and they were told what to do and they were told to stop organising Azazism activities from schools. Jomo Lefuo. There were three of them when we collected them, that is Elisha, Elia and Jomo - they are from the same family. He - I clapped him in the car but when he arrived at the office, he knows very well who was responsible for his assault - he would explain. He was a member of UDF - he was in the lid and organising and he problematic to our offices because in Botshabelo he was one who was organising students together with ministers so that they should be against the annexation of Botshabelo to Qwa Qwa. CHAIRPERSON Commander - is that a name of a rank? Is it Commander or Kamanda? MR MOTSAMAI It was in the morning when we were able to find him. Jantjie was present and then they had information from Lesotho about him. When I speak of Jantjie, I speak of a certain person in Ladybrand who is Warrant Officer Jantjie. They found information from Lesotho that this person has knowledge about APLA in Lesotho. MR MEMANI Yes you may. CHAIRPERSON MR MEMANI ADV DE JAGER MR MOTSAMAI No English translation. MR MEMANI Yes. MR MOTSAMAI I insulted him through his mother on the private parts. He was affected by that then I was able to see that he is angry then if he was near, would do me something. After I assaulted him I left there and he was left with the Ascaris. He would explain his version how the Ascaris assaulted him. CHAIRPERSON Were they taken on the same day, these two? MR MOTSAMAI On the 25th, I forgot the names of those members of Umkhonto weSizwe. I forgot their names because it is in this way - they were using code names and I forgot those code names also. We assaulted them. ADV DE JAGER MR MOTSAMAI These members of the task force were trained inside South Africa, though some of them were trained in Transkei to use firearms, explosives and grenades to find ammunition from the police to help APLA when they have an attack which they want to do inside the country. They wanted to control the economy of the land. That is the information we received from Transkei and other places - that is from ...[inaudible]. The information which I know is that they should come to South Africa, they should attack the banks so that they should - they should make an impact to the economy of the country. That information is in the files which I talked about that all of them were taken and with the members of various organisations. ADV DE JAGER MR MOTSAMAI MR MEMANI Mr Motsamai, may we deal with the application contained in paragraph 14 at page 148 - the attempted murder on Oupa Makhubalo. MR MOTSAMAI You mean 148 - page 148? MR MEMANI Yes. MR MOTSAMAI No English translation. MR MEMANI Paragraph 14. MR MOTSAMAI MR MEMANI Mr Motsamai, may you please give the interpreters a change to interpret please. MR MOTSAMAI When we arrived at ...[inaudible] house, we found that Oupa was going through the gate, then we stopped - the he turned - Sergeant Mamome pulled the gun. He wanted to shoot him the time he was running before he jumped the fence to the other house - he missed him and then the bullet went straight to - was straight to the shack house ...[intervention] JUDGE NGOEPE Sorry, they asked you to go a little bit slowly because people need time to interpret. MR MEMANI Mamome missed. MR MOTSAMAI Mamome missed. That straight bullet hit a shack house behind the ...[inaudible] house. We went out of the car - all people who were in the car, then we spread around the township so that we were able to catch him before he goes far. Together with Sergeant Mamome, we went out of the car. In other words, all of us went out of the car, then we left the car there. Then Sergeant Mamome went to him and tripped him, he fell on the ground - he kicked him on the face. I arrived him and then we arrested him. We took him to the office. In the office we continued with the assault - he was beaten. Anyone who was there took part in the assault. We left him like that - we handed him over to the officers. They officers called the people who were investigating his case. MR MEMANI Now that concludes the applicants application Sir - his evidence. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MEMANI CHAIRPERSON COMMITTEE ADJOURNS MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI (s.u.o.) ON RESUMPTION CHAIRPERSON MR MEMANI That is correct Sir. CHAIRPERSON Anybody wish to ask any questions now? MR VISSER CHAIRPERSON I think it is fair Mr Visser, to say that many of us were taken by surprise I think that they were also separate incidents. The wording of the application appeared to indicate rather that it was one incident with many people involved and I sympathize with the problems you may have in that regard but can you wait a moment? Although I sympathize with your problems, I do think it would be better if we could deal with and dispose of this applicant and have the victims a separated thing, as we said before. MR VISSER JUDGE NGOEPE Can you just hold it for a minute? CHAIRPERSON MR STANDER Mr Chairman, there is in fact quite a lot of questions that I can ask him. CHAIRPERSON MR STANDER CHAIRPERSON CROSS-EXAMINATION MR STANDER Mr Motsamai, you told us in great length how it came about that Mr George Musi had to be murdered. What I do want to know from you is, what happened after he was murdered? Did anybody give this information as to whom was responsible for his murder? MR MOTSAMAI No, there is only one person whom it was talked, that is Sergeant Mamome whom he told us that. That death was alleged that that person murdered the person and that is China. MR STANDER MR MOTSAMAI MR STANDER MR MOTSAMAI MR STANDER ADV DE JAGER MR MOTSAMAI That is how I found out. MR STANDER Was it the fact - the case that the security police spread dis-information, that Mr Oliphant had been responsible for the death of his grandfather? MR MOTSAMAI MR STANDER Is it the fact - the case that Mr Oliphant was in detention at that stage? MR MOTSAMAI Yes, he was in prison at that time. MR STANDER Do you know why ...[intervention] ADV DE JAGER MR STANDER Was he in detention due to his political activities? MR MOTSAMAI Yes, that is true. CHAIRPERSON Was he questioned by the security police about the murder? MR MOTSAMAI MR STANDER Can you tell me why there a specific instruction that George Musi had to be murdered? MR MOTSAMAI It was because George Musi had a file - China had a file. Mr Musi according to the file or the contents of the file and the information we gathered from Colonel Coetzee and Lieutenant Shaw, is that this man was making it possible for people to escape the country to join Umkhonto weSizwe and again there was an information that a certain group which was detained in Ladybrand was from his house. It was a group of people who were leaving the country to escape to Lesotho to join Umkhonto weSizwe. MR STANDER MR MOTSAMAI MR STANDER MR MOTSAMAI MR VISSER MR MOTSAMAI That is him. MR STANDER When the attack was executed did you expect to find a third person in the house, is this correct? MR MOTSAMAI That is true, that is true. MR STANDER Who was the person you expected to find there? MR MOTSAMAI Any person who could be found in the house. MR STANDER MR MOTSAMAI You mean inside the house? MR STANDER MR MOTSAMAI That is true. MR STANDER Did you know what happened to the investigation after the death of George Musi? MR MOTSAMAI MR STANDER Were you contacted at any stage by anyone about your own involvement? MR MOTSAMAI Meaning in which way I was informed? MR STANDER The question was specifically, whether an investigating officer or anyone ever spoke himself - or a member of the security police ever made contact concerning the death of this person? MR MOTSAMAI You mean the person was not a member of the security force or what? What kind of a policeman are you talking about or what person are you talking about? MR STANDER Mr Motsamai, usually a death is investigated and my question is, such an investigating officer - if one had been appointed - where you or any other member of the security police contacted concerning the death of this person? MR MOTSAMAI ADV DE JAGER Did the CID ever question you about this death? MR MOTSAMAI No. CHAIRPERSON Do you know if your unit or your officers took any steps to keep in touch with the CID or murder and robbery who were investigating the death to find out whether they were making mention of security police intervention in the death? MR MOTSAMAI MR STANDER Did the police at any stage make any contribution to the burial of this person? MR MOTSAMAI No. MR STANDER MR MOTSAMAI MR STANDER MR MOTSAMAI I remember that incident but when he was detained by South African defence force members, we were not involved in the patrols at the border so I was not present. MR STANDER This is the case but later he was a member of a group of 19 brought to Bloemfontein to be questioned and when they were assaulted. Do you know anything about this? MR MOTSAMAI I found them there in the morning when we reported for duty, they were transferred by Ladybrand police. MR MEMANI MR STANDER MR MEMANI It seems my mind was not the only one who was lost. MR STANDER Is it true Mr Motsamai, that when the group arrived, Mr Oliphant and Mr Makhubalo had been identified as the leaders of this group? MR MOTSAMAI That is so. MR STANDER Do you know what happened to these leaders, were they interrogated separately - separate from the rest of the group? MR MOTSAMAI CHAIRPERSON Would you like to estimate that distance MR STANDER Tell me, these leaders, were they members of the same group that was being interrogated? MR MOTSAMAI No English translation. MR STANDER MR MOTSAMAI MR STANDER Tell me, did you ever take part in the assaults of either Mr Oliphant or Mr Makhubalo? MR MOTSAMAI I took part when they were in the 5th floor. On the 4th floor, they were assaulted by others. MR STANDER Could you tell us broadly what kind of assault took place while you were present? MR MOTSAMAI MR STANDER How long did the assault take place, did it last the whole day? MR MOTSAMAI CHAIRPERSON ...[inaudible] you did this to? MR MOTSAMAI We did this to Oupa Makhubalo. MR STANDER What the reason for this assault on Makhubalo? MR MOTSAMAI The reason was to dig information from him as to whether who was responsible because we took a long time searching for them, then we asked him who was hiding him and who was giving him food the time they were in hiding and then again as to whether who was making them to escape the country because when they were crossing the border, that person was the person who had contacts in Lesotho with the MK. MR STANDER Tell me, were you present when Mr China Oliphant was assaulted? MR MOTSAMAI No, I was not present, he was on the 4th floor. MR STANDER MR MOTSAMAI Yes, we were able to hear people screaming from the 4th floor if they made a mistake that the window of that officer where they were torturing the people, it was opened. MR STANDER What happened after the assaults on the first day to this group? MR MOTSAMAI After the assault of Oupa Makhubalo, he was taken by the people of the floor under us, which was the 4th floor. In that assault we were given instructions to do by all means that when we were going to detain them - there is a big book which was used by the police called - that it should not be written in that book that they were assaulted or tortured. They were taken to ...[inaudible] stations. MR STANDER Tell me, previously you said that for each of these persons there was a file, was the fact that these people had been detained, noted in this file? MR MOTSAMAI Yes, each and everyone who was there who were trying to skip the country, had files and their files would differ in size depending on the information from when he began to be a member of COSAS, UDF or MYKO. MR STANDER Do you know whether they were brought back the next day to be assaulted again? MR MEMANI Mr Chairman, before my learned friend goes to the next question, I suspect that there could have been a misunderstanding. The question was asked whether the fact that people who were assaulted, was noted in the file and the answer was yes, everybody who was interrogated had a file and I wonder whether the "yes" referred to confirming that a note was made of the assault in the files. CHAIRPERSON As I understood the question, it was everybody who was detained. MR STANDER That is in fact so Sir. CHAIRPERSON The question was not if everyone who was assaulted was noted in the file, but if everyone who was detained. INTERPRETER May we ask Mr Memani to repeat the question because there has been a little confusion. CHAIRPERSON INTERPRETER MR MEMANI INTERPRETER We ask if the question should be repeated. JUDGE NGOEPE I thing that should be cleared. Did you say that the fact that people were assaulted was noted in their files? MR MOTSAMAI JUDGE NGOEPE Is it now - are you satisfied Mr Memani? MR MEMANI As the Chair pleases. MR STANDER The question I put to you was whether this group had been brought back another day or were they released the same day - what happened, what was the position? MR MOTSAMAI MR STANDER Did you take part in the subsequent days assaults on any of these groups? MR MOTSAMAI MR STANDER MR MOTSAMAI May you please repeat that question? MR STANDER MR MOTSAMAI MR STANDER Can you describe to us what they looked like? What was the effect of this assault on them? MR MOTSAMAI May you please explain clearly Sir? May you please clarify your question? MR STANDER MR MOTSAMAI MR STANDER The questions is, did you in fact see this? MR MOTSAMAI The person I saw, that is China and Oupa. There is the other one whom I forgot - I think it is John Jwuayi. MR STANDER Could you tell us what they looked like please? MR MOTSAMAI Oupa had wounds if I remember well, on the face and then on top of the head - that is where is hair was removed. In the eyes he was swollen a little bit. MR STANDER And Mr China Oliphant? MR MOTSAMAI He had bruises. I was able to see when he was sitting down in the kitchen he had bruises on him - even John Jwuayi. MR STANDER Tell me, how many women were in this group that had been arrested and that had been initially assaulted? MR MOTSAMAI MR STANDER Would you be able to recognise any of these women if you saw them? MR MOTSAMAI Yes. MR STANDER Could I ask that the two women could stand up so that they can be identified by the witness? Do you know the woman who has just stood up? Would you just rise again? MR MOTSAMAI That one is the elder one. MR STANDER Mr Chairman, on the list you will see you will find her name under number 4, Ntabiseng Litlikana. CHAIRPERSON ...[inaudible] MR STANDER Let Ntabiseng rise first and then remain standing. MR VISSER CHAIRPERSON MR VISSER CHAIRPERSON INTERPRETER CHAIRPERSON You asked Ntabiseng Litlikana to stand up. MR STANDER That is so Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON And that was the woman on the right which is as I understand it was not the women that the applicant said was the older one, she is the woman sitting two rows behind. MR STANDER CHAIRPERSON Well perhaps she could stand up again please - the woman at the back there. Perhaps we could ask her, her name. Could you say it again or could say it to the - could you say your name again please? VICTIM ...[inaudible] MR STANDER That is number 5 Mr Chairman. JUDGE NGOEPE MR VISSER CHAIRPERSON MR VISSER Point taken, Mr Chairman. MR STANDER May I continue Mr Chairman? CHAIRPERSON The one he identified was Matapela Litlikana as the elder one. MR STANDER That seems to be number 5. Can I ask Ntabiseng Litlikana, the younger sisters to stand up. CHAIRPERSON Can you see her? MR MOTSAMAI Yes, I do see her. MR STANDER Mr Motsamai, these two women, were they among the women assaulted on that day? MR MOTSAMAI That is so Sir. MR STANDER MR MOTSAMAI JUDGE NGOEPE MR MOTSAMAI They were taken to a doctor, they did receive medical treatment. MR STANDER Do you know whether it was on the same day or only a few days afterwards? MR MOTSAMAI After a few days. MR STANDER Did you know what happened to them eventually, were they released later on? MR MOTSAMAI MR STANDER Did you know whether Baba Khuzela was a member of this particular group? MR MOTSAMAI Yes Sir, he was also present. CHAIRPERSON Number 11? MR STANDER That is indeed so, Mr Chairman. MR MOTSAMAI MR STANDER ADV DE JAGER MR STANDER ADV DE JAGER MR STANDER ADV DE JAGER Do all the members of the first group appear on that list which you represent? MR STANDER No, not at all. ADV DE JAGER Then they must give him another list. MR STANDER We know Makhubalo and Oliphant were present, Baba Khuzela and Litlikana and Matapelo Litlikana. Do you know whether a Tami Makhubalo was present? JUDGE NGOEPE Mr Motsamai, I think your counsel is going to mention certain names and we would like to know whether you are saying those people were in that group which was assaulted as you say. You are going to listen to the names, then you tell us whether that person was there and so on and so forth. MR STANDER Thank you. MR MOTSAMAI You must not be fast. MR STANDER Was Tami Makhubalo a member of this group? MR MOTSAMAI Yes, he was present. MR STANDER Ntano Bellot? MR MOTSAMAI Can you pronounce that name correctly? MR STANDER Ntano Bellot? MR MOTSAMAI Yes, he was present. MR STANDER Zaks Djantje? MR MOTSAMAI What is his first name? MR STANDER Zaks. MR MOTSAMAI He was present. MR STANDER Piet Sekonyala? MR MOTSAMAI He was present. MR STANDER Dali Matjali? MR MOTSAMAI He was present. MR STANDER Monapule Mtamo? MR MOTSAMAI He was present. MR STANDER A person by the name of Kwedi and repeat it so the name is pronounced twice - Kwedi Kwedi? MR MOTSAMAI MR STANDER Then someone called Scara? MR MOTSAMAI Yes, he was present. MR STANDER Kuze Dwayi? MR MOTSAMAI Is that Jwuayi or who? MR STANDER MR MOTSAMAI He was present. MR STANDER Letsego Litlikana? This must be one of the three sisters that you mentioned? MR MOTSAMAI Yes, they were present - she was present. MR STANDER Then Nomnongethani Nakope? MR MOTSAMAI He was present. MR STANDER Then someone called Nyenye? MR MOTSAMAI ...[inaudible] MR STANDER And the last person a Tandi Jacobs? MR MOTSAMAI Is that Jeje or Nje Nje? MR STANDER MR MOTSAMAI MR STANDER And the last one, do you know of someone called Tandi Jacobs - also a woman? MR MOTSAMAI She was present. CHAIRPERSON Can you just clarify something for me? Were all these people taken up to the passage known as Violent Street and assaulted by you and the others? MR MOTSAMAI That is true. MR STANDER Had all of them been assaulted to a greater of lesser degree, to make some sort of confession? MR MOTSAMAI Yes, they were assaulted, they were seriously assaulted. MR STANDER I understand that some of these people later confessed. Is that true, do you know about this? MR MOTSAMAI When you said: "they confessed, what do you mean"? MR STANDER That certain information had been handed over to the security police because the assaults had just become too severe. MR MOTSAMAI MR STANDER Is it the fact that statements were taken from these people that could be used later? MR MOTSAMAI Yes, statements were taken. MR STANDER Were these statements taken against their will? MR MOTSAMAI Yes. MR STANDER I understand that Mr Oliphant and Mr Makhubalo were later charged due their political activities and their leadership. MR MOTSAMAI That is true. MR STANDER And that as part of the evidence, some of these people - the members of this group, were used as State witnesses. MR MOTSAMAI That is true. MR STANDER I also understand that this group later refused to testify and as a result of which, some people were not charged and released. MR MOTSAMAI That is true. MR STANDER Mr Chairman, I will now proceed to the second occurrence to which Mr Motsamai referred, in fact the third one. CHAIRPERSON MR MOTSAMAI That is true. CHAIRPERSON And was it a passage that other people in the building had access to? MR MOTSAMAI That is true. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. MR STANDER Just one aspect around Violent Street. Was there - was it written in letters on the walls of this passage - Violent Street? MR MOTSAMAI No, it is written on the board and the board was pinned on the wall. MR STANDER Do you know why it was called like this? MR MOTSAMAI MR STANDER Did you ever enquire about who put up this sign? MR MOTSAMAI No, I never made enquiries because at that office, if you make a lot of enquiries, many things would happen to you. MR STANDER It seems that you were yourself afraid of this organisation for which you worked? MR MOTSAMAI Yes, I was afraid of that organisation, seriously, I was afraid. MR STANDER MR MOTSAMAI Yes, that is true. MR STANDER MR MOTSAMAI MR STANDER MR MOTSAMAI MR STANDER Tell me, who decided to petrol-bomb that particular house because one would expect that before you went to bomb a house, that you would enquire whether the person against whom this attack was aimed, would be there or not? MR MOTSAMAI MR STANDER MR MEMANI MR STANDER I gave the witness the opportunity to answer the question because I got the impression that he was unsure - him and his group, that they were unsure about this. Perhaps he could clear this up for us. MR MOTSAMAI ADV DE JAGER When you received an instruction to petrol-bomb a house, did you enquire whether there were any people staying in the house on that particular night? MR MOTSAMAI ADV DE JAGER For instance when you - I may take an example - when you petrol-bombed the missions house, were there any people sleeping in the house? MR MOTSAMAI Which mission house? You mean at Botshabelo? ADV DE JAGER Yes. MR MOTSAMAI ADV DE JAGER And suppose there would be a baby in the room and you throwing the petrol bomb into the room? MR MOTSAMAI CHAIRPERSON ADV DE JAGER MR MOTSAMAI ADV DE JAGER MR MEMANI Mr Chairman, I beg leave to say something here. It was not the intention of ...[intervention] ADV DE JAGER MR MEMANI But Mr Chairman, you are putting to him that he made a precaution to ensure that Winnie was not there and that was not the evidence. She was coincidentally not there. This is what ...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON The evidence was, they were told she was in Johannesburg. MR MEMANI But it was not a precaution taken, that is my objection. ADV DE JAGER MR MOTSAMAI MR STANDER MR MOTSAMAI MR STANDER CHAIRPERSON MR STANDER CHAIRPERSON MR STANDER MR MOTSAMAI I did not know as whether he was present in the house or not. MR STANDER MR MOTSAMAI Yes, that is true. MR STANDER MR MOTSAMAI CHAIRPERSON MR MOTSAMAI Yes, that is true. MR STANDER You also told us that after the house had been bombed, you heard someone, a woman crying - crying out. MR MOTSAMAI MR STANDER MR MOTSAMAI No. CHAIRPERSON MR MOTSAMAI I mean all members of the family. CHAIRPERSON MR MOTSAMAI Yes, that is true. MR STANDER Do you know what the reason for this was, why the whole family had to be attacked? MR MOTSAMAI In terms of the security, the family - the head of the family or the breadwinner influences other members of the family, that is why the whole family would be attacked - I mean in politics. MR STANDER CHAIRPERSON MR STANDER Thank you Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON COMMITTEE ADJOURNS ON RESUMPTION MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI (s.u.o.) CHAIRPERSON ...[inaudible] of consulting with your clients? MR STANDER Thank you Mr Chairman, I did have a chance to consult with them. CHAIRPERSON CROSS-EXAMINATION MR STANDER (cont) INTERPRETER MR MOTSAMAI I cannot estimate the damage as whether what was damaged. MR STANDER MR MOTSAMAI MR STANDER MR MOTSAMAI MR STANDER MR MOTSAMAI MR STANDER MR MOTSAMAI MR STANDER Tell me, is it true that there were other businessmen who were also sympathizers with this aim and for this reason also appeared in your files? MR MOTSAMAI May you try to clarify your question so that I can understand? MR STANDER The question is simply whether there were other businessmen who were also sympathizers in the sense of donating money, who appeared in the lists of the security police? MR MOTSAMAI They were there yes, though I forgot their names, who were helping the youth - that is COSAS, UDF - when they requested money to continue with their political activities. MR STANDER MR MOTSAMAI MR STANDER MR MOTSAMAI I will say he was in prison. MR STANDER MR MOTSAMAI I explained that this person who is Citi Mzuzwana, the time when he was there he was assaulted, then they were trying to recruit him so that he should help our security branch. He was rejecting that, then we received an instruction that we should go and attack the house and the car. About the incident of bombing the house, people would explain that. MR STANDER MR MOTSAMAI CHAIRPERSON What was he in imprisoned for? MR MOTSAMAI CHAIRPERSON So he was in detention, he was not serving a prison sentence, is that the position? MR MOTSAMAI Yes, he was in detention. CHAIRPERSON MR MOTSAMAI MR STANDER MR MOTSAMAI MR STANDER So those attempts by the security police could not have succeeded in any case, am I correct in saying this? MR MOTSAMAI Not at all. MR STANDER The home of Citi Mzuzwana and his vehicle were also later bombed, is this correct? MR MOTSAMAI Yes, that is true. MR STANDER MR MOTSAMAI MR STANDER Just tell me, am I correct in saying that the reason you ran away every time was specifically that those who had been harmed could not know who was responsible for the actions? MR MOTSAMAI That is correct. MR STANDER MR MOTSAMAI That is correct. MR STANDER MR MOTSAMAI That is correct, it is for the first time. MR STANDER CHAIRPERSON Is he also known as Zwelinzima? MR STANDER That is in fact so Mr Chairman. I believe the correct pronounciation is Zwelinzima. My learned friend wants to put to us the correct pronounciation. MR MEMANI MR STANDER I want to ask permission to address him as Matthews otherwise it might cause confusion. MR VISSER How does this witness know this Mr Chairman, with all due respect? CHAIRPERSON From the files the security police keep. Do you know? MR MOTSAMAI You mean I know what is happening about him? MR STANDER The question is, do you know that this person has been totally disabled for any kind of work? MR MOTSAMAI MR STANDER MR MOTSAMAI MR STANDER Is it a Mr Mogashani, do you remember? MR MOTSAMAI MR STANDER MR MOTSAMAI The reason which made him to commit suicide was because of this Mzuzwana case, that he shot Mzuzwana with a gun. MR STANDER I understand that there was - a claim was made against the South African police for an amount of R20.000,00 in compensation. Do you know anything about this? MR MOTSAMAI I heard about that. MR STANDER Just before the so-called fatal shot was fired, had he been held down by two other policemen? MR MOTSAMAI You mean two policemen who shot? MR STANDER Two policemen had been holding him by his arms when the third one, Mr Mogashani shot him. MR MOTSAMAI Can you make you question clear so that I should understand? CHAIRPERSON Was he being held by two policemen when he was shot? MR MOTSAMAI Yes, he was trying to get off them but two policemen were holding him. MR STANDER Mr Motsamai tell me, do you know a person called Maria Manchwe? MR MOTSAMAI I know her. MR STANDER Is it a fact that this person was the tea maker at the offices of the security police? MR MOTSAMAI MR STANDER Am I correct in saying that her house was also bombed with petrol bombs? MR MOTSAMAI MR STANDER You are not asking for amnesty regarding this incident? MR MOTSAMAI MR STANDER But I understand that this woman had no political affiliation at all. MR MOTSAMAI MR STANDER MR MOTSAMAI MR STANDER MR MOTSAMAI MR STANDER Was your intention in bombarding this house to destroy the entire house? MR MOTSAMAI When we went there to attack, when the petrol bomb hit - when the house was enflamed, it may happen - it is possible that house may burn down. MR STANDER Was it the intention to destroy the whole house? MR MOTSAMAI I would say it was the intention to destroy the whole house. MR STANDER Am I also correct in saying that you acted in such a way that the identity of yourselves would be completely hidden, to such an extent that the person who suffered damages was completely unable to identify the persons or person who had caused the damage? MR MOTSAMAI MR STANDER Is it also correct when I say that it would probably be the first occasion where the person would in fact have become aware of who was responsible for the damage to the house? MR MOTSAMAI MR STANDER Was it also part of your instructions to hide your identities as far as possible? MR MOTSAMAI That is correct. ADV DE JAGER Mr Stander, which of your clients is involved in this incident? MR STANDER MR MOTSAMAI Many times under the Internal Security Act. MR STANDER And according to you the reason was his involvement in COSAS? MR MOTSAMAI That is correct, he was the Chairperson of COSAS in the Free State. Again he was a member of the National Executive Committee. MR STANDER MR MOTSAMAI MR STANDER Do you know of any occasion on which shots were fired at him? MR MOTSAMAI MR STANDER Tell me please, was he assaulted in the same way as the way you described it this morning? MR MOTSAMAI That is true. MR STANDER MR MOTSAMAI MR STANDER MR MOTSAMAI The one I know he was at the hearse, he was in the hearse. MR STANDER JUDGE NGOEPE Mr interpreter, does he not say: "it is a hearsay", not has - hearsay. INTERPRETER MR MOTSAMAI That is a hearsay - I heard that from somebody else. MR STANDER From whom did you hear this? MR MOTSAMAI I learnt that from Sergeant Mamome. MR STANDER MR MOTSAMAI MR STANDER MR MOTSAMAI That is true. MR STANDER MR MOTSAMAI That is correct. MR STANDER I understand that Mr Norman Chani was a qualified teacher at that stage. MR MOTSAMAI That is correct. MR STANDER But that he was also a member of the National Education Union of South Africa? MR MOTSAMAI That is correct. MR STANDER I have been instructed that he was arrested one night for distributing pamphlets, do you know anything about this? MR MOTSAMAI That is correct. MR STANDER Is it true that his person on several occasions had been arrested, intimidated, assaulted and then released again, only to be re-arrested within a few days? MR MOTSAMAI That is correct. MR STANDER I understand that as a result of these detentions he later lost his job, in other words that he was dismissed as a teacher. Do you know about this? MR MOTSAMAI That is correct. MR STANDER Was this part of the strategy? MR MOTSAMAI CHAIRPERSON MR MOTSAMAI That they should be against Norman Chani and then to influence the students again that he is in love with the students where he was teaching. JUDGE NGOEPE There was an informer in the school? MR MOTSAMAI No, the informer came from Vulamasango school. He was a member of COSAS or she was a member of COSAS. He or she was influenced so that he should go to that school where Norman Chani was teaching - that Mr Norman Chani was in love with other students at that school. MR STANDER I will now move to item 14 and this is the attempted murder on Makhubalo. MR MOTSAMAI That is correct. MR STANDER MR MOTSAMAI We were shooting but no one bullet was able to hit the target - that is him. MR STANDER JUDGE NGOEPE MR STANDER JUDGE NGOEPE ADV DE JAGER JUDGE NGOEPE CHAIRPERSON But he agreed they did. They question that was put to him was it sounded as if you received an instruction to kill him and the applicant agreed that that was correct. JUDGE NGOEPE MR STANDER MR MOTSAMAI That is correct. MR STANDER MR MOTSAMAI They were police and then they have minds and then I had a mind. When we started to chase him there were no people. When they shot for the first time - that is Mamome, people converged to come to the scene where we were chasing Mr Makhubalo. It was now difficult at that time, that when they were shooting they would ask themselves as whether - where the bullet would go. MR STANDER When the shots were fired at him, was it the intention of those shots to kill this person, or was it simply aimed at injuring him so that he could be arrested? JUDGE NGOEPE MR STANDER JUDGE NGOEPE What you want him to tell us whether that person who shot the firearm, whether that person intended to kill that person, is that the answer you want? Well you can ask him that question if you that it has got any evidential value. MR STANDER The reason for this question, with respect is whether anyone - it sounds to me as if he was under orders from Mr Mamome and whether an order had been instructed to shoot this person if he tried to escape and this is the reason for my question. May I continue? ADV DE JAGER Maybe I can help. Are you trying to ascertain whether there had been shot to arrest the person or did it not matter, was the intention of the shooting to kill him? You want to distinguish between unnecessary violence in order to make an arrest or the intention to kill? MR MEMANI You see Mr Chairman, the instructions on the evidence in chief was that they should bring him to the police station and if he runs away, they should kill him. This is how I understood the evidence in chief. CHAIRPERSON MR MEMANI MR STANDER It is a fact that the witness had already confirmed this in answer to a question you put to him. The intention of my question is to see what the instruction was because if it was simply to injure the person so that he could be arrested, then it would have been a completely different intention than to kill him. JUDGE NGOEPE MR MOTSAMAI The instructions was that Oupa Makhubalo should be brought to the office so that he should be tortured there under that case or he must be shot - there was a reason. JUDGE NGOEPE MR MOTSAMAI JUDGE NGOEPE Can I ask you in this way, were you to shoot him for the purpose of affecting the arrest, in other words to injure him so that you should arrest him or in shooting him were you to actually kill him - shoot him for the purpose of killing him? MR MOTSAMAI It was with the intention to shoot to kill. JUDGE NGOEPE There you are Mr Stander. MR STANDER Thank you Mr Chairman. Just tell me why was it so urgent? I understand from the evidence that Mr Mamome came to you in some haste. Why was it so urgent to do this quickly? MR MOTSAMAI That was the instruction from Shaw because the informer have already phoned to them and he was called so that he must know that person was in a certain area, that is why he had to hurry to our place. CHAIRPERSON When was this young man killed, how long before? MR MOTSAMAI CHAIRPERSON No, how long was it, was it on the same day or the day before the shooting of - you were ordered to go and find Oupa Makhubalo? MR MOTSAMAI CHAIRPERSON That was days after the shooting of the informer - I think his name was Kozi. MR MOTSAMAI He was killed by the students who were members of COSAS. MR MEMANI I think the witness added that she was not shot at. MR STANDER Do you know anyone called Jim - Geoffrey Mabulo? MR MOTSAMAI Jeff? MR STANDER Jeff? MR MOTSAMAI Yes, I know him. MR STANDER Unfortunately, and I apologize for this, item 13 on my list is spelt as Jeff Malulo, it should be Jeff Mabulo. Is it correct that this person was also connected with Mr George Musi for whom an application had been made? MR MOTSAMAI Yes, but I only heard that afterwards or later on. MR STANDER MR MOTSAMAI That is true. CHAIRPERSON In what sense was he a victim? MR MOTSAMAI MR STANDER Is it also true that he never agreed to this? MR MOTSAMAI That is true. MR STANDER One last aspect, was Mr Shadrack Oliphant ever a police informer? MR MOTSAMAI No, Sir. MR STANDER NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR STANDER ADV DE JAGER Mr Stander, this last person that you mentioned Jeff Mabulo, on which grounds must we recommend him as a victim? MR STANDER Mr Chairman with respect, if I can refer you to the Act. ADV DE JAGER MR STANDER ADV DE JAGER If you have further evidence that this person had suffered loss in some way or another ...[intervention] MR STANDER On page - volume B, page 116, there is a statement by Geoffrey Mabulo. It was taken down in the investigation - in the inquest into the death of Mr Mabulo. I think the witness also added that this person had been detained and attempts had been made to persuade him to become an informer, a so-called informer. Is it necessary to address you anymore about this? ADV DE JAGER MR STANDER I will try by means of evidence to indicate - perhaps you can give an opportunity ...[intervention[ ADV DE JAGER MR MEMANI ADV DE JAGER FURTHER CROSS-EXAMINATION STANDER May I just put one or two questions to this witness which may be of some help to us? May I continue? MR MOTSAMAI MR STANDER MR MOTSAMAI MR STANDER Thank you, no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR STANDER CHAIRPERSON Have you finished? MR STANDER CHAIRPERSON Anybody else ...[inaudible] MR BRINK No thank you, Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON As people may have been waiting here since a quarter to 2, I propose to take a very short adjournment now and we may go on for a little after 4. We will take an adjournment of a few minutes now. COMMITTEE ADJOURNS ON RESUMPTION MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI (s.u.o.) FURTHER CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR STANDER Mr Chairman with your permission, I neglected to put questions about a victim in the person of Mr Molifi, I just want to put a few questions concerning him. Mr Motsamai, do you know Mr Molifi? MR MOTSAMAI Yes, that is correct. MR STANDER This is Serame Shadrack Molifi? MR MOTSAMAI That is correct. MR STANDER This is item 12 on my list. Tell me is it correct that he was being constantly observed by the security police? MR MOTSAMAI You mean that is item 12? MR STANDER ADV DE JAGER CHAIRPERSON MR MEMANI JUDGE NGOEPE MR MOTSAMAI That is number 21 on the list. MR STANDER Is it true that this person also was constantly - kept under constant observation by the security police? MR MOTSAMAI That is correct. MR STANDER MR MOTSAMAI That is correct. MR STANDER Due to his political activities? MR MOTSAMAI That is correct, he was a member of the PAC and APLA and task force. MR STANDER I also understand that his movements were constantly monitored by people, including yourself? MR MOTSAMAI That is correct. MR STANDER To such an extent that at one stage he was unable to lead a private life? MR MOTSAMAI That is correct. MR STANDER Thank you Mr Chairman. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR STANDER MR VISSER Mr Chairman, you will recall that Mr Ngo applied for two incidents - similar incidents. The one referred to took place in Bloemfontein and the other one took place in Botshabelo. If I may say Mr Chairman, our understanding from what we have heard from Mr Stander, appears to be that the people that he represents are the people who were arrested by the South African defence force while they attempted to cross the border of Lesotho and that would appear to us or seem to us to coincide with a group that Mr Ngo refers to as the group that was assaulted and tortured at Bloemfontein. My question is this Mr Chairman, can Mr Memani tell this Committee whether his paragraph 13 also coincides with that group that Mr Ngo referred to and that my learned friend Mr Stander referred to, because you see Mr Chairman that clarification will be of great assistance to us in our consultations tonight. CHAIRPERSON But I understood that paragraph 13 was to cover all the assaults and tortures, including that group and all the other persons he has mentioned. Is that not so Mr Memani? MR MEMANI CHAIRPERSON All the individuals he has mentioned or the two or three on some occasions and that one group that came from the Lesotho border, is that so? MR MEMANI That is correct Sir. MR VISSER Thank you Mr Chairman, we will then accept it that way and later when the time arrives, we will put to Mr Motsamai that he has not applied for amnesty for these people but that is not what where we will commence. CROSS -EXAMINATION BY MR VISSER Mr Memani - Mr MR MOTSAMAI MR VISSER MR MOTSAMAI MR VISSER You signed your original application for Mr Motsamai, on the 8th of November 1996, that is last year - do you remember that? MR MOTSAMAI That is correct. MR VISSER Will you agree with me if I put it you that in that application dated the 8th of November, you applied for one incident for amnesty? MR MOTSAMAI MR VISSER Thereafter we heard of further documents that became available, one of which was handed up as Exhibit P28. That was a handwritten document by you consisting of three handwritten pages, can you remember that? MR MOTSAMAI I remember that, those are the things which were related to my application for amnesty. MR VISSER Thereafter we heard of another three pages which went missing in Cape Town, of which we received two pages, do you remember that? MR MOTSAMAI That is correct. I was informed by the Truth Commission Staff that they were not able to retrieve other pages because there was no proper filing system in Cape Town. MR VISSER Mr Motsamai, is it correct that you were then allowed by this Committee to fill out a new application for amnesty and that you signed it on the 5th of June of this year? MR MOTSAMAI MR VISSER Mr Motsamai, is it correct that you were allowed to complete a fresh form for application for amnesty by this Committee and that you completed such a form as it is now in bundle A, page 143 to page 145? MR MEMANI MR MOTSAMAI This page, it seems as if it is a page which went with the first application forms - this one. MR VISSER Mr Motsamai, the question is simply this - do you agree that you filled out and signed a new application form on the 5th of June 1997? MR MOTSAMAI No. MR VISSER Will you please turn to page 145 of bundle A in front of you. Look at the bottom of that page please. Do you see your signature there? MR MOTSAMAI Yes, I see my signature. MR VISSER Do you see the date there, the 5th of June 1997 and Bloemfontein? MR MOTSAMAI I see that, yes. MR VISSER MR MOTSAMAI MR VISSER And attached to that application form was Annexure A from page 146 to 148? JUDGE NGOEPE MR VISSER Mr Motsamai, was what you said in all those documents which I put to you just now, the truth? MR MOTSAMAI That is the truth. MR VISSER MR MOTSAMAI MR VISSER I see. Did you go to Pretoria in March this year? MR MOTSAMAI That is correct. MR VISSER What did you go and do there? MR MOTSAMAI I would explain to the Committee, it is this way. Sergeant Mamome ...[intervention] MR VISSER MR MEMANI CHAIRPERSON You asked why he went there Mr Visser. MR VISSER I withdraw Mr Chairman. MR MEMANI You may proceed. MR MOTSAMAI I was taken by force or by deception to make a statement in Pretoria. MR VISSER Who forced you? MR MOTSAMAI He used tricks, that is Sergeant Mamome, Lieutenant Erasmus who is now Superintendent Erasmus. MR VISSER What were the tricks they used? MR MOTSAMAI He made means that we should go - we left here with a Ford Husky. All of us - all of those people I mentioned were in that husky. The person who collected us from our homes is Sergeant Mamome. He knew where we were going and who is that lawyer but he denied to tell us - to explain to us who is that lawyer. CHAIRPERSON MR VISSER Yes, Mr Wagner all right? Mr Wagner explained to you that you were there because of Mr Ngo. MR MOTSAMAI He himself said again that there are cases which he worked of members of the security branch where people ...[intervention] JUDGE NGOEPE Can you slow down please and sorry, remember people must interpret Mr Motsamai. When I interrupted you, you were saying that you say that there are cases - there were other cases in which - go on. MR MOTSAMAI Where he himself, he was representing members of the security branch - they left the office with one voice and when they appeared in court there would be people who would take their own directions. I kept quiet that the thing which I thought it home is now starting to surface, I had to use my mind as a member of the security branch so that I should be out of this thing. He informed us that he will take all our statements, one by one and then all things which we should say should be against what Ngo is going to say. I kept quiet all the time when others were talking and all of them were denying this thing. He himself asked me directly as to whether: "why are you so quiet"? I said to him: "I understand about this case which we are discussing but according to me, I want that each and everyone should speak for himself in the Truth Commission". Then I made my statement, then he asked me questions and then I was answering those questions, then all of us made statements before we took an oath. He came again - again before that he said he has been given instructions by the person on his right hand side - he phoned him - he was not present, he said he went for duty somewhere then he phoned him that we should be united. That Captain, he went with us and looked for a stamp. We went downstairs, he found a stamp for an oath in that building. He went with us in a certain room. They were signed. He took them and then he signed them because he was there looking, he signed them - that is not an oath, even the way he was signing he was in a hurry. MR VISSER Are you quite finished? MR MOTSAMAI MR VISSER What were the tricks that you referred to that Coetzee and Mamome played? MR MOTSAMAI MR VISSER MR MOTSAMAI Why should I tell them? MR VISSER MR MOTSAMAI MR VISSER MR MOTSAMAI MR VISSER How could you expect that that lawyer would apply for you for amnesty if you had told nobody that you applied for amnesty? MR MOTSAMAI MR VISSER MR MOTSAMAI Where? MR VISSER MR MOTSAMAI Mr Mpshe helped me. MR VISSER So you did apply for legal representation? MR MOTSAMAI But in your request there is one which was made by you. The person next to the left hand side said we should leave the spaces then he know what he was going to do. MR VISSER MR MOTSAMAI That is true I told them, then they said they are going to prepare for me but they took time before they responded, up until the day when we started with the hearing, that is where Mr Mpshe helped me. MR VISSER MR MOTSAMAI I said - should I repeat what I said? MR VISSER MR MOTSAMAI MR VISSER Okay. Did you ever receive a notification of the application of Mr Ngo for amnesty? Was that ever served on you? MR MOTSAMAI MR VISSER Did you receive that over the week-end of the 10th to the 14th of March? MR MOTSAMAI They sent it to me. MR VISSER MR MOTSAMAI I think that is so. That is correct. MR VISSER And after that week of the 10th to the 14th of March, you went to see Mr Wagner in Pretoria, am I correct? In fact on the 18th of March. MR MOTSAMAI MR VISSER MR MOTSAMAI MR VISSER In the statement which you made Mr Motsamai, did you tell the truth - the statement you just told us just now that you made under oath? MR MOTSAMAI You mean the statement I made to you, you mean the statement I made in your office? MR VISSER MR MOTSAMAI I explained that I made the statement but for the first time when I met here, I hurried and informed Mr Mpshe that - I said to him: "Mr Mpshe, I made a statement under certain - these conditions there. That is not a true statement because I would come and tell the correct statements to the Truth Commission. MR VISSER Did you think you were making a statement for an application for amnesty? MR MOTSAMAI Let me page through and look first. MR MEMANI MR VISSER I wish to state Mr Chairman, that it lies ill in the mouth of Mr Memani to criticize me. MR MOTSAMAI MR VISSER MR MOTSAMAI Which bundle - where is bundle B? CHAIRPERSON Has he got it? MR VISSER MR MOTSAMAI MR BRINK MR MEMANI Mr Chairman, I stated from the first day that I expect it to be the TRC which provides copies for witnesses who are going to sit there. Everybody can sit there including victims which is not our function to provide these things, these things are provided by the TRC and we ...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON MR MEMANI CHAIRPERSON MR MEMANI JUDGE NGOEPE MR VISSER JUDGE NGOEPE MR BRINK JUDGE NGOEPE CHAIRPERSON MR VISSER CHAIRPERSON And the relevant pages of bundle A are from page 140 to 148. MR MEMANI ADV DE JAGER Mr Memani, have you got a copy of the whole record and has your attorney got a copy of the whole record? MR MEMANI We received one copy, he made a copy for himself. ADV DE JAGER MR MEMANI Mr Chairman, ...[intervention] ADV DE JAGER MR MEMANI CHAIRPERSON I agree with you entirely. Anybody calling a witness who wants him to refer to documents should have copies of those documents available and anyone wanting to cross-examine a witness and put documents to him in the course of cross-examination should in my view, endeavour to have a copy of the document available. MR MEMANI But now in the case of ...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON I do not propose to get these voluminous papers duplicated now in Bloemfontein, Mr Memani because some victim might possibly want to look at it. If the victims are going to be referred by their representative, he can arrange to have copies made of those documents. If you want to cross-examine on some other document, you could get copies made and have them available. MR MEMANI CHAIRPERSON Yes, Mr Visser can make a copy of these three pages or cause a copy to be made overnight. MR VISSER CHAIRPERSON COMMITTEE ADJOURNS