amntrans AMNESTY HEARING 1988-01-19 BLOEMFONTEIN 1 MR NGO AND MR MOTSAMAI https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=54622&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/bloem/bloem5_2ndngo1.htm CHAIRPERSON Mr Stander, would you like to explain what the position is at the present time? MR STANDER CHAIRPERSON Now, who are they and who is present today? MR STANDER CHAIRPERSON So there are four of them here today? The others had been notified but are not present I understand. MR STANDER Yes, that is the case. CHAIRPERSON Would you please ask the victims to stand up. Could one of them - have you heard what your attorney has said? VICTIMS CHAIRPERSON INTERPRETER The victims are nodding their heads. CHAIRPERSON And I understand that you have been told that the leader of evidence, Mr Brink, is prepared to act on your behalf. VICTIMS (inaudible) CHAIRPERSON Well, who is going to represent you? VICTIMS (inaudible) CHAIRPERSON VICTIMS (inaudible) CHAIRPERSON Can you afford to pay him? VICTIMS No. CHAIRPERSON And the Legal Aid Board is not prepared to pay him what he wants so he is not going to act any further, that is in fact your position. VICTIMS (inaudible) CHAIRPERSON Pardon? VICTIMS We are not ...(inaudible) CHAIRPERSON You are not what? VICTIMS We are not going to be represented in this hearing. CHAIRPERSON You have been offered representation by Mr Brink, which will cost you nothing. VICTIMS But I think the TRC should have asked: are we satisfied about what will the ...(inaudible), whether are we satisfied or not. CHAIRPERSON You will have no say in the matter, that is a matter between him and the Legal Aid Board. He has chosen to withdraw, you cannot force him to continue if he is not satisfied with the payment that he has been offered. VICTIMS So, now ...(inaudible) CHAIRPERSON You want to withdraw? Very well. VICTIMS Yes, we withdraw. CHAIRPERSON Very well. MR VISSER Mr Chairman, may I suggest that perhaps we ask these people before they leave, to give us their names so that we know exactly who they are. CHAIRPERSON MR STANDER CHAIRPERSON Thank you. The second question that must be decided now, is the question of Mr Mthembu. What is your position Mr Mthembu? MR MTHEMBU CHAIRPERSON Are the applicants here? MR MTHEMBU They are here Mr Chair. CHAIRPERSON Perhaps they better come and sit in their proper places. MR BRINK CHAIRPERSON Certainly. MR NGO CHAIRPERSON And have you appointed someone else to act on your behalf? MR NGO CHAIRPERSON And do you agree that Mr Mthembu should be allowed to withdraw? MR NGO CHAIRPERSON Now, was it only Mr Ngo, or is it Mr Motsamai as well? MR MTHEMBU As well as Motsamai Mr Chair. CHAIRPERSON Mr Motsamai, do you also know that? MR MOTSAMAI I know that Sir. CHAIRPERSON And you also agree to it? MR MOTSAMAI I agree. CHAIRPERSON Mr Mthembu, you are excused from further attendance. MR MTHEMBU Thank you Mr Chair. MR MTHEMBU EXCUSED CHAIRPERSON Thank you. MR STANDER Mr Chairman, the names of men are Shadrack Oliphant, Matthews Mzuzwana, Tandi Jacobs, Khuzane Dwayi ...(intervention) JUDGE NGOEPE Repeat that please. MR STANDER ADV DE JAGER MR STANDER Mzuzwana. CHAIRPERSON He has filed an affidavit? MR STANDER Yes. CHAIRPERSON Teko Oliphant, Matthews Mzuzwana and Molefe had filed affidavits? MR STANDER CHAIRPERSON And the others are Jacobs and Khuzane Jwayi? MR STANDER And the last one is Annie Phahlane. CHAIRPERSON There were only five of them there? MR STANDER CHAIRPERSON What about Molefe? MR STANDER CHAIRPERSON MR STANDER Yes, Sir. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. MR STANDER Can I ask to be excused please? CHAIRPERSON Certainly. Sorry, I just remembered that we were asked - as you may recollect, that where names were used, we would spell them out. Could you perhaps spell those last two for the benefit of the interpreters and for the recorders? MR STANDER The second last one is Khuzane - K-h-u-z-a-n-e J-w-a-y-i and Annie Phahlane - A-n-n-i-e P-h-a-h-l-a-n-e. MR STANDER EXCUSED CHAIRPERSON Thank you. MR MEMANI CHAIRPERSON Certainly. MR MEMANI The withdrawal of the victims complicates matters a bit for us. In a way we have an interest in their evidence which is independent of whether they are victims ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON MR MEMANI You will recall that the various policemen implicated have objected to the applications of the applicants and in their objections they have said that certain events have not occurred to the people who were appearing before you as victims. We had an interest in their evidence and we cannot compel them to remain as victims, however ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON MR MEMANI CHAIRPERSON And call them as witnesses. MR MEMANI CHAIRPERSON MR MEMANI CHAIRPERSON MR MEMANI CHAIRPERSON Well, they have now left. MR MEMANI CHAIRPERSON Do you want a five minute adjournment? MR MEMANI CHAIRPERSON MR MEMANI That is so. COMMITTEE ADJOURNS ON RESUMPTION CHAIRPERSON Have you anything to report? MR MEMANI CHAIRPERSON Where is he? MR MEMANI CHAIRPERSON MR MEMANI JUDGE NGOEPE MR MEMANI ADV DE JAGER CHAIRPERSON MR MTHEMBU Mr Chair, I do agree with you. I also do foresee a conflict in that I have acted for Mr Motsamai and Ngo previously and I did consult with them and now if I have to act for the victims, I also foresee a conflict. CHAIRPERSON So you would not ...(intervention) MR MTHEMBU CHAIRPERSON Could you explain to them? JUDGE NGOEPE VICTIMS Yes. JUDGE NGOEPE You should understand why Mr Stander withdrew - the money he wanted or he claimed was too much and the Truth Commission was not able to pay. If the Truth Commission agreed to pay that amount to Mr Stander, it would create some problems in the future because all of them - all lawyers who are representing victims, should be paid equal amounts. What do you think now? Do you want to ask something? Is there anything you want to ask - to know, you want to ask for clarity? VICTIMS (No English translation) JUDGE NGOEPE VICTIMS (inaudible) INTERPRETER The speaker is not at the microphone. JUDGE NGOEPE (No English translation) VICTIMS (inaudible) JUDGE NGOEPE Sorry? VICTIMS (inaudible) JUDGE NGOEPE Yes. Those who are present - no problem, we will start with them if they are willing to give evidence, but you should understand that Mr Brink is here to work. You understand his duty? VICTIMS (inaudible) INTERPRETER The present speaker is not at the microphone. JUDGE NGOEPE WITNESSES ...[inaudible] ADV DE JAGER JUDGE NGOEPE CHAIRPERSON Before we adjourn, for the sake of the clarity of the record, I would like to place on record that Mr Stander came to see us in chambers with other counsel this morning and he made us aware of the problems that were facing him and the fact that he might have to withdraw. Thereafter both he and Mr Brink communicated with those responsible for arranging legal aid through the TRC head office in Cape Town. There were discussions between the interested parties and a final figure was arrived at which did not suit Mr Stander, which he rejected. And it was thereafter that he had - well, while that was going on, we understand that he also had discussions with the victims his clients and Mr Brink was also present at some of these discussions so they were aware of what was taking place so they may not have been aware of the precise reason why Mr Stander wished to withdraw. COMMITTEE ADJOURNS ON RESUMPTION Mr Stander, I see you are with us again, could you kindly tell us what the position is? MR STANDER CHAIRPERSON And the victims agree to that do they? MR STANDER CHAIRPERSON MR STANDER CHAIRPERSON So perhaps we can at last start doing something today. Carry on. MR STANDER Mr Chairman, I will then continue and call Mr Oliphant to the witness stand. SHADRACK TEKU OLIPHANT (sworn states) EXAMINATION BY MR STANDER Thank you Mr Chairman. Mr Oliphant, in front of you you will see that there are two bundles of documents, affidavits, the one is marked number one and the other one number two. I would like you to look at number 2, the first affidavit contained therein. Do you have it in front of you? MR OLIPHANT Yes. MR STANDER In the affidavit - without going into detail, you say that you were a victim in the application for amnesty of Mr Ngo and Motsamai, is that correct? MR OLIPHANT MR STANDER You say further that you had serious bodily injuries as a results of the actions of the security police because you were tortured, is that correct? MR OLIPHANT MR STANDER Is it also correct that the torture was done in order to confirm your activities in the ANC? MR OLIPHANT MR STANDER In the last paragraph, excuse me, the second last paragraph, you say that the members of the South African police or rather the security police who participated in your abuse or torture were Captain du Plooy ...[intervention] ADV DE JAGER MR STANDER ADV DE JAGER MR STANDER I will continue in this way, thank you. Mr Oliphant, will you please tell us which members of the security police participated, as you can recall, in this? MR OLIPHANT Captain du Plooy, Swanepoel, Terreblanche, Motsamai, Ngo. MR STANDER Are there any others that you can remember? MR OLIPHANT Du Plessis. MR STANDER Anyone else? MR OLIPHANT I do not remember the others very well. MR STANDER Please tell me, George Muzi, who was that? MR OLIPHANT George Muzi is my grandfather. MR STANDER What happened to him? MR OLIPHANT MR STANDER As a result of the death of this person, what was the feelings of the family? MR OLIPHANT I am hated until this day, my own blood hates me until today. MR STANDER Why does your own family hate you? JUDGE NGOEPE Mr Stander, in the meantime, Mr Muzi, is that the person who was killed some time? MR STANDER That is in fact so Mr Chairman. JUDGE NGOEPE And in relation to this witness, how is that related to the whole question of amnesty? MR STANDER JUDGE NGOEPE MR STANDER He is a person who was affected as a result of the actions of among others, Ngo and Motsamai, who is being called a murderer by his family while this is not the case. Do I have your permission to continue with this? Mr Oliphant, are you ready to continue? MR OLIPHANT Yes. MR STANDER The last question that I asked you was based on what is your family accusing you as being the murderer of your uncle? What is the reason for this? MR OLIPHANT MR STANDER Who was the cause of this information being spread in the black townships? MR OLIPHANT One of them is Geoffrey Mabilo and the other one is Motsamai and the other white policemen. MR STANDER This affidavit which you have in front of you, it was sworn, is that correct? MR OLIPHANT Which one are you referring to Sir? MR STANDER The one that you have in front of you. It is your statement not so, and your signature which appears on it? Please look on page 2. MR OLIPHANT This is my signature outside. MR STANDER MR OLIPHANT This is not my signature Sir, it was typed. MR STANDER The document that you have in front of you, if you look at the other bundle ...[intervention] ADV DE JAGER Can we just ensure that he has the correct bundle in front of him? Can someone just assist the witness? Mr Brink? MR OLIPHANT This is my name Sir. MR STANDER Thank you Mr Chairman, thank you Mr Brink. ADV DE JAGER Kan die tolke asseblief net die laaste antwoord tolk? MR OLIPHANT This is my name Sir. MR STANDER Mr Oliphant, you were also - you decided to leave the country for Maseru, is that correct? MR OLIPHANT MR STANDER Where did you go from there together with the rest of the group? MR OLIPHANT MR STANDER After you were arrested, where were you taken? MR OLIPHANT MR STANDER What happened to you on your return to Bloemfontein at Fountain Street? MR OLIPHANT They took us to Ram Kraal where it was the prison and we were refused. We were in a big van and we were taken to Park Road Police Station and they still refused us. We were then taken to Fountain. We arrived to Fountain and the van was parked behind. The policemen were already awaiting us and they made a guard of honour for us. We were running as we alighted from the van. We were in the middle of the two lines made by the policemen and we were put in the kitchen at station. Amongst us all I was the person who was called. Swanepoel and Terreblanche were the people pointing me by name. MR STANDER Why were you specifically called by those two persons? MR OLIPHANT Myself and Oupa were regarded as the leaders of this group. MR STANDER On that day, did you see Ngo and Motsamai there? MR OLIPHANT They were together, all of them were there. They were excited, even the white policemen were excited. MR STANDER What happened to you after you were called out of the kitchen? MR OLIPHANT CHAIRPERSON You will remember what was said earlier about spelling names for the assistance of the interpreter. MR STANDER Thank you Sir, I will do that. The person you mentioned now was Steve Bogatcoe? MR OLIPHANT MR STANDER Tell me, Steve Bogatcoe - when you were arrested and you were taken out of the kitchen ...[end of Tape 1 A - No follow-on sound] ...[No English translation] ADV DE JAGER MR STANDER Is ek reg as ek se dat Mnr du Plooy wou toe nou by u weet waar Steve Bogatcoe was? U moet nou asseblief daarvan af begin en vir ons vertel wat het toe daarna gebeur. MR OLIPHANT [No English translation] MR STANDER Se vir my, Motsamai en Ngo, het hulle enigsins deel gehad in die aanranding of die - op? MR OLIPHANT [No English translation] MR STANDER Hoe lank het hierdie aanranding voort geduur? ADV DE JAGER MR STANDER Mnr Voorsitter, ek sal dit by hom uitkry. Ek het hom verstaan om te se dat hy in die kantoor van du Plooy aangerand was en toe hy terug geneem is na die kombuis, toe hy gevra het om na die toilet toe gegaan het Motsamai en Ngo vir hom aangerand maar ek sal hierdie aangeleentheid met hom opklaar met u toestemming. Se vir my, die voorval wat plaasgevind het in Mnr du Plooy se kantoor, het dit eers plaasgevind en daarna is u na die kombuis? Daar was u aangerand deur Motsamai en Ngo onder andere? MR OLIPHANT MR STANDER MR OLIPHANT MR STANDER MR OLIPHANT I was further assaulted. They were not asking me, they were actually telling me the evidence that they heard from the other comrades. They said I was responsible for many activities around the country and I disputed that information. MR STANDER How long did these assaults continue for? MR OLIPHANT I was assaulted My Lord. What I realised at Fountain, I would only meet [indistinct] when we were taken to our cells. I was taken to Park Road and he was taken to Four Ways. We could not even communicate with each other because we were in pains, both of us. MR STANDER What time was this when you were taken to the police cells? MR OLIPHANT It was at night My Lord, at night. MR STANDER Did you have any injuries? MR OLIPHANT Yes, I was injured behind my head because Swanepoel hit me with the butt of the gun and I fainted. They did not have mercy even when I was lying down, they continued with the assaults. MR STANDER Was there any blood on your face? MR OLIPHANT I was bleeding through the ears and through the mouth. Even to this day my teeth are loose, since then they have been loose. MR STANDER [English translation inaudible] MR OLIPHANT Not at all. They said a terrorist cannot be seen by a doctor, not at all My Lord. MR STANDER What happened the next day? MR OLIPHANT I was taken to ...[indistinct] square where there was a parade. I was thrown among many people, then [English translation inaudible] MR STANDER [English translation inaudible] MR OLIPHANT [English translation inaudible] MR STANDER [English translation inaudible] MR OLIPHANT [English translation inaudible] MR STANDER You say you were taken to Fuchsware building? To do what there? MR OLIPHANT Because I refused to being a member of the ANC. They said ...[indistinct] where someone will point me as being a member who was used by the ANC and one of comrades identified me. This is the person I was together with in the cell, he pointed me out. MR STANDER Tell me, were Motsamai and Ngo involved the whole time while you were assaulted and then removed? MR OLIPHANT When I was taken to Fuchsware they were not there. MR STANDER And on the second day, what happened then? MR OLIPHANT My eyes were closed because of the swelling, I could not see. Du Plessis even took a photo of me and he was showing it to the others and saying: "Look at this baboon". He called me a baboon because he hit me until my eyes were swollen. MR STANDER After you were at Fuchsware, what happened then? MR OLIPHANT Because I was still refusing to agree with what he was saying, they continually assaulted me. MR STANDER That evening, where were you taken then? MR OLIPHANT I was taken back to Park Road in the cells. MR STANDER Did you receive any medical attention? MR OLIPHANT Not at all My Lord, they said terrorists cannot be seen by a doctor. MR STANDER So were you taken back to Fountain Street? MR OLIPHANT MR STANDER How long did this torturing continue? How many days? MR OLIPHANT I will not be in a position to remember because I even got mentally disturbed. I was already taken to a mental hospital. MR STANDER Tell me, except for the first day, were Motsamai and Ngo in any way involved in your torture? MR OLIPHANT I last saw them in the kitchen Sir. MR STANDER Just to conclude with the evidence, later on you were charged, am I correct? MR OLIPHANT MR STANDER And it was during this period [English translation inaudible] MR OLIPHANT George Muzi died when I was in the hands of the police. I remember it was on the ...[indistinct] and the police came to me and insisted that I killed George Muzi. And they kicked me whilst I was in those cells. MR STANDER MR OLIPHANT MR STANDER What happened with the criminal charge that was made against you? MR OLIPHANT There was no evidence in court but the people and the police had evidence but it was not used in court. MR STANDER Do you know whether you were found guilty or not guilty? MR OLIPHANT I was not found guilty, I was not even charged. MR STANDER Tell me, did you sustain any injuries that you have kept due to the assault [English translation inaudible] MR OLIPHANT Yes, I have this thing behind my head, it is swollen. That is where Swanepoel hit me the butt of the gun and my teeth are loose. MR STANDER Thank you Mr Chair, this is the evidence in chief of this witness. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR STANDER MR VISSER NO QUESTIONS BY MR VISSER MR DU PLESSIS Thank you Mr Chairman, I have no questions either. NO QUESTIONS BY MR DU PLESSIS MR VISSER Mr Chairman, perhaps if I may - Visser on record again, my attorney has just drawn my attention to one fact and perhaps I should just make one statement to the witness that is referring to page one of the set of affidavits. If I may Mr Chairman, just place one aspect on record. MR OLIPHANT I do not know Sir. MR VISSER CHAIRPERSON MR VISSER CHAIRPERSON On the list. MR VISSER Morakile, Ntjiala, Ramouseau, Sesedinyane, Tswametsi, now those are 13 names. Then there are a further nine names and I believe Mr Chairman, that they appear in another record. CHAIRPERSON I have a list of 22 names. MR VISSER CHAIRPERSON [inaudible] MR VISSER CHAIRPERSON [inaudible] MR VISSER Yes, I was hoping that I could give that to the interpreters to ...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON [inaudible] MR VISSER MR OLIPHANT I know Kopie. MR VISSER MR OLIPHANT I know him as a policeman at Fountain. MR VISSER Yes, is that all? MR OLIPHANT MR VISSER Thank you Mr Chairman, I have no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VISSER MR MEMANI NO QUESTIONS BY MR MEMANI MR BRINK No questions, thank you Mr Chairman. NO QUESTIONS BY MR BRINK CHAIRPERSON ...[inaudible] INTERPRETER CHAIRPERSON Sorry, one question to clarify the record. The witness referred to his grandfather throughout and you referred to his uncle, which was it? - George Muzi. MR STANDER I could possibly just find out from the witness, I might have made a mistake Mr Chair. Mr Oliphant, how is George Muzi related to you? MR OLIPHANT George Muzi was a cousin to my father, he was the elder brother to my father and I refer to him as my grandfather. MR STANDER CHAIRPERSON Well, it indicates how the different came about. MR STANDER As you please. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. WITNESS EXCUSED MR STANDER Mr Chair, I will continue to call the next witness for today and that is Mr Matthews Mzuzwana. ADV DE JAGER: Could you possibly spell the name so long please? MR VISSER Mr Chair, it was already done on this list of affidavits that was placed before you but I will do it gladly. ADV DE JAGER The interpreters now have to look for the name so can you just indicate where it is on the list. INTERPRETERS MR STANDER M-z-u-z-w-a-n-a. The witness is in the stand Mr Chairman. MATTHEWS MZUZWANA (sworn states) MR STANDER Mr Mzuzwana, there are two bundles, affidavits before you, could you please refer to bundle number two? Can you please look at page 15 and 16, is that your affidavit? MR MZUZWANA MR STANDER Would you please read it into the record? MR MZUZWANA Should I read it in English or in the language it is written? ADV DE JAGER MR STANDER Is that your signature which appears under there? MR MZUZWANA MR STANDER Tell me, in this affidavit you say that you were prejudiced by the actions and acts of Motsamai and Ngo. Can you please briefly explain to us on what grounds you say that Ngo and Motsamai assaulted or tortured you? MR MZUZWANA I would like to know from you Sir, are you referring to the events - before the event of being shot at or after the event of being shot at? MR STANDER MR MZUZWANA I was a student with regards to the first incident and I was a member of COSAS and I was a member of the UDF. In many of our activities fighting against apartheid, Ngo and Motsamai took part in the assault and the torture. MR STANDER Please refer to a specific incident. MR MZUZWANA The first time was when I was arrested by Motsamai and them. Erasmus fetched me from home and they took me to the veld and that is where they assaulted me, Ngo and Motsamai and them were present. I was then taken to Fountain, they wanted me to confirm that White Mohapi was one of the leadership people and the rest of them who were the leadership of COSAS. MR STANDER Who assaulted you? The question was how were you assaulted? MR MZUZWANA We arrived at Fountain and I was taken into a separate room, two tables were put before me and they took a stick and my hands were put behind my thighs and this stick was put between my knees and my hands. Mr Motsamai referred to this method as: "Chicken Jive". Thereafter I was electrocuted but still I refused to tell them the leadership of COSAS. I was then left thereafter. They wanted me to be their spy, I still refused. MR STANDER Were you later on released? MR MZUZWANA I was released after two days. MR STANDER Were you arrested later on again? MR MZUZWANA MR STANDER Were you tortured every time? MR MZUZWANA Yes, every time they tortured me. MR STANDER Were Motsamai and Ngo each and every time present when you were assaulted? MR MZUZWANA Yes, they were present/ MR STANDER I am now going to move on to the incident ...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON Before you go on, when was this? MR MZUZWANA I do not remember very well Sir, this took place a long time ago. CHAIRPERSON Can you remember what year? MR MZUZWANA It was in 1985. MR STANDER At that stage, were you still at school? MR MZUZWANA Yes. MR STANDER Which school did you attend? MR MZUZWANA I was at Vulamasango, V-u-l-a-m-a-s-a-n-g-o. MR STANDER We will now move on to the incident in which you were shot. Can you remember when that took place? MR MZUZWANA Yes, I still remember. MR STANDER Can you give the date to the Committee please? MR MZUZWANA It was on the 18th of April in 1985. MR STANDER What happened then? MR MZUZWANA On that day we had arranged to hold a memorial service with regards to the Utenhage issue. As COSAS we organised that gathered for midday at ...[indistinct] High School and our parents would hold the same memorial service in the afternoon of that same day at church, it was at the AME church. We took a road leading to Botshabelo, I forgot the name of the street. Before we could enter Botshabelo - we were between the two locations, Bato and Botshabelo, there was a police van called a "Mellow-Yellow" which came to us driving very slowly. I was together with my sister-in-law and I was telling her the events of my arrest. One policeman who came to arrest me was Nkosi - I do not remember his first name but there were two, it was Nkosi and the other one. Now Nonsololo my sister-in-law was asking them where they were taking me to, now there was no reply. They chased her away. I see a name of a policeman here: Ramulefi, this is the policeman who came out. Lukani whom I referred to earlier on and the other policeman took me to the van and he said to them: "Leave this child, we are not going to be troubled by such a small boy". While trying to listen to what this person was going to say further, a shot went off and I do not remember what happened thereafter. I was shot at the ear. MR STANDER Can you please turn your head so that the people can see what your ear looks like? Why is your face so skew? MR MZUZWANA These are the effects of that shooting. MR STANDER Tell me, were Motsamai and Ngo involved in this last incident? MR MZUZWANA I do not know because I did not see them but as they gave evidence here, it appeared that they were there. They said they were there but I did not see them. MR STANDER Were you hospitalised due to this shooting incident? MR MZUZWANA Yes, I stayed three months in the hospital. MR STANDER Are you still suffering the consequences of this injury that you have sustained? MR MZUZWANA People laugh at me when they meet me in the street, nobody would just pass me, they always pass and look back at me. ADV DE JAGER MR STANDER That is correct Mr Chair. ADV DE JAGER [inaudible] INTERPRETER ADV DE JAGER MR STANDER JUDGE NGOEPE MR STANDER Mr Mzuzwana, is it correct to say that you laid a civil claim at a later stage? MR MZUZWANA MR STANDER And also that the matter was settled in the Supreme Court here in Bloemfontein? MR MZUZWANA Yes, it was settled. MR STANDER And the defendants in the matter was the South African Police? MR MZUZWANA MR STANDER No further questions, thank you Mr Chair. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR STANDER CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR VISSER Sorry Mr Chairman, may I go first? Thank you. Mr Mzuzwana, are you also known as: "Zwelinzima: Z-w-e-l-i-n-z-i-m-a Mzuzwana"? MR MZUZWANA Not Zwelinzima but Wzelinjani: W-z-e-l-i-n-j-a-n-i. MR VISSER MR MZUZWANA Which Committee are you referring to Sir? MR VISSER This Committee before whom we are appearing today? MR STANDER Mr Chair, I tried to help my learned friend by pointing out to him that it was his brother who was called at a previous occasion to come and clear up the matter of the name. MR VISSER Did you during your trial, tell the court the same story as you told this Committee today about who were present at the time when you were shot that evening? MR MZUZWANA Yes, I did tell the court. MR VISSER I have before me Mr Chairman, a document which I very good belief emanates from the Investigation Unit. May I enquire from you Mr Chairman, whether you and your members have a document which came from the - a report from the Investigation Unit? CHAIRPERSON The first top line is "also the contents of the" MR VISSER I want to refer you to linen 10. CHAIRPERSON Well the bundle is E2. MR VISSER E2, thank you Mr Chairman. And I want to refer your attention to line 10 of that page. MR MZUZWANA I understand your question Sir. MR VISSER Now, was that in fact your evidence that you gave during your trial, that you saw Nkosi and Ngo there that evening? MR MZUZWANA That is my evidence. MR VISSER And are you today uncertain about Ngo because you did not include him today in your evidence? MR MZUZWANA MR VISSER MR MZUZWANA MR VISSER At page 147 Mr Chair, of bundle A, paragraph 7. MR MZUZWANA MR VISSER Do you have any explanation for this conflict of evidence? MR MEMANI MR VISSER Can my learned friend point to you Mr Chairman and myself to boot, where Mr Ngo has applied for amnesty in regard to this incident? MR MEMANI MR VISSER Well that takes us nowhere Mr Chairman. MR VISSER CHAIRPERSON What conflict? MR VISSER CHAIRPERSON MR VISSER But Mr Chairman, he has just confirmed that his memory was better during his trial and at the trial he said Ngo and Nkosi were there. CHAIRPERSON MR VISSER CHAIRPERSON MR VISSER Yes, Mr Chairman. MR MZUZWANA MR VISSER Just tell us who he is. Who do you know him as? MR MZUZWANA MR VISSER Does he work at the butchery? MR MZUZWANA MR VISSER MR MZUZWANA MR VISSER Do you know with what branch of the police he is or was? MR MZUZWANA He was here in Bloemfontein, he was working in Bloemfontein. MR VISSER Will you describe this person to us so that we can try to identify him? MR STANDER Mr Chair, that is a completely unfair questions. How can this witness describe a person? He has already told us that this person is not present in this hall. ADV DE JAGER But it will indicate that he knows what he looks like and if he knows what he looks like he will be able to describe him. MR STANDER MR VISSER MR STANDER ...[inaudible] MR VISSER MR STANDER MR VISSER And there is nothing unreasonable in the question. MR STANDER Mr Chair, there a much better method. If my learned friend wants this person to be pointed out, why do we not organise an identification parade? That would sort the problem out much easier. MR VISSER CHAIRPERSON You say you know this man as Erasmus? MR MZUZWANA That is true. CHAIRPERSON Had you seen him before? MR MZUZWANA Many occasions. CHAIRPERSON Many occasions? Do you know what he looks like? MR MZUZWANA Many occasions when I was arrested and taken to Fountain. He was among those people who went to fetch me in the house. CHAIRPERSON Do you know what he looks like? MR MZUZWANA CHAIRPERSON You say he was short? MR MZUZWANA Yes. CHAIRPERSON Was he a thin man or a well-built man? MR MZUZWANA CHAIRPERSON And is that all you can remember about him? MR MZUZWANA That is correct. MR VISSER MR MZUZWANA MR VISSER MR MZUZWANA He was assaulting me. I remember one day when we were arrested whilst we were selling newspapers, he told me how he would shoot me because I denied to be his informer. MR VISSER MR MZUZWANA MR VISSER Now let me see whether I understand your evidence. Is your evidence now that Colonel Erasmus assaulted you on more than one occasion? MR MZUZWANA That is correct. MR VISSER Are you able to recall on how many occasions? MR MZUZWANA MR VISSER Alright. Well, perhaps I should ask you, who were the other police in whose company he was? - that you keep on referring to? MR MZUZWANA ...[inaudible] present, Meningwa was present, Mamome, Swanepoel, Terreblanche and Ngo and Motsamai. MR VISSER Let me try to understand. Is it every time that they came to your house, was it this group of people as well as Erasmus or did the group change, the individuals in the group change from time to time? MR MZUZWANA At times three people would come to fetch me but at times they would come in different numbers on different occasions but Erasmus would always be there. MR VISSER MR MZUZWANA MR VISSER Did you tell Mr Stander about more than one assault on you when you consulted with him? JUDGE NGOEPE "Were you tortured every time"? - "Yes" "Were Ngo and Motsamai always there"? - "Yes" So he has told us that he was assaulted on many occasions. MR VISSER MR MZUZWANA MR VISSER MR MZUZWANA MR VISSER Did you tell Mr Stander that when you consulted with him? MR MZUZWANA Yes, I did. MR VISSER Thank you. How did Mr Erasmus assault you on any of these occasions? Now, I think you must pick an occasion so that you can tell us what happened. In your evidence in chief you referred to the occasion when you were arrested and Erasmus you said, came to fetch you from your house, is that correct? MR MZUZWANA That is correct. MR VISSER Was that only on one occasion, that he came to fetch you from your house or was there other occasions? MR MZUZWANA MR VISSER Presumably you should just tell me the truth Mr Mzuzwana. MR STANDER That is why I made an exception of one and asked the witness what happened on other occasions and he said that he was assaulted on other occasions. If my learned friend now wants me - wanted me to have led him on every specific occasion that this happened then surely I would have done this. ADV DE JAGER Mr Stander, let us just make this short. Was he assaulted several times by Erasmus or the police? Can you just tell us whether Erasmus assaulted you on several occasions? MR MZUZWANA ADV DE JAGER What did he do to you? MR MZUZWANA Explain again, the method they used. ADV DE JAGER MR MZUZWANA MR VISSER Thank you Mr Chairman. MR MZUZWANA ...[inaudible] MR VISSER INTERPRETER The speaker was not audible enough. MR VISSER Will you just repeat your answer for the record please Mr Mzuzwana. MR MZUZWANA MR VISSER MR MZUZWANA Like who? MR VISSER Like Mr Erasmus. Did you charge him, did you lay a charge against him? Did you ask your attorney to address a letter to him to claim damages from him or anything of the kind? MR MZUZWANA No. MR VISSER Why not? MR MZUZWANA Even if I tried to lay a charge against him, he was not going to be arrested. He was part of the government or he was the government. MR VISSER MR MZUZWANA I tried to lay charges on those assaults but even today there is no progress. I saw that it was useless to lay a charge against the police. MR VISSER MR MZUZWANA MR VISSER Well, I want to put it to you that Mr Erasmus will deny your allegations that he ever assaulted you. MR MZUZWANA MR VISSER MR MZUZWANA I said, if Mr Erasmus is going to say he denies taking part in the assault, he knows that in his heart that he did take part. MR VISSER You did mention further names: Meningwa, Mamome, and then you mentioned Swanepoel, Terreblanche and Ngo and Motsamai. As far as Mr Meningwa is concerned, will you just explain to the Committee why you mentioned his name. MR MZUZWANA He was working with these people and then he used to be there when I was fetched from my home. MR VISSER MR MZUZWANA Yes, that is true. MR VISSER And Mamome, you mentioned Mamome. Why did you mention him? MR MZUZWANA They worked together. MR VISSER Is the reason why you mentioned Mamome the fact that he worked together with whom? Meningwa? MR MZUZWANA I said all these person whom I mentioned took part if I was arrested. MR VISSER Is that your complete answer? MR MZUZWANA Yes, that is true. MR VISSER MR MZUZWANA Even they may deny that or dispute that, God knows what happened. MR VISSER MR MZUZWANA Yes, they did. MR VISSER On how many occasions did ...[intervention] ADV DE JAGER MR MZUZWANA MR VISSER MR MZUZWANA MR VISSER MR MZUZWANA: How should I put it or what kind of assault are you talking about? MR VISSER MR MZUZWANA MR VISSER MR MZUZWANA Meningwa kicked and hit me with his fists. In many cases when I was arrested, taken from my home to Fountain Street. MR VISSER And is it the same with Mr Mamome? MR MZUZWANA That is correct. MR VISSER NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VISSER MR DU PLESSIS No questions from this side Mr Chairman. NO QUESTIONS BY MR DU PLESSIS MR MEMANI May I take instructions Mr Chairman? Thank you Mr Chairman. Now Mr Mzuzwana, is it correct that you are not aware of the participation of Ngo and Motsamai in the incident during which you were shot? MR MZUZWANA MR MEMANI Then you are not in a position to contradict their evidence? MR MZUZWANA No. MR MEMANI Those are my questions Mr Chairman. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MEMANI MR BRINK No thank you Mr Chairman. NO QUESTIONS BY MR BRINK WITNESS EXCUSED MR STANDER CHAIRPERSON MR STANDER This is in your hands. MR STANDER KHUSANE JWAYI (sworn states) MR STANDER Mr Jwayi, is it correct that you are also A prejudiced person in the amnesty applications for Ngo and Motsamai? MR JWAYI That is correct. MR STANDER Please tell me, were you part of the group of people who decided to leave the country and who were arrested just before you crossed the river in the Ladybrand district? MR JWAYI That is correct. MR STANDER Can you recall when it was? MR JWAYI It was on the 6th of April 1986. MR STANDER Can you recall who was with you? Give me two names if you can. MR JWAYI MR STANDER If you say China, are you referring to Shadrack Oliphant? MR JWAYI That is correct. MR STANDER And Oupa? MR JWAYI That is correct. MR STANDER Were you a member of the leadership group? MR JWAYI No, that is not correct. MR STANDER Is it correct that after you were arrested you were taken to the police station at Ladybrand? MR JWAYI After we were arrested by soldiers they transferred us to the police. MR STANDER Is it true that you eventually ended up in Fountain Street with the security police? MR JWAYI That is correct. MR STANDER What happened to you there? MR JWAYI I was interrogated and then thereafter I was assaulted if I was not responding the way they wanted to the questions they asked me. MR STANDER By whom were you assaulted? MR JWAYI Whom I would say was chiefly responsible, is Killian. MR STANDER Did you see Motsamai and Ngo as part of the security police? Were they present? ADV DE JAGER I think the question formed part of the answer. Was the answer Killian? MR JWAYI That is correct. MR STANDER I did not hear the answer. Was Mr Motsamai and Ngo also members of the security police at that stage? MR JWAYI That is correct. MR STANDER Did you also see them there? MR JWAYI On they day they made the guard of honour when we arrived yes, they were present. MR STANDER What did Mr Killian do to you? MR JWAYI He assaulted me more than any other policeman. MR STANDER I want you to tell us what he did. MR JWAYI He assaulted me the way I was not assaulted before. MR STANDER What did he do? MR JWAYI He was hitting me with fists, he was hitting me a certain belt which is so thick and then he was using a tube, he pressing me on the floor. MR STANDER Why did these assaults on you take place, what was the reason for it? MR JWAYI MR STANDER Were you released later? MR JWAYI MR STANDER MR JWAYI They took me to the kitchen but they used to go and fetch me there from the kitchen. MR STANDER Was it only Killian that was involved in these assaults every time? MR JWAYI MR STANDER MR JWAYI MR STANDER Were you released after these assaults had continued? MR JWAYI MR STANDER Were you brought back to Fountain Street the next day again? MR JWAYI Yes, they returned us to fountain street. MR STANDER Were you assaulted the next day again? MR JWAYI It was not the same as yesterday but they used their open hands so that we should tell them the truth. MR STANDER Was it once again Mr Killian who was involved? MR JWAYI The person whom I remember is Kopie. MR STANDER What did he do to you? MR JWAYI MR STANDER What did he want you to say? MR JWAYI They wanted me to confirm that China and Oupa were part of our leadership and agree with the places they identified as hiding places. When I disputed that, they started with assaults because they wanted me to confirm what they were saying to me. MR STANDER For how many days were you taken to Fountain Street? MR JWAYI For the first day they assaulted us, then they took us back again to Fountain but they ...[End of Tape 2 side A - no follow-on sound] days, then after that they would come and collect us again to take us to Fountain. MR STANDER Were you assaulted on those occasions again? MR JWAYI No, we were not assaulted. MR STANDER What did they expect you to do on the following days? MR JWAYI MR STANDER Were you state witnesses? MR JWAYI Yes, they told us that we were state witnesses therefore they were not going to charge us, the charges were against China and Oupa. MR STANDER You were released at a later stage? MR JWAYI After they were acquitted we were released. MR STANDER I have no further questions to this witness. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR STANDER ADV DE JAGER It is not clear to me whether he gave evidence or testified in court. Did you testify in court? MR JWAYI MR VISSER MR DU PLESSIS Thank you Mr Chairman, we have no questions. NO QUESTIONS BY MR DU PLESSIS MR MEMANI No questions Mr Chairman. NO QUESTIONS BY MR DU PLESSIS. MR BRINK No questions Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON MR STANDER Mr Chair, I must confess that I have not prepared any other testimony, I did not think that we would go through the evidence this quickly. We might perhaps just fit another witness in if I could just quickly consult. JUDGE NGOEPE MR STANDER JUDGE NGOEPE MR STANDER Yes Mr Chair. If you look at the record, we were much longer with other witnesses in another sitting. A certain witness took a whole day for example and on that basis I did not prepare. JUDGE NGOEPE ...[inaudible] Mr Stander. MR STANDER JUDGE NGOEPE MR STANDER Mr Chair, I have told you, due to the fact that the previous witnesses took hours and hours, I did not think in my wildest dream that we would be able to fit in more than three witnesses in one day and if I made a mistake I apologise. JUDGE NGOEPE MR STANDER CHAIRPERSON COMMITTEE ADJOURNS ON RESUMPTION MR STANDER She indicated that she will testify in Xhosa. INTERPRETER The witness is uttering something but the microphone is not on. MR STANDER Mr Chair, the witness is blind. JUDGE NGOEPE Can the witness please stand. MS JACOBS I can hear, thank you. MR BRINK Can you hear me Mrs Jacobs, can you hear me being translated into Xhosa? Can you hear that? MS JACOBS Yes, I can hear Sir. MR STANDER Ms Jacobs, is it correct that you were also one of the 19 persons who tried to skip the country when you were arrested at Ladybrand? MS JACOBS That is correct. MR STANDER Is it also correct that after you were taken to the police station at Ladybrand, that you were handed over to the security police there? MS JACOBS That is correct. MR STANDER And also that you were transferred to Bloemfontein on the next day? MS JACOBS That is correct. MR STANDER At that stage you were still a student? MS JACOBS Yes, I was a student? MS JACOBS In which school were you? MS JACOBS That is Lekulong Secondary School. MR STANDER In which standard were you? MS JACOBS Standard eight Sir. MR STANDER What were you to go and do there in Maseru? MS JACOBS We were skipping the country. MR STANDER Why? MS JACOBS MR STANDER Alright. After you were at the security branch at Ladybrand, you were transferred to Bloemfontein? MS JACOBS That is correct. MR STANDER What happened to you when you arrived in Bloemfontein? Where were you taken? MS JACOBS We started at Ramkraal police station. They took us to Park Road police station and we were not welcomed and afterwards we were taken to Fountain Street. We found the members of the security police waiting for us. MR STANDER Tell me, was Mr Motsamai and Ngo known to you? Did you know them at that stage? MS JACOBS Yes, I knew them very well. MR STANDER Were they members of the group who welcomed you there in Fountain Street? MS JACOBS There was no policemen who was not present, all of them were there. MR STANDER Where you taken? MS JACOBS When we arrived there we were taken through the stairways up to the 5th floor, that is the floor which had a kitchen, from there we were taken various rooms where we were interrogated. MR STANDER ...[inaudible] MS JACOBS I lost my sight in 1990 on the 21st of March which was the commemoration for Sharpeville shooting. MR STANDER Where were you taken from the kitchen? MS JACOBS All of us were taken to the kitchen, we were not able to all of us go in there. Oupa Makubalo, Monisa Mtambu and others were not present in the kitchen. We were made to settle in the kitchen and then we were taken one by one from the kitchen by those police who were there. MR STANDER Where were you taken and by whom? MS JACOBS MR STANDER What did you do there? MS JACOBS That is where I was questioned about who was responsible to influence us to go leave. Then I was clapped and then they said Oupa, Monasi, were the ones who influenced us to skip the country, that is where I was slapped. MR STANDER Who slapped you? MS JACOBS MR STANDER You do not know what each one of them individually did but you know they were in the office? MS JACOBS Yes, that is correct. They were in the room but I would not know who did what because I was covered in the fact with a tube. MR STANDER Until what time did these assaults continue? MS JACOBS MR STANDER Till what time that day were you there at Fountain Street? MS JACOBS MR STANDER Were you taken back to Fountain Street the next day? MS JACOBS We were only tortured that day and then from there we stayed at the cells. We were only taken there when we were taken to court. MR STANDER You were only later released? MS JACOBS Yes, that is true, we were released and all of us went back home. MR STANDER Were you also a state witness? MS JACOBS MR STANDER Why did you lose your sight? MS JACOBS I was shot by the police. MR STANDER MS JACOBS No, they were ...[inaudible] policemen. MR STANDER Can you remember when that was? MS JACOBS It was on the 21st of March 1990. MR STANDER I have no further questions to this witness. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR STANDER MR VISSER MR DU PLESSIS We have no questions Mr Chairman. NO QUESTIONS BY MR DU PLESSIS CHAIRPERSON Have you any questions? MR MEMANI I beg your pardon Mr Chairman, I did not hear your response to Mr Visser. CHAIRPERSON He stood down. We then dealt with Mr du Plessis. MR MEMANI As the Chair pleases. MS JACOBS 1986. MR MEMANI And we were told by Mr Motsamai that people were interrogated on one floor and at a later stage they were taken to another floor where they were interrogated by fairly senior policemen who were specialising with MK. Has that been interpreted? Now, is it your recollection that you were taken to one floor and then to a floor higher? MS JACOBS It depends. I went to the room next door to the kitchen. We were taken to various rooms but we occupied all the rooms, it depends which floor you were taken. MR MEMANI And you do not have a clear recollection of how long you saw Mr Motsamai on that day? MS JACOBS MR MEMANI Those are my questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MEMANI MR MEMANI Mr Chair, may I get instructions? MR BRINK No questions, thank you Mr Chairman. NO QUESTIONS BY MR BRINK JUDGE NGOEPE Am I correct in thinking that when you were removed from Fountain to that police station that you said, the Glen or something, were the ladies transported separately from the gentleman? MS JACOBS Yes, we were separated from the gentlemen or the boys. JUDGE NGOEPE MS JACOBS JUDGE NGOEPE Thank you. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. MR VISSER Ought the witness not to be perhaps informed that she would have attend again tomorrow Mr Chairman and the previous witness as well? [no sound] MR STANDER I call then to the witness stand Annie Phahlane. CHAIRPERSON ...[inaudible] MR STANDER She will testify in South Sotho Mr Chair. ANNIE PHAHLANE (sworn states) MR STANDER Ms Phahlane, were you also one of the group of 19 who were arrested when you tried to skip the country on your way to Maseru? MS PHAHLANE That is correct Sir. MR STANDER How old were you at that stage? MS PHAHLANE I was around 18 years old. MR STANDER Which school did you attend? MS PHAHLANE: Vulamasango. MR STANDER Why did you try to skip the country? MS PHAHLANE MR STANDER Of which political organisation were you a member at that stage? MS PHAHLANE I was a member of COSAS. MR STANDER Tell me, after you were arrested at Ladybrand, where were you taken? MS PHAHLANE We were taken to Ramkraal, we were not welcome and then we were taken to Park Road, we were not welcome again and then at Fountain we found the police waiting for us. MR STANDER Can you still remember who of these policemen were present? MS PHAHLANE Yes. MR STANDER Can I put it to you this way ...[intervention] MR VISSER MR STANDER Can you tell us which policemen were present when you were brought into Fountain Street? MS PHAHLANE When we were there, there were many, even that we found them waiting outside waiting for us. MR STANDER Can you remember some of the names of some of the policemen who were there? MS PHAHLANE Yes, that is true. MR STANDER Can you please give us these names? MS PHAHLANE Do you mean the police whom I recognised and they were there? MR STANDER Correct, yes. MS PHAHLANE Mamome, Motsamai, Ngo, Mr Tswametsi, Mr Erasmus, du Plooy, there were many, Meningwa was there, Melisi was there. MR STANDER ...[indistinct] INTERPRETER The interpreters did not hear the last question. MS PHAHLANE We were taken to Glen, we were taken inside the building, then we were taken to Glen at night when we were going to sleep. MR STANDER When you arrived at Fountain Street, where were you taken? MS PHAHLANE We were taken inside, we went through the stairways, then we went to the kitchen, then from there they separated us to various places which we did not know. Then when we arrived at the kitchen some of us were called to various rooms. MR STANDER Can you remember where you were called? MS PHAHLANE Yes, that is correct. MR STANDER Can you tell us where? MS PHAHLANE I was called by Mr Erasmus. I returned later after he interrogated me, after he slapped me. I went to the second room, I was slapped by Ngo and he was together with Motsamai and Meningwa. MR STANDER Were you only assaulted in this way on those two occasions? MS PHAHLANE We were taken in many instances. I think for a week or two weeks we were taken in the afternoon or in the morning and then they would assault us. Even at Mr du Plooy I was taken to, he showed me various photos and asked my why was I able to try to skip because they tried to arrest me again. I was detained for three days after being arrested by other people who tried to skip the country. They said how did I go with those people whilst I was together with them previously then I ...[inaudible] MR STANDER Tell me, which policemen that you can remember were present or took part in the assault on you? MS PHAHLANE Mr Erasmus and Ngo and Motsamai and Mamome. MR STANDER What did Erasmus do to you? MS PHAHLANE He blindfolded me with a tube, then he brought the tube with water and fastened me on the head. After that I was kicked by a number of people and when I opened my eyes I could see that it was himself and Ngo but I felt there were many, there were more than two whilst they were assaulting me because I was lying on the floor and I was being kicked. And when they removed the tube you would not be able to see because you will be drowsy then. MR STANDER What did Ngo do to you? MS PHAHLANE He held me on the neck, then he slapped me, then I nearly fell on the ground, then I sat on the chair. MR STANDER And Motsamai? MS PHAHLANE He was slapping me. MR STANDER Behalwe die drie persone wat u nou genoem het, was daar iemand anders wat u ook aangerand het? MS PHAHLANE Mr du Plooy yes, he did take part in the assault with open hands whilst I was in his office. We stayed the whole day there in his office and when you tried to get dressed somebody would come and pick you up and take you to his office. When I arrived in his office he blindfolded me with a tube, he made me lie on the mattress and then he pressed me down. Whilst you are fastened with that tube you are not able to inhale or exhale. MR STANDER How many consecutive days were you taken to Fountain Street? MS PHAHLANE We were taken the following day from Glen to Fountain, then after two days again we were taken. And then at times after three days we would be taken from Glen to Fountain. MR STANDER Did you sustain any injuries due to the assault on you? MS PHAHLANE I removed some of my teeth whilst I was in the cell. MR STANDER Why did you loose your teeth? MS PHAHLANE Because of the assault. MR STANDER What happened thereafter that cause that you were released? MS PHAHLANE MR STANDER Were you present or do you know of any other incidents in which Motsamai and Ngo were involved after this as far as you were concerned? MS PHAHLANE No. Even before when I was arrested for this particular case I was arrested before. Mr Motsamai and Mamome used to be there when I was fetched. MR STANDER Were you then assaulted at that incident? MS PHAHLANE No, they would assault me when we arrived at Fountain, not whilst I was at home. MR STANDER No further questions to this witness. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR STANDER MR VISSER NO QUESTIONS BY MR VISSER NO QUESTIONS BY MR DU PLESSIS JUDGE NGOEPE MR VISSER MR MEMANI NO QUESTIONS BY MR MEMANI MR BRINK No questions, thank you Mr Chairman. NO QUESTIONS BY MR BRINK CHAIRPERSON Thank you. WITNESS EXCUSED MR STANDER Mr Chair, we have no further witnesses here. I cannot take the matter further than that today. CHAIRPERSON ...[inaudible] MR BRINK CHAIRPERSON [Complete end of hearing totally inaudible] HEARING ADJOURNS