amntrans AMNESTY HEARING 1997-09-04 BLOEMFONTEIN 4 MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO 2422/96 https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=54619&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/bloem/bloem4_ngo2.htm ON RESUMPTION ON 4 SEPTEMBER 1997 MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO (s.u.o.) MR STANDER CHAIRPERSON MR STANDER CHAIRPERSON MR STANDER CHAIRPERSON CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR DU PLESSIS (cont) MR NGO Yes, I do. MR MEMANI And it would appear to me that if it is their attitude, it would be sufficient for them simply to put it to him that they deny that they were involved and not to continue and suggest for instance that he was not a member of the security branch, that he was not stationed at Mamelodi and so on. CHAIRPERSON MR MEMANI For instance, it has been suggested that he was not at whatever place, Mamelodi and one of them needs to show through cross-examining them that their instructions on which he is discredited are wrong or false or improbable, now you loose that opportunity. CHAIRPERSON I understood they will be available. JUDGE NGOEPE MR MEMANI Yes Mr Chair, my concern is then that if they are allowed to cross-examine and they do not testify, do you completely disregard the statements that we put and the answers that emanated as a result of that cross-examination? CHAIRPERSON No, you evaluate the evidence of the applicant, as you do in any other legal proceedings. MR DU PLESSIS Mr Chairman, may I add here ...[intervention] ADV DE JAGER MR DU PLESSIS CHAIRPERSON I understood from Mr Visser where he put things, that his witnesses have put up affidavits - they might not be called to repeat all the evidence but they would be available for cross-examination if required. MR VISSER CHAIRPERSON What is your difficulty, Mr Memani? JUDGE NGOEPE Has it been solved? MR MEMANI That is correct Sir. MR DU PLESSIS Thank you Mr Chairman, may I proceed? I want to put to you that Captain Bokaba will come and testify that he always used during that time, from 1986 onwards, a yellow Colt Gallant motor vehicle with private registration numbers which belonged to the South African police but which could not be identified as a police vehicle. What do you have to say to that? INTERPRETER MR NGO MR DU PLESSIS Well I put it to you that he will deny that. Mr Ngo, do you want to say something about that? MR NGO No, Sir. MR DU PLESSIS Mr Ngo, ...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON MR NGO MR DU PLESSIS Mr Ngo, do you know at all who was in command of the security branch operations in Attridgeville? MR NGO No, I was never taken there. MR DU PLESSIS Well, I put it to you that the evidence will be that is was Lieutenant Henning Brandt in Attridgeville. And then, have you ever heard of Warrant Officer Johan van Wyk? MR NGO No. MR DU PLESSIS And of Warrant Officer Hlongwane? MR NGO No, I never heard of him. MR DU PLESSIS You see Mr Ngo, during the period that you testify you were part of the security branch in Mamelodi, Warrant Officer Johan van Wyk, Warrant Officer Hlongwane and Captain Bokaba and later on, Danny Selahla worked directly under Captain Hechter in Mamelodi as the security branch operation in Mamelodi, I put that to you. That will be the evidence of Colonel Loots. MR NGO MR DU PLESSIS Yes you see Mr Ngo, what I find strange and I want you just to explain this to us, is although your evidence is that you were for more than two years, part of the security branch operations in Mamelodi, you only knew of Hendrik Bokaba and Danny Selahla. MR MEMANI Mr Chairman, no basis has been laid for suggesting that in order for it to be true that you were posted at the security branch you would have had to know Captain Hech ...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON The cross-examination is eliciting that, we will then decide on the value to be given to it. MR MEMANI CHAIRPERSON MR MEMANI My objection for instance Mr Chairman, is not - it has not been suggested where they worked and why ...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON MR MEMANI CHAIRPERSON Carry on Mr du Plessis. MR DU PLESSIS Thank you Mr Chairman. Mr Ngo, do you want me to repeat the question? MR NGO Yes, may you repeat it Sir. MR DU PLESSIS Can you explain to us Mr Ngo, where you were part of the security branch operations in Mamelodi for more than two years, I find it strange that you only know of Bokaba and Selahla and you do not know any of the other people who were involved in the security branch operations in Mamelodi, such as Warrant Officer van Wyk, Warrant Officer Hlongwane and Captain Hechter. Can you explain that to us? JUDGE NGOEPE ...[inaudible] MR DU PLESSIS Pardon? JUDGE NGOEPE ...[inaudible] MR DU PLESSIS Yes, sorry - apart from Loots. MR NGO MR DU PLESSIS Where did you meet Danny Selahla for the first time? MR NGO I saw him many times in barracks because he was accommodated there, even in the office at Compol - he was working there at that time. MR DU PLESSIS As I understand - do I understand you correctly, he lived in the same barracks as you did and Bokaba did? MR NGO No, he used to sleep there but he was staying in the location or township. MR DU PLESSIS Yes. You see, on page 53 of bundle B, there is an affidavit of Danny Selahla and I want to refer you to paragraph 2 thereof. Page 53, bundle 2 - bundle B. Paragraph 2 thereof Mr Ngo says "I learnt to know the applicant in this matter, Ngo, at the Mamelodi police barracks by seeing him there as I accompanied Hendrik Bokaba who resided at the premises". Now, that seems to accord with the evidence - with your evidence that you saw him with Bokaba, is that correct? MR NGO MR DU PLESSIS MR NGO MR DU PLESSIS Now Mr Ngo, I just want to know from you, are you saying - do I understand you correctly, are you saying that what Danny Selahla is saying here, that he met you when he accompanied Hendrik Bokaba when they went to the police barracks, that that is wrong? MR NGO CHAIRPERSON Where did you meet him? MR NGO When I returned - where Danny Selahla showed me where he was staying at the barracks, that is where we met. MR DU PLESSIS ADV DE JAGER Mr du Plessis, did Danny live at the barracks? MR DU PLESSIS He confirmed that Mr Chairman, now in evidence after the question of his Lordship, Mr Justice Wilson. CHAIRPERSON He said that he stayed in the - slept in the barracks sometimes but he lived in the location. MR DU PLESSIS Yes, well he slept in the barracks but that was the exact point that I wanted to make, that he slept in the barracks and that he met him through Bokaba. MR NGO That is not true, those are the people I knew because I was working with them. JUDGE NGOEPE MR NGO JUDGE NGOEPE But the question goes further to say that, on your evidence you were there for three - two years and for a period of - for you to have been there for a period of two years, you surely would have known, even if you did not take part in operations with any other person, took part in operations with any other person, you surely would have at least known a few other names over a period of two years. What do you say to that? MR NGO MR DU PLESSIS Thank you Mr Chairman. Now, I want to put to you further that Danny Selahla on page 53, says the following "I was never in the same team at work with the applicant as he alleges during 1982 and 1988, I never worked with the applicant at the security branch and he was never a member of the security branch of Compol, Pretoria in 1987 during my employment there". What do you say to that? MR NGO MR DU PLESSIS All right. Now Mr Ngo, before you joined the South African police force, do I understand the evidence correct, you acted as an informer for the security police in Bloemfontein? MR NGO That is so. MR DU PLESSIS For how long was that? MR NGO From 1983. MR DU PLESSIS And as I understand your evidence correctly, you implicated - sorry, let me ask you this, you only acted as an informer, is that right? MR NGO MR DU PLESSIS Lieutenant Swan, Erasmus Tsoametsi, Mamome, Motsamai, Mtyala, Killian, Sefatsa Colonel Coetzee, Stevenson etc. Were they all part of the security branch in Bloemfontein, these people who are listed here as the implicated persons? MR NGO That is so Sir. CHAIRPERSON Have you had a chance of reading the list? The list is two columns? MR DU PLESSIS Yes Mr Chairman, my question related to - actually to the left column. Lets just look at ...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON MR DU PLESSIS Yes. I beg your pardon Mr Chairman, thank you. MR MEMANI MR DU PLESSIS MR VISSER Mr Chairman, and the same goes for the last column - the third name Mimiswa is supposed to read Miningwa. That was also corrected. MR DU PLESSIS MR MEMANI Mr Chairman, also the third - the fourth name from the top from Mr Shaw is Warrant Officer Mamome and not Mamome. MR NGO What is the question all about in that section? MR DU PLESSIS Can I ask you this, can you tell us is there anybody you do not identify who was part of the Bloemfontein security branch in the left-hand column. Is there any name that you cannot identify - that you do not know? MR NGO MR MEMANI Mr Chair, I think the Koka is the person who was referred to as Koch. MR NGO MR DU PLESSIS Yes, that is Shaw. MR NGO Lieutenant Shaw? MR DU PLESSIS Yes. MR NGO I know Shaw. MR DU PLESSIS Take your time Mr Ngo, I want you to make 100% sure who was not part of the security branch. MR NGO No English translation. MR MEMANI Mr Chair, what is the relevance of the question to the case of the ...[intervention] MR NGO No English translation. MR MEMANI One second, Mr Ngo. What is the relevance of this question to the case we are expecting to hear from Bokaba, Selahla and Loots? CHAIRPERSON MR MEMANI As the Chair pleases. MR DU PLESSIS Thank you Mr Chairman. Are there any other names in the left-hand column that were not part of the security branch Mr Ngo? MR NGO And Captain Tsomela. MR DU PLESSIS MR NGO Those are the ones I could identify. CHAIRPERSON MR NGO Not in Brandfort but in Ladybrand. CHAIRPERSON Who were they? MR NGO ...[inaudible] Constable Jantjie and Warrant Officer Sefatsa. MR DU PLESSIS Does that complete the list Mr Ngo? Can we go over to the right-hand side? MR NGO Yes, Sir. MR DU PLESSIS MR NGO He was in Botshabelo, we used to meet when we were there to assault people in the security unit of Botshabelo. MR DU PLESSIS MR NGO Also Mr Smith or Sergeant Smith. MR DU PLESSIS And Thula? MR NGO He was at Botshabelo. MR DU PLESSIS Was Smith in Bloemfontein? Botshabelo? MR NGO No, in Botshabelo. MR DU PLESSIS Right. And Senyane? MR NGO He was in Botshabelo - Senyane. MR DU PLESSIS Lesale? MR NGO Bloemfontein. MR MEMANI Mr Chairman, there might be a misunderstanding. I heard the witness to be saying Lesale instead of Senyane when he was asked the question about Senyane. MR DU PLESSIS He has already answered Senyane, Mr Chairman. Was Senyane in Botshabelo? MR NGO Yes, Samuel Senyane was in Botshabelo. MR DU PLESSIS And Lesale? MR NGO In Bloemfontein. MR DU PLESSIS And Bester? MR NGO He was stationed here in Bloemfontein but we were working together in Brandfort. MR DU PLESSIS MR NGO He was stationed here in Bloemfontein but we were working together in Brandfort. MR DU PLESSIS All right. And then Sergeant Mokalake? MR NGO Sergeant Mokalake, he was a member of "Bewaarder". MR DU PLESSIS So he was not part of the security branch? And then Warrant Officer Bester? MR NGO Bester was a member of security branch. MR DU PLESSIS In Bloemfontein? MR NGO He was working in Botshabelo but he was supposed to report here in Bloemfontein but we used to go together in Brandfort. At times he used to go to Bloemspruit to make some investigations. ADV DE JAGER There seems to be a duplication there about Bester. MR DU PLESSIS Oh yes, I see - thank you very much. All right, and then Liebenberg is the last one I want to ask you about? MR NGO He was a soldier. MR DU PLESSIS Right. Now Mr Ngo, you see what I find strange of this is exactly what his Lordship, Mr Justice Wilson pointed out just now, is that when you were simply an informer of the security branch in Bloemfontein, you knew these many people who were part of the security branch in Bloemfontein but when you were part of the security branch operations in Mamelodi in Pretoria, you got to know in a period of more than two years, you only got to know the three last names mentioned in the second column, namely Bokaba, Selahla and Loots. Can you explain to us how does it come - how does it happen that when you were an informer in Bloemfontein, you know such a lot of security branch people but when you were really part of the security branch and working for them in Mamelodi, you only got to know three - explain that to us. MR NGO The question is when did I say - in 1983 when I was an informer, I already knew those people, we have said so. MR DU PLESSIS Are you saying that you met these security branch people before you became an informer or what are you saying? MR NGO MR DU PLESSIS ADV DE JAGER He said since 1983. MR DU PLESSIS Yes, Mr Chairman. ADV DE JAGER ...[inaudible] INTERPRETER ADV DE JAGER ...[inaudible] before he went to college. MR DU PLESSIS Yes, let me just get that right. For how long were you an informer in Bloemfontein, for two years? MR NGO I started in 1983. MR DU PLESSIS CHAIRPERSON MR DU PLESSIS Yes. CHAIRPERSON Which could well mean he saw them in the office, somebody said who they were. MR DU PLESSIS MR VISSER Mr Chairman, I do not appear for Mr Ngo but in fairness to the witness, I think what Mr du Plessis does not know, is that this witness was also a student constable in Bloemfontein from March and till the 19th of June when he was transferred to Ladybrand and that period has not been included in the question of Mr du Plessis. MR DU PLESSIS Where you a student constable in the security branch? MR NGO That is so, Sir. MR DU PLESSIS So when were you in the security branch in Bloemfontein? For what period? In what capacities did you act in the security branch in Bloemfontein? MR NGO MR DU PLESSIS Do I understand you correctly, in 1985 you joined the security branch of Bloemfontein before you went to Ladybrand. For how long were you part of that security branch? MR VISSER MR MEMANI Mr Chairman, subject to the rider that ...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON MR VISSER That is in fact correct, Mr Chairman and we believe, as from August 1985 until the end of the year. MR MEMANI Also Mr Chairman, the witness - the applicant himself does not make a distinction as to when he ceased to be an informer and when he became a member of the security branch. The general tenor of his evidence is that he was recruited as an informer and he always worked with the security branch. MR DU PLESSIS MR NGO JUDGE NGOEPE MR DU PLESSIS Now Mr Ngo, can you explain to us exactly how a security branch operation worked when you wanted to petrol bomb a house or you got instructions to petrol bomb a house. Explain to us exactly how did it come about, how did you get your instructions, how did you prepare usually for that and exactly how was the operation done, in general terms. MR NGO Concerning the houses that we have bombed in Mamelodi? MR DU PLESSIS MR DU PLESSIS MR NGO CHAIRPERSON MR NGO MR DU PLESSIS CHAIRPERSON He has told us that when they went and reported to Captain Loots, he got instructions from Captain Loots. MR DU PLESSIS You have told us that you received instructions from Captain Loots, was there nobody else that you ever received instructions from? MR NGO MR DU PLESSIS And how were the instructions given, personally, did you go to him, did he tell it to you, did he telephone you, did he give it in writing, was it orally? Explain that to us please. MR NGO We went to him when Dannyboy was explaining to him. It was our duty that if we have gathered some information about the conditions in Mamelodi, we were supposed to go and brief him. Hendrik Bokaba used to brief him with the political events in Mamelodi. According to his understanding he will give us instructions that we should go back and bomb those houses. ADV DE JAGER MR NGO That is so Sir. ADV DE JAGER Could you tell us on which floor for instance or where this office of Loots was? MR NGO CHAIRPERSON Why are there security guards on duty at the building Compol, did you have to produce identification to get in? MR NGO Yes, there was a guy who looks like a receptionist who used to work in the main entrance. He knew us very well because we used to come there frequently. MR DU PLESSIS And what kind of identification did you have to produce? MR NGO MR DU PLESSIS Can you remember how many floors there were in the Compol building? MR NGO MR DU PLESSIS Can you remember anything about the ground floor of the Compol building, any outstanding feature of the ground-floor of the Compol building? MR MEMANI CHAIRPERSON MR DU PLESSIS Thank you Mr Chairman. Can you remember any outstanding feature on the ground-floor of the Compol building? MR NGO MR DU PLESSIS All right. Now Mr Ngo, did Captain Loots ever tell you ...[intervention] ADV DE JAGER MR DU PLESSIS That is correct Mr Chairman, yes. MR DU PLESSIS Now Mr Ngo, did Captain Loots ever tell you exactly - when he gave instructions exactly what the reason was for a specific attack, did he give you any reasons or did he just give you the order? MR MEMANI Mr Chair, the question has been answered, the second bombing took place because the neighbour organised a protest march against the first bombing. It has been said time and again. CHAIRPERSON Carry on. Mr du Plessis. MR DU PLESSIS Thank you Mr Chairman. Should I repeat the question? MR NGO Yes, Sir. MR DU PLESSIS When Captain Loots gave you orders, did he ever explain to you the reason of the orders, why did you have to target a specific victim or a house? MR NGO CHAIRPERSON MR NGO ...[inaudible] We were given so many instructions. We were requested just to go to the township to see the political activities and if there is a suspect who is in that area, we are supposed to arrest so that we could question and send him to Mr Loots. If we knew how good that person is in politics - where is he going afterwards to do some observations. There were so many instructions. All the active members in politics, we were supposed to know exactly what is happening with him, his contact friends and so on. MR DU PLESSIS Can you just tell us during that time in Mamelodi, which organisations were there that caused all the problems? Can you remember? MR NGO There were so many organisations, there was UDF and Mamelodi Organisation, even COSAS, there were members of Trade Unions and Civics, there were so many. MR DU PLESSIS MR NGO Those are the ones I used to know because I used to visit them a lot, I was trained to get information from those organisations. MR DU PLESSIS Mr Ngo, can you turn to page 10 of bundle A please? Right, now that is your amnesty application regarding the killing of Mr Venter, I just want to ask you a few questions about this. Can you remember exactly what the message from Major Jordaan was? What exactly did the message entail, what was the message? MR NGO Myself and who? MR DU PLESSIS What was the message of Major Jordaan that you received, explain to us. MR NGO He said I was supposed to report to Captain Loots. MR DU PLESSIS MR NGO He just told me that Sir. MR DU PLESSIS And then, did you report to Captain Loots? MR NGO Yes, I did. MR DU PLESSIS Alone, or with anybody else? MR NGO Yes, I was alone. MR DU PLESSIS And exactly what did Captain Loots tell you? MR NGO He said I must proceed to Bloemfontein. MR DU PLESSIS Is that all that he said? MR NGO He said I should go to Bloemfontein. MR DU PLESSIS I asked, was that all that he said, I accept that that was all that he said, am I correct? MR NGO He requested that I must go and report in Bloemfontein. MR DU PLESSIS All right. Now, exactly what did you do then - after he said that to you? MR NGO I came to Bloemfontein. MR DU PLESSIS How did you get to Bloemfontein? MR NGO I was brought by Dan Bokaba. MR DU PLESSIS And you drove in a vehicle, is that correct? MR NGO That is Hendrik Bokaba, not Dan Bokaba. MR DU PLESSIS And in what vehicle did you drive? MR NGO MR DU PLESSIS What did you and Bokaba discuss when you were driving to Bloemfontein, can you remember? MR NGO MR DU PLESSIS Did Bokaba discuss with you at all, the reason why you had to go to Bloemfontein? MR NGO No, he just received an instruction that he must bring me to Bloemfontein, he never discussed anything extra other than that. MR DU PLESSIS All right. And do I understand you correctly, your application says that Bokaba dropped you off at the offices of the security branch in Bloemfontein, is that correct? MR NGO That is true. MR DU PLESSIS Because I want to put to you Mr Ngo, that Bokaba will testify that he had never taken you to Bloemfontein and in fact that he had never been to Bloemfontein before, until this week. JUDGE NGOEPE [...inaudible] MR DU PLESSIS Pardon? JUDGE NGOEPE ...[inaudible] MR DU PLESSIS Until the 15th of May of this year. MR NGO Do you mean this year? MR DU PLESSIS This year, yes. Bokaba says he has never been to Bloemfontein until the 15th of May this year with this amnesty application - with your amnesty application. MR NGO MR DU PLESSIS MR NGO I was brought here by him, he knows Bloemfontein. MR DU PLESSIS All right. And who did you report to? Colonel Coetzee, is that right? MR NGO Yes, that is true. MR DU PLESSIS All right. And what happened to Bokaba after that? MR NGO He dropped me here and returned back. MR DU PLESSIS MR NGO Yes, that is true. MR DU PLESSIS And the first time you heard was when Coetzee told you, when he discussed the operation with you, that was the first time you heard why you had to go to Bloemfontein? MR NGO That is true. MR DU PLESSIS Do I understand your application also correctly that you were specifically singled out to go to Bloemfontein to execute this operation? Do I understand that correctly? MR NGO MR DU PLESSIS What I mean is, you were specifically singled out ...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON MR DU PLESSIS CHAIRPERSON MR DU PLESSIS MR NGO When I arrived here, I went straight to Colonel Coetzee and when I was with him, two officers arrived who is Shaw and Erasmus, they knew that I was supposed to carry out that operation. Those are the people I know that they knew - that they knew the arrangements of my participation in that operation to eliminate Mr Venter because I discussed with him about the operation together with Colonel Coetzee. MR DU PLESSIS Now Mr Ngo, and when Colonel Coetzee told you about Mr Venter you saw that it was the Mr Venter that you knew? MR NGO MR DU PLESSIS Were you ever told Mr Ngo, why you were asked to go to Bloemfontein specifically to be asked to eliminate Mr Venter, were you ever told the reason why you were decided upon? MR NGO Yes, I was told about the reason. MR DU PLESSIS What were you told? MR NGO MR DU PLESSIS But why you Mr Ngo, why you? Why were - did they ever tell you why they decided to use you for this operation? MR NGO JUDGE NGOEPE MR DU PLESSIS JUDGE NGOEPE MR DU PLESSIS Now Mr Ngo, did Colonel Loots - Colonel Coetzee, did they know that you knew Mr Venter, did you tell them? CHAIRPERSON MR DU PLESSIS Yes Mr Chairman, but ...[inaudible] CHAIRPERSON ...[inaudible] MR DU PLESSIS Yes. All right Mr Chairman. Now ...[inaudible] JUDGE NGOEPE Mr du Plessis, you were present when we made a ruling in Pretoria that people implicated do not have an automatic right to cross-examine witnesses but we have never denied people implicated, the right to cross-examine but that must be - must remain within reasonable limits. You are no longer within reasonable limits with your questions. MR DU PLESSIS Right, I accept that Mr Chairman, does that mean that I have to stop my cross-examination Mr Chairman? JUDGE NGOEPE MR DU PLESSIS Yes, Mr Chairman, but I had to establish obviously exactly what was told. Now ...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON You have. MR DU PLESSIS ADV DE JAGER MR DU PLESSIS Mr Chairman, the only question I wanted to ask ...[intervention] MR MEMANI Mr Chairman, the other difficulty that I have is that a Judge has made a ruling that my learned friend is out of order and that if he wishes to continue this submission with these questions, he must make submission as to why he is within reasonable limits. He chooses to ignore that and says he will explain later but he has not made submissions to justify why he should continue with this line of examination. Now I propose that he must make those submissions and justify why he should continue with this line of cross-examination. JUDGE NGOEPE MR MEMANI As the Chair pleases. MR DU PLESSIS Mr Chairman, may I be afforded the opportunity to explain why I want to ask one further question to the witness? CHAIRPERSON Very well, what is it you ...[inaudible] MR DU PLESSIS Mr Chairman, the only question or the only point that I would like to deal with, is the probability why Captain Loots would have sent Mr Ngo to Bloemfontein to execute this operation where Mr Ngo knew Mr Venter ...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON MR DU PLESSIS Mr Chairman, the probability turns around the question why a person who knows the victim and could be linked to the victim would be asked to execute the operation. CHAIRPERSON Because he can get into the house and sit down with the victim sitting peacefully in the chair in front of him when he executes him, as he did. MR DU PLESSIS Well Mr Chairman, we know about evidence of previous incidents such as this, exactly how the operations of the security branch worked and ...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON And nothing whatsoever to suggest on the information set out here or anywhere else, that Loots was remotely involved. There was no suggestion of that sort and you go on and on. As Mr de Jager put, any moment you might step onto a landmine but let us not waste any further time on something that is totally irrelevant to your client. You are here representing certain implicated parties and as my brother pointed out to you, we have ruled that they are entitled to be heard within reasonable limits, not to investigate the entire story. MR DU PLESSIS Thank you Mr Chairman, I accept that and I will then accept that I cannot ask any further questions about Mr Venter and I will not do so. Now Mr Ngo, can you turn to page - Mr Chairman may I enquire, does that also mean that I cannot put anything else about the version of Colonel Loots and Mr Bokaba to the witness about Mr Venter? CHAIRPERSON MR DU PLESSIS Thank you Mr Chairman, because I wanted to do that. CHAIRPERSON ...[inaudible] MR DU PLESSIS MR NGO Page 44, A,B,C, bundle A ...[inaudible] MR DU PLESSIS Well, that is bundle B Mr Ngo. MR NGO I have it Sir. MR DU PLESSIS MR NGO That is not true, he transported me to Bloemfontein. MR DU PLESSIS Right, then if we turn to page 49, well it goes actually over to page 50, Colonel Loots says that he denies that he ever gave instructions directly or indirectly to you with reference to the Venter incident in Bloemfontein. He denies further that he sent Bokaba - gave Bokaba instructions to take you to Bloemfontein and he denies that he had any knowledge of any operation in Bloemfontein at that time. What do you say about that? MR NGO MR DU PLESSIS Thank you very much. Can we turn to page 43 of bundle A please? Have you got that? MR NGO I have it Sir. MR DU PLESSIS Do you see it is - it deals with the application of Louisa Mbongo, do you see that? MR NGO I do. MR DU PLESSIS All right. Now, can you tell us exactly what did you know about Louisa Mbongo? MR NGO I used to know here as a member of MYO. MR DU PLESSIS Yes, and did you give any information about her to Captain Loots? MR NGO I knew here through Bokaba? MR DU PLESSIS Did you give any information about her to Captain Loots? MR NGO They knew about here already. MR DU PLESSIS MR NGO As I was monitoring her movements together with Bokaba to know exactly where she is and where does she attend the meetings, that is where we were involved and what was happening about her life. MR DU PLESSIS All right. And exactly what was the instruction that you received pertaining to this incident? MR NGO We were instructed to go and bomb their house. MR DU PLESSIS Why was that, why did you receive that instruction, do you know? MR NGO She was problematic, she was a real problem. At school she used to organise other scholars at schools so that they should boycott schools. There were so many things that she was involved in, that is why when we continued reporting to Captain Loots, he decided that we should go back and bomb the house. MR DU PLESSIS All right. And was that told to you by anybody when you received the instruction, was that told to you as the reason? MR NGO What type of reasons? MR DU PLESSIS MR NGO They were real problematic because they were members of MYO. The very same organisation of MYO was problematic. We used to monitor them and report that to Captain Loots, to let him know exactly what are they doing in the township. There we got instructions that we are supposed to go and bomb the house. This was in connection of the information given to Captain Loots by myself and Bokaba. MR DU PLESSIS Now you see, if I can just put to you what Bokaba says about this. If I can take you to bundle B, page 45, all right, he says on page 45 that he denies that himself and Danny Selahla was involved in a petrol bombing in the Mamelodi district where you were present, he says that you were not a member of the security branch and never a trusted member of the operations of the security police, Northern Transvaal branch at the time. He says, 3.4, that any of the houses where he was named by you, that you were supposedly involved in, he denies that he was ever involved in such a bombing. And he goes further and says, as far as his knowledge goes by the members of the security branch, Northern Transvaal. What do you say to that? MR NGO MR DU PLESSIS Yes, and then what I want to put to you is what Colonel Loots says on page 51 of bundle B, paragraph 3.4, he confirms the correctness of what Bokaba says and then he says further he denies that he ever gave an instruction to Bokaba, Selahla or yourself to bomb any house referred to in your application. What do you say to that? MR NGO He gave us instructions. MR DU PLESSIS MR NGO Page 43, bundle what? MR DU PLESSIS Bundle A, bundle A. MR NGO What was your question Sir? MR DU PLESSIS "Captain Loots said we should petrol bomb his house too 3 weeks after the attack of the house of Louisa" MR NGO MR DU PLESSIS ADV DE JAGER ...[inaudible] last sentence Mr du Plessis, what does that mean? "Captain Loots then said we should petrol bomb his house too 3 weeks after the attack at the house of Louisa". MR DU PLESSIS ADV DE JAGER MR DU PLESSIS ADV DE JAGER MR DU PLESSIS MR NGO MR DU PLESSIS MR NGO CHAIRPERSON "The house of a MYO member known as Nono Gint, A1 section, Mamelodi West, the house Louisa Mbongo, section Mamelodi West, the house of Rebecca Mothokoane, the house of Sandra Mathabathe - we petrol-bombed all these houses on the instructions of Captain Loots of the security branch of Pretoria" MR DU PLESSIS CHAIRPERSON MR DU PLESSIS Right Mr Chairman, I will accept that and leave it at that. Mr Ngo, in respect of the application on page 45, can you - do you know the reason why this application was withdrawn? MR NGO May you repeat your question Sir? MR DU PLESSIS What is the reason why this ...[intervention] MR MEMANI But Mr Chair, what is the relevance of the reason of why an application has been withdrawn if it has been withdrawn? CHAIRPERSON I consider it may well be relevant, he may well suggest that he has made applications for matters for matters that he knew might not be covered. MR MEMANI But ...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON It affects his credibility and whether he has made a full disclosure. Carry on. MR DU PLESSIS MR NGO MR DU PLESSIS "During 1988 a personal clash between me, Nelson Ngo with a MYO member named Sandra who accused my girlfriend at the time Efolia Dekgali, of having an affair with a policeman, caused me to bear a grudge against her which resulted me throwing his home with four petrol bombs because I personally requested two members of the riot unit" And then it goes on. Now, it says that you did this out of a personal grudge, do you see that? Is that correct? MR NGO You have mentioned about gangsters, what is happening with them? What was the main issue with the gangsters? MR DU PLESSIS Well Mr Ngo, you applied for this incident, you say that you bore a grudge against this Sandra and then that you bombed the house as a result of the grudge. Now, is that correct or is that not correct? MR NGO MR DU PLESSIS MR NGO CHAIRPERSON MR NGO Yes, that is true. CHAIRPERSON MR NGO That is Mathabathe, Sandra Mathabathe. CHAIRPERSON The person whom you referred to in your original application for amnesty which is bundle C(a), page 13, where you say "It was one of the houses you petrol-bombed on the instructions of Captain Loots" "We petrol- bombed all these houses on the instructions of Captain Loots" MR NGO I explained to the Committee that - how I petrol-bombed this house, so I would not change that. CHAIRPERSON In your application which was typed out which is before you if you want to look at it, you said you were given instructions to petrol-bomb this house by Captain Loots. You have just told us that that is not true, can you explain why you made this original statement? MR MEMANI Mr Chair, on my reading of A13, the - no, there is a reference to Mathabathe there. CHAIRPERSON MR NGO I have an answer Sir. I was making a list of the houses I petrol-bombed - if you look carefully, you will see that it is written. I was explaining what was happening, which houses I petrol-bombed. CHAIRPERSON Yes. And you explained that you did so on the instructions of Captain Loots. MR NGO It appears like that but I explained later in the application that what did I do those things and the instructions from Captain Loots which he has given were meant for three people, the houses of three people. CHAIRPERSON MR NGO I agree with the Chairperson when he says to me, in the application I spoke that all the instructions I received from Captain Loots but I explained that the house of Sandra Mathabathe, I did that on my own because she was threatening my girlfriend. JUDGE NGOEPE So, what appears on page 13 is a mistake? MR NGO Yes, about Sandra Mathabathe, yes. JUDGE NGOEPE MR NGO Yes, on the name of Sandra Mathabathe. JUDGE NGOEPE MR NGO Yes, it is a mistake which I did to include Sandra Mathabathe on that list. JUDGE NGOEPE You should have said so when my brother asked you questions. MR NGO Okay. JUDGE NGOEPE Why do you lack the courage to admit mistakes where you made mistakes? MR NGO I was explaining only that it was a mistake to include that house. JUDGE NGOEPE You come with ...[inaudible] answers instead of simply admit - saying: "I have made a mistake". MR DU PLESSIS Mr Ngo, if you turn to page 44, the second paragraph, you will see that you say there "The other two members of MYO who had their houses burnt because of their political activities were Rebecca Mothokoane and Sandra Mathabathe" CHAIRPERSON MR DU PLESSIS Yes, it conflicts with the second page or the next page, page 45 as well Mr Chairman, it directly conflicts with that as well. Can you explain that to us Mr Ngo? MR NGO MR DU PLESSIS On page 44 you say that you burnt the house because of the political activities of Sandra Mathabathe and on page 45 you say that you bore a grudge against her which resulted in you throwing the house with four petrol bombs. Now which one is true, was it because of her political activities or because of the grudge? MR NGO MR DU PLESSIS All right. Mr ...[intervention] ADV DE JAGER MR NGO ADV DE JAGER MR NGO ADV DE JAGER Who were they? CHAIRPERSON Members of the riot unit. MR NGO Duiker and Nkune. MR DU PLESSIS Now you see Mr Ngo, on page 13 of bundle C ...[intervention] MR NGO Which page Sir? MR DU PLESSIS Page 13 in bundle C, you include this incident as an incident - page 13 - you see you say at paragraph B - paragraph A "Within a period of three weeks, Sergeant Bokaba, Constable Selahla and I while working as a team in Mamelodi, petrol-bombed the houses in the following sections" MR NGO MR DU PLESSIS All right, but you see the mistake goes further, the last paragraph on page 13, you say the following" "I confirm that the above-mentioned include all operations of illegal nature that I had been involved in. I respectfully submit that none of these acts were done of my own accord or to my own advantage. All acts were committed in the time of my duty and on instructions of members of the security branch who held higher ranks me and whose instructions I was bound to obey" So, must we accept that that was also a mistake, to have included Sandra Mathabathe in that list and the last paragraph is therefore not correct? MR NGO MR DU PLESSIS Yes, you see Mr Ngo, on page 46 you repeated the mistake in your second application where you said: "I confirm" - the last paragraph "I confirm that the above-mentioned including all operations of illegal nature that I had been involved in but were ...[inaudible]-convicted of all the acts committed. I respectfully submit that none of these acts were done of my own accord and to my own advantage, all the acts were committed in the time of duty and on instruction of members of the security branch who held higher ranks than me and whose instruction I was bound to obey" So, is it correct that the mistake was repeated in your later application? MR NGO MR DU PLESSIS Mr Ngo on page 13 of bundle C, you say in paragraph B - A, in the middle of that page, you say "Within a period of three weeks Sergeant Bokaba and Constable Selahla and you petrol-bombed the houses" Now, that was in 1987 to 1988, is that correct? Do you say that there? MR NGO Yes, I said that. I was making an estimation of the period which I thought it was right, I was not cocksure of the period but we started in 1987. It was the period I have given. MR DU PLESSIS Yes, and then on page 10 of bundle A, the fifth line from the bottom - page 10, this is the application of Venter which was committed in January 1989, - the fifth line from the bottom, you say "I was transported to Bloemfontein by Constable Hendrik Bokaba with a state vehicle" Do you see that? You say he was a Constable in 1989 but in your first application you say he was already a Sergeant in 1987 to 1988 - in bundle C. Was that also a mistake? ...[intervention] MR MEMANI MR DU PLESSIS Mr Chairman? CHAIRPERSON MR DU PLESSIS Well, Mr ...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON He consistently refers to Colonel Coetzee in his application when he has time and again in his evidence said that at that time he was a Major. MR DU PLESSIS ADV DE JAGER Mr Ngo, could you kindly tell us why did refer to him as a Sergeant in 1987 and as a Constable in 1988? MR NGO MR DU PLESSIS All right. Now Mr Ngo, ...[intervention] JUDGE NGOEPE MR DU PLESSIS JUDGE NGOEPE When did he become a Captain? MR DU PLESSIS CHAIRPERSON COMMITTEE ADJOURNS ON RESUMPTION MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO (s.u.o). MR DU PLESSIS Mr Ngo, can you turn to page 46, bundle A please and page 13 of bundle C. MR NGO Page ...[inaudible] MR DU PLESSIS Page 46, bundle A and page 13 of bundle C. Have you got that? MR NGO MR DU PLESSIS This is the application pertaining to the security guard officer and I want to ask you a few questions about that. What was the reason Mr Ngo, why the security guard had to be picked up? MR NGO We were told that he provides security for people who are members of certain organisations in the hostel. He was identified by Hendrik Bokaba when we were together. MR DU PLESSIS Now, on page 13 of bundle C, you said that "You got out of the minibus, started chasing him but he ran into the Pubma bottle store" You said: "Sergeant Bokaba said we must shoot him, we fired several shots at him and he fell and stand up, run through the bottle store" Is that correct, is that what happened? MR NGO MR DU PLESSIS All right, but you see what you say there in page 13, bundle C, you say "Sergeant Bokaba said we must shoot him, we fired several shots at him" That is what you said there, is that not correct? MR NGO We shoot in his direction. MR DU PLESSIS MR NGO We did shoot at his direction. MR DU PLESSIS And where was he when he fell? MR NGO He was running towards the bottle store after we fired at him. MR DU PLESSIS Yes, you see, because you say in Annexure C, page 13, you say "We started chasing him but he ran into Pubma bottle store" And then you say: "Sergeant Bokaba said we must him and we fired several shots at him, he fell and stand up and run through the bottle store" Now, the way you set it out, he was already in the bottle store when you fired shots at him and he fell and he ran through the bottle store, is that not correct? MR NGO MR DU PLESSIS Did he never enter the bottle store or did he enter the bottle store at some stage? MR NGO MR DU PLESSIS Now you say on page 13, you say "and stand up, run through the bottle store. Sergeant Bokaba said we must leave him" Is that not correct then? MR NGO MR DU PLESSIS You see, because in your later application on page 46, you say "when I got out of the motor vehicle, I called him and then - and when he recognised the man, ran away, I then picked out my firearm and shoot to his direction and he run to the direction of the shopping complex in Pubma bottle store in Mamelodi and fall amongst the peoples there and Hendrik then said we must leave him anyway, we have hit him" MR MEMANI MR DU PLESSIS Yes, all right. Now, ...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON I think what counsel was putting to him was what he in fact said in his previous application which was, he ran into the bottle store and he ran through the bottle store. He says in his application, he ran into the bottle store. Have you not read that? MR MEMANI Yes, but he says - he does explain that he never actually got into the bottle store. CHAIRPERSON MR DU PLESSIS CHAIRPERSON MR DU PLESSIS Yes, I just want to make sure what the explanation is Mr Chairman. MR NGO MR DU PLESSIS Yes, you see Mr Ngo, I find that strange because you say in your - in both versions you say "Upon our follow-up we found out that the man was admitted to hospital in Mamelodi and no trace of this case was made against me" So you found out that he was admitted to hospital? And you said in bundle C, you said: "We found out that he was has been admitted to Mamelodi hospital with hand and leg injuries" MR NGO JUDGE NGOEPE Mr du Plessis, is the purpose of your cross-examination to show that your client was not involved in the shooting, or is the purpose of your cross-examination in fact to go further to show that the incident never happened? MR DU PLESSIS JUDGE NGOEPE MR DU PLESSIS MR NGO MR DU PLESSIS You see, and what I also want to put to you Mr Ngo and that is simply something that I will argue, is that I find it improbable that what you say on page 13, bundle C that "All the petrol bombings you were involved in with Bokaba and Selahla happened within a period of three weeks" Where you worked with them together for more that two years. I find that improbable. MR MEMANI MR DU PLESSIS Right, now what I want to put to you is the evidence of Bokaba will be that he became a Constable in the South African police in 1982, that he became a Sergeant in 1990 and that he became a Captain in July 1997. I put that to you, do you dispute that? MR NGO CHAIRPERSON From that, do I understand that he was a Constable until 1990 - all the time he could have worked with this applicant, he could only have been a Constable. MR DU PLESSIS CHAIRPERSON How do you know that he - who told you that he had become a Sergeant? MR NGO CHAIRPERSON Thank you. MR DU PLESSIS MR NGO MR DU PLESSIS Yes Mr Ngo, Captain Loots and Bokaba are applying for amnesty for incidents which are far worse than these petrol-bombings that you are mentioning here and I just put it to you that it is improbable that they - where they have applied for amnesty in respect of all the incidents they were involved in, they would not have applied for these incidents. So, I put it to you that it is improbable that they were ever involved in these incidents that you applied for amnesty for. MR NGO CHAIRPERSON MR DU PLESSIS NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR DU PLESSIS CHAIRPERSON Mr Brink? CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR BRINK the Committee that Mohapi was a source of considerable irritation to the security branch because of his political activities, is that correct? MR NGO That is true. MR BRINK And if my memory serves me correctly, you said he was arrested from time to time. MR NGO That is true. MR BRINK Are you able to tell the Committee, as far as you remember, how many times he was arrested? MR NGO MR BRINK Four of five time? MR NGO MR BRINK You say he was arrested for public violence and he was taken to court and charged with public violence? MR NGO There are other incidents where he was arrested and ...[intervention] MR BRINK MR NGO MR BRINK Was he arrested for any other criminal offence to your knowledge? MR NGO Yes, that is true. MR BRINK What? MR NGO That is the time when they stabbed me. MR BRINK And he was acquitted? MR NGO No - yes, he was acquitted. MR BRINK Was he arrested for any other criminal offence to your knowledge? MR NGO Yes, he was arrested during the state of emergency. You are not taken to court during the state of emergency. MR BRINK No, no, no, please listen ...[intervention] MR MEMANI Mr Brink, let the witness finish, it may not be the right answer ...[intervention] MR BRINK MR MEMANI Mr Chairman, I think ...[intervention] MR BRINK MR MEMANI MR BRINK Please, do not interrupt me Mr Memani. CHAIRPERSON What are you objecting to Mr Memani? MR MEMANI CHAIRPERSON MR MEMANI But on this occasion he was still answering. MR BRINK He was not answering me, he was evading my question. Please let me continue. MR NGO Yes, that is true. MR BRINK You told us he was arrested for assault in relation to you and he was acquitted. MR NGO That is true. MR BRINK To your knowledge, was he arrested in respect to any other criminal offence? MR NGO MR BRINK MR NGO MR BRINK How many times, was my question? JUDGE NGOEPE MR BRINK Are you able to give any indication as to whether he was arrested under security legislation more than once? MR NGO MR BRINK MR NGO Yes, I did say that. When he was arrested at Hilton police station, that was the other incident where he was detained under security laws. MR BRINK So, if he was arrested under security legislation on a number of occasions, it follows does it not, that he must have been released on a number of occasions. MR NGO MR BRINK Thank you Mr Ngo. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR BRINK JUDGE NGOEPE Sorry, who detained him on some of these occasions at least? MR NGO We would arrest him at times in the street together with Lieutenant Shaw. In many instances it was Shaw and Erasmus and Mamome, we would arrest him in the street, at time we would raid him in his house - where he - at home and detain him. JUDGE NGOEPE On whose instructions would you go out to go and arrest him? MR NGO We received instructions from Colonel Coetzee. JUDGE NGOEPE Thank you. ADV DE JAGER When you were stationed in Mamelodi, were you the only member of unit 19 stationed at Mamelodi and sleeping at the barracks or where there any other members of the riot unit 19 also stationed there? MR NGO Some of them were doing special duties and many of them were sleeping at the barracks, they were doing special duties. ADV DE JAGER Were there any of your colleagues from unit 19 permanently stationed with you at Mamelodi? MR NGO ADV DE JAGER MR NGO ADV DE JAGER Were they stationed at Mamelodi? MR NGO No, they were not stationed at Mamelodi. ADV DE JAGER Where did you find them to accompany you? Did you go to Roslind? MR NGO No, I did those petrol bombs at the barracks - I found them at the barracks. ADV DE JAGER Were they sleeping there at the barracks? MR NGO Yes, they were sleeping at the barracks. ADV DE JAGER Were they on special duty there or did they only pass by and sleep there? MR NGO They would leave and then at times they would come back and sleep but at times they would leave for a long time. ADV DE JAGER Thank you. MR STANDER In the meantime I phoned my office to give me a clerk to come and help me but please bear with me, I just want to make sure before the applicant stands down whether he knew of these people because they were also victims. So, have I got your permission to ask a few questions ...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON MR STANDER MR VISSER CHAIRPERSON ...[inaudible] CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR VISSER Mr Ngo, would you please turn to page 35 of bundle A, that is your hand-written part of your application. I just want to go through this with you quickly Mr Ngo. You said at page 35 did you not: "Members of the security police and the riot squad police who participated in the beating up of all comrades arrested at Botshabelo were as follows:" And the first name is: "Captain Tsomela" Now this Captain Tsomela, you told us today, was not a member of the security branch or did I misunderstand you? MR NGO Yes, he was not a member of the security police. MR VISSER Well, of what unit or division of the South African police was he a member? MR NGO He was a member of the uniform police. We found the police who were arranged - who arranged the raid that included special constables and riot constables, then we found him in that unit and then he was the leader or the senior officer. MR VISSER MR NGO The objective of the riot squad and special constables was to barr the violence or riots in the townships, some of them were just mentioned as special constables but they were senior, so he was not a member of the security branch. MR VISSER MR NGO MR VISSER Is it your evidence Mr Ngo, that Captain Tsomela also received instructions from Coetzee and/or Stevenson or from anyone else to beat up these arrested and detained persons, is that your evidence? MR NGO We found instructions - as we were members of the security branch, to assault those people from Colonel Coetzee and Stevenson. We were together with the members of the riot squad so Captain Tsomela was among of those people. MR VISSER Okay. And in fact you stated at page 35, that he was one of the people who participated in beating up of all the comrades arrested at Botshabelo, did you not? I just want to hear whether that is correct. MR NGO Captain Tsomela appeared there as a person whom we arrived who was - then he was leader of, or senior to those police who were present so the instructions to assault those people, we found them from Colonel Coetzee. MR VISSER Let me ask the question this way, is what you stated at page 35 in regard to Captain Tsomela, is that the correct evidence? MR NGO During the time of the assault, even members of the riot squad were assaulting people but Captain Tsomela - I never heard him receiving instructions form Colonel Coetzee that he should assault people and how he should assault those people and he was present with Stevenson and Coetzee when we assaulting those people. MR VISSER Thank you Mr Ngo, thank you very much, you explained that very well to us. The next person Warrant Officer van den Burg, would it be fair to assume that that is a reference to van den Berg? MR NGO That is van den Berg. MR VISSER Is it correct that this morning, just a few minutes ago when Mr Brink was questioning you, you said that White Mohapi was arrested for having stabbed you, did you say so? MR NGO Yes, he was acquitted for that. MR VISSER Thank you. I just want to place on record Mr Ngo, for the assistance of the Committee, the evidence by some of my clients will be that White Mohapi was indeed arrested on more than one occasion, perhaps two or three occasions or even more under security legislation and clearly also released every time but that he was only arrested for one criminal offence and that is for the stabbing of Nelson Ngo. MR NGO Do they say he was just only arrested once for criminal offence? MR VISSER Yes, yes, Mr Ngo, and that was for stabbing you. MR NGO White was - they stabbed me after he was arrested many times. He was arrested whilst he was a student together with me in many things he did. Even when I was in the police, I used to raid him and arrest him. MR VISSER NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VISSER MR STANDER Mr Chairman, I think this ...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON Do you want a short adjournment. MR STANDER Thank you very much. CHAIRPERSON We will take an adjournment for a few minutes. COMMITTEE ADJOURNS ON RESUMPTION MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO s.u.o. MR STANDER MR BRINK MR STANDER That is in fact true Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON We are obliged to you for your assistance in that regard, thank you. MR STANDER CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR STANDER Now Mr Ngo, do you know the two gentlemen by the names of Matthews Mzuzwana and Zwelabantu Mzuzwana? INTERPRETER MR NGO Yes, I know them. MR STANDER Mr Ngo, is that Mr Matthews Mzuzwana? MR NGO MR STANDER Mr Ngo, is that Mr Zwelabantu Mzuzwana? MR NGO MR STANDER So let the record again reflect that he referred to Mr Zwelabantu Mzuzwana who was in the audience and who stood up when his name was called. Now these two gentlemen, how come you know of about them? MR NGO I will start with Matthews. MR STANDER Please proceed. MR NGO He was a student at Vulamasango high school and he was a member of COSAS, during that time he was a member of COSAS, so we worked together in COSAS to organise the students and to carry forward the objectives of COSAS. MR STANDER MR NGO MR STANDER Was that after you became an informer for the security branch of the South African police? MR NGO Yes, I would say yes. MR STANDER Do you think he knew about your being an informer of the South African police by that time? MR NGO MR STANDER MR NGO MR STANDER Is it true that it was in fact the parental home of Mr Zwelabantu Mzuzwana that you wanted to bomb? MR NGO MR STANDER MR NGO MR STANDER Now tell me, at that stage Citi Mzuzwana was in custody, do you know about that? MR NGO MR STANDER MR NGO MR STANDER Can you recall bombing a Toyota Corolla light deliver van, creamish of colour? MR NGO You mean Ford Cortina? MR STANDER According to my instructions it was a Toyota Corolla. MR NGO MR STANDER MR NGO MR STANDER Tell me, Mr Citi Mzuzwana as he was called at that stage, he was also a member of the ...[inaudible] Youth Congress - MYKO as it has been called? MR NGO I know that there was such kind of organisation, I started to know when he was campaigning for "Release Mandela" together with Curtis Nkonto and Terra Lacotta. MR STANDER Now tell me, as regards to Matthews Mzuzwana, he was shot in his head at some stage, were you involved in that incident? MR NGO MR STANDER Now, please explain to this Committee, when was it arranged that he should have been shot? MR NGO MR STANDER By whom did you say was the instruction given? MR NGO MR STANDER MR NGO Yes, that is true. MR STANDER And being that, that he was part of COSAS, that was the reason why he was targeted to be shot at? MR NGO In Vulamasango he was the one and together with Oupa, people who were in the leadership who were organising COSAS activities and they were always in the forefront, that is why arrangements were made that he must be shot. It is because he was taking students from schools to hold meetings. MR STANDER Just another further aspect that has been drawn to my attention Mr Chairman. Who accompanied you Mr Ngo, at the stage when the bombings took place? MR NGO MR STANDER The house of Citi Mzuzwana. MR NGO It was Mamome, Tsoametsi, Mtyala and myself. MR STANDER Was Mr Motsamai also there? MR NGO Yes, Motsamai was there. MR STANDER Thank you Mr Chairman. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR STANDER CHAIRPERSON Can we now proceed? MR MEMANI Now Mr Ngo, do you have Exhibit B in front of you? MR VISSER CHAIRPERSON FURTHER CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR VISSER Mr Ngo, you say that Colonel Coetzee gave instructions to the riot squad for them to shoot Mr Matthews Mzuzwana and did I understand you correctly? MR NGO No, he gave instructions to members of the security branch that they should point out people of the riot squad that who are the people in the leadership in the marches and in the organisations - in the activities of COSAS, so that the people of riot squad when the were going block those marches, they should know the targets whom they should shoot. MR VISSER So, do I understand correctly then, that members of the security branch were told by Coetzee to go to the riot squad members - was this while there were marches going on? - to identify the leaders. MR NGO MR VISSER Mr Ngo, did you yourself receive such an instruction and carry out such an instruction by indicating to members of the riot squad who targets were? You yourself, did you do that? MR NGO That is Sergeant Mamome who was informing them. MR VISSER Was he the only one who did that? MR NGO MR VISSER Were you present when Mr Mamome was instructed directly by Colonel Coetzee to point targets out to the riot squad? MR NGO Yes, he said that in a parade. MR VISSER Within earshot of all the members on the parade? MR NGO Yes, he was telling us but the person who was responsible for transferring that instruction was Sergeant Mamome - to the riot squad. MR VISSER Why were the rest of you not instructed also to inform the riot squad as to who targets were supposed to be? MR NGO He told Sergeant Mamome - I would do it if the opportunity arose but there was no situation which demanded me that I should inform the riot squad but the person who directly instructed was Mamome. MR VISSER MR NGO Mamome has already identified though - the targets, they knew already, they knew all the time. They were just waiting for an opportunity to shoot him. MR VISSER How many targets did Mr - how many targets do you know of that Mr Mamome identified to members of the riot squad? MR NGO MR VISSER MR NGO MR VISSER MR NGO MR VISSER MR NGO MR VISSER MR NGO Bundle? MR VISSER Yes, bundle A. MR NGO Which page? MR VISSER 147. MR NGO MR VISSER MR NGO MR STANDER Can Mr Matthews Mzuzwana just rise? Mr Mzuzwana, what is all your names please, will you just repeat that? MR MZUZWANA ...[inaudible] MR STANDER MR MEMANI Zwelinjani. MR STANDER Please come forward. MR MEMANI MR STANDER CHAIRPERSON MR MZUZWANA Zwelinjani Matthews Mzuzwana. CHAIRPERSON Do you have any further questions? MR VISSER Could he perhaps spell it Mr Chairman? CHAIRPERSON How do you spell it? MR MZUZWANA Z-w-e-l-i-n-j-a-n-i. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. MR VISSER MR MZUZWANA Zwelabantu. CHAIRPERSON Do you know someone, Zwelinzima Mzuzwana? MR MZUZWANA No, maybe they misspelt my name, Zwelinzima is not my name. JUDGE NGOEPE ...[inaudible] MR MZUZWANA Zwelabantu. MR STANDER JUDGE NGOEPE ...[inaudible] MR STANDER Do you want me to hand it up? Although it is written here Matthews Mzuzwana, it seems to me that it is the same person. MR VISSER MR STANDER MR VISSER MR MEMANI MR VISSER ADV DE JAGER Perhaps we should have a look, he says in paragraph 7 Not his child or his son, Zwelinzima Mzuzwana. MR VISSER Yes, thank you Mr Chairman, I was coming to that very question right now. MR MEMANI No, it has never been said Mr Visser. MR VISSER MR STANDER Mr Chairman, what I really did say is: "It was the parental home of Mr Citi Mzuzwana", that I referred to. It might be so that I was mistaken at that stage and I take full responsibility for the fact that I must have misled my learned friend, but in fact the question was put that it was the parental home of Citi Mzuzwana. ADV DE JAGER MR STANDER That is in fact ...[intervention] ADV DE JAGER MR STANDER Mr de Jager, Mr Chairman, it is in fact so that Citi Mzuzwana is the same person as Zwelabantu Mzuzwana that I referred to. That we can clarify again if it needs be done. JUDGE NGOEPE MR STANDER ADV DE JAGER MR STANDER That is in fact correct Mr Chairman. MR VISSER MR STANDER MR VISSER MR STANDER Can I make a suggestion Mr Chairman, so that we can ask either one of the two brothers to come here in front of us where I did just now, so that they can testify to that effect if possible? CHAIRPERSON MR STANDER I intend doing so. CHAIRPERSON Well then, can the applicant just move and go and...[inaudible] ZWELABANTU MZUZWANA (sworn states) EXAMINATION BY MR STANDER Mr Chairman? Now, Mr Mzuzwana can you please tell us your full names? MR Z MZUZWANA Zwelabantu, nicknamed Citi Mzuzwana. MR STANDER And tell this Committee what was the name of your father. MR MZUZWANA Khosi Nakele Fani Mzuzwana. MR STANDER And your brother? MR MZUZWANA Matthews Zwelinjani Mzuzwana. MR STANDER Now Mr Mzuzwana, is it in fact true that your parental home, in other words the house of your father was bombed during the course of 1986? MR MZUZWANA MR STANDER MR MZUZWANA That is true. MR STANDER Is it also correct that during the course of 1987, your own home was also petrol-bombed? MR MZUZWANA That is true. MR STANDER MR MZUZWANA MR STANDER What about your vehicle? MR MZUZWANA My car also, it was a van - it was a Toyota Hi-Lux. It was bombed whilst I was in prison and the car was in my house. CHAIRPERSON I understood the witness was being called to sort out the name problem. MR STANDER JUDGE NGOEPE MR STANDER NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR STANDER CHAIRPERSON Any other questions? Any questions by anybody else? MR VISSER Visser on record Mr Chairman, may I just try to clarify something? How many brothers are you Sir? MR MZUZWANA MR VISSER MR MZUZWANA That Myekeni Mzuzwana. MR VISSER Will you just spell that for us please? MR MZUZWANA M-y-e-k-e-n-i. MR VISSER MR MZUZWANA MR VISSER Yes, that may be appropriate. ADV DE JAGER MR MZUZWANA 9592 Booysen Street, Rocklands. ADV DE JAGER MR MZUZWANA 1034 Mosheshwe Street, Rocklands. MR VISSER Now, just for the sake of the record, to make it absolutely clear, you are not a person that was shot in the head by anybody? CHAIRPERSON Are we clarifying names or are we proceeding with cross-examination? Now, we were told were we not, that Matthews was shot in the head. MR VISSER You were not shot in the head were you? MR MZUZWANA No, I was not shot. MR VISSER Thank you Mr Chairman, I have no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VISSER MR MZUZWANA May I go Mr Chairman? WITNESS EXCUSED CHAIRPERSON MR VISSER NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VISSER <U>CHAIRPERSON Can we now revert to re-examination? ADV DE JAGER MR NGO Yes. ADV DE JAGER In Booysens Street? MR NGO CHAIRPERSON MR NGO MR MEMANI May I proceed Mr Chairman? CHAIRPERSON Yes. RE-EXAMINATION BY MR MEMANI CHAIRPERSON B44. MR MEMANI MR NGO Yes, I do. MR MEMANI If you turn to page 45, paragraph 3.3, there he says the following, that he denies "that myself and Constable Danny Selahla were involved in a petrol-bombing in the Mamelodi district where the applicant was present. The applicant was never a member of the security branch, Northern Transvaal and as such, was never a trusted member of the operations of the security police, Northern Transvaal branch at the time" Now Mr Ngo, you yourself told us yesterday that the way in which you handled an informer depends on how much you trust the informer, is that correct? MR NGO MR MEMANI Now what I want us to deal with is, how you would treat an informer if you did not trust the informer, would you let that informer know about members of the security force that worked with you? MR NGO MR MEMANI Would you take him to a place where he would be able to identify other members of the security police that you were working with? MR NGO MR MEMANI So, if members of the Northern - of the security police Northern Transvaal did not trust you, they would not have introduced you to other members of the security police in the Northern Transvaal? MR NGO Yes, that is the police of the security branch. If you are not trusted they would not expose you to all the structures - the identity of some members of the security police, so that you may not be able to identify them later. MR MEMANI MR NGO It might be one of the reasons that - how I work and they were testing my trust before they can expose me to some members of the security police. They would test you in many ways. MR MEMANI Could that also be the reason why you worked only with Selahla and Bokaba? MR NGO That may be true. MR DU PLESSIS CHAIRPERSON Mr du Plessis, you cross-examined at great length about all these aspects, I think this certainly arises from it. MR MEMANI Mr Ngo, was it also your evidence that before you became trusted by the Bloemfontein security branch, you worked with Erasmus and another person only? I cannot recall who you said the ...[intervention] ADV DE JAGER MR MEMANI It seems to me Mr Chairman, that the nature of the questions is such that I must lead, you cannot put it otherwise. Now Mr Ngo, before you became - initially when you were an informer with the security branch, were you from the onset introduced to many of the members of the security branch in Bloemfontein? MR NGO No, Sir. MR MEMANI After how long were you introduced to members of the security branch in Bloemfontein? MR NGO MR MEMANI Those are my questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MEMANI CHAIRPERSON Thank you. WITNESS EXCUSED MR DU PLESSIS CHAIRPERSON MR DU PLESSIS Yes Mr Chairman, we agree exactly with that. May I beg leave to call Colonel Loots? Thank you. He will give evidence in Afrikaans Mr Chairman. MR LOOTS Phillipus Johannes Cornelius Loots. INTERPRETER The speakers mike is not on. PHILLIPUS JOHANNES CORNELIUS LOOTS (sworn states) EXAMINATION BY MR DU PLESSIS May I proceed Mr Chairman? Thank you. MR LOOTS MR DU PLESSIS Colonel, just to be completely certain, exactly when were you in unit B, for which period of time? MR LOOTS MR DU PLESSIS All right. Colonel, at the beginning of 1990, were you still there? MR LOOTS No, I had already been transferred at that stage to the - from the security branch to the intelligence unit. MR DU PLESSIS Colonel, would you shortly explain - you said what was unit A and what B was, what was unit C? MR LOOTS It was the unit that worked with terrorist organisations. MR DU PLESSIS And unit C was divided in various divisions, is that correct? MR LOOTS That is correct. MR DU PLESSIS To explain this to the Committee and to make it clear to them with regards to evidence that was given earlier on, C1 was Vlakplaas and it later became C10, is that correct? MR LOOTS MR DU PLESSIS And unit D? MR LOOTS Unit D worked with selections, not only selections with regard to members of the security branch but also selections of private individuals who were in key positions nationally. They were selected to degrees, it was "very secret" or just "secret". MR DU PLESSIS And unit E? MR LOOTS Unit E was the labour - can we just get some sort of an indication? MR DU PLESSIS Please could you slow down a bit. Unit E? MR LOOTS It was the unit that worked with labour issues. MR DU PLESSIS MR LOOTS MR DU PLESSIS And in 1986/87, that is when - according to the evidence of Mr Ngo, he was involved in Mamelodi. Who were members of unit B at that stage that you can remember? MR LOOTS Myself was the unit commander, I had people to whom I could delegate certain tasks with regards to Attridgeville, Shushungue and Mamelodi. I had an officer for each of these. Attridgeville was Lieutenant Brandt, Shushungue, we had Captain van Jaarsveld and for Mamelodi, Captain Jacques Hechter and specifically with regards to Mamelodi, Captain Hechter had personnel for the purposes of security work at his disposal amongst which was Johan van Wyk, Warrant Officer Johannes Shlangwane and also at that stage, Constable Hendrik Bokaba. And from the end of 1987, Constable Danny Selahla to whom is referred as "slang". MR DU PLESSIS Colonel, where were the offices of unit B? MR LOOTS MR DU PLESSIS Did Captain Bokaba - we all know to whom we refer, did Bokaba and Selahla have offices there? MR LOOTS Yes, they did. MR DU PLESSIS MR LOOTS MR DU PLESSIS Colonel, what were the general tasks of Bokaba, van Wyk, Selahla and the others? MR LOOTS MR DU PLESSIS Colonel, were there ever any sub-branches or sub-offices in Mamelodi? MR LOOTS Never ever. MR DU PLESSIS And you have heard the testimony of an office called "goss", can you explain that? MR LOOTS Yes, there was a "goss" office, it - "goss" means joint operational centre and this centre was manned by members of the South African defence force, the South African police amongst which were people from unit 19, the riot unit or the riot squad. In this centre information was kept usually in maps on the walls about incidents in Mamelodi, if it was arson, riots or whatever, this information was kept there for the simple reason Mr Chair, that we did not get any information from the defence force. We had the system of informants in Mamelodi and we received this information and this was given to the joint operational centre so that these people could plan for riots, meetings, boycotts or whatever the information was on. I am not saying that the people in the JOC never gave us any information, when something came to their attention they would naturally tell us about it but it was rather the exception than the rule, we were the people that gathered the information. MR DU PLESSIS Do you have any knowledge of where the reaction force unit 19 was stationed? MR LOOTS Yes, there was an hotel - I think it was the Old Highway Hotel, it was somewhere in Roslind, that is where unit 19 was stationed. MR DU PLESSIS Judge Wilson is not from Pretoria, can you just explain to him how far that is from Mamelodi? MR LOOTS JUDGE NGOEPE What is that distance? MR DU PLESSIS 20 and 25 kilometres. JUDGE NGOEPE Between which places? MR DU PLESSIS JUDGE NGOEPE It is at least twice that distance. MR DU PLESSIS I thought about 40 to 50 Mr Chairman. MR LOOTS I will settle for that. MR DU PLESSIS Colonel, can you please explain to the Committee, when and how many times you had something to do with the applicant, Mr Ngo and how it happened? MR LOOTS All right. Mr Chair, the true situation was the following, when I took over as station of unit commander at unit B, I was in the very unfortunate situation of inheriting two very old members who were given to Mamelodi. These were two Black members who worked for me in Mamelodi, these were Warrant Officer Leonard Dumira and Warrant Officer Hlongwane. The first was already old enough to leave the force and Hendrik Bokaba was identified by Hlongwane and that is how ...[intervention] MR VISSER Colonel, could you please slow down a bit. MR LOOTS I hear what you are saying, thank you very much Mr Visser. In that way Hendrik Bokaba then became a member of the security branch but Johannes Hlongwane, Warrant Officer Hlongwane was quickly to follow due to his age and we had to look for somebody to take his place. Hendrik Bokaba, he was then Captain, ...[intervention] MR DU PLESSIS Mr Chairman, the translation was wrong, she said he was then Captain but ...[intervention] MR LOOTS He was not at that stage Captain, he was Constable at that stage and he is now a Captain. MR DU PLESSIS Just Bokaba please. Thank you very much. MR LOOTS Bokaba came to me early on in 1987 and he indicated to me that there was a man with him in the singles quarters at the Mamelodi police station, somebody who stayed there with him. The man was identified to me as the applicant in this amnesty application, Ngo - he was identified by Bokaba. I indicated that Hendrik had to make an appointment so that the man can come and see me, so that we could have an interview. This interview did take place, Bokaba brought the man to my office in the Compal building on the 3rd floor where my offices were and also in the presence of Bokaba, I had an interview with Ngo so that he could be transferred to the security branch. The interview took approximately half an hour and the applicant Ngo, then left my office. Mr Chair, that was the first time in my life I ever saw Ngo and that was for half an hour, if it was a little longer I apologise but that was also the last time I ever saw him, I never saw him after that. I knew him for half an hour in my whole life. MR DU PLESSIS Colonel, what was the result of the interview, did you ask him to do something? MR LOOTS That is correct, I asked him to return to the unit commander or the commander of unit 19 where he was stationed and to hand in an application there with a view to a transfer to the security branch. MR DU PLESSIS Do you know or do you have any knowledge of such an application? MR LOOTS I never received such an application from the unit commander up until today. MR DU PLESSIS Did Mr Ngo ever become a member of the security branch formally? MR LOOTS Definitely not Mr Chair. MR DU PLESSIS Colonel, you have heard the evidence of Mr Ngo that he frequently went with Bokaba to get instructions from you and that he then reported to you, what do you say about that? MR LOOTS If that had been the case, he would have been with us at each and every conference, either in the morning or in the afternoon. He was never in my offices except for that half an hour. MR DU PLESSIS You also heard evidence Colonel, from certain bombings - alleged bombings that he was involved in with Bokaba and Selahla. MR LOOTS I have no knowledge of that. MR DU PLESSIS Do you see that as possible in any way? MR LOOTS No, it is highly unlikely - highly impossible. MR DU PLESSIS Colonel, you were not here when the evidence was led but you have knowledge of the fact that Mr Ngo also alleges that you were contacted by the Bloemfontein security branch to send Mr Ngo to Bloemfontein with regard to the murder of Mr Venter and that you then asked Bokaba to bring him to Bloemfontein and that Bokaba on your instructions, then brought him to Bloemfontein. What do you say about that? MR LOOTS Mr Chair, I never contacted Bloemfontein telephonically or any other way and I never Bokaba or ordered him to bring Ngo to Bloemfontein for any reason whatsoever. CHAIRPERSON I think what was put to you was not that you contacted Bloemfontein but that Bloemfontein contacted you, can you clear that up? MR LOOTS I heard Mr Chair, there was no member of the personnel of any rank who ever contacted me with any request whatsoever with regards to Ngo. MR DU PLESSIS You also heard the evidence that a certain Lieutenant Shaw allegedly contacted you. MR LOOTS No, Shaw definitely not contacted me Mr Chair. MR DU PLESSIS With regard to this incident? MR LOOTS No. MR DU PLESSIS Do you know Shaw? MR LOOTS Yes, I know him very well. MR DU PLESSIS Colonel, I would like you to comment on - from your perspective that is, on the possibility that somebody on the evidence of Mr Ngo who has not formally been transferred to the security branch, who had been a constable could be sent by you to Bloemfontein so that he could eliminate somebody. ADV DE JAGER The evidence was never that he had been sent to Bloemfontein as Mr Loots had been aware, to commit an elimination. MR DU PLESSIS I realise that Mr Chair. INTERPRETER ADV DE JAGER ...[inaudible] MR DU PLESSIS Mr Chair, the questions is actually concerning the probabilities that the Bloemfontein branch - let me put it this way, that the Bloemfontein branch would have put a request in view of the way in which the security branch operated in the country, that the Bloemfontein branch, with regards to a person in the position of Ngo would be sent to Bloemfontein in order to commit an elimination on a person whom he knew. What do you think the probabilities are? MR LOOTS I think it is completely unheard of, that is my personal view. I do not think that could ever have happened. JUDGE NGOEPE Why do you say that, they have worked with him before. MR LOOTS Ngo was not a member of the security branch Mr Chair, and I never had contact with him. JUDGE NGOEPE No, they had worked with him before according to him, in Bloemfontein. MR LOOTS I hear what you say Mr Chair. JUDGE NGOEPE May you should say: "I cannot comment on that", the Bloemfontein people should answer that question. MR LOOTS I agree with you, thank you very much Mr Chairman. MR DU PLESSIS Colonel, are there any or is there any course in the security branch that you will have to complete before you could join the security branch? MR LOOTS Specifically with regards to the security branch in the Northern Transvaal we had an internal course, an orientation course that was aimed at making the members aware of the various units where the units were involved and specifically in my case, how to work with informants with regards to giving them orders and to get information from them. There was also a basic security course that was offered by the main office or main branch but it was a bit more involved. MR DU PLESSIS Colonel, could you give the Committee some information about the security. What kind of security background did one have to join the security branch? MR LOOTS There was a top secret affidavit or statement on that memo. MR DU PLESSIS Thank you Mr Chairman, I have no further questions. Mr Chairman, maybe just the last questions. Do you verify the correctness of your affidavit MR LOOTS That is correct Mr Chairman. MR DU PLESSIS Thank you. Thank you Mr Chairman. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR DU PLESSIS EXAMINATION BY MR VISSER This interview with Mr Ngo, was it a successful interview, did you decide to appoint him? MR LOOTS I must tell the Committee, he did not make a bad impression on me. MR VISSER So, he did have a chance of getting the job? MR LOOTS The background search was done. MR VISSER The point is, we knew that he had a previous conviction for assault, did you know that? MR LOOTS ADV DE JAGER Mr Loots you are a disciplined people, would you please talk a bit slower that the people can translate you and interpret you? MR LOOTS Can I just make sure, from where should I commence? MR VISSER Mr Loots, thank you very much, I heard what you answered. There are no more questions Mr Chairman. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VISSER JUDGE NGOEPE Sorry, before you called for him to come for an interview, you had not sought from anywhere else some information about him? MR LOOTS No. JUDGE NGOEPE Was it only on the basis of the 30 minute interview that you said to him: "all right, go and lodge your application with your unit commander"? MR LOOTS That is correct Mr Chair. MR STANDER NO QUESTIONS BY MR STANDER ADV DE JAGER Colonel you needed somebody at that stage, is that correct? MR LOOTS Yes, I did. ADV DE JAGER And here you had an apparent good candidate who made a good impression on you, is that correct? MR LOOTS ADV DE JAGER You told him to go back to him commanding officer and apply? MR LOOTS ADV DE JAGER You never heard anything of him again? MR LOOTS No, I never heard anything from him again, I never saw an application. ADV DE JAGER He was brought there by Bokaba? MR LOOTS ADV DE JAGER Did you tell Bokaba or ask Bokaba what happened to this good person we saw yesterday? MR LOOTS ADV DE JAGER MR LOOTS I tried to explain to you how difficult it was to transfer people at that stage, I accepted that nothing would come of this application. ADV DE JAGER It was difficult to get transfers but it was also difficult for you to find somebody and one would accept that if you found somebody who is good, you would be eager to get that person. MR LOOTS JUDGE NGOEPE Did you not think of putting him on a sort of trial basis. I know he was under the command of somebody else but would you just have taken him without first putting him on a trial basis to observe him and see how he does his job? MR LOOTS Then there would still be a process that had to be followed, he had to be selected, his background had to be checked and in the case of a private person, if he had a previous employee and his school had to be checked etc., and somebody like Ngo, we would have had to contact his commanding officer. No person can be appointed on a trial basis in the security branch but if he had been cleared yes, then we could appoint him provisionally. JUDGE NGOEPE What I wanted to find out was, normally if all those things happened, would you just - I mean if you interviewed him and you got good reports from the people that he previously worked with, would he first have to be put on a trial basis before he is formally appointed in the security branch. MR LOOTS I hope I understand you correctly, that if he had been selected and if he had been found all right, he would have been appointed provisionally. ADV DE JAGER Did he need clearance to join the riot unit, the riot squad? MR LOOTS I do not know how that unit worked, I cannot tell you anything about their internal operations. ADV DE JAGER In his interview, did he tell you that he had been from 1983 at the security branch at Bloemfontein? MR LOOTS Whether or not dates were mentioned, I cannot tell you. He did tell me that he worked with the security branch as well as - he also told that to Bokaba who was in my presence. CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MEMANI As the Chair pleases. MR LOOTS That is correct. MR MEMANI And it follows then that if he had joined the riot unit that he would have had a clearance before? MR LOOTS The was a security clearance Mr Chair. MR MEMANI MR LOOTS There is a difference between security clearance and MR MEMANI The clearance that you get before you join the police force involves an enquiry into your background, the schools you went to, your family, whether you parents or any relatives of your have got any previous convictions and whether specifically, anyone one them have had any politically related criminal convictions. MR LOOTS MR MEMANI And the same enquiry is made in respect of people who want to join the security force, the security branch. MR LOOTS Yes, but much more intensive. MR MEMANI Now, during your interview with Mr Ngo, did he tell you about Coetzee? MR LOOTS No. MR MEMANI Did he tell you about Erasmus? MR LOOTS Mr Chair, I can make it easy, I think the only name he mentioned was that of Shaw. MR MEMANI Did he tell you that he had been working with Lieutenant Shaw as an informer in Bloemfontein and also as a policemen in a sense? MR LOOTS MR MEMANI MR LOOTS That is correct. MR MEMANI And Shaw would have told you that he was a very good candidate. MR LOOTS MR MEMANI And that opinion would have been based on his previous record with the Free State police? MR LOOTS We can accept that. MR MEMANI And that would have prompted you to be keen to recruit him? MR LOOTS Yes, if he had been that kind of material according to the people in Bloemfontein then he would have been an appropriate candidate. MR MEMANI And it is somewhat difficult to understand why, when you were short of a man in your unit - you said you were in an unfortunate position of having people who were about to retire, now you got a young zealous man who had worked with the police for 5 years or so and you just let the matter fizzle. MR LOOTS MR MEMANI MR LOOTS Mr Chair, with all respect, Advocate de Jager has already asked me that question and I replied that it would have been premature to run ahead of the process, to do anything before an approved application had been received. MR MEMANI Now, will you please have a look at Exhibit B66. MR LOOTS It is an SAP27, an enrolment. MR MEMANI MR LOOTS Riot squad head branch - yes, I see it. MR MEMANI Furthermore it says that later on he was at Hammanskraal head office. MR DU PLESSIS No Mr Chairman, that is not what it says. MR MEMANI MR DU PLESSIS MR MEMANI Well, is my learned friend the author of the record? MR DU PLESSIS CHAIRPERSON MR LOOTS That is quite right your Honour. MR MEMANI And what does the entry which says Hammanskraal, hoofkantoor? CHAIRPERSON MR MEMANI As the Chair pleases, I interpreted that as two entries. There is also a computer print-out - if I may have a loot at the index Mr Chairman, to get the document. ADV DE JAGER Page 68. MR MEMANI Have you got B68 now Colonel? MR LOOTS Yes, I do. MR MEMANI MR LOOTS Yes, I do see it. MR MEMANI Is it correct that that suggests that he was with the visible policing unit, unit 19 during the period 4 December 1986 onwards? MR LOOTS That is how I see it your Honour. MR MEMANI And then on the 18th of May 1987 he would have been transferred from unit 19 to the college at Hammanskraal? MR LOOTS I see that it says before that Human Resources Management. If I remember correctly, it would usually be where a person would go to some sort of course or if he would go for training, then it is indicated as Human Resources Management, that is the extent to which I can comment Mr Chair. MR MEMANI You see, Mr Ngo was surprised to see that there was any suggestion that he ever went back to Hammanskraal or that he ever underwent any training course during that period. MR LOOTS I cannot comment on that. MR MEMANI And that coincides with the period when he says that he was working with the security branch of the Northern Transvaal onwards. MR LOOTS That is what he says. MR MEMANI You also told us that before a person was taken into the Northern Transvaal security branch, he would undergone an orientation course which would have included training him on how to deal with informers and so on. MR LOOTS I said that. MR MEMANI And Mr Ngo himself, had handled informers and had been an informer for a period of at least four years prior to him being at Pretoria. MR LOOTS MR MEMANI Accordingly it would not have been necessary for Mr Ngo to be a useful - in order to be a useful member, to have undergone the orientation course. MR LOOTS I would probably have determined that if I followed up his application. MR MEMANI Mr Ngo will say that he was in fact - has said that he was in fact serving in the security branch. MR LOOTS Mr Chair, that man never ever, not for a second in his life worked for the security branch in the Northern Transvaal. I repeat, not for a second. MR MEMANI Mr Ngo came from the Free State or we are in the Free State, left the Free State and went to Pretoria and he says that he participated in the attacks of various house at Pretoria. For what reason would Mr Ngo have attacked residences in Pretoria? MR LOOTS MR MEMANI He has given me instructions and he has told the Committee that he did so in his capacity as a member of the security branch. MR LOOTS The previous question that you asked me Mr Chair - the previous question you asked me, I told you that the man never worked a second for the security police in the Northern Transvaal. MR MEMANI Are you suggesting that for no good reason, Mr Ngo implicates himself in arson, murder and attempted murder? MR LOOTS MR MEMANI MR LOOTS I cannot recall her as a person at all. When her name was mentioned here, I tried to place this person but neither her address nor her person I can remember, I cannot comment on that. MR MEMANI You also do not dispute that her house was burnt by Ngo, the applicant. MR LOOTS MR MEMANI You do not dispute and you cannot dispute that the house was burnt down by Ngo? MR LOOTS According to Ngo it was burnt. How can I comment on that? MR MEMANI And you cannot dispute that he did so in the company of Bokaba and Selahla? MR LOOTS Mr Chair, on what date was that house burnt down? MR MEMANI Mr Loots, I have asked you a question, you must answer the question. The question is, you cannot dispute that the house was burnt down by Ngo whilst he was in the company of Bokaba and Selahla. MR LOOTS That is what your client says, I cannot argue on that. MR DU PLESSIS CHAIRPERSON ...[inaudible] MR DU PLESSIS Yes, yes. MR MEMANI MR LOOTS If he says that, he burnt down the house. I was not at the scene, how would I know? MR MEMANI And you cannot dispute that the house was burnt down by Ngo who was in the company of Bokaba and Selahla. MR LOOTS Once again, that is what he said, how can I dispute that? I cannot comment on that. MR MEMANI MR LOOTS MR MEMANI You would then have had access about Louisa Mbongo if she was an activist? MR LOOTS But of course yes, I would have had such information. I can just not recall it, whether or not I did or did not. MR MEMANI And when confronted with the application of Mr Ngo, you would have gone to the records and to see whether there was ever any activist in Mamelodi who was Louisa Mbongo? MR LOOTS It has repeatedly been testified before this Amnesty Committee that all record have been destroyed on Regional and on National level. MR MEMANI And you would have been able to verify at least from a local police station, whether such an arson took place or not? MR LOOTS One could perhaps go to their records but I did not go to that trouble. MR MEMANI And you also do not dispute that Mbongo was a member of MYO? MR DU PLESSIS MR MEMANI Mr Chairman, the way I understand it, it would have been the investigating unit of the TRC which would have gone and sought to verify. MR MEMANI Mr Loots, you do not dispute that Louisa Mbongo was a member of MYO? MR LOOTS MR MEMANI And you do not dispute that her house was burnt down and as a result thereof Nono Girl organised a protest march against the burning of the house? MR LOOTS I cannot comment. MR MEMANI MR LOOTS Once again Mr Chair, I cannot comment on that. MR MEMANI Mr Loots, you have applied for amnesty? MR LOOTS MR MEMANI For what acts have you applied for amnesty? MR LOOTS I think my legal representative ought to answer that Mr Chair. MR DU PLESSIS MR LOOTS Can I also please have the documents before me? MR DU PLESSIS MR MEMANI MR LOOTS I would prefer to look it up. MR MEMANI But it was your acts Mr Loots. MR DU PLESSIS MR MEMANI If that is the case, then the objection is premature. CHAIRPERSON MR DU PLESSIS Yes Mr Chairman, you will in any event recall that Colonel Loots already gave evidence before the Committee about the Mutasi matter in which he was involved in and I can tell you know that that is one of the incidents that he does apply for, for amnesty. MR LOOTS "Murder of a policeman and his wife in Hammanskraal" "It was an attempted murder on Father Shipo Smangaliso Patrick Makatshwa" "Attempted murder on Advocate Ernst Dikgang Moseleki" "Transgression of the Act on explosives" "Transgression of the Act on arms and ammunition" "Arson" MR DU PLESSIS Is that all" MR LOOTS If I left something out, it was not my intention. MR DU PLESSIS Colonel, can I just to make sure, there certain other lessor charges or lessor things that you mentioned ...[intervention] MR MEMANI Mr Chairman, if my learned friend wants to ask questions, he must wait for the time to re-examine. CHAIRPERSON MR DU PLESSIS CHAIRPERSON It covers all the alternative verdicts on that charge, is that all you were trying to say? MR DU PLESSIS Yes, thank you Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON MR MEMANI And the arson, in respect of what building and whose building was it? MR LOOTS Can I just make sure from my legal representative. Can I respond to that question? MR DU PLESSIS ADV DE JAGER Excuse me, the interpreters just want to - it might be that we can have a short break. CHAIRPERSON COMMITTEE ADJOURNS ON RESUMPTION PHILLIPUS JOHANNES CORNELIUS LOOTS s.u.o. MR MEMANI ...[inaudible] that you applied for. MR LOOTS Mr Chairman, can I just make sure from my legal representative? May I continue? MR MEMANI Did you say that this house was in Mamelodi? MR LOOTS No, not the house, the church. I said it was in Mamelodi Mr Chair. MR MEMANI And did - do you know if Bokaba has applied for amnesty in respect of any of the matters you have applied for amnesty for? MR DU PLESSIS CHAIRPERSON JUDGE NGOEPE MR LOOTS That is correct Mr Chair. ADV DE JAGER There are no incidents of petrol bombings that you apply for? MR LOOTS It was specifically petrol bombs that were used in this incident but not any other incidents Mr Chair. MR MEMANI And where did the attempted murder of Dikgang Moseleki take place? MR DU PLESSIS Mr Chairman, I object against this really. This is going into the detail of the application, that application does not even concern a gross human rights violation. CHAIRPERSON ...[inaudible] MR DU PLESSIS MR MEMANI The simple question is, where was this? You were prepared to tell us that the church was in Mamelodi. MR DU PLESSIS I object Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON What is the question - where was what? MR MEMANI Where did the attempted murder on Dikgang Moseleki take place? Now Mr Chairman, I do not see the difference between telling me that the arson was in Mamelodi and telling me that the attempted murder was in Attridgeville or wherever it took place. CHAIRPERSON As I understood it, the purpose of this question was whether these offences were connected with any of the offences before us. MR MEMANI And if these things did take place in Mamelodi, then it is somewhat probable that Ngo, being a member of the security police, would have participated in certain illegal activities in Mamelodi or surrounding areas. MR DU PLESSIS CHAIRPERSON ...[inaudible] MR DU PLESSIS CHAIRPERSON The evidence that has been given and has not been contested. MR MEMANI CHAIRPERSON No. MR MEMANI So then, what is the point ...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON What you can accept is, we are satisfied that there are numerous instances where the security branch - members of the security branch committed criminal acts of violence in Mamelodi, including arson, murder, attempted murder. MR MEMANI And including Loots? CHAIRPERSON ...[inaudible] MR MEMANI And including Loots? MR DU PLESSIS ADV DE JAGER MR DU PLESSIS Mr Chairman, ...[intervention] ADV DE JAGER We can shorten the proceedings ...[inaudible] INTERPRETER ADV DE JAGER MR DU PLESSIS Mr Chairman, the nature of that application means that if he has to disclose it, he has to disclose the whole evidence surrounding that application. CHAIRPERSON MR DU PLESSIS Mr Chairman, would you then afford me the opportunity to go through the application, the contents of that application? ADV DE JAGER MR DU PLESSIS Yes, but ...[intervention] MR VISSER Unfortunately, I know nothing about it. MR DU PLESSIS MR MEMANI MR DU PLESSIS MR VISSER The place referred to in the application under paragraph 9(a) III, is Pretoria. CHAIRPERSON Was this to be carried out in Mamelodi? MR LOOTS No, at no stage your Honour. MR MEMANI Where was it carried out? CHAIRPERSON MR MEMANI And I said surrounding areas? Was it ...[intervention] MR DU PLESSIS Well Mr Chairman, for that purpose one has to go into the details of the "sameswering" and exactly what took place, what was discussed, what was planned, what happened, where it was planned etc., etc. MR MEMANI Look Mr Chairman, this is a waste of time, I proceed to the next set of questions. Now, do you in your application, implicate Bokaba and Selahla? MR DU PLESSIS CHAIRPERSON Surely it is relevant without you perusing the application. If he used them in other things to commit this type of offence, it is surely relevant as to whether they did so in the sensitives. MR DU PLESSIS CHAIRPERSON I cannot see that it should be restricted to the arson, the question that - the case that the applicant is seeking to make out is that this was a squad that was used by Colonel Loots to commit acts of violence. If it transpires that in his own amnesty application, he sets out details of similar types of acts of violence by the same squad, surely it is relevant. MR DU PLESSIS Well Mr Chairman, I then have no objection if Colonel Loots gives us an indication if "Slang" and Bokaba was involved in any of the applications that he has applied for. CHAIRPERSON MR MEMANI That is correct Mr Chair. MR LOOTS Mr Chair, I do mention their names. MR MEMANI And I want you to use the word "implicate" and not just "mention". MR LOOTS All right, I imply them in my amnesty application, I implicate them. MR MEMANI MR LOOTS That is correct, that is what I testified. MR MEMANI And Hechter was the person directly responsible for Mamelodi? MR LOOTS That is correct. MR MEMANI MR LOOTS MR MEMANI Is it Hlongwane? MR LOOTS Johannes Hlongwane. MR MEMANI H-l-o-n-g-w-a-n-e? MR LOOTS MR MEMANI If there was a shortage of personnel in Mamelodi, the person directly affected by that shortage would be Jacques Hechter, is that correct? MR LOOTS And myself as well. MR MEMANI But the person directly affected would be Jacques Hechter? MR LOOTS If you want to put it that way, yes but exactly to the same extent it would affect me as well. MR MEMANI And Jacques Hechter would be the person that Bokaba would have told about a potential candidate? MR LOOTS Not necessarily, it depended whether or not Hechter had been available or not, if he had been available he could have told him that. MR MEMANI MR LOOTS MR MEMANI Therefore, Jacques Hechter would have known about the shortage of staff? MR LOOTS But of course he would have known. MR MEMANI And Bokaba, as the person working directly under him would most probably have told Jacques Hechter about a new candidate ...[inaudible] was removed and working at Compal? MR LOOTS MR MEMANI And it is ...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON MR LOOTS He did work at Mamelodi you Honour, but never ever in an office, there was only one office and that was our office in the Compal building. MR MEMANI And did you discuss the recruitment of Ngo with Hechter? MR LOOTS I cannot remember ten years back whether or not I discussed this with him or not. MR MEMANI But you were short of staff and a person was available in his area. MR LOOTS MR MEMANI The overwhelming probability is that you did not discuss the matter with Hechter. MR LOOTS MR MEMANI And you did not discuss the matter with Hechter because Ngo was not recruited from Mamelodi barracks or unit 19 but because you came to know about him through Bloemfontein security branch. MR LOOTS I have testified under oath here that Bloemfontein at no stage contacted me telephonically or otherwise on you client or about your client. MR MEMANI And that is why you do not have sufficient explanation of why you did not follow the matter up when you were short staffed and you had what had impressed you within 30 minutes as a good candidate. MR LOOTS That is a statement that you are making, I cannot comment on that. MR MEMANI Now ...[intervention] JUDGE NGOEPE Sorry, what impressed you so much about this person you had never known before - within 30 minutes? MR LOOTS JUDGE NGOEPE All those organisations and their activities were matters of public knowledge, anybody could have known about them, they were not underground organisations. MR LOOTS That is so but specific persons were involved in management positions or in positions of control and he knew their names. JUDGE NGOEPE Yes but what - anybody, any student would have known about the names of those leaders of those student organisations, indeed any resident of any township would have known about the names of the leaders of those organisations. MR LOOTS JUDGE NGOEPE MR LOOTS That might be the case, it did impress me. JUDGE NGOEPE ...[inaudible] about his background? MR LOOTS JUDGE NGOEPE And did you then - did you contact Bloemfontein? MR LOOTS Never, I never contacted Bloemfontein. JUDGE NGOEPE You just accepted his word that he had been an informer in Bloemfontein, he had worked with the security police in Bloemfontein? MR LOOTS Mr Chair, I have explained. I sent him away after he had impressed me and after I thought that he had a chance. I explained that he had to put in application with his commanding officer and if I received the application there would have been a certain process and in that process, I would have followed this up with Bloemfontein, otherwise I would have done all this work and his application is not approved. JUDGE NGOEPE Now, before you ...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON MR LOOTS MR DU PLESSIS CHAIRPERSON JUDGE NGOEPE And at that time when you interviewed the applicant, already you knew Lieutenant Shaw? MR LOOTS Yes, I knew him, I knew most of the security men in the country. JUDGE NGOEPE I find it improbable that he would not have told you - he would not have mentioned Lieutenant Shaw during the interview when he told you about his own background. MR LOOTS JUDGE NGOEPE Well, did you contact Lieutenant Shaw? MR LOOTS No, I waited for his application as I had testified, I wanted to see if the application was approved. JUDGE NGOEPE Why go so far as to say: "Go and lodge an application with your commander", before you took the trouble to chat a little bit with Lieutenant Shaw to verify what this gentleman is telling you? MR LOOTS The application is the beginning or the start of a process. The information of the application had to be tested and had to be followed up and verified and if an application had been approved I would have done this. If I had done all the other things before the application was approved, I would have done things senselessly. or uselessly. JUDGE NGOEPE ...[inaudible] been even more embarrassing of you to say to him: "Go and lodge your application with your commander" and later you spoke to Lieutenant Shaw and he told you something different? MR LOOTS Then I would have had to deal with that. JUDGE NGOEPE Is that how you handled the matter? MR LOOTS CHAIRPERSON MR LOOTS Yes, my evidence specifically was, after he had put in his application and after it had been approved, I would have contacted Shaw. MR DU PLESSIS JUDGE NGOEPE But it is now no longer hypothetical that the applicant mentioned the name of Lieutenant Shaw to him. MR DU PLESSIS MR MEMANI As the Chair pleases. Now the ...[inaudible] which arises from your answers is, why would you contact Shaw after the approval of the application because the application - there must first be clearance and then the application is approved. MR LOOTS ADV DE JAGER If his commander - was it necessary that the unit commander would have to approve a transfer? MR LOOTS Yes, he would have to - the approval was with the main office. ADV DE JAGER Would transfer be able without an approval? MR LOOTS It could be but it not be the rule, it would be the exception. Whether or not he was approved, it had to be sent to the main office or head office, head office had the last say. MR MEMANI But Mr Loots, my question to you is, why wait for approval before you clear the man? MR LOOTS MR MEMANI But you did not answer the question. MR LOOTS I told you that the approval is only part of the process, if I had completed all these other things after contacting Shaw and making enquiries, I would in any case have to make a recommendation. The divisional commander would have to make a recommendation so everything else had to wait according to the procedure I followed, until I got the application to see if it had been approved or rejected. If it had been rejected I would have done all the other things without any use. MR MEMANI MR LOOTS MR MEMANI On what basis could the unit commander refuse that he be transferred to security branch? MR LOOTS Personnel shortage in the divisions, in regions and in units. MR MEMANI But we know that Mr Ngo actually worked with security branch. MR LOOTS In Bloemfontein according to him yes, but not for a second in Northern Transvaal. ADV DE JAGER If he had not applied, would it be possible for him to be transferred? MR LOOTS Yes, with negotiations but he still would have had to put in an application to make it formal, that is how I see it. MR MEMANI Did you speak to his unit commander at unit 19? MR LOOTS MR MEMANI But you were in desperate need of a man and here was a man who had impressed you and you did not contact his contacts in Bloemfontein and you never spoke to his unit commander? MR LOOTS MR MEMANI I put it to you that that is nonsensical, with due respect. MR LOOTS You can put to me whatever you want to, I can do my work as I see fit, if it worked for me like that. MR MEMANI Mr Chair, it seems that this a convenient time. CHAIRPERSON Well is it, we have a lot more work to get through. MR MEMANI I might ...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON How much longer are you going to be? MR MEMANI CHAIRPERSON MR MEMANI Now, we have heard evidence that Ngo worked at Bloemfontein and he left Bloemfontein for Ladybrand and later he went to Hammanskraal for training and on his return he went to Pretoria. Now, you - it is clear then that Ngo would not have had intimate knowledge of activists in Mamelodi, do you deny that? MR LOOTS No, he had knowledge of persons, not only in Mamelodi but also on national level. MR MEMANI MR LOOTS Can I answer Mr Chair? MR MEMANI Yes. MR LOOTS During the interview with myself, he named - he mentioned the names in management positions like Judge Ngoepe put the question to me, in the same line, the same direction as you now asked the question. MR MEMANI But the point is, how could he have known these things without having been active with the security branch if he came from Bloemfontein? MR LOOTS He probably made it his business. MR DU PLESSIS ADV DE JAGER What was the role of the anti-insurgents unit to which he belonged, section or unit 19? What was the role? MR LOOTS Mr Chair, visible policing in uniform as people are dressed in the back of the hall. Can one of you please stand up? That is veld wear or veld clothes. They wore something, a star, police star on their shoulders with a police star. They drove patrols in casspirs. ADV DE JAGER What were their functions, were they not riot control? MR LOOTS ADV DE JAGER Unrest control is referred to here - unit 19. If he had worked there, with whom would he have had contact? MR LOOTS With the commanding officer of unit 19. ADV DE JAGER Against whom would he have acted? MR LOOTS Mr Chair, can I answer it in the following way, the information we gained from our informant network, we gave this to the JOC offices, we told them that there would be an illegal march or a meeting or a boycott or whatever. We gave that information to the JOC office and unit 19 took cognisance of what would happend. They had to act in a preventative fashion so that from that meeting or boycott or march, public violence would not result. JUDGE NGOEPE Would you also give them the names of the leaders? MR LOOTS Of course the people who had arranged or organised these. You are 1000% correct Mr Chair. JUDGE NGOEPE I suppose the essence of the questions was, could he not have possibly known the names of all these so-called political activists by reason of the fact that he was in unit 19? MR LOOTS It is of course possible, I will concede to that. MR MEMANI Mr Loots, the riot unit and that constabular rank were mainly concernd with the physical suppression of unrest and not with matters of information? MR LOOTS MR MEMANI And the joint operation centre would have been a place where you would have members of intelligence from both the police and the army and members of the security branch, where they came together and exchanged information? MR LOOTS MR MEMANI It is absurd Mr Loots, to suggest that an office like the joint operation centre in Mamelodi would have had all the other ramifications of the security establishment except security policemen - security branch policemen. MR LOOTS MR MEMANI MR LOOTS MR MEMANI MR LOOTS Mr Chair, the SADF was divided or was sent to help the police with prevention of crime in Mamelodi, they had a permament base. There were tents that were errected on the mountainside and they were under the command of a certain Captain Boshoff with whom I often and frequently had contact. Like unit 19 they drove preventative patrols. MR MEMANI This joint operation centre, between who and who was co-operation? MR LOOTS Between the police, the SADF and of course if there was something that the other intelligence disciplines had to know, we would have reported that to them but as far as I know, this office was only manned by the SAP and the SADF, no other intelligence branches or offices. MR MEMANI Mr Loots, I put it to you that the security branch would have had a stronger interest in the passing of information between the various establishments of the security branch than other units of the police and would therefore have been represented more than the reaction unit for instance would have represented in such a structure. MR LOOTS MR MEMANI MR LOOTS JUDGE NGOEPE How often did you pass this information to the other sections? MR LOOTS JUDGE NGOEPE MR LOOTS Only if we visited them. JUDGE NGOEPE How often did that happen? MR LOOTS JUDGE NGOEPE Where did these other sections - where did you meet to pass information to them, did you meet in Mamelodi with them or at ...[intervention] MR LOOTS In my office. JUDGE NGOEPE Well sorry, what is this GOS - am I perhaps mistaken here, when you speak of GOS I thought you include the unit 19, the defence force ...[intervention} MR LOOTS It was an operational centre in Mamelodi at the police station but not involved in the normal things that the police officers of police did. JOC was centered there to see what intelligence we gave to them. JOC was in control of the defence force and also in control of unit 19. If we gave information to JOC, saying that there would be a riot or a meeting, JOC would inform unit 19 and the SADF. We did not inform the military, that was the job of the JOC. JUDGE NGOEPE And you met daily with GOS? MR LOOTS ADV DE JAGER Did you go to JOC on a daily basis or did Hechter go there or how did it work in practice? MR LOOTS CHAIRPERSON MR MEMANI Mr Loots, Mr Ngo told us that what occured at that office was that the various establishments exchanged information and that is more sensible than what you are trying to suggest that only the intelligence - only the security branch supplied information. MR LOOTS MR MEMANI MR LOOTS I hear what you are syaing. MR MEMANI And that priority crime would require that people be regularly present at that office of the JOC. MR LOOTS There were people throughout, there were people there 24 hours a day in the JOC office. It was manned every second of every day of every week. MR MEMANI And in contrast to you, Ngo is able to tell us that the people who represented security branch there were Selahla, himself and Bokaba. MR LOOTS MR MEMANI Now, ...[intervention] JUDGE NGOEPE I think or rather the impression I got was that Mr Ngo was saying that they participated in GOS, not so much that they were under the command of GOS. MR MEMANI That is correct, that is what I put to the witness Mr Chairman. MR LOOTS Represent perhaps, in the sense of transferring information. JUDGE NGOEPE MR LOOTS No, not at any stage. JUDGE NGOEPE But Colonel, you have just said that even Bokaba could attend the JOC. MR LOOTS No, he could transfer the information. JUDGE NGOEPE He had to be there in order to transfer information? MR LOOTS JUDGE NGOEPE MR LOOTS JUDGE NGOEPE Is it so that Bokaba at some times participated, took part in JOC meetings in the sense that he gave them information? MR LOOTS That might be possible Mr Chair, that is possible. CHAIRPERSON Where was the JOC? MR LOOTS It was at the police offices in Mamelodi. CHAIRPERSON The GOS offices? MR LOOTS That is correct. MR MEMANI CHAIRPERSON MR VISSER CHAIRPERSON Any of you other gentlemen wish to say anything in that regard? MR MEMANI ADV DE JAGER CHAIRPERSON COMMITTEE ADJOURNS