amntrans AMNESTY HEARINGS 1998-01-23 BLOEMFONTEIN https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=54629&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/bloem/bloem5_2ndngo5.htm MR KOPI: (s.u.o.) MR MEMANI Now Mr Kopi, yesterday we were at the stage when you were giving hypothetical questions when I asked you about the times when you left the office and time when you got back to the office. CHAIRPERSON I think you should take your hand from your mouth. MR MEMANI As the Chair pleases. We were at the stage where you were given hypothetical answers to my questions about when you left the office and when you got back to the office. Do you remember that? MR KOPI Yes Sir. MR MEMANI Tell us, do you agree with me that you should have, you must have left the office at about twelve on that day. MR KOPI Sir, I shall explain the best way. When you the informer phones you and say to you let us meet between twelve and half past twelve I'm the first person to leave and arrive first at our meeting point. Maybe we agree that there are point A and point B, if you go to point A you find that point A is far from point B. MR MEMANI The question, for the last time. You told us that you arrived back at the office at about eleven and you stayed for about thirty minutes. You must have left the office at about twelve or half past twelve. Do you agree with me? MR KOPI Let me clear it firstly. I said I could have stayed in the office 30 to 35 minutes, left the office at about half past twelve. CHAIRPERSON That would be about half past eleven, surely. MR MEMANI But I'm saying the latest Chairperson to give him leeway. MR KOPI If the appointment was between half past twelve and to one, then I would ...[indistinct] MR MEMANI ...[indistinct] to the office about twelve thirty. MR KOPI That is correct. MR MEMANI Now tell me what is it that you recall specifically that you got back to the office about eleven on the first occasion and you got back again at about three thirty but you can't recall at about what time you left? MR KOPI It was because my informer told me a sensitive message so that I should come back early so that I should report back to my commander. MR MEMANI Now again what you've said is not an answer to the question. I will proceed to the next question. You told us that you remained in the office until left about four because you had an appointment for half past four. MR KOPI Let me put it clearly that I arrived at half past three then I went to the fifth floor, then I went to the toilet. Before I went to the toilet I saw that those people were still in the toilet and when I returned I saw them again in the toilet then I collected my belongings and then went down to the fourth floor so that we should discuss this issue with my commander. At 4 o'clock, then I left because because I knew that I have an appointment at half past four. I must report first home so that I should know they need. MR VISSER Mr Chairman may I enquire whether the interpretation was correct with regard to having seen them in the toilet? MR MEMANI Mr Visser has unfortunately has not listened to the witness, but maybe ...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON Well let's just ask him where did you see them when you were on the fifth floor, where did you see these people? MR KOPI When I got to the toilet, I passed through the kitchen, I saw them in the kitchen. MR MEMANI Now what appointment did you have at half past four. MR KOPI It's with another informer. MR MEMANI Was it your informer? MR KOPI That is correct, that's my informer. MR MEMANI Now did you go back to the office after you saw the informer. MR KOPI No, I didn't go back to the office. I contacted my sectional head and reported to him. MR MEMANI Well, you know I find it strange that on a day when there was so important work to be done in the office you were going on with routine. MR KOPI We wanted to find out what would the informer say. Maybe he was going to tell us about the nineteen people but he told me something different which I'm not able to tell you now. MR MEMANI Now, Mr Kopi, I'm told that you are the person who drove the vehicle, actually took the people to Glen police station after the ... MR KOPI The are times when I took these people to that Glen police station. It might be the second or the third day but I'm not sure, but I know that I did take these people to Glen Police Station. MR MEMANI But it was yourself and Motsamai who took them to Glen Police Station on the first day? MR KOPI No, on the first day I didn't take anybody to Glen Police Station. MR MEMANI That was on the day subsequent to the 6th, you took them to the doctor. MR KOPI I don't understand, do you mean the second or the third day? MR MEMANI Days you drove them to the doctor. MR KOPI The were people whom I took them to the doctor, but I remember the day where I took these specific people to the doctor. MR MEMANI Took them together with Motsamai. MR KOPI If there was nobody who would accompany me to take these people to the doctor, my sectional commander would send somebody to accompany me to that particular doctor. MR MEMANI Now is it not correct, Mr Kopi, that you were Du Plooy's interpreter. MR KOPI If there was necessary for you to interpret you'd do so but if you were still interpreting and the informer phones you then you leave that work of interpreting then you consult your informer. MR MEMANI You see I'm told that on that day you were interpreting for Du Plooy. MR KOPI No, I didn't interpret for Du Plooy at all. MR MEMANI You must have knew he was your interpreter, he ...[indistinct] your officer, he called you back into the office and he needed an interpreter, you must have interpreted for him. MR KOPI He may call you to his office and say to you, then he say I want you to interpret for me then you would tell him that I have an appointment with an informer. If that informer phones me, then you do that. Occasionally. CHAIRPERSON We want to know, did you in fact interpret for Du Plooy on this first day? MR KOPI I did say that, I haven't interpreted for Du Plooy on the first day. I just forget the white person whom I was with on that day. CHAIRPERSON He didn't interpret for Du Plooy, right, that's what you say, on the first day. MR KOPI Yes I didn't interpret for Du Plooy on the first day. MR MEMANI For anyone else? CHAIRPERSON He interpreted for a white officer, he cannot remember which it was. MR MEMANI Who do you think it could have been? MR KOPI At times you work with many white officers so I just forgot whom I did interpret for. MR MEMANI Do you remember that in your evidence in chief and in your evidence throughout cross-examination you told us that what you did was to take particulars of persons, you never mentioned that you interpreted for any white officer. MR VISSER My learned friend didn't listen to the evidence, Mr Chairman, he made it quite clear that he acted as an interpreter when necessary. : But there was a white officer sitting there who was taking notes. MR MEMANI My recollection, Mr Chairman, was that this was his functions generally that's what he does generally, the office, but when he came to this specific day, he told us that he came in at about eleven, he spoke to Du Plooy, and then he started picking people from the office. He stayed there for about fifteen minutes. I asked him what he was doing, he said that he was taking their details, their particulars, and if they didn't want to give information, he took them back. He spoke to two persons, two to three persons. CHAIRPERSON I interrogated one or two people, when we interrogated them they will be arrestee, I raised questions about the word, myself and a white officer taking notes. MR MEMANI As the chair pleases. Now, Mr Kopi, I am told you have never had an informer, in fact. MR KOPI The person who says I did not have informers, is playing, he wanted me to tell who my informers were. MR MEMANI Were your informers, the informers you saw on that day registered or not registered? MR KOPI Others were registered, others were not registered but the one I met on that day he was registered. MR MEMANI Now, every informer has got a number, isn't it? MR KOPI That is correct. MR MEMANI And what is the difference between the number of a registered informer and a number of an unregistered informer? MR KOPI The one which is registered, I would say, OFS7 only, the other one it will start with, there were numbers before the symbols there, then they would just put it on the particular paper. MR MEMANI And what did you say, how did you describe the number of the registered informer? MR KOPI The registered informer would have a particular number and the unregistered informer would have a number again. MR MEMANI You told us that an unregistered informer's number starts with OFS. MR KOPI I said a registered informer would have OFS or 7 then other unregistered numbers would have a number inbetween. Would have numbers inbetween then it would say unregistered informer then they would put his number in front. MR MEMANI A registered informer would have a number inbetween, inbetween what? MR MEMANI It would unregistered informer then after that it would be a number. MR VISSER Mr Chairman, my attention has been drawn to the fact that my learned friend, Mr Memani, has his hand in front of his mouth and apparently his voice is not coming through. CHAIRPERSON I've already drawn his attention to that and asked him to take his hand away from his mouth, he apparently has difficulty in sitting up without holding his chin. MR MEMANI Now, Mr Kopi, what is, and how does the number of the registered informer appear? MR KOPI Sir, I've already explained that. Do you need the number for unregistered informer or registered informer. MR MEMANI Mr, I told you, you told us about the number of an unregistered informer and I'm saying now tell us about the number of the registered informer. MR BRINK Mr Chairman, really, I wonder if Mr Memani could explain where this cross-examination is leading. It seems to me to have absolutely nothing to do with the applications. CHAIRPERSON He said yesterday afternoon that it would become clear I'm still waiting to understand what the purpose of this is. Mr Memani, you will remember that on the regulations in the Act governing these hearings there is a limited right of cross-examination. You appear to be determined to prolong it for as long as possible. I trust that at some stage the purpose of your cross-examination will become clear. And will you take you hand away from your mouth again are you incapable of sitting up without holding your chin? MR MEMANI My hand is away from my mouth, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Take it away from your chin. Sit up as if you're in a court. You aren't slumped here. MR MEMANI Mr Chairman, I'm not slumped here, I'm holding on to the side of my face but I'm not slumped. CHAIRPERSON Will you answer the objection that has now been taken. MR MEMANI Mr Chairman, I've already finalised the aspect that I was dealing with yesterday and that aspect was that I found it strange that he said he would be away for such a long time. That is why I was asking those questions yesterday. CHAIRPERSON Well as far as I'm concerned you have finalised nothing that couldn't have been done in five or ten minutes questioning. MR MEMANI Well Mr Chairman it was the witness is not answering the questions. MR VISSER Mr Chairman, I do object to that, with great respect we all know that the witness has promptly answered all questions and I wouldn't like this to stand uncontested on the record. CHAIRPERSON Carry on, Mr Memani, what's your next question? MR MEMANI Now, Mr Kopi, I was asking you to tell us about how the number of an informer who was registered appears. CHAIRPERSON Mr Kopi, did you tell us that the number of a registered informer would be "OFS"? MR KOPI The registered informer would be "OFS" and the men would put 7 in front of "OFS". The unregistered informer it would be written "unregistered informer", then thereafter he'd put numbers then they, then lastly on the end of that then they would put another number. MR MEMANI Now, my instructions are that you are entirely incorrect that ...[intervention] MR KOPI The person who says I am not telling the correct things is the one who is not telling us the correct things. MR MEMANI But the number of the unregistered informer would begin with OFS and then a number and then something would be put in brackets. ADV DE JAGER Mr Memani, I'll be prepared to accept that that's the position. That he's wrong in this and that it's the other way round. But can you please now explain to me what's the relevance for your application? MR MEMANI He says that he was not at the place where people were being assaulted because he went to see an informer, that he does have informers. I am then trying, I'm saying to you he was not at any meeting with informers, in fact he did not have informers and I'm trying to test that. That is why I'm saying to him he must tell us what numbers look like for instance. Now I'm also told that the number of a registered informer would begin with an S, an S and then you get the number. MR KOPI I hear the S for the first time. MR MEMANI That you worked with Mbanjani in the office where information was gathered. MR KOPI I haven't worked with Mbanjani. MR MEMANI In the main, you were an interrogator. MR KOPI I said, if you are called and being instructed that you should interrogate, or interpret, you'd do that because that is a command you get from your sectional head. MR MEMANI No, but, we know that there were field workers for instance we've been told that there were people who worked mainly with the MK and ANC and Mbanjani told us he was mainly in the office doing, listening to the news and so on and I'm told that you worked in that office and that you were also specialising in interrogation. MR KOPI You tell me that Mbanjani was listening to peoples news. I don't understand as to whether was I with Mbanjani or I was with those who were investigating. Can you just clarify your question. CHAIRPERSON What he's put to you is you worked in the same office with Mbanjani and that you were, although you worked in the same office with him, you were employed there as an interrogator. That is what he is suggesting to you. MR KOPI I now understand. At times I got to Mbanjani's office but not, it was not my daily business to do that. MR MEMANI And in the main you were an interrogator? MR KOPI I was interrogating and again I was working with informers. MR MEMANI You are not convincing you know because you had the numbers even muddled up. MR KOPI That's how I remembered those numbers for informers. MR MEMANI Then what is an SAP5. MR KOPI It's a diary. MR MEMANI And an SAP67? If I may have a moment Chairperson. INTERPRETER The interpreters were struggling with the word "verslag", it has been interpreted as a report. MR MEMANI Mr Kopi, I'm putting it to you that you did not see any informer on the 6th April 1986? MR KOPI I tell you that I met my informer. MR MEMANI And you did not have any informer. MR KOPI I had informers. MR MEMANI You are saying these things in an attempt to pull yourself away from Fountain Police Station because you know that people were assaulted there on that day. MR KOPI I'm not taking myself out of the situation. MR MEMANI When you came back to the office at about three did you see that people had been beaten up? MR KOPI I said that I, I said I left there at half past three that I didn't see any person who was beaten. I went to fifth floor then I took my belongings then I went down to Du Plooy report to him. MR MEMANI Amongst the people that you conveyed to plan, did you see that some of them were injured. MR KOPI No Sir, I didn't see anything because when you put somebody at Glen Police Station before that person goes to Glen Police Station that person is asked as to whether does he have complaints or not. Then from there if the he has complaints they will open a docket. MR MEMANI And my instructions are that you and Motsamai actually told the police at length not to register any complaints. MR KOPI Motsamai is talking his own version, I would not agree to that. Why did not the person who has assaulted that person didn't take him to Glen Police Station? MR MEMANI But that's nonsensical Mr Kopi with due respect. Now Mr Kopi, the people who were beaten up were, and injured, testified that they were beaten up and that they were conveyed to the police station Glen and no complaints were registered. MR KOPI Mr Memani, I said to you that, I still repeat, that there was no person who was assaulted in my presence. MR MEMANI And you did not see that the people that you conveyed to Glen were injured? MR KOPI No they were fine, I did not see any person assaulted. MR MEMANI Now Mr Kopi, did you not hear, you say that you did not hear, what did you not hear? MR KOPI I just wanted to cough out I did not want to say anything. MR MEMANI And did you hear after the 6th that the people that were interrogated on the 6th April were beaten up? MR KOPI No person told me that there were people who have been assaulted. MR MEMANI Now, Mr Kopi, when you told us when you were speaking about Violent Street, that the person who named it Violent Street was a member of the public. Or let me rephrase that, you told us that the name of the person, the name Violent Street, came as a result of an enquiry that was made by a member of the public who was in the offices. CHAIRPERSON Well he told us there was a sticker up there reading "Violent Street" and that a person was brought up from the fourth floor to the fifth floor who saw this sticker and then asked: "Is this Violent Street, is that not his evidence? MR MEMANI It's the same question put differently, Chairperson. Now, Mr Kopi, were there toilets on the first floor? CHAIRPERSON Do you mean that questions, toilets on the first floor? MR MEMANI Yes, Chairperson. Were there toilets on the first floor. MR KOPI You are not talking about the first floor, you are not talking about the fifth floor. CHAIRPERSON No, he's talking about the first floor, he said specifically. Who occupied the first floor? MR KOPI From first floor to third floor is DK. CHAIRPERSON Is who? Who occupies the first to the first to the third floor? MR KOPI District Commander's office. CHAIRPERSON Do you know if he had toilets on the first floor? MR KOPI From first floor to fifth floor there were toilets. MR MEMANI You see I'm asking you this question because in your evidence you said that this person was being interrogated on the fourth floor and wanted to go to the toilet on the fifth floor. CHAIRPERSON What has that got to do with toilets on the first floor? MR MEMANI Well, Chairperson, you know that when sometimes ...[indistinct] the question by asking a person questions which might not be directly in point. CHAIRPERSON No, I don't know, you have been doing that for several hours now and I don't see the point of it and as I pointed out to you, you have a limited right of cross-examination. Bear that in mind, Mr Memani. MR MEMANI We haven't sat for an hour this morning, Chairperson. Now, Mr Kopi, I'm putting it to you that it was, what you told us yesterday was a lie. MR KOPI I tell you what I told you yesterday is the truth. MR MEMANI Why would a person have chosen to go to the fifth floor if there were toilets on the fourth floor? MR KOPI There are toilets on the fourth floor. He just wanted to stretch his legs. Then you take him from the fourth floor to the fifth floor so that he would be able to stretch his legs. JUDGE NGOEPE Mr Memani, you said that we hadn't sat for an hour yet, but I would have thought that a witness like him, it would not have been impossible to dispose of him in fact in much less than an hour, twenty minutes, fifteen minutes but you have got your own way of cross-examination anyway. I want to put questions to you Mr Kopi, you said, did I hear you correctly, you said something like you did take down some notes and left them when you left to go and see an informer. MR KOPI That is correct. JUDGE NGOEPE What notes were they? MR KOPI I took the particulars of the person I was interrogating, all his particulars, where he attend his school. I'd say he was in a school at Sungawelo, then I would write those notes to prepare for the person who was going to do the interrogation of saying here is the name, don't struggle. JUDGE NGOEPE Yourself, personally, you did not seek any information from any one of those people. MR KOPI Yes I wanted some information from them, that is when I said to him you left here, where were you going, then he said we're going to Lesotho then I said to that person: "What were you going to do"? Then at the time I received a telephone message saying your informer wants to speak to you. Then I left those notes, I left them with a person I was with in that office. Then I'm going to hear the message that person from the phone. Then I learnt that it with my informer then I, that's when I left. JUDGE NGOEPE You said you had interrogated two to three people. Would I be correct to assume that before you moved onto the next one you had finished with the first one? MR KOPI Yes I've already finished with the first one, then he said we're going to Lesotho then when I said what were you going to do then he kept or she kept quiet. JUDGE NGOEPE She didn't give you the information that you wanted. MR KOPI Yes she didn't give me the information I wanted because I said I'm going to waste time then I went to fetch another one. I'm not sure as whether it's one person or two persons or three persons. JUDGE NGOEPE You were not satisfied with their answers? MR KOPI Yes I was not satisfied with their answers then I said to myself I'm going to waste time if I continue with that interrogation. JUDGE NGOEPE And, well at that point I must mention to you that some of the complainants said they were assaulted because information was sought from them which apparently they did not want to depart, to impart. MR KOPI I will not dispute what he's saying when they say they were not assaulted, they could have been assaulted in my absence. JUDGE NGOEPE I will not put that to you because I am not very confident of my recollection as to whether anyone of them said you assaulted them. I'll leave it at that point but now you'll move onto the next one, to interrogate her, am I right. Because you feel the first one was wasting your time because she was not answering the questions or giving you the information you wanted? MR KOPI Yes I did interrogate another one, then he said he doesn't want to continue. MR MEMANI When you speak of interrogation, I must ask you for clarification. Were you interpreting or were you interrogating? MR KOPI We worked as interpreter as I was with this person we would interrogate the person, all of us, but at the same time I would be the one would be interpreting only. MR MEMANI And the second person that you interrogated, did you get the information that you wanted from her? MR KOPI I remember that maybe the third one is the one when - whilst I was busy with her the telephone message arrived then I was called to respond to the phone, then I left everything in that office then I left and then Du Plooy said take the car quickly and go and see your informer. JUDGE NGOEPE Are you talking about the third person? MR KOPI Yes I speak of the third person, I remember well, it's the third person. JUDGE NGOEPE Talk about the second before you talk about the third. Did you get information you wanted from the second person? MR KOPI I didn't get any kind of information I sought from him or her. MR MEMANI You were not satisfied? MR KOPI Yes I was not satisfied. JUDGE NGOEPE However, you did not assault her even though you were not satisfied, Your version is that you did not assault her? MR KOPI I was not satisfied and I did not assault because if you start to assault that person will tell you a lie then at the end of your interrogation you find that this person has told you a lie. That is why I don't like that person should be assaulted during interrogation. JUDGE NGOEPE Then you were interrupted while you were talking to or interrogating the third person? MR KOPI Yes I remember that is the third person. MR MEMANI You left to go and see your informer and subsequently in the afternoon at half past three you came back. MR KOPI That is correct. JUDGE NGOEPE At that time, when you came back at half past three following the logic of your evidence, you had still not been satisfied within that you had not yet as yet obtained information you had wanted to obtain from the people you wanted to interrogate in the morning. MR KOPI The time when I left I was not satisfied but when I came back I found, I received a different information which we need to follow up. JUDGE NGOEPE Did you at any stage make a follow up? You had made a few notes, you were interrupted, you had not got information you wanted, did you after 4 o'clock or whatever, did you make your follow-up and finish up where you had started with regard to those particular individuals? MR KOPI No I didn't continue with the interpreting or the interrogation. When I arrived I went to fourth floor, I went back to Mr du Plooy then I give him the information I received. Then Du Plooy said leave at 4 o'clock and go home. Then half past four, go and see that person you're supposed to see. JUDGE NGOEPE Do you not feel that well, you know, I need to interrogate some people and I was not satisfied, I made some few notes I must follow up that. MR KOPI He said to me, I will tell you, leave, do that work with your informer, meet your informer at half past four then we'll meet again. CHAIRPERSON Is the position that on that day there were teams of people interrogating these nineteen people, there were lots of other members of the security branch there interrogating them. MR KOPI I remember then it could have been like that because there were many. JUDGE NGOEPE You see the version given to us by at least some of the complainants is that there was such a vicious assault on them and that there were traces and evidence of assault in the form of blood on the walls and the like. MR KOPI I said firstly, nobody was assaulted in my presence and secondly if you talk of blood I haven't seen blood anywhere. ADV DE JAGER Mr Memani put it to you that you Motsamai took people to the doctor, when was that? MR KOPI Say a person is sick, I transported many people it's not only specifically involving these nineteen people. Even before that any person who was sick who was being detained, if Motsamai was near then I would request that I should go with Motsamai and take this person to the doctor. ADV DE JAGER But wasn't the District Surgeon right down in the same building? MR KOPI The time when I arrived there in 1984 there was no District Surgeon, he has already left. ADV DE JAGER And 1996, on the 6th April 1996 when the nineteen people ...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON 1996? ADV DE JAGER 1986, sorry, when the nineteen people were arrested, wasn't there a District Surgeon on the ground floor or the first floor roundabout? MR KOPI No. There was no District Surgeon there. ADV DE JAGER Thank you, it had been at another stage then. CHAIRPERSON Mr Memani, have you any further questions? MR MEMANI No questions, Chairperson. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MEMANI CHAIRPERSON Mr Brink? MR BRINK Thank you Mr Chairman. Mr Kopi, during the time that you were at Fountain, did you ever see bags which could go over heads or tubes which were used to blindfold people? MR KOPI I didn't see those things because I was not using them myself. MR BRINK Did you ever hear anyone talk about them? MR KOPI There was no policeman who came to tell me that there was those kind of things, the bags or tubes in the office or in the offices. MR BRINK Were any of the offices where interrogations took place soundproofed? MR KOPI I'm not sure whether they were soundproof or not. MR BRINK Did you ever enquire? MR KOPI You mean about soundproofed? You'd hear if somebody was screaming or calling, you would hear if somebody was calling or screaming. MR BRINK I beg your pardon, I didn't hear you? MR KOPI You'd hear if somebody is calling or screaming. MR BRINK If you were in your office, someone could shout from another office then you would hear that, is that the situation? MR KOPI Yes if the window is open you would hear but if the door and the windows are closed it's not quite possible to hear. MR BRINK Now, can you help me. Are there any regulations or were there at that time any regulations regarding the requirement that a policewoman should be present when a female detainee was being questioned? MR KOPI I don't know, I haven't seen a female police, only white female police were present and they were doing clerical work. MR BRINK No the question is were their regulations, to your knowledge which required a policewoman to be present when a female detainee was being interrogated by members of the security branch? MR KOPI No. MR BRINK I take it you read newspapers? MR KOPI At times, yes. MR BRINK The fact that there had been a number of hearings before the Amnesty Committee, where a large number of security branch or former security branch policeman have gone so far as to admit having murdered activists, you know that. MR KOPI Yes I saw it on T.V. I read it on the newspapers I listened on the radio. MR BRINK All at about this time '85/'86, a lot of them. MR KOPI Yes I saw that. MR BRINK But you say that the security branch headquarters at Fountain in Bloemfontein, to your knowledge, absolutely nothing untoward took place? MR KOPI I would not say that because I do not know. MR BRINK To your knowledge? MR KOPI It's difficult to say they did that because I do not know. MR BRINK Thank you. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR BRINK CHAIRPERSON Did you share this office that you've told us of with anybody? The office on the fifth floor? MR KOPI It was the four of us. Myself, Melesi, Mafisa, Ngalo, He has since died. CHAIRPERSON And what sort of work did the other three do? MR KOPI We were doing investigation. CHAIRPERSON You were a team were you. MR KOPI That is correct. CHAIRPERSON And who was your officer in charge of you? MR KOPI That was Captain du Plooy. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. MR VISSER Mr Chairman, there is one question in ...[intervention] ADV DE JAGER Did you keep a pocket diary? MR KOPI The time I arrived they were not using the pocket book. MR STANDER Did you sign a register? MR KOPI No we were not signing a register, we were reporting directly to Captain du Plooy. CHAIRPERSON Would he have kept a record of when people reported for duty and when they left? MR KOPI I would not able to affirm that because we reported half past seven and then when we supposed to knock off duty we would report back to him again. RE-EXAMINATION BY MR VISSER Thank you Mr Chairman. In 1986, what was your rank then? MR KOPI I was constable. MR VISSER Did you have anything to do with the registration of informers, the paperwork concerning the registration of informers? MR KOPI My work was to look for informers and to make it possible for them to be registered. MR VISSER And would you do the registration or would someone else do the registration in the books. MR KOPI There was a person who was doing the registration. MR VISSER Thank you Mr Chairman. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VISSER MR VISSER Mr Chairman, I beg leave to call my next witness, Commissioner Tsomela. The Commissioner has indicated that he would give his evidence in English. K TSOMELA (Sworn states) EXAMINATION BY MR VISSER You may sit down, Commissioner. MR VISSER You're a Commissioner and you are in fact are you not, the Deputy Commissioner of the South African Police Service of the Free State. MR TSOMELA That is correct, Chairperson. MR VISSER When did you join the South African Police, Commissioner? MR TSOMELA On the 3rd of May 1968. MR VISSER 1968. Can we go directly to April 1986 and I want to ask you generally - well first of all, what was your position during 1986 in the South African Police. MR TSOMELA I was a Station Commissioner at the ...[inaudible] since 1983. MR VISSER Since 1983. Can it be said that you were a member of the Security Branch. MR TSOMELA The uniformed branch. MR VISSER You were in the uniformed branch. You made an affidavit which you signed and which has been placed before you - it had been introduced in the evidence as Exhibit P65, Mr Chairman. Do you remember that affidavit Commissioner? MR TSOMELA I still remember it and I have it in front of me here. MR VISSER Yes, and do you confirm the contents of that affidavit? MR TSOMELA I will ...[indistinct] MR VISSER Now just generally, the period of the mid 1980's, as far as unrest and violence was concerned in the area of Botshabelo, could you just give the Committee a background of how you remember the situation to have been? MR TSOMELA Yes, Chairperson, unrest happened sporadically time and again in Botshabelo due to some certain dissatisfaction maybe moreover of students at schools etc., etc., which the public or policing or maybe the security branch or the C.I.D. Branch had to investigate some cases etc., etc. And my position at that stage as I've indicated was that of a Station Commissioner and I was a guardian, the helper and the protector which of each and every individual at the particular police station that I managed. MR VISSER I wonder if I could ask you perhaps if you could speak up a little louder if you will, Commissioner. MR TSOMELA I will definitely, Sir, I'm sorry. MR VISSER Thank you. Would it be correct to say that around 1985/86 lots of people were arrested and moved through your police station at Botshabelo. MR TSOMELA That is true, Chairperson. MR VISSER It has been suggested here by an applicant in this case - and that applicant is Mr Ngo, that at the time when you were at Botshabelo Police Station in 1986, there was a large group of students mainly who were arrested by the South African Defence Force in the Ladybrand - I'm sorry I've got this wrong, I'm mixing up the two. There was, call it a raid, if you like, where people were arrested, a large group approximately 40 people were arrested in the Botshabelo area and brought to your police station. Are you able today to identify that particular incident or not? MR TSOMELA No Chairperson I cannot, as I'm saying that sporadic incident happens and the branch commanders of the different units or components lead their duties according to the available crime intelligency. MR VISSER May I then ask you this, if it is suggested by anyone that you as a policeman at Botshabelo, participated in the beating up of arrested persons at Botshabelo, what would be your reaction? MR TSOMELA Chairperson, that is totally untrue because as I've indicated as a guardian, protector and a Station Commissioner that was not my duty. My duty was to see to the wellbeing of each and every individual that might be detained at my police station to his wellbeing. And the regulations and police act and standing order says that I should not, under no circumstances, allow an assault to take place in my presence. MR VISSER And are you aware of large scale assaults on any group of persons by members of the security branch from Bloemfontein at your police station at any time? MR TSOMELA No Sir, I cannot recall one at the present moment but I think that if there were, dockets should have been opened and I could have instructed that that should be done. MR VISSER Yes. Since what date have you become the deputy commissioner of the South African Police in the Free State? MR TSOMELA On the 1st June 1995 Chairperson. MR VISSER Thank you Mr Chairman. That's the evidence Mr Chairman. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VISSER CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR STANDER Commissioner, did you ever personally meet Mr Ngo? MR TSOMELA I don't know Mr Ngo, Sir. I cannot point him out at the present moment, I don't know him. MR STANDER Right, thank you very much Mr Chairman, I have no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR STANDER MR DU PLESSIS I don't have any questions thank you Chairperson. NO QUESTIONS BY MR DU PLESSIS CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MEMANI Mr Tsomela, we were told about the raid of children from Kwago High School where about 40 to 45 of them are arrested? MR TSOMELA No, Sir. MR MEMANI It might not have been interpreted correctly but I'm saying that we were told about the raid of involving the peoples from Kwago High School in Botshabelo. MR TSOMELA Nobody did tell me about any raid Sir. The fact being that each and every component works according to his crime intelligency to his disposal of which the key is confidential you know, moreover for the affectivity of the duty as such. MR MEMANI These children we are told were taken to a police station. MR TSOMELA I don't disagree about that. As I've said many, many, many, students moreover - as I've indicated, were held at my police station. MR MEMANI But this was one big swoop that was made once. MR TSOMELA Ja, as I've indicated I don't know about any big group of children who were arrested at one time. As I'm saying you know that happens sporadically and me myself, as I could not took part actively with those particular raids, I don't know of any big group of a specific incident. MR MEMANI These children were not arrested sporadically but it was a planned raid that took place at night. MR TSOMELA Ja, that's quite right, I've indicated that you know the raids are not organised by me as a protector and the Station Commissioner. MR MEMANI But surely your co-operation would have been required because it was your station. MR TSOMELA My co-operation would moreover come as far as logistics etc., etc., are concerned of which I think that during the unrest, have had already been given to the necessary individuals who might have needed them like vehicles etc., etc., which maybe have in totality been distributed to individuals who could have utilised them. MR MEMANI Mr Tsomela, this raid took place at night and I believe that you did not work at night ordinarily. MR TSOMELA That is true I don't work at night ordinarily but my duty during the night, I visit my station sporadically but on that particular night maybe, I don't remember of any, any children who were held at the police station maybe during a sporadic or an unorganised visit of myself. I never met such a group myself. MR MEMANI Well it's obvious that this time it would have been preplanned, you would have been warned in advance that you should be present, that a raid would be carried out in Botshabelo. MR TSOMELA By whom? By whom Sir, be warned by whom? MR MEMANI By security branch. MR TSOMELA They could not because the fact as I've indicated the security branch won't disclose their activities because I wasn't attached to the security branch. They were not directly reporting to me, I was not directly reporting to them as such. MR MEMANI But surely if they needed your co-operation you've said, in respect of logistics and vehicles, they would have to speak to you. MR TSOMELA Moreover, the security branch, Chairperson, had their own in actual fact, logistics etc., of which maybe they have fulltime for their operations because they could not at all times come to me and maybe request such logistics. But my members maybe and the public or the police, maybe could maybe for their shortcomings could have come to me. MR MEMANI But you are now departing from your evidence that it, of course the police would speak to you, security branch would speak to you, and assist with logistics such as giving them vehicles and so on? MR TSOMELA That is true yes we have such a shortage, Chairperson, I agree with that. MR MEMANI So they would have spoken to you? MR TSOMELA Totally, - not in this incidence Chairperson, I did not - nobody ever came and informed me about this. MR MEMANI Are you suggesting that at some stage 40 to 45 people were arrested and detained at your police station without you becoming aware of that fact? MR TSOMELA Even more than that were detained in my cells of which I visited each and every morning during the afternoon and during evening. MR MEMANI I beg your pardon.? MR TSOMELA I say, even more than that were detained, happened to be detained at Botshabelo Police Station. MR MEMANI Now, Mr Tsomela, you must have warned about these proceedings and that you're being implicated in the, isn't it? MR TSOMELA No, Sir, I have not been warned as I've said and I never took part, as I've said. MR MEMANI You don't understand, I said you must have been warned about these proceedings. MR TSOMELA Will you please come again Sir? MR MEMANI I'm saying that you must have been warned about these proceedings. MR TSOMELA No, Sir. MR MEMANI How did you come here? MR TSOMELA This present residence? MR MEMANI Yes. MR TSOMELA Yes I've been warned that I must appear here. MR MEMANI And you were warned last year? That would be 1996 possible. MR TSOMELA '80, no, no, '97 that's last year Sir. MR MEMANI Okay. Now in all the time you had the opportunity to verify from pocket books and from records books at Botshabelo. MR TSOMELA To verify what Sir? MR MEMANI You see, you are here telling us that you don't recall this incident, and I'm saying that one would then have expected that you would go to the police station and try and see if you could see such an incident. MR TSOMELA Ja, that is true Sir, I didn't do that but the fact is that no date was given to me as to which particular day, the fact was that it was in 1986 and as a result of that I could not, you know, maybe recall and go to a specific date and look for this particular issue. MR MEMANI But are you sure that you would have been able to locate an entry that would be most, that would resemble the evidence given here, most than the rest. MR TSOMELA As far whom is concerned, Sir? MR MEMANI What I'm putting to you is that many people were arrested at Botshabelo. The numbers varied, the incidents varied and in one way or another you would have been able to see entries which would likely resemble the incident. MR TSOMELA As I'm saying Chairperson, I did not go to the file to verify that for the mere fact that I did not have dates etc. MR MEMANI Now I'm putting it to you that you avoided looking at the occurrence books because they would confirm the incident or because you did not want to confirm the incident. MR TSOMELA Chairperson, that is not my case but the fact is that I think those pocket books or occurrence books are still available, if the Station Commissioner at present is still keeping them so I think we can collect them at any moment. MR MEMANI Now, did you have any differences with Mr Ngo? MR TSOMELA Which Mr Ngo? I indicated that I don't know Mr Nelson Ngo that we was talking about here. MR TSOMELA Now Mr Ngo has got no reason to falsely implicate you and say you were present if you were not present. MR TSOMELA Sir, I won't know his attitude, why he has maybe thought that we have done that but the fact is that I was the Station Commissioner at Botshabelo. MR MEMANI Or should we accept his version because you can't recall the incident. MR TSOMELA What I'm saying that I don't know Mr Ngo, Sir, and I never participated, I never took part in maiming or torturing people myself. JUDGE NGOEPE Mr Stander, by the way did you have amongst you as your clients, complainants in respect of this particular incident? MR STANDER Unfortunately not, Mr Commissioner. JUDGE NGOEPE Commissioner, were you given handwritten statement by Mr Ngo, was it shown to you? MR TSOMELA The one that he has written himself, yes Sir, I did have a photocopy of that. JUDGE NGOEPE You see the opening sentence says "During 1986" he gives the year 1986 and then as you have already been told, towards the end of his statement there he alleges you took part in the assault and he talks about 40 to 45 people having been detained at your station and so on. I would have thought that at least if he indicates the year, and also take into account your very senior position, it would not have been difficult for you to check with the records whether such an incident did take place, the detention of 40 to 45 people at your own police station. MR TSOMELA I agree with your point Sir, but as I have indicated, that you know as I thought that during the whole process of the investigation that might have been done. JUDGE NGOEPE You yourself, didn't it sufficiently trouble you, seeing that you were being implicated, to take the initiative yourself? MR TSOMELA Well I didn't do that Sir. JUDGE NGOEPE Well shouldn't you, I mean the Deputy Commissioner? MR TSOMELA As I'm saying Sir, the records are available, they can be collected from the Station Commissioner. JUDGE NGOEPE What kind of book will show it, will it likely be the occurrence book or what? I mean if 40, let's say this thing happened, 40 to 45 people are arrested in the township, brought into your police station, they are put together in the yard there and - let's forget the question of assault, would that incident be recorded? MR TSOMELA The incident would be recorded for those people who are being detained in the cells. They will go through the necessary ...[indistinct], maybe there ...[indistinct], and the occurrence book as such at the register of property of the detainees. JUDGE NGOEPE Oh, yes, there is a suggestion that they were locked up so that they can - well there is a suggestion that they were locked up. MR TSOMELA Then I assume that they should have been brought through necessary registers for detainees. JUGDE NGOEPE And will this OB still be there at Botshabelo or elsewhere or in Pretoria or in Bloemfontein? MR TSOMELA No, no, no. I am talking under correction, the fact is that in terms of the - how do you call it, the stored instructions, I think they must still be there, being kept and held at the Police Station by the current Station Commissioner. MR MEMANI Now, Commissioner, you know Coetzee of Security Branch? MR TSOMELA I think I might know him but you know there were many Coetzee's here. I happen to know Coetzee but at the present moment I know which Coetzee you are talking about, as I'm saying there were a lot of Coetzee's who has gone through the security branch in Bloemfontein. MR MEMANI Now, I'm told that that is the Coetzee who'd make arrangements proceeding the raid with you. MR TSOMELA I don't know what Coetzee is that and the fact is that I could not under ...[indistinct] undertake an instruction from Coetzee as such. I was not working directly under him. MR MEMANI You see, it was not instructions as such but you are the person who had to provide personnel such as the riot squad and people who would assist security branch in the arrest. MR TSOMELA As I have said Sir, no such an arrangement was made with me but there were people on the ground responsible and commanders of the different units who were on the ground maybe to execute such raids. MR MEMANI Are you saying that people under you at your police station would make arrangements regarding placing personnel at the disposal of policemen from another unit without your knowledge? MR TSOMELA As I have indicated, Sir, the fact is that for the sake of confidentiality, they should at times you know, arrange and go and do the necessary duty that they've seen. They should ...[indistinct] further you know, making it loud making it known to each and every individual. MR MEMANI And you were person who is central, as a head of the police station, they could speak to you and you only. MR TSOMELA The fact is that I say a sensitive issue could maybe be brought to my attention but any process of a normal investigation, that would not be so necessary that they should come to me and tell me about that. CHAIRPERSON Was there a riot unit at Botshabelo? MR TSOMELA Come again, Chairperson? CHAIRPERSON No, sorry, I withdraw that. Did you have special constables at Botshabelo? MR TSOMELA I employed them, attested them in 1987 Sir. CHAIRPERSON In 1986 we're talking about now, were there special constables at Botshabelo? MR TSOMELA If I'm still correct Sir, according to my knowledge I attested them in 1987, as I was given such an instruction. CHAIRPERSON It would appear that the members of the - as I read it, it's not clear, that it would seem that the police who assisted them were special constables at Botshabelo. MR TSOMELA That can be verified Sir but I still maintain my saying that special constables only came about in 1987. ADV DE JAGER Commissioner, according to the statement by Mr Ngo. "After the rest, they were taken to the Botshabelo Police Station and we locked them in one control yard and Warrant Officer Mbanjani then showed us those comrades who were regarded as being the leaders". Can you perhaps help me, this control yard, where was it? MR TSOMELA Ja, it's a control yard in a sense that the detainees van, let me call it that way, the truck it's parked in there it's just big enough to take maybe, this big truck and lock it inside there. That's maybe the place that I understand that they might have been taken there of which they can maybe refer as the control yard, made in such a way that you know when the detainees are to be taken to court etc., they are within and encompassed in a controlled area. ADV DE JAGER He further alleges that "They were stripped naked and they were made to run in a circle and they were hit with plastic shamboks" MR TSOMELA The trailers in front, are so transparent you know, that I don't understand how that can be done because it's at an open space where the members of the public do pass as well. So I think that if that had been done, it's very outrageous because it's an open door with two building on the sides. ADV DE JAGER "And they were hit until they were tired and then they were given exercises and they were beaten on their private parts. Some of the comrades started swelling and bleeding on their private parts and the comrades were screaming and crying" I'm not sure at what time this happened but afterwards they were... "And when all the comrades were weak and could almost do nothing we spray with water and left them there so that they can be locked up after they have recovered from all the beating" Now if they've been locked up there - you said you inspected the people, the cells and so on. MR TSOMELA Yes every morning me today and before I knock off duty I must go through the cells and see to the wellbeing of the detainees. CHAIRPERSON And is a record kept of this? MR TSOMELA An occurrence book entry is made. CHAIRPERSON Of inspection of cells, no complaints that sort of thing. MR TSOMELA Exactly Sir, that's correct. CHAIRPERSON So that would be in the occurrence book? MR TSOMELA That's right Sir. ADV DE JAGER Have you seen people bleeding or their private parts swollen and heavily beaten up by plastic shamboks? MR TSOMELA Totally not Sir. CHAIRPERSON Do you have - sorry I'll go back to this now, do you have a riot unit or a riot squad at Botshabelo, Did you have? MR TSOMELA The actual public order policing were situated in Bloemfontein but they travelled around wherever ...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON But they were not part of the Botshabelo Police Station? MR TSOMELA Ja, they came sporadically, maybe time and again, whenever unrest emanated. CHAIRPERSON Because it appears from Mr Ngo's application that Colonel Stevenson was there in charge of the operation, did you know a Colonel Stevenson? MR TSOMELA I know Stevenson very well and if I'm not amazed, he was stationed at Bethlehem at that time. CHAIRPERSON Bethlehem? MR TSOMELA Bethlehem. MR MEMANI Mr Tsomela, I'm told that no policeman from one area can go to another area and arrest people without speaking to the station commander of that area. MR TSOMELA Like which people Sir? MR MEMANI Well the people who normally arrest people. MR TSOMELA Okay, I think what we are dealing here with, it's Botshabelo situated within the District Commissioner of Bloemfontein and we had a unit branch of the security branch situated at Botshabelo and members of the public order policing are responsible under the District Commissioner, to curb all riots within the District Commissioner's area. MR MEMANI Well what I was putting to you is that I am told that there's no policemen from one area can go into another area and arrest people without speaking to the local Station Commander. MR TSOMELA That's what I'm asking Sir. Which policemen of a different area did come in? From which area. MR MEMANI Do you want to answer the question, do you want to confirm that no policemen from area can go into another area without speaking to the local Station Commander? MR VISSER Mr Chairman, Visser on record, may I come in here. I have the same difficulty the witness has. First of all my learned friend does not inform you or anybody else where he gets his information from and more importantly, Mr Chairman, and this is what is leading to confusion and I don't want to put words in the mouth of the witness, but he's got to distinguish, is he talking about security branch members? Is he talking about riot squad members? What's he talking about? That's what's confusing us all, Mr Chairman. If he could be a little bit more specific I'm sure the witness can be very helpful in this regard. CHAIRPERSON Also I don't know if it's relevant but the impression I got from the witnesses, does Botshabelo fall into the same district as Bloemfontein? MR TSOMELA Under the same district commission of Bloemfontein by those days, Sir and even at the present moment falling then, now, under the area commission of Bloemfontein still. MR MEMANI Now, would you like to answer the question which I put to you, that no policemen from one area can go into another area without speaking to the local Station Commander? CHAIRPERSON Well you've been asked to explain what you mean from one area, policemen from one area. MR MEMANI Mr Chairman, to save time I'll go directly to the next question. Mr Tsomela, my instruction are that policemen from Bloemfontein would not have gone to Botshabelo and arrested people without speaking to the Station Commander at Botshabelo. MR TSOMELA Chairperson as I have indicated, during unrest the Station Commissioner informed the District Commissioner and as a result of that people are placed on the ground and if we are talking about that there were riots as I'm saying there were, they could place - policemen are place enough so that they can curb riots. And the commanders in charge as I've said at the beginning do co-operate and work together and that is the responsibility of the District Commissioner because they are within his area of jurisdiction. MR MEMANI Look, I'm still saying to you and I'm repeating the question and you are not answering the question. MR TSOMELA I'm sorry Sir. MR MEMANI I'm told that policemen from Bloemfontein could not have gone to Botshabelo to arrest people at Botshabelo without speaking to the local Station Commander. MR TSOMELA Chief, I might say in the beginning they will come to me but knowing that they are in Botshabelo, the South African Police Act give them the authority to arrest whoever the traitor is. MR MEMANI So at least you concede they will come to you. MR TSOMELA They will come to me Sir. MR MEMANI Now, I am also told that you in fact as a Station Commander at Botshabelo, actually lodged complaints with the security branch or should I say rather, you reported to Security branch that you were having problems with unrest in your area. MR TSOMELA First of all what I should say Chairperson, is that the security branch are the actual people who gave us information and they are on the ground, they are people who come in contact with such information plannings and everything etc. MR MEMANI Would you not as a station commander have reported to security branch that you're having problems with unrest in your area. MR TSOMELA Ja, I will, I will if I encounter problems I will report to my District Commissioner, but as I'm saying the security branch are the fist people and they are still, people who come in contact with the planning of such incidents as such. MR MEMANI So you did report to security branch that you having problems with unrest in your area? CHAIRPERSON Did he say that? I thought he said I would report to my District Commissioner. MR TSOMELA Correct, Chairperson. MR MEMANI Yes, and so ...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON That doesn't mean the security branch. He did'nt say he had reported to the security branch, did he? Mr Memani, you must listen to the witnesses answers and not then say he said something he has not. Did you say you would report to the security branch? MR TSOMELA No Sir, to my District Commissioner. MR MEMANI Now, I was also told that as a Station Commander, you are the person who was to authorise operations by staff who fall under your police station. MR TSOMELA At my station Sir, I make up Commanders who are assigned to do each and every particular aspect and as a result of that we had what we called a Crime Prevention Unit, of which I usually put a person in charge of that. So I mean I've got a lot of different components like investigators etc., etc., motor car accident operators etc. So as a result of that I've got commanders who might be operating at that level. MR MEMANI But not at the level of conducting a large scale raid. CHAIRPERSON Will you please take your hand off your mouth Mr Memani so that we can hear you? MR MEMANI But not at the level of conducting a large scale raid? MR TSOMELA Well I don't know what you mean by a large scale raid because as I'm saying, our normal investigative duties are being done through that process that I have already explained. CHAIRPERSON What is the relevance of this? It does not tie in with Mr Ngo's application, does it? MR MEMANI It does Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Mr Ngo's application says that "That in 1986, members of the sub-unit of the security branch stationed at Botshabelo" and he names the four of them. "reported to Colonel Coetzee at Fountain Street" He goes on to say what they reported. "and having received the report, the two commanding officers, Colonel Coetzee and Colonel Stevenson, ordered all the members of security branch to report on duty at 3 o'clock in the morning in Fountain Building. On our arrival, Colonel Stevenson and Colonel Coetzee briefed the members that they were going to arrest comrades at Botshabelo and they would be assisted by members of the riot unit and the Special Constables at Botshabelo". That is Ngo's version. MR MEMANI He proceeds later and says that Tsomela was present and Tsomela says he knows nothing about this and what I'm establishing is that he must have known about this thing. CHAIRPERSON Well Ngo's version is that there was a complaint made to the security branch and they said let's go and raid. And the complaint was made by, and he specifically says "The sub-unit of the security branch stationed at Botshabelo Police Station" and names the three people, the unit commander, the assistant commander. MR MEMANI What I'm dealing with Mr Chairman is his denial that he knows about this incident. CHAIRPERSON He's denied it. You made you point. You go on and on and on and you are not putting your client's version. MR MEMANI Well, Mr Chairman, I'm not a policeman and all the things that I'm putting come from my plans or... CHAIRPERSON Well, I'm looking at his application before us to what he says happened. MR MEMANI But with due respect, Chairperson, if someone denies something, I am entitled to cross-examine him by saying that circumstances were such that he should have known about this incident. Now he's saying he doesn't know anything about it and I'm saying you were the station commander. CHAIRPERSON The sound has gone. PROBLEMS WITH AUDIO EQUIPMENT MR MEMANI And I'm saying that you are the Station Commander, you should have known about these things. May I proceed Chairperson? Do you still want me to address you or do you want me to ask questions now? CHAIRPERSON I want to know the purpose of the questions. Are you putting the version that your client put in the application or are you putting a different version? MR MEMANI I'm not putting what is contained in the application, I'm putting questions to deal with the denial. I'm attempting to show that the denial cannot be true because he was the Station Commander and in all likelihood he would have known about this thing. MR VISSER Mr Chairman, may I please be allowed to say one thing. The evidence of this witness has never been that he denied that the incident took place. His evidence is that he cannot identify in his mind, in his remembrance, that particular incident, that's his evidence. CHAIRPERSON But the point that Mr Mamome is making is that it's not just that he would have heard of it but that they would have had to ask his permission before they carried out the operation, so it's not a question of saying: "Look it may of happened, I was not there I don't know". Mr Memani's point which he has made, he has put to the witness is: "If outsiders come into your area they should notify you and get your permission therefore you should remember. That's you point isn't it, Mr Memani? MR MEMANI That's correct Mr Chair. CHAIRPERSON And it's been suggested that if the occurrence book shows that 45 people were detained at 4 o'clock in the morning and were in the cells the next morning, it's a little surprising that the station commander doesn't remember it? MR VISSER No the only point was that I understood Mr Memani to say that he's denying that the incident took place and I was just putting that straight. MR MEMANI Now I'm told that the people who were arrested were then taken not to Fountains but to Grootvlei, do you recall that? MR TSOMELA No Sir. As I'm saying Sir, I was not dealing with the investigation as such and the arrestees, that was not my responsibility to arrange the place of retainment as such but the investigator, according to his crime intelligence. MR MEMANI You see I'll tell you the impression that I've got and why I'm putting this to you. The impression that I got is that in instances with security branch as security branch alone were interested in matters, they arrested people and they took them to Fountains and from there they would take them to prison. And on this occasion people were taken from Botshabelo Township into your offices, they were not taken into your cells and they were interrogated there and then taken to Grootvlei. CHAIRPERSON That's a prison, is it? MR MEMANI Grootvlei is a prison, yes. CHAIRPERSON So there would be records of their admission at Grootvlei, of the injuries they suffered? MR MEMANI If that was permitted, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON They were taken when to Grootvlei, the same day? MR MEMANI It is not clear from the instructions Chairperson. Don't you remember that incident? MR TSOMELA Well I was not involved in that proceeding Sir and I don't know. MR MEMANI But surely the detention of people at about 4 and an interrogation of people and later conveyance to Grootvlei would have taken quite some time, long enough for you to have come on duty at about 7 or 7.30? CHAIRPERSON There's no evidence to that effect, is there? Because the evidence was simply they were sprayed with water and locked up to recover from their injuries, it doesn't say how long. MR MEMANI As the chair pleases, I'll leave the matter there. Those are the questions, Mr Chairman. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MEMANI CHAIRPERSON Mr Brink? MR BRINK No thank you Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON Any re-examination? RE-EXAMINATION BY MR VISSER Just one issue, Mr Chairman. Commissioner, the sub-unit of the security branch about which you spoke just a little earlier, can you remember who those people were in 1986, if you can't please say so. MR TSOMELA Ja, the man in charge was the Warrant Officer Paul van der Berg. MR VISSER Second in charge, can you remember? MR TSOMELA Warrant Officer Mbanjani came sporadically but he was not actually permanent as far as my understanding but - well I don't know their entire internal arrangements, but he used to come to Botshabelo to assist Warrant Officer van der Berg. MR VISSER There is reference here to Sergeant Smith in the application of Mr Ngo, can you tell us something about Sergeant Smith? MR TSOMELA Sergeant Smith was for a very short while in Botshabelo. I think he passed away in a car accident within a week or two after his landing in Botshabelo. MR VISSER Yes, so he could have been there only for a about a week or two. MR TSOMELA That's right yes. MR VISSER Is it at all possible to find a record somewhere where one could establish the date of Mr Smith, the late Mr Smith, Sergeant Smith's death? If you could perhaps help us with an indication or a suggestion from your side? MR TSOMELA Yes I think from the head of the security branch from Bloemfontein he might still have his file, I hope. MR VISSER Lastly, was Constable Lesale, is that a person that you know personally, Lesale - L-e-s-a-l-e? Was he a member of that sub-unit of the security branch? MR TSOMELA I won't deny that Chairperson, but I just cannot recall him you know. MR VISSER You can't recall him. CHAIRPERSON Was this a separate unit responsible to Bloemfontein, who merely were stationed at your police station? MR TSOMELA It was a sub-branch emanating from the main branch in Bloemfontein Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON And were they told what they should do by Bloemfontein. MR TSOMELA That is quite true they were reporting to Bloemfontein main head office. CHAIRPERSON They weren't reporting to you? MR TSOMELA No Sir. MR VISSER Perhaps I should just place this on record lastly Commissioner. You don't deny that the incident took place? MR TSOMELA That is true Chairperson. MR VISSER It's just that you say that you can't particularly remember this particular incident. MR TSOMELA That is true Sir. CHAIRPERSON I think you go further than that don't you, you say you did not participate in this incident in any way. MR TSOMELA That is true Chairperson. MR VISSER We'll leave it for argument Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON You're not going to suggest that a Station Commander would not recollect people being beaten while naked in his police station at 4 in the morning and that he participated. MR VISSER No, I'm suggesting precisely the opposite Mr Chairman. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VISSER CHAIRPERSON Thank you. FURTHER CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MEMANI Mr Chairman may I ask something which I forgot to put to the witness? Mr Tsomela do you remember a Sergeant Coetzee who worked at your police station? MR TSOMELA Coetzee? MR MEMANI I was told Kotze. MR TSOMELA Kotze? A Sergeant Kotze? MR MEMANI Yes. MR TSOMELA Yes there was a Kotze at - of which I know, who was attached to the security branch at Botshabelo. MR MEMANI And he used to drive a Datsun 4x4 Van or Bakkie? MR TSOMELA Ja, ja maybe, but we had a lot of 4x4's in Botshabelo because of the unpassable area naturally in Botshabelo. MR MEMANI I'm indebted to the chair. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MEMANI ADV DE JAGER Mr Memani, I would like you to - not at this stage, to keep in mind the application and when you address us kindly tell us where this incident fits in on the application and especially as far as the pre-trial conference is concerned, as one of the items for which Mr Ngo is asking amnesty. MR MEMANI As the Chair pleases. CHAIRPERSON This appears in his application at page 31 doesn't it "Acts of offence of torturing comrades at Botshabelo". MR MEMANI That is correct Chairperson, except that you know, at this stage it seems that it would be more appropriate for Mr Visser to give the references because he is leading in chief. ADV DE JAGER I'm only saying that there was a 14TH paragraph, annexure annexed, and the pre-trial conference refers to those - oh, it's 2.14 thank you. MR VISSER Mr Chairman the next ...[intervention] MR TSOMELA Thank you Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. WITNESS EXCUSED MR STANDER Mr Chairman just before we proceed, I have been given instructions that some of my clients know some of the persons who were arrested there and assaulted at Botshabelo Police Station on this specific occasion on which we are hearing evidence. It is also my instruction that during the following - this coming weekend we will attempt to get hold of those people and if they become available it will in order to assist the police - the Commissioner, to offer this evidence. This is being done as a result of a question from Judge Ngoepe, whether any of the persons have consulted me. That is merely just information. CHAIRPERSON Their names appear on the application some of them. They have been available for years, why do they suddenly think they're going to appear at this stage? If you look at page 35 of the application, he says "Some of the comrades I can still remember who were beaten by me and the members of the security branch in the process of their arrest are Jaluka, Mokoke, Makushang Kutabong, Molashawani Molakani. MR MEMANI Mr Chairman, to assist Mr Stander, the problem doesn't lie with Mr Stander but to the fact that the Investigative Unit did not chase these people up and did not did not give them notices. That is why they were not before - the people who came before you or became Mr Stander's clients, were mostly people the TRC had brought to him. MR STANDER I also want to add, I do not waste the commission's time, I just want to inform the commission that the possibility exists to assist the commission. If such persons come forward it will happen during the course of next week. If the commission tells me that I do not have to do anything further in this connection, I will leave it as such. CHAIRPERSON No, if you wish to notify them, or somebody wishes to notify them, I'm not saying he shouldn't. JUDGE NGOEPE And I should say that when I asked that question, I was not suggesting that we should open these proceedings in such a way that they should look like it's just a free for all situation. These are formal proceedings and people should come in at the right time if they want to testify and I did not suggest that proceedings should be just opened up and be allowed to get out of hand like that. MR STANDER I have understanding for the situation, I will leave the matter there. MR VISSER Mr Chairman, to save time, can the witness go to the witness stand so long, the next witness? MR VISSER Mr Sesedinyane please? CHAIRPERSON Perhaps there should be some enquiry made Mr Stander, because I have drawn your attention to the fact Mr Ngo names at page 35 of his application, names four of the victims. The victim Maloshono Malakane was interviewed by, on behalf of the TRC apparently and she informed the interviewer that she had never been tortured or detained at the Botshabelo Police Station in 1986 and she knows where the other people are. So if anybody wants to, they can enquire from her. She's told where the other people have moved to, she has a telephone number. MR STANDER I undertake to - if possible, to get in touch with these specific persons and I will inform the commission on Monday what has been done about that. BUTINYANE SIMON SESEDINYANE (sworn states) MR VISSER May I continue Mr Chairman? Mr Sesedinyane, is it correct that your name is spelt S-e-s-e-d-i-n-y-a-n-e? CHAIRPERSON S-e-s-e-d- ? MR VISSER It's P41, Exhibit P41 Mr Chairman, I was just going to refer you to that but I will spell it again - S-e-s-e-d-i-n-y-a-n-e, and his christian names are B-u-t-i-n-y-a-n-e Simon. Now, Mr Sesedinyane, you have a problem with your interpretation? Mr Sesedinyane, are you a member of the South African Police Service? MR SESEDINYANE That is correct. MR VISSER Since, or rather when did you join the South African Police? MR SESEDINYANE From 1973 Sir. MR VISSER And is it correct that you also became a member of the security branch here at Bloemfontein. MR SESEDINYANE That is correct. MR VISSER Did you ...[intervention] ADV DE JAGER Could you kindly assist me, sorry to interrupt you. It's Exhibit? MR VISSER P41, 41 Mr Chairman. It may have been bound in a bundle, let me just see Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON 13, page 13 of Exhibit B. MR VISSER Thank you Mr Chairman, I was just going to look for the page. CHAIRPERSON Sorry, it's not page 13. MRS VISSER No, it's not page 13. MR VISSER It says 13 on the index. MR BRINK If it's the affidavit, it's a page 108 I think. MR VISSER Indeed, it's page 108 of bundle B Mr Chairman. MR VISSER Is it correct that you became aware that certain allegations of illegal activity were made against you Mr Sesedinyane? MR SESEDINYANE That is correct. MR VISSER And did you thereupon make an affidavit with Attorney Wagner? MR SESEDINYANE That is correct. MR VISSER Is that the document now being shown to you and was that signed by you? MR SESEDINYANE That is correct. MR VISSER And did you make that affidavit out of your own free will without anybody cohersing you? MR SESEDINYANE That is correct. MR VISSER Do you confirm the contents of that affidavit as being true and correct? MR SESEDINYANE That is correct. MR VISSER In paragraph 2.3 you refer to an annexure B of an applicant. Just by way of explanation, that is an annexure which refers - that refers to an annexure to Mr Motsamai's application, is that correct? MR SESEDINYANE That is correct. MR VISSER Mr Chairman, why I'm making this point is you will recall, there is an Annexure A and the same document became an Annexure B and then there were cross-references, Annexures A and B, but they were the same document. Perhaps it will be less confusing if you bore that in mind. But apart from the allegations contained in paragraph 12 to which we'll come in a moment, by Mr Motsamai, is it not true that you were implicated by a Mr Ngo in his application? MR SESEDINYANE That is correct. MR VISSER And that concerned the item of the, what we refer to as the Botshabelo incident? MR SESEDINYANE That is correct. CHAIRPERSON Where is this, where is the reference? MR VISSER Page 31 of bundle A Mr Chairman, page 31. We must just place on record Mr Chairman, that it's not altogether clear that this is the particular person that is implicated. If you look at the handwritten document at the foot of page 35. CHAIRPERSON Yes, he names a Samuel. MR VISSER Yes, the second last name. CHAIRPERSON That is the only reference to a name isn't it, at page 35? MR VISSER We're departing from the point of view that he may implicated and that's why he is presenting himself to you as a witness, Mr Chairman. During 1985 and '86, what were your duties as a policeman? Where were you stationed with what unit were you working and what were your duties? MR SESEDINYANE I joined the police in 1973. I was stationed at Park Road uniform branch. MR VISSER And in 1985? MR SESEDINYANE In 1985 I was in the uniform branch and in 1986 or 1985, I was working at special duty in East London. MR VISSER Alright. MR SESEDINYANE And in 1986 on the 7th month on the 24th, I started at the security branch in Bloemfontein. CHAIRPERSON At what date? MR SESEDINYANE On the 24th of July 1986, on the 24th of July. ADV DE JAGER Sorry, did you say June or beginning of July, still in East London? that's 1986? MR SESEDINYANE I was in East London and when I left I went straight to the security branch. MR MEMANI Mr Chairman, before Mr Visser proceeds, we have just been instructed that the person implicated, Samuel Sinyane was a special constable at Botshabelo and is not a member of the security branch and therefore Mr Sesedinyane can go and have a rest. CHAIRPERSON Person implicated by who? MR MEMANI By Ngo. CHAIRPERSON But what about Motsamai? MR MEMANI As the chair pleases. Yes I remember now he's implicated in the forming of the church. CHAIRPERSON Yes. MR MEMANI Yes, thank you. CHAIRPERSON Yes. You don't say that that was not him. MR MEMANI No. CHAIRPERSON But you say that the Ngo one, that although he is referred to there as constable it was a special constable? MR MEMANI Yes. Mr Visser may proceed Mr Chairman. MR VISSER Thank you Mr Chairman. Alright, well then lets confine ourselves to paragraph 12 page 148 of bundle A, Mr Chairman. Here, Mr Motsamai in his application said that he, Mamome, Sergeant Sesesidayne, that's you, and Constable Morakile petrol bombed a parish house in Botshabelo. He says he cannot recall the name of that parish or the church, he says the priest who was staying in that house had been involved in political activities. "Sesedinyane can furnish further information regarding that incident" So what Mr Motsamai says is you were part of the group of people who petrol bombed the parish or the church and you can give up yourself - can give further information. Can you comment on what I've just read to you? What do you say about that? MR SESEDINYANE The issue that I took part in that group which petrol bombed the church or the parish, it's a lie. I dispute the whole issue. MR VISSER Just tell us, do you know whether a parish house in Botshabelo had indeed been attacked with petrol bombs at some stage or other? MR SESEDINYANE I did not hear anything in that regard. I started to know that after receiving the summons, to know that something like that happened in Botshabelo. MR VISSER Yes, now what church - do you go to church Mr Sesedinyane? MR SESEDINYANE That is correct. MR VISSER And what denomination do you follow? MR SESEDINYANE Roman Catholic Church Sir. MR VISSER And what about your family, them as well? MR SESEDINYANE The whole family, that's the father, the mother the whole family and myself, and my whole family, they attend the Roman Catholic Church and I attended school at Roman Catholic Church. MR VISSER Do you attend church in Botshabelo or in another place? MR SESEDINYANE In Bloemfontein. MR VISSER Now you've said it's a lie, do you mean by that that you deny that you took part in any attack on a church or a parish? MR SESEDINYANE That is correct, it's a lie, I didn't take part in the attack of that church and I did not have a reason to attack even the same church, the Roman Catholic Church or any other church. MR VISSER Do you know of or were you aware at the time of a priest that had been involved in political activities that you can remember about today? MR SESEDINYANE You mean in Botshabelo? MR VISSER Yes. MR SESEDINYANE I did not have a knowledge that there was a priest or minister who was involved in political activities. MR VISSER Your particular job at the security branch in Bloemfontein, would it be correct to say that from the middle of 1986 - July I think when you told us, you worked in a particular section on the security branch, is that correct? MR SESEDINYANE That is correct. MR VISSER And what section was that? MR SESEDINYANE It was called swart seksie/black section. MR VISSER Black section. Who worked with you in that section? MR SESEDINYANE Sergeant Mamome, myself, Motsamai, Mtyhala, I don't remember others. MR VISSER The point is this, was Mr Ngo part of that section at any time that you know about? MR SESEDINYANE I don't know Ngo, I've never worked with Ngo, I've only read about him in the newspaper called Volksblad, about his incidents. I don't know him. MR VISSER Isn't it a fact that when you came to the security branch in 1986, Mr Ngo wasn't in Bloemfontein any longer, so you don't know him? You never worked with him and you don't know him? MR SESEDINYANE I don't know him, I haven't worked with him. When I arrived I didn't find him at the security branch. MR VISSER Those are the questions, thank you Mr Chairman. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VISSER MR DU PLESSIS i have no questions Mr Chairman, Mr Visser has taken over my questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR DU PLESSIS CHAIRPERSON Mr Stander? MR STANDER I don't have any questions, thank you Chairperson. NO QUESTIONS BY MR STANDER CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MEMANI Mr Sesedinyane, when did you join Bloemfontein security branch? MR SESEDINYANE On the 7th month, on the 24th 1986. MR MEMANI This was in July? CHAIRPERSON ...[inaudible] MR MEMANI I was listening to the Sotho Chairperson,it required some thinking about. CHAIRPERSON He gave that evidence in chief. MR MEMANI As the chair pleases. Now, before then, where were you working? MR SESEDINYANE I was working at uniform branch in Park Road. MR MEMANI And where did you live? MR SESEDINYANE In Bloemfontein. MR MEMANI Where in Bloemfontein? MR SESEDINYANE Blumanda. MR MEMANI Is that far from Botshabelo? MR SESEDINYANE Blumanda is right inside Bloemfontein, it's in Addisburg Road. MR MEMANI I meant Botshabelo, I'm sorry, the township here. MR SESEDINYANE I don't understand what he's saying. MR MEMANI Is the area where you live very far from Botshabelo? MR SESEDINYANE Blumanda and Botshabelo are not one and the same thing, Blumanda is Blumanda, Botshabelo is Botshabelo. MR MEMANI But the question I am asking, is it far from that place? MR SESEDINYANE I'm not able to tell the difference. After two blocks is Palming and Rocklands, then after that you get Blumanda. I would say it might be - the distance between the two, it will be 15 kilometres. MR MEMANI Did you not at any stage get to hear about an informer who had been exposed by students and injured? MR SESEDINYANE No, Sir. MR MEMANI Now did you not ...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON I'm totally confused, you told us you joined the special branch in Bloemfontein on the 24th July 1986, is that correct? MR SESEDINYANE That is 1986, on the 7th month, on the 24th I joined the security branch in Bloemfontein. CHAIRPERSON Yes, now I understood you to say when you were giving your evidence in chief, that you came from Bloemfontein to East London. Did I misunderstand you? MR SESEDINYANE I don't understand your question Sir. CHAIRPERSON You were stationed in East London at some stage? MR SESEDINYANE I went to East London for a three month special duty, then when I returned I joined the security police in Bloemfontein. CHAIRPERSON When you were in East London? MR SESEDINYANE Because it's three months I'm not able to put it into perspective. CHAIRPERSON Well, was it immediately before you joined the security police? Would that have then been May, June and July of 1986? MR SESEDINYANE Let me explain. I was stationed at Park Road, I left Park Road and then I went for three months special duty in East London. When I returned from East London I joined the - I went directly to join the security police on the 24th July 1986. MR MEMANI Now, Mr Sesedinyane, did you know Erasmus? MR SESEDINYANE I know him. MR MEMANI And was he there when you arrived at security branch in 1986? MR SESEDINYANE I'll not say he was there or he was not there, people come and leave. I'll not say as to whether he was there or not but I know him. MR MEMANI Don't you recall that he was already a member of Bloemfontein at that stage and actually stationed at Fountains? MR SESEDINYANE As I explained that the people would arrive and are those who leave. I'll not say I came with him or he came before me or after me, but I know him. MR MEMANI Are you trying to suggest that you are not aware of the presence of a senior policeman who was there when you joined this station and has never left that station according to what we've heard? MR SESEDINYANE If you are not working with a person directly you will not say he is there or is not there. I know Mr Erasmus, but I was not working with him directly. MR MEMANI And Shaw? MR SESEDINYANE I know him, I worked with him directly. MR MEMANI And he was there when you joined Fountains? MR SESEDINYANE That is correct. MR MEMANI And Coetzee? MR VISSER He has said that he doesn't remember, Mr Chairman. MR MEMANI That's not in the evidence, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Has he been asked about Coetzee before? MR VISSER Oh, I'm sorry, Coetzee ...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON Will you please not interrupt Mr Visser. MR VISSER Mr Chairman, I beg your pardon, I made a mistake. MR MEMANI And Mr Coetzee? MR SESEDINYANE He was there. MR MEMANI Now, do you recall whether Motsamai was there in 1986 when you joined? CHAIRPERSON Mr who? MR MEMANI Motsamai. CHAIRPERSON ...[inaudible] MR MEMANI I've asked him about ... And Motsamai, was he there when you joined? MR SESEDINYANE He was present. MR MEMANI Did you also work with him? MR MEMANI That is correct. MR MEMANI And Mamome used to work with Motsamai? MR SESEDINYANE That is correct. MR MEMANI So these are all people that you worked with closely? MR SESEDINYANE Yes I nearly forget one, that's Mr Ramosoeu, I just remembered his name. Those people I've mentioned they compromised our section. MR MEMANI And your team was a good team, the relations between members of the team were good? MR SESEDINYANE I don't know if we had a good relationship. What did you mean, there would be conflicts if people are working together? MR MEMANI Well, were you not on good terms with any member of the team? MR SESEDINYANE In Sesotho, when you say you are not in good terms with a person, it does not necessarily mean that you are in conflict with that person. MR MEMANI Were there any bad feelings between yourself and any member of the team? MR SESEDINYANE There was no member whom I was in conflict with because of a particular behaviour, meaning myself. I don't know of that person, I mean meaning myself. MR MEMANI Particularly you did not have - there were no bad feelings between yourself and Motsamai? MR SESEDINYANE There was no conflict between myself and Motsamai, the conflict which was there was work related. We didn't have bad blood with him but it was just then and there. MR MEMANI Now, you said that Mr Motsamai told us that he was with you when a certain church was bombed. MR SESEDINYANE I dispute that. MR MEMANI He told us that he went there with you and Mamome. CHAIRPERSON I think you should correct it, it wasn't a church that was bombed, it was a house. MR MEMANI A parish house. CHAIRPERSON A parish house. I'm indebted to your lordship. Now a parish house was bombed by yourself, Mamome and Motsamai. MR SESEDINYANE Sir, I've never committed such an act. MR MEMANI Together with Morakile. MR SESEDINYANE I refuse. MR MEMANI If I may take instructions, Chairperson? Now you told us that you got the instructions from Shaw and Coetzee. MR SESEDINYANE I've never said that. MR MEMANI Or may I repeat, he told us that it was instructions from Shaw and Coetzee. MR SESEDINYANE If those were his instructions I do not know them. MR MEMANI Now at the time that I when Motsamai resigned from the police force was there any ill blood between yourself and Mr Motsamai, Are there any ill feelings? MR SESEDINYANE I do not know how to answer that question because I was not working with him. MR MEMANI When did you stop working with him? MR SESEDINYANE It's a long time Sir, I do not remember. MR MEMANI Those are my questions Mr Chair. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MEMANI CHAIRPERSON Mr Brink? MR BRINK No thank you Mr Chairman. NO QUESTIONS BY MR BRINK CHAIRPERSON Re-examination? MR VISSER No re-examination thank you Mr Chairman. NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR VISSER CHAIRPERSON It appears - I think it might assist and I think I should have done this earlier, from E2, that the date of this incident was the 18th August, 1986. MR VISSER Mr Chairman, may I suggest that we take an adjournment. CHAIRPERSON I think it a convenient idea. We'll take a short adjournment. COMMITTEE ADJOURNS ON RESUMPTION SELANE SHADRA LESALE (sworn states) EXAMINATION BY MR VISSER Mr Chairman, the next witness is Mr Lesale. You will find his affidavit in bundle B at page 94. Mr Lesale, are your names spelt: your surname, L-e-s-a-l-e? And your christian names are Selane: S-e-l-a-n-e, is that correct? MR LESALE That is correct. MR VISSER Shadra? MR LESALE That is correct. MR VISSER Did you sign an affidavit? MR LESALE That is correct. MR VISSER And is that the affidavit before you? MR LESALE That is correct. MR VISSER And do you confirm the truthfulness of the contents of that affidavit? MR LESALE That is correct. MR VISSER Are you still with the South African Police services today? MR LESALE That is correct. MR VISSER And what is your rank? MR LESALE Detective Sergeant. MR VISSER And when did you join the South African Police? MR LESALE 1984, on the 4th month, on the 21st 1981, sorry. MR VISSER 21st of April 1981. MR LESALE That is correct. MR VISSER And did you at some stage join the security branch here in Bloemfontein? MR LESALE That is correct. MR VISSER Can you remember when that was? MR LESALE I don't remember the day but it was in 1985 in June. MR VISSER June 1985. Now in what section did you work in the security branch in Bloemfontein? MR LESALE I was working with the trade unions. MR VISSER And in doing that, were you working together with other members of the security branch here in Bloemfontein in that section? MR LESALE That is correct. MR VISSER And who were they? MR LESALE I was working with Petrus Miningwa. MR VISSER And that is spelt M-i-i-n-g-w-a. Yes? MR LESALE Our section head was Captain Hendrik Prinsloo. MR VISSER In the type of work which you did in that section, did it come about that you worked with other members of the security branch or were you pretty much working on your own? MR LESALE We were not meeting with other members of various sections. MR VISSER Did you ever work with Mr Nelson Ngo? MR LESALE Not at all. MR VISSER And Mr Motsamai? MR LESALE No Sir. MR VISSER Now Mr Ngo has alleged in his application at page 31, that in 1986 - I'm sorry that is bundle A of course Mr Chairman, that in 1986 there was a sub-unit of the security branch stationed at Botshabelo. Do you know about that? MR LESALE I know of that unit but I haven't worked in that unit. MR VISSER So when Mr Ngo says that in 1986 - that is page 31, that you were a member of that sub-unit he's mistaken? MR LESALE He's lying. MR VISSER Then Mr Ngo refers at page 35 to your name - that's the bottom of the page, Mr Chairman, item 8, he refers to you as being one of the persons who was involved in what he alleged to have been an assault on comrades who had been arrested in a raid in 1986. What do you say about that? MR LESALE I never worked in Botshabelo, even what he's saying I don't know that. MR VISSER Now coming then to Mr Motsamai - as you stated in your affidavit in paragraph 2.3, he implicates you in three incidents and they are incidents 6, 10 and 14. Now I want to refresh your memory with reference to page 147 of bundle A where he says this: he says that he, Motsamai, Mamome, Constable Lesale and Constable Miningwa petrol bombed the parental house of one Citi Mzuzwana. Citi Mzuzwana was an organiser of the Mangong Youth Congress. Now first of all, in 1986, what was your rank? MR LESALE Constable. MR VISSER Did you know Mr Citi Mzuzwana at the time? MR LESALE No Sir. MR VISSER Did he feature at all in your investigations into the activities of trade unions? MR LESALE No Sir MR VISSER What do you say of the allegation that you were a member of that group who petrol bombed the house of the parents of Citi Mzuzwana? MR LESALE I know nothing about that. MR VISSER Do you from your own knowledge know where that house had in fact been attacked? MR LESALE I don't remember. MR VISSER Coming then to the next one which is paragraph 10, Mr Motsamai said the following: he said himself, Mamome, Constable Morakile, Constable Mtyhala, which is - well, perhaps, I'm sorry Mr Chairman, may I start again, Mamome, spelt M-a-m-o-m-e, Constable Morakile, M-o-r-a-k-i-l-e, Constable Mtyhala - this is an incorrect spelling and I'll spell it correctly, M-t-h-y-a-l-a, Constable Litseo, L-i-t-s-e-o and Constable Lesale who is yourself, petrol bombed the house of Teacher Bolosha, B-o-l-o-s-h-a who was a member of the UDF. Was this person a person that you were giving attention to as in your work concerning the activities of trade unions? MR LESALE It's not like that I don't know that person. MR VISSER You don't know him. Did you participate as a member of a group who petrol bombed his house? MR LESALE It's not like that. MR VISSER Do you personally have knowledge of the fact whether his house was in fact attacked or not? MR LESALE No Sir. MR VISSER And then, lastly ...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON Well, it wasn't a he was it, it was a she? MR VISSER One of them was a lady, it may have been ...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON Bolasha was a lady, she's now a teacher in Pretoria. MR VISSER Thank you Mr Chairman. Well I don't know whether that makes any difference to your answer Mr Lesale, it was a lady teacher. Did you know her? MR LESALE I don't know her. MR VISSER And lastly, at page 148 Mr Motsamai says that himself, Mamome, Mtyhala, Lesale, Miningwa and Ramosoeu - and I haven't spelt that one yet, I'll spell it, R-a-m-o-s-o-e-u, were involved in the attempted murder of one Oupa Makubalo who was the chairperson of COSAS. MR LESALE That's not correct. MR VISSER And he says he had been implicated in the murder of one of what he calls our informers, Kosi "and we fired several shots at him but missed" Do you know anything about this incident? MR LESALE Yes I know the day when we were going to arrest Mr Oupa Makubalo. MR VISSER Who were the persons according to your recollection who were present on that day when you went to arrest Oupa Makubalo. Were you present? MR LESALE I was present. MR VISSER Was Mr Motsamai present? MR LESALE He was present. MR VISSER Mr Mamome, he was present? MR LESALE He was present. MR VISSER Miningwa? MR LESALE I don't remember. MR VISSER Ramosoeu? MR LESALE I think he was present. MR VISSER And is it true that you all went with one vehicle? MR LESALE Yes it was a Kombi. MR VISSER And where did you go. MR LESALE It was in the afternoon just about, we were just about the knock off. We were in the kitchen, Motsamai arrived then he told us that the person who has killed his informer, he's in Botshabelo, he has met with his other informer then he informed him that. Then he is requesting our assistance to go and help him to arrest that person. MR VISSER And you then left and you went to Botshabelo, is that right? MR LESALE That is Botshabela. MR VISSER I'm sorry, Botshabela. And in your own words, tell the Committee as best you can remember, exactly what happened. MR LESALE We were driving in the main road called Moshweshwe, Motsamai was supposed to show us the street we were supposed to take. He showed us the street and then we saw a group of boys standing. Just when we approached, he chased this person and then he shot. MR VISSER Just stop there. Please when you refer to a person, please mention his name. Who was the one who chased? MR LESALE Motsamai got out of the car and he chased Oupa, I did not know his name all the time. Mamome got out of the car but I do not remember whether Ramosoeu and others got out of the car, Motsamai shot. MR VISSER He shot where, at whom? MR LESALE He was shooting in Oupa's direction. CHAIRPERSON What was Oupa doing? MR LESALE They were standing under a tree when we arrived in the Kombi. CHAIRPERSON And when he was shooting was he still standing under the tree? MR LESALE When the Kombi stopped Oupa ran away. MR VISSER So he was shot at while he was running away, is that what you're saying? MR LESALE That is correct, Sir. MR VISSER Can you remember today how many shots Mr Motsamai shot at in the direction of Oupa? MR LESALE I don't remember but it was several times. MR VISSER Did you fire any shots on that day? MR LESALE No. MR VISSER Did you see Mamome fire any shots on that day? MR LESALE No. MR VISSER Was Mamome running in the same direction as the direction in which Oupa Makubalo was running or was running in a different direction? MR LESALE He was running in - to his direction. MR VISSER And Oupa Makubalo was in fact arrested that day? MR LESALE That is correct. MR VISSER Those are the questions in evidence in chief, Mr Chairman. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VISSER CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR DU PLESSIS Have you ever met Mr Ngo personally? MR LESALE Yes, for about two months if not more than that, I do not remember well. MR DU PLESSIS Was that when Mr Ngo was still in Bloemfontein? MR LESALE He arrived whilst I was still working there and I was told that he's being recruited. MR DU PLESSIS Right, what I really want to know is after you had left Bloemfontein and had gone to Pretoria, did you ever speak to him then, after you had left Bloemfontein? MR LESALE No Sir. MR DU PLESSIS And during the time you spent at the security police can you remember any instance whatsoever where somebody else from another security branch from somewhere else in the country, was used in an operation by the security branch in Bloemfontein? MR LESALE No Sir. MR DU PLESSIS Thank you Mr Chairman. Sorry? MR LESALE I do not remember such an instance. MR DU PLESSIS Thank you Mr Chairman, I've no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR DU PLESSIS FURTHER EXAMINATION BY MR VISSER Mr Chairman before there's cross-examination, perhaps in view of a point that has come up which may give rise to confusion, may I just ask one further point. You told my learned friend, Mr du Plessis, that you knew Mr Ngo when you were told that he's being recruited, do you remember that? MR LESALE That's correct. MR VISSER Recruited as what? MR LESALE He was a student in the police. MR VISSER Student Constable? MR LESALE That's correct. MR VISSER Thank you Mr Chairman. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VISSER CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR STANDER Mr Lesale, I'm going to ask you questions concerning the arrest and the shooting incident with respect to Mr Oupa Makubalo. Tell me, did you have other people who went out together with Mr Motsamai? Did you also have firearms with yourselves. MR LESALE All the policemen from the security branch had guns. I remember on that day we also had guns but I do not remember checking as to whether all of us had guns. MR STANDER Did you also have a gun yourself? MR LESALE Yes. MR STANDER The security police did they always take these weapons with them when they went on a mission? MR LESALE What are you referring to when you say mission? MR STANDER For example when you went to arrest somebody. Did you always take your guns with you. Your weapons with you? MR LESALE You must carry your gun, it was regulation to have your gun when you go to arrest a person. MR STANDER And on this particular day, do you know if Sergeant Mamome had his weapon with him? MR LESALE I said I do not remember whether others had their guns or not, I did not look at them as to whether they had their guns. MR STANDER Wouldn't it have been strange Sir, because you were out on a mission. Wouldn't it have been rather strange that if Mamome didn't have his gun with him? CHAIRPERSON Isn't this pure argument? MR VISSER And may I place on record, Mr Mamome will not deny that he had his firearm with him Mr Chairman. MR LESALE It has never been my work to inspect whether policeman had a gun in his possession, What I know is that a person must have his gun. Whether he had his gun or not on that day I do not know. MR STANDER Mr Lesale has been told that Mr Mamome did have his weapon with him so it's not a problem. When Sergeant Mamome got out of the car after he got to Oupa Makubalo, did you see if he fired any shots in the direction of Makubalo? MR LESALE No, I do not remember. MR STANDER Did he not run after him also Sir? MR LESALE He was running after him. MR STANDER Do I understand you correctly, you stayed in the car? MR LESALE I was not inside the car, I was standing alongside the car. MR STANDER Why did you get out of the car? MR LESALE I was left behind with the car. MR STANDER Did you know where they were running to? MR LESALE They ran all over in that street, I do not know where they went to. MR STANDER Was only one shot fired or more than one shot? MR LESALE I do not remember how many times were shot, but the gun was firing. MR STANDER Whose weapon it was, can you say, who fired those shots? MR LESALE When I was still in the car, when I got out of the car I saw Motsamai shooting at Oupa's direction. MR STANDER Tell me, is Oupa Makubalo - was he arrested later on? MR LESALE Yes somebody came with him. MR STANDER When he came back to the vehicle what was his condition? MR LESALE He was walking with Mamome but he looked as if he was scared. MR STANDER Did it look as if he had been assaulted at all? MR LESALE No Sir. MR STANDER The people who got hold of him, were they angry with him. MR LESALE I did not realise whether they were angry or not. It did not come to my mind to check as to whether they were angry or not. MR STANDER Was Motsamai angry. MR LESALE Motsamai was deeply hurt because it was according to - he explained that Oupa killed his informer. MR STANDER Did he not hit him a few times in your presence, I'm talking about Motsamai? MR LESALE No Sir, I did not realise that. They arrived with him we got into the car, we drive off. MR STANDER Where did you take him to? MR LESALE We came to Fountains MR STANDER Was he assaulted in your presence there? MR LESALE No Sir. MR STANDER Were you in his presence for the whole time after you came back to Fountain? MR LESALE When we arrived I took a car and I drove off because it was already after 4 o'clock. MR STANDER So you didn't enter into the building with him? MR LESALE I went with them into the building, I took my briefcase, went downstairs and I left. MR STANDER So what further happened you don't know, do I understand you correctly? MR LESALE That's correct. MR STANDER It is my instructions to state to you Sir that you saw clearly how Oupa Makubalo was assaulted in your presence. MR LESALE That is not so Chairperson. MR STANDER Not only by Motsamai but also by Mamome? MR LESALE No Sir, that is not so. MR STANDER Also by other members present there? MR LESALE That is not so. MR STANDER I would like to put to you that it was highly unlikely that somebody who went out to arrest somebody else who had killed one of his informants and that when he got hold of him he did not give him a few smacks. What do you say to that? MR LESALE Sir, I told you that Motsamai was hurt. He might have done that but not in my presence. MR STANDER I have no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR STANDER CHAIRPERSON ...[inaudible] MR STANDER Mr Chairman it is true it is not mentioned in his affidavit, but you will remember in a previous occasion when he himself came to give evidence he said specifically it was part of his evidence which was presented. I have in any case no further questions. CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MEMANI Mr Lesale, do you know Warrant Officer Mbanjani? MR LESALE Yes Sir. MR MEMANI You also know he was stationed at Botshabelo? MR LESALE Yes Sir. MR MEMANI And so was Sergeant Smit? MR LESALE I not know Smit. MR MEMANI Do you know Warrant Officer van den Berg? MR LESALE Yes Sir. MR MEMANI And he was stationed at Botshabelo? MR LESALE Yes Sir. MR MEMANI And Ngo tells us that you were also stationed at Botshabelo. MR LESALE I have never worked in Botshabelo my entire life. MR MEMANI Now when you knew Ngo, you say you saw him for two or three months isn't it? MR LESALE That's correct. MR MEMANI You worked with him in fact. MR LESALE I was not working with him. MR MEMANI He worked at Fountains isn't it? MR LESALE That is correct. MR MEMANI You said at the time he was being recruited. MR LESALE He was a student constable at that time when I knew him. MR MEMANI He was being recruited into security branch. MR LESALE I said new him at the security branch within the security branch. I do not know where he was going to be recruited because he was already in. MR MEMANI So he was already a student constable attached to this security branch? MR LESALE That is correct Sir. MR MEMANI And he worked with other members of the security branch? MR LESALE That is correct. MR MEMANI Who did he with do you know? MR LESALE He was working in Lieutenant Shaw's section I used to see him in the company of Sergeant Mamome and Sergeant Motsamai even though I did not know his duties. MR MEMANI And Ngo has also told us that you were present on an occasion when certain students were arrested at Botshabelo. MR LESALE That is not so, Sir. MR MEMANI Do you recall any occasion when you arrested students at Botshabelo? MR LESALE I have never worked in Botshabelo, I have never arrested students in Botshabelo, I have never arrested anyone in Botshabelo. MR MEMANI There was no friction between yourself and Ngo? MR LESALE Up to this day there is no friction, we are still greeting each other. MR MEMANI And in actual fact you do not care whether he gets amnesty or not, All you want to do is clear your name, isn't it? MR LESALE I do not know why do you include me in the amnesty issues now because I - we are in good terms with Ngo, I still greet him, we talk outside, now how do you include me in this whole thing of amnesty? MR MEMANI What I'm saying to you is you do not wish that he does not get amnesty, all you want to do is to say that you are not involved in the things that he says you are involved in. MR LESALE Sir, there has never been a friction between myself and Ngo. There is nothing that I am fighting him against, now why involve me in the issue of amnesty. I'm not the person who decides whether one should get amnesty or not. MR MEMANI Do you know Ramosoeu? MR LESALE I know him Sir. MR MEMANI Do you know Tsomela? MR LESALE I know Mr Tsomela. MR MEMANI You are stationed at Botshabelo? MR LESALE That is correct. MR MEMANI And do you know Constable S. Khatlake. MR LESALE I do not know him Sir. MR VISSER Could that be spelt Mr Chairman, that's a name we don't know. MR MEMANI K-h-a-t-l-a-k-e. Do you know Sergeant Smit, you said you don't know him, previously. CHAIRPERSON ...[inaudible] MR LESALE K-h-a-t-l-a-k-e. MR MEMANI Do you know Constable Tulo? MR LESALE No Sir. MR MEMANI And Constable Samuel Sinyane? MR LESALE I do not know him. MR MEMANI Your rank around '86 was constable? MR LESALE That's correct. MR MEMANI Now, who has said that you participated in the assault of students who were detained at Botshabelo Police Station sometime around 1986, what is your comment? MR LESALE Sir, I say I've never worked in Botshabelo, I do not know those students. I've never been to them. Even here in Bloemfontein it was not my duty to arrest students. MR MEMANI Oupa Makubalo was a student isn't it? MR LESALE That is so. MR MEMANI And you were present when he was arrested isn't it? MR LESALE That is correct. MR MEMANI So you did in fact arrest students isn't it? MR LESALE I was not arresting the students. Motsamai arrived - let me explain this to you, he requested help and I was in the kitchen. He did not specify, he said to the men who were there: the men who killed my informer is at a certain place, I was told by my other informer, go help me arrest him. MR MEMANI If you had been given instructions to arrest students would you not have complied to the instruction? MR LESALE Who would give me such an instruction? MR MEMANI Persons in command. MR LESALE Sir, if - you're not talking of the section head or the commanding officer, if they give me an instruction I would go and carry it out and this person came asking for help. MR MEMANI And if you had been given instructions to go arrest at Botshabelo you would have gone obviously. MR LESALE Sir, if the instructions are from the commanding officer, what would I do if he says all the sections should take part, what would I really do, I must comply. MR MEMANI Now you've known about these proceedings for about six months isn't it? MR LESALE Which proceedings Sir. MR MEMANI About this hearing, for no less than six months now, isn't it. MR LESALE That is correct, even though I do not remember how many months, but if you're saying it's six months, well I know about this. MR MEMANI Now throughout, you knew that Ngo was alleging that you were working at Botshabelo isn't it? MR LESALE That is so. MR MEMANI And throughout that time you have not taken any steps to produce proof that you were working at a place other than Botshabelo? MR LESALE Sir, I have never worked to Botshabelo. When you cross the street just outside here, you are at the office where I work. They will take out the files, tell you when did I start working here. I have never worked in Botshabelo. MR MEMANI And you did for instance carry a pocket book isn't it? MR LESALE No Sir. MR MEMANI You've had duty sheets isn't it? MR LESALE What is a duty sheet, Sir? MR MEMANI I think you refer to it as a SAP15, if I'm not mistaken. MR LESALE No I've never seen that in the security branch, I know that it exists in the stations. MR MEMANI Isn't there some form of record of your movements daily or what you do daily? MR LESALE I did not have a pocket book so I did not record what I did yesterday and what I did the day thereafter. MR MEMANI Now have you ever heard of any activists house that was bombed in the township here? MR LESALE That's correct. MR MEMANI If I may take instructions Chairperson. Now I want us to deal with the incident involving Oupa. First of all you say that you were working with trade unions, isn't it? MR LESALE That is correct. MR MEMANI And you say you did not know Citi Mzuzwana? My instructions are that you knew Citi Mzuzwana. MR LESALE Sir, I knew Citi after a long time that I've been here in Bloemfontein. Jani Mohape was working with SAWU who was helping Mohape to organise, that's when I started knowing him. I think it was in 1988. MR MEMANI So at some stage you did come to know Citi Mzuzwana? MR LESALE That is correct. MR MEMANI And he was an organiser of SAWU? MR LESALE I knew him as the person who was helping Mr Jani Mohape, he was his assistant. MR MEMANI Now you told us that Motsamai told you that he had got the information about the whereabouts of the men who killed his informer. MR LESALE That is correct Sir. MR MEMANI Now you must be mistaken because it is Mamome who came and said that Motsamai or rather that the person who killed Kosi, had been seen somewhere. MR LESALE That is not true. MR MEMANI Now, we were told that Oupa was standing at the gate when you people first approached. MR LESALE If I remember well Sir, this man was standing at the tree with the others. I do not know whether he was standing at the gate but he standing at the tree with others. MR MEMANI You see, Oupa himself told us that he had been with a companion who left him at the gate and went to the shop and when you approached he was alone. MR LESALE That is not so. I'm telling you what I saw. MR MEMANI Now, you say that when you arrived there, the applicant, Mr Motsamai, started shooting? MR LESALE That is so Sir, he jumped out of the car, he chased this person, he was already running away. MR MEMANI Who was driving? MR LESALE I do not want to commit myself, I do not remember. MR MEMANI And where were you sitting in the vehicle? MR LESALE I was sitting the second seat starting from the back, that was the second seat from the back. MR MEMANI Now if this were a 10 seater it would be the middle seat? MR LESALE The second seat from the back. I do not know whether it was in the middle or what but it was the second seat from the back. MR MEMANI But how many rows of seats did this vehicle have? MR LESALE It was called a 16 seater, I found it here at security branch. MR MEMANI And where was Motsamai seated? MR LESALE He was sitting next to the sliding door. MR MEMANI And that was on the left hand side? MR LESALE Yes Sir. MR MEMANI And did you consult with your lawyers about this evidence about the incident involving Oupa? MR LESALE Yes Sir. MR MEMANI And were all the people who were present on the occasion when Oupa was shot present at the consultation? MR LESALE I was called alone by my lawyer. I was alone, I was not called with the others. MR MEMANI When were you called? MR LESALE It was last year. I went to Pretoria to meet with him. I do not remember the month. MR MEMANI Was that the same occasion as when the rest of the people went in a Kombi and you were called into the attorney's office one by one? MR LESALE I was driving with my car, I've never driven with people in the Kombi. MR MEMANI Now you told your lawyers at that stage that Motsamai was sitting on the left hand side next to the sliding door. MR LESALE I did not say that. MR MEMANI You didn't tell them? MR LESALE They did not ask me that. MR MEMANI Did they ask you who shot first? MR LESALE They did not ask me who shot first. They asked who shot not first, who shot. MR MEMANI And you told that Motsamai shot. MR LESALE That is correct. MR MEMANI What did you say that Oupa was at the stage when Motsamai shot? MR LESALE I do not remember whether they asked me that, I do not remember. MR MEMANI Did you describe the incident to them? MR LESALE I described the incident to them. I told them that we arrived at Botshabelo where we were helping Mr Motsamai to arrest the person he alleged that killed his informer and that man was arrested on that day. MR MEMANI Didn't they ask you how it came about that Motsamai started shooting? MR LESALE I don't remember if they did ask they asked. I do not know the contents of my statement but if that is so I must of told them that he shot because this man was running away. MR MEMANI Now Mr Lesale, did you - are you sure in your mind that it is Motsamai only who shot? MR LESALE That is correct Sir. MR MEMANI My instructions are that several people shot. MR LESALE I do not know that. MR MEMANI And you'll not dispute that several people shot? MR LESALE I do not know about other people who shot. I saw Mr Motsamai shooting. MR MEMANI How many times did he shoot? MR LESALE I explained that it was several times, I do not know how many times. MR MEMANI And where were you as he was shooting? MR LESALE I remained behind the Kombi. I got out of the Kombi and stood outside. MR MEMANI And where was Oupa when Motsamai was shooting at him? MR LESALE Sir, he was running next to the fences in the street. I last saw getting into the houses, but I saw them coming back with him later. MR MEMANI Now, did they catch him in the same street that he was running in when you first saw him? MR LESALE I don't know whether they caught him in the yards or in the next street I do not know, I just saw them appearing with him. MR MEMANI So at some stage they were out of your sight. MR LESALE That is correct. MR MEMANI So you cannot say that the others did not shoot? MR LESALE That is correct, I told you about the person I saw shooting, I won't say anything about the others. MR MEMANI And the others were also chasing, isn't it? MR LESALE That is correct. MR MEMANI And anyone who said that the person who shot first was sitting on the right hand side is definitely wrong? MR LESALE Can you please repeat that question, I do not understand it clearly. MR MEMANI Any person who says that the person who started shooting was sitting on the right hand side of the Kombi is definitely wrong? MR LESALE That is correct. Nobody shot whilst we were inside the car, I never saw a person shooting from inside the Kombi. MR MEMANI And yet that is what was put to witnesses, I think to the applicant himself. MR LESALE Who is the applicant Sir? MR MEMANI Mr Motsamai. MR LESALE I do not know it that way Sir. MR VISSER Can we perhaps be referred to the passage that my learned relying upon Mr Chairman. The incident is described in cross-examination at page 1003 and onwards in the record. I'm not disputing it, I would just like to know where the passage is. MR MEMANI Now, Mr Chairman, if he's not disputing it, why must we look at the record and be interrupted, I mean if he's not disputing it, we don't have any reason then to be looking at the record. CHAIRMAN He's not disputing as I understand because he hasn't checked the record that it is not there. But he does not recollect it, so he wants you to tell him if it is because he may dispute it. MR MEMANI I'm not relying on the record for this, I'm relying on my recollection of the evidence. CHAIRPERSON Are you now putting something to the witness that you say you remember having been said in the evidence about three months ago. MR MEMANI That is correct. CHAIRMAN And you're not relying, you haven't checked it in the record? Well I think you should be very careful, Mr Mamome and specifically putting to a witness that it was something was said if you are merely relying on your memory of months ago. MR MEMANI That I will do Chairperson. MR VISSER Mr Chairman, page 1005 appears to be the portion upon which this evidence is based, it appears that Mr Motsamai gave that evidence. Mr Chairman, I place it on record that up to page 1009 I certainly never put what has just been put to this witness to Mr Motsamai. MR MEMANI Mr Chairman I withdraw the question as I put it. Now, when Mr Motsamai started shooting did anyone stop Motsamai from shooting? MR LESALE No Sir. MR MEMANI Did any of you thereafter ask him why he was shooting at Oupa? MR LESALE No Sir I don't know, I didn't hear that. MR MEMANI And was Motsamai acting correctly by shooting at Oupa at that stage? MR LESALE Hi's feelings told him that he took the right step. MR MEMANI When you observed, was it the right thing to do for Motsamai to shoot at Oupa? MR LESALE You asking me a different question. I would not respond on behalf of his feelings. MR MEMANI I'm saying that you are a policeman and there is Motsamai starting to shoot a civilian, when you looked at him did you see he was acting properly as a policeman at the stage? MR LESALE He knew Oupa and if it was myself in his position I would not shoot at him because I would know where to find him. MR MEMANI Now why didn't you say: "Stop don't shoot this man, we'll catch him later"? MR LESALE Who am I to run after Motsamai shouting: "Stop shooting, stop shooting". It was even my first to hear of Oupa and I saw him when I brought him back to the car. Who am I really to run after Motsamai to tell him not to shoot? MR MEMANI Do you know any reason why no charges of attempted murder were led against Motsamai? MR LESALE What case are you talking about Sir? MR MEMANI I am saying to you, do you know if any - why charges of attempted murder were not laid against Motsamai? MR LESALE Not according to my knowledge, I do not know. MR MEMANI May I ask, what channel is Sotho on, because I don't think that the interpretation is correct. On what channel is Sotho? INTERPRETER Chairperson the Sotho is on channel 3. MR MEMANI Now I was saying do you know why there was no charge of attempted murder laid against Motsamai? MR LESALE I do not know Sir. MR MEMANI The answer is ...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON Was a charge of murder laid against Oupa? MR LESALE If I remember very well, it looks like he was charged for the murder of Motsamai's informer. I do not remember well. CHAIRPERSON And these shots were fired while he was trying to escape arrest running away from Motsamai? MR LESALE I do not know whether Oupa laid charges, I do not know. ADV DE JAGER But that's not an answer on what was asked from you, Listen to the question. Have you heard the Chairperson's question? MR LESALE Let the Chairperson repeat. MR MEMANI These shots were fired by Motsamai at somebody who was apparently seeking to escape from being arrested on the charge of murder. He was running away when he saw the police, Is that the position? MR LESALE Motsamai shot at Oupa while Oupa was running away, because when the Kombi stopped, he ran then he got out of the car, while Oupa was running he shot at him. MR MEMANI And do you know why Motsamai was not subjected to any disciplinary for this incident? CHAIRPERSON Can a junior police officer possibly answer that question, isn't that a decision taken at a higher ranking officers? This decision to prosecute is taken by the Attorney General isn't it? MR MEMANI Well Chairperson it's possible for a person to answer the question and say: "I know this is the reason or I do not know". What I can't put to him is that he should have known. MR LESALE I do not know why Motsamai was not charged, he would be in a position to tell. MR MEMANI Now, I put it to you that all of you, including Motsamai, chased Oupa and some of you shot at him and neither of you cared whether or not Oupa would die as a result. MR LESALE That is not correct Sir, I was not after Oupa Makubalo, I was remaining at the car and I did not shoot. MR MEMANI And that you were also present when he was assaulted after his arrest and ...[indistinct] on the assault on him. MR LESALE That is not correct Sir. MR MEMANI Mr Chairman I will withdraw the last part which says he participated in the assault, I'm not so sure now. Those are my questions Chairperson. Just one second Chairperson. Now, Mr Lesale at the time when you saw Ngo at the police station for about two to three months, he used to carry a gun. Do you remember that? MR LESALE I saw him at the offices of the security branch not in the police station. It is true I saw a pistol on his person, a small one. MR MEMANI And student constables were not allowed to carry firearms. MR LESALE Sir, myself, even before I went to Hammanskraal, I was not allowed to carry a gun or anything that can harm. I always worked under a person who is the senior, who has been to the college already. MR MEMANI And lastly, did you have differences with Motsamai? MR LESALE That is not so Sir, Motsamai is my friend, my big friend. His family, his children up to the day, we've never had problems. MR MEMANI No further questions Chairperson. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MEMANI CHAIRPERSON Mr Brink? MR BRINK No, thank you. NO QUESTIONS BY MR BRINK CHAIRPERSON Thank you. MR VISSER Mr Chairman I'm afraid I'm compelled to ask your indulgence to stand down for a short while to allow me to regroup. I did not realise we would go this quickly today I must apologise, just to see which witnesses are here and just get myself organised. It won't take long, ten minutes perhaps Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON ...[inaudible] MR VISSER Yes. You did say yesterday Mr Chairman that if we get a gap a little earlier on, you might consider that we could adjourn earlier. CHAIRPERSON ...[inaudible] MR VISSER That's what I want to check Mr Chairman. I don't think I've got a short witness here unfortunately. I will try to find a short witness unfortunately...... CHAIRPERSON ...[inaudible] MR VISSER I will try to find a short witness, if I can't I'll inform you Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON ...[inaudible] WITNESS EXCUSED COMMITTEE ADJOURNS ON RESUMPTION MR VISSER Mr Chairman, may it please you, the next witness which we present has filed an affidavit which is bound in bundle B at page 100. The witness Pekani Petrus Miningwa. PHIKANI PETRUS MININGWA (sworn states) MR VISSER Mr Miningwa, is your surname spelt M-i-n-i-n-g-w-a? MR MININGWA That is correct. MR VISSER And your christian names: P-h-i-k-a-n-i, Phikani, Petrus? MR MININGWA That is correct Sir. MR VISSER Is it correct that last year you became aware that you were being implicated by Mr Motsamai in certain alleged illegal acts? MR MININGWA That is correct Sir. MR VISSER Did you then sign this affidavit before Mr Wagener and is a copy of that affidavit before you now? I'm sorry that's not correctly put. Did you go and speak to the attorney Mr Wagener and make an affidavit of which a copy is before you now? MR MININGWA That is so Chairperson. MR VISSER Would you confirm the correctness and the truthfulness of the contents of that affidavit now in your evidence as well? MR MININGWA That is correct Sir. CHAIRPERSON ...[inaudible] MR VISSER 100 Mr Chairman. Thank you Mr Chairman. Now is it true that Mr Motsamai implicates you in two instances - and that would be paragraphs 6 and 14 at page 147 and 148 Mr Chairman of bundle A. To refresh your memory I will read to you what Mr Motsamai had said. He said: he, Mamome, Constable Lesale, Constable Miningwa petrol bombed the parental home of Citi Mzuzwana. Now is there any truth in this allegation? MR MININGWA No, I do not know such a thing. MR VISSER When did you join the police Mr Miningwa? MR MININGWA I joined the police in 1981 on the 21st January. MR VISSER And during - and did you join the security branch as well? MR MININGWA That is correct. MR VISSER And from what date was that? MR MININGWA When I left the college at Hammanskraal, I was sent to the security branch at Stellenbosch. I came back from Stellenbosch, that was in 1982 when I went to Stellenbosch from the college. Because of the weather that did not suit me in Stellenbosch I was transferred to Bloemfontein in 1983. On the 15th September and I started working at the special branch in Bloemfontein on 1st October 1983. MR VISSER Thank you. Now what section did you work in the security branch Mr Miningwa? MR MININGWA When I arrived in Bloemfontein, I worked with Mr Prinsloo, he is now a Colonel but at the time he was Warrant Officer. We were working with the trade unions and churches. MR VISSER And who was in that section together with you and Mr Prinsloo in the section of trade unions and churches? MR MININGWA I worked all by myself as a black man, I'm not including the whites. We were three when we started then at the end we were five. If I remember very well we went to fetch ...[indistinct] from De Wets Dorp, then we were two people and five white people. MR VISSER And who were the two black people, yourself and? MR MININGWA It was myself, he's Sergeant Lesale. MR VISSER What was your rank in 1986 or '85? MR MININGWA I was still a constable. MR VISSER Coming then to the next paragraph, paragraph 14, that paragraph relates to a day when you went together with some other persons to go and assist to arrest Oupa Makubalo. Can you remember that day? MR MININGWA Sir, I remember that day but I was personally not among that group. I did not drive with them. If I remember very well it was the time to knock off at work, it was at 4 o'clock I was using Mr Prinsloo's car when this group left to go and fetch Oupa Makubalo. I was supposed to drive with Mr Prinsloo to take him home to drop him off and come back with his car because we were supposed to work that night. MR VISSER So what your saying is you weren't present at all during that incident? MR MININGWA Not at all, I was not there Sir. MR VISSER Now Mr Ngo has also implicated you in regard to the group of people who were brought to Bloemfontein and in the bundle, Mr Chairman, page 30, bundle A of course page 30, third last name - it looks like number 11, it's a misspelt name but it can only refer to this witness, and Mr Ngo said that while these 19 people were detained and interrogated, members of the security branch who were organised - could you give me a moment, Mr Chairman, I'm not sure whether this is Bloemfontein or Botshabelo, ja it is Bloemfontein Mr Chairman, members of the security branch who were organised by Colonel Coetzee and Colonel Stevenson to beat up and torture these comrades were - and your name was then included, in other words it was suggested by Mr Ngo that you in fact beat up and tortured the comrades. Mr Chairman it corresponds with page 181 of the evidence of Mr Ngo where it is quite clear that this is the witness that is mentioned. Now, did you have anything to do with the comrades who were arrested by the South African Defence Force and transferred from Lady Brand to Bloemfontein? MR MININGWA Sir, I saw these children but I personally did not have anything to do with their interrogation. MR VISSER Did you assault any of them or did you see anybody assault them in your presence? MR MININGWA I did not even touch one of them because I was not involved in the interrogation and furthermore, I did not see any assault. MR VISSER What do you say if an allegation is made that you committed illegal or unlawful acts, if Mr Motsamai and Ngo say that, any illegal acts? MR LESALE Not at all Sir, I do not know anything about the alleged incidents before this commission, that is lie. MR VISSER Well there's just one other thing which has not been brought up in cross-examination. There has been a suggestion that your group of people who went up to Pretoria, were either unduly influenced or forced by Colonel Erasmus to go and see an attorney and that you were told what to say in your affidavits. MR MEMANI Mr Chairman, this is not entirely correct. CHAIRPERSON You say that this is not correct, they were not forced to go and see an attorney and told what to say in their affidavits or do you say it's not correct it was said? MR MEMANI Yes Chairperson. The evidence was not that people were unduly influenced or forced to say things they did not want to say, the evidence was that Mr Motsamai was tricked into a situation where he found himself being at Pretoria with an attorney. He had believed that they were going to do their own amnesties. However, when they arrived there, they saw an attorney who wanted, who he realised wanted them to speak with one voice. That attorney took them one by one into an office and inside that office, he was reading from a certain document and he would read from the document and seek confirmation of what he had read from the applicant, that is my recollection. MR VISSER Would you bear with me a moment, my attorney also has a different view about the matter from myself, Mr Chairman, may I just discuss it with him? CHAIRPERSON Is it necessary to raise it at this stage? MR VISSER Well Mr Chairman, I would just like to bring it to your attention because an issue had been made of it and no cross-examination has been directed in that regard and that's why I simply brought it to your attention. It's not for me really to raise it Mr Chairman, you're quite correct. MR MEMANI If I may remind my learned friend, it was him who was pursuing the matter when he was trying to show that Mr Motsamai had departed from what he had previously said. MR VISSER Well, in any event, my question was inappropriate because there were two groups that went up and Mr Miningwa was part of the second group which was not part of - when the allegation was made that Mr Motsamai signed the affidavit, so may I withdraw the whole question, Mr Chairman, I have no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VISSER CHAIRPERSON ...[inaudible] CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR STANDER Mr Miningwa, I understand that you and Oupa Makubalo on occasions were together at school? MR MININGWA That is correct. MR STANDER Will you agree with me that he knew you very well? MR MININGWA Yes. MR STANDER Was Oupa Makubalo part of the group of 19 that was arrested? MR MININGWA That is correct. MR STANDER Did you see him there as well? MR MININGWA I saw him. MR STANDER Did you have part in the questioning of this group. MR MININGWA That is not so Chairperson, I explained that I never had any association with them. I saw them but I did not take part in their interrogation, not at all. MR STANDER Where you present at the offices that day, I'm talking sort of throughout the day? MR MININGWA When these children arrived I did not see them. I saw them during teatime. It was about to 10 - it was between 9 and 10 o'clock because I was always early than anybody else. I had other things to do because I would start working at 6 o'clock to start working and when I go to tea at 9 o'clock, they were all assembled in the kitchen. Well I do not remember whether they were all in there but I remember seeing a group and I heard that this was a group of children who tried to skip the country to Lesotho. MR STANDER Do you know who questioned them that day? MR MININGWA I do not know Sir. MR STANDER Where is your office situated in Fountain Street? MR MININGWA If you listen to Mr Mbanjani's evidence when he said in 1986 he was working there, that is the kind of work I did from 1986. I was in the office that was occupied by Mr Mbanjani. MR STANDER Can you please answer the question, where was your office? MR MININGWA I think to bring a close to my answer, it is where Mr Mbanjani - when Mr Mbanjani was working in 1986, he had an office and that is the office I occupied. He demonstrated the distance yesterday. MR STANDER Could you just say where the office was? MR MININGWA It was on the 5th floor. MR STANDER Was your office that looked out on so called: "Violent Street"? MR MININGWA My door was not facing Violent Street, my office faced the main door when you enter the 5th floor. MR STANDER Were any of the people in that group in your office the day they were questioned? MR MININGWA Not at all Sir, even the members who worked at Fountain did not get into the office. MR STANDER Sir, the question is simple, were any of these people, any of this group of people questioned on that day, even though you say that you had no part in that? CHAIRPERSON ...[inaudible] not at all. MR VISSER And he asked Mr Chairman, with respect, whether they were interrogated in that office? CHAIRPERSON And the answer was: "not at all". MR STANDER All right Mr Chairman. Did you see any of these people during the day except for the time when you went to have tea like you told us? MR MININGWA If I remember well, at quarter to four I would leave, either go to the kitchen or go somewhere and I saw them and I heard that they had been taken to different places where they were being detained. MR STANDER Tell me, if some of them were assaulted to such an extent that they screamed, would you have heard that? MR MININGWA Sir, let me shortly explain. Our offices were a bit far and I was always in a noisy area putting earphones such as these ones on my ears and I would not be in the position to hear because I would be listening at the tapes and I used to write as I'm listening. MR STANDER In other words are you're saying that it's possible that there was a screaming but you could not hear that because of the earphones? MR MININGWA Yes Sir, I did not hear screams, if there were screams I did not hear them. MR STANDER Is it possible that there was screaming? MR MININGWA I do not know. MR STANDER Did you see some of these people later on that day again? MR MININGWA I told you Sir, I said I think I saw them at about quarter to four when it was prepared for them to leave. They were taken by other members who took them away, members of the security branch. MR STANDER Could you see any of them to ascertain whether or not they were assaulted on that day? MR MININGWA When I went to the kitchen they passed in a group, I did not look them in the face. I did not see as to whether they were attacked or not, I not even see bruises on their faces. MR STANDER Tell me, do you know a person by the name of Kwedi Kwedi? I'm going to spell this, K-w-e-d-i and again, K-w-e-d-i. MR LESALE This is my first time to hear of Kwedi Kwedi, maybe it's another name. If it is his real name, I do not know this name. MR STANDER You see, Sir, it's my instructions that you were not that passive that day as you try to insinuate here, you played an active role in the questioning and this Kwedi Kwedi was one of the people that you questioned and also assaulted on that day. MR MININGWA I do not know Kwedi Kwedi, I do not know Kwedi Kwedi. I never took part in the interrogation of these people. MR STANDER Tell me, the day - I am know moving on to the next incident of Oupa Makubalo, at what time do you say they came back to Fountain Street with him? MR MININGWA Sir, I did not go back to Fountain, it was time to go home. I went to Belisera Park to drop Mr Prinsloo then I left, I went to the township. I was knocking off, I was going home I did not go back to the office because that evening I was going to go back to work. That is the reason I went to Mr Prinsloo to drop him at home so that I can get the car to use it that evening. MR STANDER In other words you never saw them bringing back to Fountains Street that evening. MR STANDER You were also not with them when picked them up? MR MININGWA That is correct. MR STANDER But it is my instructions to put it to you that you were also one of the people who in fact went to pick him up? MR MININGWA I did not remember that. I am certain I am talking perfectly when I say I was not there when Makubalo was fetched. MR STANDER If you say you cannot remember that, are you uncertain or what do you mean? MR MININGWA Sir, let me put it in Afrikaans. I am positive I did not participate in the Makubalo incident. MR STANDER Did you see him at all afterwards, whether the next day or any day thereafter? MR MININGWA Because I was always confined to my workplace I would not say I did not see him. With regards to this incident, I do not remember whether I saw days thereafter. MR STANDER I have no further questions, thank you Mr Chairman. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR STANDER CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MEMANI Mr Miningwa, what were you doing just before Motsamai and others went to fetch Makubalo? MR MININGWA If I remember well, I had the left the office, I was in the kitchen, that's where we drink tea. You know after working we meet in the kitchen to have a cup of tea, we were standing in the kitchen just talking. MR MEMANI And what had you been doing just before you went for tea? MR MININGWA I was listening to the tapes. MR MEMANI And you listen to tapes every day of your life in the office isn't it. MR MININGWA It was my duty. MR MEMANI It was also usual that you should go - you had to come back to work at night isn't it? MR MININGWA Sometimes, it was not every day. MR MEMANI But it happened often? MR MININGWA Yes that's correct. MR MEMANI Now what makes you recall these things which form part of your routine so much today more than ten years after the incident? MR MININGWA I think if you are committed to your work, if that is your daily routine, I used to do that in the mornings and in the evenings. I would remember many incidents relating to that specific duty that I was doing. Some might even slip my mind but most I will remember. MR MEMANI You see, what surprises me is that on your version, nothing amiss happened about Oupa Makubalo that you know of and you had no interest in his arrest. MR MININGWA I did not have interest in Makubalo's arrest, he was not arrested alone. I did not have interest because I was not working with them. If I happened to work with them I would have had interest to listen to them, the reasons for them to be arrested, where they were, because I was not working with him I did not have interest. I heard from my colleagues what they did, that is the reason why I did not have interest to know about them. MR MEMANI And Mr Makubalo told us that he was detained at Fountains more than once. MR MININGWA That is correct. MR MEMANI And yet on this occasion which you had nothing to do with, you even recalled that it was just before four when he was arrested. MR MININGWA Sir, I remember well because I was in the kitchen when it was said that Makubalo would be fetched. CHAIRPERSON Who said this? MR MININGWA I don't want to rely on somebody's evidence but I do not remember well who came and talked about Makubalo because after that I just saw people standing up and going out. I do not remember personally who came and said that Makubalo must be fetched. MR MEMANI Now I'm told that Makubalo was fetched just before four and that you were present. MR MININGWA No Sir, I was not present when Makubalo was fetched. MR MEMANI And that when you returned with Makubalo to the police station it was well after four. MR MININGWA That is the reason I say to you it was the time to knock off because when they took different directions I got into the car with Mr Prinsloo to take him home. Their return with Makubalo to the police station, I was not there, I did not go back to the office. MR MEMANI Did you see any person actually leave the office to go and fetch Makubalo? MR MININGWA Repeat your question Sir. MR MEMANI Did you see any person actually leave the office to go and fetch Makubalo? MR MININGWA Members were in the kitchen, they went out, I do not know who got into the car but I don't want to say we were almost in the kitchen, I do not remember who went out because they got into the offices and then they left. I do not know among them who left to go and help about the fetching of Makubalo. MR MEMANI And can you dispute that it is Mamome who in fact came and said that he had got information about the whereabouts of Makubalo? MR MININGWA I would not dispute that, I said earlier that I don't want to rely on somebody else's evidence. I do not remember who came with that information that Makubalo is at a certain place and that he should be fetched, I do not remember who came out with that instruction. MR MEMANI Now, did you not hear screams - if I may just ask, you know I don't want to ask these questions if Mr Stander has asked them. Now on that day you say you couldn't hear because you had you earphones on. What time did you start working? CHAIRPERSON I think you should make it clear that you've gone to a different day now. You're just saying on that day and you've been talking about the day Oupa was fetched. MR MEMANI I'm indebted to His Lordship. Now Mr Miningwa, I want us to go to the 6th April 1986. That is the day when about 20 peoples were detained who had been attempting to skip the border. You told us that you did not hear screams because you were wearing earphones, headphones isn't it? MR MININGWA That is correct. MR MEMANI And tell me, what were you listening at? CHAIRPERSON Tapes, as he explained. MR MEMANI Well I meant what tapes were you listening at? MR MININGWA These are round tapes, you put them into the machine and you listen and while listening you write. You write what you think is important from the conversation you're listening. MR MEMANI What were the tapes about? MR MININGWA These were the trade union tapes. MR MEMANI Now I'm sure then that if you had to write important things you'd have to switch the tape off and give yourself time to make notes at various intervals. MR MININGWA That is correct. I have explained that if ever there was anything important I would stop the tape and write. Now most of the time there is nothing that is that important so you have to listen as it is rotating, well this is very important, you stop and you write. But most of the time it would be on your ears so and you are very careful so that you don't skip anything that is important to be written down. MR MEMANI And I'm sure that you're entitled to a tea break and a lunch break as well? MR MININGWA I told you. I answered that I saw these children at the time that I went for tea, I explained that. MR MEMANI And during your lunch hour? MR MININGWA I did not have lunch most of the times. MR MEMANI And I am sure that whilst you were busy listening to these tapes from time to time you had to communicate with some of your colleagues. MR MININGWA Not at all because they did not have access to this room. MR MEMANI Are you saying that you never go out to give reports to your superiors, to ask something of your colleagues about these things you are listening to? MR MININGWA At quarter to four I would take them to the immediate superior when we went for parades but most of the time you would come to ask: "Haven't you found anything important up to this far?" If I say: "No", he would leave and then I would carry on. If I say: "Yes", he takes what I give him and then he will go to the 4th floor to write down what I've given him. MR MEMANI Look, Mr Miningwa, I put it to you that on that day every member of the security branch had an interest in the people who were arrested. Every member of the security branch would have wanted to know whether there were any people who were within what I'll call his profile. MR MININGWA Sir, I told you that I was not working with the children, I was working with mothers and fathers, the workers, people of the trade unions. It was another different section responsible for the children, like Motsamai and Mamome among others. MR MEMANI You see Mr Miningwa, these people were not arrested or detained from the school, they were picked up at the border so at some stage you must not have known that they were just school children. MR MININGWA They were known. It was not the first time to be - they were not known the first time they were arrested, they were activists, they were school kids. When they wanted to skip the country, it was during the time of schooling, they were still in schools. MR MEMANI And I want to say to you that you are a human being, you would have been at least curious and wanted to know what was happening on that day when there were so many children, so many people arrested at a go on that day. MR MININGWA Sir, I heard during tea break and I explained I started working early on that day at about 6 to come and arrange my tapes, to put them in order. Now when they arrived at half past seven, the others, I did not go out, I sat down, listened to the tape. During tea time when I went for tea I saw them and I was told that they were trying to skip the country, they were arrested in Ladybrand. MR MEMANI At tea time at quarter to four that you saw them for the first time? CHAIRPERSON He has explained several times that it was at 10 in the morning when he went to tea, hasn't he? MR MEMANI I'm indebted to the chair. CHAIRPERSON How much longer are you going to be? MR MEMANI I'm also instructed that other members of the security branch were allowed to enter the room in which you listened to tapes. CHAIRPERSON How much longer are you going to be? MR MEMANI Oh, I thought I answered that Chairperson and I said I'm not going to be very long. CHAIRPERSON Very well carry on because people have made arrangements. MR MEMANI As the chair pleases. In that case Chairperson, it may be a convenient time. CHAIRPERSON You don't think you'll finish in the next five minutes? MR MEMANI Well I'm afraid to carry the burden of inconveniencing people. CHAIRPERSON Well carry on for five minutes. MR MEMANI As the chair pleases. Now Mr Miningwa, we also have been told that you were in the company of Mr Motsamai when Winnie Mandela's clinic was bombed. MR MININGWA I know nothing about that incident, I was not present. Let me say I do not know anything about this, I was not present. MR MEMANI And you were also present when the house of Citi Mzuzwana was bombed? MR MININGWA I started knowing about the bombing of Citi Mzuzwana's home when I saw the documents or the papers that were brought to me by my attorneys about the alleged activities by Motsamai. I never knew Mr Mzuzwana's home to be burnt. The house that I know that is was burnt it's Mzuzwana's house personally. I would tell you why I knew about this, I was working as a - with the trade unionist. Now each and every person's individual profile was supposed to be on date. Now the people whom we used, the informers, told me that Citi's house was burnt down. I wrote a report and my immediate superior, who was Prinsloo, said go and inspect how the house was burnt. It was a four roomed house and the big window was broken. The curtains, I remember very well, they were pink in colour, but you'd see they had smoke as if they were burnt. That is the reason why I knew about Citi's house, not his parents house. It's my first time to hear today that his parent's home was burnt. MR MEMANI And I'm instructed that you knew about both Mzuzwana's house and his parental home because in the one file, there was a sub-file, in Mzuzwana's file, there was a sub-file about his parental home. MR MININGWA I do not know, I did not read about it, it's my first time to hear it. I only know the incident I just told you, I know nothing about his parent's house. MR MEMANI Are you saying that you did not read Mzuzwana's file? MR MININGWA I'm explaining, I did not know. I told you I did not read about it, I did not find that incident. The incident that was noted there, was the one written by me when I reported in his file because he would write down and he'd put the copy in the file and then you have to make an entry: "On such a date Citi's house was burnt down", then you put it in the file, I did that entry. MR MEMANI Mr Chairman, it seems this is a convenient time. CHAIRPERSON Very well, we'll adjourn till 9H00 Monday morning. WITNESS EXCUSED COMMITTEE ADJOURNS