amntrans AMNESTY HEARINGS BLOEMFONTEIN MR BOKABA Assault/Torture of detained political activists in police holding cells on Fountains Street, Bloem. https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=54621&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/bloem/bloem4_ngo4.htm CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MEMANI: (cont) MR BOKABA Let me put it shortly. I said that it was early 1987, somewhere in February, if I remember well. MR MEMANI MR BOKABA MR MEMANI Yes. CHAIRPERSON MR BOKABA I understand that he could have known Sir, because he knew that Loots was the commanding officer. MR MEMANI Now, on your version, he saw Loots only once, is that correct? And he never saw him again. MR BOKABA That is my understanding. MR MEMANI MR BOKABA MR MEMANI And you also do not dispute that it was burnt down by Ngo and Selahla? MR BOKABA I dispute that Sir. MR MEMANI By whom was the house burnt on your version? MR BOKABA MR MEMANI Why would it be Ngo alone? MR BOKABA MR MEMANI And he also knows that Selahla was present when he burnt the house? MR BOKABA Selahla disputes that Sir. MR MEMANI How can you dispute that Selahla was present when the house was burnt down? MR BOKABA MR MEMANI Can you dispute it? MR BOKABA MR MEMANI MR BOKABA I say he was not there. MR MEMANI How do you know that he was not there? CHAIRPERSON MR BOKABA Yes, I believed him. MR MEMANI Now, why do you believe Selahla when he denies that he was not present? MR DU PLESSIS Mr Chairman, I want to object against that question. CHAIRPERSON This was a policeman who worked with him as a unit for how many years? MR MEMANI You can say about three Sir. CHAIRPERSON MR MEMANI CHAIRPERSON Carry on. Why ...[inaudible] MR BOKABA I worked with Selahla in Mamelodi. MR MEMANI MR BOKABA MR MEMANI And you obviously dispute that you were involved in the burning of the house? MR BOKABA MR MEMANI MR BOKABA MR MEMANI MR BOKABA MR MEMANI Selahla? MR DU PLESSIS But Mr Chairman ...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON MR DU PLESSIS MR MEMANI Mr Chairman, may I proceed? CHAIRPERSON MR MEMANI CHAIRPERSON MR MEMANI Now, can you deny that the house was burnt down by Ngo and Selahla? MR BOKABA CHAIRPERSON MR MEMANI As the Chair pleases. Now you cannot dispute - you do not dispute that Louisa Mbongo was member of MAYO, do you? MR BOKABA MR MEMANI And you do not dispute that her house was burnt down as a result of the fact that Nono, I beg your pardon - you do not dispute the fact that her house was burnt down as a result of the fact that she organised a sympathy protest against the burning house of the - against the burning of the house of Louisa Mbongo? MR BOKABA MR MEMANI And this house - these houses were petrol-bombed. Now, you also do not dispute that obviously, do you? MR BOKABA I know - I know nothing about those houses. Those are the allegations made by your client. MR MEMANI Now ordinarily, houses were petrol-bombed in the course of political conflict, do you dispute that? MR BOKABA May you please repeat your question Sir. MR MEMANI Ordinarily, house were petrol-bombed in the course of political conflict. MR BOKABA May you repeat your question Sir? MR DU PLESSIS Mr Chairman, is my learned friend putting that as a fact - is there going to be evidence before this Committee about that? I object against the question. CHAIRPERSON MR MEMANI MR BOKABA Do you say that I dispute that houses were burnt during the political unrest? ADV DE JAGER MR BOKABA Does he speak specifically about the houses which his client alleges that they were burnt of he speaks under general circumstances? ADV DE JAGER Under general circumstances. MR BOKABA Yes, houses were burnt under general circumstances. ADV DE JAGER Why? Because of political unrest or because of other reasons? MR BOKABA Let me answer that question in this way. ADV DE JAGER Yes, I ...[inaudible] received the ...[intervention] INTERPRETER MR BOKABA During the time of unrest, some of the houses were burnt because of political reasons. MR DU PLESSIS Mr Chairman, I just want to make the point that on page 45 of bundle A, Mr Ngo himself has said that he burnt a house because of a personal grudge and that application was withdrawn, so the statement made by my learned friend should be qualified for instance by an incident where his own client was involved. CHAIRPERSON MR MEMANI MR BOKABA Petrol-bombs were used in the township. MR MEMANI But Captain, why do you seem to have difficulty with dealing with what you understand to be the essence of the creation, that these petrol bombs were used in political - in the political context. MR BOKABA MR MEMANI MR BOKABA That is so, at times they were burnt because of personal grudges. MR MEMANI Now, which incidents do you know of where houses were petrol-bombed because of personal grudges? MR BOKABA Should I explain specific houses and the owners of those houses? MR MEMANI That is correct. MR BOKABA MR MEMANI And you only know about the one which Ngo refers to in his applications, in his application? MR BOKABA MR MEMANI MR BOKABA May you please explain your question Sir? Put your question clearly Sir. MR MEMANI MR BOKABA MR MEMANI The question is simple. Where petrol bombs were used in the course of arson, security branch would have an interest in the matter? MR BOKABA What kind of interest are you talking about? MR MEMANI But Captain, you are a Captain you know ...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON MR MEMANI That is the obvious interpretation. CHAIRPERSON MR MEMANI As the Chair pleases. Where houses were petrol-bombed, security branch would have an interest in the matter in the sense that they would have cause to investigate the matter? MR BOKABA Yes, they would investigate but let me explain it this way. There was a special task team which was stationed in Mamelodi police station. That special task team was working directly to investigate those kinds of incidents. Security branch was not part and parcel of the investigative team, those are the people who would investigate the dockets. MR MEMANI Now, we know ...[intervention] ADV DE JAGER Who was in charge of this team or who were the members of this team? MR BOKABA MR MEMANI Now, before you brought in the qualification, you conceded that special branch, rather security branch would have an interest in investigating the matter. In what sense would security branch investigate the matter? MR BOKABA MR MEMANI Now, it is obvious that the special investigative team would carry out the investigation insofar as the prosecution is concerned and that security branch would carry out the investigation insofar as the gathering of information relating to security matters is concerned. Do you dispute that? MR BOKABA Yes, the security branch would gather the information - not to investigate the case and to carry the docket. They would gather the information and then pass it over to the relevant people or structure, then those people would do the arrest, then they will take those people to court. MR MEMANI And on the other hand, security branch would also detain people on strength of the suspicion that they were involved in incidents like petrol-bombing houses? MR BOKABA To detain people because of taking part in the petrol-bombing was not part and parcel of the security branch, they would only take that information to that task team which I mentioned. There were a state of emergency where members of the security branch detained people because of the information they were able to gather. MR MEMANI Such as that persons were associated with certain political organisations and could possibly have been responsible for the petrol-bombing of certain houses and other properties? MR BOKABA They would do that because of the information at their disposal. MR MEMANI Now, why do you dissociate yourself from security branch because you were a member of the security branch, why do you say "we arrested them on the strength of such information if we had such information"? Why do you use the third person? MR BOKABA Let me explain it this way ...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON MR MEMANI CHAIRPERSON MR MEMANI Yes. CHAIRPERSON MR MEMANI That was a while ago Sir, later on he said that security branch did arrest people and they would arrest people on the strength of such information, they would detain them under the security branch and this is ...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON When there was a state of emergency they would detain people. MR MEMANI the security branch. CHAIRPERSON MR BOKABA During the state of emergency yes, I was one of those people who were detaining people. CHAIRPERSON And otherwise, when people had committed crimes when it was not during the state of emergency? MR BOKABA It was the work of the special investigative team during the other incidents. MR MEMANI But Mr Bokaba, there was security legislation in terms of which people were detained without trial, which was carried out by the security branch. MR BOKABA MR MEMANI But you know, that legislation was a matter of public knowledge. Since around 1976, it had become common knowledge that there was security legislation in terms of which people could be detained without trial and you were a constable, you should know about that. MR BOKABA I explained to you that during the state of emergency, we detained people. MR MEMANI MR BOKABA MR MEMANI And on your version, you and Selahla were the people primarily responsible for Mamelodi? MR BOKABA MR MEMANI And you do not have the slightest idea about these houses? MR BOKABA MR MEMANI MR BOKABA JUDGE NGOEPE Do you know of any houses that - in Mamelodi which were bombed by members of the security branch? MR BOKABA No English translation. JUDGE NGOEPE Do you know of any houses in Mamelodi which were bombed by members of the security branch? MR BOKABA JUDGE NGOEPE MR MEMANI MR BOKABA CHAIRPERSON ...[inaudible] Scheepers Marudi? JUDGE NGOEPE Did they tell you it had been bombed by the security branch? MR BOKABA Sorry? JUDGE NGOEPE Did they tell you it had been bombed by the security branch? MR BOKABA Did they tell me? JUDGE NGOEPE Yes. MR BOKABA Yes, they did tell me. JUDGE NGOEPE When did they tell you that? MR BOKABA I heard later from Captain Hechter. JUDGE NGOEPE When was that? MR BOKABA That was after a long time. MR MEMANI Why do you say in your affidavit that "as far as my knowledge goes, no houses as far as my knowledge goes, were bombed by members of the security branch" MR BOKABA I was talking about myself. MR MEMANI Page, sorry - page 45, para 3.4 "I categorically deny 3.4 that any of the houses where I was supposedly involved as mentioned in his application, were ever bombed by myself or as far as my knowledge goes, by members of the security branch, Northern Transvaal" You are referring to ...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON Where I was personally involved. MR MEMANI You are referring only to the two houses in question. MR BOKABA No. MR MEMANI The houses mentioned by the applicant. MR BOKABA I explained that I heard later about those houses. I MR DU PLESSIS But Mr Chairman, in his ...[intervention] MR MEMANI I understand the context different, I understand you. I think I must take back my question, I misunderstood the paragraph. MR BOKABA Thank you Sir. MR DU PLESSIS JUDGE NGOEPE MR DU PLESSIS MR MEMANI MR BOKABA Yes, that is correct. MR MEMANI In respect of what ...[intervention] ADV DE JAGER MR MEMANI And for what acts have you applied for amnesty? MR BOKABA That is assault. MR MEMANI Assault on who? MR BOKABA The same person called Scheepers Marudi. MR MEMANI Yes? MR BOKABA MR MEMANI Now, where did these incidents take place? MR BOKABA MR DU PLESSIS Mr Chairman, before we go into all the detail of where Makupi and Maake and Sefola were arrested and where they were taken, I have the amnesty application of Captain Bokaba in front of me. You have heard evidence about this incident. The evidence in his application accords with the evidence you have heard. The place was Hammanskraal, close to Pienaars Rivier ...[intervention] MR BOKABA MR DU PLESSIS You would remember that. And then ...[intervention] MR MEMANI MR DU PLESSIS application of Captain Bokaba and the other incident ...[intervention] MR MEMANI MR DU PLESSIS The incident, Makupi, Sefola and Maake. That was the one incident ...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON The murder. MR DU PLESSIS Yes, the murder, the murder. The murder happened there. And then there was the murder of the unknown ANC cadre which you also have heard evidence of Captain van Vuuren and Captain Hechter and that took place in Boputhatswana. MR MEMANI INTERPRETER MR DU PLESSIS CHAIRPERSON MR MEMANI That is correct Sir. MR DU PLESSIS MR MEMANI Now, you told us that these people were arrested in Mamelodi, is that correct? MR BOKABA I said not all of them were arrested in Mamelodi, not all of them were arrested from Mamelodi. MR MEMANI Now, who was arrested in Mamelodi? MR BOKABA MR MEMANI And these people were associated with activities in Mamelodi? MR BOKABA Do you want me to explain the cases in detail or what? MR MEMANI Look, the ...[intervention] JUDGE NGOEPE I think the question is, these people were political activists in Mamelodi engaged in some - in political activities of some kind in the area of Mamelodi where you worked. MR BOKABA Yes, Scheepers Marudi was an activist in Mamelodi. I think Makupe and Maake were activists in Mamelodi. ADV DE JAGER Was Mr Ngo involved in any of these incidents, the arrest of Maake or Sefola or Makupi or Scheepers Marudi? MR BOKABA I thank you for that question because I was asking myself that question, that if Ngo was working with me, I believe that he could have made an application for amnesty in regard to those acts. ADV DE JAGER MR BOKABA No, Sir. ADV DE JAGER MR BOKABA Thank you Sir. CHAIRPERSON Was Selahla involved in these ... [intervention] MR BOKABA Selahla. CHAIRPERSON Selahla? MR BOKABA Yes, he did. CHAIRPERSON The two of you were both involved. MR BOKABA Yes, the two of us. MR MEMANI Was Loots also involved? MR BOKABA Loots was not present. MR MEMANI Did you get your commands from Loots to do these things? MR DU PLESSIS CHAIRPERSON This surely relates to the credibility of your previous witness? MR DU PLESSIS Yes, but Mr Chairman, we ...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON MR DU PLESSIS CHAIRPERSON The question did not relate to Fikter, it related to Loots as to whether Loots gave orders. MR DU PLESSIS Yes, but Mr Chairman, I think the question went further Mr Chairman, but if my learned could repeat the question perhaps then we could deal with that. MR MEMANI Did you get your orders from Loots? MR BOKABA No, Sir. MR MEMANI Who did you get your orders from? MR DU PLESSIS ADV DE JAGER MR BOKABA MR MEMANI Now, you mentioned three incidents, did you get your instructions on each case from Hechter? MR BOKABA MR MEMANI MR BOKABA We received instructions from Captain Hechter in all three incidents. MR MEMANI And besides these incidents, are there any other incidents for which you might have to apply for amnesty in respect of which you made a mistake of not applying earlier on? MR DU PLESSIS Mr Chairman, I object against this question. CHAIRPERSON MR MEMANI On the basis of my instructions. CHAIRPERSON MR MEMANI MR BOKABA I made application for amnesty for the three things which I took part in and there are no other incidents which I took part in. MR MEMANI Besides yourself, Selahla and Hechter, who else was involved in these incidents? MR BOKABA MR MEMANI Yes. MR DU PLESSIS Mr Chairman, may I beg leave to hand the amnesty application to Captain Bokaba, then he can read to you from the amnesty application exactly who was present in what incident. MR BOKABA MR MEMANI MR BOKABA MR MEMANI MR BOKABA That is Hechter, Paul van Vuuren, Joma Masela and Danny Selahla. CHAIRPERSON MR BOKABA CHAIRPERSON Carry on. MR MEMANI Mr Bokaba, do you know if the applicant had been a member of the security branch at Bloemfontein prior to his involvement with Pretoria? MR BOKABA MR MEMANI MR BOKABA Yes, I used to see him at the barracks, I was staying with him at the barracks. MR MEMANI Did you see him at the barracks right through 1987 up to 1989? MR BOKABA I would not say all the time. MR MEMANI But he was living there during 1987 to 1989? MR BOKABA MR MEMANI MR BOKABA Yes, I was staying at the barracks. Yes, I was staying there at the barracks. MR MEMANI MR BOKABA MR MEMANI MR BOKABA He came to me in - he approached me in 1987 to tell me that he wants to work at the security branch. We met on that incident. MR MEMANI And during 1988, he was living at the barracks? MR BOKABA MR MEMANI During 1989, he was living at the barracks? MR BOKABA MR MEMANI MR BOKABA I was staying at the barracks but at times I was sleeping in the township. MR MEMANI MR STANDER And you will recall Mr Chairman, that one, evidence has been placed before the Committee that he was on suspension at the time, from the 3rd of January 1989. He was in Bloemfontein admitted to hospital from the 5th to the 7th of January 1989 and he committed the murder on the 3rd of February 1989, so Mr Chairman, if the question is going to be on the basis of a statement that he lived in the barracks in Pretoria in 1989, we would have an interest in that. MR MEMANI MR STANDER MR MEMANI Now, will the witness answer the question Sir. CHAIRPERSON What the counsel asked is, are you putting that Ngo lived there for the whole of 1989? MR MEMANI CHAIRPERSON MR MEMANI It is an unfortunate misunderstanding but the fact of the matter is that prior to his arrest, he was permanently resident at the barracks in Mamelodi. ADV DE JAGER Now, could you - you know when your client has been arrested, could you put it to the witness: "up to this day in February or March or April or whenever, he permanently lived at the barracks"? MR MEMANI As the Chair pleases. Now during 1987 up to 1989, Ngo - early 1989, Ngo lived at the barracks. MR BOKABA MR MEMANI You see, earlier on you told us that you lived with Ngo. MR BOKABA I said so, yes, then I said February 1987 he approached me that he wants to work at the security branch but from there I cannot remember well and I cannot dispute that he was staying at the barracks. JUDGE NGOEPE By the way, when you met - when Mr Ngo approached you for the very, very, very, first time, did you know him before? MR BOKABA I used to see him before but ...[intervention] JUDGE NGOEPE Had you spoken to each other before? MR BOKABA Not at all. JUDGE NGOEPE Thank you. MR MEMANI MR BOKABA Yes, I said that I saw him then, then the following day I made an appointment with Colonel Loots, then I returned, then I took him to Colonel Loots - that is so. MR MEMANI And this was during February 1997 - rather 1987? MR BOKABA That is February 1987. MR MEMANI And you told us that your application took three months to process from the time you had applied to join the security branch? MR BOKABA I told you that it is so. MR MEMANI And according to the record, Mr Ngo left reaction unit in May 1987? MR BOKABA MR DU PLESSIS Yes, Mr Chairman ...[intervention] MR MEMANI MR DU PLESSIS MR MEMANI Now, that would have - that is exactly three months from the time when you spoke to Ngo up to the time when he says that he joined security branch. MR BOKABA You said he left security - he left the unit in 1987, according to the records? MR MEMANI In May, yes. MR BOKABA Where did you go according to the records? MR MEMANI MR DU PLESSIS Mr Chairman in all fairness, my learned friend should put to the witness that on 18 May 1987, according to the record, he went to the college Hammanskraal Human Resources Management - according to this record on 18 May 1987. MR MEMANI Now, do you see the coincidence? MR BOKABA What in what? What is coinciding with what? MR MEMANI That it took three months to process your application to join security branch and that it took ...[intervention] MR BOKABA I, I ...[intervention] MR MEMANI MR DU PLESSIS MR BOKABA I see it here, it says 1985 on May, Human Resources Management, Hammanskraal College. MR MEMANI And you say that you do not know where Ngo would have been at the time - you do not know when Ngo left barracks as he did? MR BOKABA MR MEMANI MR BOKABA MR MEMANI And that he did not go to the college but instead he went to join security branch? MR BOKABA CHAIRPERSON Gentlemen, I asked last week whether enquiries could be made to ascertain the accuracy of various records and whether, with all the voluminous records that police normally keep, such as pocket books which they fill in and which are kept thereafter, whether something could not be done to ascertain what records there were as to where the applicant was for this period and I wonder whether enquiries have been made at Hammanskraal for example, to ascertain whether there was such a course that started in May 1987 and matters of the nature because it seems to me an awful lot of time is being spent, which may prove to be entirely valueless if there are accurate records showing where in fact the applicant was at the relevant time. MR DU PLESSIS and what he says. Furthermore, Captain Bokaba arrived at Pretoria a bit late on Friday to be able to get hold of the records. Colonel Loots and I arrived in Pretoria around about - just after 4 - we were also not able to obtain insight of the records. Colonel Loots is however today busy trying to find as much information as possible for the Committee and hopefully we will be able to present you with all the evidence that we could succeed in obtaining during this week. We will do that later in the week Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON I would also like to suggest that the TRC investigators be asked to do what they can because it may well be that they find it easier to be given now official access to records and copies of records than persons who are involved in possible transgressions. And I would urgently request that, that be done because on the applicants version, this is obviously a falsification of his record and if that is so, it may be that people are reluctant to come forward now. MR DU PLESSIS Yes Mr Chairman, that would obviously be of help. We will do whatever we can to assist the Committee and my attorney and I will probably be back around about Thursday or Friday to present you with whatever information we can get. MR MEMANI whole: "You say that you deny that you and Constable Selahla were involved in a petrol-bombing in the Mamelodi district where the applicant was present. The applicant was never a member of the security branch, Northern Transvaal and as such was never a trusted member of the operations of the security police, Northern Transvaal branch at the time". CHAIRPERSON If you look at paragraph 6.6, it may perhaps clarify your thoughts. MR DU PLESSIS MR MEMANI MR BOKABA I never worked with Ngo in the rest of my life. Let me just answer it bluntly as such, I never worked with Ngo in my life and Ngo was never a member of the security branch of the Northern Transvaal. MR MEMANI Now Mr Bokaba, are you suggesting that Ngo would have gone out on a frolic of his own to go and bomb houses belonging to activists in Mamelodi? MR BOKABA MR MEMANI MR BOKABA those houses. MR MEMANI Now, which houses did he say that he burnt together with you and later said it was with his friends? MR BOKABA MR MEMANI ADV DE JAGER MR MEMANI The next answer was then that "I say so because initially he said that he burnt the houses with us and later on he said he burnt the houses with his friends" MR BOKABA MR MEMANI Now, this is what I want you to clarify, where do you take that from? MR BOKABA That is the evidence he gave before this Commission, even my counsel asked him: "why you withdrew or you changed your statement"? MR MEMANI Now, you are referring to words he said at page 13? MR BOKABA Which bundle Sir? MR MEMANI MR BOKABA I have it before me. MR MEMANI And he then - when he was told by the TRC to give more details as to the state - as to these statements, mentioned that you were not involved in the burning of the house of Rebecca. MR BOKABA MR MEMANI Yes. JUDGE NGOEPE MR MEMANI The point that I wish to make to him is that when he was given the opportunity to explain his statements, he then explained the statement and he exculpates you from the bombing of the house of Sandra Mathabathe. JUDGE NGOEPE with that but then what is the point beyond that? MR MEMANI The point is that the applicant did not set out forcibly to implicate him. MR BOKABA MR MEMANI You deny involvement in ...[intervention] MR BOKABA I deny involvement in any way. MR MEMANI MR DU PLESSIS JUDGE NGOEPE I think Mr Ngo said, consider that he did make a mistake. I know he took a lot of trouble before he made such a concession but he did eventually concede that he made a mistake here. MR DU PLESSIS JUDGE NGOEPE How much more of an admission do you want Mr du Plessis? I mean, if the witness himself, under oath admitted that, well I made that mistake ...[intervention] MR DU PLESSIS MR MEMANI Now what is your comment to the fact that as soon as the opportunity arose for Mr Ngo to ...[inaudible] yourself, he did so and he did say that you were not involved in the burning of the house of Sandra? MR BOKABA JUDGE NGOEPE MR BOKABA MR MEMANI ADV DE JAGER Mr Memani, on page 43 of Bundle A, your client states "during 1987 to 1988, while I was based at Mamelodi police station as a member of reaction unit 19, working together with members of the security branch" "as a member of reaction unit 19, working together with members of the security branch" Perhaps you could think it over during the adjournment and then advise us as to your view on this. MR MEMANI CHAIRPERSON COMMITTEE ADJOURNS HENDRIK BOKABA (s.u.o.) MR MEMANI MR BOKABA I know him Sir. MR MEMANI MR BOKABA I know Chris Ribero Sir. MR BOKABA I never investigated his case. MR MEMANI MR BOKABA MR MEMANI Who monitored Chris Ribero? MR DU PLESSIS Mr Chairman, what is the relevance of this, with respect? MR MEMANI CHAIRPERSON I hope it is. You will remember that you told us last week that you would be 30 minutes to an hour this morning. MR MEMANI As the Chair pleases. MR BOKABA MR MEMANI MR BOKABA MR MEMANI Solit Silwane was your informer. MR BOKABA MR MEMANI Solit Silwane is the person you got information about Chris Ribero from. MR BOKABA MR MEMANI And Solit Silwane was an informer you saw jointly with Ngo and Selahla. MR DU PLESSIS MR MEMANI My instructions are that evidence is forthcoming, attempts are being made to locate people who might corroborate this. MR BOKABA MR MEMANI MR BOKABA MR MEMANI And my instructions further that you, Ngo and Selahla often raided people together. MR DU PLESSIS Mr Chairman, may I just make sure. My learned friend says there will be evidence ...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON MR DU PLESSIS Yes, he said, his instructions are, Mr Chairman. Then I want to make the point that, that was never testified but I will leave it in your hands to allow the question or not. MR MEMANI Now, what is your answer? MR BOKABA I never worked with Ngo. CHAIRPERSON MR MEMANI Sir, it is not my strategy to trick witnesses, what I do is to put the version that I hope will be established or lay a basis for argument. MR BOKABA Yes, I understand English although it is not my mother tongue, I understand it like any other person whose English is not his mother tongue. ADV DE JAGER MR MEMANI And you also understand Afrikaans? MR BOKABA MR MEMANI You are satisfied that the interpreters are interpreting your evidence correctly? MR BOKABA MR MEMANI And at any stage when you have problems with the interpretation, you have the right to inform the Committee that the interpretation is not correct. MR DU PLESSIS MR MEMANI No, I can hear both, he can also hear both. Now Mr Bokaba, you say at paragraph 6.2: "the applicant contacted me with the request that he wanted to join the security force police at the time, well knowing that I was the contact person if he was at all interested" MR BOKABA That is true because he had an interest and then he came to me, knowing that I was the only member of the security branch who was staying at the barracks and because he had the interest to join the security branch, he came to me. MR MEMANI And on his version, he did not apply but he was just called up so to speak and he was made to work with security branch. MR BOKABA According to him? What I said is that he came to me at the barracks, he contacted me and then he told me that he had an interest to join the security branch. What he said to you, he told you that but I know that he contacted me at the barracks. MR MEMANI MR BOKABA MR MEMANI These people had a system that assisted him in joining the police force despite the fact of his previous convictions, they had worked with him, they had even provided him with a gun before he was trained in the use of firearms. MR BOKABA MR MEMANI They were White, had more influence that yourself and they had much higher ranks than you. MR BOKABA MR MEMANI Those were his contacts in the security branch. MR BOKABA MR MEMANI You know by the same token, what you say at 6.3 that "at that time the applicant informed you that before he joined the police, he had been an informer of the security branch, Bloemfontein and I thought that it was correct that he should be granted the opportunity to maybe join the security police at that time" is also a lie. MR BOKABA MR MEMANI Now, he told - I think it is - okay. At paragraph 6.4 you say that "I contacted my direct commander, Colonel Flip Loots who granted the applicant an interview in respect of his willingness and participation in the security police" Now, you heard evidence here that your direct commander would have been Hechter but that you sometimes reported to Flip Loots. MR BOKABA Which way did I explain? MR MEMANI MR BOKABA MR MEMANI Yes, but then the team leader would be your direct commander and then Loots as you say, was the section commander. MR BOKABA MR MEMANI Well, if Loots - let me put it like this, what type of person would you have referred to as a direct commander and how would you distinguish your team leader from your direct commander? MR BOKABA I would say my team leader is my commander in the field. MR MEMANI And that is the person who gives you commands directly? MR BOKABA MR MEMANI MR BOKABA You say if Hechter and Loots were present, what happened? MR MEMANI If Hechter and Loots are both present and none of them is on leave, you take your commands directly from Hechter. MR BOKABA MR MEMANI MR BOKABA MR MEMANI MR BOKABA MR MEMANI What difficulty have you got with conceding that the person you would ordinarily take commands from, was Hechter? MR BOKABA CHAIRPERSON MR MEMANI CHAIRPERSON But not on the version that Mr Ngo has given? MR MEMANI That is correct. Now, what difficulty have you got in conceding that from the nature of the command structure, the person you would take commands directly from usually, on you version would have been Hechter. MR BOKABA MR MEMANI Look, what in essence I want to suggest to you is that you in fact refer to Flip Loots as your direct commander because that is how in fact you operated. MR BOKABA MR MEMANI And on the version that you have given there seems to be no suggestion at all that Hechter would have been active with you and Selahla. CHAIRPERSON MR MEMANI regard to his version, there is no more than what was said by Loots that Hechter was the commander, the commander was in fact Loots and that is - that corroborates Ngo. CHAIRPERSON Ngo never knew Hechter, did he? MR MEMANI Yes, he did not know Ngo - he did not know Hechter because Hechter ...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON INTERPRETER CHAIRPERSON MR MEMANI CHAIRPERSON ...[inaudible] this information for us. Will you continue? MR MEMANI As the Chair pleases. I understood it to be the evidence of Loots. MR BOKABA MR MEMANI You see, but you referred to him - you referred to him not as a section commander there but as a direct commander. MR BOKABA MR MEMANI And you did not at 6.4, suggest that Hechter would have been on leave at the time and hence you had to speak to Loots? MR BOKABA Yes, there is no ...[inaudible] I explained that he was MR MEMANI And if Ngo had come to know about your activities - about the security branch merely from being a member of reaction unit, one would have expected him to ...[inaudible] and think that Hechter was the person who was your direct commander? MR BOKABA MR MEMANI MR DU PLESSIS MR MEMANI CHAIRPERSON know that Loots was lurking in the background. MR BOKABA I explained that he could have known Flip Loots because I took him to Flip Loots for an interview because he had an interest to join the security branch, that is why he did not know Hechter that he was a team leader of Mamelodi. I hope that if he worked with us at any stage - even my application for amnesty, he could have made the similar applications. MR MEMANI I put it to you that you were involved in the activities in which Mr Ngo has implicated you. MR BOKABA MR MEMANI You see, you did not apply for these things because you did not know that something was simmering at Grootvlei, you had forgotten about Ngo. MR BOKABA I never worked with Ngo. What he did, he did those by himself in my absence. MR MEMANI You, Selahla and - you, Selahla and Loots conspired to apply for amnesty in respect of prominent events or events involving prominent people. MR BOKABA MR MEMANI And ...[intervention] MR DU PLESSIS MR MEMANI MR DU PLESSIS MR MEMANI As the Chair pleases. Now, Mr ...[intervention] MR DU PLESSIS Mr Chairman, the question as I remember it ...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON He was asked if he had heard of places being burnt and he then said he had heard of the church being burnt from Colonel Loots. MR MEMANI As the Chair pleases. Now, besides yourself and Selahla, who were the other Black policemen who were involved in the security branch? CHAIRPERSON Where, please? MR MEMANI In Pretoria, in the Pretoria area. MR BOKABA People who were members? Do you mean people who were members of the security branch in Pretoria? MR MEMANI Yes. MR BOKABA MR MEMANI Black people? MR BOKABA Yes, Black people, I did mention them. MR MEMANI Now, will you enumerate the other Black people who were involved in security branch in the Pretoria area? MR BOKABA Should I repeat again? MR MEMANI Yes. MR BOKABA MR MEMANI And there was not bad blood between yourself and Ngo? MR BOKABA MR MEMANI And today, if you admitted that you were involved in these activities, you would be in trouble with the law? MR BOKABA MR MEMANI MR BOKABA MR MEMANI MR BOKABA I do not know those people myself. MR MEMANI conviction and sentenced for a long period. MR BOKABA MR MEMANI Except that we know that the security branch was influential at the time and often they got away with most heinous crimes. MR BOKABA MR MEMANI CHAIRPERSON MR MEMANI ADV DE JAGER How long would you require? MR MEMANI CHAIRPERSON Go and do it. MR MEMANI Yes. CHAIRPERSON Anyone else who desires to put any questions? MR BRINK No thanks. MR DU PLESSIS I have no questions. NO QUESTIONS BY MR DU PLESSIS MR STANDER I have no questions thank you, Mr Chair. NO QUESTIONS BY MR STANDER MR VISSER Visser on record. Mr Chairman, we have no questions, thank you. NO QUESTIONS BY MR VISSER JUDGE NGOEPE After Mr Ngo approached you as you say he did, that he was interested in joining the security branch, you felt that you should take him to Loots? MR BOKABA That is so. I explained to him that I will arrange for an appointment with Colonel Loots. JUDGE NGOEPE Did you have personal about him yourself as to his suitability or otherwise? MR BOKABA JUDGE NGOEPE MR BOKABA JUDGE NGOEPE CHAIRPERSON He said ...[inaudible] MR BOKABA JUDGE NGOEPE So, with regard to involvement in the security police in Bloemfontein, all he told you or all that you knew before you went to see Captain Loots was that Mr Ngo had been an informer? MR BOKABA Yes, that is correct. ADV DE JAGER How many people stayed at the barracks at Mamelodi? MR BOKABA The barracks at Mamelodi was a double-storey building. There were a lot of divisions, murder and robbery squad, liquor squads - those who came from outside Mamelodi stayed there. I can say more than 500 approximately 500, we were quite a lot. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. MR BOKABA Thank you Sir. MR DU PLESSIS WITNESS EXCUSED MR DU PLESSIS CHAIRPERSON Very well Mr du Plessis, you and your attorney are excused for the moment. MR DU PLESSIS Thank you Mr Chairman MR DU PLESSIS AND ATTORNEY EXCUSED