amntrans AMNESTY HEARINGS 1998-01-22 BLOEMFONTEIN 4 https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=54628&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/bloem/bloem5_2ndngo4.htm MR MOHAPE: (s.u.o.) MR VISSER Mr Mohape, yesterday we had just reached the point where I was asking you some questions about you leaving Bayswater Police Station, do you remember that? MR MOHAPE Yes. (Technical problem with microphones) MR VISSER Mr Mohape, yesterday we were talking about the time when you left Bayswater Police Station. You told us yesterday, if I remember correctly, that that was the time you were arrested and you first thought that it was in terms of Section 27? MR MOHAPE 29. MR VISSER Oh, sorry 29 and then it appeared to be a Section 50 arrest if I understood you correctly? MR MOHAPE Correct. MR VISSER I want to ask you first of all, just going back a step. Did that have anything to do with the attack on Mr Nelson Ngo? Was that unrelated, that arrest, was it unrelated to that particular attack? If you can't remember well then just say so. MR MOHAPE No, no, I remember it. Correct. It is very clear at that time we had already uncovered Ngo and the police, the security branch, beyond that, they continued to detain me. I was detained and detained to - what is this prison? Grootvlei prison. It was a continuous harassment from the security branch. MR VISSER The question is simply this. Did it have anything to do with the attack on Mr Ngo? MR MOHAPE I think that you should ask the security branch. MR VISSER Alright, okay, that's good enough. Now you went out of the police station that evening, late at night, eleven o'clock thereabouts? MR MOHAPE Correct. MR VISSER And you told us that area was sufficiently lit by electric lights for you to realise that the two people that arrived there were people who were unknown to you, or am I wrong? MR MOHAPE I think you're wrong. I told you that there are lights, yes, in the road, but in the minute where people came to me and a person introduced himself as a security branch, I took to their introduction of theirs that they are coming to take me home and I agreed and got into the bakkie. JUDGE NGOEPE Mr Visser, with your permission can I just ask this witness this question? Mr Mohape, these two people who came to fetch you were in the bakkie. Had they been people that were well known to you, would you have - no, no listen to the question, had they been people that were well known to you would you have identified them? MR MOHAPE Yes. MR VISSER I am really indebted to you Mr Chairman, you have put it more crisply than I was building up to do. And we know from your evidence yesterday that had balaclavas on their heads but it hadn't been pulled over their faces and you could see that they were two black persons? MR MOHAPE Yes. MR VISSER And the point where we reached yesterday was where I put to you that you had consistently refused to co-operate with, as you put it, Erasmus and Shaw and another person, Horn I think you mentioned? MR MOHAPE Yes. MR VISSER To co-operate with the security branch but nevertheless when you drove off on the bakkie after they had identified you, you had no problem talking to them about COSAS and the UDF and the ANC? MR MOHAPE No, no, I think you must not mistaken. A mere discussion with a person who is just talking to you and a person who's asking questions that he wants to use those questions against you and with those guys in the bakkie, as they just talking generally about COSAS, I was free because I've been free in the past to answer the very same questions to security branch members about COSAS and I will go to as far as telling them: "Yes I'm involved in COSAS. Yes, COSAS has it's old objectives and it has problems to achieve" and that information to me, it was not information that will incriminate me or anybody else in COSAS. Anybody knew about that because every problem of COSAS or anything have been appearing in statements in the newspapers, on T.V's and everywhere, so that was nothing new that I could hide to anybody else. MR VISSER Is it at all possible for you today to just give us general description of the body build of these two people or one of them? Were they slightly built, heavily built, tall, whatever? Can you remember? MR MOHAPE Ja, I remember the one came out of the bakkie and introduced himself as a security branch member. He was short, he was not tall, he was I think of my size now and with body, I think he was the same body or bigger than mine. MR VISSER And how would you describe that? Medium? MR MOHAPE Probably. MR VISSER Right, and the driver? MR MOHAPE The driver, I did not get his tallness because he was sitting in the car so I could not determine if this one is short or tall. MR VISSER Right, but the fact is that - let me ask you rather, did you fit in quite comfortably on the front seat between these two people in an Isuzu bakkie or was it a cramped situation? MR MOHAPE No, it was not cramped. MR VISSER Not cramped. When you gave your evidence and you mentioned the money which you received back from the police at Bayswater, our notes state that you weren't sure of the exact amount? MR MOHAPE No, I told you it was one hundred and sixty. MR VISSER So you are quite sure it was one hundred and sixty? MR MOHAPE Yes, I'm quite sure. MR VISSER Alright. The two people that came to fetch you that evening, have you ever seen them again after that day? MR MOHAPE No, since that day I did not see them. And one thing is that because I said I could not picture, put their face into my memory, therefore it is difficult for me to recall exactly, even if this person can come now here, I may not even be able to recognise him. MR VISSER Mr Mohape, is it correct that during the course of last year when evidence was lead before this committee, you did attend the hearings? MR MOHAPE Yes I've been attending hearings. MR VISSER Did you attend all the hearings or only some of them? MR MOHAPE I cannot recall correct but I attended hearings. MR VISSER Okay. Did you listen, did you hear, the evidence of Mr Ngo when he gave evidence regarding the incident concerning you? MR MOHAPE Yes, I did. MR VISSER Were you satisfied that what he was saying was the truth? MR MOHAPE Let me explain this thing. You see when a policeman or security branch comes before the Truth Commission and explains situations that I been trying to get answers to, I will listen to that statement because I want the truth and if a person comes and tell about the very same thing that I wanted to know who are the people, I will listen to that. I would want to correlate exactly with what happened to me because I want answers to exactly what happened to me. Who are those people who kidnapped me? I want that answer and if somebody comes and give information to that he is welcomed and the better if his handlers can do the very same thing. MR VISSER Mr Mohape, did what Mr Ngo said about your assault that he gave evidence about, accord with the facts as you knew them? MR MOHAPE You see, the information of Ngo in his evidence yes, correlates with what happened to me and there is one thing that I know he also said, he was not aware, he didn't hear the shots because he had already moved here that time. I don't know if he did move here that time or not but 99% of what he said, 100? what he said is correct. MR VISSER Hundred percent? MR MOHAPE Yes. MR VISSER As far as the detail as well? MR MOHAPE I don't know if details can detail if you are beaten by left or right or whatever but the whole scenario and the exact attack to me, it was exactly what happened to him. MR VISSER Yes. Just the last point, two points, on you leaving Bayswater Police Station. I'm informed that there is no general rule that when a prisoner is released, or a detainee is released, that he is automatically taken home. MR MOHAPE Who's telling you that? MR VISSER I'm instructed Mr Mohape, just answer the question. MR MOHAPE I cannot answer that, that is what they're saying but to my knowledge I know many a times I have been detained from home on the day of my release, they will pick me, wherever I've been detained at Hilton Police Station, I've been detained at Grootvlei, same Bayswater, there are so many including Park Road, so many police stations, that when upon my release they will come and fetch me. MR VISSER Yes, but I'm suggesting to you now that it wouldn't be a right that you have that if it happened it would have been a favour more than a right? MR MOHAPE I don't know. MR VISSER Yes. MR MOHAPE It was up to them. MR VISSER Right MR MOHAPE You walk out of the Bayswater Police Station, now what do you do, do you expect somebody to be there to pick you up? MR MOHAPE I think I answered you yesterday. MR VISSER Well just answer me again then. MR MOHAPE I said to you, when they came, because at that time when they told me I must go home, there was nobody who was saying "I'm taking you home", there was a police van in the police station that was going out and they never even bothered to say we must give you a lift or whatever. But I had to take it upon myself that I'm walking and when I walked the bakkie stopped and they said then they are coming to fetch me. MR VISSER Alright, well that is the answer to the question. In other words you walked out of the police station and you started walking in the direction of your home? MR MOHAPE Yes. MR VISSER Would that have been in Milner Street toward the city centre or the other direction? MR MOHAPE I don't know which Milner Street is. MR VISSER Milner Street is the road which leads from past Bayswater from Bloemfontein North into Bloemfontein. That's Milner Road - M-i-l-n-e-r. MR MOHAPE Probably that's it. MR VISSER Yes, now which direction did you walk? MR MOHAPE I was walking from the police station going down towards the city. MR VISSER Towards the city? MR MOHAPE Yes. MR VISSER How far had you moved before the bakkie? MR MOHAPE It was just in the vicinity outside the police station. MR VISSER Yes. You would walk out and you would turn left into - I don't know what the road is, and then you would turn left again in Milner Road and you'd go down towards the city centre, isn't that right? MR MOHAPE Yes. MR VISSER Were you hitchhiking? MR MOHAPE No. MR VISSER No? Alright. Now let's come to this scene of the assault. Was there a moon? MR MOHAPE Hey, man. Don't ask me that. MR VISSER Was it sufficiently light? So that you can ...[intervention] MR MOHAPE No. In the situation where you are beaten, people are all over you, you cannot see if there is a moon, it's light or it's dark or whatever because I'm confused at that time. I'm beaten by people that I never expected they could do that at that time. Why should I then stand and check if the weather is raining or it's not raining, or it's moon or it's sun when it's in actual fact dark at that time. It is clear that I, even perhaps there could have been a moon at one point or another, I may not ascertain that. MR VISSER Were there any electric lighting in that area? MR MOHAPE Mr Visser, if you want to make an inspection in loco, I think you should do that because I think that will answer some of your questions because the road that I'm talking about - the people who knows this dark road towards Grootvlei. they know there are no street lights in that side. MR VISSER Thank you, so that's the answer. But you were able to see that it was two further people who joined the original two who picked you up and who participated in your assault? MR MOHAPE You know why? Because they came to beat me up also, because they joined those ones to beat me up and it is clear when you're beaten by people who are surrounding you, you see these four figures standing before you, kicking you left and right. You can ascertain that these are four people who are doing that. MR VISSER So it was light enough to ascertain that it was four people, for example, not five? MR MOHAPE No man, I think I understand what I'm talking about. MR VISSER Now what is the answer to my question? MR MOHAPE It is clear, there were four people. In any situation where you can see figures of people, you cannot say when you are seeing there are four and then you come and see there are five because I never said I think there were five. I told you that there were four. MR VISSER And you said so and you were that certain because there was sufficient light, from whatever source, for you to see that? MR MOHAPE Yes. JUDGE NGOEPE Sorry, Mr Visser, I'm going to go back to the question of ninety 99%, 100% certain of the details. Mr Mohape, it could - I won't be able to recall details of Ngo's evidence around that, it could be that like you said, he said that you assaulted with hammers, it could be that he said, like you said too, that you were transported in a bakkie, that you were kidnapped and the like but did you hear him tell us as to who assaulted you? MR MOHAPE Yes, I heard he told names of people who assaulted me. JUDGE NGOEPE Which names do you recall he mentioned? MR MOHAPE He mentioned Tsoametsi, he mentioned himself, I can't remember the third person that he mentioned. At one point I think he mentioned Motsamai and then I understand later that was corrected to say he thought Motsamai was there because everybody was in balaclavas, something of that sort, but he could not ascertain if it was really Motsamai. JUDGE NGOEPE The people that you have mentioned, the people that Mr Ngo mentioned, were they known to you at that stage? MR MOHAPE No they were not known to me. JUDGE NGOEPE Except Ngo himself? MR MOHAPE Except Ngo himself. JUDGE NGOEPE Are you able to tell us whether they were there or not?. Let's leave Ngo aside for awhile. MR MOHAPE You know it is exactly what I've said. JUDGE NGOEPE You can't say whether they? MR MOHAPE Because they had balaclavas you know? Because I cannot recall, you know, put the picture back into my memory. JUDGE NGOEPE For whatever reason, you are not able to say whether in fact they were there or not? MR MOHAPE Correct. JUDGE NGOEPE What about Ngo, he was known to you at that time? Do you agree with him that he was there, if he says he was there? I personally don't remember. I'm not very sure what his evidence was but let's assume that in his evidence he said that he was there will you agree with him that he was there? MR MOHAPE You see, this is exactly what I am saying, Judge, you know when a person comes to desks, you know sitting and give information that he did something and is able to correlate that in terms of exactly what happened and I look at that and I see it is exactly the very same things that happened to me, I am bound to say but this person could have been there, he knows everything about what happened because I don't think he can just come with a story of something that never happened, that he never saw. JUDGE NGOEPE But that is something else, it could be that he got his story from other people you know but I mean if you know a person, you know a person. You should be in a position to either say he was there or he was not there? I'm not sure that's what he said he was there. MR MOHAPE No, I ...[intervention] JUDGE NGOEPE I'm told that in fact Mr Ngo said he was there he took part. Now considering that you knew him, surely you be able or shouldn't you be able to tell us whether what he saying is true or not true? MR MOHAPE It's exactly what I'm saying that you know what he's saying according to how he led evidence, it really tells me that he was there because he is able to explain details of their own operation. JUDGE NGOEPE You are saying he was there, not because you saw him, but because he's able to give the details? MR MOHAPE Yes, because I mean the way balaclavas and that time when I'm beaten, I cannot see in the face that this one is maybe Ngo and that because they had balaclavas on their faces. MR VISSER Perhaps I should follow on that Mr Chairman and then come back to my line of cross-examination. The four people who were beating you, were they all four black persons? MR MOHAPE Yes. MR VISSER There's no question of a doubt in your mind about that? MR MOHAPE Ja, because I'm saying you know, there is a difference between a black and white. And even if that person can put a balaclava but when he's in the process of beating you up you can see this one is black this one is white. MR VISSER And again, there was sufficient light for you to see that? MR MOHAPE When you talk about sufficient light. MR VISSER You see Mr Mohape, what is your problem with answering a simple question? I want to establish how much light there was to see what you saw because I want to be fair to you. MR MOHAPE Now I'm having a problem with that because you know, where I was as I explained yesterday you know, they parked the car next to a row of trees where I was supposed to even jump over the fence and there was general darkness but not darkness that I cannot, you know, see people, you know. MR VISSER Thank you, that's the answer thank you. And while you mention that, there was one motor car according to your recollection? MR MOHAPE No I only recollect the one that put me there I don't know if there was another one at the back. MR VISSER You didn't see any other vehicles around? MR MOHAPE No I did not see it. MR VISSER And you've just told Justice Ngoepe that you didn't know Mamome, Tsoametsi, at that time. MR MOHAPE Yes. MR VISSER How does that accord with the evidence yesterday according to our notes, where you referred to the numerous arrests of yourself and you added "Mamome was always present"? MR MOHAPE No, I think you must get this thing into context. I said yesterday and various occasions, "Mamome has part of those people who have been detaining me" ...[intervention] MR VISSER No, I'm sorry Mr Mohape just answer the question. MR MEMANI Mr Chairman, the witness is still answering the question. MR STANDER It's not Mr Memani's witness. Mr Chairman, certainly I want to object, the witness is answering the questions. We have already seen that the witness, that his answers are not precise because they want to give us the complete picture. Therefore my learned friend with great respect,t should give him the opportunity to do so because it will help the commission to great extent to make some sort of ruling on what he says and judge what he's saying. MR VISSER Please continue with your reply Mr Mohape. JUDGE NGOEPE But before he continues, Mr Visser - I think Mr Mohape, I think in the interest of progress and clarity, you should endeavour to be more precise in your answers. I think sometimes you, we appreciate that these things are emotive issues and you were subjected to certain experiences, we appreciate that, but please try to be precise in giving your answers. We'll avoid a lot of problems and a lot of delays. MR MOHAPE Ja, my answer was that I said yesterday. In many occasions and you must understand when you talk about many occasions, I've talked about being detained since I've been an activist, a member of COSAS, and even beyond the time I knew Mamome and the rest, I was still being detained and I never implied yesterday that my first detention, Mamome was there. I never implied, but he has been there until I was kidnapped, I never said that, but I said yesterday, on many occasions, when I was detained Mamome was there. MR VISSER Is that your reply? CHAIRPERSON In fairness to the witness, I would like to read my note which was that he had said: he refused to meet Ngo secretly because Ngo was an police informer and that he was arrested thereafter 10 to 15 fifteen times and: "After Ngo was working for Erasmus, he was one of those who came to my house. Mamome also always there when I was questioned by Erasmus and Shaw." So it would appear to indicate that he was talking of a period after Ngo started working for Erasmus. MR VISSER Yes, Mr Chairman, I don't want to split hairs about it but I thought that was the period of time that we were talking about now because the issue which is now being addressed is the question as to whether this witness knew Mamome at the time and ought to have recognised him if he was one of the attackers, Mr Chairman, and I want to confine myself strictly to that area, no wider than that, if you will allow me. Do you know Mr Tsoametsi, presently? MR MOHAPE Yes I know him. MR VISSER Would it be fair to describe him as fairly stout, thickset person? MR MOHAPE I don't understand your question. MR VISSER Well, how would you describe his build? Would Mr Tsoametsi just rise please. Is he here? Just step out please. And if you'll allow me to save time, Mr Chairman, a fair description of the gentleman would be, I only think in the old language, about five foot seven, five foot eight and stoutishly built. I don't know whether you will want to improve on that description? Thank you Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON That is his build today, what period are we talking about? MR VISSER Well Mr Chairman, that is the subject of our argument because we're going to indicate to the witness just now that he has placed this incident within the year of 1984. MR MOHAPE No, No. MR VISSER While Mr Ngo has indicated that it was either 1985 or 1986. We will refer you to the relevant passages, Mr Chairman. You'll come to the question, you'll have the opportunity to give you answers, don't worry Mr Mohape. MR MOHAPE No, I want to correct something quickly, before you try to make something out of that. I remember yesterday I talked about dates and later when I was requested by the Judges that I should put dates correctly because yes I said, I could not remember correct those dates and I think my dates as I know them, you know, is not 1984 it was during 1984 It was the time when we were busy investigating Ngo and all that incidents that happened never happened in 1984. So I thought then today, I would be able to come and put the dates correct as I was asked. That's why I said yesterday I will do that so that I don't have to invite unnecessary perceived contradictions by anybody else and that's exactly what I wanted to do today. ADV DE JAGER Mr Visser, I in fact requested the witness yesterday to do so and perhaps it would expedite matters if Mr Mohape had the opportunity and if you're ready, could you kindly give us dates about incidents where you were involved? MR MOHAPE Yes, the incidents of my kidnapping took place during 1986. That's when I was kidnapped, the year I was kidnapped. In 1984, December, it is when we were in conference of COSAS where we started to suspect Ngo. In 1985, conference of COSAS again, it's where Ngo came to the conference uninvited and it was when January 1986, we got the information, the list that I talked about that confirmed Ngo as an informer. ADV DE JAGER When did they arrest you for the first time? MR MOHAPE I would say my first time was arrested in 1980. ADV DE JAGER '80? MR MOHAPE Yes. The first ever detention I experienced was 1980. ADV DE JAGER And can you still remember the second time? MR MOHAPE I think beyond 1980 there were several, not detention as such, but a situation where you'll be picked up by the security branch to their offices and they put you there for hours and hours and then they ask you questions and they take you home. ADV DE JAGER Right, now between 1980 and 1986 when you were assaulted, this hammer assault, how, can you roughly say, how many time you've been arrested? Was it many times, six times? MR MOHAPE It has been many times. ADV DE JAGER Many times? MR MOHAPE Yes. ADV DE JAGER And who interrogated, who asked you questions during those arrests and detentions? MR MOHAPE At that time? ADV DE JAGER Before the assault. MR MOHAPE At that time still there was the three Prinsloos and I don't know later when Erasmus join them but what year perhaps he did join them but amongst all those you know, taking home and asking questions, he later appeared and Shaw also appeared. CHAIRPERSON Who? MR MOHAPE Shaw. ADV DE JAGER Was that also before 1986? MR MOHAPE Yes. ADV DE JAGER And Mamome, when did he appear? MR MOHAPE I knew Mamome, I think after 1986. I started to know Mamome when he was joining them like - I don't know where he has been, either he has been in those offices or whatever, but they was going against him, going to me and I will see him being part of them, that's how I knew Mamome. And I think that happened mainly generally after, you know, that the experience of the kidnapping. ADV DE JAGER And Mr Motsamai? MR MOHAPE I cannot correctly recall when did I first know Motsamai but I remember during 1986 he has also come in the picture but I don't when did I exactly knew him, from which year I've known him. MR DE JAGER Thank you. MR VISSER I've got three loose ends Mr Chairman, I'll try to remember to come back to all of them but I believe that I've now got to follow up on this. Just in regard to your reply that you got to know Mr Mamome only after your kidnapping and assault in 1986, I want to put it to you that that's an highly unlikely reply, bearing in mind that he joined the security branch already in 1980 here in Bloemfontein? MR MOHAPE No, I don't think that you must ask me. I think it's as clear as the time I knew him as Mamome, I knew him in 1986. To me that he joined the security branch in 1980 that is not my, it's not me to answer to that. MR VISSER Well I'm putting it to you that you're not telling us the truth because you're a person who had been consistently arrested, according to you evidence, since 1980. You told us yesterday that you considered the security branch to be your enemies and you would have made quite certain to know them. Certainly Mr Mohape, do you really want to tell us that you didn't know who the members of the security branch were? MR MOHAPE Don't mix the issues. It doesn't mean each and every member of the security branch I will know, not all of them. And being my business to know them, I will know them. I will not make an investigation to go and spy on them and know their names and stand in the corners and check who they are. Normally I will know them when they are harassing me when they take me to their offices, I will know who's this one. I will try to maybe get their name if I don't know the name at that time but it will not mean I had a duty to really, you know, take a book, stand in the corners and try to find out who is in the security branch offices, who are they? No, no, don't mistake that. MR VISSER But you took the trouble yesterday of singling out Mr Mamome as being, as the Chairman has put it today: "normally" I think you said, Mr Chairman. According to our note "who was always present" during you arrests but I may be wrong, I know it may be wrong and I suggested to you on the basis then, that, mostly he was present during all your arrests, your 20, 15 arrests? MR MOHAPE Correct yourself. MR STANDER I must object, Mr Chairman, the witness agreed clearly, after 1986 not before 1986. After 1986 Mamome was then on a continuous basis present. MR VISSER Mr Chairman, may I make a suggestion to progress with this matter, it's already clear that there is no way in which we will finish by next Friday, we'll ...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON If we continue like this Mr Visser. MR VISSER No, it's obvious Mr Chairman, that we're not going to finish. We'll have to obtain a record anyway. I'm going to step off these points and leave it for argument on the record after we've obtained it, Mr Chairman, because it's quite, my submission to you - and I don't want to enter into an argument now, he never made that qualification which is now relied upon by my learned friend Mr Stander but I want to go forward. CHAIRPERSON I read the thing that he said apparently it was after Ngo that he started seeing Mamome there. That is the qualification, Mr Visser. MR VISSER Is that a - today is the qualification, certainly, but not yesterday. CHAIRPERSON Yesterday - I read it in my notes, that he said: "after Ngo was working for Erasmus". MR VISSER Thank you, Mr Chairman, well that's why I say rather leave it for the record because I can't remember. At all events, I'm suggesting to you that you would have know pretty well who the members of the security branch, were given the activities in which you were involved ...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON Mr Visser can't you please qualify your answer, that he would have known the members of the security branch engaged in investigating COSAS. There were members of the security branch doing all sorts of other things and you have continually been suggesting to him that he would have known all the members of the security branch. MR VISSER I take your point and I stand corrected Mr Chairman. Let me put it more crisply to you. I would suggest to you, given the activities in which you were involved, you would have known Mr Mamome long before 1986, isn't that so Mr Mohape? MR MOHAPE Well that's your assumption. MR VISSER You disagree with that? MR MOHAPE I disagree with that. MR VISSER Alright. How did you now establish since yesterday until this morning, the dates that you have just given us? MR MOHAPE I think I was clear to say I need to sit down and recollect the events and the dates and the years and I've done that, I've consulted with my lawyer and I've done that. MR VISSER Didn't you consult with Mr Ngo? MR MOHAPE No man, I'm not going to answer that. MR VISSER You're free not to answer it. Were you talking to Mr Ngo here this morning? MR MOHAPE I have been talking to him, greeting him every day like everybody else. MR VISSER Thank you. You see at page 222 of the record - Mr Chairman, at the bottom of the page, there are some questions put by Mr Stander to Mr Ngo. He says, now according to Mr Mohape, that's you, he was and then he breaks off and then he says "They started beating him up at the stage when he was in the bakkie" as you've testified here. "but he didn't know it was Warrant Officer Tsoametsi and Mamome because he didn't know them at that stage" which is the same evidence as you've given here today. Ngo's then asked by Mr Stander "Is that true as far as you are concerned?" Ngo say at page 223: "That can be the truth because they came with him but we met them whilst only after they have kidnapped him, I wouldn't know about that" Then he goes down the page, at page 223, approximately in the middle Mr Chairman: Mr Stander: "How many of you are there? We know there were two vehicles, the one with Tsoametsi and Mamome. Now, the other vehicle. Who was in the other vehicle?" Mr Ngo: "It was myself, Motsamai and Mtyhala" "Where did you get the weapon from with which he was assaulted?" and then he goes on. Then the third line from the bottom: "Did all of you people assault him?" "Yes we all assaulted him" etc. Now, in the record when Mr Ngo himself gives evidence - I though that page 222 Mr Chairman, may I just check on that, it is in the bundle of evidence which you refer to as A2. ADV DE JAGER Do you want to put a question to the witness in this regard? Well I think then you should break it up because it's no use reading the whole bundle of evidence and then start questioning him. MR VISSER But Mr Chairman, I can put the question. Mr Ngo says that there were five blacks and one white present the evening when you were assaulted - Mr Ngo, did I say Motsamai? Let me tell you who says they were - Mamome, Tsoametsi, Motsamai, Ngo, Mtyhala and he later in his evidence added Cronje. CHAIRPERSON Do have any comment on that Mr Mohape. MR MOHAPE No I think my comment is going to be simple, if you can read to the statement of Ngo, there was a question mark about Motsamai and if you want to to ...[intervention] ... JUDGE NGOEPE Do you have any comment on that Mr Mohape? MR MOHAPE I think my comment is going to be simple. If you can read to the statement of Ngo, there was a questions mark about Motsamai and if you want to ...[intervention] ADV DE JAGER Please Mr Mohape, the statement is there was five blacks and one white, do you agree with that or don't you agree? MR MOHAPE No, I don't agree with that. ADV DE JAGER Thanks. MR VISSER What has now appeared from your reply, however, is that you studies the application from Mr Ngo. MR MOHAPE Ag man you know, statements are here with my lawyer and I read what I can read in any statement and there's nothing wrong with that. MR VISSER I'm not suggesting to you there is something wrong with that, just placing the matter, the fact, on record Mr Mohape. Page 30, Mr Chairman, it's the middle of the page. Page 30 of the bundle which is marked A2 according to the Honourable Chairman: "Were you alone when you kidnapped Mr Mohape?" asks my learned friend Mr Memani. Mr Ngo say "No, it was Ditsametsi" which was later corrected to mean, intend to mean Tsoametsi. "Mamome, Mtyhala and Cronje. That evidence is quite clearly apart from myself and Mr Motsamai" A moment Mr Chairman. - And he qualifies the attackers at page 34, in fairness to this witness, page 34 of that same bundle, where he simply says this: "The white man, Cronje was left behind in the car" That left five, five black persons on the assault. What do you say about that evidence? Do you disagree with that because you say there were four. MR MOHAPE I say people who attacked me were four. To say there were five I cannot say, I could have not checked if how many there were is one was in the car or whatever but the people who attacked me at that time were four. MR VISSER While they were attacking you, were they talking, were they shouting, saying anything? MR MOHAPE So many things were said, they were swearing at me. MR VISSER Yes. CHAIRPERSON Is Mr Ngo here at page 30, that you've just referred us to, saying there were four people who attacked you? MR VISSER Mr Chairman, I can give you all the evidence, it's quite clear ...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON Yes, I'm asking you about page 30 Mr Visser, the passage you've just referred to is there, saying there were four people who attacked him. MR VISSER Mr Chairman, ...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON "Were you alone when you when you kidnapped Mr Mohape?" "No Tsoametsi, Mamome, Mtyhala and Cronje" Then he takes Cronje out, so he was reducing them to four at that stage. MR VISSER Yes, except, Mr Chairman, and I will refer you to that evidence in due course, that it is quite clear that what he said was that Motsamai was there as well. And you will remember the evidence of Mr Motsamai, he said Mr Ngo was mistaken and in fact that also appears from his application as well. CHAIRPERSON So he says he wasn't there, Motsamai? MR VISSER Motsamai says he wasn't there, Ngo says he was there, yes. CHAIRPERSON Are you asking us to accept Ngo's version? MR VISSER I'm just putting it to the witness for his comment. CHAIRPERSON His comment? Can we now get on with something else, you say you're just asking for comment. MR VISSER Yes, Mr Chairman. If you want a reference, that's C, page 12, bundle C page 12 where that incident is referred to by Mr Ngo. Now you are now assaulted, and you told us yesterday, with crowbars and hammers. Am I correct? MR MOHAPE Yes. MR VISSER The issue with the crowbars, was that something which you picked up from Mr Ngo or was that something that you knew at the time? MR MOHAPE No, it was what happened to me. MR VISSER Okay. Your estimation of the duration of that attack, you said yesterday twenty to thirty minutes. Is that fairly accurate or that is just an guestimate? MR MOHAPE It is an estimate of what I believe they took, the time, it may be lesser than that or more than that but that is the estimate. MR VISSER But as it felt to you, thinking back today, would it have been at least fifteen minutes? Would that be a fair assessment of the duration or what? MR MOHAPE Probably. MR VISSER Mr Mohape, your second name - I'm just waiting for - here I've got it, is your name also Mosoeunyane? MR MOHAPE Mosoeunyane? MR VISSER Yes. M-o-s-o-e-u-n-y-a-n-e. MR MOHAPE Yes. MR VISSER Did you speak to any of the investigators of the investigation unit of the TRC in regards to this kidnapping and assault on you? MR MOHAPE Yes, I remember I met Pula Zwane and I explained to him and he was asking me questions about my kidnapping, yes. MR VISSER Mr Chairman, yesterday - in regard to Mr Motsamai, you referred me to the fact that his part of the investigation report, that bundle was E1. I'm not certain whether the part concerning Mr Ngo is also E1 or whether it has a different identification. CHAIRPERSON Bundle E1 is Ngo, Bundle E2 is Motsamai. MR VISSER Thank you Mr Chairman. I will then refer you Mr Chairman, to the bundle E1 concerning Mr Nelson Ngo - and unfortunately these papers are not paginated but the page I wish to refer you to, the previous page to that, is marked 1.1 and it appears to be a telefax transmission and the telefax numbering at the top of the page is page 03 and it is dated 18 August 1997. It is a document, Mr Chairman, which says: "Document Details", the heading, and it has columns on the page. I don't know whether you can see this far, Mr Chairman, I can hold it up for you to try and identify. Let me explain, Mr Chairman, there's and introduction, a typed introduction, it runs up to page 19. Now if you just look after page 19, the very first document after that. CHAIRPERSON Is 1.1, which is a whole lot of document details. MR VISSER: Yes, I'm going to refer you to the second page of that document. The fax, typewritten page is 03 on the right top side. Now according to documentation received by us from the Investigation Unit of the Truth and Reconciliation Commission, there is this document and I want to tell you what it says. It says: "Perpetrator Motsamai (SB) Security Branch picked them, Mohape, White, Musamjani(?). Human rights violation type: it says: "HRV type - severe ill treatment, severely beaten." Now do you recall that you spoke to an investigator of the TRC about this incident? MR MOHAPE I think I've explained even yesterday, that yes, Motsamai has been involved in other instances where I frog-jumped at Fountain, and to me that was severe assault to me. MR VISSER Well I don't know why we have to make it so involved. Did you discuss the incident where you kidnapped and severely assaulted with an investigator from the TRC? MR MOHAPE Yes, I have. MR VISSER Thank you. And did you tell him that the details were that you were beaten by a hammer and fists and by guns? MR MOHAPE I think I've explained that. Everything was used on me including what I said was a tyre lever, that you can call it a crowbar whatever, but a weapon was used and if perhaps the investigating officer could have not by that time picked on that, maybe it is something else but yes, everything was used on me. MR VISSER Alright, I have certain submissions which I'll make about that reply, we'll go on. The outcome, says this document details, is that you sustained injuries "in his left foot and he was also to run naked". MR MOHAPE Yes. MR VISSER After being assaulted with crowbars and hammers and guns for at least fifteen minutes by four people, is that likely? MR MOHAPE You know if you could get the medical examination of Dr Magoni about the back sore, my body, then you'll understand what I said was feasible, the scars that I had when I was forced to jump the fence but in that, my body was sore and in Dr Magoni's medical record he can point out what I'm talking about. MR VISSER I'm suggesting to you Mr Mohape that in normal human experience, if a person is continuously assaulted all over his body with a hammer and a crowbar for more than 15 minutes, you would at least have been incapacitated if not dead. MR MOHAPE You see Mr Visser, you're unfortunate not to really understand the situation as it was and of course I expect that of you to try to sway the information as much as possible to your side. But the fact of the reality chief, is that I was beaten, I got injuries and those scars I will never forget, say whatever you may say. But I'm saying to run naked at night with your pants, you don't think that is a nice thing to do Mr Visser, you cannot expect me to say I was not hurt, I had no pain that day, you cannot expect that from me. I will land up saying you are representing people who are not interested in telling the truth. MR VISSER Mr Chairman, are you going to intervene in this. There is a personal attack on an officer of the TRC, I'm here to act as an officer, to assist the TRC Mr Chairman, I'm subjected continuously to personal abuse and personal attacks by the witnesses, Mr Chairman. With great respect, I ask your protection. CHAIRPERSON Do you think you need protection from these people Mr Visser? MR VISSER In any event Mr Mohape, I'm putting to you what the TRC investigator is telling us you told him, It's nothing that I'm saying, I'm not saying a word about it. MR MOHAPE Mr Visser yes, those are the things that I said, but they were not enough. If I am allowed time to explain in details how I was beaten, perhaps you'll understand me better. JUDGE NGOEPE I think we need to be a little bit more careful with the facts here Mr Visser, actually you are not putting to him what the TRC said. What you are saying is, you put it to him, which is not contained in the papers, you are saying to him: "If a person would have been assaulted with a hammer, with hammer ...[indistinct] it's ...[indistinct] of that time, you would have been incapacitated or died". Now that is not contained in those papers and at any rate what you're putting to the witness, if this needs to be stated is factually incorrect. It would depend on the intensity of the assault, the intention of the people. If they did not want to kill him but just to torture him, they would know where to hit him with the hammer, maybe three four times with intervals. You make a very sweeping statement that he would have been killed. It's not necessarily correct, it depends on so many factors but anyway the witness has answered. MR VISSER Mr Chairman, let's leave it. CHAIRPERSON The witnesses version is quite clearly that this was intended to be a prolonged torture, not to do him injury. You will probably know that if you go on patting the person on one place, with fairly gentle blows, it causes great pain and you put, as my brother put to you, you specifically put something different which has not arisen from the TRC report. MR VISSER Yes. Mr Chairman, indeed I was putting an inference that I'm going to ask you to draw because if you want to torture a person for a prolonged period of time, you don't use a crowbar. When you use a crowbar and a hammer ...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON He explained yesterday in his evidence when he used the word crowbar that this was a tyre lever, didn't he, a nice flat piece of metal. MR VISSER With whatever, Mr Chairman, but this is a question for argument, with due respect. CHAIRPERSON Let's get on and don't go on putting things like that to him if it's a question of argument. MR VISSER Mr Mohape, you were asked by Mr Stander whether you sustained injuries which left any marks on your body. Do you remember that? MR MOHAPE Yes. MR VISSER And please tell me if I'm wrong, was my impression correct that what you have retained is a small mark on your left leg. Is that what you said? MR MOHAPE I had a scratch in my left leg. I had a wound and in the course of time, that scratch disappeared but there is a spot where I can point that wound and I'm saying if you can take, if you can understand, that a scratch at one point or another disappears. And probably I'll also want to correct one thing because I think I sustained on two sides of the feet and I wanted to check this scratch that I talked about, it's on my right hand leg were also with the wound on the left hand side, I need to ascertain that because it's something that happened over a period of time and I said I had those scratches and some of them disappeared and I think possibly one is visible if it is still.... MR VISSER And the scratch mark, you told us yesterday, was caused by you jumping over the fence. MR MEMANI Mr Chairman, as I understand the situation, if Mr Mohape sustained injuries and those injuries were severe, it is bad for my application and on the other hand whether or not Mr Mohape suffered injuries, it does not matter to Mr Visser because they're saying that his clients were not involved in this thing and it does not seem to me what the relevance of this line of questions is in the light of the nature of his appearance and his clients' position in these proceedings. MR VISSER May I reply very briefly, Mr Chairman? There are two aspects. One is of course the evidence of the applicants but it's also our duty to point out to you, if we can, probabilities or improbabilities which point to the fact that the witnesses are not telling the truth and is simply on that basis of credibility, Mr Chairman. May I continue Mr Chairman? CHAIRPERSON Continue with what you consider to be relevant, Mr Visser. MR VISSER Thank you Mr Chairman. The question was, the scratch that told you yesterday that left a mark was caused by you jumping the fence, is that correct? MR MOHAPE Yes. MR VISSER MR MOHAPE You see that's why I'm saying, you know when you look at dates, this thing happened some time ago. But a time where I - if I remember that I will say this was the date and probably the year may not have been the same or the same you know year, as I'm saying. The road is De Wet's Dorp Road, not De Wet's Dorp because De Wet's Dorp is about 110 kilometres from Bloemfontein. MR VISSER But you were never assaulted with a hammer at De Wet's Dorp that we know? MR MOHAPE No, not at De Wet's Dorp. MR VISSER Yes, thank you and to make it absolutely clear, have you been assaulted by, as you allege, members of the security branch with a hammer on only this occasion or on other occasions as well? MR MOHAPE No, on this occasion of the kidnapping. MR VISSER Alright. ...[intervention] ADV DE JAGER The fact that it happened at De Wet's Dorp, it's wrongly stated? MR MOHAPE No, it's wrongly stated. ADV DE JAGER And there's a date stated, 1984, is that a correct date or is it a wrong date? MR MOHAPE No, I think it is the wrong date. MR VISSER Thank you, Mr Commissioner. Now there's a column on this page and it deals with perpetrators. Now did you tell the investigator who spoke to you that the perpetrator's were the following people: Bester: S.A.P.? MR MOHAPE Yes. MR VISSER Yes? MR MOHAPE No, no, let me correct you in that. Bester is one, the one - in actual fact yesterday I was saying Erasmus knows best, the one involved in the beating after or when I was arrested for stabbing Ngo. It's where Bester, Major Ben and Van Dyk were involved. So I will tell you when I explained to the investigating officer I was telling him that those people had been involved in my beating at Bloomspruit Police Station where I was stripped naked by them and beaten with a hosepipe. MR VISSER Mr Mohape, let there be no doubt about the incident that I'm talking about. It's the incident, the one occasion and the one and only occasion when you were assaulted with a hammer. MR MOHAPE Bester was not involved there. MR VISSER Did you tell the investigator ...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON As I understand the paper you have read to him, you started off reading Perpetrator Motsamai at the top of the page and then you said it referred to the incident below. You are now coming to a lot more perpetrators and there is an incident on the next page about his incarceration in contravention Sections 29 and 50. Are those perpetrators not relating to that incident? Isn't that the way - how this form is filled in? MR VISSER May I just consider that because you may very well be right, Mr Chairman. Now starting from the previous page, Mr Chairman, if one can try to understand how the, what the procedure is here, it starts off with the victim and his particulars and then it seems to start with victim again and the perpetrator so first it's victim and then perpetrator. So there's one on the first page then it goes to the second one also marked 27. They're all marked the same numbers, White Mohape and then 84 Bloemfontein Vulamasango School and then perpetrator Motsamai. So it would seem almost in connection with the previous one and then it would seem that it starts with the third one as victim White Mohape, beaten with hammer and fists and that the perpetrators are then the ones that follow until we come to the next page, Mr Chairman. So then my question would be fair if that interpretation is correct. CHAIRPERSON If it is I don't think it is. MR VISSER I have no idea Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON So I don't think you can put it to him if you have no idea, you can't put to him something that you don't know to be correct. If you will look at the bottom of the page after those perpetrators there are witnesses set out. ADV DE JAGER Mr Chairman, I have kept quiet thus far as a result of the line of cross-examination that's being followed. I mean that one thing is very clear here. This document from which my learned friend is doing his cross-examination was not compiled by him, I'm now referring to the witness. We are not even sure if all the information included in that has been conveyed by this witness to that person. There is a misunderstanding about which people are being implicated where and I mean, that it is totally unfair for this witness to have to reply to that if we do not even know whether this is the information that has been given by him. ADV DE JAGER I think Mr Visser, let us put it clearly, you are doing your cross-examination out of a document from the Commission, a TRC document and I think you're entitled to do that, it's been provided to you, it's not a document that you compiled yourself but I think that in all fairness, if one looks at the document it seems as if it's a summary of all the events regarding this witness and not only the hammer event or incident. So if the evidence of this witness regarding the incident in which he was involved where he was assaulted by four persons and he doesn't know who those four are, that is all evidence that he is giving us. It is true that evidence, the applicants' evidence that there are some differences in their evidence. Is it not a question of further argument what deductions the Committee must make out of it or not and can we not on that basis, if we look at the evidence before you, can the proceedings not be shortened on that basis? Can we go any further by doing cross-examination which is not already on record or can be argued? MR VISSER Commissioner de Jager you are correct, but I would just like to say in my own defence it's not that I continued with something after this argument was raised but at the moment when the Chairman mentioned it to me, I conceded that there could be a possible problem with the interpretation. What I do want to propose is that I leave this document. I might just add that we went to look for documents because the Chairman reminded us yesterday that there was a document which involved Mr White Mohape and he couldn't remember what it was. And last night when we were working on this case, we thought that these were the documents and that is why we are placing it in front of you today. CHAIRPERSON What I think it makes the cross-examination even more unfair Mr Visser is, you will recollect the witness said that he spoke to a member of, a TRC investigator, Pula Zwane, it's the only one he spoke to. This document that you are relying on appears, I can say no more than appears, to be signed by P Maharaj. His name appears at the bottom of each page. I don't think ...[intervention] MR VISSER Mr Chairman, may I make - in order to attempt to step off this matter, may I make the suggestion that we establish through Mr Brink or otherwise precisely how the investigation unit make their notes, what is meant with this document and if necessary Mr Chairman, we can come back to you and we might then lead the witness or ask Mr Brink to present that witness to you who did the interview with Mr Mohape and ...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON Is there any point in wasting more time on this, Mr Visser? MR VISSER Mr Chairman, ...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON We are here to decide on the applications of Mr Ngo and Mr Motsamai, that is the purpose of this hearing. MR VISSER And this witness Mr Chairman, let us make no mistake about that, has been tendered to you to support the evidence of Mr Ngo. CHAIRPERSON Yes, and you have put to him that he is being untruthful you have put to him that your witnesses will contradict what he said, right. MR VISSER Yes. But Mr Chairman, may I just reply to your question, Mr Chairman? I have to just reply and that is just to say this. On the way in which we read the document, which may be wrong, if it turns out at the end of the day that he gave entirely different perpetrators, it is a relevant point for you to know Mr Chairman and I take it no further than that and that is what I've been trying to bring to your attention. You've now corrected me and said that I may be wrong ...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON It is surely something that must be put to Mr Ngo if that is the position? MR VISSER Alright Mr Chairman, let's step off this thing. Mr Mohape, I spoke to Colonel Erasmus about your allegations and I'm going to put to you what he says and you can respond it you wish. He says that he was never involved in the fabrication of any evidence, in any court case including the one of Mr Ngo, as far your allegation in that regard is concerned. MR MOHAPE I don't expect him to accept that. MR VISSER Okay. He was in fact Mr Ngo's handler, together with Lieutenant Shaw. MR MOHAPE Yes, because every time I will see them in his office, yes that one is true. MR VISSER And the same denial is made by Lieutenant Shaw and you say you expected that? MR MOHAPE Saying that they were not handlers of Ngo? MR VISSER No, no, that he denies that he ever tampers with evidence before a Court of Law. MR MOHAPE It is the same I will expect. MR VISSER He also denies - I'm sorry I'm talking about Mr Erasmus, he also denies that he attempted to obtain your services as an informer. MR MOHAPE I expect that. MR VISSER Yes, I have not been able to verify that as far as the other person, I think it was Mr Horn that you spoke about, I haven't got the note in front of me, I can't put any evidence in that regard to you. Mr Erasmus tells me that he has no recollection at all about this typed note in Afrikaans or the discussion which you testify to around this note. If you could give us a little closer information, it might be that one could juggle his memory but you'll have to tell us what was in the note. Surely you can read Afrikaans? MR MOHAPE: No. MR VISSER You can't? MR MOHAPE I can read Afrikaans, but I cannot understand what I'm reading. CHAIRPERSON Don't you remember he asked for a black constable to interpret it? MR VISSER No, no Mr Chairman. But you were at school? MR MOHAPE Yes. MR VISSER Did you receive tuition in Afrikaans? MR MOHAPE Oh, Mr Visser, you know let me tell you, I had ...[intervention] ADV DE JAGER Mr Mohape, let's not have a discussion about it, yes or no. MR MOHAPE Okay. What was I saying to you ...[intervention] ADV DE JAGER Let's keep it short. MR VISSER I'm sorry what are you saying? MR MOHAPE What are you saying, what is your question? MR VISSER I'm just asked if you received tuition in a subject Afrikaans when you were at school? MR MOHAPE Yes, I did. MR VISSER Tsoametsi will tell the Commission ...[intervention] MR MOHAPE Can we please Mr Visser finish with Erasmus? MR VISSER Alright. MR MOHAPE Because I was going to say, if Erasmus says he cannot recollect that, let him also say he cannot recollect a letter that was written in his office by one of his typists that was supposed to have come from Sakau and that letter, his receptionist brought it in whilst I was in his office and when the receptionist told him that he has finished - she was not aware he's with somebody else, he tried to tell that person to go away because I've already seen the letter of Sakau where a letter was typed and that woman said to him he has finished the typing that letter. If he cannot recollect that, then it means, honestly, he will never recollect all the things that he has done to all of us. MR VISSER We'll deal on merit with your reply later, Mr Mohape. I'm not going to take you up on your challenge. I want to ask you this. The incident where, which you spoke about, where you were assaulted in the office where Erasmus was present and he told you to look out of the window and a black hood was drawn over you head and you were assaulted with broomsticks. Remember that, that incident? MR MOHAPE And kicks. MR VISSER Right, and kicks and you got hold of a broomstick and they all ran away? That's the incident that I'm referring to. My first question to you is this, was that the only time that you were assaulted with broomsticks and after a hood of some kind had been drawn over your head, a sack or a hood or whatever you want to call it, was that the one occasion or were there other occasions as well that the same thing happened in Erasmus' room? MR MOHAPE No, I said that is what happened in that office. CHAIRPERSON Erasmus'room? MR MOHAPE I don't know if that - that one was not Erasmus' room. MR VISSER Alright. Can I then rephrase the question just to identify this particular incident where Erasmus was present in a room with others? MR MOHAPE Correct. MR VISSER Yes. Do you have a defective eye? MR MOHAPE Yes. MR VISSER Which is the defective eye? MR MOHAPE The left one. MR VISSER The left one. You see Mr Mohape, Mr Motsamai gave evidence about that issue at page 708 of the record. And I think in fairness to you, I'm going to read the evidence it's just about a page. It starts in the middle of the page at page 708. It starts with the heading "White Mohapi" and I'm going to suggest that it refers to you. "He also falls under the same category under the instructions of Colonel Coetzee and Lieutenant Shaw." That's Motsamai speaking. Then Lieutenant Shaw: " He has done frog jumps because he was the Chairman of COSAS in Free State". Sorry, Mr Chairman, am I going too quickly, have you found the passage? Middle of the page 708: "His assaults were greater than the rest of the people so that he must stop this activity, stop organising so that COSAS should develop and grow." May I ask the interpreters, am I going too quickly? "I still remember, after the frog jumps he was taken by Warrant Officer Calitz into his office, I was there. It was Calitz, myself and Mamome" and obviously you. Listen very carefully to what I'm reading to you now. "Calitz, Motsamai, Mamome and yourself in Calitz's office, what happened there? His eye on his left hand side can't see properly but the one on the right hand side is still clear. I can't remember well in which sight but what happened there, this man Calitz, he went to the side of the visually impaired eye and then he took a sack, then they took a broomstick, that is Calitz, then he hit this boy with - on the it says here - it clearly means head, Mr Chairman, we will submit "(head) regularly. He tried to pull himself out of the sack but he was not successful and they continued to assault him on the head saying: he doesn't understand, he is influencing other children not to go to school. He's organising COSAS's activities, he must stop organising for COSAS." The last paragraph says: "During the time when he was hitting him" referring to Calitz and probably Mamome as well because he does also refer to "they were" "hitting him on the head and Mamome holding him, I went to the passage to close the door" because" it continues to say that you were screaming and he didn't want people to hear your screaming so that they could not find out what was going on. Now, which incident is this? MR MOHAPE It's this incident. MR VISSER The very same one? MR MOHAPE Same one. MR VISSER However, your evidence, your recollection, is that the people who were present were Horn, correct? MR MOHAPE No, you are lying. CHAIRPERSON Who did you say? MR MOHAPE I said yesterday. CHAIRPERSON No I am asking Mr Visser, what ...[intervention] MR VISSER Horn - H-o-r-n Mr Chairman. It's the note under the sentence which starts "He was picked up by Motsamai and he was at security head office and ordered by Motsamai to do frog jumps and Mamome also ordered me to do frog jumps and kicked me in the back" That was the evidence. And then he said who was present. It would be helpful if you could find your note Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON ...[inaudible] got present Erasmus, Prinsloo, Shaw and others. MR VISSER He was very specific Mr Chairman, he mentioned Horn, he mentioned Mamome and he mentioned Motsamai. MR MOHAPE Mr Visser, let me help you. I said to you yesterday when I was in that office they were coming in and out and at the second when something was put over my head, it was after Erasmus said I must look over the window and in that second when I looked through the window, somebody put that hood on me, you understand? MR VISSER I don't understand because I just do not understand why Mr Motsamai was applying for amnesty in regard to this incident wouldn't have told this Committee that Mr Erasmus was present. I just don't understand that, if that in fact happened. And that leads me to the statement to you that Mr Erasmus will say that you're telling a lie, that he was never present. MR MOHAPE It's up to him. MR VISSER When you were assaulted, if at all. MR MOHAPE It's up to him. MR VISSER Alright. What do you say about the evidence of Mr Motsamai that it was Calitz who assaulted you with Mamome holding you? MR MOHAPE No, I don't have a problem with that because I'm saying there were other people, maybe I did not know coloureds by the name but I mentioned yesterday that there were other people in that office. And in that second when Erasmus said I must look over the window, somebody put the hood, this thing back over my head and it is correct if Motsamai comes and say it was coloureds, then he knows them yes, because he worked with them. MR VISSER Mr Mohape, I'm trying to wrap this up for so far as there may be confusion or uncertainty about it, were you part of the group of 19 people who tried to skip the country? MR MOHAPE No, no. MR VISSER Thank you. The person that you referred to vaguely in your evidence that was protected by you, was that a person by the name of Khoze? MR MOHAPE Correct yes. MR VISSER How do you spell that? MR MOHAPE It's K-h-o-z-e, something of that sort. MR VISSER Se or Ze whatever. But that was the person who was suspected of being an informant of Mr Motsamai, have I got this right or not? MR MOHAPE It's what was said. MR VISSER Yes. And this happened in the hall, the students' hall? MR MOHAPE Yes. MR VISSER And there were chairs thrown about etc. and I think you said yesterday you were in fact one of the people who tried to protect you from being attacked or didn't you say that? MR MOHAPE You see I think it will be correct if I was allowed to correctly put that you know, in sequence, so that you know how it happened. Can I do that? MR VISSER You see, I don't want to cut you short in any way, but it's not a terribly relevant point, with great respect, I'm not going to rely on it. The only reason why I'm putting the question to you is just to allow the Committee Members to place matters in perspective with the evidence of Oupa Makubalo who also gave evidence about this and Mr Motsamai who told this Committee that he was listening over the earphones about what was going on in the hall. That was that incident and the only reasons for the question through you was just to place the Committee to remind them that it is that situation. Nothing else turns on it. MR MOHAPE Alright. MR VISSER You are, are you a blood relationship of Jannie Mohape? MR MOHAPE Yes. MR VISSER Jannie Mohape was charged and found guilty and imprisoned? MR MOHAPE Yes. MR VISSER Who was the investigating officer in that case? MR MOHAPE I don't know. MR VISSER You don't know? MR MOHAPE Because that time I also ran away because they wanted to charge me also in that case. MR VISSER You were never told that it was Mr Erasmus, this Mr Erasmus sitting next to me, that was the investigating officer? MR MOHAPE No, nobody told me that. MR VISSER How did you feel about Mr Ngo? What was your personal feelings about him? Was it one of friendliness, one of less friendliness? MR MOHAPE During which period? MR VISSER Well, you were at school together, you're both on COSAS, there's some sort of a leadership competition it seems between you and Mr Ngo, am I right? MR MOHAPE No, you are wrong, you are saying we were in competition. MR VISSER He never stood a chance of being elected to the executive for example? MR MOHAPE No, don't screw the facts. When I was at school with Ngo, Ngo was in the executive of COSAS and when you are in that executive you don't compete for positions. MR VISSER Even though one of the two people who might be eligible to become the Chairman, the one is more popular with the students than the other? You say that's not a problem? MR MOHAPE Those were not politics of students, to compete for positions. MR VISSER I see, alright. But you certainly didn't feel so friendly disposed to him? MR MOHAPE I don't understand what you're saying. MR VISSER I say, I'm putting to you that you certainly couldn't have felt friendly disposed to him when you established as a fact in your own mind that he was an informer? MR MOHAPE No, don't confuse issues. When Ngo was at a point when we were gathering information about him, it was very clear to us or to me in particular, that I will not show any antagonism to him because by doing that I will then allow him to suspect that we were suspecting him. But I had to be friendly with him and work with him and not raise any eyebrows with him, him being involved with us in COSAS doing everything because we were investigating him. CHAIRPERSON As I understood the question, you weren't being asked about what your public behaviour was, you were being asked what your personal feelings were and speaking for myself, I would have been extremely antagonistic towards somebody who was on the executive of one of an organisation that I belonged to but at the same time was acting as a police informer against that organisation. MR MOHAPE I won't be and I will tell you why. You can't be antagonistic to a person that you suspect before you are able to gather information that can expose him as an informer. You will work with that person close, monitor that person but deep down know that this person you don't trust. CHAIRPERSON Yes, that's the point. MR VISSER Yes, point taken. But let's go one step further. You now found out he's a police informer, you've established that in your own mind, he's assaulted and you are charged with murder. How do you feel now about Ngo? - attempted murder I'm sorry. MR MOHAPE You know, at that time, yes, when I was charged for that, I was surely angry. MR VISSER Thank you. And just on this issue, the last aspect, is it correct that the sister of your brother, Jannie Mohape I think - please stop me if I'm wrong, I don't have the family tree, is a person named Selena and she's married to one of the Mzuzwana's is that right or is it the other way round? MR MOHAPE It's the other way round. MR VISSER I'm sorry, just put that on, place that on record for us please. Selena is a sister to? MR MOHAPE No, no, there was no Selena involved. There is Nontsokolo Mzuzwana who is married to my brother Jannie. MR VISSER Jannie Mohape during the mid 1980's, 84, 85, 86, did he have a motor vehicle that he at his disposal that he was driving either as his property or whatever? MR MOHAPE Yes, he had. MR VISSER What car was that or what vehicle was that? MR MOHAPE It was a Ford. MR VISSER Cortina? MR MOHAPE Cortina, light green. MR VISSER And - light green? MR MOHAPE Light green if I can remember. MR VISSER And would that have been a sedan car or a LDV? MR MOHAPE No, it was a sedan. MR VISSER And Eliaha Mohape, is he also a brother to you? MR MOHAPE He was my uncle. MR VISSER Your uncle. And did he have a minibus? MR MOHAPE Yes. MR VISSER As far as your own knowledge goes, was there an attack on either of these two vehicles? MR MOHAPE There has been an attack. MR VISSER On which or on both? MR MOHAPE On both cars. MR VISSER On both. Let's just quickly take the Cortina, was that vehicle destroyed or was it just burnt and repaired and used again? MR MOHAPE I cannot recall beyond that what happened to it. MR VISSER Okay and as far as the minibus was concerned I think our information was completely destroyed, was it? No, no I'm sorry, I withdraw that. Do you know what happened to the minibus? Was that completely destroyed or could it be used again after the attack? MR MOHAPE I think it was used later for some time. MR VISSER Mr Chairman, I do believe that's the end of my questions, may I just make quite certain Mr Chairman, whether the isn't another note? Yes, Mr Chairman, thank you I have no further questions. I did put to you Mr Mohape that all allegations of assault, kidnapping, any unlawful conduct which you have addressed to any of the persons that I appear for will be denied. Do you understand that? MR MOHAPE I expected that. MR VISSER Yes, thank you. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VISSER CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR DU PLESSIS Thank you, Mr Chairman, only one or two questions. Mr Mohape, you were charged with attempted murder is that right? MR MOHAPE Yes. MR DU PLESSIS And together with some of your fellow students at COSAS is that right? MR MOHAPE Correct. MR DU PLESSIS The attempted murder of who was that? MR MOHAPE Of Ngo. MR DU PLESSIS Of Ngo. And did Ngo testify at that trial. MR MOHAPE Yes, he testified. MR DU PLESSIS And what was the result of the trial? MR MOHAPE I was acquitted. MR DU PLESSIS You were acquitted? MR MOHAPE Yes. MR DU PLESSIS Now can you remember Mr Mohape, if in the Judgement any finding was made in relation to Mr Ngo's testimony? MR MOHAPE I cannot recall. MR DU PLESSIS Can you remember if he was found a credible witness or not? MR MOHAPE I cannot recall that. What happened is that I only remember the time when the Judge was giving and we were acquitted to that, to say the evidence led was not sufficient and then we were acquitted on those grounds I think. MR DU PLESSIS Alright, thank you. May I just ask one last question? Is there anybody else here who was involved in that trial who may be able to enlighten on this question if Mr Ngo's credibility, if there was a credibility finding in respect of Mr Ngo? MR MOHAPE No, I don't ...[intervention] ADV DE JAGER Even if there was, could we sort of rely on that? MR DU PLESSIS Yes, Mr Chairman, I will be able to address you in argument if I'm requested to argue later on, that that may be relevant under these circumstances and I will refer you to the relevant Law on that, that's the only reason why I want to establish that. And then one last question. When did you go to the Western Cape? MR MOHAPE I went to Western Cape in 1989. MR DU PLESSIS Alright thank you Mr Chairman, I have no further questions. MR STANDER I don't have any re-examination Mr Chairman. NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR STANDER CHAIRPERSON Perhaps you could help me with one thing Mr Mohape. You were telling us ...[intervention] MR MEMANI Mr Chair, I'm sorry, I don't know whether you forgot about me? CHAIRPERSON I took it you had none when counsel said he had no re-examination, he's sitting next to you. I assumed that you had indicated to him you were not going to question. MR MEMANI I am sorry my lord he spoke prematurely. CHAIRPERSON: Very well, carry on. CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MEMANI Thank you my lord. Yesterday you told us about Ngo at the conference saying that the COSAS from the Eastern Cape wanted to bully him. MR MOHAPE Correct. MR MEMANI Is it correct that in those circumstances Ngo was deliberately fermenting feelings of ...[indistinct] and originalism? And that he was doing that with the object of dividing the membership of COSAS? MR MOHAPE That was intended to. MR MEMANI And that was an indicator that he was working for the police? MR MOHAPI Yes you see, very quickly if I can explain this. You see in our mind it was clear. In many strategies of the security branch to ensure that there is disharmony within a student organisation, they will either ensure that some of their informers cause ethnicity where people are not going to see themselves as you know, comrades in one organisation but where they are going to see themselves as you know, Xhosas, Sothos and all that and that was one of their strategies, yes. MR MEMANI Is it correct that this morning you told us that at the time when you were abducted and assaulted in the veld you already knew Ngo? MR MOHAPE Yes. MR MEMANI Is it correct that it was dark? MR MOHAPE Yes. MR MEMANI And the people that you - were attacking you were wearing balaclavas? MR MOHAPE Correct. MR MEMANI And even if you had known someone before you would not be able to recognise him at that stage? MR MOHAPE Yes because most of the time when people were beating me I was closing my head, I was protecting my face. MR MEMANI And it is for that reason that you are unable to identify Ngo at that stage? MR MOHAPE Exactly. ADV DE JAGER And you couldn't identify his voice either? You don't know whether he was one of those screaming and shouting and swearing? MR MOHAPE Ja, because in that commotion honestly, I could not try to get anybody's voice, you know. MR MEMANI You didn't suspect that Ngo was present, did you? MR MOHAPE Well, with the security branch operators I honestly did not perhaps either suspect or did not suspect that it was him. In my mind I never perhaps thought that he was part of them. MR MEMANI Now you believe that the evidence that was led in the case against Ngo was cooked? MR MOHAPE Yes. MR MEMANI Because they brought a toy gun to court? MR MOHAPE Yes. MR MEMANI Isn't it also correct that what you were charged with was a purely criminal case of attempted murder? MR MOHAPE Exactly. MR MEMANI You'd normally not have expected Horn, Erasmus, Major Burn and other members of the security branch to have been present when you were being, when the matter was being investigated? MR MOHAPE No, I will also not expect them to be with witnesses, you know, those witnesses who were supposed to give evidence against me. I will not expect them to see them going down with them, down the stairs to the lower part of the court. MR MEMANI And that indicated clearly to you that security branch were influencing because of the case? MR MOHAPE Exactly. MR MEMANI Did I understand your evidence correctly when I made my note, a note which said that they were also present when you were accompanied to make certain pointings out? MR MOHAPE Come again? MR MEMANI Did I understand your evidence correctly when I made a note that they also accompanied you when you went to point certain things out? MR MOHAPE Where, where? MR MEMANI May I take instructions, Chairperson. MR MOHAPE I think I get what you wanted to ask me, let me answer it. Yes, at the time when I was at Bloemspruit after being arrested, there was Major Burn, Bester, Van Dyk. They took me from Bloomspruit Police Station, took me to Batho Police Station and when they arrived there, there were a lot of security branch members. All of them they were there, waiting and there was a motorcade that went towards Lereko High School and that car - I don't know what was the purpose to take me to towards Lereko High School, but in my mind I understood, either they wanted to push me to point other students that they were looking for or in actual fact they were trying to say to students: "Here we have arrested him and here perhaps his pointing you out" Because I know that has been one of their strategies and I was surprised when charged under criminal procedure then the security branch come in and be part of those investigations. MR MEMANI Is it also correct that you were not given a fair opportunity to identify the policemen who were involved? MR MOHAPE No, deliberately so I was not given that, for the fact that I went with my lawyer to ...[indistinct] and I was told that all security branch members they are under examination of some sort or whatever, so another parade will be organised. And since that time, the investigating officer, Kruger, never called me to go into another parade to go and point whoever perhaps I could, I could then could have perhaps identified. MR MEMANI And wasn't it an indicator that the police were not intent on prosecuting properly, that Mr Kruger took you to the scene after dark so that you should not be able to point out things properly. MR MEMANI That was a deliberate ploy as I could look at it. ADV DE JAGER Didn't you say it was five o'clock in the afternoon? MR MOHAPE I'm saying the time I was taken - when I went to his office, I arrived there as early as, I think it was four o'clock when he said I must be there but I waited in his office until past five and I think at that time it was .[indistinct] if I'm not mistaken and when it was late he took his friend, he was giving his friend a lift to his flat and after giving his friend a lift to his flat then we went, proceeded to that place. I was with my brother, in that instance Jannie and when we arrived to the area where you know, that thing happened it was a bit, you know it was going to be a bit dark, I don't know how can I call it but it was already sunset and it was difficult for me when he said we must look for a cartridge. I could not see anything, you know it was no longer visible, you could not see anything on the ground if you are looking for anything expect if perhaps you could have been having a torch around you. ADV DE JAGER How long after the incident was that? MR MOHAPE I think it was, if I'm not mistaken, it was about two weeks, it was after two weeks if I'm not mistaken. ADV DE JAGER And did you hear any shooting at - while you were assaulted? MR MOHAPE Yes. ADV DE JAGER How many shots? MR MOHAPE When they said I must jump a fence and I jumped that fence, somebody shot towards my direction because I was running and then they got into the car. ADV DE JAGER How many shots, I've asked you how many shots? MR MOHAPE One. ADV DE JAGER Thanks. MR MEMANI Did Mr Kruger ever suggest that you should get back to the scene during the day when you could see? MR MOHAPE No, he never suggested anything. MR MEMANI Those are my questions, Mr Chairman. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MEMANI MR BRINK No questions, thank you. NO QUESTIONS BY MR BRINK CHAIRPERSON You told us about Mr Ngo and his behaviour as a student and said he was driving a Toyota Corolla? MR MOHAPE Correct. CHAIRPERSON What colour car was that? MR MOHAPE It was a beige one. CHAIRPERSON Beige Toyota? MR MOHAPE Yes. CHAIRPERSON That's while he was still at school? MR MOHAPE Yes. ADV DE JAGER You also gave evidence that once you visited the place where he was staying and you found those documents there. MR MOHAPE Correct. ADV DE JAGER After he had been exposed and everyone knew he was a informer now, January round about 1986 I believe? MR MOHAPE Correct. ADV DE JAGER According to your evidence, because that was after the '85 COSAS Congress? MR MOHAPE Correct. ADV DE JAGER Where did he stay then, do you know? MR MOHAPE Beyond ...[intervention]. ADV DE JAGER Ja. MR MOHAPE No, I did not because ...[intervention] ADV DE JAGER After you've burned the documents. MR MOHAPE Now let me put it this way, you know we are confusing two things here. At the time when I got the documents it was December 1985 when I went there to his house and found that woman and that woman gave me the document. I'm trying to you know put it that these dates correct because you see, the conference of '84 and '85 it's, similar things happened but they're different and I would say that they are different in this fashion in '84 because I am mistaken by saying it's '85. In '84 it is when '83 December when we went to the first conference when we were telling him that he cannot, let me get the dates correct, I'm sorry to confuse dates a bit but I want to put them clear. The first conference that we had was December, let me see, let me see, it is December '83/'84, yes it is '83 December when we got the documents whilst he was staying at Pahameng then in '84 December it is when we were going to the conference, the second conference and then in that one it is when he took documentation from other students. ADV DE JAGER I just want to point out this difference from your statement this morning because this morning you told me "December '84 we are at a Conference of COSAS, Ngo's suspicion grew. 1984 Ngo uninvitedly attended the Congress in December. 1986 January, it was confirmed that that he's been an informer" MR MOHAPE I know, that's why I was saying I wanted to put those dates clear it's not that there is a confusion in that. It's just that I'm missing, you know, this years that's why I'm trying to put them into perspective. And I think the correct perspective is that one of 1984 the first conference that we attended, the second conference is the one of 1985 December that those are the correct dates. I don't think there's anything wrong with that, those are the correct dates yes. ADV DE JAGER Now after you exposed him as being an informer and you exposed him because you found the documents there, in December. MR MOHAPE No, we got ...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON They got the list. MR MOHAPE It was a list, that one. The first documents we got them after the conference of 1984. The one that I burnt, the diary of the Freedom Charter and got some notes that was written and then in 1985, it is when we got the list. CHAIRPERSON In 1985? MR MOHAPE '85 December, yes. Is when we got the list where he has written names of students because I'm saying '85, I'm saying it in this fashion, that December '85 it was the Conference of COSAS when we went to the conference in Durban and when we were there those documentation that I said was a folder of COSAS with an emblem of COSAS, that was later found at security branch in January '86 by a student who was picked up by the security branch and then '86 that January we were involved in a campaign to recruit new students for COSAS and in that '86 January, it is when then we found the list in his case. ADV DE JAGER Do you know where he was staying at that time? MR MOHAPE No at that time he was no longer staying at Pahameng,I did not know where he was staying. ADV DE JAGER Did you see him - but he was still around, you saw him? MR MOHAPE He was around, he was, Ja. ADV DE JAGER And in December 1985 when he attended the Congress uninvited in Durban was he still at the same school? MR MOHAPE Yes he was at school, he was a member of COSAS and it's when we took a deliberate decision to say we are excluding him from the delegation because we suspect he's an informer. ADV DE JAGER And after you've taken the gun from him, he never attended the school again? MR MOHAPE No, let me answer it, yes on the day after we disarmed him it was a Monday, he never came to school. No, no let me not mistake myself unnecessarily. On Monday when we exposed him to saying you have not attended meetings because you know ...[intervention] ADV DE JAGER Then he came on a Friday again with the gun. And after you've taken away the gun he never attended the school again? MR MOHAPE Ja. ADV DE JAGER But he was still around in Bloemfontein? MR MOHAPE Well I will not be certain if he was around Bloemfontein because at that time, it is the time when now I was wanted for these murder charges and then when I was arrested and subsequent to that going to court, he then appeared in court as a witness. ADV DE JAGER I see. Can you perhaps remember when you appeared in court? Not the exact date but round about say January or June or whatever? MR MOHAPE Honestly, I cannot recall that. MR MEMANI Mr Chairman with your leave may I put something which I forgot to ask from the witness? CHAIRPERSON Carry on. FURTHER CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MEMANI Now, Mr Mohape, you've told us that you marginalised Ngo and excluded him from the conference that was going to be held at Durban in 1985? MR MOHAPE Yes. MR MEMANI But he, however, appeared there? MR MOHAPE Yes. MR MEMANI Is it correct that at that conference he was brought by Erasmus? MR MOHAPE You know what was strange on that day when he arrived, it was at night and it was just after all sessions you know, had finished and when I went out of the hall I found Lulu Johnson - he was the president then, with him outside and when I was approaching there was a car that was just turning away from you know, at a distance, from where they were and there was a white person in that car and of course because I was at a distance, I could not ascertain who's this white person, but it was a white person. And what Ngo told us when we asked him how did he came to the conference, he said he took a train from Bloemfontein and when he got to the station he hitch hiked to Wentworth. Now there is a problem with that. If you look at the station, the Durban Station and you look where Wentworth is, it is not possible that a person can get a hitch hike from the centre of the town and then go to Wentworth because Wentworth it's a dominantly Indian, Indian dominated area. JUDGE NGOEPE Sorry, Mr Mohape, I think you're engaged in an argument to justify whatever conclusions you came to. I think the question was simply - and I don't know where Mr Memani got that from, that it was Erasmus. The question was simply, Mr Memani said "Is it correct he was brought by Erasmus?" and I think your answer is you don't know who brought him. MR MOHAPE Alright. MR MEMANI Those are my questions Mr Chairman. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MEMANI CHAIRPERSON Mr Stander? MR STANDER Thank you very much Mr Chairman. I received instructions to, on behalf of Mr Molefe at this stage to apply to recall him as witness and as a victim. I'm now going to try to convince the Committee that I'm of the opinion that if one looks at the Act as it has been promulgated that in my opinion, it is correct to allow him to offer his evidence before you. I want to refer you to the Promotion of National Reconciliation and Unity Act, that's the one that we work with and in particular the provisions of Section 19. With your permission - unfortunately I only have the Afrikaans version in front of me and in Sub Section 19.4 it's pertinently mentioned and with your permission I'm going to read it to you. If they do not deal with the application in accordance to Section 3 then (a) I'm not going to handle it because as far as I'm concerned I should possibly just read it. In a prescribed way the applicant or any victim or person involved and I want to emphasize that, someone who is involved, or has an interest in the application and in Sub-Section B the persons mentioned in paragraph A still have to be told their right to be at the hearing and secondly to give evidence. It is my argument Mr Chairman, that in the first place, Mr Molefe was involved in the evidence here, the testimony here, I don't think we have any doubt about that. He is also a victim, not just through mention by the applicants but also of his own version and therefore my submission to you is that on strength on of the provisions of Section 24.A and B he has the right to, yesterday as well, to come and give evidence before you and therefore I apply that he comes to give testimony. Mr Chairman you may possibly ask me and I don't want to prejudge this or preempt this, what is the intention of his giving evidence? The fact of the matter is this. If he does not give evidence he cannot be determined or described as a victim and he may not receive the benefits in terms of the Act and therefore my submission to you is that he has the right and secondly it would be right and fair. CHAIRPERSON Is he a victim in connection with acts committed by the two applicants? MR STANDER Yes indeed. As I said to you yesterday as it was pointed out yesterday in the pre-hearing conference where a variety of other people were assaulted, he was named specifically therefore ...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON I don't understand what you're saying. The pre-hearing conference, let's get that document if I can find it. Where is he mentioned? MR STANDER My Chairman, I'm sorry I don't have a copy of that. I'm going to ask my colleagues to bring the document to me. MR MEMANI Mr Chairman, I think that relates to the question which was asked yesterday as to whether he has, Mr Motsamai has made an application and I promised to revert to you this morning on the issue. Mr Chair, if I may refer you to page 148, I think it's bundle B Mr Chair, 148. CHAIRPERSON ...[inaudible] MR MEMANI It's bundle A Mr Chair, I beg your pardon. Paragraph 13 says that "I've also been involved in the assault torture of detained or arrested political activities." It's meant to be activists Mr Chair. "The said assaults and torture took place at the offices of the internal security unit at fifth floor, Fountain Street, Bloemfontein." This document was typed by, from the office of the Attorney and I then issued instructions that a list of people who were detained should be made out, which was then given to me which was typed in my chamber Mr Chair. And the list I think appears at page - I don't have the page reference at this stage Mr Chair, it's at page 140 Mr Chair. It starts at page 140 and this applicant is, this victim is referred to as number 21, Serame Molefe. CHAIRPERSON It does not appear in the application filed with us, does it? The fact that it's on some list prepared in your chambers doesn't relate to the application that has been filed, doesn't relate to the incident that he has referred to does it? MR MEMANI That list Mr Chair, formed part of the pretrial conference and went into this bundle as part of the ...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON But the pretrial conference cannot create new matters, there's a cut off date isn't there? MR MEMANI No, you seem not to understand Mr Chair. What was there was this application and you know, if you go by that Mr Chair, then you would have to say all the victims - he's not applied for amnesty in respect of all the victims because that doesn't give a list of names ...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON He doesn't have to give a list of names he's applied for amnesty in respect of incidents that took place at the 5th floor, Fountain Street Bloemfontein. MR MEMANI Yes, and these are the names of the people that ...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON Yes, now did this present person, was he assaulted at the fifth floor? MR STANDER Mr Chairman, it is true that the evidence up to that stage and when the objection was raised yesterday, we had not got to Fountain Street. I was on the way there to place the evidence before you when we were stopped and prevented from giving that evidence and if you allow me, I believe that the Act is broadly placed enough - when somebody, the minute he is involved as a victim, he has a right to be hear as a witness. CHAIRPERSON ...[inaudible] application being heard by us, is the victim somewhere else he doesn't have the right to go to every application and say: "I want to be heard". Tell us when and where the incident is, don't keep it a secret. MR STANDER I understand exactly what you mean Mr Chairman. What I'm trying to say to you is that when we were prevented from presenting that evidence yesterday, I was in the process of allowing the witness to give evidence on events at Fountain Street. CHAIRPERSON ...[inaudible] now, don't talk about yesterday. He said he wanted to stop yesterday, now tell me now, when it was, what incident you are going to lead evidence on. MR STANDER The date I unfortunately do not have, Mr Chairman, but what he is going to say to us was that he was assaulted and he will possibly be able to give us an idea, if we can just sort out that date I can do that, but he will be able to tell us when he was taken to Fountain Street, who attacked him there, assaulted him there amongst the people who are applying here. ADV DE JAGER The question as to whether he's a victim or not, he still has a right to be declared a victim by giving a statement to the Human Rights Violations Committee, it will be given to them, they will declare him as victim and they will send it through to the Rehabilitation Committee. If amnesty is not given according to what his deeds were because application was not made for such amnesty, then he doesn't lose any rights, he still has the right to approach the police and summons them for compensation. I don't want to prejudice this person but should an application now come in from somebody who has in fact been assaulted by Ngo in Kroonstad and Ngo has never applied for amnesty for that incident, then it is not relevant to Ngo's application. And surely that evidence will not be heard hear because amnesty has not been asked for that incident but in your case, should it have relevance to application of Ngo's then of course he has a right to do it but then you must convince us in which category, where in Ngo's or Motsamai's applications, under which heading, under which of the six deeds. MR MEMANI Mr Chairman, I have difficulty that what has to be strained this much in order to say that Mr Motsamai's application includes an application for Molefe because this pre-hearing conference was called at the behest of the Committee and a member of the Committee chaired this pre-hearing Committee ...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON It wasn't to increase the scope of applications it was to try to cut down. MR MEMANI Mr Chairman, because there were difficulties about exactly what the applications were about, it was then decided that there must be this predicatory hearing conference to determine these issues. It was then decided that what would be agreed at the pre-hearing conference would constitute the application. Now, these documents were submitted to the Committee as part of Motsamai's application. ADV DE JAGER And you turned up without a document there, was that recorded too? MR MEMANI I beg your pardon Mr Chair? ADV DE JAGER And you turned up without a document at the pretrial hearing? MR MEMANI I did not have documents at the hearing these were the documents that were prepared at the hearing. But this document was prepared by my secretary, the list of victims. CHAIRPERSON Will you look at the pretrial conference paragraph 5. It is agreed that the applicant filed an amnesty application during 1996 case no.4031. This application has been mislaid by the Amnesty Committee, therefore the applicant was invited to complete a duplicate which is now before the Committee signed the 5th June 1997 together with an annexure A comprising of 3 pages. It is agreed by consent that the form 1 application together with annexure A be regarded as the application. I see no reference to there to a list of victims. MR MEMANI You can't sit on many chairs. If you say that this list doesn't form part of the application because it's not annexed the original papers that were filed then everybody from Oupa Makubalo did not have Lucas Stander to sit here. That is the difficulty you are greeting. These people have been accepted all along because it was understood that they were included in this list of victims and that this list of victims formed part of the application by Motsamai. CHAIRPERSON It is because they are understood to fall under the category of persons who were assaulted at five Fountain Street, the 5th floor at Fountain Street. MR MEMANI That is correct. CHAIRPERSON Yes, he doesn't have to list all the names, he didn't list all the names, that is not necessary. We are simply saying this incident must be one of those. MR MEMANI That is what Mr Stander has been saying all along, that he's taking you to Fountains. CHAIRPERSON He hasn't told us anything about Fountains he was leading evidence about other things yesterday. We are still not told what incident at Fountain or how he was assaulted there. MR MEMANI Well Mr Chairman in the first place you first accept that there is an application by Motsamai regarding Molefe. Then your problem with Mr Stander is why is he leading other evidence that is not related to that. That should be the problem that you should be asking him to deal with not that I should be saying to you that there is an application and you're saying there is no application when this was done ...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON We have heard enough from you Mr Memani at the moment. Will you please Mr Stander tell us what incident you are talking about. MR STANDER Mr Chairman, unfortunately I do not have a copy of the document in front of me. If one of my colleagues could just please get the document to me, one of the ...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON What document? I'm talking about - what do you want to call this man to give evidence about? MR STANDER I want him to come and give evidence about assault on the 5th floor of Fountain Street in Bloemfontein on strength of the fact that clause, I'm looking over my left shoulder here as far as I can, I believe it's on page 148. CHAIRPERSON Who by? MR STANDER I'm referring you to bundle A. CHAIRPERSON Who was the assault by? Who committed the assault, Mr Stander? MR MEMANI It was Mr Motsamai who was present Mr Chairman, and there were also other members of the security force present. CHAIRPERSON ...[inaudible] Motsamai participated in an assault on him? MR STANDER That is true. CHAIRPERSON Therefore it falls into the category, that incident, but we don't need a long prior history of other assaults which are not relevant to the present applications ...[no sound] appear to be concerned. MR VISSER Mr Chairman, you've got the notes which I mentioned to you yesterday, I'm not going to repeat them. The point as I understood my - as I intended by objection to be based upon, was that there was an incident in Fountains Street in 1993 as we understood the evidence and we simply said that's not part of the papers before you. Now it's been related to 13 and I just want to make this one point Mr Chairman, there was nowhere in the pretrial, on the record or anywhere else in the world where we ever agreed that Clause 13 of Motsamai's application referred to anything else but the group of 19 people who were arrested in the Ladybrand area. There was never any agreement by us that that should mean so. If you're telling us that on a proper interpretation, you're going to interpret it that way, we will deal with in argument. But because we say can't possibly mean that otherwise Clause 13 would be tantamount to a general application for all assaults ...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON What you're saying is we assaulted people there regularly, I can't remember all the names and that's the evidence he's given, isn't it, that time and again assaults took place there and he wants amnesty. I know that your version is we've never assaulted anybody here and we never heard a scream and we never knew what was going on and that, that is as I read paragraph 13. It is that he was involved in these other assaults and tortures. [End of tape 2A, - no follow on sound]. ... "of detained and/or arrested political activities" MR VISSER CHAIRPERSON Yes, right. MR VISSER CHAIRPERSON Right. MR STANDER Thank you Mr Chairman, I would like to call Mr Molefe back to the witness stand. RECALL OF MR MOLEFE SERAME MOLEFE (s.u.o.) RE-EXAMINATION BY MR STANDER MR MOLEFE CHAIRPERSON Did you say what month? MR MOLEFE MR STANDER Where were you taken after you went to Parkway police station? MR MOLEFE Where was I taken after Parkway? Did you say Parkway? MR STANDER Parkweg. MR MOLEFE MR STANDER MR MOLEFE Fountain Street. MR STANDER On what Floor at Fountain Street? MR MOLEFE MR STANDER Who was present there in Fountain Street when you were taken there, whom you recognised? MR MOLEFE MR STANDER Were you assaulted in Fountain Street? MR MOLEFE Yes. MR STANDER Can you describe to us? MR MOLEFE MR STANDER MR STANDER Then after a few hours, I think around 10, I was fetched there and formally issued with a - that is now all the things they were alleging against me, accusing me of. On the, during the process Nicholson was amongst the people. They were changing, that is now, hands on me. This was would come, everyone would come to pose his questions. Nicholson was one of them and he also clapped me because at one point I can say exactly what made him to clap me. MR STANDER Just a minute please. Was Mr Motsamai present in the later assaults upon you? MR MOLEFE Yes, he was there to be an interpreter apparently but I was doing the interpretation for myself. He was sitting by and looking at me, you know, all the time. Even when this very Landman, on the 28th, on the morning of the 28th, there was again Landman who came to knock my head repeatedly, three times I think, against the wall. Kopi was there, Morakile was there. MR STANDER Did they take part in the assaults? Or let me put it differently, did Motsamai take any part in the assaults that took place in his presence? MR MOLEFE MR STANDER JUDGE NGOEPE Earlier on you mentioned ...[indistinct] and I thought you said something to that effect. Did you earlier on also say that physically Motsamai did not assault you except he assaulted you psychologically? Is my note correct? MR MOLEFE Yes. CHAIRPERSON You regarded him as a collaborator? MR MOLEFE Yes. CHAIRPERSON ...[inaudible] is on the first occasion. He was not one of those who assaulted you but he was physically present and you regarded him as having psychologically assaulted you? Is that the position? MR MOLEFE MR STANDER Mr Molefe, when the Chairman asked you the last question he referred you to the first occasion, the evening when you were arrested and taken to Fountain Street. And the question he asked you was whether at that stage you had been assaulted by Motsamai at Fountain Street or whether it was mere psychological assaults. MR MOLEFE MR STANDER I have no further questions for the witness, thank you. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR STANDER FURTHER CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR VISSER Thank you Mr Chairman. Thank you Mr Chairman. MR MOLEFE ...inaudible] feelings Sir. MR VISSER I have no further questions Mr Chairperson. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VISSER MR STANDER I have no re-examination. NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR STANDER MR MEMANI MR BRINK No thank you Mr Chairman. NO QUESTIONS BY MR BRINK MR MEMANI Mr Chairman, I forgot to ask something of the witness. Mr Molefe, do you know a person called Nichos? MR MOLEFE Very much so. MR MEMANI Nichos? MR MOLEFE Yes. MR MEMANI Now, who is Nichos? MR MOLEFE Nichos is the person who came to my rescue when nobody else could employ me because of the attitude carried by the employers at the time against people of a political background. MR MEMANI: Now, is it correct that as a result of the fact that Nichos employed you, Erasmus and other policemen used to visit his shop? MR MOLEFE Yes. MR MEMANI That there used to go there and behave ...[intervention] ADV DE JAGER Is there any application for assaults on Nichos? ...[inaudible] MR MEMANI ADV DE JAGER ...[inaudible] MR MEMANI "I, Sergeant Mamome and others bombed a house belonging to a businessman Nichos" Is it correct that they used to go there and behave in an intimidatory fashion against him? MR MOLEFE Correct. MR MEMANI Is it correct that they used to question the fact that he was using green and gold in the colours when he was decorating his shop? MR MOLEFE Correct. MR MEMANI Is it correct that they associated that with the African National Congress? MR MOLEFE MR MEMANI And, is it also correct that at his house he used decoration of - he used African art to decorate is house? MR MOLEFE MR MEMANI And the police interpreted that as something pointing out to his revolutionary tendency? MR MOLEFE MR MEMANI Did you become aware of the fact that he was courier of the ANC? MR MOLEFE MR MEMANI NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MEMANI MR VISSER CHAIRPERSON Why? MR VISSER CHAIRPERSON That he would go to his shop? MR VISSER CHAIRPERSON ...[intervention] MR VISSER Memani was putting this evidence to him and he was agreeing Mr Chairman, as we understand it anyway. ADV DE JAGER MR VISSER While that is correct, it is also quite clear that an atmosphere is built up here now. ADV DE JAGER MR VISSER CHAIRPERSON Yes. FURTHER CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR VISSER Well, it turned out simpler than I thought it might be. I put it to you that Erasmus has never been in the shop of Mr Nichos in his life. MR MOLEFE MR VISSER I have no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VISSER MR STANDER I have no re-examination. NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR STANDER MR MOLEFE Thank you. WITNESS EXCUSED MR STANDER At this stage I have no further victims as evidence I can offer. I do not want to say that there might not be any other victims for whom I will apply at a later stage to hear the evidence. MR STANDER As you please. MR MEMANI CHAIRPERSON MR MEMANI As the Chair pleases. CHAIRPERSON MR VISSER CHAIRPERSON MR VISSER On whatever basis ...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON MR VISSER ADV DE JAGER MR MEMANI CHAIRPERSON What page is it? MR MEMANI The witness has referred to the issue that, you know, he was present when he was being assaulted and ...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON MR MEMANI ADV DE JAGER Page 714. MR VISSER ADV DE JAGER On 714 you started to lead evidence ...[inaudible] number 26? MR VISSER Yes, in the middle of the page. ADV DE JAGER Yes. JUDGE NGOEPE MR MEMANI CHAIRPERSON MR MEMANI Yes, but he says that he was present when assaults took place on - he says that Motsamai was present when Molefe was assaulted and that is a matter that would require application for amnesty. CHAIRPERSON MR MEMANI ADV DE JAGER MR MEMANI There is that application Mr Chairman. ADV DE JAGER MR MEMANI Mr Chairman, the reason why Molefe was included is because of that fact. It has always been my instructions that Mr Motsamai did not physically participate in the assaults and I as lawyer interpreted the circumstances to be such, that he needs to apply for amnesty for assaulting this person because he failed to stop an assault on a person. CHAIRPERSON MR VISSER ZANELE PETRUS MBANJANI (sworn states) EXAMINATION BY MR VISSER Mr Mbanjani, are your full names Zanele: Z-a-n-e-l-e, Petrus, Mbanjani, M-b-a-n-j-a-n-i, is that correct? MR MBANJANI Yes. MR VISSER At the moment are you no longer associated with the police? MR MBANJANI ...[inaudible] MR VISSER Could that perhaps be repeated please? EXPERIENCING PROBLEMS WITH CHANNELS MR MBANJANI That is correct. MR VISSER You are a taxi owner in Bloemfontein, not so? MR MBANJANI That is correct. MR VISSER When were you associated with the South African Police, between which years? MR MBANJANI I started to be a policeman on the 7th October 1960. MR VISSER Were you ever associated with the security branch here in Bloemfontein? MR MBANJANI From 1966 I started to work with the security branch. MR VISSER And until which date did this go? MR MBANJANI Up to the 30th December 1982, 1992 sorry. MR VISSER MR MBANJANI From 1986 and 1992 I was working administrative work. [Transcriber experience problems with sound on channel, first words of speaker not always audible] CHAIRPERSON ...[inaudible] confirm his affidavit. MR VISSER May I ...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON And then you can lead him on any other points you wish to. MR VISSER The affidavit which you gave, did ...[intervention] MR BRINK Not audible. MR VISSER Thank you Mr Brink. Is that the affidavit which has been placed in front of you? MR MBANJANI That is my affidavit Sir. MR VISSER Is that your handwriting that appears on it? MR MBANJANI That is my handwriting Sir. MR VISSER And do you confirm the facts in that affidavit? MR MBANJANI I wrote the affidavit, then I agree with all the facts in there. MR VISSER Is it correct that as from 1986 to 1992 you were employed in an administrative capacity in Bloemfontein? MR MBANJANI That is correct, that is 1986 up to the time I went on pension in 1992. MR VISSER MR MBANJANI MR VISSER I want to ask you specifically about the period that you spent in Botshabelo. What were your duties there? MR MBANJANI My work there was mainly about enquiries which were in Botshabelo. MR VISSER Would it be correct, as has been suggested, that there was a sub-unit of the security branch of Bloemfontein placed at Botshabelo Police Station, would that be correct? MR MBANJANI That is correct. MR VISSER Who did it that sub-unit consist of? Who was the commander? MR MBANJANI When it started I was under Captain Coetzee. After some time Warrant Officer van den Berg took over, then I was under him. MR VISSER Who was the assistant commander? MR MBANJANI It was myself, I was helping van den Berg. MR VISSER ...[inaudible] members of that sub-unit that you worked with? MR MBANJANI We were together with Sergeant Kotze and Sergeant Padi - P-a-d-i. CHAIRPERSON ...[inaudible] MR VISSER Kotze Mr Chairman, K-o-t-z-e. MR MBANJANI MR VISSER Mr Mbanjani, with what rank did you leave the police? MR MBANJANI I was warrant officer. MR VISSER Insofar as it has been suggested in these applications by any witness or any applicant that you committed acts, illegal or unlawful acts, what do you say about that? While you were a policeman, what do you say about that? MR MBANJANI CHAIRPERSON By that, do I understand you to say that you did not commit any unlawful acts, that you were as pure as the driven snow? MR MBANJANI MR VISSER Thank you Mr Chairman. MR MBANJANI That is correct. I have reasons which I may put forward why I followed - I have a desire that I should put those reasons now. MR VISSER Mr Mbanjani, perhaps you can end with them. I have no further questions Mr Chairman. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VISSER. CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR DU PLESSIS Thank you Mr Chairman. You know Mr Ngo, is that right? MR MBANJANI MR DU PLESSIS All I actually want to know is, did you have any contact with Mr Ngo after he left Bloemfontein to go to Pretoria? Did you ever speak to him after he left Bloemfontein to go to Pretoria? MR MBANJANI MR DU PLESSIS Thank you Mr Chairman, no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR DU PLESSIS MR STANDER I have no questions, thank you Mr Chairman. NO QUESTIONS BY MR STANDER CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MEMANI MR MBANJANI That is correct. MR MEMANI And they told you what the allegations against you are? MR MBANJANI MR MEMANI Did the lawyers tell you what the allegations against you are? MR MBANJANI MR MEMANI ...[inaudible] against you? MR VISSER CHAIRPERSON Mr Visser, I would have thought you called clients because they had been implicated, to deal with the implications and I would certainly assume that you consulted with your clients before you called them and said: "This has been said, what have you got to say about it"? MR VISSER That is true Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON MR MEMANI CHAIRPERSON MR MBANJANI All these things which I read, they purported to have happened, I was not there. There was not a day where I returned to Botshabelo, I was permanently working in an office. CHAIRPERSON MR MBANJANI CHAIRPERSON So, are you saying the only thing you have been told you were involved in, is that you gave a van to Mr Ngo and that he then returned it? MR MBANJANI MR MEMANI Is it unlawful to lend a van to a person? MR MBANJANI You lent somebody - the state property is not your property. JUDGE NGOEPE CHAIRPERSON MR VISSER CHAIRPERSON MR VISSER Mr Chairman, with great respect, it is certainly not the duty of the witness or either of him or myself, after he has made himself available, to field any questions or allegations against him under oath, to take him through the whole record and to show ...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON MR VISSER ADV DE JAGER MR VISSER Must I reply ...[End of tape 2B - no follow-on sound] CHAIRPERSON MR VISSER May I re-open my evidence - leading my evidence in chief Mr Chairman? EXAMINATION BY MR VISSER MR MBANJANI MR VISSER MR MBANJANI ADV DE JAGER Mr Visser, could I kindly try to assist. MR MBANJANI ADV DE JAGER "While I saw Ngo at our offices on occasion and knew that he in his school years was an informant and afterwards a member of the SAP, I did not have any direct contact with him" Sub-paragraph 3: "I heard that Ngo during 1989, was charged with the murder of Mr Venter and was found guilty and was sentenced to prison" Now the crux of the matter: "His allegation that I was involved with the murder is strongly denied. I do not have any knowledge of a 4 X 4 vehicle, a Nissan and had no contact with Ngo as alleged" Is there anything you want to add to that? About the vehicle or the murder of Mr Venter? MR MBANJANI I know nothing about this murder. I was an administrative officer and I heard that Ngo killed a person. I even red it in the newspaper, Volksblad, that Ngo killed a white person. That the person who was killed was Mr Venter, I heard it here. I want to tell this Commission the truth, I had never had any contact with Ngo in his life. I know nothing that relates to Ngo. MR VISSER MR MBANJANI MR VISSER The suggestion by Mr Ngo is that Mr Mamome spoke to you there at Botshabelo police station and that he asked you whether you had made arrangements as requested with regard to this motor car. MR MBANJANI MR VISSER Mr Mbanjani, just listen to the question. Did Mr Mamome make arrangements for you about what to do with the stolen vehicle belonging to Mr Venter? MR MBANJANI No arrangements were made with Mr Mamome. MR VISSER Do you know anything about this car? MR MBANJANI I know nothing about this car. MR VISSER Mr Ngo furthermore alleges that you then lent them or rather transported them in a Nissan four wheel drive to Section S in Botshabelo, did that ever happen? MR MBANJANI No such thing happened. MR VISSER And that you introduced to them, that is Mr Mamome, Mr Ngo and Warrant Officer Ramouseau to two people. The one was Ben Ramorakome - R-a-m-o-r-a-k-o-m-e and Zacharia Khetsi - K-h-e-t-s-i. MR MBANJANI I know nothing of that incident, even the names that you are mentioning I do not know because I was not present at that place in Botshabelo. MR VISSER Ben Ramorakome and Zacharia Khetsi, do you know any such persons? MR MBANJANI I did not know them. MR VISSER Well, Mr Ngo said that you instructed them to go with the persons that I mentioned before, Mr Mamome, Mr Ramouseau and Mr Ngo, to Bloemfontein to go and help to go and collect the property of Askari members. Do you know anything about that? MR MBANJANI I know nothing about that incident. MR VISSER CHAIRPERSON I think you should continue just a little bit: "and that after that he took you and dropped you back at the police station". MR VISSER Yes, and then after all of that you - you heard the Chairman, do you know anything about that? Did that ever happen? MR MBANJANI I have never met them. This whole incident is new to me. MR VISSER "Members of the security police and the riot squad police who participated in the beating up of comrades arrested at Botshabelo were as follows" MR MBANJANI MR VISSER Did you take part in the administrative issues surrounding these people or in their interrogation, this group of 40 people? Did you have anything to do with them in other words? MR MBANJANI I would not remember the people you are talking about because we worked with many people. According to instructions, if your name appears you have to take an instruction but even though it is like that I do not remember assaulting anyone. MR VISSER Thank you Mr Chairman. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VISSER CHAIRPERSON I think we can go a bit further. The suggestion was not just that you assaulted but that you ordered them to strip so they could run round in a ring so that they could be beaten with plastic shambucks and that you then ordered them to do push-ups and frog-jumps. Did anything like that happen? MR MBANJANI CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Mr Visser, does that conclude your second ...[intervention] MR VISSER My second attempt, yes. CHAIRPERSON Mr Memani, do you have any questions? MR MEMANI As the Chair pleases. Mr Mbanjani, what did your duties entail? MR MBANJANI Do you want to know about my duties here in Bloemfontein or where should I start? MR MEMANI You told us that you were doing administrative work, was this at Fountains? MR MBANJANI Yes, at Fountain. My work at Fountain was to listen to the news and the telephones and to write letters. MR MEMANI Letters to whom? MR MBANJANI MR MEMANI So you were intercepting mail? MR MBANJANI MR MEMANI And you were listening to the news over the radio? MR MBANJANI ...[no English translation] MR MEMANI And you were listening - your particular interest in that news was news with a political content. MR MBANJANI Yes, political news. MR MEMANI And I assume that you then collate the relevant items and pass them on to the people who would have use for whatever you had gathered? MR MBANJANI Yes, we forwarded the news to a different section. MR MEMANI You were not responsible for leave forms? MR MBANJANI Not at all. MR MEMANI You were not responsible for keeping an inventory of furniture in the police station? MR MBANJANI Not at all. MR MEMANI And you were performing duties that were non-administrative in fact? MR MBANJANI MR MEMANI So then the first ...[indistinct] that emerges is that you were not doing administrative work. MR MBANJANI We did administrative work because we had a register book to sign when we start working and sign out at the end of the day. MR MEMANI And you worked at Bloemfontein from 1986 until 1992, is that correct? MR MBANJANI That is correct. MR MEMANI And you did not - you say that you did not become aware of Ngo? MR MBANJANI MR MEMANI MR MBANJANI Yes, I knew that such a person existed, he was Nelson Ngo. I explained that there were times in our offices where a person like Ngo came to give information. People would be very protective, they would not want us to talk to him so we never had a chance to talk to him because he would be protected. MR MEMANI MR MBANJANI MR MEMANI But surely if you told us that people used to be protective about their informers and they did not want other people to speak to him, when you saw him at Fountain, if you saw him as an informer, you would have seen him in the company of Erasmus? MR MBANJANI Can you repeat your question? MR MEMANI MR MBANJANI MR MEMANI MR MBANJANI That is correct. MR MEMANI MR MBANJANI MR MEMANI CHAIRPERSON MR MEMANI The unfortunate ...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON Are you suggesting that Erasmus went and fetched him every time and took him up in the lift with him and led him to his office? MR MEMANI The evidence has been that he used to see him in the office but he would not speak to him because people were protective about their informers. CHAIRPERSON MR MBANJANI I did not know the office he was going to. MR MEMANI I beg your pardon Mr Chair. MR MBANJANI MR MEMANI MR MBANJANI Repeat your question please. MR MEMANI Informers are not full-time employees? MR MBANJANI MR MEMANI But informers did not work permanently in the office. They did not stay permanently in the office, they came only to give reports and left. MR MBANJANI MR MEMANI And Ngo was a permanent feature in the office, he was always in the office? MR MBANJANI I would not say he was at all times at the office because when we reported work at half past seven, we would go back to our offices and they are out to go and work in the fields. MR MEMANI MR MBANJANI That is so. MR MEMANI And Ngo participated in the arrest of youths in Botshabelo? MR MBANJANI MR MEMANI And Ngo was actually registered as a policeman. MR MBANJANI I mentioned I did not know Ngo for a long time, that he was a policeman I just heard. I know the people I worked with. I did not know his background. MR MEMANI Why is it so that you did not know that Ngo was a policeman when he worked with you at the same police station? MR MBANJANI I told you that it was a very big office and I was in the same office but far from them. The field workers were on that side and I was on the other side, we did not mix. What they did was unknown to us. MR MEMANI How many policemen were there, security branch? MR MBANJANI I would not tell, they were many but I cannot give the number. MR MEMANI About 15? MR MBANJANI In all we would be between 60 and 70 but I do not know the exact figure. MR MEMANI But how many black security branch members were there at that stage who reported at Fountain every morning? MR MBANJANI We were not 30 in number, I think we were about 30 if not 30 something. MR MEMANI Now, did you not see Ngo at parades in the mornings? MR MBANJANI I do not remember seeing Ngo, I do not remember. MR MEMANI You see, according to documents furnished to us by our legal representatives, Ngo was registered at least as from March 1986, as a policeman. MR MBANJANI The questions that you are asking me do not need my attention, they need their handlers because as black during those days we did not know what was happening up there. Even among ourselves we did not open up for each other. I did not know his history, whether he was registered or not because I was never given such a report. MR MEMANI MR MBANJANI ADV DE JAGER Do you know whether he was transferred to another station at any stage or whether he left Bloemfontein at any stage? MR MBANJANI I did not know his movements. We were not told such things. I only concentrated on my duty. The transfers and all those things were done by officers up there where we did not have part. CHAIRPERSON ...[inaudible] INTERPRETER MR MEMANI CHAIRPERSON ...[inaudible] INTERPRETER The interpreter cannot hear the speaker. CHAIRPERSON COMMITTEE ADJOURNS ON RESUMPTION MR MBANJANI (s.u.o) CHAIRPERSON: Right Mr Memani? MR MEMANI Now Mr Mbanjani, for how long did you see Ngo at Fountain? MR MBANJANI I do not remember. MR MEMANI Now, for how long did you know him as an informer? MR MBANJANI ...[no English translation] JUDGE NGOEPE Mr Brink? MR MBANJANI JUDGE NGOEPE MR MBANJANI I am unable to answer because he never spent a lot of time where I saw him. MR MEMANI MR MBANJANI According to my knowledge - can I please get another headset, this is giving me troubles? JUDGE NGOEPE Do not cover the little glass because you stop the frequency. MR MBANJANI We received money at Fountain for the informers. MR MEMANI And that was recorded in a file? MR MBANJANI MR MEMANI And these payments through the administration office? MR MBANJANI MR MEMANI MR MBANJANI JUDGE NGOEPE MR MEMANI Now Mr Mbanjani, do you recall the day when you arrested Ngo at O.K. in Bloemfontein? MR MBANJANI I have never arrested Ngo. MR MEMANI Do you recall the day when you took him to Fountain and there called Erasmus and showed him Ngo? MR MBANJANI I do not remember. MR MEMANI MR MBANJANI That is not so at all. MR MEMANI Now there was another youngster who used to be with Ngo who was Oliphant whom you were looking for as well, do you remember that? MR MBANJANI I do not remember. MR MEMANI My instruction are that you were looking for Oliphant and Ngo and you picked Ngo up at O.K. and on that day he was beaten up by yourself and Erasmus and he was then recruited as an informer. MR MBANJANI MR MEMANI It is not the proposition that you worked under Erasmus, what is being put to you is that you introduced Ngo to Erasmus. MR MBANJANI That is not so Chairperson. MR MEMANI MR MBANJANI MR MEMANI And Horn approved the appointment of Ngo as an informer in the office. MR MBANJANI MR MEMANI And besides collating evidence and passing it on to the various people who would have use for it, you made visits to houses of people who had skipped the country to join MK and APLA. MR MBANJANI No, when I started working at the office in 1986 that job stopped. MR MEMANI MR MBANJANI Yes, we did make visits up to 1985 and in 1986 when I started working in the office I stopped those visits. MR MEMANI Now, did you stop later, very late in 1986? MR MBANJANI I stopped when I started working in the office, I was now working in the office and I stopped visiting them. There was a division visiting them. MR MEMANI I am told that you used to go to these houses with Ngo, Ngo would be pointing these houses out to you. MR MBANJANI MR MEMANI I beg your pardon Mr Chair. Now I am told again that your house was bombed by MK with a hand grenade. MR MBANJANI That is correct, it was in 1980 but I would not say it was done by the MK. MR MEMANI And the reason was that you were following them up. MR MBANJANI MR MEMANI Now, your office opened to Violent Street. MR MBANJANI MR MEMANI Your office door. MR MBANJANI When I opened the door I was going down and then turned to Violent Street. MR MEMANI My instructions are that your door was in fact opening onto Violent Street. MR MBANJANI That is not true. You would walk a distance up to that camera man, then there was a main door, then you would turn and then that was Violent Street. CHAIRPERSON Can you estimate that distance? MR MEMANI MR MBANJANI CHAIRPERSON More than 8, 10. MR VISSER I would agree with 10 Mr Chairman. MR MEMANI Now, you told us that you were later transferred to Botshabelo. MR MBANJANI I said I was transferred from Botshabelo to Bloemfontein, it was a transfer from Botshabelo to Bloemfontein. MR MEMANI When was that? MR MBANJANI MR MEMANI When were you second in command, was it Botshabelo or Batu police station? MR MBANJANI Botshabelo. MR MEMANI In which year were you second in command there? MR MBANJANI I worked in Botshabelo until the end of 1985 and a few years back. MR MEMANI MR MBANJANI That is not so Mr Chairman. MR MEMANI The reason therefore was that you are the person who was based in Botshabelo and they were here in town. MR MBANJANI Sir, we were supposed to know our different duties and it was my duty to identify those houses. CHAIRPERSON MR MBANJANI I say to do a compete job was included, even identifying the person and the house. The decisions to raid the houses were taken by my seniors. MR MEMANI And during that raid you complied to with your duty to identify people who were sought to be arrested? MR MBANJANI When a raid was conducted the people are already identified, we just go in a group and we will be divided, this group will go to a certain section and this group will go to that other section. MR MEMANI Do you have any difficulty with conceding that you are the person who actually identified the house and the people involved because you were the person who was stationed locally? MR MBANJANI I did not point them out, I identified them. We go out as a group and we do not go the whole group to one place. I did - I identified in the group where I was working. MR MEMANI MR MBANJANI It depended who the case was handed over to. I told you we were four people working there but it was part of my duty. If you were needed for interrogation I had to go and fetch you. MR MEMANI And Ngo was present during that raid? MR MBANJANI MR MEMANI MR MBANJANI I did not know there is a person who can answer that question, you used an informer the way you liked. Some of the informers came to the office but not often. MR MEMANI MR MBANJANI ADV DE JAGER Mr Memani, could you assist me? He left Botshabelo at the end of 1985 so this raid - am I correct in saying, was before the end of 1985? MR MEMANI My instructions are that it was before. ADV DE JAGER And we heard evidence that in 1985 Ngo in December attended a conference in Durban so he was still at school, that was before his exposure. MR MEMANI ADV DE JAGER And I think that it should be cleared up some time because this is causing confusion. MR MEMANI I think at the ...[intervention] ADV DE JAGER He was still at school and not yet exposed as an informer. MR MEMANI ADV DE JAGER When did your client do matric? MR MEMANI MR VISSER Mr Chairman, Ngo, according to the evidence became a police informer in 1983. He was stabbed in 1984. His trial was completed by 1985. In 1985 he was in Ladybrand. He completed his matric at the end of 1985. He joined the police on the 11th of March 1986 and he left for the police college on the 4th of July 1986. Those are the relevant dates. CHAIRPERSON Start again please. MR VISSER CHAIRPERSON No, no. MR VISSER He completed his matric at the end of 1985. He joined the police, he was attested as they put it, on the 11th of March 1986 and he entered the Police College at Hammanskraal on the 4th of July 1986. He passed out at the end of 1986, if we have to go on Mr Chairman. ADV DE JAGER So he entered the police college on the 4th of July. MR VISSER CHAIRPERSON He was? MR VISSER CHAIRPERSON MR VISSER CHAIRPERSON Yes. MR VISSER But those are the ones that we have presented evidence to you that we could fairly accurately determine, I can take it no higher than that. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. MR MEMANI Now, Mr Mbanjani we were dealing with the raid in Botshabelo and I had put it to you that Ngo was present during the raid. MR MBANJANI I did not see him there. MR MEMANI MR MBANJANI I do not remember. MR MEMANI And at the time when it took place you were the person who was in charge of Botshabelo. MR MBANJANI I told that the person in charge was Warrant Officer van den Berg, I was working under him. When he was not there, it was then that I would take charge. I have to explain, it was not allowed that a black person be in charge of police stations. I was second-in-charge so that I could rescue when he was not present. MR MEMANI Yes, the statement as I put it was not entirely correct. You were the person however, who was dominant and could identify people and their houses. MR MBANJANI CHAIRPERSON MR MBANJANI There were raids, I do not remember very well, but there were raids. CHAIRPERSON MR MBANJANI MR MEMANI So it could have happened in 1986? MR MBANJANI In 1986 I was not there, I was in Bloemfontein. If it happened in that year I was not there. MR MEMANI Now, Mr Mbanjani, how could it have happened that the general public came to know that Ngo was working with the police when you who was supposed to his college, never even knew him or knew what he was doing at the police station? MR MBANJANI MR MEMANI Now, whist you worked at Fountain people were tortured by the police at the police station. MR MBANJANI CHAIRPERSON Perhaps you can help me here and tell me what was Fountain, was it a police station that the public had access to or was it the offices of the security police? MR MBANJANI It was the head office of the security branch. CHAIRPERSON And how many floors of the building did they take? Did they have the whole building? MR MBANJANI There are five floors in that building but the security branch was occupying the 4th and the 5th floor. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Sorry, one more question. How did you get in? Could the members of the public just walk up the stairs or catch a lift to the 4th and 5th floor and walk into offices? MR MBANJANI You would be in a position to catch a lift to go to the 4th floor but you would not be in a position to get into the offices because there was a door and you had to ring the bell. CHAIRPERSON And was a record kept of people who came and went, as happens in most police stations? MR MBANJANI The people who came to the building were the people who came for interrogations or when the people came they came to look for one of the people working around, we did not have records. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. ADV DE JAGER So if I wanted to see one of the security police, would I take the lift to the fourth floor and then if there was a closed door and somebody should admit me, allow me entrance? MR MBANJANI That is correct. After you get out of the lift you ring the bell, then you tell us the person you want to meet and then we call him for you. ADV DE JAGER Were you in charge? You say: "Then you tell us who you want to see and we call him", were you in charge of the door, the bell and the entrance of people? MR MBANJANI Anyone who happens to hear the bell ringing would open. CHAIRPERSON Who occupied the other floors? MR MBANJANI It was the offices of the District Surgeon - excuse me, the District Commandant and his staff. MR MEMANI My instructions are that members of the public were not entitled, were not allowed to enter the offices, including relatives of personnel. MR MBANJANI MR MEMANI Now, Ngo would not have known that during the raid at Botshabelo you are the person who identified people and houses if he did not work with you during the raid. MR MBANJANI I want to emphasise this, this is lies, I did not identify houses. When we worked at night we grouped ourselves. You do not point at the house, we had addresses. I would agree with him when he said we were identifying the people. We knew the houses we were supposed to go to because there were numbers, these people would be given lists. I was not pointing out houses. MR MEMANI But he would have known that you were identifying people if he was not working with you. MR MBANJANI I have never worked with Ngo. I have told many a times that I have never worked with Ngo. MR MEMANI Ngo would also not have known that at the police station it was again you who identified people for interrogation. MR MBANJANI It is easy to know because he was among the other security members, the members who knew what was happening, they might have talked and the news fell into his ears. MR MEMANI Now Mr Mbanjani, Ngo has told us that during the incident involving Mr Venter, you were involved. MR MBANJANI I have given an answer to that, I said from 1986 I was working in the offices in Bloemfontein. Where Ngo stayed I do not know, where Mr Venter stayed I do not know, I know nothing about Mr Venter. MR MEMANI We are told that Mr Venter was an informer for the security branch. MR MBANJANI I do not know. My seniors know that, I do not know. MR MEMANI Now, Ngo was at school at Lerego during 1984, do you know that? MR MBANJANI I know nothing about Ngo because in 1984 I used to wake up early, go to Botshabelo where I was working. What took place in Bloemfontein I do not know. MR MEMANI Did you not come to hear about him being injured? MR MBANJANI I heard that there was an informer who was stabbed but I did not know him. I knew nothing of him and I did not want to get more details because I had more problems at my work. MR MEMANI MR MBANJANI MR MEMANI MR MBANJANI MR MEMANI MR MBANJANI I want to explain this. I told you that we worked in departments, I did not know what the other department was doing. I did not know this Venter and I did not know anything about Tswametsi department. ADV DE JAGER MR MEMANI MR MBANJANI I do not know. MR MEMANI MR MBANJANI I do not know. MR MEMANI Now, did you hear at all that members of the security branch had taken the informer to live with some white person somewhere? MR MBANJANI I never heard that. MR MEMANI MR MBANJANI MR MEMANI Now, ...[intervention] ADV DE JAGER ...[inaudible] INTERPRETER ADV DE JAGER Are you talking about the day of the murder, the day when at first he went there, when did they take him? MR MEMANI CHAIRPERSON MR MEMANI JUDGE NGOEPE Mr Mbanjani, as and when you heard - apparently from your colleagues, that this informer had been stabbed and so on, was it not also mentioned that appropriate steps were taken to accommodate him at a safer place? MR MBANJANI Not at all. We were told that the informer was stabbed but it was never told further what happened thereafter. ADV DE JAGER At the stage when you heard he was stabbed, where were you stationed? MR MBANJANI ...[no English translation] ADV DE JAGER MR MBANJANI At that time I was still working in Botshabelo. Chairperson, can I ask something? Chairperson, can I please ask something? CHAIRPERSON ...[inaudible] MR MBANJANI CHAIRPERSON MR MEMANI Mr Chair, do you require the notes now or can we look for the passage overnight? CHAIRPERSON MR MEMANI Okay Mr Chairman. MR VISSER ADV DE JAGER CHAIRPERSON MR VISSER CHAIRPERSON MR MEMANI Mr Mbanjani, Mr Ngo has testified that when Mr Venter was killed they borrowed a Mazda 4 X 4 from you. MR MBANJANI That is not so. Can you please complete the question, where was I at that time? MR MEMANI I think the evidence was that - we took it, that same made car a 4 X 4, drove to S Section in Botshabelo to a certain house. CHAIRPERSON Did you own a 4 X 4, a Mazda 4 X4? MR MBANJANI I have never had a 4 X 4 car while I was in the services of the SAP. I was working in Bloemfontein, I was not in Botshabelo on the date he is referring to. MR MEMANI Now, Mr Mbanjani, I did not hear your answer to the question that was put now about whether you owned a 4 X 4 before. MR MBANJANI I said I have never had a 4 X 4. MR MEMANI And were you in any way - have you ever driven a 4 X 4 that belonged to the State? MR MBANJANI MR MEMANI MR MBANJANI Which year are you referring to Sir, because I said in 1986 I was in Bloemfontein and when I was in Bloemfontein I did not have a car because I was working administration and I do not know a 4 X 4. MR MEMANI Now, Mr Mbanjani, do you know the 4 X 4 that was usually driven by Sergeant Coetzee? MR MBANJANI The car that we had was not a 4 X 4, it was an Izuzu lorry and it belonged to Adjudant Botha. It is the lorry I remember, I don not remember a 4 X4. MR MEMANI MR MBANJANI I do not know a 4 X 4 that was driven by Coetzee. MR MEMANI Now my instructions are that this 4 X 4 was usually driven by Sergeant Coetzee. CHAIRPERSON Where was he stationed? MR MEMANI Now, do you know Sergeant Coetzee who was stationed at Botshabelo? MR MBANJANI I do not know him. MR VISSER CHAIRPERSON Kotze? MR VISSER CHAIRPERSON Did you know a Sergeant Kotze? MR MBANJANI I knew Kotze, I was working with him. CHAIRPERSON Where? MR MBANJANI In Botshabelo. CHAIRPERSON And did he stay there after you came to Bloemfontein? MR MBANJANI Yes, he stayed behind. MR MEMANI Do you remember the 4 X 4 that he used to drive? MR MBANJANI Seeing that I do not know cars, I - but I still remember he was driving an Izuzu but I do not remember well but the car that I remember is an Izuzu. MR MEMANI I must say Mr Mbanjani, that you are being evasive. MR VISSER MR MEMANI I put it to you that you are being evasive. MR MBANJANI I will tell you what I know, and these things took place a long time ago. It is difficult to recall them all. I am trying my best to certify. MR MEMANI And you are being deliberately untruthful. MR MBANJANI I am telling you what I know. MR MEMANI ADV DE JAGER "We took a Datsun made car, a 4 X 4" MR MEMANI Now, do you remember the Datsun 4 X 4 that was driven by Sergeant Kotze? MR MBANJANI I do not remember it. MR MEMANI Now, do you want us seriously to believe you when you say that you do not know cars? MR MBANJANI MR MEMANI Did you ever have any difference with Ngo? MR MBANJANI I think before we went for break I told that I did not know Ngo, he was a distance from me. MR MEMANI Should I accept it that there was not ill-blood, no bad blood between yourself and Mr Ngo? There were no ill feelings, you had no differences at all? MR MBANJANI That is correct. MR MEMANI And you see, you ...[End of Tape 3, side B - no follow-on sound] Ngo must be telling the truth then when he says that they lent a truck, a 4 X 4 to them. MR MBANJANI That is lies Sir. MR MEMANI He had no reason to falsely implicate you in this. MR MBANJANI I am shocked really, and this really has shocked me to be included in an issue that is far from me. MR MEMANI You see this is detail which is unlikely to be fabricated if you take into account that Ngo said that he received his instructions from Shaw at Fountain. MR MBANJANI MR MEMANI INTERPRETER Can you repeat your question Sir, the interpreter did not get the last part. MR MEMANI You would not fall naturally into the scheme of things if Ngo wanted falsely to implicate people. MR MBANJANI I would not know if he falsely blamed people. MR MEMANI Secondly, if Ngo were malicious he would have implicated you in a more serious fashion than just ...[intervention] MR BRINK CHAIRPERSON MR MEMANI Now Mr Chair, I will get instructions to clarify the issue. CHAIRPERSON MR MEMANI CHAIRPERSON MR MEMANI CHAIRPERSON MR MEMANI CHAIRPERSON MR MEMANI CHAIRPERSON MR MEMANI As the Chair pleases. Now, Mr Chair, may I take instructions? MR MBANJANI MR MEMANI CHAIRPERSON MR MEMANI Mr Chairman, if - it seems to me - my instructions are that if a particular operation had to be carried out and it would have been necessary for him to be at Botshabelo, he would have been told to go to Botshabelo. CHAIRPERSON MR MEMANI CHAIRPERSON Carry on. MR MEMANI Now, what is your comment? If I may remind you, what I put to you was, I am told that you could have been told to go to Botshabelo if it had been deemed necessary that you should be at Botshabelo on that day. MR MBANJANI That is not true. ADV DE JAGER Were you in fact told, in the beginning of February 1989, to go to Botshabelo to arrange for a 4 X 4 Datsun vehicle to be given to Mr Ngo? MR MBANJANI MR MEMANI NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MEMANI CHAIRPERSON Any re-examination? MR VISSER No re-examination. NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR VISSER CHAIRPERSON Sorry, Mr Brink? MR BRINK Thank you Mr Chairman. Mr Mbanjani, during the course of your evidence you were asked about the door at the entrance to your office which led onto a passage which again led to a passage known as Violent Street, do you remember that? MR MBANJANI I remember that evidence. MR BRINK When you arrived at Botshabelo you were placed in one office, is that correct? I beg your pardon, when you arrived at Bloemfontein, at Fountain. MR MBANJANI MR BRINK And when you arrived at Fountain, was there a sign on the wall of this passage known as Violent Street showing that it was called Violent Street, a sign similar to that above the main chair on the ...[indistinct] to your right, on a printed wooden board or something of that sort? MR MBANJANI I can see that printing. Yes, there was a sign there. MR BRINK Similar to that one which I have pointed out to you in this hall? MR MBANJANI It was this size and this big. MR BRINK MR MBANJANI It was something like a sticker, it was stuck to the wall. MR BRINK And was it made of wood? MR MBANJANI No, just like ordinary stickers, plastic stickers. MR BRINK And you say it was there when you arrived at Fountain? MR MBANJANI It was there when I arrived. MR BRINK Was it there when you left? MR MBANJANI When I left for? MR BRINK Well, when you left the force in 1992? MR MBANJANI CHAIRPERSON When did you leave Fountain? MR MBANJANI MR BRINK Do you know why this passage was called Violent Street? MR MBANJANI I would not know because I only saw that thing put there, written Violent Street, now we did not spend a lot of time there. MR BRINK MR MBANJANI I understand. MR BRINK Were you not curious to find out why this passage was called Violent Street in security branch headquarters? MR MBANJANI When we have to tell the truth I did not follow that up because I had a lot of work to do. I saw it just pasted there and I thought it was one of the stickers, they might have found it somewhere. There were ANC stickers, COSAS. They used to put stickers on. MR BRINK Thank you. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR BRINK MR MEMANI CHAIRPERSON Go ahead. FURTHER CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MEMANI Yes. Now, you told us that your office was about 10 metres from Violent Street. MR MBANJANI MR MEMANI Now, did you - are you aware that people were tortured along Violent Street? MR MBANJANI I never saw a person being tortured in Violent Street. I want to clarify this. If there was anything there, we were against torturing. If ever tortures were conducted it was in our absence because we signed that nobody will be assaulted. MR MEMANI Did you ever see members of the security branch instructing people to do frog jumps along Violent Street? MR MBANJANI MR MEMANI There was in April 1986 a big catch when about 25 people who were attempting to skip the country were arrested, about 20 people were arrested trying to skip the border. Did you hear about that? MR MBANJANI I do not have knowledge of that issue. I do not have knowledge because there were people who were working on those cases. MR MEMANI MR MBANJANI MR MEMANI People were screaming there we are told by witness after witness. MR MBANJANI MR MEMANI As the Chair please, those are my questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MEMANI MR STANDER Could I please ask a few questions, there are a few aspects which I feel could be important. Mr Mbanjani, what was your objective when you got a person in to interrogate this person while you were stationed at Fountain Street? MR MBANJANI When a person came in, it was for the reason of being interrogated, of being asked questions. MR STANDER What method did you follow by which to interrogate these people? MR MBANJANI MR STANDER When you brought in a political activist, are you now telling us that you would give such a person a chair and tea to drink? Is that what you are telling us? MR MBANJANI The person who taught me the work taught me that way. I can quote you many people who know that around Bloemfontein. MR STANDER MR MBANJANI MR STANDER If you had information that this person could give the reply to such a question and he did not want to give it to you, what would you do then? MR MBANJANI I detain that kind of a person. I signed that I will not assault a person. MR STANDER And tell me, if he was detained, would he then answer your question at a later stage? MR MBANJANI When this person is detained and does not provide answers, we do not make decisions, we have officers above us and they would take the decisions, we were not supposed to even assault this person. MR STANDER Were the persons handcuffed at all, the persons that you were interrogating on any occasion? MR MBANJANI MR STANDER Did you at any stage handcuff a person in your office while he was being interrogated? MR MBANJANI MR STANDER Did you at any stage enter an office where a person was being - interrogating someone else in the security branch while you were working there? MR MBANJANI Many a times. MR STANDER Did you at any stage see somebody who was handcuffed, sitting on a chair while he was being interrogated? MR MBANJANI It happened or that can happen. MR STANDER Was it necessary for persons to be handcuffed while they were being interrogated in an office? MR MBANJANI MR STANDER Do you really want this Committee to believe that a person would jump out of the window from the 5th or 4th floor and that is the reason for him being handcuffed? Is that what you are telling us? CHAIRPERSON How many incidents of that have been reported? MR MBANJANI These things happened Sir. CHAIRPERSON Including some recently? MR MBANJANI Those things happened to people who escaped through windows. MR STANDER People who jumped out of the 4th of the 5th floor here in Bloemfontein? MR MBANJANI That is what the Chairman asked you. CHAIRPERSON I was asking you Mr Stander, how many. You were saying: "You expect us to believe that". Have you not read in the past of such instances? Have the police not been criticised for not taking steps to avoid them? MR STANDER ADV DE JAGER In Bloemfontein they prevented it by handcuffing them. MR STANDER Can I just try to find that out from the witness? JUDGE NGOEPE Yes, please. MR MBANJANI answer. CHAIRPERSON MR STANDER I am of the opinion that this is due to my oversight. Can I continue along this way? CHAIRPERSON MR STANDER It deals with the credibility, not only of this witness but also of those to come. CHAIRPERSON He has said he never saw anyone being assaulted, he never heard anything. MR STANDER I heard that but the problem that I have is that one after the other they have testified as to how they were assaulted there and surely there should have someone who saw or heard, and it is along this way that I want to follow. CHAIRPERSON But you have the evidence of several witnesses on a point, this witness says something different. MR STANDER I can I put this one more question to this witness please? Did you ever see any blood against the walls of Violent Street? MR MBANJANI I never saw blood. MR STANDER I have no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR STANDER CHAIRPERSON What is this - is this building still there? MR MBANJANI CHAIRPERSON MR MBANJANI into the lift and then you go up. CHAIRPERSON Yes, but to get to your office on the 5th floor, do you go along Violent Street or would go along some other passage? MR MBANJANI You take a lift up to the 5th floor, you ring the bell, then you see Violent, you see it down there. CHAIRPERSON Do you go along Violent Street and then turn into another passage to get to your office? MR MBANJANI CHAIRPERSON MR MBANJANI I went straight to my office. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. MR VISSER No re-examination Mr Chairman. NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR VISSER JUDGE NGOEPE Was there a kitchen on the 5th floor? MR MBANJANI Yes, there was a kitchen where we would drink tea. JUDGE NGOEPE How far was your office from the kitchen? MR MBANJANI I would walk up to that camera man and turn, go down until where this building ends up, it is a distance. JUDGE NGOEPE MR MBANJANI JUDGE NGOEPE Do you recall that on an occasion a number of students belonging to that school were detained during a combined operation with yourselves in Botshabelo, assisted by members of the security branch in Bloemfontein? MR MBANJANI We arrested many students in different schools, maybe Kowhelo is one of them. JUDGE NGOEPE Try to remember whether you also arrested students form Kowhelo High School. MR MBANJANI Which year are you referring to Sir? JUDGE NGOEPE MR MBANJANI I do not remember but I know we arrested many students but I do not remember about Kowhelo. JUDGE NGOEPE MR MBANJANI Maybe I was not there. Maybe those things happened when I was already here, I do not remember. JUDGE NGOEPE No, according to the statement I have it was while you were in fact at Botshabelo. MR MBANJANI I said I remember we arrested many students. When you arrive there are people special who would work with them, maybe I was not in that group. JUDGE NGOEPE You see, according to this statement it was these students from this particular school who were assaulted, largely also as a result of your instructions. MR MBANJANI I did not give instructions, I worked under people and there have never been people assaulted in my presence. JUDGE NGOEPE I would have thought that if you are involved in an operation in which students of a particular school, a school that you know or you knew, you would remember. MR MBANJANI Yes, I would remember because I know we arrested many students in schools but it is difficult to know the number because after arresting them, some would be put there, some there and the investigator of the case would bring them together the following day and it would be difficult to know the number. JUDGE NGOEPE Sergeant Smith, was there a Sergeant Smith based at Botshabelo with you? MR MBANJANI I do not know him. I worked with Kotze, van den Berg and Paddy, we were four. I do not know after I left. JUDGE NGOEPE Constable Lesale? MR MBANJANI I have never worked with him in Botshabelo. JUDGE NGOEPE But you knew him? MR MBANJANI A lot. JUDGE NGOEPE Was he a member of the security branch? MR MBANJANI That is correct Sir. JUDGE NGOEPE Thank you. CHAIRPERSON How many were you in the security branch in Botshabelo when you were there? MR MBANJANI We were four. Can you repeat your question Sir? CHAIRPERSON MR MBANJANI Sir, can you repeat your question. CHAIRPERSON I asked you how many you were in the security branch in Botshabelo because I thought you had already said four. MR MBANJANI Yes, we were four. CHAIRPERSON So you were a very small unit? MR MBANJANI It was a newly opened area. CHAIRPERSON MR MBANJANI That is correct. CHAIRPERSON MR VISSER CHAIRPERSON WITNESS EXCUSED MR VISSER CHAIRPERSON Very well. SEGOPOLO PETRUS KOPI (sworn states) MR VISSER Mr Kopi, were you a policeman and are you still a policeman? MR KOPI MR VISSER MR KOPI I arrived at 1984 at the security branch. MR VISSER You arrived you say? Arrived in 1984? MR KOPI I was transferred from Park Road police station to the security branch in 1984. MR VISSER And until what stage did you work for the security branch? What date? MR KOPI MR VISSER MR KOPI Detective Sergeant. MR VISSER CHAIRPERSON Are you still doing the introduction? Carry on. MR VISSER What precisely was your job during 1985 and 1986? What were you involved in? CHAIRPERSON COMMITTEE ADJOURNS ON RESUMPTION SEGOPOLO PETRUS KOPI (s.u.o.) MR VISSER Just before the adjournment you were asked what precisely your function was in the security branch during the years, approximately 1984 to 1986. MR KOPI My work was to investigate. MR VISSER MR KOPI I started to be a detective in 1987 but before then I was just an ordinary policeman in the security branch. MR VISSER Do you know Mr Ngo? MR KOPI Yes, I do. MR VISSER Can you tell us what you know of him and what your relationship was with him, your working relationship was with him? MR KOPI I knew Mr Ngo at the security branch when he was recruited. We used to meet at the passage because I was working on the investigation, he was working on the other section. MR VISSER And did you work with him at all? MR KOPI No, Sir. MR VISSER We know that Mr Ngo became a policeman on the 11th of March 1986. After that date, did you work with him? Did you execute any operations with him? MR KOPI No, there was no operation which I worked with him or I worked with him in a particular section. MR VISSER And Mr Motsamai, do you know him? MR KOPI I know him very well. MR VISSER Can you tell us anything about your working relationship in the security branch, with Mr Motsamai? MR KOPI When I arrived in 1984, Mr Motsamai was working in the security branch, then I worked in the investigation section, then I learnt that he worked with the youth section under black section. MR VISSER Do you remember an incident which took place when a group of 19 comrades were arrested by the South African Defence Force in the Ladybrand area and became transferred to Bloemfontein? MR KOPI I found those people in the office, then I learnt later that they were arrested in Ladybrand whilst they were trying to skip the country. MR VISSER Mr Kopi, did you have anything to do with these people? MR KOPI Yes, they were those whom I talked with them. MR VISSER MR KOPI Yes, there were some I interrogated. I think there were plus one or two. MR VISSER And when you interrogate a person, how many members of the security branch do you normally have in the office during the interrogation? MR KOPI When we interrogate a person, there will be the arrestee and myself. I would work as an interpreter and then a white officer who would take notes of the things which are said by the arrestee. It may happen that somebody would just come in and sit there without doing anything. MR VISSER I saw you frowning Mr Chairman, I think you frowned at the word: "white", "a white officer". CHAIRPERSON MR VISSER The arrestee? CHAIRPERSON Yes. He might not necessarily have been arrested. MR VISSER Oh I see, yes, yes. Well the detained person. MR KOPI Yes. MR VISSER MR KOPI There was one lady whom I interrogated, then a certain person, then from there I had somewhat to do, then from there I left and continued with my work. MR VISSER Can you today, recall any of the names of the people that you interrogated at the time? MR KOPI It is difficult to remember. MR VISSER When the victims gave evidence, were you able to recall or identify any of those people as a person whom you identified - whom you interrogated? MR KOPI Many people came whom I interrogated. Even before this, the victims came. CHAIRPERSON You were being asked about the victims who have been giving evidence before us, the people, did you recognise any of them as somebody you had interrogated on this occasion? MR KOPI CHAIRPERSON MR KOPI No, no-one. MR VISSER It has been suggested that you were one of the persons involved in the assault or torture of one or more of these people, of this group of people who we refer to, is that correct? MR KOPI MR VISSER Did you see anybody being assaulted at the time? MR KOPI MR VISSER MR KOPI MR VISSER I have no further questions Mr Chairman. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VISSER [End of Tape 4, Side A - no follow-on sound] MR DU PLESSIS ...[no sound] and after he had gone to Pretoria, did you ever have any contact with him thereafter? MR KOPI No, Sir. MR DU PLESSIS Thank you Mr Chairman, I have no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR DU PLESSIS CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR STANDER Thank you Mr Chairman, I am going to indeed ask this person some questions. MR KOPI I found them at the office, I was called through a radio. MR STANDER When you arrived there, where did you find them? MR KOPI I first went to the head of my section who is Mr du Plooy and he told me that there were people upstairs, we should go and see what we can get. CHAIRPERSON What do you mean by upstairs? What floor were you on? MR KOPI I am sorry, I was on the 4th floor where du Plooy was and he said these people are on the 5th floor. CHAIRPERSON From that, do I understand your offices were on the 4th floor? MR KOPI No, I was called by the officer, he said he wanted to speak to me. And when I arrived there he said: "There are people who have been arrested trying to skip the country, you will find them on the 5th floor". CHAIRPERSON ...[inaudible] 4th floor, Mr du Plooy? MR KOPI Du Plooy was on the 4th floor. MR STANDER May I then take it that your office was on the 5th floor? MR KOPI Yes, it was on the 5th floor. MR STANDER Is that one of the offices that looked out on the so-called Violent Street? MR KOPI There was a sticker put there. I do not know who the person is who came with that sticker, it was just a sticker put there, nobody said it was Violent Street. MR STANDER Sir, the passage marked with the sticker, was that not known as Violent Street? MR KOPI It was known as Violent Street, we also knew it as Violent Street. CHAIRPERSON ...[inaudible] office door, does it open onto Violent Street? ADV DE JAGER MR KOPI It was office number 1 on the left side when you were going to the kitchen. ADV DE JAGER So, you worked in number 1 Violent Street? MR KOPI No. ADV DE JAGER Okay. CHAIRPERSON Was your office in Violent Street? MR KOPI Yes. MR STANDER Why was this passage called Violent Street Sir? MR KOPI I was an investigating officer, then someone would say: "You see, this sticker is put here so we should call this street - this passage, Violent Street. MR STANDER Yes, but why? MR KOPI Let me put it this way. There was a certain chap who was arrested, then we were from the 4th floor, because we interrogated on the 4th floor, so we went up to the 5th floor and he said: "Why is this sticker here, is this Violent Street"?, then the passage was called Violent Street. MR STANDER Can you remember who this person was who gave this street this name? MR KOPI I do not remember his name you know. CHAIRPERSON But the sticker saying Violent Street was already there. MR KOPI Yes, I myself found that sticker there, I do not know who put it there. MR STANDER MR KOPI MR KOPI Do you want to tell us that there was a person who put the sticker there and said: "Oh, this is Violent Street then". The question is simple, did you hear it from somebody or was that person in that time at that place? MR KOPI Even the 19 who were arrested said that was Violent Street. MR STANDER MR STANDER But Mr Chairman, on your question he said that when the sticker was there he had already been there. In other words when he got there the sticker was already on the wall. CHAIRPERSON MR STANDER That is true but my questions was: "Was that done by somebody who told you of an incident"? or was it something that he experienced himself, that was the question I asked. CHAIRPERSON Were you there when this person came up from the 4th floor and said: "Is this Violent Street"? MR KOPI This person was arrested before and I was with him in person. He wanted to go to the toilet on the 5th floor and I took him to the 5th floor. MR STANDER MR KOPI I would say so yes, because I was with him and he said: "This is Violent Street, why is the sticker here"? MR STANDER Do you know why that so-called sticker was never taken off the wall? MR KOPI I do not know. MR STANDER Because Sir, fine, what procedure was followed when there was somebody who had to be interrogated? MR KOPI When I interrogated you, I would take you to the 4th floor where there are no people. It would be myself and the white person who works with me. Maybe sometimes one would just come in and sit down to listen at the discussions. MR STANDER [No English translation] MR KOPI No, not in my presence, I do not want violence. MR STANDER MR KOPI MR STANDER Did you also offer tea to the person when you questioned him? MR KOPI No, we had tea at teatime, I would not be interrogating you while drinking tea. MR STANDER Did I understand you correctly, the kitchen is directly next to your office, is that correct? MR KOPI My office is on the 5th floor and I interrogate you on the 4th floor, I am far from my office. ADV DE JAGER ...[inaudible] about the kitchen. The kitchen, is that next to your office? MR KOPI MR STANDER MR KOPI That was so. MR STANDER On the morning of the 6th of April 1986, is it correct to say that these 19 people in fact were first taken to the kitchen. MR KOPI I do not understand your question. Are you asking before I reported for duty or after I reported for duty? MR STANDER Perhaps you must start with what time you started with duty. MR KOPI MR STANDER Were you already at that stage aware of the fact that these people were being held in the kitchen? MR KOPI No, at the time he called me I did not know that there were people in the kitchen. MR STANDER To move to the fourth floor, did you have to walk past the kitchen? MR KOPI No, you jump out of the lift on the 5th floor. MR STANDER But now if you go down to the 4th floor ...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON MR KOPI That is so. MR STANDER My apologies Chairman. MR KOPI I went only to du Plooy to hear what he wanted me for. MR STANDER And afterwards? MR KOPI After telling me that I went to the 5th floor. MR STANDER What was his order to you? MR KOPI He said I should go and see, that there are people upstairs, it seems as if they wanted to skip the country. We should find out how it came about that they wanted to skip the country and who sent them and who was the person to receive them the other side. MR STANDER In other words, you had to go and interrogate them? MR KOPI That is correct. MR STANDER Was it only you that got the order to interrogate them? MR KOPI We were three, it was myself Melesi and Mafisa. MR STANDER When did you hear that it was only the three of you who had to go and interrogate these people or was that just what was said to you when you arrived there? MR KOPI When we arrived at du Plooy he said: "There are people upstairs, go ask them". MR STANDER And when you got there, where did you find them? MR KOPI They were in the kitchen. MR STANDER What did they do while they were in the kitchen? MR KOPI They were sitting down - because there is a bench, some of them were on the bench, some were just on their feet. MR STANDER Were there any of them that were upset, in other words crying? MR KOPI You see according to my view, I do not remember, I do not recall seeing any person who was upset, they were quiet. MR STANDER Is it possible that some of them were upset but that you just cannot remember it today? MR KOPI MR STANDER MR KOPI I told you that these people were quiet when I entered the room. Yes, maybe they were angry, they were upset or they were just quiet. MR STANDER Did you see anyone crying? MR KOPI I did not see anyone crying? MR STANDER Did you look at each of them carefully? MR KOPI MR STANDER MR KOPI I did not realise. Let me put it that way, I did not realise. CHAIRPERSON MR STANDER As it pleases the Chair. Tell me, who decided which of the 19 people had to be interrogated and when, or was it just something that just happened and you came in and took the first one and questioned him. MR KOPI The interrogator would open the door and the first one you meet you call for interrogation. You do not have to get in and look around: "I want to take that one". MR STANDER Did you only question or interrogate, one of the people that day? MR KOPI I said I do not remember, it might be two or three and I had to leave because I other things to do. MR STANDER Can you remember what you asked this person? MR KOPI There are so many questions, I do not remember them all. MR STANDER MR KOPI JUDGE NGOEPE ...[inaudible] interrogated maybe one or two and then went away to go to do some work, had you not been called specifically by Mr du Plooy on radio to come and interrogate this particular group? MR KOPI Sir, he called me - there was a phone call from an informer so I had to leave these people and go and hear what the informer was bringing. MR STANDER MR KOPI I do not remember the white person who was with me but it was myself, a lady - I just forget her name, we were interrogating her in the office and there was another person who was sitting. Sometimes he would sit, sometimes he would leave. He would not be there all the time. MR KOPI And the second person, when he was questioned? Was it the same white person in the office? MR KOPI That is so. MR STANDER Did you use any strong language to interrogate this person? MR KOPI No. MR STANDER What language did you use? MR KOPI We were speaking Tswana and Sesotho. MR STANDER And was there somebody who acted as interpreter or were you the interpreter? MR KOPI I was the interpreter. MR STANDER Sir, I would like to put to you that it was highly unlikely that somebody would be interrogated who apparently was on the point of leaving the country because of political activity and that when this person did not give you the answers you expected, that you would just have left that person. MR KOPI MR STANDER Tell me, did you hear any screaming while the interrogation of yours was taking place, in any of the neighbouring offices or in the passage? MR KOPI MR STANDER Had there been screaming, would you have been able to hear it? MR KOPI You would hear the scream because my window was slightly open. MR STANDER And you said you heard no such screaming. MR KOPI Nothing Sir. MR STANDER Did you return later on during the day to the office? MR KOPI Yes. MR STANDER At what time more or less did you return to the office? MR KOPI It was at about half past three and I went to discuss the issue of my informer with the captain. MR STANDER Were the group of informers still there? MR KOPI Yes, when I came back at half past three they were still present. MR STANDER Where were they? MR KOPI I saw then on the 5th floor, that was when I went to get my things to go downstairs. MR STANDER Where were they on the 5th floor? MR KOPI I said they were in the kitchen. MR STANDER Did you look at them again at that stage? MR KOPI I was passing to go to the toilet and I would see them in the kitchen. I did not get straight into my office, I went to the toilet and when I passed I saw them in the kitchen and I came out of the toilet, got into my office, took my stuff and went down. MR STANDER Did you look at them when you walked past the kitchen? MR KOPI I just looked and passed. MR STANDER In the short time that you saw them, were there any of those that were upset? MR KOPI I would not say they were upset because I was just passing quickly. MR STANDER MR KOPI Yes. I did not see properly, I just saw that these are the people and then I passed because it was full in that kitchen. MR STANDER [No English translation] MR KOPI No, I left, I came back at half past three and then I reported to my captain and that was all. MR STANDER After you came, in other words after you got back to the office, did you have any further participation in the questioning of these people? MR KOPI No, I did not interrogate them. MR STANDER What time did you go off duty? MR KOPI MR STANDER And that group of people were still there when you went off duty? MR KOPI I say, when I left they were still present. MR STANDER And that time when you returned from the informant, did you hear any screams from the people there? MR VISSER ADV DE JAGER ...[inaudible] do you recall that ...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON MR VISSER CHAIRPERSON MR VISSER CHAIRPERSON Go on. MR STANDER On your return at half past three that afternoon, did you participate in the further interrogation of these persons? MR KOPI MR STANDER Between 3H30 and four, before you left, did you hear any screaming? MR KOPI I said I did not hear any scream because I was busy with Captain du Plooy discussing what was on the table. MR STANDER I have no further questions, thank you. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR STANDER [No sound] CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MEMANI That is correct. Now, Mr Kopi, we have been told that the people were arrested on the 6th of April 1986 were taken to Violent Street where they made frog jumps. MR KOPI MR MEMANI Now Mr Kopi, how long did your interrogation with the first person last? MR KOPI CHAIRPERSON MR KOPI Approximately 15 minutes. MR MEMANI Do you recall what you asked this person about? MR KOPI MR MEMANI What did you ask him about, ask her about? MR KOPI I said where was she going when she was arrested by the soldiers, I remember that well, then she said: "Going to Lesotho". Then I asked her again: "What were you going to do"?, then she kept quiet. Then I said: "Why do you keep quiet when I ask you what you were going to do"? MR MEMANI Was this person known to you? MR KOPI MR MEMANI And was du Plooy present when you were interrogating this persons? MR KOPI He was not present. I forgot which white person I was with. Du Plooy is the section head of the interrogation, he was not present there. MR MEMANI Now, this person that you interrogated, did you have any file on her? MR KOPI MR MEMANI From what you can recall, did you have a file? MR KOPI MR MEMANI MR KOPI MR MEMANI What had you been doing in the morning before you were called back by du Plooy? MR KOPI May you please repeat your question. MR MEMANI What had you been doing in the morning before you were called back by du Plooy? MR KOPI You mean the time I left or which time? MR MEMANI MR KOPI I was going to do investigations. MR MEMANI There were these people who arrived and du Plooy decided that you should be called back? MR KOPI Yes, du Plooy called me and said he wants to see me. I did not know why, I only knew when I arrived in his office. MR MEMANI And did you then go to see the informer and come back? MR KOPI Yes. Do you speak of the first instance or the second instance? MR MEMANI MR KOPI Yes, I went and returned at half past three, then I went upstairs, I went to the toilet and that is when I saw that those people are still there. I took those papers from my office and went to du Plooy to give him a report back. MR MEMANI Do I understand your evidence correctly, to be that you interviewed only one person on that day? CHAIRPERSON MR MEMANI Now, how many people - for how long were you in the office? MR KOPI MR MEMANI You told us that you were called back at about 11 and then you started interrogating people and then a call from the informer came in. Now, at about what time did the call from the informer come? MR KOPI MR MEMANI No, for how long were you with the informer? MR KOPI MR MEMANI MR KOPI MR MEMANI MR KOPI MR MEMANI Now for approximately how long were you in the office, after you arrived at the office at about 11? MR KOPI MR MEMANI Then you left at about 12 to meet an informer and you met the informer after 12, past 12. MR KOPI MR BRINK Mr Chairman, I really do hesitate to interrupt but I am not entirely sure where all this detailed cross-examination on matters which appear to me, with great respect, have nothing to do with the assaults which are alleged to have taken place over that three day period in relation to Mr Ngo or Mr Motsamai, who himself is applying for amnesty in respect of those assaults. CHAIRPERSON I have equal difficulty in understanding what this - whether he was 30 or 35 minutes. What is the point of all this Mr Memani? MR MEMANI Mr Chairman, can you give me the latitude because if I explain to you, the witness ...[indistinct] me. CHAIRPERSON Well I will tell you that at the end of it you will have to explain to me, if I do not then see the reason. MR MEMANI As the Chair pleases. MR BRINK May I suggest Mr Chairman, the witness be excused and Mr Memani tell you what this - be asked to leave the hall ...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON ...[inaudible] MR MEMANI CHAIRPERSON MR MEMANI CHAIRPERSON MR MEMANI CHAIRPERSON MR MEMANI MR KOPI MR MEMANI MR KOPI MR MEMANI MR KOPI MR MEMANI You went to see the informer and you know that you came back at 3H30. MR KOPI Yes, I remember I came back at half past three because I had an appointment at a quarter past four because I supposed to report back at half past four. MR MEMANI At what time did you meet the informer? MR KOPI MR MEMANI And then you tell us that you came back at half past three. MR KOPI MR MEMANI What information did this person give you? MR KOPI ADV DE JAGER MR MEMANI I believe so. ADV DE JAGER MR MEMANI CHAIRPERSON MR MEMANI MR VISSER CHAIRPERSON MR MEMANI CHAIRPERSON MR MEMANI As the Chair pleases. CHAIRPERSON MR VISSER Mr Chairman, we do appreciate that. Of course on the basis that if we find a reasonable reason - a reasonable gap before hand, we will take it. CHAIRPERSON I think you have all got appointments, travel arrangements made for tomorrow afternoon. MR VISSER CHAIRPERSON Right. We will now adjourn till 08H30 tomorrow morning. COMMITTEE ADJOURNS